S03.E11: Liars

[dmc]

19 minutes ago, greekmom said:

The chair is too good for the Waterfords. I say put them through the same humiliation that June went through on a monthly bases and then hang them. 

I thought the deal was coconuts (aka Hawaii) and a child of her own. Not Holly.

I'm hoping trader. My one regret with Winslow is that he didn't press Fred for his intentions.  I would have loved to see if Fred either smooth talks his way out of that situation or reports him or both.

she deserves to be arrested as well.  I am going to be pissed if she gets to make a new life wherever.  

[Ramona]

4 hours ago, burghgal said:

 would like a "Martha's tale" episode.

Yes, this!  I was thinking about this, this morning while brushing my teeth. (TMI, I know)  But a Martha storyline or even a look at the resistance network, would have made this season a little more tolerable.  It's a shame that the show waits until the last 3 to 4 episodes to get interesting.  What a waste.  

[AnswersWanted]

10 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Sure is  a good thing that the community has someone to explain everything to them, set them straight, and take charge of it all. Whatever would the rest of them do without her? All she needs now is to have some kind of new, super hero name. It's probably coming.

I think the number of eyerolls I had this time around was down a few notches, though, so that's something anyway.

Snark like yours is literally the reason I keep hanging out here and keep watching. The sarcasm and joking around makes this flustercuck bearable. 'I'm not a stupid person, I know what the show is TRYING to do-it just almost always falls short and that's disappointing. And the day I can no longer snark about it is the day I give up on it for good.

Justice June?

Biscuit Baroness?

Pastry Punisher?

The Handmaiden of Hope?

Gilead Gal?

The Pen Pundit? 

Bigger Boat Barbara? 

Were it not for being able to share my pain and snark with you guys, I’d have been spilitsville with this show ages ago. 

I’ll never let go, Jack, I’ll never let go...

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, Trillian said:

For sure. I kept thinking during that scene that I wanted one of whatever kind of vacuum cleaner that was. I have a pretty powerful steam cleaner but there’s no way even fresh protein stains come out like that with just one swipe. 

She was swiping many, many times.  Yeah, not a vacuum cleaner, an industrial strength cleaner there.  As others have said, they are probably used to cleaning up blood there.

2 hours ago, jenn31 said:

Which brings me to Commander Winslow (you guys and his past roles naming, this show is confusing enough in its idiocy! 😄  ). Why bring in a big name like Meloni for a few episodes then kill any impending stories they hinted at?

You've forgotten this show's love of flashbacks.  😉

With Fred in jail now, I'm pretty sure there will be at least some backstory involving Winslow about how he rose again from the depths, and probably how the two of them took down Lawrence as well.

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

I thought the deal was coconuts (aka Hawaii) and a child of her own. Not Holly.

Yup.  There is no way they are giving Holly back.  Honestly, that's just silly.  They just arrested him for war crimes, and he's to be tried in some International Court.  She may be able to visit Holly though, for more cooperation (and to get our Canada cast more screen time.)

5 hours ago, revbfc said:

I’m going to assume they were driving through that ambiguous area in Vermont, and that was why the American agent was able to drive around all casual-like without being arrested for treason himself (assuming Gilead considers all US citizens under their jurisdiction).

As for the casualness with which the Marthas disposed of Winslow’s body: I bet they have to do that a lot…but usually the bodies are women.

There is no way Gilead has the resources to patrol all of the Canadian Border, the USA doesn't even have those resources, and we aren't involved (as Gilead is) with a civil war.  Also if you look at that leaked map several areas near that border are

Spoiler

controlled by rebels.

I agree with you about the bodies of woman being disposed of.

4 hours ago, HollyG said:

I'm still digesting this episode. I'm glad Stabler is dead. I'm sure the Marthas have cleaned up this type of mess before.. but its probably the women being injured or killed. 

Very satisfying to see Fred being arrested. If anyone is interested in how/why Fred was arrested, find the trailer for next week on YouTube. I don't want to post it here as it's very spoilery.

I posted that in the spoiler thread if anyone wants to see it.  Basically though?  Many people here were

Spoiler

correct last week.  Serena set him up, she's finally done with his bullshit.

4 hours ago, dmc said:

My only thought is I don't care what deal Serena made, she's a criminal too.  Arrest her.  And don't give her Nicole/Holly.

I would be completely shocked if they give her anything more than visits with Holly.  They promised her help with fertility.  June's the only one who knows about the assisted rape at 9 months pregnant, but even so...deals are cut for things like this all the time.  She turned over a big fish, I don't think they will prosecute her.

My complete guess is that she, a powerful speaker and writer, joins the resistance to Gilead by exposing more and more in a public way to help bring it down.  She's far more valuable that way to the people still enslaved in Gilead. 

Also, that should give her scenes with Moira, which will be fun.  Moira will have to be in at that trial, since she can testify about Fred and Jezebels.  That should really throw Serena into even more anti-Gilead public condemnation. 

My only fear is that we will have Serena waffling about Fred, and we probably will, but Moira may snap her the rest of the way out of whatever "love" she still has for him.

3 hours ago, HollyG said:

Yes, she is a criminal. I agree she should never see Holly again. Perhaps she can't fully redeem herself, but I'm interested to see what else she can do to help the resistance. This is a pretty big defection for Gilead.  

That, to me, will be the most interesting story they could tell here.  Her speaking and writing helped create Gilead, maybe they can help bring it down.

3 hours ago, maggiegil said:

I loved it, hands down the best episode of the season.

Winslow being gone and Fred being jailed given that they were the ones against Lawrence could get him back his power and mean he has the codes back etc. If he was serious about taking down Gilead and not just concerned for his wife and himself, he could make a move and change things given hes the only one who knows Winslow is gone but I doubt that will happen

Waterford really wasn't thinking it through, even if he hadn't been arrested theres no way the Nicole plan would have worked. Did Fred think they could just show up with a child that has been negotiated over for months and no one would question why she was just handed over.

Did Mrs. Lawrence come back when he did? We didn't see her, right or did I miss something. I was kind of expecting a reveal that Joseph had murdered her or something to end her suffering when he discovered he couldn't get them out.

It will be interesting to see how Winslow is dealt with, will they assume hes a traitor or will foul play be assumed?

Will Serena be well known in Canada given the videos? I hope she doesn't get off for this.

Waterford has always been full of hubris.  Look at the scene when he's surrounded!  He is STILL trying to boss people around.  Finally, it bit him in the ass, thanks to Serena.  I wonder if that's why she had sex with him?  Was it need or was it to make sure he didn't question her as she lead him to capture?

Not sure about Eleanor, but she's probably up in her room

They may not even find Winslow's body, but it could be interesting.  "Where was he last seen?"  Ummm, uhhhh, well....

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I presumed she did set him up, with the end being she is reunified with Nicole in Canada. 

So many guessed this last week! 

Spoiler

Congrats to all of you! 

There is a video in the spoiler thread, just an inside the episode that clarifies this for you.

---

I loved it!  There are quibbles of course, but in general?  Forward movement!  Spy Guy!  Fred arrested!  Serena out of Gilead which should have interesting results!  The International Court!  Canada working with the USA!~ 

All great stuff, forward moving and it makes me hopeful for the future of this show.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Ramona said:

Yes, this!  I was thinking about this, this morning while brushing my teeth. (TMI, I know)  But a Martha storyline or even a look at the resistance network, would have made this season a little more tolerable.  It's a shame that the show waits until the last 3 to 4 episodes to get interesting.  What a waste.  

We've been getting a lot of the Martha storyline for quite a while now...it's all being revealed, slowly, like June's transformation from selfish and dumb to more of a flat out, I don't care if I die, we must do something revolutionary.

At least in this episode, so much happened, so much forward movement and things, significant things, are happening.

[rubinia]

I didn't want June to get raped, and Commander Stabler wasn't a good guy so I'm not sad he died, but when June went to Jezebel's she had to at least consider the possibility that someone there would recognize her, right? What was her plan? What did she think would happen if a commander was there that she knew? Again, not blaming the victim at all, but...I just don't understand what her endgame was. She could just walk in to Jezebel's by herself and no one batted an eye?

1 hour ago, dmc said:

she deserves to be arrested as well.  I am going to be pissed if she gets to make a new life wherever.  

She probably made a deal to trade Fred for immunity to live in Canada with Nicole.

And cue the Kate Bush end music (of course).

Edited July 31, 2019 by rubinia

[Umbelina]

Just now, rubinia said:

I didn't want June to get raped, and Commander Stabler wasn't a good guy, but when June went to Jezebel's she had to at least consider the possibility that someone there would recognize her, right? What was her plan? What did she think would happen if a commander was there that she knew? Again, not blaming the victim at all, but...I just don't understand what her endgame was. She could just walk in to Jezebel's by herself and no one batted an eye?

Why would commanders recognize her?  She wears that white wimple in public.  The only commanders that have ever really looked at her without the hood are Fred, Lawrence, and, unluckily for her, Winslow.

I'd bet she was pretty sure she might be hit on, and probably had a plan to avoid that, the way it was avoided when Fred took her there, she's "with" someone.  Winslow being there was a fluke though. 

[dmc]

3 minutes ago, rubinia said:

I didn't want June to get raped, and Commander Stabler wasn't a good guy so I'm not sad he died, but when June went to Jezebel's she had to at least consider the possibility that someone there would recognize her, right? What was her plan? What did she think would happen if a commander was there that she knew? Again, not blaming the victim at all, but...I just don't understand what her endgame was. She could just walk in to Jezebel's by herself and no one batted an eye?

She probably made a deal to trade Fred for immunity to live in Canada with Nicole.

And cue the Kate Bush end music (of course).

I think so too and I think it's terrible first Fred while high up won't destroy the movement and she needs to be in jail

[rubinia]

 

 

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3 minutes ago, rubinia said:

I didn't want June to get raped, and Commander Stabler wasn't a good guy so I'm not sad he died, but when June went to Jezebel's she had to at least consider the possibility that someone there would recognize her, right? What was her plan? What did she think would happen if a commander was there that she knew? Again, not blaming the victim at all, but...I just don't understand what her endgame was. She could just walk in to Jezebel's by herself and no one batted an eye? I feel like it would have made more sense to have Commander Lawrence there WITH her.

She probably made a deal to trade Fred for immunity to live in Canada with Nicole.

And cue the Kate Bush end music (of course).

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Why would commanders recognize her?  She wears that white wimple in public.  The only commanders that have ever really looked at her without the hood are Fred, Lawrence, and, unluckily for her, Winslow.

I'd bet she was pretty sure she might be hit on, and probably had a plan to avoid that, the way it was avoided when Fred took her there, she's "with" someone.  Winslow being there was a fluke though. 

Don't the other commanders that are friends of Fred's know who his handmaid was? Especially since she was so visible with the disappearance of Nicole, etc.

[tennisgurl]

Yeah lots of stuff happened here, some boring, some interesting, some nasty, but mostly I am  just happy as fuck because Freds nasty ass self is going down!! I swear I watched him get arrested three times in a row to take it all in. His stuttering protests being ignored by Suave American Guy and the soldiers arresting him, the cold stare down by the American brass, the llong ass list of his crimes, including kidnapping, slavery, and rape, it was amazing! I dont know how it happened, but I am just so glad it did. Could that be the sound of actual plot movement!? 

So did Serena turn him in, and thats why we had to sit through those tedious scenes of the Waterfords getting misty eyed about their relationship and their choices, because Serena felt bad about turning him over to get Holly? I mean, no way is she getting Holly back, no way is she going back to Gilead, especially with Holly, but maybe she can visit her if she gives them more information. Or did she have no idea this was happening and the Americans just took the opportunity to get Fred while he was on Canadian soil. Honestly, if the Canadians have been jerking Gilead around just to lure Fred in, I might actually forgive every bad thing I've said about Canada being spineless jellyfish about Holly all season. My one complaint about this might be that Serena could get off with a slap on the wrist if Fred gets executed or sent to prison for the rest of his miserable life. She happily committed treason just the same as he did, and was right by his side until it started to adversely affect her. 

Ideally, Fred and Serena live long lives locked up in maximum security prison seeing their precious Gilead torn to bits, the people they oppressed getting their chance to read them for filth, and knowing they will go down in history as cowards and traitors. Or, you know, we haven't used guillotines in awhile 😉 

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, rubinia said:

Don't the other commanders that are friends of Fred's know who his handmaid was? Especially since she was so visible with the disappearance of Nicole, etc.

Good point, they might have seen her on TV, but still, she had her story ready.  Her commander was a voyeur who liked to be told stories. 

Still, Winslow was up close and personal with her a few times.

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

Yeah lots of stuff happened here, some boring, some interesting, some nasty, but mostly I am  just happy as fuck because Freds nasty ass self is going down!! I swear I watched him get arrested three times in a row to take it all in. His stuttering protests being ignored by Suave American Guy and the soldiers arresting him, the cold stare down by the American brass, the llong ass list of his crimes, including kidnapping, slavery, and rape, it was amazing! I dont know how it happened, but I am just so glad it did. Could that be the sound of actual plot movement!? 

Preach!  I loved it all so much!  It was done extremely well too!

Previews of the next episode

Spoiler

confirm that Serena did turn in Fred, set him up completely (even sex!) and got immunity for that, and probably the promise of coconuts and fertility treatment along with a guy who isn't shooting blanks as donor.

I'm hoping Serena starts speaking and writing about the horrors of Gilead, the initial ideas of it being subverted into what it is.  As part of that "deal" she will probably have to testify against Fred, along with Moira!   Serena, a wife of a commander, would be a very effective tool in destroying Gilead...and I really hope that's where they are going.

[AnswersWanted]

7 hours ago, Ariam said:

I had to watch this on a bad internet connection in segments so I’C e forgotten most of the beginning. But woah what crap. 

That was the worse killing scene in tv history ever. Stabbing to death a person twice your size with A KNIFE is hard work but with a pen?? Through a shirt?!! She wouldn’t have been able to puncture his skin!! She would have left little pen marks on his shirt, that’s it. There is no way June could have ever killed him like that it was ridiculous. At least show her use something a bit more credible!!! I can’t believe people buy that shit and even exhault how great it was. And what happened to women being oppressed with no way out in Gilead? Oh right, it doesn’t apply to June anymore. She can just kill off the main guy with a fucking biro.

Also, apart from the ridiculousness of Tuello being able to leisurely drive into Gilead and take someone out on a road (wading through bushes like Moira did us much more credible, driving a car -not) what happened to check points inside Boston?? When Fred took June to jezebels she had to wear Serena’s coat to pass as her, then at the last check point she had to bend down and hide as “even wives are not allowed past this point”. Now she sits in the front seat wearing whatever and covered in blood????  These are small things where they could at least try to care. 

‘

Tell the truth. 

I could not agree with you more. 

I mean...I’ve seen more realistic murder scenes in cartoons. 

The least they could have done was given her some scissors or a broken piece of glass, something that can actually stab and pierce through human flesh. 

I felt like I was watching the cheesiest D quality movie that airs at 4 am. There was nothing believable about that scene. 

Just to start his punch should have knocked her out cold, you don’t just bounce back from that sort of blow from a man that size with hands that big.

At least she should have suffered a broken nose, chipped or lost teeth.

But no, that strike just activated Super!June’s wild cat like defenses and suddenly she’s grappling and sparring with this man like some goddamn MIA fighter. 

And somehow she walks away without a fucking scratch on her while he’s left in a pool of his own blood with teeny, tiny pen jabs to the chest and a crushed skull. 

This show has turned into the worst comic book ever.

It’s not even about how unrealistic it is, although that’s a huge problem, but they just don’t care that any of this is actually entertaining, it’s all just dumb movie action that’s all flash and no substance. 

They aren’t telling a story, they are showing scenes, to me that’s a big ass discrepancy and it’s destroying all the potential this show could still have. 

2 hours ago, jenn31 said:

The writers figured they’d have a winner with this pathetic episode (I see you giving yourselves pats on the backs) by throwing in the arrest. Get the viewers to cheer that Fred is going to finally get his, because we really don’t care about proper plot development. The whole thing was so poorly executed with so many plot holes. The entire episode was bad with so many boring parts to boot. My finger was hovering over the FF button on the remote. The timeline seemed all wrong too. Just how long have those muffins been sitting there? I was inspecting them for mold. I can’t wait up see the wives having at them. 

Right off the bat we’re supposed to cheer June on for stopping Eleanor from shooting Joseph (pat, pat, pat). I guffawed. I was praying hard that in a scuffle Eleanor would put a bullet in June. Of course June’s invisible body armor is as thick as her plot armor, no doubt, so I quickly canned that dream. 

As people have mentioned, the Marthas are so underused. That whole network and the Marthas’ backstories (nooooooo!) could be so interesting. Yet the only reason they are in the show is to pop up to aid June whenever she needs help (always!) in her rattlebrained schemes. What a waste of everyone on the show. 

Which brings me to Commander Winslow (you guys and his past roles naming, this show is confusing enough in its idiocy! 😄  ). Why bring in a big name like Meloni for a few episodes then kill any impending stories they hinted at? Which, I may add, were potentially more interesting than the usual crap they keep subjecting us to. We never even got a naked butt shot before his demise! Does he have a role in the same new show as Bradley Whitford? (Don’t get me started on the butchering of that character!) Whitford must be secretly stealing the cast members to his other show to salvage them from this rapidly declining mess of a show. Please Bradley, don’t take Moss with you!

 Preach. 

This show has become so devoid of a cohesive plot and compelling story, they just rely on cheap, short lived bursts of action so that people will stick around for the other 98% filler they actually produce.

This episode took too long to get here and yet at the same time wasn’t given enough time to seem credible at all. That’s quite a feat you accomplished, show runners. 

They keep skipping over everything that should be the main focus, the Marthas’ resistance, Commander a Lawrence or any of the other leaders in Gilead that aren't Fred, Canada, etc. 

But since Gilead is June’s universe now and everyone else is only so lucky enough to live in it, until she gets them killed that is, all we get is June on June on June bullshit with a little bit of the Waterford’s mixed in. 

Barf. 

Also I have the feeling the show is totally going to try and keep Serena as the “atoning” baddie, and while Fred gets taken to the woodshed of justice, she’ll merely be granted a pass. 

These show runners have spent way too much time making her “soft” now, all tears and regret and shit, so I could definitely see them doing that. 

I really didn’t think this show would actually have the Waterford’s getting to Canada before June but hey, I cannot be too surprised, this is how you win them Emmys, dragging shit out for 10 seasons...

I have always viewed Serena as being even worse than Fred because she actually betrayed her own group, women, with her push for power among the elite of this “new world”. ‘

She thought women like Emily, Moira, and June and Janine were less than her, were dirty, sinful sluts and gender traitors who deserved to be “returned to god’s service” under men and women like her. 

She got the “sads” only when she realized, too late, her vagina would also limit her as well in such a pro male world.

She was played for a stupid ass fool and took down countless others with her, she is the scum of the earth. 

Frankly I would love to see her hang first before Fred. I want the wench dead as a door nail. 

Hell, she’s a former writer, death by pen seems fitting to me. 

[Umbelina]

Forbes

I missed this part, good catch Forbes!

"She lies and says he sends her there to have her do things and then tell him about them later. Winslow tells her to get on the bed and lay on her stomach—we've established pretty clearly that he's gay at this point, and in order to rape her he needs to make believe she's not a woman."

I also agree with this part quite a bit.

"Thankfully, the Martha who finds her there, bloodied and beaten next to the corpse of (presumably) one of Gilead's most powerful men, doesn't turn her in. She was one of the women that June saved from the colonies. I'm not sure that detail needed to be inserted here; a Martha acting bravely and helping out a Handmaid in distress would make enough sense even if she didn't know who June was."

Fred finally in custody and the (finally!) forward movement of this story is my favorite thing about this episode though.  I love it, all I've ever wanted in answers and a bit of justice, and with the world involvement we may finally be getting some of those.  Also?  Fred in jail!  Woo!

"All of Waterford's politicking, the whole prayer campaign farce he created to win back Serena, all of it for nothing. It's really quite wonderful. Finally—finally—something good is happening in this show. Season 3 of The Handmaid's Tale has been bleak and often convoluted, with June all over the map and a lot of disparate stories fumbling all over the place. But finally we have June's original tormentors and rapists in custody.

This also means that the Winslow/Waterford power block is gone. This was the primary power block opposing Commander Lawrence, attempting to weaken his position to the point where they even showed up to make sure he was carrying out "The Ceremony" with June."

Obviously, more at link, but for me, it all boils down to this.  Major cracks in the armor of the commanders, and something on the world stage finally happening.  They took too much time getting there, and it wasn't perfect, but this is what I've been wanting since season two...and two more episodes to go! 

*please don't fuck it up writers*

ETA

I didn't notice at first, but Luke is there when the Waterfords are taken. That must have felt pretty damn good.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Umbelina
Luke was there!

[tennisgurl]

13 hours ago, Ramona said:

She should not get off in my book.  She is just as guilty and complicit as her creepy husband. 

Word. I hate that this show is trying to give Serena some kind of half assed redemption, and have tried to make us feel sorry for her losing her not actual baby. She is just as guilty as Fred in the destruction of the US government and the rise of Gilead, and everything that has happened. Maybe she didn't know HOW bad it would be, but she knew that innocent people would suffer and die, but she didn't care because it meant she got power and to create a world that benefits her, even if it hurts so many others. She thought that the people that would suffer were lesser than her because of who they loved or what they believed or any other stupid thing Gilead hates people for, and she has never been shown to have learned anything else. And now the only reason she is turning against them is because she wants something. Even though Holly is clearly better off in a country where she can learn to freaking READ or wont be drowned because she wants to be with someone other than her older designated husband or hung because she might like girls and can wear a pair of fucking jeans, she still wants her back.  Unless of course she expects to stay in Canada with her, to which I say "good luck with that". Yeah, have play dates with the evil genocide lady and her stolen rape baby who has now been stolen again! I just cant with Serena, I just cant. 

Maybe the reason I still enjoy Aunt Lydia in ways I cant with Serena anymore (even after her lame as fuck backstory) is because most of the moments that humanize Aunt Lydia are her feeling sorry for the bad treatment of "her girls" as hypocritical as that may be for a woman who attacks them with a battle prod, while the moments that exists to humanize Serena are usually bad things happening to HER. She rarely feels bad for other people and what they suffer because of what she did, its all about her.

Edited July 31, 2019 by tennisgurl

[AnswersWanted]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She lies and says he sends her there to have her do things and then tell him about them later. Winslow tells her to get on the bed and lay on her stomach—we've established pretty clearly that he's gay at this point, and in order to rape her he needs to make believe she's not a woman.

I actually like this reviewer over all but this bit is a huge stretch. 

Winslow could easily be bisexual and attracted to women as well, wanting sex doggystyle has nothing to do with sexual orientation, come on, that sounds like something a "gay sex analyst" would state on a show hosted by James Dobson or Franklin Graham.

"If your fella wants to hit that from the back, remember ladies, that probably means he's gay". 

Like what the hell? 

Yet no real indepth comment about Winslow's dumb as shit impossible death scene, yeah, okay. Priorities I guess. 

[rubinia]

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Forbes

I missed this part, good catch Forbes!

"She lies and says he sends her there to have her do things and then tell him about them later. Winslow tells her to get on the bed and lay on her stomach—we've established pretty clearly that he's gay at this point, and in order to rape her he needs to make believe she's not a woman."

Maybe, but honestly to me it almost looked like he was going to do some kind of footjob action with her. It looked like he was about to rub the shoes in his crotch. Not that June would have to be facedown for something like that, but it could even be that he didn't want to see her face or something.

[Umbelina]

Too Fab

Interesting review, citing both the glories and the problems in this episode.  I especially like the Serena/Fred speculation here, and think they are spot on.  It's later in the article.

"In an hour packed with more major developments and excitement than the rest of the season combined, "The Handmaid's Tale" heads down an unknown path of renewed danger and hope.

Two interweaving storyines climaxed in shocking developments on "The Handmaid's Tale" this week and suddenly the entire season is subverted into potential chaos and calamity. One thing we can't say anymore is that nothing is happening on this show!"

---

Forgot to mention another little touch I loved, Fred turning Oprah off on the radio.  Ha!

I think it was Fred's shoe/foot fetish that got him dead, she was able to get in a couple of deadly kicks with those spiked heels, which gave her a bit of a chance, at least stunned him a bit, since they were both to the head.

When he flipped her over I really didn't think at all about the whole bisexual or gay thing, just that he's a creep that enjoys domination.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Umbelina

[Olive]

When Serena observed the family that night, singing outside and fellowshipping with one another, that was what she thought her life would be when they formed Gilead.  That was the family and home life she gave up everything for.

[Umbelina]

51 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

I actually like this reviewer over all but this bit is a huge stretch. 

Winslow could easily be bisexual and attracted to women as well, wanting sex doggystyle has nothing to do with sexual orientation, come on, that sounds like something a "gay sex analyst" would state on a show hosted by James Dobson or Franklin Graham.

"If your fella wants to hit that from the back, remember ladies, that probably means he's gay". 

Like what the hell? 

Yet no real indepth comment about Winslow's dumb as shit impossible death scene, yeah, okay. Priorities I guess. 

I agree, that was a leap.

It's a long review though. 
Some people are glass half full, some are glass half empty though.  I bought Winslow's death scene, because it was an ugly and clumsy fight to the death.  It would have been better if she jabbed that pen into his eye/brain though...but if she had, some would complain about her knowing how to do that.

(It's what I would have done, but I've had a bit of training.)

Just re-watched this one, focusing especially on Fred's arrest.  I didn't see Luke at all.  Why have him there and not really show him?  That was weird.

[AnswersWanted]

50 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I agree, that was a leap.

It's a long review though. 
Some people are glass half full, some are glass half empty though.  I bought Winslow's death scene, because it was an ugly and clumsy fight to the death.  It would have been better if she jabbed that pen into his eye/brain though...but if she had, some would complain about her knowing how to do that.

(It's what I would have done, but I've had a bit of training.)

Just re-watched this one, focusing especially on Fred's arrest.  I didn't see Luke at all.  Why have him there and not really show him?  That was weird.

If they had June surprise Winslow from behind with a crack to the head, boom, he's down, now she has a clear advantage, especially if she cracked him hard enough.

I have had smaller girls I know fight off rapists before, it's probably the nastiest, scariest sort of fighting for a small female to engage in, it can be a fight to the death, and it is a feasible fight they can win. 

But instead of showing June as a human woman able to overcome Winslow in a reasonable manner, they basically had her playing out some Xena warrior princess fantasy. 

We all know she's not a trained fighter, as a handmaid she hardly gets to feed herself, she's in no kind of shape to take on a man like that unless she immediately had the upper hand and had a knife or anything actually sharp enough to puncture an artery or organ. 

From him punching her to slamming her face against the floor, June should have been incapacitated within seconds, she is only human. 

Yet the show wanted all that put in for dramatic effect, reason be damned, and that's my biggest issue above all.

I never wanted or asked for a bionic Handmaid who can take a full punch to the face and barely bat an eyelash, so this version of June holds no appeal for me. 

I didn't notice Luke there either, but then again my eyes were currently wedged in the base of my skull from all the eye rolling I'd been doing by that time...

[Umbelina]

Oh, I think she showed the effects of the fight, she was dazed, she was out of breath, she's covered in bruises, including the lump on her head, and her arms.

She struck a lucky blow, but that didn't kill him, it slightly incapacitated him and she cracked his skull in with that statue.

I've been in that kind of fight myself, and I agree, it's pretty easy for any man, not just one that's in the kind of shape Winslow's in, to overpower a woman.  I wasn't trying to kill him though, probably because I was in shock and unprepared (unlike June) and because he was the fiance of my best friend.  Even though I was overpowered though, I know that if he'd been a stranger or I was in fear of my life, I would have stopped trying to reason with him and looked for any weapon I could find.

I think it was more believable that June was clumsy and not efficient though.

I also agree that if Winslow had wanted to kill her, or even considered her any kind of threat to him physically?  He could have snapped her neck early on.  That wasn't what he was after though, he was after sex and control, and until she made that lucky stab (after multiple tries) I seriously doubt he was in any fear for his life. 

He was just "having fun" with a resisting woman, something that was probably different for him, therefore fun.

All that said?  Fight scenes are almost always ridiculous and I found this one no more ridiculous than most.

Aside from that though, I'm thrilled with the forward progress they've made here, so I'm happy with this one.  Thrilled actually.

[Nonja]

14 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

14 hours ago, LittleRed84 said:

You’ve mentioned this Keller person several times. Who am I missing? I don’t remember a Keller? 

That’s just my dumb little joke reference to the, now deceased, Commander Winslow. 

The actor, Christopher Meloni, played one of my favorite TV characters on the show “OZ” back in the day, a crazy killer called “Keller”. 

I still think of him as Keller from Oz as well.

[AnswersWanted]

All I can say is I liked the fight scene as much as I've liked this entire season, which is not at all. 

I miss the show that once made me emotionally feel something, at least something other than anger or annoyance. 

Everything comes across as cheap entertainment to me now. 

8 minutes ago, Nonja said:

I still think of him as Keller from Oz as well.

Gosh I adored that character so fucking much, heh.

This show totally wasted a boss of an actor, Meloni can produce gold with almost anything. 

Why couldn't HE have been secret government agent man????

Why god WHY????

[Angry Moldovan]

It was very up and down for me. There was progress when the Martha’s pulled rank on June, only then to relent.  Then Commander Lawerence betraying June only for him to wimper back. Then it picks up at Jezebels, we are shown the realities of the power in balance with her rape, but the super June kills him with a ball point pen. At this point the shark has left the water and is sunning its self up in Bora Bora. Then we have progress with Serena and Fred, yet alas they follow the American over water into Canada 🇨🇦. My hopes are raised to see Fred get his comeuppance, only to be dashed by the fact Serena has done a deal and probably won’t be held as complicit in rape. Also why is Canada such a veritable flip flopper  when it comes to Gilead

Edited July 31, 2019 by Angry Moldolvian

[Empress1]

4 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

Just to start his punch should have knocked her out cold, you don’t just bounce back from that sort of blow from a man that size with hands that big

I remember I once watched some show, I can't even remember the name of it, but one character was lying to the other about being in a fight, and the other one was like "Look at your hands." The liar's hands were smooth, unblemished. The other one held up his hands, which were cut and bloody and the knuckles were bruised, and he said "This is what hands look like when you've been in a fight." I thought of that when WinStabler punched her square in the face and then later her face was barely bruised. At BEST she'd be bruised, at worst she'd have a broken jaw or cheekbone or both and some loose, missing, or broken teeth. He also slammed her head into the floor. I've seen Meloni in person; he's a big guy (and fit, and hot; I saw him when we were both waiting for a light to change in NYC, standing on the same corner. He was jogging). He could have snapped her neck easily.

I assume Serena has immunity but I can't imagine she'll get the baby back (though I haven't watched about five episodes so I don't know where they are with that). It was a trip hearing them read their (yes, "their," because Serena is as guilty as Fred even if she has immunity) crimes. They are evil people.

When I saw Sam from Parenthood, I knew they were in for it, and then I put together all of Serena's behavior in the episode and assumed she'd turned him in. 

[AllyB]

Well I absolutely loved that Kate Bush song at the end. I didn't think I'd ever heard it before so I googled it and watched the music video which was directed by Terry Gilliam and stars Donald Sutherland. That did feel vaguely familiar to me, so possibly I saw it a few times when I was a kid. It's a great song though, I can tell I'll be playing it a lot in the next few days. And I'll add it to some of my playlists, driving and figure skating I think.

That's my main takeaway from the episode. I really enjoyed a 34 year old song.

[revbfc]

Spoiler

Wouldn’t it be hilarious if Luke hooks up with Serena?  And by “Hilarious,” I really mean “An on-brand shit move by the show.”

[trinistyles]

Utterly horrible!!!

This 🐥  chose coconuts & treason!!! Freedom, a baby of her own, (possibly); tell her story in her own words... "Cooperate..."??? How can you refuse a dying man's last request??? "Cum..." URGH!!! Utter rubbish... Loved this episode for the progress & hated it for the vehicle used to progress the story... Terribly anti-climactic... This episode was all Spirit of Moira... Jezebel's kill, road to Canada, border crossing, "keep your shit together!!!", etc.

[Joana]

I mean... they basically spoiled everything with the episode title alone. You just knew that there would be betrayal and that June's plan would fall apart (eh, kinda) and that either Fred or Serena would be setting each other up, except that from the moment of that scene with Rita it was more than obvious that it was going to be Serena, so none of this came as a surprise.

Except for June killing Commander Meloni. I did NOT see that coming! Until they met at the Jezebels, at which point it was the only plausible resolution left. But man, was that killing scene ridiculous. Of course a man of his size would easily overpower her. What kind of crap was that? June is basically morphing into Bride/Arya now, except that Kill Bill was actually entertaining and Arya was likeable, and this/she is not. And of course, Martha Ex Machina conveniently pops up. They took their sweet time disposing of the commander's body, so I don't understand why June couldn't have cleaned herself up instead of going outside the room all blood-stained - except for DRAMATIC! purposes, of course. Also, the show promised us that Commander Meloni would be gay. Booooo! I'm disappointed. Unless they were really going for the "he wants it doggy style because it's the only way he can get it up with a woman" angle, which... I can't. I really can't. And most importantly - what kind of vacuum cleaner IS that???!

As satisfying as it was to see Fred arrested, I still have some pretty major beef with that one. So, it basically happened because he was actually willing to give up on his power in order to have a quiet family life with his wife and baby? COME ON! Are you kidding me? GTFO. That's so wildly out of character that I don't even know where to begin. Throughout their entire conversation in the woods I just kept thinking "Isn't it a few years too late to have this discussion". Also, count me in among those wondering where the hell they were with absolutely no one watching over the roads. Oh, if only Moira and Emily had been aware of this magical road to freedom. And poor Commander Lawrence too, apparently. 

To sum it up, it was basically the same as last week. The good: stuff happens. The bad: almost none of it makes sense. 

[Quickbeam]

There’s no check point going into Canada? I’ve entered from the smallest dirt road in Montana and there is at least a sign!

Overall, loved it. Great fight with June and the commander. 

[Joana]

19 hours ago, chocolatine said:

- Why were the Gilead Homesteaders singing Dona Nobis Pacem from Catholic mass? I thought Catholicism was verboten under Gilead, and I even seem to remember seeing a bishop hang on the wall in S1.

The religious aspect of the show has been entirely thrown out of window this season. What used to be a brand new (and perversely fascinating) religion with a unique worldview is now reduced to "uhm, yeah, everyone is super-Christian". Among the utter lack of creativity and lazy writing that's plagued S3, this one is what probably bugs me the most. 

[revbfc]

13 minutes ago, Quickbeam said:

There’s no check point going into Canada? I’ve entered from the smallest dirt road in Montana and there is at least a sign!

That’s fair, but if Gilead can’t bring Vermont to heel, I’m going to let that slide.

OR: the soldiers prepared that area by removing the signs.

[Quickbeam]

34 minutes ago, Joana said:

And most importantly - what kind of vacuum cleaner IS that???!

I know! I really want one! 

[Joana]

You know, when Fred and Serena were talking and he mentioned how he thought she'd leave him for a man who could give her a child, there was something... sinister about him (probably unintentionally, as it turned out) and for a second I really believed he was going to be like "Bitch, I know you're trying to cross me, and now you're not getting out of these woods alive"; and that it would turn out that both of them were planning to betray each other the whole time. But then obviously nothing happened.

Frankly, that he was willing to along with her "plan" to leave everything they have in Gilead behind them so that they could get the baby back is so unbelievable and absurd to me that I can't fully enjoy him being arrested. 

[burghgal]

Gah --  Blast this show and Kate Bush for sucking me in during this last episode.  I've been cleaning whenever possible today, with that dang song in my head and thinking to myself "I am a bada$$ Martha --I got this".  They need to write a book with Martha Stewart, as their editor on how to keep things tidy during a dystopic regime !

[burghgal]

Quote

" There’s no check point going into Canada? I’ve entered from the smallest dirt road in Montana and there is at least a sign!"

 I was on that border as well, I stayed at a ranch in MT where they actually housed horses for the Canadian Mounties.  The border was a little fence and very easy to cross -- but you are right, there is "something" there.   My guess is that the Canadian government has an underground railroad type scheme going in the VT, NH area and thus they removed the signage and kept landmarks (aka bridge made with tree trunks) instead.  The area is very sparsely populated now, and the real barriers/checkpoints appear to be by population centers...Who knows the family the Waterfords visited, may have been part of the network-- didn't get a real good look at those "parents" to see if they looked like the rest of the family.

Edited August 1, 2019 by burghgal

[Ashforth]

1 hour ago, Quickbeam said:

I know! I really want one! 

@Quickbeam, please don't (or maybe do?) tell us why you need an industrial strength cleaning machine that can get a ton of blood out of your carpet. 😲

Your secrets are safe here.

[LittleRed84]

So we are to assume that Serena and Fred has sex? Or just had intimacy with cuddling and kissing? What are we supposed to be believing at this point?

[mamadrama]

7 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

I actually like this reviewer over all but this bit is a huge stretch. 

Winslow could easily be bisexual and attracted to women as well, wanting sex doggystyle has nothing to do with sexual orientation, come on, that sounds like something a "gay sex analyst" would state on a show hosted by James Dobson or Franklin Graham.

"If your fella wants to hit that from the back, remember ladies, that probably means he's gay". 

Like what the hell? 

Yet no real indepth comment about Winslow's dumb as shit impossible death scene, yeah, okay. Priorities I guess. 

Yeah, that comment about why he wanted her on her stomach was  bit of a stretch for me. He could be gay or bi, or he could just hate women so much that he doesn't want to look them in the eye during sex. FWIW, straight people often enjoy anal sex as well. 

While I do think he had a hard on for Fred, the review's simplifed commentary just rubbed me the wrong way.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, Joana said:

You know, when Fred and Serena were talking and he mentioned how he thought she'd leave him for a man who could give her a child, there was something... sinister about him (probably unintentionally, as it turned out) and for a second I really believed he was going to be like "Bitch, I know you're trying to cross me, and now you're not getting out of these woods alive"; and that it would turn out that both of them were planning to betray each other the whole time. But then obviously nothing happened.

Frankly, that he was willing to along with her "plan" to leave everything they have in Gilead behind them so that they could get the baby back is so unbelievable and absurd to me that I can't fully enjoy him being arrested. 

Thank you! That bugged me as well. So how was he going to explain Holly's arrival in Gilead? And after all his ass kissing he was just going to meet with a CIA op and have a clandestine chat? 

[Ashforth]

So yeah, we still have plenty of ridiculousness and plot holes, but I LOVED this episode.

Serena Joy absolutely knew she was leaving Gilead - her goodbye to Rita said it all.

She absolutely set Fred up - her walk down memory lane of "the way we were" and what could have been and confronting him about how he was a force behind her rights being taken away, and the final make up sex said it all.

Fred once again admitted that absent being able to subjugate Serena through Gilead's laws, he would have been "Mr. Serena Joy," and an infertile husband. Then he further proved himself to be no mental giant. "Where are we? We've been driving for a long time!" Fool, you're not in Gilead anymore. It seems that the Americans do have enough sway with the Canadian government that Canada will allow them to arrest American war criminals on Canadian soil. The personnel arresting him had American flag patches on their sleeves. I totally did not see that Luke was on the scene, that's an interesting twist.

Since they took Serena Joy to a vehicle that was separated from the others, I was expecting her to be asked if she was seeking asylum, as Emily was. TOTALLY DIFFERENT SITUATION, I AM AWARE.

Lawrence trying to run and being forced to come back because his authority has been revoked. Another step to him being more involved in the resistance.

Lawrence giving June the gun, "they'll be coming for us." Well, he and June know Winslow is dead, but they don't know that the Marthas at Jezebels "disappeared" him. They don't know that Fred has been arrested. It will be very interesting to see what happens (fingers crossed for some continuity - come on, show).

And finally for this post, how bad ass are the Marthas? They are BAD ASS.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Ashforth

[Joana]

Also, while I get that some suspension of disbelief is always necessary and I don't have a problem with that, really, but... 52 children? 52 CHILDREN??! At the same time? Give me a break.

Taking away just one child is incredibly risky, as June certainly should be aware of, as she was in on it herself (twice, no less!), but getting that many of them is simply ridiculous. It would take a massively coordinated effort to even have a slight chance of that plan working out, and if the resistance movement had that much manpower and resources available, they would have long liberated themselves from Gilead's rule. There's a much, much, MUCH bigger chance all those children would end up dead than freed and it's simply not worth it.

I know many characters have pointed out to June how crazy dangerous that plan is, but somehow they didn't quite manage to get that point across enough.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Joana

[Baltimore Betty]

20 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

So yeah, we still have plenty of ridiculousness and plot holes, but I LOVED this episode.

Serena Joy absolutely knew she was leaving Gilead - her goodbye to Rita said it all.

She absolutely set Fred up - her walk down memory lane of "the way we were" and what could have been and confronting him about how he was a force behind her rights being taken away, and the final make up sex said it all.

Fred once again admitted that absent being able to subjugate Serena through Gilead's laws, he would have been "Mr. Serena Joy," and an infertile husband. Then he further proved himself to be no mental giant. "Where are we? We've been driving for a long time!" Fool, you're not in Gilead anymore. It seems that the Americans do have enough sway with the Canadian government that Canada will allow them to arrest American war criminals on Canadian soil. The personnel arresting him had American flag patches on their sleeves. I totally did not see that Luke was on the scene, that's an interesting twist.

Since they took Serena Joy to a vehicle that was separated from the others, I was expecting her to be asked if she was seeking asylum, as Emily was. TOTALLY DIFFERENT SITUATION, I AM AWARE.

Lawrence trying to run and being forced to come back because his authority has been revoked. Another step to him being more involved in the resistance.

Lawrence giving June the gun, "they'll be coming for us." Well, he and June know Winslow is dead, but they don't know that the Marthas at Jezebels "disappeared" him. They don't know that Fred has been arrested. It will be very interesting to see what happens (fingers crossed for some continuity - come on, show).

And finally for this post, how bad ass are the Marthas? They are BAD ASS.

Finally an episode we can sink our teeth in to!  The Martha's at Jezebels handled Winslow and the clean up like pros which makes me wonder how often they have to do it. 

How odd that June thought her being at Jezebel's without her Commander would not raise any red flags, she really is a loose cannon.

I think Serena might be a double agent.

[Stripper Glitter]

 

 

 

 

21 hours ago, ferjy said:

What a shit episode.

*whispers* I liked it.

 

 

 

1

18 minutes ago, Joana said:

Taking away just one child is incredibly risky, as June certainly should be aware of, as she was in on it herself, but getting that many of them is simply ridiculous. It would take a massively coordinated effort to even have a slight chance of that plan working out,

Well, the LAPD coordinated having OJ framed, so.....

🙄🤣🤣

[Lemons]

22 hours ago, HeySandyStrange said:

Even though I saw it coming (I mean, did Fred really think the US government wasn't going to take their chance to capture one of Gilead's head hanchos?), it was satisfying to see the troops surrounding him, Spy Gut reading off Fred's many crimes, and the line of uniformed US officials giving him the fuck you! glare.

As usual, June fumbles and bumbles along, while others do all the heavy lifting. I guess somehow, she'll use her superpowers to somehow not end up on the wall for murder and her Black ops shit. I kind of love the Marthas, man. More then ever I want a Martha episode.

It feels like it's been forever since we've seen our peeps in Canada. I hope next week they will be celebrating Fred's capture.

  Reveal spoiler

You could see Serena buttering up Fred with complimenting how well the country has improving knowing her plan was to stay in Canada with the baby. I think Serena will be able to claim victim, women had zero power, her finger was cut off.

But WTF June?  Why’d she kick him all of a sudden?  And there is no way she could have got him down with a Bic pen.  Stupid.  

She couldn’t get herself cleaned  off and out of there but she’s supposed to be in charge of getting 52 children in a helicopter?  

[BrindaWalsh]

So Serena traded Fred for coconuts, immunity, and future opportunities to become a mother I'm assuming?  I don't think she will get Nichole back, but she did get confirmation from Fred, that he is shooting bullets and that he was the problem, not her.  

As for how they crossed that border, we have family in northern VT and they say it is easy to weave on through the local mountain roads and be in Canada and not realize it.  It looked like they had veered of of major roads and onto a dirt road in the mountains, as opposed to crossing over on NY87.  

I loved how they shot this episode. And oddly one of my favorite scenes was Serena driving down the highway.  The music selections were excellent, too. 

Was the Martha in commander Lawrence's house the martha from Jezebel's in season 1?  Am I the last to figure that one out???  The former chef?  She made that comment that she would be lucky if she got sent back to Jezebels.

And as for June - she has a very specific set of skills...

[Lemons]

22 hours ago, LittleRed84 said:

Ok so why all of a sudden June decides to slink to the floor and act like she’s scared and frozen... Get your ass up, wash the blood off, and go back to Lawrence. This isn’t your first trauma. They write this BS shit just to create unnecessary drama. 

I know, all the Martha’s risking death at every turn cool as a cucumber, every handmaiden working with the resistance show no emotion.  But there’s s****** June with her facial tics looking like she’s having a stroke every time something happens 

[Ashforth]

37 minutes ago, Joana said:

Also, while I get that some suspension of disbelief is always necessary and I don't have a problem with that, really, but... 52 children? 52 CHILDREN??! At the same time? Give me a break.

Taking away just one child is incredibly risky, as June certainly should be aware of, as she was in on it herself (twice, no less!), but getting that many of them is simply ridiculous. It would take a massively coordinated effort to even have a slight chance of that plan working out, and if the resistance movement had that much manpower and resources available, they would have long liberated themselves from Gilead's rule. There's a much, much, MUCH bigger chance all those children would end up dead than freed and it's simply not worth it.

I know many characters have pointed out to June how crazy dangerous that plan is, but somehow they didn't quite manage to get that point across enough.

Oddly enough, even though the logistics of getting 52 children out of their homes and into a truck or a plane at the same time are staggering, if one or two children were taken at a time it could be even more difficult. With each small taking, there would be a bigger risk of compromising the network, with the result of preventing future rescues. 

Of course, there is the issue of these kids thinking they're being kidnapped and not rescued. They're in the homes they know. To some extent, the only thing that would make sense would be for the Handmaid moms to be extracted along with their stolen children. 

And yes, June is insane. 

[chickenella]

3 hours ago, Joana said:

You know, when Fred and Serena were talking and he mentioned how he thought she'd leave him for a man who could give her a child,

So Fred knows he's infertile? Where does he think Nicole came from? Pardon me if it was shown already that Fred knew Nicole wasn't his baby, I can't remember if he knew or not. But that line stuck out to me as unusual.

I'm disappointed that we won't get to see any sex between Stabler and Waterford, or the swinging scene in Washington, lol. Pure speculation here but I do think Stabler was gay (or at least bi). This is a longshot: maybe he was a top, perhaps Lawrence knew about his orientation (since they go way back to the days they were golf buddies) and he wanted to give June something extra juicy to tell Lawrence. Omg, if that was true, did Stabler do the ceremony with the handmade face-down in the wife's crotch?! Teehee , I'm tired and loopy.

Also, what kind of pen was that? That wasn't any ordinary Bic, maybe a Mont Blanc fountain pen. I still find it hard to believe she could break the skin with it.

[ferjy]

2 HOURS AGO STRIPPER GLITTER SAID:

*whispers* I liked it.

———————————————————

Don’t start with me. 😄