S01.E18: Something Wicked

[DittyDotDot]

Sam and Dean investigate a small town in Wisconsin where children are falling into comas for no apparent reason. The brothers discover that a witch is creeping into the bedrooms of the children and stealing their "life force." While battling the witch, Dean recalls a past mistake that almost cost Sam his life at the hands of the very same witch, an event which has fueled Dean's protectiveness over Sam and his blind obedience to his father.

[DittyDotDot]

I know this episode gets mixed reactions, but I put it to the top half of my S1 list. I generally have an aversion to flashbacks since I find them to be very poor storytelling devices and usually I don't like the color and/or murky treatment given to them. However, I think they work fairly well here and I do think it was about time they give us a bit more on their childhoods and upbringing. Also, I find this episode has me not disliking John as much. Granted, he's a total jerk in leaving his very young sons alone in a hotel room and heaps way too much on young Dean's shoulders, but I also see a man that is scared and trying to keep his family safe and doesn't have the tools or understanding to do it differently. At least he seems to care and be worried about them, which is more than I'd seen him do since the Pilot.

 

Mostly though, this is the episode I finally got where Dean was coming from concerning his dad.  When first watching S1, I couldn't really understand Dean's blindly following John's orders--I got that he admired him and thought of him as a hero, but I also saw that John was a self absorbed asshole that didn't deserve Dean's loyalty. And Dean didn't strike me as someone who put faith in much of anything unless earned, so why did John deserve it?  For me, the lesson Dean learns is not that he should never go against his father and/or to always protect Sam, but instead is that when someone gives you a job to do you should take it seriously and do it to the best of your ability. I also think this is when Dean learned that what they do is important and if you don't do the job right people die. Granted, Dean states it in Wendigo, but I guess, I just wasn't paying attention (or maybe I just didn't understand it without the context of this episode.)  Anyway, I really liked getting this little bit of insight.

 

I also think that Bob Singer does a solid job with directing and hitting the tone right. he did a good job with the transitions between past and present and this might be one of his visually-best episodes, IMO. It's been quite some time since I've been drawn to Singer's directional style and generally don't have very nice things to say about his episodes (lately it feels like he's just phoning it in and has become more like that fictionalized version of him from The French Mistake), so I wanted to make sure I gave him some credit here.

 

I'll end with, the legend of the week was mildly interesting, could have been flushed out a bit more though and I wish they'd applied that lesson they learned from Wendigo here--things are scarier when it's left up to our imagination.

 

ETA: I just learned a valuable lesson about doing your research BEFORE you post...Bob Singer did not direct this episode and I take back all the nice things I said about him. The credit should go to Whitney Ransick, who I have no idea is and never heard of before.

Edited June 25, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[7kstar]

I've always liked this one and the flashback is fine since I wanted to see some wee winchesters.

 

I also like that it shows being a normal teenager.  Sure Dad, I'll follow the rules and do what you want, blah blah blah and then seeing the consequences which is really harsher than he ever thought it could be.

 

I like how Sam gets Dean and starts to see in him a different light and I know how you can be surprised to discover something about someone you thought you knew every little detail. 

 

Yes it has some pacing issues, but I think that is normal for season 1.

 

I also like how Dean continues to show he can connect with kids if he wants to because he did have to take care of Sam.  He also can ignore them if he doesn't need to deal with them.

 

Just to me, a lot to love about this ep.

[Mcolleague]

I love this episode a lot. I started watching SPN in the middle of Season 1 airing, but didn't get into it until almost the end of Season 2, and this is an episode that really left an impression the first time I watched as a casual fan. This is the episode where we find out what an unreliable narrator Dean had been about John. JDM is such an appealing actor, he was never a moustache twirling villain, which gave the character a lot of complexity. I was totally taken in, totally bought that he was a loving father doing the best he could and deserving of Dean's hero worship. And then we get an actual glimpse of Dean and Sam's childhood, and just, what?! He left a nine year old in charge of a five year old for days while a child killing monster was on the loose, armed the nine year old with an expectation of violent confrontation, and then blamed him for failing, used the trauma to manipulate him into future obedience? Completely knocked John off the pedestal. I still remember the shock of this reveal. I thought about it for days after the episode aired. 

[mertensia]

I like this episode quite a bit. You see the Winchester life growing up on the road, being shown that Dean watched out for Sam and the shtriga was creepy.

However: I spend a lot of time yelling at the TV screen. Fitchburg (the cottect spelling) is nothing more that a teeny bedroom community town that has grown out to meet Madison, which has also grown out towards Fitchburg*. The kids would have gone to a Madison hospital- my guess would be UW-Madison Hospital- as there is no hospital in Fitchburg. They would have done better to make the town be Marshfield or Wausau or Merrill.

*I grew up in Madison and lived there til my mid 30s. I have been to Fitchburg!

[Aunty Sharon]

I didn't have children when i first watched this, but now I have a 5 year old, and the idea of leaving her alone for days with a younger sibling before the age of about 13, freaks me out so much.  John Winchester, you ass!  

[DittyDotDot]

To be fair, my siblings and I were left alone while my mother worked after my parents were divorced. I was 7 and my brother whose the oldest is 5 years older than me--we probably shouldn't have been--but It would not have been unusual for me or any of my friends to have been left alone at the ages depicted here. I remember taking off on my horse for all day rides by myself when I was 9ish, but I can't imagine allowing my 11-year-old niece to do this now. Granted, I'm a few years older than both Sam and Dean, but not by that much. I just think kids are being raised a bit differently now.

 

Think the travesty here isn't so much that they were left alone for large chunks of time, is the responsibility and guilt that John heaped on Dean. Even though my brother would have been 12, my oldest sister (who would have been 10) took on all the responsibility for me and my siblings, but my mother never put that on her or made her feel like it was her fault when something went wrong.

 

ETA: There was one time when my mother had to go out of town over night and we were at home without adult supervision--my grandparents lived five miles down the road, though--and she got stuck where she was at for a couple of days. It was a free wheeling and fun couple of days for me and my siblings...I don't recommend people do this though. My mother returned to every dish in the house dirty and my hair cut in a rather creative and uneven fashion.

Edited June 26, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

Granted, I'm a few years older than both Sam and Dean, but not by that much. I just think kids are being raised a bit differently now.

 

I was a kid in the 70's and I think things were very different then. In my family, my mom would go on trips to the convenient store and leave my sister in my care starting from when I was fairly young - around 6. She'd sometimes go to the grocery store, intending for it to be just 10 minutes, leaving my sister and I in the Volkswagen beetle for an hour or so in the parking lot (it was New England, so with the windows down it wasn't hot), listening to the radio (you could do that in Volkswagens then even with the car off and no keys in the ignition). Even when we went into stores with her, we'd usually be at the pizza counter while she grocery shopped or in the toy section while she bought material and yarn (she made a lot of our clothes when we were little). Nowadays, we would've been be hauled off for child endangerment, like that poor woman in Atlanta, I think it was, who wanted to give money to the Salvation Army without taking her child out in the rain and left her in her car seat within eyesight for a minute to give the money and someone turned her in (and they tried to take her baby away from her). I started babysitting multiple children (other people's), including babies (changing diapers, feeding, etc), by the time I turned 11 years old. (It was good money for a pre-teen). We just considered that normal.

 

So I agree with DittyDotDot, that the real neglect/abuse here was in John making Dean believe that this was all Dean's fault. Although the leaving for longer periods of time was not by any means good parenting either - quite the opposite - the real damage, in my opinion, was the psychological brow-beating.

[Julia]

I grew up in Greenwich Village in the late sixties-early seventies, and my brother (one year older) and I started walking just under half a mile to school by ourselves when I was in first grade. I still remember the mimeographed signs going up around the neighborhood when the first high-profile disappearance of a child going to school by himself took place. They never did find him. It was a different time.

[catrox14]

I agree that it wasn't so much the neglect as the look John leveled at Dean because he wasn't there. I've never really forgiven John for that. Poor Dean. It was such a withering look of contempt, anger and disappointment. I mean I remember it and I'm not even Dean! I felt it. I think that probably fucked him up as much as anything else.

[Mcolleague]

I was a child in the eighties/nineties, and I've been left alone at home too from time to time, but that's a fairly safe environment? Whereas Dean and Sam were deliberately taken into extremely dangerous situations, and then left alone. They ran out of food. They were holed up in one small room, and not allowed to leave for days at a time. It's not like all Dean had to do was supervise Sam, Dean was given an actual shotgun, and was expected to use it. It's not really comparable to any of our childhood experiences IMO, none of us were left alone with a firearm and an expectation that a murderer might show up, then blamed when we didn't successfully shoot the murderer to protect a younger sibling. That's just insanity. And John putting the responsibility of his mistakes on Dean, allowing Dean to associate disobedience with family members dying, an association he still held well into adulthood? Completely inexcusable. 

Edited June 26, 2014 by Mcolleague

[catrox14]

Texans might have something to say about being raised around guns. I think it's a right of passage to receive one on your first birthday. I keed!--ish :) But seriously, I'm no gun person but that doesn't bother me that much because a lot of American kids are raised around firearms and learn how to handle them at an early age. But being alone in sketchy motel rooms I find more troublesome.

[7kstar]

So I agree with DittyDotDot, that the real neglect/abuse here was in John making Dean believe that this was all Dean's fault. Although the leaving for longer periods of time was not by any means good parenting either - quite the opposite - the real damage, in my opinion, was the psychological brow-beating.

 

I started babysitting by age 8 or 9.  The irony to me, is my parents didn't think it was okay for my brother and sister to left alone at age 8 or 9.  Oh the joy of double standards.  So the issue of Dean being left alone with orders to call Jim if something went wrong didn't make me cringe.  I still wonder if John was actually using them as bait and watching the whole time.  Convenient how easily he showed up at the nick of time.

 

I really think the problem is the writers.  Being male and just plain not thinking.  This will really harm our character more than we want to.  They just thought about it putting Dean in line.  I think this is the entire problem with the series.  They don't think about what will people think about this.  Then they get surprised at the fan reaction.

 

Remember the upset that they thought that Krikpe meant to call Dean a dick in Yellow Fever? It surprised him. Why? He hadn't thought about any interpretation that would come into play.

 

It makes me have to work really hard and I have to think things like, he's thinking like a soldier not a dad.  Dean is so responsible he just doesn't realize how young he is.  Does it make John's actions better, NOPE...but I know the show didn't really ponder the message they were sending out and I enjoy JDM too much to totally hate John.  But was he father of the year....NEVER!

[DittyDotDot]

I was a child in the eighties/nineties, and I've been left alone at home too from time to time, but that's a fairly safe environment? Whereas Dean and Sam were deliberately taken into extremely dangerous situations, and then left alone. They ran out of food. They were holed up in one small room, and not allowed to leave for days at a time. It's not like all Dean had to do was supervise Sam, Dean was given an actual shotgun, and was expected to use it. It's not really comparable to any of our childhood experiences IMO, none of us were left alone with a firearm and an expectation that a murderer might show up, then blamed when we didn't successfully shoot the murderer to protect a younger sibling. That's just insanity.

 

I thought John left them in a different town than the one he was hunting in to keep them safe--that's why he was gone for days. I'm not sure that it was expected that a murderer would show up. I always thought the preparation work was only because John was so paranoid after Mary's death that he had them always expecting the worst, not because he expected the strega to show up there. And I didn't think they ran out of food, just Lucky Charms--If they were out of food then Dean shouldn't have tossed those Speghetti-Os so quickly (and good on Sam for not wanting to eat those nasty things anyway!).  I felt like John took care of the physical needs and kept them safe that way, it's the emotional ones that he massively failed on. Granted, he still doesn't win any father of the year awards from me, but I'm far more outraged by the emotional abuse rather than the neglect.

 

Granted Sam and Dean's childhood are rather extreme and well, fictional, but I wouldn't say that there are no experiences that are comparable.  Those times I was mentioned we were left home alone--we did have a shotgun and a couple other firearms in my mom's closet (remember I was 7 years old). I've always had a dislike of handling firearms, but we were taught at a young age how to handle them and they were a regular part of our young lives. Also, we lived on a farm in the middle of nowhere, so maybe it being home made it a "safe" place, but our nearest neighbor was over a mile away, so if something did happen we were left to our own devices to handle it, so I'm not sure that it was really all that safe especially when you consider we were farm kids and really good finding dangerous things to do.

 

I would also argue that if you remove today's standards of child rearing, I don't think all of it was necessarily destructive. I think that some of that neglect was actually productive in teaching them to fend for themselves and become the smart, responsible men they are now. I don't advocate neglecting children so they can learn life lessons the hard way, or anything, but some good things can also be taken away from a really crappy childhood also. If it wasn't for the way that John put all that emotional responsibility and blame on Dean, I probably wouldn't think their childhoods were such a travesty.

[Mcolleague]

I'm Canadian, and spent a lot of my childhood in England... and in both places it's much harder to access a gun, so the gun thing is definitely shocking to me. ;) Really? Children just get left alone with guns, even now? But... aren't there going to be accidents? Children are curious and destructive and not always sensible with their decisions! So dangerous! :O

 

Although I understand why legally neglect gets classified as child abuse IRL, I don't think it deserves harsh judgement in all cases, just the extent that John did it? Actually, even on the show, I don't think this aspect of it was condemned too harshly. Michael was also left alone to take care of his brother in this episode, but it comes across more like the mom doing the best she could, and that she was deserving of sympathy. In John's case, my problem was more with the child endangerment, the way Dean was given adult responsibilities beyond his ability, and how John withholds vital information. It's not so much Dean being around guns that bothers me (although I admit there's a raising of Canadian eyebrows about this too), but that there is a very real possibility that he would need to use it in defense of his and his brother's life. This level of expectation/responsibility is so heavy and so unfair. If Dean fails, his brother could die - but he is pretty much set up for failure because he's a child and simply incapable of doing better. Also, if John actually TOLD Dean that he couldn't leave Sam alone because there was a child-killing monster around, maybe Dean would have been more inclined to listen. If you interpret this episode as the boys being used as bait, it's even worse. I mean, I agree that experiencing adversity can be a source of resilience and strength, but I think the positive outcome of Dean and Sam becoming smart/responsible adults does not justify or excuse John's abuse. IMO he cannot take any credit at all for their successes, and deserves to be condemned for what he put his children through. 

 

I know it doesn't sound like it, but I actually really like the character. I think JDM is inherently very likable, which gives John this layer of complexity. It certainly messed with my expectations. Fascinating character. 

Edited June 27, 2014 by Mcolleague

[DittyDotDot]

Really? Children just get left alone with guns, even now? But... aren't there going to be accidents? Children are curious and destructive and not always sensible with their decisions! So dangerous! :O

 

Well, it's not as common now, but when I was a kid it was very common. Most people who have guns in their house and also have kids, lock up their firearms for safety. When I was a kid though, most of my friends' parents did not. We all took hunter's safety classes that taught you how to safely and responsibly use them. Keep in mind that this was a very rural area and most people hunted to feed their families--we were taught they're tools not toys. Kids were held to a higher standard and had more responsibility when I was a kid...that's the different time we were alluding to. Of course there were accidents, that's what taught people to start locking them up. I would never consider allowing my nieces to do half the things that was commonplace when I was growing up--seatbelts are a perfect example of this. I'm not saying that this should excuse John for all his poor parenting, just that when I judge these things, I try to remember and factor in the values of that time.

[rue721]

Whereas Dean and Sam were deliberately taken into extremely dangerous situations, and then left alone. They ran out of food. They were holed up in one small room, and not allowed to leave for days at a time. It's not like all Dean had to do was supervise Sam, Dean was given an actual shotgun, and was expected to use it. It's not really comparable to any of our childhood experiences IMO, none of us were left alone with a firearm and an expectation that a murderer might show up, then blamed when we didn't successfully shoot the murderer to protect a younger sibling. That's just insanity.

 

Sorry to be so incredibly late to the party!*

 

I'm curious about John as a character, because on the one hand, I do think that he definitely seemed to be doing his best in this episode (I thought he was very warm when he was saying goodbye to the boys, and liked that he had rundown what Dean was supposed to do over and over to the point that it was irritating), but on the other hand, why the hell was he leaving his two children alone to go hunt a child-killing monster?! Literally, I don't even understand where he was going? I agree with the "bait" idea, because the idea of him leaving his kids in a town that is being stalked by a child-killing monster, to go hunt down that monster, doesn't even make lazy-person sense. I mean, Dean and Sam knew to use the kid at the motel as their bait, they weren't going and rummaging up random kids for whatever reason. Why wasn't John thinking the same way back in the day? Imo it just made John look like an idiot. Since they were always talking about what a shockingly good hunter he was in the early days (wasn't it even in the pilot or another very early episode that everyone was all impressed with John's research skills?) it seems especially weird to me how ill-thought-out this plan to leave his kids in the motel was.

 

Anyway, about the kids being left in the motel altogether. Oddly, what I found appalling was that Dean just threw away that whole bowl of Spaghetti-Os. Who does that. Something that I find fun about these early episodes is that the guys are always needing to fund their lifestyle, so Dean is always trying to get money in these roundabout, petty ways (WHY DOES HE DO NO MECHANIC WORK they even travel around, he could be hunting up interesting car parts on all these travels and doing small builds/projects, which is pretty lucrative. I actually miss all his money-making schemes in general, though. But anyway). It felt kind of "off" to me that Dean suddenly is just throwing away bowls of perfectly good food (honestly, was shocked. And now I'm imagining that after John finally left off gently cradling Miraculously Saved Sam, he walked into the kitchen to get something to drink, and saw the trash filled with a bunch of uneaten Spaghetti-Os, and I can just hear him yelling, "Dean! Get it here!" LOL. I don't know why I find that funny, it just seems like such an ordinary thing to get into trouble for, and for that to come on the heels of also being in trouble for something as ridiculous as not shooting a monster to death as it sucks down your brother's life-force bwhahahah) and how the hell did Dean even get all these quarters to go play in the arcade for hours -- what food/motel/laundry/emergency fund did he riffle to get that? I know that seems really petty and like not even a real complaint, but I feel like the whole flashback idea was thoughtlessly put together in that same way, like none of the characters' decisions (John's plan, basically anything that Dean did) really made sense within their context.

 

I guess the thing that doesn't make sense to me is, on the one hand, John had pretty elaborate rules (that he was going over with Dean in the beginning, and seems to have had elaborate rules in general) and was putting an absurd amount of responsibility onto his kids, but then on the other hand, Dean was getting imo a bizarre amount of leeway, too. It was like John had put zero structure on what the kids were supposed to be doing with their time or in terms of chores or restrictions or anything? I found that strange to the point that it's distracting. I was also home alone after school every day at flashback!Dean's age, but I'm an only child and my parents were not big on structure, so I basically did whatever I felt like -- walked up to the 7-Eleven and salivated over the hot dogs, ran around with the other kids on the street, watched TV and ate Chef Boyardee raviolis, whatever. Even I would have gotten in major trouble if my mom had walked in and seen food lying in the trash can and all the laundry quarters missing because I'd gone to the arcade, let alone if I'd gone to the arcade alone after dark and stayed until closing, but fine. But my best friends growing up (across the street from me) had a strict father, and even though their sister babysat them every day after school (the babysitting sister was maybe 13, the younger sisters maybe 10, 8, and 4 at the time I'm remembering?), their lives were super structured even when their dad was not even around (he worked second or third shift at a hotel, and their mom worked very long shifts as a nurse, so the kids wouldn't necessarily see their parents for days). After school they had to do their homework first thing, they had specific chores they were assigned to do, dinner was going down on the table at a certain time so they had a very specific time they had to be back inside, that kind of thing. I would have imagined that John would have at least *somewhat* of similar structure for his kids, since he seemed like kind of a control freak (and also out of practicality, but he doesn't seem that practical)? But instead, he was apparently even more loosey-goosey than my parents, go figure?

 

Just seems like a strange characterization choice on the part of the show.

 

W/r/t the gun, I actually didn't find that strange. I mean, in my family that would have been strange, and I personally am afraid of guns and plan to never own any, it's not like I walk into houses expecting to see guns just randomly propped up in doorways. But in general, I wouldn't be shocked for a family to have a hunting gun like that relatively accessible and for a gradeschooler kid to know how to use it. I personally think it's dangerous, but it's not unrealistic for people to keep loaded guns around the house generally ime. An ex of mine even used to sleep with a loaded gun under his pillow before we moved in together, and when I freaked out at that idea (and this dude had nightmares! so dangerous) he still insisted on having that same loaded gun at ready access from where he slept in the bed (I didn't want guns in our apartment at all, this was not something I was happy about). That's pretty extreme, but I doubt that my ex is the only person that does that, either.

 

*I've found myself doing a rewatch for some reason. I guess after seeing the 200th episode, I wanted to go back and see how the show came together. Also, I'm very curious about John in particular, because I have a soft spot for him, but that seems to be unusual, so I'd like to go back and see what's gone on in his characterization and if I'm just mis-remembering him.

[DittyDotDot]

Literally, I don't even understand where he was going? I agree with the "bait" idea, because the idea of him leaving his kids in a town that is being stalked by a child-killing monster, to go hunt down that monster, doesn't even make lazy-person sense.

 

I've always been under the impression that John left the boys in some place close to where he was hunting, not the same town though. He'd be gone for days on end which made me think he would drop the boys somewhere he thought was out of the circle of harm and then would go hunt in the town where the monster was. I wouldn't put bait out of the range of possibility for John, but then wouldn't he have been keeping and eye on them so when the monster showed up he could kill it? Why'd he ask Dean what he happened, he should have known if he was using them as bait. Maybe he was just testing Dean to see if he'd tell him the truth, though? I always assumed the monster showed up there because he knew that John was hunting him and went after his kids as a "screw you." And John showing up when he did was just coincidence.

[catrox14]

I never had the impression that it was a screw you from the monster.  I think John used Sammy as bait and then projected his guilt onto Dean when the plan went to shit because because Dean was all of 9 years old and got distracted playing a video game. I think John had to be skulking about because it's an awfully big coincidence that he crashed through the door just when Sammy was about to be hurt and Dean was sort of frozen. 

[rue721]

He'd be gone for days on end which made me think he would drop the boys somewhere he thought was out of the circle of harm and then would go hunt in the town where the monster was. I wouldn't put bait out of the range of possibility for John, but then wouldn't he have been keeping and eye on them so when the monster showed up he could kill it?

 

The reason I think John using the kids as bait this time is a possibility, is because it was so weird that he showed up *right* when the monster did. All I can think is that he was waiting for it to feed before coming in to shoot it, because his timing was so dead on. Maybe he missed Dean leaving for the motel lobby/arcade because Dean left by the door, but John was meanwhile around back watching the bedroom window, since the shtriga's MO was to go in through the kids' bedroom windows?

 

If John had just tracking the shtriga elsewhere, and it found out that John was hunting it so it went out of its usual town in order to attack John's kids specifically, then I do think everything does make more sense -- except that John *still* popped in exactly when it was feeding and not any earlier, so even best case scenario I think he had to have seen the opportunity for Dean or himself to attack it while it was feeding on Sam, and exploited that by letting it get into the room before coming in himself*. I guess that would match up with the present-day storyline of the guys realizing that the shtriga would come back for the older brother, and seizing that opportunity to catch the shtirga while it was feeding on him? Though at least the guys asked the kid, reassured him, and were there in the apartment with him, watching for the shtirga before it arrived. John can't bear to let anyone else in on his plans, I guess?!

 

Anyway, it doesn't bother me that John took a second to scold Dean after he rescued Sam -- emotions were running high, Dean blabbed a confession before John even said anything much because he was obviously already feeling guilty, and John didn't exactly fly off the handle. Dean almost saw his little brother get murdered right in front of him, and didn't do anything to stop it and even John couldn't kill the monster -- I think the horrible situation itself knocked the bravado right out of him, not anything John said/didn't say. What I thought was actually crappier of John, in terms of parenting, was how disorganized and weird it was that the kids were just supposed to lock themselves in a room all day watching TV and eating random junk like Lucky Charms. How could either of them stay sane? And I guess I understand now why Dean became a walking encyclopedia of pop culture references and trivia and why Sam had amazing grades, because jeez they sure had some time to fill.

 

*I would ordinarily think that John would have called Dean first to let him know what the plan was, and would have gotten worried enough when Dean wouldn't have answered (because of being in the arcade) that he'd have come over to lay in wait in the room itself or at least wouldn't have been shocked by Dean saying he hadn't been in the room all evening. But John is so weird about communication. It was *by far* the strangest thing about "Home" imo that he didn't bother to drop by to have lunch with the guys or whatever. Why was he being so uncommunicative? I actually would have liked to see them all sit down for a meal anyway, it would have added something to *actually* meet John in the same episode as we kinda-sorta meet Mary. I still don't understand why he couldn't have bothered to pick up his phone all throughout the first season, though. (Possible S1 spoilers)

Why did he have to leave random pieces of paper with coordinates written on them and stuff, why not just call Dean up and be like, "go to this town, it's being stalked by XYZ monster"? Dean would just have said OK and gone off and done it. Even in retrospect it makes no sense. Bah. Did TPTB have some sort of plan in mind for why John was "missing" that they ended up dropping? They couldn't possibly have planned all along that the solution to the possible murder mystery was that John just doesn't check his voicemail or call people back?!

[catrox14]

Anyway, it doesn't bother me that John took a second to scold Dean after he rescued Sam -- emotions were running high, Dean blabbed a confession before John even said anything much because he was obviously already feeling guilty, and John didn't exactly fly off the handle. Dean almost saw his little brother get murdered right in front of him, and didn't do anything to stop it and even John couldn't kill the monster -- I think the horrible situati

John didn't merely scold Dean. He had contempt and rage that was barely controlled. He hugged Sammy and looked at Dean as though he did the literal worst thing ever. I'm sorry but Dean was 9 fucking years old. Gods forbid he froze. This entire thing was Johns fault. John is the only one that has responsibility for Sammy nearly being killed by the shrgita, not 9 year old Dean.

[rue721]

This entire thing was Johns fault. John is the only one that has responsibility for Sammy nearly being killed by the shrgita, not 9 year old Dean.

 

Kid!Dean didn't even need John to say or do anything, I don't think, he came to his own conclusions as to his culpability even before that. I think that's why he immediately owned up to not being in the apartment, and why he felt terrible and apparently (judging by his feelings/actions in the present day) swore to do better from then on. In his head I guess that meant following John's rules more closely, since John had come to the rescue. John did give Dean a nasty look after he'd run off the shrgita, but I don't think that anything John could have said or done to Dean at that moment was going to hold a candle compared to how Dean was already beating himself up, anyway.

 

Tbh, if John had been his usual blowhard self about it, that probably would have been better, because then Dean could have just taken his lumps and then moved on, instead of continuing to (apparently!) marinate in some regret-and-self-hate stew for 17 years about this random incident that probably neither John nor Sam even remembered. What's funny watching these early episodes is that the writers pretty clearly thought that Sam was the POV character and the audience's vehicle into the story (since him going back on the road was the beginning of the story/pilot in the first place) and that they had to do something to humanize Dean (which imo is why they made a point in the pilot to have him get up in Sam's face w/r/t Mary) so that the audience would be able to at least somewhat sympathize with him, too. But then they sort of overcompensated to the point that they flipped the script imo and it ended up feeling to where Dean actually seemed like really human and normal *except* for this frighteningly limitless obsession with his family. Rewatching now, I'm wondering if that was intentional (and coming to believe that it was).

 

I think part of the point of episodes like this is that Dean in particular is already in *deep.* Obviously Sam is in deep with this supernatural stuff, he had his gf murdered in front of him and is having psychic visions. But flashbacks like this kind of give the feeling of, even if you could get Dean out of this life, you can't get this life out of him at this point. I mean, maybe I'm just a weird person (could be!) but I watched Nightmare on the same night or maybe the night after, and hearing Dean say that Max was a lost cause, and "maybe if we'd gotten here twenty years ago," and then seeing an episode like this where it's like, OK, if Max was doomed to be dangerous or a killer (in Dean's POV) by the last twenty years of his life, then what about Dean, who was apparently in deep by the time he was a young kid, too? Personally, I'm a complete sap and don't think that people are "doomed" in general, but I'm talking about Dean's POV and also what story the show was trying to tell. I mean, the obvious set up is that Sam is dangerous because he's got these supernatural visions going on, and Max was dangerous because he had supernatural telekinesis, but maybe what makes a person dangerous or what dooms them isn't the supernatural stuff anyway, maybe it's actually the human stuff. That's where John's choices also come in, imo, as well as Dean's black-and-white rule that supernatural = evil, human = good.

 

Anyway, my cynical self agrees with those who think it most likely was a trap that John made for the shrgita and baited with his own kids, but regardless of whether that's supposed to be the plot, I doubt a little nine year old boy who hero-worships his dad is going to be that cynical or that the thought would even occur to him. What's interesting to me is the different shade that Dean's memories take on in the present day, if it's supposed to be clear or at least suspicious from an adult perspective (meaning, also present day Dean's perspective) that John wasn't on the up and up back then and that he'd engineered the situation to trap the shrgita. Alternatively, maybe Dean still has the same take on the situation as an adult as he had as a child, but the audience is becoming able to see the that Dean's version of John/their family is skewed or not how an outsider (including the audience, and maybe even including Sam) would see the situation.

[catrox14]

Kid!Dean didn't even need John to say or do anything, I don't think, he came to his own conclusions as to his culpability even before th

A nine year old cannot have culpability here. He doesn't have the competence to make this decision. I literally cannot believe John is getting any kind of pass and the blame being shifted onto Dean.

[Iguana]

With all due respect to everyone's personal experiences (I was babysitting for the neighbours when I was 10), there is an enormous difference between looking after your siblings for a day on occasion or being at home by yourself for a few hours at a time versus expecting a 9 year old to feed, wash, dress, put to bed and get up, entertain, care for boo boos, reassure, and guard his 5 year old brother all by himself for days at a time.  This type of 24/7 responsibility is hard enough for an adult to deal with, and it was unrealistic and cruel for John to put it on Dean.  And given the implications in the ep that this wasn't the first time he'd left Dean to look after Sam for an extended period, Dean was probably even younger when he was first expected to take over for his father.  At best, this was full on neglect by John.

 

While the show leaves it ambiguous, I suspect John was using Sam and Dean as bait for the Striga, since it could only be killed while feeding.  The timing of his arrival, just as the Striga is starting to feed on Sam, indicates  he was either following it as it headed towards the motel room, or had the room staked out, waiting for it to arrive.  And even it was just lucky timing, he still risked his children by leaving them alone near the hunting grounds of a monster he knew targeted victims exactly like his sons, and left Dean completely unaware of the potential danger they were in.

 

And of course Dean, being one to take burdens on himself even as a child, felt guilty, even though he shouldn't, even if John didn't say anything out loud and just gave him the condemning, contemptuous stare ("Dad never said anything, but I knew...").  John should have said something, about how everything was okay and it wasn't Dean's fault.  You know, the reassuring things any decent parent would say, instead of laying all sorts of silent blame on his kids shoulders.  Dean didn't fail to protect Sammy, John failed them both.

 

As for the guns, yes, eople keep loaded guns in their homes, sure, but they don't hand them to a 9 year old with instructions to use as needed for protection for himself and his little brother and then leave him alone to determine what needs to be shot at.  Any kid, and most adults, aren't infallible, don't have perfect judgment in a crisis, and can easily make mistakes about perceived threats and shoot someone they shouldn't.  Even though Dean was supposedly trained by John since he was 4 for this job (which itself is a questionable parenting choice at the very least), it was still insanely irresponsible for John to put him in this situation. 

 

John was an obsessed, selfish asshole, who continually put his desire to hunt above the needs, welfare and safety of his children.  There are many indications in other episodes that he drank too much and was sometimes physically abusive towards Dean, if not Sam.  As a parent, John sucked, big time.

[Julia]

Sorry if someone's already answered this and I didn't see it - I'm rewatching this episode, and I just noticed the young mother in the playground.

Does she turn out to be Hannah's host, or is it just the same actress?

Edited December 3, 2014 by CuriousParker
Added Spoiler Tags

[DittyDotDot]

It's the same actress, she also played a nurse in Faith if I recall properly. I don't know if they ever meant for her to be Hannah's vessel, I don't think they named her back in this episode, nor did we learn enough to know. But now that you got me thinking, I'm totally gonna wank it that way. I like it when things unexpectedly come together, even if I have force them to come together. ;)

Edited December 3, 2014 by CuriousParker
Added Spoiler Tags

[Binns]

John didn't merely scold Dean. He had contempt and rage that was barely controlled. He hugged Sammy and looked at Dean as though he did the literal worst thing ever. I'm sorry but Dean was 9 fucking years old. Gods forbid he froze. This entire thing was Johns fault. John is the only one that has responsibility for Sammy nearly being killed by the shrgita, not 9 year old Dean.

I completely agree with this. This is where I developed my disgust with John. What kind of father does this...uses his kids as bait (which is what I think he did), and when it goes south, lays the entirely of the blame on a child? No matter how fast Dean had to grow up (also because of John), he should not be held responsible.

Aside...I see Dean and Sam come by their layering naturally. John had two or three shirts on under his jacket.

Also....first deployment of the Sammy puppy dog eyes....he really wanted those Lucky Charms.

[GirlyGeek]

I won't go on and on re: John and his handling of YoungDean in this episode... plenty up thread that I both agree and disagree with.  The fact is, what is shown on screen (vs any fanwank I may be able to pull off in my head) is pretty bad for John.  And devastating for Dean.  Though the insight into Dean's devotion to his dad is helpful in understanding his character thus far.

I love John (and adore JDM as an actor), but even I have issues with the way he handled Dean in this episode.  I could hand wave a lot, but by the time we get to the last flash back scene of John hugging little Sam and the look he gives Dean... just makes no sense to me.  I see a little bit of self-loathing and guilt in John's look, where obviously he realized he messed up, but so much of it is directed at Dean, too and its too over the top for me.  

In fact, while I loved this episode the first time I watched it, on repeat viewings it becomes harder and harder for me to enjoy.  The anvils are crazy and a lot of the 'little brother' and sappy correlations between Dean/Sam and Michael/Asher are OTT for me.  I know they fall into this trap a lot through S1 and S2 especially, but Sam is not a little kid and sometimes the overprotective, 'protect the little brother Sammy at all costs' thing that Dean does is jarring.  Don't get me wrong, part of me loves it and eats it right up, lol, but it does get tiresome.  I guess it depends on my mood ;)

One thing I did love was seeing Dean's face in the hospital when he's on the phone with Sam and Sam reveals its the Doctor that is the MOTW.  Dean's barely contained rage is awesome and JA sells it.

[SueB]

On 6/11/2016 at 1:22 PM, GirlyGeek said:

One thing I did love was seeing Dean's face in the hospital when he's on the phone with Sam and Sam reveals its the Doctor that is the MOTW.  Dean's barely contained rage is awesome and JA sells it.

He DOES, doesn't he.  I picked up on that this time as well.  I noticed it before but this time is stuck out.  I also saw the self-recrimination that John transferred onto Dean. It was like Dean betrayed him (in John's mind) because Dean was not as grown up as he needed him to be.  John relied too much on Dean and in Dean's mind that makes it Dean's failure. But of course it's not.  Just whacked.  The whole thing.

Oh look... it's the actress who played the nurse from Faith.  Now she's unnamed Mom on a bench.....

On the episode as a whole:

WEECHESTER FEELS. I has them.  I liked the actor playing young Dean.  He's very much a "kid" while still showing that devotion to his Dad.  And it was clearly a life-changing event for Dean back at  Fort Douglas.  I'm glad Sammy picked up on that.  The witch was gross.  The elderly lady was funny. And the Doc needed to die.  So... all in all a good episode for me.  

Through S11 spoilers:

Spoiler

Jensen recently said he'd like a scene with John to address all of Dean's unresolved issues.  This is new, IMO, for Jensen to state this.  He used to be the staunchest John supporter on the cast IMO.  And now, I think his perspective may have changed.  Maybe it's Dean confronting Chuck. Maybe it's because Jensen is now a father. I just know that this is relatively new shift from "he did the best he could" to "I'd like to play that scene".  

[catrox14]

Warning: John Winchester rant ahead.
 

In which, I arrive at full loathing of John Winchester. No amount of JDM's great acting, handsome face and charm will make me ever like THIS John again. I would like to see JDM play John again at some point so Dean can rip him a new one. I'm not sure I even want John to apologize for destroying Dean's childhood because the damage is already done. My focus is on Dean because of how much he believed in John, idolized him and as of this defining moment of Dean's life, probably vowed to himself to never disappoint John again because IMO there is no way a 9 year old Dean didn't take that look John gave him as complete and utter disappointment and being ashamed and angry with young!Dean.

Sometimes I subscribe to the school of thought that John was projecting his own guilt and shame onto Dean in that moment and maybe that was partly true, but in my honest opinion, John also really did believe Dean screwed up. He gave Dean an order and Dean didn't follow that order and Sam was almost hurt because of it.  IMO John was angry with both himself and Dean but mostly Dean.  YMMV
 

Quote

 

JOHN:All right. You know the drill, Dean. Anybody calls, you don't pick up. If it's me, I'll ring once, then call back. You got that?
YOUNG DEAN: Mm-hmm. Only answer the phone unless it rings once first.
JOHN: Come on, dude, look alive. This stuff is important.
YOUNG DEAN: I know, it's just...we've gone over it like a million times and you know I'm not stupid.
JOHN: I know you're not, but it only takes one mistake, you got that?

JOHN continues gathering his things.

JOHN: All right, if I'm not back Sunday night...?
YOUNG DEAN: Call Pastor Jim.
JOHN:  Lock the doors, the windows, close the shades. Most important....
YOUNG DEAN: Watch out for Sammy.
They both look to SAMMY, sprawled on the couch watching cartoons on TV.
YOUNG DEAN: I know.
JOHN: All right. If something tries to bust in?
YOUNG DEAN:Shoot first, ask questions later.
JOHN: (taking his shoulder) That's my man.

 

 

This episode explains so much about the Dean in s1. The Dean who wears John's coat, listens to classic rock, drives the car that John gave him, "no chick flick moments". I'm sure some of Dean's manner is just him but I have to think much was John's influence because John clearly believed that protecting someone, shooting a gun and being a soldier was what it meant to be a man.

I had sympathy and compassion for John in the pilot. He watched his wife be murdered in a horrific fashion by something he doesn't understand. I can sympathize with his need for vengeance to a degree. I can sympathize with John making a fuckton of mistakes in raising the boys. I understand that he believed that he raised the boys as he did because he thought it was the best for them and was the only way he could protect them whilst on his mission of vengeance. I lost a good bit of that sympathy and compassion for John when he chose to ignore Dean when he was at his wit's end in Home and then shows up at the end, hiding from his children. I lost almost all of it when Dean was literally, actually dying from heart failure.  Like I said in the "Faith" thread, there is no excuse/reason other than death, dismemberment, or incapacitation for John to NOT communicate with either Sam or Dean in Faith.  I regained a smidge of sympathy for John in Shadow because he at least  showed kindness and tried to bury the hatchet with Sam.

But learning here that he likely used Sam as bait and left a 9 year old Dean to take care of and protect Sam for DAYS only to project all of his guilt, blame and shame onto his child, when his own fucked up scheme went sideways is just the end of the line for me with John. Even if John didn't use Sam as bait, he still fucked up by leaving the boys in that situation for that long.

Ode to John Winchester: 

Something Wicked
This Way Comes
Something Wicked
A man named John.
Dick.

-Catrox14

Edited June 15, 2016 by catrox14

[bettername2come]

This is such a great episode for Dean. Protects Children Dean, Guilty Dean, Big Brother Dean, Pragmatic Dean. Just so many of the things I love about the character in one episode. And I love this exchange:

Quote

 

Dean: Yeah well, first of all, I'm not going to open fire in a freakin' pediatrics ward. 
Sam: Good call.
Dean: Second, wouldn't have done any good, because the bastard's bullet proof unless he's chowing down on something. And third, I wasn't packing, which is probably a really good thing cause I probably would have just burned a clip in him on principle alone.

 

Pragmatic Dean and Righteous Anger Dean all rolled into one. I also like the scene where he drives the mom to the hospital just because there seems to be no ulterior motive to it. They already have access to the hospital information with the CDC records, Mom's already told them what's going on. He just seems to genuinely think this stressed out mom shouldn't be driving. I'm just such a sucker for the boys being polite and nice like regular goodhearted people.

I like the kid Michael in this one. I always like when the ordinary people step in to do the right thing and protect people, and I think he's one of the few examples I can remember of a child being the one to do it. And I just love that they're honest with the kid and let him make his own choice. And that the kid is smart enough to be initially distrustful.

Interesting idea upthread about John using the kids as bait, but I honestly don't believe that John would've used Sam as bait. I think if anything he would've used Dean as bait and told him, much like they did with Michael in the present day. Or at least shot the monster before Dean could grab a rifle and alert the monster to his presence. Even after everything, I still have some faith in John Winchester.

Edited May 8, 2017 by bettername2come

[The Companion]

On 6/25/2014 at 10:15 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I know this episode gets mixed reactions, but I put it to the top half of my S1 list. I generally have an aversion to flashbacks since I find them to be very poor storytelling devices and usually I don't like the color and/or murky treatment given to them. However, I think they work fairly well here and I do think it was about time they give us a bit more on their childhoods and upbringing. Also, I find this episode has me not disliking John as much. Granted, he's a total jerk in leaving his very young sons alone in a hotel room and heaps way too much on young Dean's shoulders, but I also see a man that is scared and trying to keep his family safe and doesn't have the tools or understanding to do it differently. At least he seems to care and be worried about them, which is more than I'd seen him do since the Pilot.

Mostly though, this is the episode I finally got where Dean was coming from concerning his dad.  When first watching S1, I couldn't really understand Dean's blindly following John's orders--I got that he admired him and thought of him as a hero, but I also saw that John was a self absorbed asshole that didn't deserve Dean's loyalty. And Dean didn't strike me as someone who put faith in much of anything unless earned, so why did John deserve it?  For me, the lesson Dean learns is not that he should never go against his father and/or to always protect Sam, but instead is that when someone gives you a job to do you should take it seriously and do it to the best of your ability. I also think this is when Dean learned that what they do is important and if you don't do the job right people die. Granted, Dean states it in Wendigo, but I guess, I just wasn't paying attention (or maybe I just didn't understand it without the context of this episode.)  Anyway, I really liked getting this little bit of insight.

I also think that Bob Singer does a solid job with directing and hitting the tone right. he did a good job with the transitions between past and present and this might be one of his visually-best episodes, IMO. It's been quite some time since I've been drawn to Singer's directional style and generally don't have very nice things to say about his episodes (lately it feels like he's just phoning it in and has become more like that fictionalized version of him from The French Mistake), so I wanted to make sure I gave him some credit here.

I'll end with, the legend of the week was mildly interesting, could have been flushed out a bit more though and I wish they'd applied that lesson they learned from Wendigo here--things are scarier when it's left up to our imagination.

ETA: I just learned a valuable lesson about doing your research BEFORE you post...Bob Singer did not direct this episode and I take back all the nice things I said about him. The credit should go to Whitney Ransick, who I have no idea is and never heard of before.

I think this sums it up well.

On 6/25/2014 at 6:41 PM, 7kstar said:

I've always liked this one and the flashback is fine since I wanted to see some wee winchesters.

I also like that it shows being a normal teenager.  Sure Dad, I'll follow the rules and do what you want, blah blah blah and then seeing the consequences which is really harsher than he ever thought it could be.

I like how Sam gets Dean and starts to see in him a different light and I know how you can be surprised to discover something about someone you thought you knew every little detail. 

Yes it has some pacing issues, but I think that is normal for season 1.

I also like how Dean continues to show he can connect with kids if he wants to because he did have to take care of Sam.  He also can ignore them if he doesn't need to deal with them.

Just to me, a lot to love about this ep.

It was a little sad to me. This tiny rebellion from this kid who gave up his lucky charms and he can't even have that. My heart broke a bit for both of them. Dean for the amount of pressure and expectation, Sam for his yearning for normalcy. We saw a glimpse of who they could have been.

On 6/25/2014 at 7:15 PM, Mcolleague said:

I love this episode a lot. I started watching SPN in the middle of Season 1 airing, but didn't get into it until almost the end of Season 2, and this is an episode that really left an impression the first time I watched as a casual fan. This is the episode where we find out what an unreliable narrator Dean had been about John. JDM is such an appealing actor, he was never a moustache twirling villain, which gave the character a lot of complexity. I was totally taken in, totally bought that he was a loving father doing the best he could and deserving of Dean's hero worship. And then we get an actual glimpse of Dean and Sam's childhood, and just, what?! He left a nine year old in charge of a five year old for days while a child killing monster was on the loose, armed the nine year old with an expectation of violent confrontation, and then blamed him for failing, used the trauma to manipulate him into future obedience? Completely knocked John off the pedestal. I still remember the shock of this reveal. I thought about it for days after the episode aired. 

I am still forming my opinion (and trying not to let my dislike of Negan color it) but this was pretty terrible. I have gotten the feeling throughout that his relationship was largely overshadowed by the hunt, but this brings it home. 

The MotW was pretty meh and the doctor reveal predictable (though I did love the fake out with the woman (who is receiving some pretty shitty care if she has been in her chair in the same place all day 😂. 

Also, the two queen jokes by the kid were super cringey and awful. As a kid who works in a motel, I would expect a lot fewer comments on who is checking in. Just saying.

[tessathereaper]

4 hours ago, The Companion said:

I also like that it shows being a normal teenager.  Sure Dad, I'll follow the rules and do what you want, blah blah blah and then seeing the consequences which is really harsher than he ever thought it could be.

I know you didn't say it, it was 7kstar but the thing is Dean wasn't a teenager, he was 9 year old boy being left alone for a WHOLE weekend, in a motel room, with full care of his younger brother.  Dean was a doing a job his own grown adult father, who was supposed to be doing it, couldn't even do, apparently.  And all he did was go across the parking lot to play a video game for a little while.  So is 9 year old Dean somehow supposed be able to do a better job than an adult who doesn't think anything of leaving his kids alone for days at a time? Dean was a kid, the shtriga went after kids, Dean was as much a potential target as Sam was.   Dean didn't fail at anything there, even though he felt like he did, Dean had succeeded far more than a kid his age should have been expected to.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

ut the thing is Dean wasn't a teenager, he was 9 year old boy being

I think he was more like 11.  I mean, your point is still valid, but I don't think he was 9.

6 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

So is 9 year old Dean somehow supposed be able to do a better job than an adult who doesn't think anything of leaving his kids alone for days at a time? Dean was a kid, the shtriga went after kids, Dean was as much a potential target as Sam was.   Dean didn't fail at anything there, even though he felt like he did, Dean had succeeded far more than a kid his age should have been expected to.

Also, even if he had followed John's instructions and not left the room, I think it's conceivable that he would have gone to sleep at some point in time.  John didn't tell him to stay awake all weekend (though I might not put it past him to do so).  And, I think it goes without saying that even if John did sometimes leave them alone to do so when he was hunting a monster that specifically targets children is particularly stupid.  

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I think he was more like 11.  I mean, your point is still valid, but I don't think he was 9.

Also, even if he had followed John's instructions and not left the room, I think it's conceivable that he would have gone to sleep at some point in time.  John didn't tell him to stay awake all weekend (though I might not put it past him to do so).  And, I think it goes without saying that even if John did sometimes leave them alone to do so when he was hunting a monster that specifically targets children is particularly stupid.  

The ages of the boys in the episode were canonically supposed to be 9 and 5 respectively.  

[Katy M]

22 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The ages of the boys in the episode were canonically supposed to be 9 and 5 respectively.  

But, Dean is 27 in this episode. He says he's 26 in the Pilot and it's gone well past his birthday. The last time we got a date was Scarecrow when it was the middle of April. And he said it was 16 or 17 years ago which put his age at 10 or 11.  There is nothing else in this episode, or any other referencing it, to give the age as 9.  Plus, he doesn't look 9.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Katy M

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

There is nothing else in this episode, or any other referencing it, to give the age as 9.  Plus, he doesn't look 9.

He looks more like 9 than Sammy looks (or acts) like 7.  (Especially if you compare him to 8-year-old Sammy in A Very SPN Xmas.)

Edited November 5, 2019 by ahrtee

[Katy M]

Just now, ahrtee said:

He looks more like 9 than Sammy looks (or acts) like 7. 

I'm actually more concerned about the dialogue, but in point of fact, Ridge Canipe was born in July '94, which would make him almost 12 in this episode, and Alex Ferris was born in April 97, which would make him almost 9.  So, I'm sticking with 11 and 6 or 7.

[Aeryn13]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, Dean is 27 in this episode. He says he's 26 in the Pilot and it's gone well past his birthday. The last time we got a date was Scarecrow when it was the middle of April. And he said it was 16 or 17 years ago which put his age at 10 or 11.  There is nothing else in this episode, or any other referencing it, to give the age as 9.  Plus, he doesn't look 9.

Back then we got script sides for the episodes for guest actors and this one had those for the kid actors and the script sides gave the ages of 9 and 5. 

As for not looking the ages, I thought it was way worse in the episode where Dean was in the home for the young boys and Adam Glass changed his age up from 14 to 16 despite 14 fitting way better with the story and the actor. Or Brock Kelly who looked close to 30 yet was supposed to be 18 years old.  

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm actually more concerned about the dialogue, but in point of fact, Ridge Canipe was born in July '94, which would make him almost 12 in this episode, and Alex Ferris was born in April 97, which would make him almost 9.  So, I'm sticking with 11 and 6 or 7.

Actor's "real" ages don't mean a thing.  After all, JDM is only 12 years older than Jensen.  Travis Aaron Wade was already about 40 when he was playing a 20-something.  And Young Sam in Bad Boys was supposed to be 12 but sure acted/looked a lot younger.

Edited November 5, 2019 by ahrtee

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Actor's "real" ages don't mean a thing.  After all, JDM is only 12 years older than Jensen.  Travis Aaron Wade was already about 40 when he was playing a 20-something.  And Young Sam in Bad Boys was supposed to be 12 but sure acted/looked a lot younger.

AGain, like I said, I'm mostly concerned with the dialogue, where Dean said it was 16 or 17 years ago.  There's literally nothing that happened on screen that said it was longer ago.

[Aeryn13]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

AGain, like I said, I'm mostly concerned with the dialogue, where Dean said it was 16 or 17 years ago.  There's literally nothing that happened on screen that said it was longer ago.

And the only age given before that was him saying he was 26 in the Pilot. Unless a birthday is specifically referenced onscreen, characters on TV shows somehow never age, despite the clear progression of time. So 9 works with a "17 years ago".

Besides, they have flubbed time way worse than that before.   

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

AGain, like I said, I'm mostly concerned with the dialogue, where Dean said it was 16 or 17 years ago.  There's literally nothing that happened on screen that said it was longer ago.

He was remembering back when he was 9 (or 11).  Do you remember exactly how many years ago something happened when you were that age?  Even today, I sometimes say something happened 10 or 15 years ago when it was more like 20 or 25, unless I can pin down either the exact year, a specific event (like 9/11) or my age.  (Actually, I can never remember how many years ago 9/11 happened unless I actually do the math.)  Maybe I'm slow.

If Dean had said "back when I was 9 or 10 (or 11 or 12)  or even "back when you were in kindergarten," I would be more likely to believe it.  

I tend to go by how young Sammy appeared--I really can't imagine that kid watching cartoons obliviously being just one year younger than the Sam who read John's journal at age 8.  

But in the long run, it doesn't matter. We can each have out own head canon (just like I don't really believe Dean had never kissed a girl by age 16, which they said in Bad Boys.)  

[tessathereaper]

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

But, Dean is 27 in this episode. He says he's 26 in the Pilot and it's gone well past his birthday. The last time we got a date was Scarecrow when it was the middle of April. And he said it was 16 or 17 years ago which put his age at 10 or 11.  There is nothing else in this episode, or any other referencing it, to give the age as 9.  Plus, he doesn't look 9.

It was a vague reference to time, not exact.  And the reason we know Dean was 9 is because it says Dean was 9 in the script sides for Something Wicked.  I just looked it up to make sure I was right about it being in the sides(wow was it hard to find, I really need to organize my back up drives better LOL).  Back in the day you used to be able to download script sides if you knew where to look and were so desperate for spoilers you'd pay $60 a year to have access to script sides.

And in the script sides for young Dean it had 7 pages of material, the opening of which was the opening flashback of John giving young Dean his instructions and it says: YOUNG DEAN, aged 9

So the flashbacks take place in 1988 sometimes after January 24th. 🙂

Edited November 6, 2019 by tessathereaper

[catrox14]

I don't see a material difference though between Dean being 9, 10, or 11.  He was a CHILD berated by his father for supposedly failing to protect his brother who was an even younger child.  John is a POS for what he put Dean through in this episode. 

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

nd the reason we know Dean was 9 is because it says Dean was 9 in the script sides for Something Wicked. 

If people think he was 9, that's fine. But, the script sides didn't happen on screen, so they don't count as "information."  but, that's fine.  It's definitely not anything worth arguing about.