S02.E02: Vaulter

[scrb]

Quote

Roman and Kendall do a "routine health check" of a new media brand to help Vaulter determine the future of the company; Tom tasks Greg with sniffing out waste at ATN; Connor and Willa host a soiree to mark their return to New York.

You knew Kendall and Lawrence's shit-talking each other was going to end like this, Kendall spiking it on Lawrence.  He may be walking around in a daze after the events in England -- or is it coke haze? -- but he can still run laps around Roman when it comes to business.

It's not an accident that it played out like this.  Ken was willing to kill Vaulter, which was his baby, to ditch his co-COO brother behind and move up the power rankings for the Roy siblings.

Just as, he wasn't being generous by giving Greg the apt.  He wanted a party pad for himself and wanted Greg to fetch him drugs and pussy.

At least Kendall isn't taking Greg's ideas and taking credit for them like Tom is, with the digitization idea.  It was funny when the ATN broad was telling Tom that she doesn't take ideas from latte-sipping douchebags with $100 haircuts and looking straight at him holding a cup.

Meanwhile, Shiv decided fake Bernie Sanders' offer of Chief of Staff wasn't enticing enough so she quit/was fired so that she could enter the Waystar management training program.  

Of course we're going to find out that Logan lured her to break ties with Gil, that he isn't quite ready to name her his successor.

Connor coming to NY to launch his candidacy for president should generate some funny plots.  Wonder if we'll see one of Willa's plays.

How about that dinner party?  Tabitha suggesting to Tom to swallow.  Tom was meekly polite at that trolling.  It may not be too long before Shiv steps out again on him, even though she did just dump both Gil and Nate.

[Jets4274]

I also think Ken killing Vaulter also had something to do with him being told that no one liked him there, which made firing them that much easier.

[terrymct]

8 hours ago, scrb said:

Meanwhile, Shiv decided fake Bernie Sanders' offer of Chief of Staff wasn't enticing enough so she quit/was fired so that she could enter the Waystar management training program.  

Of course we're going to find out that Logan lured her to break ties with Gil, that he isn't quite ready to name her his successor.

Connor coming to NY to launch his candidacy for president should generate some funny plots.  Wonder if we'll see one of Willa's plays.

I'm still undecided about the Shiv storyline.  It's very likely that you're right, that Logan is pushing this to get her to break her tied to Gil.   But....she is the most capable of the kids.   I kind of see her swinging back and forth between competency and some truly Rom level meanness.  Her worse enemy is her own ego.  It often seems to blind her.   Old Tom should be getting some clear messages here lately.  His roll is to worship her, maybe do a bit of work for the family as the worshiping schedule allows.   He's not going to be the head of the organization, probably not of any of the major subunits, either.    He can't leave her, though, because she's his access to money and whatever power the family is willing to give him.  I also think in the long term he'll be there to be the fall guy, catch whatever blame so a family member can skate clear.

Connor's idea of running for president is a big old Chekhov's Gun laying on the table.  He's said it several times.  It's not going away.  At some point its going to impact what Logan and/or Shiv are doing.

[RealReality]

5 hours ago, Jets4274 said:

I also think Ken killing Vaulter also had something to do with him being told that no one liked him there, which made firing them that much easier.

It couldn't have hurt, but when I heard "my dad told me to do it" it sounded a lot like "my dad's plan was better"

Kendall has always been a little tightly wound but I feel like he is going to end up joining a fight club or something.

I knew Logan was gonna do shiv like that.  As smart as she is, she will never realize that logan is never going to willingly give up his power.  

Kendalls takedown of vaulter was masterful.  I absolutely did not see that coming.  Rome better hope like hell that getting rid of vaulter turns out to be a good idea.  

[Eyes High]

57 minutes ago, terrymct said:

I'm still undecided about the Shiv storyline.  It's very likely that you're right, that Logan is pushing this to get her to break her tied to Gil.   But....she is the most capable of the kids.  

Tom actually gave Shiv excellent advice about playing both sides. His warning that there's a chance that Logan would do the same thing to Shiv that he did to Kendall could be foreshadowing.

The demise of Vaulter seemed inspired by the end of Gawker, although the circumstances were different.

[CouchTater]

Can someone remind me where the very strong disdain from Shiv to Nate is coming from?  I've watched all episodes several times, and paid close attention to the first episode where I noticed the tension between the two.  I believe it was after Shiv brokered a deal between Gil and Logan, without telling Nate.  Nate interrogated her about it, and she verbally tore him a new one.

The shift was abrupt.  What did I miss?

[CouchTater]

I forgot to add, I really love this show.  But wow, this episode was dark.  Oof.  I loved the episode, but didn't enjoy it.  My random high (low?) lights:

Kendall was a zombie for the majority of the episode.  Until he ripped off Vaulter's head in the twist that I did not see coming.

Tabitha reminded Tom of his...swallow.  I wonder what that will lead to.

Marcia did not look happy when Logan ordered her to go unplug Alexa.  LOL

I don't know what Logan has in store for Shiv, but I don't think it's going to end well for her.

Connor gearing up for his presidential run.  

Shiv casually offering sanitizer to Gil after he shook the prole's hand (her word, not mine).  Wow.

And more that I'm forgetting right now.

Edited August 19, 2019 by CouchTater

[BC4ME]

I'm not going to comment on much partially because I'm not smart enough to follow the shrewd business stuff well enough. 

Shiv and Tom caught my attention. I felt a little sorry for Tom at the end of last season, seemingly willing to take whatever Shiv would give him, however little. This episode drove home what a dick he actually is and how much he's using her too. I can certainly see how he would have a reason to stay with her to further his ambitions but I'm not getting as strong of a reason for why she would stay with him. He doesn't seem to have as much to offer, especially since she doesn't really even seem to love him. I understand there are some reasons just not as good as the other way around.

I mean, they're all users obviously, and deceit, especially involving family members is what the show is about. I just keep trying to keep a running tab on what the motives are in all of the relationships and don't see the Shiv/Tom ones as equal. It's an interesting show in that there is some love/duty that comes into play sometimes but I don't really see that with Shiv and Tom on her part.    

[scrb]

1 hour ago, CouchTater said:

Can someone remind me where the very strong disdain from Shiv to Nate is coming from?  I've watched all episodes several times, and paid close attention to the first episode where I noticed the tension between the two.  I believe it was after Shiv brokered a deal between Gil and Logan, without telling Nate.  Nate interrogated her about it, and she verbally tore him a new one.

The shift was abrupt.  What did I miss?

Yeah maybe Shiv's interest in Nate was more about joining Gil's campaign and now that she's more interested in the family business, she didn't have to be in politics or Nate any more?

There was a time in season 1 when Shiv seemed to be creeped out by Tom.  

She mocked him for the farmer's walk and his suits and then at the dinner party he told her to fuck off.  Shiv probably likes that to some extent.

Logan accused her of settling for a man who's way beneath her but then at the wedding said he's" a good man, he's a good man."

Since they have an understanding, Shiv will probably find some other guy at some point.

[BlackberryJam]

I loved Kendall taking down Vaulter. He was absolutely brutal and didn’t give a fuck. His emotionless handling of it was perfect. Also, didn’t the Vaulter guy screw him with the no confidence vote last season?

Logan is so fucking over Shiv, but lying to Tom and her prole comment made me not care.

Roman is being set up for a hard, hard fall.

I’m feeling like Logan actually respects Kendall for the takeover play, but is using the car accident to keep him loyal and in the dog house until Logan decides to fuck over Shiv and Roman because he knows Kendall is best for the job.

Marcia was pissed.

Also Connor is an idiot and I appreciate that.

ETA: I think Shiv does care about Tom, although I wouldn’t. She wants a man she can control, but who will also scheme with her.

Edited August 19, 2019 by BlackberryJam

[tennisgurl]

Tom might be a shit, but he actually gave Shiv some good advice when he told her that Logan could possibly be playing her, dangling this future in front of her to keep her in line with no real plan to actually give her the company. I can totally see that happening. Of course, Shiv probably is one of the more competent kids, so maybe he does see some real potential in her, or maybe its both? 

Kendall closing down Vaulter like a zombie was a quick way to get back in dads good graces. He might be dead behind the eyes now, compared to still jumpy Roman, but Kendall still knows business more than any of the kids, and will run rings around Roman  when it comes to real business savvy. 

Roman is being set up for a real fall, but then so is Shiv. Shiv might be competent, but her ego is massive and I think that could be her downfall. 

Connor and his presidential bid seems like it will lead to lots of comedy plots, until it comes back to really affect Logan or the family in a big way down the line.

Marie was pissed when Logan told her to take a hike when he and Shiv were talking, and that might come back and bit them in the ass, I wouldn't underestimate her. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by tennisgurl

[meira.hand]

What was the end of the last scene about? Kendall stealing the packet of batteries and throwing them in the trash.

[BlackberryJam]

I thought Kendall’s foray into meaningless shoplifting was another sign of his mental decline. He’s back to drugs and meaningless sex, why not throw in some kleptomania?

ETA: Kendall was ...good in having the birthday at the park for his daughter. He was such a dick in S1 and I feel for him now.

Edited August 19, 2019 by BlackberryJam

[Eyes High]

16 minutes ago, scrb said:

She mocked him for the farmer's walk and his suits and then at the dinner party he told her to fuck off.  Shiv probably likes that to some extent.

If Tom really wanted Shiv's undying adoration, all he would need to do is treat her like Logan treats her. 

16 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Roman is being set up for a hard, hard fall.

He deserves it. He cannot conceive of Shiv as a possible rival, and he's a truly repulsive character even by this show's standards.

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I’m feeling like Logan actually respects Kendall for the takeover play, but is using the car accident to keep him loyal and in the dog house until Logan decides to fuck over Shiv and Roman because he knows Kendall is best for the job.

I'm increasingly doubtful Logan intends to hand over to anyone.

Quote

Also Connor is an idiot and I appreciate that.

It's kind of refreshing to have a character who's exceedingly knowledgeable and well read while also being a complete idiot. History nerd moron representation on screen, at last!

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Tom might be a shit, but he actually have Shiv some good advice when he told her that Logan could possibly be playing her, dangling this future in front of her to keep her in line with no real plan to actually give her the company. 

That was probably the smartest thing Tom has ever said, and it's not a good sign that Shiv agreed this was good advice and then immediately threw her lot in with Logan by picking a fight with Gil.

Quote

Kendall closing down Vaulter like a zombie was a quick way to get back in dads good graces. He might be dead behind the eyes now, compared to still jumpy Roman, but Kendall still knows business more than any of the kids, and will run rings around Roman  when it comes to real business savvy. 

Kendall's actually a pretty good businessman with his soul out of the way.

[RealReality]

9 minutes ago, meira.hand said:

What was the end of the last scene about? Kendall stealing the packet of batteries and throwing them in the trash.

7 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I thought Kendall’s foray into meaningless shoplifting was another sign of his mental decline. He’s back to drugs and meaningless sex, why not throw in some kleptomania?

ETA: Kendall was ...good in having the birthday at the park for his daughter. He was such a dick in S1 and I feel for him now.

I think this is it.  So much pressure and guilt and anger and fear is building up and kendall is like a volcano.  The little things, like meaningless shoplifting are like little fissure earthquakes to let off pressure....but they aren't letting out enough pressure and I wonder if Kendall isn't going to have to do something big.

He was not ready to leave that fancy rehab/spa.

2 hours ago, CouchTater said:

I forgot to add, I really love this show.  But wow, this episode was dark.  Oof.  I loved the episode, but didn't enjoy it.  My random high (low?) lights:

Kendall was a zombie for the majority of the episode.  Until he ripped off Vaulter's head in the twist that I did not see coming.

Tabitha reminded Tom of his...swallow.  I wonder what that will lead to.

Marcia did not look happy when Logan ordered her to go unplug Alexa.  LOL

I don't know what Logan has in store for Shiv, but I don't think it's going to end well for her.

Connor gearing up for his presidential run.  

Shiv casually offering sanitizer to Gil after he shook the prole's hand (her word, not mine).  Wow.

And more that I'm forgetting right now.

What was the swallow comment about?  I had a feeling it was about something but I wasn't sure what....shivs cheating? 

[BlackberryJam]

At Tom’s bachelor party, Tabitha gave him a snowball, where you give a guy a blowjob, then kiss him afterwards, having him swallow his own semen. 

...you asked.

[RealReality]

21 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Tom might be a shit, but he actually have Shiv some good advice when he told her that Logan could possibly be playing her, dangling this future in front of her to keep her in line with no real plan to actually give her the company. I can totally see that happening. Of course, Shiv probably is one of the more competent kids, so maybe he does see some real potential in her, or maybe its both? 

Kendall closing down Vaulter like a zombie was a quick way to get back in dads good graces. He might be dead behind the eyes now, compared to still jumpy Roman, but Kendall still knows business more than any of the kids, and will run rings around Roman  when it comes to real business savvy. 

Roman is being set up for a real fall, but then so is Shiv. Shiv might be competent, but her ego is massive and I think that could be her downfall. 

Connor and his presidential bid seems like it will lead to lots of comedy plots, until it comes back to really affect Logan or the family in a big way down the line.

Marie was pissed when Logan told her to take a hike when he and Shiv were talking, and that might come back and bit them in the ass, I wouldn't underestimate her. 

I am here for Connors presidential campaign hijinx, but I don't want him winning anything.

I feel like it would make sense for Romans fall to be vaulter related.  I guess if one of the divisions they sold off did really well or if the market reacted badly to them shutting down vaulter. 

This is the one time roman has made a suggestion and it was taken seriously enough that Logan chose his advice over the direct opposite advice given by Kendall. 

You could see that roman was second guessing himself after shiv said something and his method of getting staff drunk and solely trusting your gut may work in 80s movies but in reality I think the information and the numbers are important and roman doesn't have the patience for all that.

5 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

At Tom’s bachelor party, Tabitha gave him a snowball, where you give a guy a blowjob, then kiss him afterwards, having him swallow his own semen. 

...you asked.

Yes...yes I did.  🤮

[tennisgurl]

24 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

t's kind of refreshing to have a character who's exceedingly knowledgeable and well read while also being a complete idiot. History nerd moron representation on screen, at last!

The bit where Connor threw out some random WWI fact like it was common knowledge, only to get blank stares from Greg and Willa, was hilarious. And then Greg trying to cover it by acting like he totally knew what he was talking about. 

Its funny that the family makes fun of Connor for dating an escort, when almost all of their relationships are rather transnational in nature. Its most obvious with Shiv and Tom, but its there in almost all of their relationships with each other and with other people. Connor is just more obvious about it, being an oblivious idiot.

[Dminches]

I believe Logan offered the CEO position to Shiv just to control her.  She is the only one who has anything else going on in her life.  He could have potentially lost her to fake Bernie so he had to act.  Frankly, he had nothing to lose.

I am not sure Logan cared about what happened to Valuter.  I think he had Kendall clean house since Kendall wanted to do the opposite.  He needs to find ways to get back at Kendall for trying to take him down.

Tom is so funny.  What a great character.

[Pop Tart]

1 hour ago, RealReality said:

I feel like it would make sense for Romans fall to be vaulter related.  I guess if one of the divisions they sold off did really well or if the market reacted badly to them shutting down vaulter. 

This makes sense. No matter what Roman or Kendall had suggested Logan was going to go with Roman's idea - which would be a double blow to Kendall, first because he was siding against him and second because Vaulter was a company that he had brought into the Waystar corporation. 

But in "siding" with Roman, Logan has all bases covered. If it's the right decision, shedding Vaulter, then Roman can get a slight pat on the head and Logan is the all-knowing CEO who made Kendall do the deed. If it's the wrong way to go and somehow they discover that Vaulter would have made them billions, then it's all on Roman and he'd take the fall.

I thought it was interesting that Kendall, who was doing what Logan wanted because he literally has to do what his "dad told him to" actually made some of the most effective business moves he's made to date. He let the lead guy think he was still on his side (while said lead guy was thinking he was still leading Kendall by the nose) and he kept the workers quiet for the extra day he needed. Then he came in during the night and had the server physically moved to another floor so it was under his control and made sure all his ducks were in a row. Then he lowered the boom. That was all Logan-esque and not at all how Kendall (who has wanted to be a good businessman, but one with a bit more heart and soul) would have handled this prior to his downfall.

Some have suggested that his doing this deed was so that he could move up in Logan's good graces and his being stationed in Logan's office was proof that he had advanced. But I didn't see it that way. Him being stationed in Logan's office at a conference table is both to further make the point how much he is under his father's thumb and for Logan to keep the rivalry hot between Kendall and Roman.

[terrymct]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Tom actually gave Shiv excellent advice about playing both sides. His warning that there's a chance that Logan would do the same thing to Shiv that he did to Kendall could be foreshadowing.

And she straight up ignored his advice.  Tom's going to have to find Greg and mistreat him again soon.

[terrymct]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

I thought Kendall’s foray into meaningless shoplifting was another sign of his mental decline. He’s back to drugs and meaningless sex, why not throw in some kleptomania?

The shopkeeper didn't even look at Kendall, didn't show him "proper" respect while he was making the purchase.  Kendall stole from him just as a smack back at the guy, not because he needed batteries.  Just showed his nerve and power in a petty way.

[scrb]

41 minutes ago, Dminches said:

I am not sure Logan cared about what happened to Valuter.  I think he had Kendall clean house since Kendall wanted to do the opposite.  He needs to find ways to get back at Kendall for trying to take him down.

One interpretation is that Kendall is still broken, being blackmailed by Logan so he complied, being the hatchet man to what he championed.

So Kendall carried out the termination to get into Logan's good graces.

Another interpretation is that it's him doing what Logan wants but he also wants to get payback on Lawrence, since they've been talking trash to each other and Lawrence screwed him on the board vote.

So his last line to Lawrence is "Find another chicken coop, c***."

Well Lawrence had said something to him in the first season about how he's in the "chicken coop" now and how he was going to take apart the Roys.

So despite the PTSD and cocaine haze, Kendall remembers payback.

[BlackberryJam]

This show is so complicated on the business and motivation level, with nothing being straight forward and everyone playing five or six angles. I love it.

They also all talk in metaphors that they think the other person understands, but really, the other person has a different interpretation. It's so much better than silly sitcom miscommunication. 

They all suck, and I'm not rooting for any of them, but watching them all fuck up is entertaining as hell.

And YES for Connor being the idiotic smart guy. 

[CouchTater]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

At Tom’s bachelor party, Tabitha gave him a snowball, where you give a guy a blowjob, then kiss him afterwards, having him swallow his own semen. 

...you asked.

Damn, there's a name for that????  I guess I am a sheltered, sheltered girl.

[Dminches]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

One interpretation is that Kendall is still broken, being blackmailed by Logan so he complied, being the hatchet man to what he championed.

So Kendall carried out the termination to get into Logan's good graces.

Another interpretation is that it's him doing what Logan wants but he also wants to get payback on Lawrence, since they've been talking trash to each other and Lawrence screwed him on the board vote.

So his last line to Lawrence is "Find another chicken coop, c***."

Well Lawrence had said something to him in the first season about how he's in the "chicken coop" now and how he was going to take apart the Roys.

So despite the PTSD and cocaine haze, Kendall remembers payback.

This is all possible but Kendall did first tell Logan that Lawrence’s company was worth keeping afloat and investing in. Hard to tell what he really wanted to do. 

[RealReality]

2 hours ago, Pop Tart said:

This makes sense. No matter what Roman or Kendall had suggested Logan was going to go with Roman's idea - which would be a double blow to Kendall, first because he was siding against him and second because Vaulter was a company that he had brought into the Waystar corporation. 

But in "siding" with Roman, Logan has all bases covered. If it's the right decision, shedding Vaulter, then Roman can get a slight pat on the head and Logan is the all-knowing CEO who made Kendall do the deed. If it's the wrong way to go and somehow they discover that Vaulter would have made them billions, then it's all on Roman and he'd take the fall.

I thought it was interesting that Kendall, who was doing what Logan wanted because he literally has to do what his "dad told him to" actually made some of the most effective business moves he's made to date. He let the lead guy think he was still on his side (while said lead guy was thinking he was still leading Kendall by the nose) and he kept the workers quiet for the extra day he needed. Then he came in during the night and had the server physically moved to another floor so it was under his control and made sure all his ducks were in a row. Then he lowered the boom. That was all Logan-esque and not at all how Kendall (who has wanted to be a good businessman, but one with a bit more heart and soul) would have handled this prior to his downfall.

Some have suggested that his doing this deed was so that he could move up in Logan's good graces and his being stationed in Logan's office was proof that he had advanced. But I didn't see it that way. Him being stationed in Logan's office at a conference table is both to further make the point how much he is under his father's thumb and for Logan to keep the rivalry hot between Kendall and Roman.

I agree with all this.  Logan's kids are smart but he is always playing some 3D next level chess.  It'll be interesting to see if and when his illness presents itself this season. 

[northboundtrain]

Another great episode.

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Tom actually gave Shiv excellent advice about playing both sides. His warning that there's a chance that Logan would do the same thing to Shiv that he did to Kendall could be foreshadowing.

Speaking of foreshadowing, I've been wondering about that new first shot of the credits, where the boys leave and "Shiv" is left standing alone and looking distressed, given that it's so similar to the shot in the S1 credits of "Kendall" left standing alone uncertainly after his father leaves (so basically the plot of S1).

I just can't quite decide if the new shot meant as a sort of "here's how we got to this point..." illustration (like, Shiv being left behind/underestimated by the men and how that has shaped her and her relationships with them as an adult), or if it's meant to be foreshadowing Shiv's fall.

5 hours ago, CouchTater said:

I forgot to add, I really love this show.  But wow, this episode was dark.  Oof.  I loved the episode, but didn't enjoy it.

That's a great way of putting it. Pretty much everyone was at their worst.

Quote

Kendall was a zombie for the majority of the episode.  Until he ripped off Vaulter's head in the twist that I did not see coming.

I didn't see the twist coming either...it was so masterfully done. First, because in a way it was already a bit of a twist to see Kendall, who hasn't done one proactive business move (or proactive anything, really) since the car wreck, approach Laurence with an offer of assistance. But, of course, it made sense that the threat of Vaulter getting gutted would be enough to jolt Kendall back to his senses, if only for a little while.

Then when we got the other twist, that Kendall played Laurence/Vaulter, it was twisty in two ways, because it's Kendall actually gutting his prized possession, so that's shocking on its own, but it's also a signal from the writers: Even when it looks like Kendall, talks like Kendall, and seems to value what Kendall values...it's not Kendall. Not anymore. And possibly never again.

4 hours ago, BC4ME said:

I can certainly see how he would have a reason to stay with her to further his ambitions but I'm not getting as strong of a reason for why she would stay with him. He doesn't seem to have as much to offer, especially since she doesn't really even seem to love him. I understand there are some reasons just not as good as the other way around.

I'm not sure if this counts as a spoiler since it was just a vague mention of something in Sarah Snook's Hollywood Reporter interview, but just in case...

Spoiler

This is what she says about what's coming up for Shiv this season: "I guess it's hinted at previously in episode 10 in season one, but we definitely get more of a sense of there having been a past where Shiv was maybe a little bit less in control of her emotions or feelings. There's been a situation in the past where she's been out of sorts and that both Logan and Tom were aware of. There's a history of something that's happened."

I'm prepared to believe that whatever this subplot is is going to make Shiv's relationship with Tom (and perhaps her reasoning for choosing him over others) a little clearer.

3 hours ago, scrb said:

Logan accused her of settling for a man who's way beneath her but then at the wedding said he's" a good man, he's a good man."

I do remember thinking that that comment from Logan might be more of a simple acknowledgement that Tom's total worship of Shiv (and being so under her thumb and desperate for Roy family approval) meant that at least he might be (from Logan's POV) unlikely to cheat on her or abuse her.

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Marcia was pissed.

I almost couldn't believe it. Last season, did we ever see Marcia not in control?

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I thought Kendall’s foray into meaningless shoplifting was another sign of his mental decline. He’s back to drugs and meaningless sex, why not throw in some kleptomania?

ETA: Kendall was ...good in having the birthday at the park for his daughter. He was such a dick in S1 and I feel for him now.

I thought the same about the shoplifting...he's spiraling and looking for ways to demonstrate how little he cares about anything. I thought the same about his disparagement of Rava last episode.

Ugh, but that line from Roman about how Kendall can't even hug his daughter...that got to me. And, of course it would be Roman who was observant enough to notice and then, of course, callous even not to bother with it further.

1 hour ago, Pop Tart said:

Some have suggested that his doing this deed was so that he could move up in Logan's good graces and his being stationed in Logan's office was proof that he had advanced. But I didn't see it that way. Him being stationed in Logan's office at a conference table is both to further make the point how much he is under his father's thumb and for Logan to keep the rivalry hot between Kendall and Roman.

I think the same...that it's still all about what Logan has over Kendall. Everything else is totally distorted by the coke and the depression.

[scrb]

I think at some point, the blackmail threat Logan has over Kendall becomes meaningless.

He can't afford to have a big scandal about his family come out when he's trying to fight off the proxy battle.

Plus, lets face it, he helped cover it up so even if he exposed Kendall, he could be implicated.

Unless he gets his henchmen to just expose Kendall but not the cover up somehow.

In Kendall's case, I don't think he's afraid of Logan turning him in so much as still not over the shock of what happened.

As for him shoplifting, it's not really much of a risk.  If he gets caught, he could easily bribe the shopkeeper to not call the cops on him.

Just throw a bribe of a couple of fistfuls of cash which is nothing to Kendal.

As one of the podcasters said, what's great about this show, especially in this time of inequality, is to depict all these shameless "let them eat cake" rich people on a show.

From Roman taunting that poor kid with the offer of a million dollar to hit a home run in that family softball game to Shiv referring to fake Bernie mingling with the "prole" this is what the one-percent thinks of the 99% when they're amongst themselves.

And we'll keep getting more examples of how horrible these rich people are.

[Carolina Girl]

3 hours ago, CouchTater said:

Damn, there's a name for that????  I guess I am a sheltered, sheltered girl.

Me too....because my reaction was EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!

[luckylou]

6 hours ago, meira.hand said:

What was the end of the last scene about? Kendall stealing the packet of batteries and throwing them in the trash.

so did I.  in fact, I rewound and watched the scene twice.  Anyone get it?

[ProudMary]

I was very surprised that Shiv quit/pushed Gil to the point of firing her. I really thought she was going to play both sides for as long as possible especially since she told no one that Gil had basically given her the WH Chief of Staff position should he win the election. It seemed the smart move and I honestly thought she (like many of us here) was wary of Logan even giving up power and was looking to protect herself. This will not end well for Shiv.

I do hope the writers let us in on why Shiv is with Tom at all, let alone why she married him. She doesn't love him; most of the time I don't even think she likes him. For Tom it makes sense. Shiv's his meal ticket. There's a big piece of the puzzle that we're missing and I'm hoping they don't hold out from us much longer.

Kendall seemed ticked off that the convenience store attendant didn't take his eyes off the television he was watching while ringing up Kendall's purchase. I think he stole the batteries on his way out as a way of saying, "How dare he treat me that way?" just to put the guy in his place, so to speak. 

Did we know that Roman was in a relationship with Tabitha? That seemed to be out of the blue to me. I didn't know who she was until she made the "You might want to swallow something for that throat" crack to Tom. Her comment and Tom's reaction told me who she was, but I was still surprised that she's Roman's (evidently live-in) girlfriend. 

Off topic: Kieran Culkin often reminds me of a young Robert Downey, Jr. I see a resemblance in certain mannerisms and facial expressions 

[scrb]

Yes Roman actually took Tabitha to the wedding in England.  Then he suggested that they marry and she was rolling her eyes.

He said why not and she said for one thing they don't fuck.

Which was also his ex's complaint.

Maybe he like her trollish side.

On Shiv, it would be ironic if fake Bernie wins the election.  He already hates Logan but now Shiv is also on his enemies list.

Logan could use that as an excuse not to put her in charge of Waystar, that the company can't afford to have someone with whom the president has a personal vendetta.

[nb360]

11 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

At Tom’s bachelor party, Tabitha gave him a snowball, where you give a guy a blowjob, then kiss him afterwards, having him swallow his own semen. 

Is Tom hiding his sexual orientation?

Edited August 20, 2019 by nb360

[RealReality]

@scrb and @ProudMary - I think you both bring up good points.  But as smart as shiv and Kendall are I think logan knows how to play them and they see him as such a larger than life figure that they don't always make the most rational decisions.  

Logan played shiv like a fiddle in that scene where she "dropped in." You could just see how shiv could sense that Logan was questioning her commitment and becoming exasperated ("too slow or too fast shiv"). So the best way to show him that she was all in was to burn the one bridge to independence she had.

Shiv is logically so much smarter than that and if it was anyone else she would have seen the play coming, but she wants it so bad (which is amusing since almost every other line with Tom is about how she doesn't want it or it won't happen).

I guess Logan could have it drop that Kendall was involved in the death of that kid and then separate him from the company, but Kendall should know it's unlikely that Logan would do that.  I think he is still shocked and in need of some help.  But I still think he, like shiv, has a blind spot for Logan.

[Athena5217]

If Tom had seen Greg in that tiny loft apartment, he would have forced Greg to take it to delight in Greg’s suffering.

I thought Shiv was the smartest Roy kid, but she let Logan play her. She should leverage his limited options against him. If he doesn’t pick her, he has a choice of three sons—an idiot (Roman), a drug addict (Kendall), and delusional idiot (Connor). These are terrible choices. Kendall’s drug addiction actually makes him the worst choice because he could OD suddenly. Sure Logan could pick a competent person who isn’t his child, but his ego won’t allow that.

Shiv has a trump card that Logan can’t beat—eventually he will die. Of course, this assumes Logan is smart enough to acknowledge the inevitability of death.

[scrb]

Just watched the S1 finale again.

At one point Shiv tells off Nate, who isn't happy about the deal she brokered between Gil and Logan.

She says "I'm Shiv fucking Roy" and brags about being Logan's daughter as well as being the campaign manager for Gil.

So she was already thinking of being close to two powerful men.  

She also confesses to Tom that she slept with Nate and that she may not be cut out for marriage -- the box set death march -- and monogamy.  Then she mocks love and then Tom says he loves her and she says it back and they get down.

But this season, as soon as Logan dangled the top position, she went for it but lets Tom believe that she's ultimately for him being the top guy, which she knows her father and brothers would never let happen.

[BlackberryJam]

8 hours ago, nb360 said:

Is Tom hiding his sexual orientation?

Men can enjoy the taste of their own semen without being attracted to other men. It’s really no different than kissing a man after cunnilingus.

Tom may be gay. With this show, who knows, but getting a snowball isn’t an indicator of that.

I’m disposed to root for Shiv because she’s the Smurfette of the group, but she really is truly awful. She’s not nearly as smart as she thinks she is and she’s terrible at reading men. She blew Gerri out of the water and pegged her own mother, but she can’t read Logan or unBernie. She can’t even recognize when she’s pushing Tom too far. What Shiv likes about Tom is that he’s weak and she can push him around. If the genders were switched, like Connor treating a grasping, scheming Willa like crap, I’m not sure we would be questioning why Connor is with Willa. Shiv seems to really enjoy sex with Tom and they’ve been shown to have an active and healthy sex life. He supports her and gives her the good D. And he’s okay with her getting ego-stroke D on the side. Seems like a solid enough basis for a marriage.

However, all that being said, I struggle to like Shiv because she’s being played and she should know it. UnBernie didn’t really want her as CoS and I think he was looking to fire her. Something about the way Nate was behaving made me think he knew unBernie wanted to give Shiv the boot. She may have outlived her usefulness. 

But....and speaking of butts, Sarah Snook’s looked amazing in those pants last night. I never notice women’s asses, but that was remarkable.

[teddysmom]

On 8/19/2019 at 4:07 AM, Jets4274 said:

I also think Ken killing Vaulter also had something to do with him being told that no one liked him there, which made firing them that much easier.

I think Ken's playing a long con against Roman.  At first his ego wants to hold onto Vaulter, then he realizes he wants more to be in charge of Waystar Royco and the best way to do that is kiss Logan's ass and get rid of Roman.  He hates the Vaulter guy, so fucking him over is nothing. He could care less about the employees, the severance package sucked but it was typical.  I was glad Jess is back. 

My new favorite character is Roman's girlfriend.   

Shiv should be careful with her trolling of Tom.  She may push him too far. 

She knows her father is fucking with her, so is she quitting Gil because he folded too easily to Logan? 

21 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

However, all that being said, I struggle to like Shiv because she’s being played and she should know it. UnBernie didn’t really want her as CoS and I think he was looking to fire her. Something about the way Nate was behaving made me think he knew unBernie wanted to give Shiv the boot. She may have outlived her usefulness. 

She did know Logan's playing her. She told Tom. 

[BlackberryJam]

Shiv said it, but she doesn’t believe it. She has this hope that Logan is really bringing her in. If she didn’t, she wouldn’t have torched her job with unBernie. 

On Ken and Vaulter, I’m wondering once Lawrence gave him the actual raw data, Ken did see that Vaulter should go.

[scrb]

It’s only been weeks or at most a month or two since the wedding.

So Shiv has only been working for fake Bernie for a couple of months?

Guess her political strategist career was just something to bide her time until daddy brought her into the family business.

In the wedding episode, the other siblings get pissed when they find out Kendall is trying to do a hostile takeover.  They are going to be very rich regardless of whether the family controls the company or not.

But even Connor said any fool can have a couple of million but the business is doing something important in the world.  Of course Connor announces his presidential bid after thinking he out-debates fake Bernie at the wedding.

[sadie]

Add me in the camp of why Shiv is with Tom. I wish they would show us something, anything. He seems repulsive in every scene and I don’t know how someone as smart as her could handle him. He wouldn’t make it past the first date. She is rich, connected, attractive and smart and this is what she wants? I get that we all think she likes that she can push him around but it just isn’t enough. Can they write at leas one scene that displays some charm or anything endearing?

it must be how they wrote him because the actor is good. As Mr Darcy in Pride & Prejudice he came off as totally attractive and desirable, as Tom he makes my skin crawl so it’s a definite choice and/or how the character is written. 

[teddysmom]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

Shiv said it, but she doesn’t believe it. She has this hope that Logan is really bringing her in. If she didn’t, she wouldn’t have torched her job with unBernie. 

I thought she got pissed because of the way Gil spoke to her when she offered him Purell, and she doesn't like how he is accepting Logan's perks and the peace treaty.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, sadie said:

Add me in the camp of why Shiv is with Tom. I wish they would show us something, anything. He seems repulsive in every scene and I don’t know how someone as smart as her could handle him. He wouldn’t make it past the first date. She is rich, connected, attractive and smart and this is what she wants?

I think you're forgetting that Shiv is just as completely and as thoroughly broken as the other kids. I mean, sure, a secure, healthy, well-adjusted woman with everything Shiv has going for her would probably choose a more intelligent and more charming sort, but that's not what we're dealing with here.

She never had real love or affection from her father (or from her mother, judging from what we've seen of Lady Caroline), and it has damaged her forever. She is terrified of being betrayed or abandoned, so marrying down is her protection against that. Choosing a weak man who is beneath her, who is dependent on her and who is slavishly devoted to her is how she has chosen to cope with her damage, just as Connor renting a girl (as Marcia put it) and Kendall turning to drugs is how they have chosen to cope with it. 

...And let's face it, no matter how morally repulsive Tom is, he's still tall and handsome, and that counts for a lot.

Quote

I get that we all think she likes that she can push him around but it just isn’t enough. Can they write at leas one scene that displays some charm or anything endearing?

I thought he was charming in the scene where he was urging Shiv to keep her options open, maybe because he was showing something close to a functioning brain.

Quote

it must be how they wrote him because the actor is good. As Mr Darcy in Pride & Prejudice he came off as totally attractive and desirable, as Tom he makes my skin crawl so it’s a definite choice and/or how the character is written. 

He also played the lovely, gentle and charming Arthur Clennam in the Little Dorrit adaptation from a while back. It's definitely the acting and the writing.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Eyes High

[scrb]

Well if Shiv is broken, Tom can't be "fathoms" beneath her, can he?

He can't be inferior just because he comes from Minnesota and has that agricultural walk

They've alluded more than once that when they met, she was feeling insecure or something, probably in need of the kind of affirmation Tom gives her.

She's smart, rich and attractive so she has to have had other suitors.  She is compared to Ivanka and Tom to Jared.  Ivanka is said to have had her party girl days before she settled down so maybe we'll get a similar backstory, though this show really doesn't hasn't done backstories, at least not yet.

[BlackberryJam]

Women can be attracted to weak and sniveling men. Other than being pretty and having money, what does Shiv being to the relationship? It's certainly not kindness, respect or love. They are two terrible people and they are doing a favor to the rest by keeping each other out of the dating pool. (Well, Shiv will still swim in the sex pool, but okay.)

I don't mean to defend Tom, he's awful and he made my skin crawl as Mr. Darcy. (I know that's an unpopular opinion, but he has the looks and acting chops of a supporting character for me and I don't buy MM as a leading man.) But there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman wanting to have all the power in a romantic relationship. Shiv wants a grasping bootlicker who will support her and validate her and scheme with her? Go for it. That most likely does fill that emotional void in her from a father who never, ever loved her enough, a mother who treated her as an annoyance and three brothers who were always going to rank higher than her. Tom makes clear with everything that Shiv ranks higher and she seems to get off on that feeling.

She's still unreasonably cruel, but that seems to be how she and Rome interact and she lets it spill over.

The look on her face though, the glow, when she was talking about Logan offering the job...the sane side of her is telling her to be wary, but she wants it so much that she's letting herself believe.

[Eyes High]

18 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Women can be attracted to weak and sniveling men. Other than being pretty and having money, what does Shiv being to the relationship? It's certainly not kindness, respect or love. They are two terrible people and they are doing a favor to the rest by keeping each other out of the dating pool. (Well, Shiv will still swim in the sex pool, but okay.)

I agree.

Generally in relationships, like attracts like. When it comes down to it, setting her damage and her wealth, beauty, etc. aside for the sake of argument, Shiv is a pretty terrible human being. It makes sense that she would marry someone as awful as she is. Even if she had the security and confidence a loving parental relationship would have given her, she'd probably still end up with someone just as awful as Tom, just someone less dependent on her, more accomplished, and more intelligent.

[BlackberryJam]

I think Greg brings out the worst in Tom because Greg is just as needy and grasping but has a tiny bit more charm. Greg is to Tom as Tom is to Shiv.

Didn’t Marcia have a child? I seem to remember that she did. I’m surprised there aren’t more relatives/vultures trying to get an ‘in’ with Logan.

Kendall has kids, but Connor does not, neither does Roman or Shiv and since women do all the heavy lifting associated with procreating, I wonder if we will get some pregnancy shenanigans with Shiv? I can almost see her telling Logan she’s pregnant only for him to hurl an insult at her about how she can’t be dedicated to the company if she’s focused on swelling feet and lactating. It would be just the kind of thing that would crush her.

I do wonder if we are about to head into a story line where Logan is experiencing effects from his stroke, bad judgment, unreasonable demands and expectations, all of that.

I know Holly Hunter is supposed to be in at least one episode this season and I would love to see her smack down the Roys.

Edited August 20, 2019 by BlackberryJam

[CouchTater]

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

But....and speaking of butts, Sarah Snook’s looked amazing in those pants last night. I never notice women’s asses, but that was remarkable.

I'm not into women's asses either (or women in general), but I thought Shiv's booty looked awesome in her rehearsal dinner dress and wedding dress last season.   She is an attractive woman.

Is she a blonde or a red-head?  That may be a strange question, but I can't really tell.

[BlackberryJam]

She has that strawberry blonde look that really works with pale skin. (I say that as a pale-skinned person who has found the perfect blonde/lowlight/highlight combination for my own look.)