S04.E12: Ghosts

[SimoneS]

I thought it must have irked the hell out of Smurf that after all her machinations that in the end that her sons choose each other over her. If they are honest, they are more relieved than sad that she is dead and gone. It is why they didn't and won't end up doing anything to J.

[Raja]

49 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

yeah she's 2 weeks older than I am, if she's the hot young starlet replacing Barkin then somebody has seriously readjusted Hollywood's standards.

Desperate Housewives, the female CSIs of that franchise, Ming-Na Wen on Agents of SHIELD, Reef Break right now. I am saying that the TV sexual player is more often a 40 or 50 something women these days. The movies have a different standard.

1 hour ago, Dessert said:

Several comments:

Adrian is seeming more and more like a very dim bulb. Deran, what have you done?

How are they going to explain Smurf’s sudden disappearance to ...everyone? ...especially the police. I’m looking forward to Detective Pearce’s reaction.

J. has already got that on lock, the family doctor will issue the falsified death certificate that Smurf died of her terminal cancer not his assisting her suicide.

[Shellbell59]

23 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

So I am guessing that is a 'no' to the miraculous cancer cure.  Well that at least explains the reason for the backstory with young Smurf.  The birth and death of Smurf the Mother of all Mothers.

And this wasn't even the season finale.  We still have the Adrian issue to deal with at the least.

A couple of hard core murders.  Smurf killing Jed.  J killing Smurf.  I did not see Smurf actually dying coming.   Not sure if the show can survive long term with the lack of Ellen Barkin.   She made the show for me.  Yes there is a lot of guy eye candy but the majority of the show is Smurf being Smurf.  

I am curious if the boys will even follow J.  Especially after he shot mommy in the head.

I mean Craig has a family now.

Deran has Adrian

Even Pope has the potential with Angela.  

Why would they ever follow J?  That is the only minor little problem with the story I have.  

I know...right? How could they?

the only way I see them accepting J is because they have been CONTROLLED all of their lives and poses no other means to survive...Deran my run...but what would Craig do for a living? He’s supposed to send Deran $ from bar...and Pope? J... like or not (I’m sick about it).... they ALL fear..(yet respect because ESSENTIALLY J saved Pope’s life...Smurf was determined to die there...somewhere close to Colin..and planned for Pope to join...as they were the ‘unit’).

Now they know J has the resolve to protect them...and carry on...he was calm enough to give Smurf her final wish for an exit...like it or not....that sitch was going SOUTH VERY QUICKLY...

He keeps his cool...put her out of her misery. We know (or I do) once a person allows medical field to take over...and one is hospitalized (Smurf would be...anyway...especially will leg gunshot wound)

..its very difficult to break free the whole gold job would be exposed and that was her parting gift to last 3 boys...Pope May have supposed to go with her as mentioned.

hell..I dono I’m just shocked...phew..

[chick binewski]

10 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Next week should be interesting. I wonder what is going through Pope's head. He has to realize that, at the very least, Smurf did not care if he was collateral damage in her suicide mission. How did she expect him to escape from the shoot-out when they were so heavily outnumbered? In all probability, she didn't. There's also a reason she demanded he be the one to shoot her. He head must be reeling with the idea that she meant to take him with her. I think that's likely to change his tune regarding J since he ended up saving his life.

That was an odd scene with Smurf waking up on the yacht. It seems like something got cut there because that felt very out of place and unexplained.

I hope we find out why everyone started calling Andrew "Pope."

That interview linked at the top of this thread is an interesting read, and I'm not liking what I'm reading either.

  Reveal spoiler

It appears the "young Smurf" flashbacks will continue next season. Ugh - IMO that's been the worst part of this season. And it reeks of replacing Ellen Barkin with a younger model.

I didn't get the yacht either. I'm hoping next week explains what happened.

I HATED reading that article. 

Spoiler

Teen Smurf , while beautiful, is not interesting to watch AT ALL. If they hired another actress or kept Barkin for more recent flashbacks I might be curious to see Julia's story.

4 hours ago, topanga said:

 Deran didn't want to give Smurf the gun when she demanded it, but he let Smurf take it from him. Craig didn't want to give Pope his gun when Smurf commanded him to, but he let Pope take it from him. And no one simply tackled her to the ground when she had the gun pointed at Pope. Or after she shot Pope's ear. These grown men become helpless little boys when they're around Smurf. 

J was the only one who as able to break out his trance. Is that because he didn't grow up around Smurf? 

That was one aspect of the episode I liked - these messed up, careless, violent criminals really appear as victims of abuse when confronted by Smurf. I'm looking forward to the show doing something with her absence from their lives next season.

I think J is just like Baz. Shrewd and cold-hearted. I don't want to blame the actor bc I think he's being directed to stare & act remote so his actions appear ambiguous, but I don't believe he's conflicted about anything - he wants all of them destroyed.

4 hours ago, magdalene said:

I have been hearing Wells wanted a younger and prettier female lead and that's why the actress from Bones was brought in and why they killed off Smurf.  Angela is already trying on Smurf's clothes.

They certainly didn't need to do this because of ratings.  This show - which until now had a mature woman as the lead - has been a ratings winner for TNT for its entire run.

This whole thing feels like it was not Barkin's choice but an effort to push her out to show younger. Her Twitter comments last night thanked Jackie Weaver and the real-life Smurf and no one else.

[Dessert]

30 minutes ago, Raja said:

J. has already got that on lock, the family doctor will issue the falsified death certificate that Smurf died of her terminal cancer not his assisting her suicide.

I guess I’m assuming the police, at least Detective Pearce, won’t buy it. Plus,  I think Angela, and lord knows who else, will tell them.

[tennisgurl]

Holy shit, they actually killed off Smurf! I mean, yeah they were building to it all season, but I really thought they would find some wiggle room on her cancer. I should have realized that J would be the one to do it, but I was still shocked. Not only has J always hated Smurf for abandoning him and his mother, J wasn't around Smurf long enough for her to get into his head like she did with the others. Her sons might be resentful or Smurf, and even hate her sometimes, but she has made them so dependent on her that they still cant actually imagine a life without her. Of course we bookmark her first babies, to her begging her grown up babies to kill her, being a mom becomes such an all consuming part of her life right there, and goes until the very end. You know that Smurf has been holding onto this (understandable) grudge against Jed for years, and this was the way to kill two birds with one stone. Almost literally! She gets to kill a man she hates, as well as go out swinging, and for an extra plus, she gets to take her surviving first born with her. 

Really, there is a truly tragic story here about the cycle of abuse and how it continues to effect families throughout the generations. Smurf had an abusive mother who used her for her own gain, and went on to become an abusive mother as well who used her kids for her own gain. Jed and Colin had an abusive father, and Jed goes onto become an abusive husband and father, and has raised his kids to become violent preppers just like him. And now because of the awful upbringing J had due to the assumed abusive behavior Smurf dumped on Julia, he has become a cold calculating criminal who just shot his grandma point blank. 

I dont know where we go from here. Will J take over, or will everyone just go their separate ways? Craig has his new family, Deran is about to run off with Adrian, and maybe Pope and Angela will become a thing and Pope generally seems happier when he isn't doing criminal stuff anyway. Why even follow J, unless they really need to stay in the business, and figure that he is the best planner among them. Which is true, but still, he doesn't have the ridiculous hold over the guys that Smurf did, so I can see them all splitting.

So the plan is to have a doctor forge a note that says Smurf died of cancer, so...how are they planning on explaining that bullet hole? Will they just get rid of her body and hope they take their word and their certificate on it? 

Smurf must have died super pissed that her sons wouldn't just shot her when she asked them too!

[Raja]

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So the plan is to have a doctor forge a note that says Smurf died of cancer, so...how are they planning on explaining that bullet hole? Will they just get rid of her body and hope they take their word and their certificate on it? 

Smurf must have died super pissed that her sons wouldn't just shot her when she asked them too!

Explain to who, just as they have a doctor on retainer to issue the certificate they certainly have someone on retainer to handle the remains of someone who died of "natural causes"  as opposed to assisted suicide who will dispose of the evidence.

It doesn't even have to be a mobster, just someone who believes in assisted suicide and shielding a doctor, or J in this case from prosecution or allowing for a funeral in a Catholic cemetery

[Perfect-barn]

11 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Poor Pope. He knew that preppers heist was fcuked, he just had no idea how much.

Oh, okay. Smurf had been waiting a long time to deliver that payback. Yeah, I'd say Jed was way overdue.

Ugh, I hope they aren't planning to slide Angela in as the new Smurf next season. Her already trying on Smurf's clothes was a bit much. I think J needs to put a cap in the back of her head too. Immediately.

So I guess this was Smurf's way of destroying the family business? Surely she knew those preppers would come back at the Codys even if she was gone.

Bye, Ellen. You delivered one of the toughest gangster queen/bad mama characters in recent history and did it like a BOSS. Don't know how well the show will do without you. Hope to catch you on your next TV venture.

I think she planned on killing the other preppers, and being killed in the process. That's why she was so angry at Pope for running. Also, I am a terrible person because I was literally like "thank God" when it looked like Angela was drowning in the tub. Was so disappointed when she popped back up. 

[chefjane]

WOW!~ What a bunch of high drama shit that was. Holy cow! I even cried!

Smurf told Jay about Adrian on purpose and Jay wanted to kill Smurf all along and swore he would. So I bet Jay kills Adrian before he and Deran leave. This is going to be a shit-show now! and those cousins of Pope's are armed to the teeth! They should have gone back in through the bunker and killed everyone on that ranch before they left. 

Ellen Barkin has been TOTALLY ROBBED (ironic, no?) by not being nominated for an EMMY. Her portrayal of Smurf is Phenomenal!!!

[MaggieG]

I feel bad for Pope. Not only does he have to live with the fact that his mother went on a suicide mission and basically wanted him to die along with her, it was all under the pretense of introducing him to his uncle and cousins, that he clearly didn't know about! Oh and by the way, your father is buried in this field.

When Smurf was screaming at Pope at the end, I knew J would be the one that ended up shooting her. Craig and Deran didn't have their guns and Pope was not going to pull the trigger. I was still shocked when it actually happened. J is stone cold. 

[Chick2Chic]

[Ohwell]

I won't miss Smurf walking around like she's got a stick down her back and calling her sons "baby" and waiting for them to get out of the shower.

[MamaBird]

Pope has got a lot to deal with.  Besides the death of his mother, and the knowledge that she intended to take him with her, he just received a massive information dump about his father.  An uncle! Cousins! Pictures, and reminiscences! "This is your dad right before he went to Vietnam... "  Oh, and by the way, he's buried right over there.

Will he tell J any of this stuff?  And if he does, will J use it to his advantage?  Knowing where a body is buried on the preppers' land could be something he could use, if he believes Smurf.

I must say that Laney impressed the hell out of me when she put down that toddler, went tearing off after her husband, and tackled him off of Janine!  And then she proceeded to deliver the twins.  Jed should appreciate what he's got.

[geauxaway]

I thought they were tunneling straight to the car.  Especially when they his the entrance to the bunker it appeared to be a teal colored metal door.  

Was on the edge of my seat the entire episode.  Smurf dying was as shocking to me as Marissa dying (which I was completely unspoiled for back in the day).  Was like a total OMFG they went there moment.

[Shellbell59]

11 hours ago, MaggieG said:

I feel bad for Pope. Not only does he have to live with the fact that his mother went on a suicide mission and basically wanted him to die along with her, it was all under the pretense of introducing him to his uncle and cousins, that he clearly didn't know about! Oh and by the way, your father is buried in this field.

When Smurf was screaming at Pope at the end, I knew J would be the one that ended up shooting her. Craig and Deran didn't have their guns and Pope was not going to pull the trigger. I was still shocked when it actually happened. J is stone cold. 

Omg...the first time I watched that final dirt road scene...I couldn’t handle hearing it...so I muted...and at one point actually covered my eyes...😖🥴

they were flipping back and forth with the flashbacks...I closed and opened my eyes to Young Smurf giving birth...and COMPLETELY MISSED Smurf shooting Pope’s ear!!! ...okay...I know I’m a total wuss...🤦‍♀️

Unlike you...I can’t say I knew the ending for certain...but I Did notice the body language on all four boys while I was on mute...

the poor sons had their arms flaccid against their bodies...shock probably along with a myriad of complex emotions... takes the wind outta you...

HOWEVER J...on the other hand had “assumed the position” of any cop or armed services personnel...ready...

good thing for Pope...for now...

scenes from next week were unusual...Angela saying to J...”maybe you want them all dead”...

wha????

IMO... Smurf will carry on in flashbacks showing background on boys’ upbringing.. maybe? I dunno...I’m still a bit stirred.

 

10 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I won't miss Smurf walking around like she's got a stick down her back and calling her sons "baby" and waiting for them to get out of the shower.

Great post...and I noticed Smurf’s “stick” getting firmer and firmer the farther her cancer progressed. It may have been her best defensive posture in life...the “stick up” way she carried herself..?...

It brought to mind the flashbacks and young Smurf having such ‘swag’ while around the crew...even when sick as an effing dawg while PG....she HAD to....especially in those days...

That is why I say the swagger stick may have been her best defense...because if she carried herself like Jed’s wife in that situation...Smurf would be nada more than a “turned out”....for the crew...

.but Jed’s wife...was a real woman and pulled the asshole rapist off of the 8 months pregnant Smurf. Yeah Jed’s wife!!

oh oh...I forgot to mention… That scene where Smurf wakes up in the bathroom of a yacht? I can’t believe all the drug paraphernalia on the coffee table when she picks up her sunglasses… I see 2 trays (at least of Blow..the nearest one w/blue vile has a at least half oz...sitting behind what may be an aluminum can (used as a makeshift smoking/‘cooking’ device)

Not to mention of Mag+2 regular bottles of what looks like Dom

Shes definitely planning that final exit...numb...

she had plenty...enough to leave Angela her pain Med script (one other person to take out...IF Angela hadn’t lost about half the pills down toilet) 😕

 

This may have already been mentioned...I’m just now catching up because I had to mute and cover my eyes during parts of that one scene...still nervy about it...deeeep breathe....okay...

i LOVED how Smurf took out EVERY PIECE OF GOLD (fake/real...it didn’t matter) to send a subliminal message to Jed and his “prepper” boys....

Odin? I Loved the name....and know a few (foreigners with true nordic ancestry (not about supremacy))...but Jed’s son having the name....massing arms and anti immigrant stances...Uber-xenophobe behavior...damn... it REALLY soured me on the name...

also ITA with comments up thread about Barkin deserving an Emmy.

Thanks to your comments it “donged 🤦‍♀️“ on me.... I wonder if Barkin will stay on show...continuing ‘flashbacks’ to give whole stories/histories of each boy....starting with Craig...who has no father and becoming a father....just a thought.

oh and yes to comment about Smurf making it a point to tell J about Adrian before she died ‘however it would come to be..her death happened)... that’s a leverage J has...

i cant remember...Smurf hasn’t told Pope yet about Adrian? So just J and Deran know? 

Phew....I’m having tachycardia just thinking about it all...

ill get a life..promise 😖 

😆

[Dowel Jones]

I was rather surprised that Smurf didn't get killed in the shootout.  That woman couldn't hit the side of a barn from inside the barn.  The only thing that saved her was that the two kids weren't any better.

[Shellbell59]

8 hours ago, MamaBird said:

Pope has got a lot to deal with.  Besides the death of his mother, and the knowledge that she intended to take him with her, he just received a massive information dump about his father.  An uncle! Cousins! Pictures, and reminiscences! "This is your dad right before he went to Vietnam... "  Oh, and by the way, he's buried right over there.

Will he tell J any of this stuff?  And if he does, will J use it to his advantage?  Knowing where a body is buried on the preppers' land could be something he could use, if he believes Smurf.

I must say that Laney impressed the hell out of me when she put down that toddler, went tearing off after her husband, and tackled him off of Janine!  And then she proceeded to deliver the twins.  Jed should appreciate what he's got.

Ooh oh oooh!!! Great point! 👏👏👏

Pope now knows Colin is buried there in “Prepperland”... so when it comes to brass tacks....they can reveal that info to authorities as leverage...

because Colin’s femur artery tear was from bullet that went all the way through...in parking lot right? (No casing or bullet in body or lodged in car...would mean no for sure ID shot by cop ammo....instead setting up preppers on pretty good circumstantial evidence...

also...since I had on mute...(could only handle on sensory inlet at a time 😣) I NEVER heard about Pope being born with teeth!! It is rare but can be totally normal...

that said my middle grandson was born with teeth...ppl should know...it is also a symptom/sign of “Sotos syndrome”...VERY difficult to diagnose...because (at that time) >80% of cases were of Japanese decent..therefore testing obviously was originated based on that phenomenon..looking for particular gene...

however in other ethnicities...they’ve recently found that Soto’s syndrome causes issue in adjacent genes...and more ppl have it than what was originally thought...(besides unusual tooth growth...look for very long extremities...especially if little muscle tone...large head w/predominant forehead (lack of muscle tone may present very early w/inability to hold weight of head...head leaning to side shoulder)...pointed chin...reddish (rosacea look) cheeks.

sorry for OT...or another PSA...but we were early in findings...but too late...to provide the best interventional treatment 

There are many frustrated young parents looking for answers....awareness is key...and the spectrum is great..much like autism’s.

thank you...

okay ill stop...

 

2 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

I was rather surprised that Smurf didn't get killed in the shootout.  That woman couldn't hit the side of a barn from inside the barn.  The only thing that saved her was that the two kids weren't any better.

Not only was she planning to die...(by wild shooting..hitting nothing...and we know she’s a good shot from flashbacks)

This display was trying to entice whatever prepper son to engage....kill her and Pope...3 (cocked and loaded) preppers  against a women committing “suicide by nephew” and a son caught not knowing what is going on...(sad...🤭)

I don’t think Smurf believed Pope could stand up to the 3 after she offed Jed...and they’d both “join Colin” in the sky...

However Pope rose to the occasion...

and in the “real world”... if a person is hit by a stray bullet...Pope’s actions would have saved a life...he actually treated with a tourniquet!

(Okay...yes...bad example...I know...real world everyday ppl don’t get hit by stray bullets)

But still...Pope’s actions were dam near heroic given the circumstances...both mom and adversaries were out to kill...

he made it out...

PS.. I thought the boys carrying Smurf to truck was very symbolic...a pallbearer scene..with J on one side and the 3 sons opposing 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Shellbell59

[tennisgurl]

As awful of a person Smurf was, I really cant imagine the show without her. She was a fantastic character, and she kind of held the show together, I cant even really imagine a show without her for a season.

[Chick2Chic]

15 hours ago, Shellbell59 said:

Pope now knows Colin is buried there in “Prepperland”... so when it comes to brass tacks....they can reveal that info to authorities as leverage...

It was interesting to me that Smurf chose to die where Colin was buried... and have their last surviving child go out with her.

[iMonrey]

Quote

None of the current women can fill Barkin’s shoes. That’s not even a criticism. They’re all good, but no one can come close. What on earth were these people thinking writing her out? Yes, I think they have a problem with older women. I feel like Smurf. “A deal is a deal”!

What really irritates me about John Wells' explanation for killing off Smurf is that it reeks of laziness. Shows have killed off major characters before, just for the sake of showing how daring and edgy they are. "ooh, look! ANYthing can happen on THIS show! Nobody is safe!" It's a way to get people talking and for the show to get a lot of buzz. But it's creatively bankrupt and the short-term gains will never outweigh the long-term consequences of angry fans who stop watching the show.

If you can't come up with anything better than killing off a major character for shock value, you need better writers.

Quote

I won't miss Smurf walking around like she's got a stick down her back and calling her sons "baby" and waiting for them to get out of the shower.

I get that people were creeped out by Smurf but that's kind of the whole point of the show. The family's relationship was unhealthy to the nth degree. It was morbid but it was fascinating and unlike anything else on television. Without that dynamic you just have a plain old, pedestrian crime show. 

[chick binewski]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

If you can't come up with anything better than killing off a major character for shock value, you need better writers.

I get that people were creeped out by Smurf but that's kind of the whole point of the show. The family's relationship was unhealthy to the nth degree. It was morbid but it was fascinating and unlike anything else on television. Without that dynamic you just have a plain old, pedestrian crime show. 

That's true. As much as Barkin's choices bugged me (they seemed out of pace with the rest of the show) her death didn't feel...earned. And now that it's clear it wasn't Ellen's choice after they managed to find a way to have a 25 year old play her it feels a bit sour.

On 8/15/2019 at 11:32 AM, Chick2Chic said:

I am deceased at the response to Tell us your favorite Smurf moment!:

"The time you didn’t kill her."

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I get that people were creeped out by Smurf but that's kind of the whole point of the show. The family's relationship was unhealthy to the nth degree. It was morbid but it was fascinating and unlike anything else on television. Without that dynamic you just have a plain old, pedestrian crime show. 

It might have been fascinating to you and some others, but it wasn't fascinating to me and I'm happy she's gone.  I also won't miss those pouty lips. 

My only concern is that Angela takes her place and I don't like her either.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Ohwell

[Dessert]

I won’t be watching any more Animal Kingdom. Killing Barkin’s character off made no sense and she was treated shabbily. Yes, I think it was at least partly because she’s an older actress.

It’s like The Sopranos without Gandolfini’s Tony. 

[MrWhyt]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

If you can't come up with anything better than killing off a major character for shock value, you need better writers.

who says it's for shock value? maybe they wanted to tell stories without her. Smurf is the one who molded/lead/controlled the cody boys. How will the go on without her? who will come out on top in the Pope/J conflict now that there is a open leadership position? Deran and Craig have reasons to leave the family business, will they now that Smurf is gone?. Is adrian still in danger now that Smurf isn't there to push Pope to do something about him? etc.

[Chaos Theory]

I am thinking this show might have another season or two in it.  But the fir w cable network show five or six seasons is respectable.   I like Angela and think she fits well into the story but I also see that having her isn’t meant to be a steady transition or an ingenue.    Pops likes her.   J doesn’t like her.    Craig and Deran have their own things going on.    

[misstwpherecool]

On 8/15/2019 at 4:55 PM, Shellbell59 said:

Ooh oh oooh!!! Great point! 👏👏👏

Pope now knows Colin is buried there in “Prepperland”... so when it comes to brass tacks....they can reveal that info to authorities as leverage...

because Colin’s femur artery tear was from bullet that went all the way through...in parking lot right? (No casing or bullet in body or lodged in car...would mean no for sure ID shot by cop ammo....instead setting up preppers on pretty good circumstantial evidence...

😣

It's not the body in the car but the car itself that is suspected in the shootout with police decades ago. A murder not so much but they might think the preppers were pulling robberies decades ago to fund their stockpile. They could become suspects in many of the robberies the smurf gang pulled.

On 8/15/2019 at 4:55 PM, Shellbell59 said:

Not only was she planning to die...(by wild shooting..hitting nothing...and we know she’s a good shot from flashbacks)

This display was trying to entice whatever prepper son to engage....kill her and Pope...3 (cocked and loaded) preppers  against a women committing “suicide by nephew” and a son caught not knowing what is going on...(sad...🤭)

I don’t think Smurf believed Pope could stand up to the 3 after she offed Jed...and they’d both “join Colin” in the sky...

However Pope rose to the occasion...

and in the “real world”... if a person is hit by a stray bullet...Pope’s actions would have saved a life...he actually treated with a tourniquet!

(Okay...yes...bad example...I know...real world everyday ppl don’t get hit by stray bullets)

But still...Pope’s actions were dam near heroic given the circumstances...both mom and adversaries were out to kill...

he made it out...

PS.. I thought the boys carrying Smurf to truck was very symbolic...a pallbearer scene..with J on one side and the 3 sons opposing 

Yeh suicide by nephew. Blaze of glory.

Still don't get how Smurf and the brother got back to speaking terms. Smurf at least had enough motherly instincts to get her newborns started. Bitting her tung/restraining herself all those years probably altered Smurfs behavior the rest of her life. Then again she was probably allowed to go visit Colin's grave when ever she wanted.

[Raja]

55 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

It's not the body in the car but the car itself that is suspected in the shootout with police decades ago. A murder not so much but they might think the preppers were pulling robberies decades ago to fund their stockpile. They could become suspects in many of the robberies the smurf gang pulled.

Yeh suicide by nephew. Blaze of glory.

Still don't get how Smurf and the brother got back to speaking terms. Smurf at least had enough motherly instincts to get her newborns started. Bitting her tung/restraining herself all those years probably altered Smurfs behavior the rest of her life. Then again she was probably allowed to go visit Colin's grave when ever she wanted.

Judging by the way he treated his wife I bet Jed died still thinking he did nothing wrong in trying to get in trade sex from any woman. And Smurf, hard as it was never had a shot at him that wouldn't be suicide.

[hookedontv]

Whoa I just watched this - very intense episode! Smurf always bugged me and creeped me out but I understood the importance of having her in the show, she’s the critical element in the Cody family. Like other posters have said, man she ramped up that affected walk of hers-stick up her ass, chin lifted up, and overly plumped lips in an even more exaggerated downturn. Smurf meant business. 

Still cannot stand the flashbacks, though for once I didn’t fast forward thru them this episode. 

As if she didn’t already fuck up her kids enough she goes all “suicide by Pope” and J steps in to handle it. Poor Pope. And all the boys. J is a cold killer and for some reason I get it. (Not sure what that says about me! But it’s just an entertaining TV show...) 

I still can’t stand Angela, and yeh I wanted her to drown in the tub. I am still shocked that she is allowed to see the Cody activities and they don’t hid anything from her. She’s going to blab to someone. 

[Ohwell]

I know Pope is fucked up in the head but I'm surprised that he didn't catch on to Angela's eagerness for Smurf's death, although she assumed it would be from cancer.  J sure noticed pretty quickly.  

[anonymiss]

In Season 1 when Smurf took Jay to a motel after they robbed the bar together (she played  the fake hostage) she told him after, "PROMISE ME WHEN THE TIME COMES YOU'LL PUT A BULLET IN MY HEAD. PROMISE ME, JAY!"

He promised.

So I was expecting it to be Jay and don't think it was revenge, just appropriate.

Edited August 18, 2019 by anonymiss

[Raja]

53 minutes ago, anonymiss said:

In Season 1 when Smurf took Jay to a motel after they robbed the bar together (she played  the fake hostage) she told him after, "PROMISE ME WHEN THE TIME COMES YOU'LL PUT A BULLET IN MY HEAD. PROMISE ME, JAY!"

He promised.

So I was expecting it to be Jay and don't think it was revenge, just appropriate.

So revenge would be to let her kill uncle Pope and let her die a slow painful death. J seems cold enough to do that. I wonder what his other uncles would have done and how Smurf would have worked them?

[SimoneS]

Has Angela ever said what Smurf did to Julia to cause her to hate Smurf so much? Too bad they did those Smurf flashbacks instead of ones of Julia. I am far more interested in Julia's dynamic in that house with her mother and brothers.

Edited August 18, 2019 by SimoneS

[heisenberg]

On 8/16/2019 at 10:56 PM, Chaos Theory said:

I am thinking this show might have another season or two in it.  But the fir w cable network show five or six seasons is respectable.   I like Angela and think she fits well into the story but I also see that having her isn’t meant to be a steady transition or an ingenue.    Pops likes her.   J doesn’t like her.    Craig and Deran have their own things going on.    

I don't think Angela will replace Smurf. 

Smurf was doing or dealing something with Frankie few episodes ago.  Was she with her the night before on the boat?  My guess is that she was.

To me, Frankie is replacing Smurf, with even bigger plans for the boys, like she did say before.

Edited August 19, 2019 by heisenberg

[Shellbell59]

19 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Has Angela ever said what Smurf did to Julia to cause her to hate Smurf so much? Too bad they did those Smurf flashbacks instead of ones of Julia. I am far more interested in Julia's dynamic in that house with her mother and brothers.

This may have been mentioned again...but I’m hoping Barkin will stay on and continue some ‘’flashbacks” of later years now that this last season’s flashes have served their purpose...setting up why Smurf is was so stuck emotionally...and The Who, Why, and How of her Gold heist final draw...

Example-more flashbacks could explain Craig father sitch....especially since she so clearly pointed out that J WILL buy Craig that book on fatherhood....(since “there are books for everything these days”

it seemed production had really aged Barkin’s Smurf the last few seasons...and even though I’m not a huge fan of her supposed ‘beauty’....I believe they can ‘youth’ her up for flashback idea...Just a thought...

Edited August 19, 2019 by Shellbell59

[iMonrey]

On re-watch Smurf does in fact admit that she planned to take Pope down with her in the shoot-out. I hadn't caught that the first time around, the scene was so intense. So Pope knows she meant for him to die with her. As if he's not messed up enough as it is.

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It’s like The Sopranos without Gandolfini’s  Tony. 

Yeah. I mean, I get that there are people who don't like Smurf and just watch the show for the boys. But that's kind of like watching Seinfeld and going "if only they'd get rid of that Jerry guy." That's . . . a completely different show. She was the main character like it or not. There's a reason she's listed first in the opening credits.

Quote

who says it's for shock value? maybe they wanted to tell stories without her.

You don't kill off the main character for any other reason, unless there's a problem with the actor or you are just plain out of ideas and want to turn the show into something else.

Quote

To me, Frankie is replacing Smurf, with even bigger plans for the boys, like she did say before.On 

Good God, I hope not. I was hoping we'd seen the last of her. Must we endure endless flashbacks of Young Smurf and Angela and Frankie too? That's too much to ask.

[MrWhyt]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

You don't kill off the main character for any other reason, unless there's a problem with the actor or you are just plain out of ideas and want to turn the show into something else

that's assuming that Smurf is the main character, I'd argue that J is. As for out of ideas, I counter with they have ideas, they just don't include Smurf.

[topanga]

1 hour ago, MrWhyt said:

that's assuming that Smurf is the main character, I'd argue that J is. As for out of ideas, I counter with they have ideas, they just don't include Smurf.

Maybe, but to me those ideas won’t be as interesting without Smurf. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by topanga

[heisenberg]

11 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Good God, I hope not. I was hoping we'd seen the last of her. Must we endure endless flashbacks of Young Smurf and Angela and Frankie too? That's too much to ask.

Well, Frankie did ask J and Smurf to pass in the "big league",  We never saw any follow up to it,  it was not filmed just for fun I guess.   Smurf was on a big boat on her last night,  who else would it be except for the "big league"?  I could be wrong but those events took place for a reason.

I am not too sure about Angela,  everyone wants her dead, why would she be a leader or even still alive?  I just hope she does not finish this season.

[misstwpherecool]

On 8/18/2019 at 10:38 PM, heisenberg said:

I don't think Angela will replace Smurf. 

Smurf was doing or dealing something with Frankie few episodes ago.  Was she with her the night before on the boat?  My guess is that she was.

To me, Frankie is replacing Smurf, with even bigger plans for the boys, like she did say before.

Has me wondering too. I don't get the resentment towards Frankie other than being an outsider. They did get burnt but they also got leads on jobs from her. She's more of professional in that she does it for a living. The Smurf gang do jobs as needed. There more opportunists.

Frankie is a strong character like it or not. When she gave Smurf her cut of the job she might have been nudging Smurf to tell someone go to her once she's out. She probably did tell Frankie that J is the natural leader and the smarter one of the bunch. Much closer to herself.

I don't know wether people can't stand the actress or character. Same for Angela. Is it the character or actress.

I've also been wondering if Angela cooperated on another un-associated case while in prison. Even if that's the case if the gang finds out she'll be considered a rat on the spot.

[iMonrey]

Quote

that's assuming that Smurf is the main character, I'd argue that J is. 

The main character is the one listed first in the credits. That's Ellen Barkin. I would allow that Baz was equally the main character in the first 2 seasons, and certainly the show has evolved into more of an ensemble, but the show itself revolves are Smurf. It all comes back to her. We wouldn't be enduring an entire seasons of flashbacks about her if she weren't the main character.

I get that she's maybe not everyone's favorite character and that a lot of fans are fine seeing her go. But that doesn't mean she wasn't the main character up 'til now, or that the story won't be drastically different without her. 

It's kind of like how they changed "Roseanne" to "The Conners," really. A lot of people were like "Great, I never liked her anyway, I like the other characters, it's a better show without her." But then those people were watching the show in spite of her and wishing it was some other show.

[Marley]

Intense episode. The show might be ruined tho. I don’t think J can carry the show. Last season when Smurf was in prison for a lot of the episodes was my least favourite season. She’s fucked but Smurf held the show together IMO. J is annoying and I don’t buy him as the leader.

[MrWhyt]

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The main character is the one listed first in the credits.

the actor who negotiated it is listed first in the credits. Ellen Barkin may have been the biggest name when the show started but that doesn't make her the main character.