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S04.E08: Years, Continents, Bloodshed

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On 8/30/2019 at 4:35 PM, Affogato said:

Well, at the end of the books she’d had some professional success and aclaim, her father was getting better, she had mac and wallace, both single and supportive, and her relationship with Logan seemed promising. By season 4 her father was failing and she was taking horrible soul killing jobs to keep him and the business afloat, all her friends were occupied elsewhere And logan was absolutely pushing for marriage-house -kids and Veronica, You don’t have to want what I want but if you don’t you can leave. Its an iltimatum, not support. Ultimatum. 

Anyway i think I’ going to try to forget about it. 

Not once did Logan give Veronica an ultimatum. He basically dropped the marriage thing after she freaked and ran out. She was the one who kept bringing it up and using it as some sort of weird excuse to be angry with him.

The only thing Logan brought up a few times was therapy, bc well Veronica deeply needed it whether her and Logan stayed together or not.

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On 9/1/2019 at 9:42 AM, Affogato said:

If Rob had any sense she would have gone into the fbI after stanford ir cia or just become a cop and gotten some job training. She would still have come back to see Logan when he called and would still have gone on leave to help her father and keep the business afloat and maybe got sucked into the PI business but she would have been an adult. Work exprience, consequences, self defence training.  It would have been a much better way to transition her to an adult PI. She would have had to overcome some of her insecurities and issues to function in an adult work environment. As we can assume Logan did.

she messed up in season 3. If dad was elected he wouldn’t have been hurt and would have a retirement plan. She owes him. In her mind, anyway. 

The hard core marshmallows rarely blame Rob for consistently and persistently writing them as incompatible, but they are never ever on the same page. There’s your problem, and it isn’t because he’s a bad writer. It is intentional. It is a theme. 

At the end of the books she thinks about her future children and she also thinks that her view of the future and Logan’s don’t mesh and that she will have to give in to him, because he is less flexible., if she stays with him. So maybe if he had been willing to quit the navy in a couple of years they’d already have children. He still doesn’t seem to be making allowances for her  is he quitting his job? Is he studying to be an accountant? Something that will allow mutual support? Uh, no. And no, i don’t think he should necessarily do one thing or another, but why should the one who wants the children the most be the one who will only pop in every couple of weeks to play with them (between beach volleyball engagements)  

In any sensible world the only reason to push for therapy with his long-term therapist is a power play on his part (or he’s a moron) (and the therapist is unethical). It is a move that seems like he is concerned for her but which really isn’t. I mean it is clear if he coos over one more infant, Wallace’s or otherwise, she will hit him.  So buy a cheaper ring and pay for therapy with a therapist neither of them has history with.  Part of the issue is his inability to think that she might need  a lot of attention and a bit of sacrifice on his part. She is strong and needs noone, in his opinion. He deserves all he can get out of life  

 you are right, veronica needs to attend to her own needs and maybe if she did Logan would do better by her. She is kind of a doormat in some ways  

It's like we didn't even watch the same show or read the same books...

If Veronica wanted him to quit the military, then she should at least bring that up to him. Logan is not a mind reader. 

Also wow, I don't get how you think Logan wanting her to go to therapy is some sort of power play. Veronica had major issues this season. She needed to talk to someone. Logan already had a therapist, so of course that is who he thinks of. They could have easily went to someone else if she would have even had the curtesy to at least talk about it with Logan.

Veronica, a doormat? Yeah, I think not. She walked all over everyone this season, especially Logan. 

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6 hours ago, marshmallows said:

Not once did Logan give Veronica an ultimatum. He basically dropped the marriage thing after she freaked and ran out. She was the one who kept bringing it up and using it as some sort of weird excuse to be angry with him.

The only thing Logan brought up a few times was therapy, bc well Veronica deeply needed it whether her and Logan stayed together or not.

Proposing marriage is relationship changing. By springing it on her and then dropping it—refusing to talk about it or talk about his feelings—or acknowledging her feelings—well it is pretty passive aggressive. 

I don’t remember him saying anything about changing for her  when they talked about therapy he dismissed her financial concerns. 

There are reasons why his therapist wouldn’t see her alone or in a couple. One big one is that she would have preconceived notions of. veronica and it would be easy for v to think she was showing a preference (or vice versa) under many circumstances. Etc. but it does put logan in a position of power. He knows jane. He can manipulate the situation. It is a power play. 

It is a puzzling detail of the show. Why doesnt he get a recommendation from her? It is awkward and creepy. That is on Rob. It is clearly for the last scene. I guess. But it makes veronicas refusal of the therapy make sense. 

Edited by Affogato
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15 minutes ago, Affogato said:

There are reasons why his therapist wouldn’t see her alone or in a couple. One big one is that she would have preconceived notions of. veronica and it would be easy for v to think she was showing a preference (or vice versa) under many circumstances. Etc. but it does put logan in a position of power. He knows jane. He can manipulate the situation. It is a power play. 

It is a puzzling detail of the show. Why doesnt he get a recommendation from her? It is awkward and creepy. That is on Rob. It is clearly for the last scene. I guess. But it makes veronicas refusal of the therapy make sense. 

Agree that is entirely on Rob, just to get to the last scene and the voicemail (which Jane could have given her even if she saw a different therapist). It was definitely not intended to be Logan trying to manipulate her (and I don't think Logan came across that way, despite the weirdness of trying to get her to see his own therapist--something to blame on the writing). And I don't think Veronica's refusal was ever about Jane herself, really (although of course it wouldn't have been appropriate to see Logan's therapist). It was about therapy itself. Again, that's all on Rob, since what some people got from it, due to the dubious ethics behind something like that in real life, was clearly not what he intended. So, yeah, that's him being a poor writer.

Edited by redpencil
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On 9/1/2019 at 8:17 AM, BlackberryJam said:

Call me ridiculously practical, but Veronica would have had to be paying for Private health insurance. If she marries someone in the Navy, all that becomes free. There are tons of reasons, especially financial one, for a business owner who is struggling, to get married, especially to a member of the military.

I know she's not mercenary oh, but when it comes to health, she was willing to do anything for Keith.

Logan's health insurance would cover himself and Veronica. It would not extend to her father. 

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6 hours ago, marshmallows said:

It's like we didn't even watch the same show or read the same books...

Funnily enough season four is two different shows. First time around you are supposed to take veronica and Logan at face value. (Honestly i was sure he was going to die from the way he was presented and really pissed off by the way Veronica was presented, but ymmv). The second show starts at the end when we learn Veronica is telling the story in the past tense. She is guilty and hates herself and puts a bad spin on everything she says and does and shines an angelic light on the departed. Then you have to try to see past that to figure out what a tually happened—which is not what we saw. 

I’m not saying that this was really well done, by the way  i think there were flaws in the presentation. 

As for the books, yeah I do think Veronica was ready to try ‘domestic bliss’ and realizes Logan isn’t ready. This time the tables are turned. It is the story of their lives. 

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1 hour ago, redpencil said:

Agree that is entirely on Rob, just to get to the last scene and the voicemail (which Jane could have given her even if she saw a different therapist). It was definitely not intended to be Logan trying to manipulate her (and I don't think Logan came across that way, despite the weirdness of trying to get her to see his own therapist--something to blame on the writing). And I don't think Veronica's refusal was ever about Jane herself, really (although of course it wouldn't have been appropriate to see Logan's therapist). It was about therapy itself. Again, that's all on Rob, since what some people got from it, due to the dubious ethics behind something like that in real life, was clearly not what he intended. So, yeah, that's him being a poor writer.

I see that therapy is a luxury, not just that it is expensive, but that it requires that more basic needs are being met. Food, shelter, friends but for Veronica and Logan both a certain level of stress (because previous trauma has conditioned them to expect it). Veronica is in no position to be self actualizing.  She probably has been at other times in her life. 

Yeah I think it is badly written. Also a lot of people assume she is in therapy at the end but I think she has just gone to see Jane because Jane knew Logan and for closure. I don’t think Veronica is going to grow moving forward. 

Edited by Affogato
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3 hours ago, General Days said:

Logan's health insurance would cover himself and Veronica. It would not extend to her father. 

Of course not, but Mars Investigations is paying for Veronica's insurance. Cut out that cost, and there is more money to throw at Keith's health or HSA account.

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23 hours ago, Affogato said:

Proposing marriage is relationship changing. By springing it on her and then dropping it—refusing to talk about it or talk about his feelings—or acknowledging her feelings—well it is pretty passive aggressive. 

I don’t remember him saying anything about changing for her  when they talked about therapy he dismissed her financial concerns. 

There are reasons why his therapist wouldn’t see her alone or in a couple. One big one is that she would have preconceived notions of. veronica and it would be easy for v to think she was showing a preference (or vice versa) under many circumstances. Etc. but it does put logan in a position of power. He knows jane. He can manipulate the situation. It is a power play. 

It is a puzzling detail of the show. Why doesnt he get a recommendation from her? It is awkward and creepy. That is on Rob. It is clearly for the last scene. I guess. But it makes veronicas refusal of the therapy make sense. 

I guess I can see that POV of Logan being passive aggressive about the marriage proposal, but I just don't personally feel like that was the intent. Veronica said no and abruptly ran out. In that situation she should be the one to bring the conversation back up because she ran out in the middle of one. He probably just didn't want to stir the pot anymore than it already had been stirred.

Dismissed her financial concerns? Where are you getting this from? 

I can see the ethical issues with seeing your significant other's already established therapist. I still don't think it was a power play. If I had been seeing a therapist that I felt like was really helping me cope and become a better more self aware person, it would be the first recommendation I would give to my partner if I saw him struggling. I have no ill intentions behind it. It's just who I know and what I know. I think that's all Logan was trying to do here. And again, as I said before if Veronica had at least entertained the idea of therapy they could have discussed all of this and she could have found a different therapist or decided not go with through with it. What is concerning is how dismissive she is to even consider it and talk to him about it.

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22 hours ago, marshmallows said:

I guess I can see that POV of Logan being passive aggressive about the marriage proposal, but I just don't personally feel like that was the intent. Veronica said no and abruptly ran out. In that situation she should be the one to bring the conversation back up because she ran out in the middle of one. He probably just didn't want to stir the pot anymore than it already had been stirred.

Dismissed her financial concerns? Where are you getting this from? 

I can see the ethical issues with seeing your significant other's already established therapist. I still don't think it was a power play. If I had been seeing a therapist that I felt like was really helping me cope and become a better more self aware person, it would be the first recommendation I would give to my partner if I saw him struggling. I have no ill intentions behind it. It's just who I know and what I know. I think that's all Logan was trying to do here. And again, as I said before if Veronica had at least entertained the idea of therapy they could have discussed all of this and she could have found a different therapist or decided not go with through with it. What is concerning is how dismissive she is to even consider it and talk to him about it

I am always struck by how little they actually have in common and how little fun they have together, this was emphasized. This makes it hard for me to root for them as a romantic pairing. I hate that veronica apparently does nothing off screen and has never grown or changed. 

Veronica is telling this story  she gives Logan’s behavior a positive spin and her own is judged harshly   Jane is the place where you see what is happening, so I wish it had been done better. 

Look, wallace has a new child  veronica visits, buys him things. Goes to parties even when she doesn’t like a lot of his friends. She isn’t as awful as she says she is. I would bet she wasn’t that drunk with the gun, either  and Logan’s job isn’t superspy, because that makes very little sense  

 But Logan was clearly deliberately not communicating with her  perhaps he doesn’t trust himself but stonewalling her is not great behavior. Maybe he is scared to talk outside of therapy  he is being a pod person, not open and himself and that is apparently because he is afraid of what he will say or do. Bit veronica isn’t horrible for trying to talk about it even if she gets too angry.  Also the sex apparently wasn’t the best and you know that had come up before the blow out. 

I think she was afraid they would break up if they talked honestly.  

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7 hours ago, Affogato said:

I am always struck by how little they actually have in common and how little fun they have together, this was emphasized. This makes it hard for me to root for them as a romantic pairing. I hate that veronica apparently does nothing off screen and has never grown or changed. 

Veronica is telling this story  she gives Logan’s behavior a positive spin and her own is judged harshly   Jane is the place where you see what is happening, so I wish it had been done better. 

Look, wallace has a new child  veronica visits, buys him things. Goes to parties even when she doesn’t like a lot of his friends. She isn’t as awful as she says she is. I would bet she wasn’t that drunk with the gun, either  and Logan’s job isn’t superspy, because that makes very little sense  

 But Logan was clearly deliberately not communicating with her  perhaps he doesn’t trust himself but stonewalling her is not great behavior. Maybe he is scared to talk outside of therapy  he is being a pod person, not open and himself and that is apparently because he is afraid of what he will say or do. Bit veronica isn’t horrible for trying to talk about it even if she gets too angry.  Also the sex apparently wasn’t the best and you know that had come up before the blow out. 

I think she was afraid they would break up if they talked honestly.  

They actually have a lot in common. You and I have actually had this discussion on this forum in the past but in a different thread, so I don't really feel like going over that again.

Sure Veronica went to Wallace's party, but instead of being a decent friend she makes up weird lies about herself to mock his friends and then gets stoned in his bathroom. And no she wasn't drunk with the gun at all. She smoked weed, so she was high and shooting a gun.

Noone said that Logan's job was superspy. If Veronica did, she was joking. He is a Naval Intelligence officer who deals with a lot of top secret information that he isn't allowed to share with his partner. Hell my boyfriend is just an electrical engineer. But, he works for a nuclear power company and even he has "secret" information about his job that he can't share with me.

Logan got shot down pretty brutally. I'm not saying they shouldn't talk about it, bc they should. But, he probably figured that there was no point. She was clear about not wanting to get married. And I think he felt like that a no to his proposal didn't change him wanting to be with her.

Calling him a pod person whether it's you or Veronica is incredibly insensitive. He is trying to get better and work on his anger. Instead of Veronica being supportive of him conquering his mental illness, she pretty much makes him feel terrible about it. 

Their sex looked pretty great to me. Not sure where you are getting that from at all. I would say if they were 100% good in any department of their relationship, it would definitely be the sex one. 

Edited by marshmallows
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On 9/4/2019 at 9:11 PM, marshmallows said:

They actually have a lot in common. You and I have actually had this discussion on this forum in the past but in a different thread, so I don't really feel like going over that again.

Sure Veronica went to Wallace's party, but instead of being a decent friend she makes up weird lies about herself to mock his friends and then gets stoned in his bathroom. And no she wasn't drunk with the gun at all. She smoked weed, so she was high and shooting a gun.

Noone said that Logan's job was superspy. If Veronica did, she was joking. He is a Naval Intelligence officer who deals with a lot of top secret information that he isn't allowed to share with his partner. Hell my boyfriend is just an electrical engineer. But, he works for a nuclear power company and even he has "secret" information about his job that he can't share with me.

Logan got shot down pretty brutally. I'm not saying they shouldn't talk about it, bc they should. But, he probably figured that there was no point. She was clear about not wanting to get married. And I think he felt like that a no to his proposal didn't change him wanting to be with her.

Calling him a pod person whether it's you or Veronica is incredibly insensitive. He is trying to get better and work on his anger. Instead of Veronica being supportive of him conquering his mental illness, she pretty much makes him feel terrible about it. 

Their sex looked pretty great to me. Not sure where you are getting that from at all. I would say if they were 100% good in any department of their relationship, it would definitely be the sex one. 

The whole maloof security stuff is all fantasy (besides letting dohring show off some stunt skills) and it is cartoon superspy stuff. Veronica wasn’t there. He likely told her as little as possible because he doesn’t want her in that part of his life. “If you hear about a hotspot in the world, I am off to cool it off!” 

it the sex was good she wouldn’t be having a problem with it. And she was, except when he lost control of himself and then HE didn’t like it. That’s a problem. 

He wouldn’t have had to keep such tight control of he trusted himself enough to let her in  if he let her in she could have trusted him  

Edited by Affogato

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8 hours ago, Affogato said:

The whole maloof security stuff is all fantasy (besides letting dohring show off some stunt skills) and it is cartoon superspy stuff. Veronica wasn’t there. He likely told her as little as possible because he doesn’t want her in that part of his life. “If you hear about a hotspot in the world, I am off to cool it off!”  

it the sex was good she wouldn’t be having a problem with it. And she was, except when he lost control of himself and then HE didn’t like it. That’s a problem. 

He wouldn’t have had to keep such tight control of he trusted himself enough to let her in  if he let her in she could have trusted him  

I know the voiceovers are Veronica's later hindsight, but I really don't think we were supposed to see everything they showed on screen through that lens, wondering what was true or not. As you're right, there were plenty of scenes without Veronica in them. I think we're supposed to take the scenes as presented, and as what actually happened. It's just Veronica's voiceovers that are her interpretation tinted with hindsight/guilt. I also never got the interpretation that Veronica was unsatisfied with the sex. Just because she really like that one time doesn't mean she was unsatisfied with the rest. But I guess YMMV.

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2 hours ago, redpencil said:

I know the voiceovers are Veronica's later hindsight, but I really don't think we were supposed to see everything they showed on screen through that lens, wondering what was true or not. As you're right, there were plenty of scenes without Veronica in them. I think we're supposed to take the scenes as presented, and as what actually happened. It's just Veronica's voiceovers that are her interpretation tinted with hindsight/guilt. I also never got the interpretation that Veronica was unsatisfied with the sex. Just because she really like that one time doesn't mean she was unsatisfied with the rest. But I guess YMMV.

There are scenes she knows nothing about, the latte comes to mind. But yes i do think she is harshly judging herself and making Logan too perfect. And there are clues that he isn’t that perfect and she isn’t that bad. I think the o er the top fight scene, etc, are some of them.  Too much hyperbole. And the sex—where is the good to offset it?

However the whole thing is flawed. 

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11 hours ago, Affogato said:

The whole maloof security stuff is all fantasy (besides letting dohring show off some stunt skills) and it is cartoon superspy stuff. Veronica wasn’t there. He likely told her as little as possible because he doesn’t want her in that part of his life. “If you hear about a hotspot in the world, I am off to cool it off!” 

it the sex was good she wouldn’t be having a problem with it. And she was, except when he lost control of himself and then HE didn’t like it. That’s a problem. 

He wouldn’t have had to keep such tight control of he trusted himself enough to let her in  if he let her in she could have trusted him  

The entire show is fantasy, if you really want to pick a part everything about it. 

I am very confident in Logan not being able to tell V about his job due to security purposes. It has nothing to do with him not wanting her to be a part of his life. Did you miss the part, where I explained that my bf who is just an electrical engineer for a nuclear power plant even has things about his job he can't share with me due to security reasons. And trust me, his job is much less intense and security sensitive than a Naval Intelligence officer's would be.

She didn't have a problem with it. I have no idea where you are getting this from. Only he seemed to be upset about how that night went down when he punched the wall and then they had sex. Idt that meant he thought the sex was bad, just that he didn't like that he lost control and that seemed to be a turn on for her.

Funny you bring that up about letting her in, bc I feel like it's the opposite. It's Veronica who won't let Logan in. She doesn't really let anyone in.

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you know, if RT and KB wanted to write Logan out of the story, all they had to do was the same thing they did to Max, say he was out of the country.  And if they wanted to break the two up, just write some scenes that incorporated Logan's therapy, realization that Veronica, in her current condition, was toxic for him, that his job was not going to improve things between them, and there you go.  Painful for the LoVer shippers, sure, but at least he'd be alive (and could always bring him back for an episode in a future series). 

Killing Logan, especially in this terrible way the worst.  There is no reason why the police didn't confiscate Penn's bag from Veronica's car when he was arrested, or even for Veronica to forget Penn left this big backpack in her car when she knew for sure he was the bomber.

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1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

you know, if RT and KB wanted to write Logan out of the story, all they had to do was the same thing they did to Max, say he was out of the country.  And if they wanted to break the two up, just write some scenes that incorporated Logan's therapy, realization that Veronica, in her current condition, was toxic for him, that his job was not going to improve things between them, and there you go.  Painful for the LoVer shippers, sure, but at least he'd be alive (and could always bring him back for an episode in a future series). 

Or they could have done what they did in the first book. Have Logan overseas and have them Skype or Face Time or whatever people do now.  Veronica could still go on the road if RT is determined to get her out of Neptune. But then Veronica wouldn't be free to hookup with new men which I'm convinced is the reason Logan was killed.

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6 hours ago, blondiec0332 said:

Or they could have done what they did in the first book. Have Logan overseas and have them Skype or Face Time or whatever people do now.  Veronica could still go on the road if RT is determined to get her out of Neptune. But then Veronica wouldn't be free to hookup with new men which I'm convinced is the reason Logan was killed.

Which makes no sense. Veronica was never the hook up type of girl. She was a relationship girl or a single girl. Her going around the US sleeping w/everyone is so Jessica Jones to me. Which is fine! I kinda loved that they wrote JJ that way. Not every girl has to fall in love every time she has sex. It was interesting to see a female character own her sexuality and be the "player."  But, that was all in character for JJ. She never went OOC. The show set her up that way from the beginning. The show did not set Veronica up that way. I know people change, but that just seems like an extreme change for V. And not one I will personally be watching if they take the show in that direction.

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6 hours ago, blondiec0332 said:

But then Veronica wouldn't be free to hookup with new men which I'm convinced is the reason Logan was killed.

I really disagree. The brutal unexpected death of a loved one is the classic beginning of the hero's arc and the standard start to the hero's journey. This is just the showrunners living the cliche.

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5 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

The brutal unexpected death of a loved one is the classic beginning of the hero's arc and the standard start to the hero's journey.

Isn't that the story of Season 1?

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On 9/9/2019 at 4:02 AM, possibilities said:

Did anything else happen this season, or was it just a couple of scenes of Veronica and Logan?

Not much happened and what did is wrapped up. Mercer, etc, still in jail. Keith better, has girlfriend, back to work. Mattie school and new dad figure. Big dick, dead. Cartel guys finished their vacation. Wallace still likes V but tied up with his happy life. Mac in Instanbul. Finished stories. So are Logan and Veronica But that wasn’t ended, it was cut off suddenly, so people will look for the ending. 

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On 9/8/2019 at 10:24 PM, marshmallows said:

The entire show is fantasy, if you really want to pick a part everything about it. 

The sex where Logan lost control was the sex she liked...i don’t know what Logan was doing for work but I doubt it was what we saw, veronica was imagining. Because that isn’t a real job.  So whatever. 

Thomas has always written logan and veronica as a dysfunctional couple that don’t want the same things. Is this a surprise or wishful thinking?  

look, i wanted veronica to strike out and find herself and become a hero. Now i think thomas isn’t up to it and he’s destroyed the fanbase and thrown out a lot of the people she could play against. So it sucks. 

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On 9/9/2019 at 10:31 PM, AudienceofOne said:

I really disagree. The brutal unexpected death of a loved one is the classic beginning of the hero's arc and the standard start to the hero's journey. This is just the showrunners living the cliche.

I was hoping she was moving on in the heroes story. Mentoring, etc. but no. 

On 9/10/2019 at 4:25 AM, KAOS Agent said:

Isn't that the story of Season 1?

Yes it really looks like it is a reboot, without the other characters. 

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The sex where Logan lost control was the sex she liked...i don’t know what Logan was doing for work but I doubt it was what we saw, veronica was imagining. Because that isn’t a real job.  So whatever. 

I still don't think any of what we saw on screen is supposed to be taken as "fantasy" or Veronica imagining, even the scenes with Veronica in them. What we saw is what happened, in all cases. If "naval intelligence officer" in the way they presented it isn't a real job, that's because this is a tv show (and the writers didn't do enough research). In the world of the show, that's what Logan was (though obviously we didn't get many details of what that entails, so that part is up to interpretation or trying to read between the lines).

And I also still don't agree that we're supposed to think that was the only sex she liked. The reunion scene, which was the only other glimpse we saw into their sex life, was presented as nothing but positive and enjoyable for both. To me the point was more about them being on different pages emotionally (in terms of personal growth, Veronica not accepting/understanding Logan's efforts on that front or seeing any need for herself to grow, etc.), not meant to be taken as representative of their sex life in general. They just used that one particular time (and specifically Logan losing control as the lead in) as an extension or symbol of that. But since really there was very little in the show about their sex life at all, I guess everyone is going to stick to their own interpretations of those minimal scenes we saw, without the presence of additional evidence to go on. For me, though, taken as a whole, I definitely didn't get that they had problems in the bedroom. Their issues were a host of things outside of that.

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look, i wanted veronica to strike out and find herself and become a hero. Now i think thomas isn’t up to it and he’s destroyed the fanbase and thrown out a lot of the people she could play against. So it sucks. 

Yeah, it's unfortunate. I don't think he sees it as him lacking as a writer, but that's what it is, IMO. And the problem is him not recognizing that--if he struggled with seeing a way forward with the characters and relationships he had, that's why you really put in the work to figure it out, and you collaborate with your other writers to do that. But he was too rigid and single-minded in where he wanted to take Veronica that he lost sight of what was good about his own show (and where he wants to take Veronica doesn't seem to be what most fans are interested in, anyway).

With where Veronica was at the beginning of the season and what was set up on screen, it would make more sense for Veronica to actually grow, and still have her existing relationships in whatever form they evolve into, rather than what he did. And there was no growth at all (just deciding to marry Logan and having one tacked on therapy scene certainly doesn't count).

Whether he gets another season or not, I don't know, but he squandered something really cool in the devoted fanbase he had (after 15 years!) and the show he had created (which includes all its characters and relationships and Neptune itself, not just Veronica). For no good reason.

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On 9/14/2019 at 9:00 AM, redpencil said:

Yeah, it's unfortunate. I don't think he sees it as him lacking as a writer, but that's what it is, IMO. And the problem is him not recognizing that--if he struggled with seeing a way forward with the characters and relationships he had, that's why you really put in the work to figure it out, and you collaborate with your other writers to do that. But he was too rigid and single-minded in where he wanted to take Veronica that he lost sight of what was good about his own show (and where he wants to take Veronica doesn't seem to be what most fans are interested in, anyway).

With where Veronica was at the beginning of the season and what was set up on screen, it would make more sense for Veronica to actually grow, and still have her existing relationships in whatever form they evolve into, rather than what he did. And there was no growth at all (just deciding to marry Logan and having one tacked on therapy scene certainly doesn't count).

Whether he gets another season or not, I don't know, but he squandered something really cool in the devoted fanbase he had (after 15 years!) and the show he had created (which includes all its characters and relationships and Neptune itself, not just Veronica). For no good reason.

I totally agree. Just came back to this forum to see if hindsight and new opinions could make me wanna watch the show again. Nope, still bitter. Was there no one to tell him this was a terrible idea? Geez...

And btw, I find it ironic that he decided to kill a character in order to write the better story lines he wants to write, but did so with a terrible story line that only makes sense if you squint and wave away a bunch of inconsistencies. Sure, that'll make us confident ya know what ya doing Rob.

 

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I didn’t like this season, but reading this thread has made me even more disappointed in how much it could have been good. I’m not a huge fan of killing off Logan but if they were set on doing that, it should have been the season-long mystery, with their relationship in flashbacks, like the first season. All the stuff about Veronica being hesitant and him being in therapy and wanting to get married could have been in flashbacks and could have subtly contributed to his murder somehow, thus contributing to her guilt and her desire to leave Neptune at the end of the season. At the end she solves Logan’s murder, with a lot of emotional resonance. That would have been a fitting tribute to such a major character. What they actually gave us was just offensively cheesy and stupid. 

And then they could still do this thing of her leaving town for the next season if they want. (I wouldn’t mind seeing her hook up with Leo in the future, they’re hot together and Leo looks more appealing these days than Logan does). 

The only good thing about this revival is that its prompted me to start re-watching season 1. The writing was so good! The plot made a lot of sense and had emotional resonance! Logan was so attractive and appealing! (And not actually in most of the episodes).  Veronica wasn’t such an ass to everyone for no reason! I miss this show and the revival just made me miss it more. 

It is interesting how bad bullying Logan is at the beginning of the series though, really actively going out of his way to pick on her and gang up on her with groups of guys and sexual comments - in real life I’d never trust someone who did that. There’s a lot of fiction in our pop culture that reinforces the idea that women should hang on for the mean bad boy to love them, that he must just be being mean because he cares so much and has so much emotional pain but really he’ll come around, and I wonder how many lives it damages. In real life, I would absolutely choose and recommend my friend to choose someone like Piz (I haven’t rewatched his part recently and just remember him being nice and dependable). But on TV, I vastly prefer watching Logan. 

Edited by LeGrandElephant
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I just rewatched A Trip To The Dentist. Logan went from asshole to super understanding, though his behavior in the party flashbacks doesn’t make him look great. 

But the real thing I notice again is that Dick really crossed the line. He (attempted to) drugged Madison specifically because she wouldn’t put out and he was trying to make her, and he expressed this intention to Casey and what’s-his-name who gave him the drugs (so that guy is also guilty of something, but I don’t recall seeing him again). Besides that, he also carried a completely unconscious Veronica into the bedroom humming wedding bells for Cassidy, and told Cassidy to rape her. So, Dick didn’t technically rape anyone himself, but not for lack of trying, and he also went out of his way to set up Veronica being raped by his brother. 

That all would have been fine if they’d committed to Dick being a bad guy. Could have gotten some character growth for Logan in resisting that realization but eventually coming around to cutting Dick out of his life. Veronica could have organized some sort of comeuppance for him, legally or otherwise. 

Did Dick ever even give a marginal apology for what he did? Did anyone confront him - does he even know what happened? At one point Logan was ready to disown him just for being rude to Veronica but it doesn’t seem like they ever discussed his culpability in her rape - with intent, unlike Madison. 

But no, they just had to keep him around as a charming buffoon (because they liked the actor? And what, they didn’t like the Logan actor? Both decisions damaging to the show). 

They even could have possibly kept him around if they’d given him a serious redemption arc in season 3, maybe going to therapy and really confronting himself and the fallout with his brother and others. But to do that they’d have to have him admit just how bad what he did was, and apparently they just couldn’t face that. A real blow to the integrity of a show that is fundamentally about date rape. 

Keeping Dick around in the first place without acknowledging how bad he was is bad enough but once they’d done that it’s just criminal to have him mysteriously absent from  all the fallout involving his father and Logan in this revival season. What terrible, terrible decision making. 

Character development for Dick is missing from the entire series. 

Edited by LeGrandElephant
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Also, if they wanted her involved in big serious cases, they should have suck with the FBI idea. I don’t like seeing her exactly back where she was in high school, wasting her fancy degrees and being more dysfunctional and nasty than she was back when she had more of a reason for it. I would have liked to see her in a job that uses her degrees, like FBI or even criminal defense lawyer, naturally dealing with big cases. They went a little too far with some of the noir tropes maybe. 

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They did a nod to character development for Dick in season 3 when he realized what a jerk he was to Cassidy and how that contributed to his murderous behavior.

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4 hours ago, nara said:

They did a nod to character development for Dick in season 3 when he realized what a jerk he was to Cassidy and how that contributed to his murderous behavior.

I’ll have to rewatch that, it’s been awhile. But why have him in the revival and then not around when his dad is beheaded? 

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10 hours ago, LeGrandElephant said:

Also, if they wanted her involved in big serious cases, they should have suck with the FBI idea. I don’t like seeing her exactly back where she was in high school, wasting her fancy degrees and being more dysfunctional and nasty than she was back when she had more of a reason for it. I would have liked to see her in a job that uses her degrees, like FBI or even criminal defense lawyer, naturally dealing with big cases. They went a little too far with some of the noir tropes maybe. 

The PIs in noir fiction are all like Keith. Lost their job, became PIs to make ends meet, personal case draws them in. Veronica missed the on the job training and it shows. 

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I don’t like seeing her spend years getting a fancy education and then go back to using her high school skill set and not being able to pay the bills. I agreed with Weevil when he pointed out how she has options and she’s wasting them. When I saw her in high school I imagined a better future for her, and this future is just sad and depressing. 

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That’s what killed me the most. How high my expectations were for her after the movie, only to see her now bitter, lacking empathy and hating her job and then reduced to a travelling P.I.

What a waste.

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Hi everyone!

I'm new to the board.  I'm so glad that there's a place that people actually have "real" discussions about television shows like back in the day on IMDB.com forums....I still miss that forum.

Anyway...I'm late to the party but I've been a fan of Veronica Mars from way back.  I just finished watching season 4 last week and I'm still processing the ending. 

I'm totally disgusted with the season finale.  I realize that's it's just a TV show but the ending really upset me as in pissed me off royally.  I can't believe out of ALL the endings they decided to go with that one. 

Spoiler

Why was it necessary to kill off Logan who was the love of Veronica's life?!  Why let us get our hopes up and be happy for V&L when they were just going to blow things all to hell?!

I've seen the interviews of Rob Thomas saying that Veronica is at her best when she's miserable and that the twist was necessary to save the show.  WTF?! 

Quote

Thomas exact words were

"I think there’s a reason you don’t see many hard-boiled detective shows where the lead detective has a boyfriend or a girlfriend; it kind of limits your options".  "I feel as though we are going to have a better shot of doing more and more Veronica Mars if our heroine does not have a boyfriend or a husband back home.

That is such complete and utter bullshit! It seems he's saying that Veronica needs to be miserable as hell in order to be an effective PI.  Does that point of view apply just to Veronica Mars or to women in general?   That makes no sense whatsoever, or least it doesn't make sense to me.  Has he watched Madame Secretary???

So, if there is a season 5 does the continued storyline have Veronica being a traveling PI and being alone for the rest of her life?  Is she going to find love again maybe with the FBI guy Leo or some other guy only to have the relationship end in disaster as well???😠

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On 10/11/2019 at 4:06 AM, lapetite66 said:

Hi everyone!

I'm new to the board.  I'm so glad that there's a place that people actually have "real" discussions about television shows like back in the day on IMDB.com forums....I still miss that forum.

Anyway...I'm late to the party but I've been a fan of Veronica Mars from way back.  I just finished watching season 4 last week and I'm still processing the ending. 

I'm totally disgusted with the season finale.  I realize that's it's just a TV show but the ending really upset me as in pissed me off royally.  I can't believe out of ALL the endings they decided to go with that one. 

  Hide contents

Why was it necessary to kill off Logan who was the love of Veronica's life?!  Why let us get our hopes up and be happy for V&L when they were just going to blow things all to hell?!

I've seen the interviews of Rob Thomas saying that Veronica is at her best when she's miserable and that the twist was necessary to save the show.  WTF?! 

That is such complete and utter bullshit! It seems he's saying that Veronica needs to be miserable as hell in order to be an effective PI.  Does that point of view apply just to Veronica Mars or to women in general?   That makes no sense whatsoever, or least it doesn't make sense to me.  Has he watched Madame Secretary???

So, if there is a season 5 does the continued storyline have Veronica being a traveling PI and being alone for the rest of her life?  Is she going to find love again maybe with the FBI guy Leo or some other guy only to have the relationship end in disaster as well???😠

Welcome @lapetite66!

I agree, that ending disgusted me as well and was a real slap in the face to fans.  It does seem that RT wants Veronica to travel all over solving crimes.  I doubt he's going to give her a long-term love interest though.  I think he'll have her hooking up with randos. 

PS.- You don't need spoiler tags since you're in the season finale episode thread.  So, we all know how it ends. 😉

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On 10/15/2019 at 7:54 AM, Whimsy said:

Welcome @lapetite66!

I agree, that ending disgusted me as well and was a real slap in the face to fans.  It does seem that RT wants Veronica to travel all over solving crimes.  I doubt he's going to give her a long-term love interest though.  I think he'll have her hooking up with randos. 

PS.- You don't need spoiler tags since you're in the season finale episode thread.  So, we all know how it ends. 😉

Hi Whimsy:

Thanks for the welcome.

So, lets see instead of Veronica being a monogamous loving wife who can't wait to get home to her husband after a long days work she's going to be an angry chick who sleeps around solves crimes.  Yeah...that makes so much sense, why didn't I think of that storyline??😏 

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Binge watched the whole season today. I was spoiled going into it, but just ignored what I knew while I watched.  Now I just want to say fuck you to RT who  couldn’t leave it at an ambiguous ending with the explosion, but had to go and show us a year later to remove all hope. Well, I’m ignoring it and pretending Veronica and Logan are still together in dysfunction. 

I think I read there won’t be a season 5, but even if there is, I’m out. 

Edited by DanaMB

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Just finished binge watching S4, and, man, it was not good.  I struggled to stay engaged in the bomb story which became increasing convoluted as it wore on.  There were two separate bombers?  Big Dick/Perry Walsh and the pizza delivery dude?  Who is some kind of evil mastermind?  Whaaat?

I tried to drum up some interest in Matty, but, aside from feeling some initial sympathy b/c she lost her father, I really didn't care that much about her story.

I'm assuming RT wants the viewers to be more engaged in the mystery than anything else, but the last one I was truly into was Lily's death in S1.  The bus crash of S2 didn't really pop for me until the very end, and, although the rape story of S3 had its moments, I couldn't have cared less about the dean's murder and the TA stuff.

I watched this show for its relationships.  Veronica/Keith, Veronica/Logan, Veronica/Duncan, Veronica/Wallace, Weevil/Logan, Weevil/Veronica, Logan & the Echolls, and so on.  Those various relationships were the ones that kept me tuning in.  No offense to RT, but if he wants the audience to be ALL about the mystery/crime-solving aspects of VM, he's got to write mysteries that are as compelling as the one in S1.  Otherwise, folks are going to be more about the relationships they like most on the show (in this case, Logan/Veronica & Veronica/Keith).  And they'll be disappointed when their characterizations and deaths are written as an afterthought.

It's clear that RT had no idea what to do with Logan.  He'd skipped past his actual evolution as a character in the movie - suddenly he went from a vibrant, charismatic fuck up with anger issues to a new calmer, more subdued version of himself.  Because he'd already given him all of this off-screen growth! there was nothing left to write for him as a character in S4, especially since all of his family is dead or off-screen.  So, it's either break up he & Veronica, revert Logan back to his old ways, or kill him off.

JD was even playing him differently imo.  There was less spark, vibrancy, & energy in his performances.  It's so freaking obvious when you watch S1-3 and then movie/S4Logan.  Yeah, there were some quips here and there, and a glimpse of who he used to be when he punched the cabinet and had rough sex with V.  But he'd become so neutered as a character that they had Veronica even SPEAK to the change in him. 

I HATE that Logan was killed off.  I loved him.  But they'd written him into a corner that they couldn't really get out of w/o reverting him back to his bad boy ways, which I'm assuming viewers would have had an issue with as well.  I think RT actually thought he was throwing a bone to the audience by shuffling past their very real relationship issues and giving them a happy wedding before blowing him up.  The bottom line is, I think they were done with the Logan character after the movie.  S4 was a slow death for him.

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