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S04.E08: Years, Continents, Bloodshed

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13 minutes ago, redpencil said:

They were definitely a little too jokey and jolly about it for me, though obviously it's a lot fresher for us than it is for them. I do feel like KB and RT didn't give it as much deserved weight as the other cast members did. Francis and Jason are apparently really close, so that didn't surprise me.

The sudden flood of interviews smacks a lot of damage control (I think that while they expected push back, probably not at this level), and I feel like the tone missed the mark on that front, but in all fairness to RT he is sort of in a no-win situation.  He is trying to defend a decision that he clearly thinks was the right one but some fans disagree with (and some fans, of course, like).  There is nothing he can say that will really mitigate the decision - either people like it or they don't, no explanation for it will really "lessen the blow", so to speak.  So, he would have been better off just staying off media and not trying to defend the ending, and let the creative work speak for itself (or not). 

The more I think of it, from a business standpoint this doesn't seem like the greatest decision - 4 or 5 seasons in a show seems unlikely to generate a huge number of new viewers, so why do something that will likely alienate a meaningful chunk of current fans?  There would have been ways to lessen the focus on relationships (which seems a weird goal, but ok if that is their creative direction) that would be less drastic.  The decision, the way it was executed, the early release of the season, and now all the PR just all feel very strange. 

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Why didnt RT and KB just make a new whole show. If they didn't want to use what people loved about it in the first place. Neptune and the other characters. 

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3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Even if he didn't die. I didn't see their marriage lasting. Veronica refuses to deal with her issues and from that she would never be fully committed to their relationship. The only difference in their relationship would be they have rings on their fingers. 

I agree with that. Veronica got a big scare with her and Keith almost dying and she was already so worried over him already. I see how that made her want to marry the person that she does love now, but I do think she would have soon reverted back to the person that doesn't want to deal with her issues. Meanwhile Logan clearly was taking steps to get better, so yeah I can't see that it would have lasted. It took something that drastic to get Veronica to talk to the therapist and she still seems like she's running to me.

I actually hope this show gets another season. I never watched it for Veronica's love life so I want to see where they take it without that being a focus. What I'm not sure of is what they can do without Neptune and Veronica's ties to so much there and whether that can be interesting.

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I watched this episode last night, and I just felt... deflated at the end. Assuming Logan is really dead and not just in a coma or something, I am disappointed. I like the character of Logan; I find him interesting to watch and root for, so it sucks that that's over. I liked that they gave him a lot of narrative attention since I enjoy him, but as noted upthread it was kind of a send off. And honestly, I would have been fine if he had had a much less prominent role throughout this series (even only around via skype or whatever) and were still in the picture. I felt like he was kind of toned down and less fun sometimes, but that was obviously deliberate since that was part of Veronica's complaint about him. But kind of a bummer since that's the last we'll see of him.

I was kind of spoiled because apparently we cannot go two days without suggestive headlines about the finale of an 8 episode season with an even more revelatory episode title. I knew it wasn't going to end with a happy perfect wedding leading to perfect happy marriage, etc. But I feel like two damaged people struggling to get through dangerous lives more or less together without damaging each other more could also be noir. Blowing Logan to bits practically minutes after the wedding seems like overkill. And also like the answer to the question, "How can we get fans to like this show LESS?" (Not all fans of course! But a significant number.)

And doubly so if they are going to go to the format of her solving crimes on the road. I think Veronica *sparks* when she's in these scenes with people we know and care about. Keith, Logan, Wallace, Weevil. If it's just all strangers? That she will never see again? And I guess they just killed Neptune as it was? It seems like it's just the haves now. Although they could always walk that back a bit and have Veronica return to fight for the even MORE downtrodden. 

I will probably check out whatever VM they do in the future, but when this dropped a week early, I subscribed to hulu that day and was excited to watch it all over the weekend. I'm sure I won't have that same urgency next time around. 

I didn't like the skip ahead a year, but if the last shot had been of the seconds after the blast, and I spent a year or so hoping it was a misdirect, and then they did another season and it turned out Logan was in fact dead, I might have felt even more frustrated. 

Totally unrelated to the end, what are we supposed to think about Penn? He obviously hated the spring breakers, and I guess he was responsible for some of the "accidents" that had taken place previously? Even so, it seems like quite a leap to very quickly decide to capitalize on the two Big Dick bombings with a series of escalating bombings of his own, elaborately framing his frenemy, and culminating with a plan for notoriety, prison, and a final eff you to Veronica for being a known-it-all. I guess? 

So was it the congressman's mother and staffer using the bombings to pressure him to stay in office? 

And not enough Dick in the end. His dad is murdered in gory fashion, maybe his only actual friend too? 

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Jason Dohring recorded this message to the fans. Damn, he seems upset.

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4 minutes ago, Myrrhine said:

But I feel like two damaged people struggling to get through dangerous lives more or less together without damaging each other more could also be noir

So much of the season was about Veronica and Logan healing together, moving past their previous traumas and learning how to be adults without falling back on the terrible things that happened to them as an excuse for destructive behaviour. At a time they were each other's worst enemies and the relationship was dysfunctional but they were managing to carve out something that was healing and supportive instead. And the show was clearly saying they had a long way to go but they were on the right path. And then it just threw it out the window for a cheap shock. I hated everything from when she agreed to marry him. Everything.

Because you're right, another season of them struggling to stay together while healing each other instead of damaging each other is more noir than a rootless Veronica in isolation from everything that kept her grounded. 

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35 minutes ago, festivus said:

I agree with that. Veronica got a big scare with her and Keith almost dying and she was already so worried over him already. I see how that made her want to marry the person that she does love now, but I do think she would have soon reverted back to the person that doesn't want to deal with her issues. Meanwhile Logan clearly was taking steps to get better, so yeah I can't see that it would have lasted. It took something that drastic to get Veronica to talk to the therapist and she still seems like she's running to me.

I actually hope this show gets another season. I never watched it for Veronica's love life so I want to see where they take it without that being a focus. What I'm not sure of is what they can do without Neptune and Veronica's ties to so much there and whether that can be interesting.

The thing that fristrates me is that this is likely true given this season but not for the veronica we met in the books and, i would argue, not necessarily for the Veronica you could project from her teen years. 

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On 7/21/2019 at 7:24 AM, General Days said:

VM will remain one of my favorite shows, but this changed something in me. It gave me the kind of closure I don't think either Rob Thomas or Kristen Bell wanted me to have.

This. I feel a sense of closure that I don't think is quite what they were aiming for. I don't feel invested in the future of the show anymore. I'll maybe watch another season, but I won't be anticipating it anxiously like I did the movie or this season. 

I wasn't exactly spoiled, but saw a couple of people post things like "OMG that last episode!" so I knew to expect something before I even had a chance to watch (I was out of town when Hulu decided to drop the show early). I saw the anvils of her losing either Keith or Logan to a sudden death and once I saw the title of the last episode, I knew Logan was gone. I don't feel mad, necessarily. I just feel disappointed and sad that this show has also fallen to the "I'll tell the story I want, not what the fans want!" syndrome that seems to be happening now. From a creative standpoint, I get it. But as a fan, it feels highly alienating. And I think creators need to realize that they don't get to continue making content when the fans start turning away, so perhaps they need to find some middle ground. I'm not interested in Veronica without Neptune and the surrounding cast, and it doesn't sound like many here are either. 

I really feel very deflated. 

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3 minutes ago, Affogato said:

The thing that fristrates me is that this is likely true given this season but not for the veronica we met in the books and, i would argue, not necessarily for the Veronica you could project from her teen years. 

I read both of the books when they came out but I honestly don't remember much about them except that Veronica found out she had a brother. I guess a re-read is in order.

5 minutes ago, Jenniferbug said:

I really feel very deflated. 

Another show that I love killed one of the main characters in the season finale and I was devastated and there was another show who killed a character I absolutely adored and I refused to even watch the final episodes of it so I understand why everyone is feeling the way they are. I felt that way after Endgame too so I think now this stuff I love has lost its power over me and honestly it's kind of sad. It makes one not want to bother investing in these shows or movies you love anymore.

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Oh man. Poor Jason. He insists he understands and has made peace with it, but you know what, I don't think he does.

I know I don't. 

I'll be honest: I cried like a fucking idiot Friday nite. I mean, falling on the floor crying. It wasn't hyperbole when I say I felt gutted and devastated. I couldn't even talk to my guy when he came home a few minutes later; he legit thought someone we knew had died till I could stop crying enuf to explain (without spoilering, cuz he watches too). And it felt that way. I know it's stupid, but I know many of y'all get it. 

And seeing Jason's face in that video makes me want to cry all over again. Man, that's rough. 

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3 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

So Rob's interviews pretty much confirm that it was a plot move to set up a single, free-wheeling detective Veronica.

Seriously.  I've sat with it for longer and read a couple of interviews and I really think I'm done.  I have no interest in watching Veronica wander the country and solve crimes like The Littlest Hobo. I like KB a lot but the reason I like VM is because of Keith, Wallace, Weevil, the 009ers, the PCHHer the Fitpatricks, the Sheriffs department etc.  I love the world of Neptune. 

Also if they really were doing Noir they would have Veronica cheat with Leo.  They always use the noir as the excuse for the shitty things that happen but somewhere along the way the forgot the rules of what they were doing. 

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https://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/a-guide-to-film-noir-genre

2. A movie which at no time misleads you into thinking there is going to be a happy ending. 

———————-

i don’t think this season was noir. Logan’s death is tragic, but not tragedy, and noir is driven by human nature and not circumstance. 

I also think it was a cheap trick, the opposite of the above quote  

cuss you, RT  

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5 hours ago, luna1122 said:

That interview explains why the whole season just felt slightly off to me. This is the season he had to make to get to the show he wants to make. Intriguing concepts were brought up and then were ignored because they were just filler. The perfect example is Keith struggling with his health. Watching him go through that and coming to the conclusion that he needed to step aside was compelling but then it’s resolved in 5 minutes.

The sad thing is that they could have brought Veronica to a similar place in a way that developed naturally. 

46 minutes ago, Clare said:

They always use the noir as the excuse for the shitty things that happen but somewhere along the way the forgot the rules of what they were doing. 

Exactly. I’m so tired of show runners putting their own failures onto the fans. 

Edited by Dani
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4 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

Just googled them, and while they do look similar, Brad is a year older! lol

Brad was born in 75, Wallace Langham in 65. Brad is a decade younger.

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“I fear that leaning into the high school soap that the show started out as is a losing proposition, that it will start feeling nostalgic rather than vital. If Kristen [Bell] and I want to make more of these Veronica Mars mysteries, I think it’s going to survive best as a true mystery show with a badass PI at the center of it, and I think that works better if the PI doesn’t have a boyfriend.”

More here. It’s like Rob Thomas is trying to insult all the fans of the original show. Interviews today are indeed making it clear that it’s not just about moving on from Logan and their love story - he and Bell intend to leave the setting and the rest of the cast behind to do something new under the Veronica Mars moniker. 

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Ok, I’ve actually watched the whole season now. I wasn’t going to at first, because not a Logan fan, didn’t like the fan-service stuff in the movie, and the first episode thread was all about shirtless Logan, so I figured the revival was going to be more (extended) fan-service, and I don’t watch shows for that. But then I read the Logan Dies spoiler and decided to give it a shot. 

I mentioned in another post in this thread that another show did this to me very recently, so I can sympathize with you all. After my experience, I feel like niche and genre showrunners, the ones with intensely passionate fanbases, should knock off the edgy death stuff for a while. As has been said multiple times, things are shitty enough right now. Yeah, it’s an artistic choice, you’re a creator, etc., but maybe just give it a few years and see if the planet turns itself right-side up again? Instead of racking your brain for “what’s the most painful choice I can possibly make?!”

Setting this aside, I thought it was a strong season, but one episode too long, maybe two. The bomb plot got way too convoluted and went on too long. I sincerely didn’t care about any of the bomb players by the end, except maybe the Mexican hitmen. 

I did like the themes brought up and revisited (douchebags, corruption, sexual assault, more douchebags, etc), as well as the obvious ongoing homages to multiple true crime documentaries and the nation’s frenzy for true crime and injustice porn since Serial. (I think the statistic about less than half the country thinking Penn was guilty was commentary on stuff like Making a Murderer.) 

I liked their use of JK Simmons, who I was not expecting to see here.

I liked the writing, they were at the top of their dialogue game, and I have a feeling someone’s been taking notes from Stephen Falk (You’re the Worst), who in my opinion is the best rapid-fire dialogue artist since Amy Sherman-Palladino was at her peak with Gilmore Girls.

The pacing was very good until it kind of went splat when you realized a whole additional episode was still going to be about the bombs.

My biggest gripe with the shock ending was how tacked on it felt. And then the therapist (love Mary, but she pops up the fuck out of nowhere) happens to have this voicemail message for Veronica? What? 

It felt like they needed to take another swipe at the entire last episode. I think if nothing else, they might have been able to maneuver Logan’s death in a way that didn’t just piss everyone off. 

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8 hours ago, hiccup said:

Yes, she mentioned it one of the eps that she couldn't use Mac for hacking because Mac was in Istanbul. 

Not Constantinople.  A great line by Logan.

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4 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

After reading the postmortems, I am kind of surprised (IDK why, but I am) to see that Rob thinks the primary driver of fandom for this show is the mysteries, and not Veronica's relationships. How the mysteries involved/evolved her relationships were what made them interesting to me! I don't think Veronica Mars out solving mysteries in unfamiliar places with unfamiliar people is nearly as big of a draw as he seems to think it is. I'm not even really sure why he believes it would be. 

Aside from “Who killed Lilly Kane?” and “Who raped Veronica?” I don’t really remember any of the other mysteries, especially from Season 3 when so many new characters came in. Veronica’s relationships with Keith, Wallace, Logan, Weevil, Mac, the Kane’s, etc is what made the mysteries of Season 1 and to a lesser extent, Season 2 so exciting and special IMO. So no, I can’t imagine caring about Veronica solving mysteries in unfamiliar places with unfamiliar people. 

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49 minutes ago, kieyra said:

My biggest gripe with the shock ending was how tacked on it felt. And then the therapist (love Mary, but she pops up the fuck out of nowhere) happens to have this voicemail message for Veronica? What? 

Not taking away from how dumb this was, because what patient has their therapists personal phone number, but the message wasn't left FOR Veronica.  It was an expansion on the answer Logan gave his therapist. But, I still hated it and, honestly, got no emotional attachment to it.  I think it was because 1. I was already immensely pissed off and 2. Veronica only shed like one freaking tear during that message.  I think it was meant to convey how strong she was, but it was just adding insult to injury that she didn't seem to give a flying fuck her husband had died. 

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2 hours ago, Evie said:

Aside from “Who killed Lilly Kane?” and “Who raped Veronica?” I don’t really remember any of the other mysteries

And what made the S1 mysteries so compelling is how deeply personal they were to Veronica. Finding out who raped her and who killed Lilly were the driving force in Veronica’s life because those two things had affected every aspect of her life.

That’s one of the reasons why freewheeling single PI Veronica solving cases outside of Neptune doesn’t appeal to me - those will just be cases, not essential things that she needs to know or do. 

One of the other things I loved about the show was her relationships. Despite her belief that she was a tough loner, she grew to depend on Wallace, Weevil, Mac, and other people, not only for assistance with her cases but for emotional support. Sending Veronica on the road eliminates all of that. 

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo
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59 minutes ago, stagmania said:

“I fear that leaning into the high school soap that the show started out as is a losing proposition, that it will start feeling nostalgic rather than vital. If Kristen [Bell] and I want to make more of these Veronica Mars mysteries, I think it’s going to survive best as a true mystery show with a badass PI at the center of it, and I think that works better if the PI doesn’t have a boyfriend.”

This was what bothered me the most, I think, about that whole interview. I'm all for showing strong independent and single characters who are happy being single. But reducing Logan to Veronica's inconvenient husband and then killing him off after having them get married was awful.

You could have got to the same place by, instead of having him propose, spend the season showing them disagreeing, relationship unravelling over their obviously different life views/philosophies. Have them break up at the end - which I didn't want but would have been better than what we got.

And if you WERE going to kill him off, I agree that it should have been the central mystery. Killing Logan as an afterthought was an insult to the character. I was initially deflated - I didn't even cry at his death because I was so numb and deflated, but now I am just angry. I had planned on re-watching this season to catch all the things I missed the first time, but now I can't even do it.

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10 hours ago, stagmania said:

On your first point, that move away from cases that are personally connected to Veronica seems quite intentional. They’re trying to leave Neptune behind. But I agree with you that the mystery is not very compelling without that connection. 

On Veronica/Logan, I think your characterization of their relationship is a little unfair. She laughed and had fun with Logan - we saw it in this very season. Their shared sense of humor and matching quick wits has always been a feature of their relationship. They’re both angsty, traumatized people but they’ve brought each other joy along with the sexual tension and drama over the years.

I just don’t at all agree with the idea that pursuing healing and healthier behaviors makes you boring, and I don’t think that’s really what the show was trying to say, either - they were making the point that Veronica is kind of toxic and a bad partner because she refuses to deal with her shit. Of course, they stepped all over their own thesis with the ending, so I’m not surprised the message is muddled. 

Right, but this was the transition to leaving Neptune. She hadn't left yet. So this one should have been personally connected and been such a personal, gutting, gamechanger (not Logan dying, the mystery itself) that it forced her right out of Neptune. That would've made more sense and more impact.

We saw a couple jokes between them, sure, but by and large this season was them arguing and being frustrated a lot. The one scene that clearly said to me these two weren't going to last unless Veronica changed was her very blank stare/uncomfortable look when they settled down on the couch to watch that historical movie. That just wasn't her jam and it had become Logan's apparently. 

I fully agree the point they were originally trying to make was that Veronica didn't want to deal with her shit. Hell, they had her flat out say she was the destructive element in her relationship. It wasn't unclear at all. But the fact remains, she was how she was and she wasn't changing...and she found Logan to be a "pod-person" and didn't like it. So how would those two even have lasted? They'd grown apart. Should've just written a breakup and let him go his merry way. The mistake was thinking they had to marry them off to give more "fan service" when they were gonna kill him anyway.

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I'm quickly going from hating the twist to kind of hating Rob Thomas. I honestly don't think he has any idea what made the show work. Without Neptune and its people, Veronica Mars doesn't work. And not just because I wouldn't like it, I don't think anyone outside of Neptune would put up with this Veronica's endless supply of bitchy shit. 

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What a sad end for such a dynamic character. Like, I'm legit upset. I know he started out as the obligatory psychotic jackass, but looking back on the trajectory of Logan's character, it's amazing all the development he's been through.

And he's such a tragic character, too, so to have him finally get to a happy and healthy place in his life, ready to start actually LIVING (you know, after having being beaten his entire childhood; his girlfriend being murdered by his child-abusing, statutory rapist of a father; his mother committing suicide; his new girlfriend accusing him of raping her the year before; being accused of murder and having the whole town turn on him; his dad getting off for the murder of his dead girlfriend; his dad being murdered; probably more stuff that I'm missing and probably to do with more murder and/or death and/or rape), BAM! They kill him. What a joke. 

7 hours ago, luna1122 said:

According to RT,  Logan is really truly dead. Of course, he could be a big fat liar. He's also okay with fans being upset, as long as they stick around. "But I will have made a really bad bet if, en masse, the fans turn on the show. That would certainly be a tough lesson to learn.”

I don't know, but he might learn that lesson.

I literally almost just turned off the episode as soon as the car exploded. And the only reason I didn't, was because I was holding out some sort of delusional hope that the show wasn't actually going to go through with it. I definitely have no interest in what they're doing next. 

Honestly, it took a lot for me to come back after the third season, which I thought was a fairly big disappointment. (Actually, having Beaver suddenly be a gun-wielding-bomber-rapist, was what initially kicked off my disappointment, but I digress.) And I wasn't a big fan of the movie either. I think I've only watched it once.

What got me intrigued in this new season was the books. Good mystery and intrigue. Snappy dialogue. I felt like the books were a grown up season 1. 

But after all that? Yeah, I'd say that killing off Logan puts the nail in the coffin (no pun intended) for me ever returning to anything Veronica Mars. 

7 hours ago, Hoi Polloi said:

It would not have been horrible if Logan and Veronica broke up. But killing Logan? Just no. Logan season 2 when he was desperately working to clear himself of Hector's murder all the while antagonizing Veronica and seeking her help is one of my favorite Logans. The character is just too interesting to kill off.

Yeah, I definitely didn't need Logan and Veronica to be together. I enjoy the history of the characters and the chemistry of the actors, but I also know that relationship is toxic and unhealthy, so breaking them up wouldn't have angered me.

(I actually remember texting my friend after watching the VM movie and being all, "Nooooo. Does it mean that I'm an actual adult now that I'm rooting for Veronica and Logan not to be together because they're so bad for each other?")

So, definitely more upset about the loss of an incredibly interesting and well-acted character than I am about the loss of a ship I adored in my teens. 

5 hours ago, kieyra said:

What I really like is watching Veronica talking back to, and taking down douchebags. And being investigatey. And snarky. She does need a few characters to ground her, though, so they'll either have to include Keith/Wallace/Weevil somehow, or spin up some really solid new characters. I suppose seeing her have a functional relationship with a female friend would be cool as well.

PS, I'm fine if I never, ever have to see Dick Casablancas again.

Speaking of functional female relationships, I REALLY missed Mac this go around. Was there any buzz on why Tina Majorino declined? I had kind of just assumed that she'd be in this new season and was pretty bummed when I found out last week that she hadn't signed on. (Clearly I don't follow any of the behind the scenes making of or actor drama.)

Also, SO MUCH to your bolded point. Not that I plan on going any further with the Veronica Mars franchise, but Dick overstayed his welcome back in season 2. I don't care how funny Ryan Hansen is. 

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I am not sure how I feel about killing Logan but I am glad they did the one year jump after it. Showing Veronica's trauma and grief is not someting you can tack on to the last 10, or even  30 minutes of an episode. And it is not something I really wanted to see a whole episode of at this point in the season, so they might as well skip it.

I am intrigued by the possibility of Veronica being the Have Camera Will Travel detective (or Murder She didn't Write). Half of Veronica's detective moves seemed to be based on no one suspecting the little blonde girl of being the detective who knows all of your shit. But that should have stopped working in Neptune after season 1. After her solving the spring break bomber she should be pretty recognizable in most of southern California so pretending to be Amber the temp to sneak into an office shouldn't work anymore.

Cool that they got Kyle Secor to come back, surprised he didn't name the school after his daughter though.

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5 hours ago, redpencil said:

And while he doesn't owe me personally anything and he can do what he wants, I do feel a bit stepped on, like he doesn't care if I continue to watch or not, as long as enough other people do.

Exactly! It's like when cable/internet companies sweeten the deal for new customers, but shit on the existing ones. It pisses me off! 

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10 minutes ago, Brinny said:

Also, SO MUCH to your bolded point. Not that I plan on going any further with the Veronica Mars franchise, but Dick overstayed his welcome back in season 2. I don't care how funny Ryan Hansen is. 

RT is really good at writing douchebags. Sometimes I think he enjoys it a little too much.

(I’d probably watch whatever VM product came out next, as I like the more mature, polished tone and I’ve always been here for Veronica primarily. But I cut loose another show that recently made me feel the way a lot of posters are feeling here (meaning a knife to the heart of a beloved pairing that hadn’t even gotten started, and killing off a lead as well, in a completely unnecessary death), so I completely understand the feelings of betrayal and refusing to watch further. And I hate that I can’t rewatch that other show now, as it was very complicated and had a lot to unpack. Meaning great rewatch material. So I understand there’s the double-whammy for a lot of people—past seasons are now kind of ruined too.)

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26 minutes ago, Brinny said:

Speaking of functional female relationships, I REALLY missed Mac this go around. Was there any buzz on why Tina Majorino declined? I had kind of just assumed that she'd be in this new season and was pretty bummed when I found out last week that she hadn't signed on. (Clearly I don't follow any of the behind the scenes making of or actor drama.)

She just gave an interview. 

Veronica Mars: Tina Majorino Breaks Silence on Season 4 Absence — Plus, Why Exactly Was Mac in 

Edited by Dani
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2 hours ago, stagmania said:

“I fear that leaning into the high school soap that the show started out as is a losing proposition, that it will start feeling nostalgic rather than vital. If Kristen [Bell] and I want to make more of these Veronica Mars mysteries, I think it’s going to survive best as a true mystery show with a badass PI at the center of it, and I think that works better if the PI doesn’t have a boyfriend.”

If they wanted a single Veronica, there is such a thing as a break up. If they were set on killing Logan, there were ways to go about it that might not have pissed fans off quite as much. Here's a question: If Duncan, Leo or Piz had been the boyfriend do you think RT would have killed them so the badass P.I. could go on the road? 

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7 minutes ago, Dani said:

Good for her. 

Spoiler

TBH. I get it.

And maybe because I'm all bitter and angry right now, but I would have much rather seen more of Mac and Weevil being integral to the central plot and having their own B stories (and Wallace, too, but possibly a lesser extent, because as pretty as Percy Daggs III is, Wallace as an adult doesn't seem to fit in as much with the whole crime-solving-noir aspect of the show, especially now that they've given him a baby) than mini!Veronica running her sociopathic butt all over town doing absolutely nothing other than getting in the way.

Just now, Evie said:

If they wanted a single Veronica, there is such a thing as a break up. If they were set on killing Logan, there were ways to go about it that might not have pissed fans off quite as much. Here's a question: If Duncan, Leo or Piz had been the boyfriend do you think RT would have killed them so the badass P.I. could go on the road? 

Ugh. Now I'm even more upset. How is it possible in the world where Veronica Mars exists, Duncan Kane is still alive and Logan Echolls is dead?

Edited by Brinny · Reason: ETA quote
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Not to rub salt into the wound, but it sounds like we could have  gotten Mac if they cut, for example, all of Dick’s scenes. 

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14 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Not to rub salt into the wound, but it sounds like we could have  gotten Mac if they cut, for example, all of Dick’s scenes. 

It sounded  more to me like she was expecting Mac to get her own storyline. Which is fine although it was an 8 episode season that required introducing a bunch of new characters (including one played by an Oscar winner). Not sure how they would fit another characters story into the mix.

Edited by Kel Varnsen
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I can understand why she chose not to come back and I'm fine with it. It sounds like even if she had agreed to return for S4, her appearance would have been as brief as the other old characters. Hell, Wallace was Veronica's BFF for all three seasons and we barely saw him in S4. If Mac had come back, she probably would have been relegated to a 1-2 scenes where she's hacking to get info for Veronica and giving a brief technobabble explanation.

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I don't blame her for not coming back. It's pretty clear at the end of the season that anyone who is not Kristen Bell or maybe Enrico Colantoni is disposable to the plot and likely to be relegated to cameo status in any future seasons. I know they only had 8 episodes, but did we need so much of the cartel goons on their own or the Maloofs? I would have traded scenes of them for more Wallace or Mac. I think the only reason Dick was not a brief one scene cameo is because Ryan Hansen is Kristen's BFF. 

At least Mac is a character who could more easily pop up in the future. She's less settled than Wallace or Weevil so could encounter Veronica on these travel mysteries or be the catalyst for Veronica to travel somewhere for a case. Even so, I don't have a lot of faith that they'd do her justice given how this season ended, so I'm content to believe she's living her best life offscreen. 

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49 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It sounded  more to me like she was expecting Mac to get her own storyline. Which is fine although it was an 8 episode season that required introducing a bunch of new characters (including one played by an Oscar winner). Not sure how they would fit another characters story into the mix.

It wasn’t required, it was a choice. The mystery was overcomplicated and largely boring and they easily could have cut some of those new characters to give old favorites a real story. But they’re not interested in them anymore. 

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What I really don't understand is why Rob Thomas doesn't just create a new character/new show for Kristen Bell if that's what he wants to do, and it sounds like he does.

Why ruin all the stuff people love about the old show? To complain that they don't want it stay "half teenage soap," well- you know what? That's what the show WAS. It was part mystery, part teen drama and that's what the fans were fans OF.

If you want to do something completely new, then do that instead! 

Edited by ruby24
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8 minutes ago, stagmania said:

It wasn’t required, it was a choice. The mystery was overcomplicated and largely boring and they easily could have cut some of those new characters to give old favorites a real story. But they’re not interested in them anymore. 

YUP.

Rob Thomas, ladies and gentlemen: "I want to strip the show of nostalgia. I want it to be about a kick-ass detective solving interesting cases. I don't think we're going to be ever as pure detective as something like Sherlock, but somewhere between Sherlock and Fargo, I think we could exist. Moving forward, we're going to really build around [the idea that] the case is the thing and less of the soap opera of Veronica's life."

Rob, sir, what you want is a kick-ass detective solving show staring Kristen Bell. Not Veronica Mars. 

ETA: Also, if this was your test run for that? No thanks. Fargo is an amazing show with complex and intriguing mystery in both the plot and the characters. The mystery for VM season 4 was a muddled mess and, as @stagmania so aptly put "overcomplicated and largely boring". Which is to say, it was no Fargo. 

Edited by Brinny
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I mean, I could get behind Veronica Mars meets Sherlock x Fargo. They couldn’t really make it a new project because KB + RT + detective = it would be impossible not to think of her as Veronica Mars anyway. 

I don’t think this kind of transformation has been attempted before. (Teen CW Scooby-gang show grows up, shakes off all high-school trappings including love triangles, and becomes gritty drama.) I don’t think it’d ever be Fargo, but it could be interesting. And it couldn’t happen if we weren’t in this strange new world of “more tv than you could ever possibly watch”. 

They’d absolutely have to stop doing the corny names for people and businesses, though, and I’m not sure RT can give those up.

Edited by kieyra
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29 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

What I really don't understand is why Rob Thomas doesn't just create a new character/new show for Kristen Bell if that's what he wants to do, and it sounds like he does.

Why ruin all the stuff people love about the old show? To complain that they don't want it stay "half teenage soap," well- you know what? That's what the show WAS. It was part mystery, part teen drama and that's what the fans were fans OF.

If you want to do something completely new, then do that instead! 

Probably because no one would let him make it. They traded on the fan base to get this made hoping that the fans would stick with it after the transition. Unfortunately they exposed that they’re not all that good at writing mystery and that Veronica’s not all that likeable when you remove her from her support system. 

28 minutes ago, Brinny said:

The thing that baffles me about all of this is that he is being so transparent about his real agenda. He’s out shooting himself in the foot before many people have even had a chance to watch all the new episodes.  

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Well, this RT interview has solidified the fact that I will not watch a season 5. He made a bet, and I think it's a losing bet. And I agree w/everyone else who said if he wanted to make a different mystery series, he should have just done that. Don't mess w/what made Veronica Mars successful, which was in part, Neptune & the surrounding characters.

Also, considering that RT read TWoP a lot, he will probably read this forum as well, eventually, so....  Rob, you messed up.  😞

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On 7/21/2019 at 9:35 AM, stagmania said:

This seems like a classic case of the creator not understanding the strengths of his own creation. It’s so bizarre to me - he created this world and these characters that people love so much! Why bother bringing it back if he’s not interested in it anymore? 

Yes! I loved the dysfunctional world of Neptune. It was a great metaphor for current times. I loved the Veronica and Wallace friendship that never got weird with potential romance like every other friendship between a hetero man and woman on TV. I even loved Dick and Vinny because in small doses they’re funny. Mystery shows with no lead character development are all over TV and most of the have titles with acronyms. I don’t want any of them in my TV viewing schedule. What I do want is a show full of flawed, interesting characters like the inhabitants of Neptune. I don’t want to live there, but I like to visit.

Edited to add: I just realized Rob Thomas stole the ending of the James Bond movie On Her Majesty’s Secret Service.  James Bond gets married but he can’t be to continue the franchise so the bride gets killed on their wedding day by the villain who is trying to shoot James. This wasn’t even one of the good Bond movies, BTW. 

Edited by Athena5217 · Reason: Edited to add comment
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I'll be honest: I cried like a fucking idiot Friday nite. I mean, falling on the floor crying. It wasn't hyperbole when I say I felt gutted and devastated. I couldn't even talk to my guy when he came home a few minutes later; he legit thought someone we knew had died till I could stop crying enuf to explain (without spoilering, cuz he watches too). And it felt that way. I know it's stupid, but I know many of y'all get it. 

I cried in the car my whole drive home today, just thinking of everything. It's ridiculous, but that's how much this show (and the characters--not so much the mystery!) has affected people, especially when many of us have been invested in these characters and the relationships between them for 15 years.

I've had other shows where an episode or a season/series finale had me sobbing the whole way through, but I still genuinely loved the experience and the emotions it brought out in me. Not all crying over entertainment (for me) is bad. It can be cathartic and enjoyable. But I don't think that's what this reaction is for most people, judging from what I'm seeing out there (not just here). People are legitimately, genuinely distraught. And not in a "hurts so good, now give me more" kind of way. I don't think that's the reaction they were going for.

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I think it's weird that he didn't think the characters could grow up and just had to be jettisoned entirely. It doesn't have to stay a high school drama. I think it's actually a rare opportunity to actually have a show where enough time has passed that the characters CAN grow up. The rebooted nature of it gave them that, and he turned it down.

I actually prefer Veronica without Logan, though I strongly object to the way the show handled the transition out of it.

I was actually disappointed they didn't make more of the grocery store rat case. Why did they even have that storyline if they weren't going to do ore with it?

I wouldn't want the show to be stagnant. I guess I just don't understand what the appeal would be of having Veronica rambling from town to town solving mysteries alone for strangers. Maybe they can do something with that idea, but it seems like such a waste, and that it would strip it of all the emotional depth.

If they think of themselves as character writers more than mystery writers, why are they getting rid of all the characters to make it a show only about mystery plots?

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11 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I was actually disappointed they didn't make more of the grocery store rat case. Why did they even have that storyline if they weren't going to do ore with it?

It was just there to be the first dot in connecting Big Dick to it all, and him buying up all the property.

I liked that Clyde was on the level.  He didn't want anybody to die, well, outside of Big Dick, after Big Dick revealed he didn't give a shit that multiple people had died, and showed no remorse for all the damage he had caused.  He really did just want those people who owned the property to get paid for it, and to start his classic car shop.  He also did like Keith.  There was no vowing revenge on Keith, he understood where Keith was coming from.  JK Simmons did a great job humanizing Clyde.

It took me forever to realize where I recognized Matty from, and then it hit me, she's Young Kara in Supergirl.  From being the younger version of one ass kicking blonde, to being the protege of another.

And you can't have a Neptune High without Mr C.

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Okay, so there are some fans that liked the ending, or even if they didn't like what happened, will unambiguously continue to watch the show. That's great for them and they're 100% completely entitled to feel that way.  There are still people on board with VM s4 and future VM on her own.

But while that's true, Rob has lost a lot of viewers' trust.  And I say that very specifically bc it's more than "that villain sucked," "I'm seeing lots of loopholes," or "the only reason the conflict lasted as long as they needed it to is because they made up all kinds of dumb reasons for these two characters to just not talk to each other like human beings."  Those are execution errors that fans can get past and move forward.  But when a showrunner makes huge decisions like this that really make people question his judgment, and then shows what viewers feel is a complete lack of understanding after-the-fact, they don't get over egregious judgment issues the way they do an execution error.  Trust is a very hard thing to earn back.  Some people don't even give another chance.  Others will dip their toes in, but they maintain reservations about how invested they will allow themselves to get.  There are so many alienated fans that won't give him another chance, not bc they're taking their ball and going home, but bc he's burned them and there are consequences for that.  He talks about it like he fully understood that possibility, but I don't know if he really understood what it meant as a reality.

Like others, I don't really understand why he thinks reinvention as a lone wolf detective show is the only way for the show to have a future.  I get that's what he wants, but I think he's grossly miscalculating what the heart of the show is for fans.  And it's hubris for him to think that bc he has a different platform now in hulu, it's no problem to lose a bunch of dedicated followers and offset them with brand new viewers.  Veronica is in some ways a lone wolf at heart and she is a detective, but her as a lone wolf isn't what a lot of people love and they have never written the mystery stuff particularly well.  S1 mysteries were great bc they were so personal and built out this backdrop of town and characters we embraced.  Otherwise, their mysteries have been somewhat above average while being propped up by the excellent setting and main and recurring characters.  So the natural next step is to take away what's been propping up the less excellent parts of the show?  OK.  Unless the writing team is suddenly going to get much better at writing mysteries, or they hire new writers?  In that regard, I find it almost laughable that he compares the future vision to Sherlock or Luther.  Like, what would people have thought of s4 without that ending (yay) and any Neptune characters (meh)?  Veronica traveling to some seaside town in Florida where bombs are being set off and we only see her interact with a bunch of new characters we just met and don't really care about?  Just Veronica and her new buddy Nicole, and oh here's this congressman getting a ton of screentime, and a club of true crime enthusiasts, etc. with all the convoluted details of who the bombers are.

Here's another thing that Rob has been quoted on that gives me pause.  From TVGuide - "Our bread and butter is being quick and funny, and I'm not sure it'd be to our benefit to live a year in Veronica's grief on our show."  So while I think shows can and often should be more than only one thing, I have a hard time with this approach of "well, it's intended to be noir, so shitty things happen and the main character doesn't get to be happy, that's the way it is" combined with "hey, our staple is quick and funny, so we don't want to deal with the unhappy, inconvenient consequences of our decisions on-screen."  Sure, no one wants to see a year of her grief, either, but it just highlights how much the show wants to inflict lazy outcomes while acknowledging out of one side of the mouth that they haven't set fan expectations for something like this.  And they say this is the story we needed???  OK.  Um, yeah.

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Yay! I never have to see Veronica play second fiddle in her own show to fucking Logan ever again!! 

I hated that she married him when she obviously had misgivings. I hate the Logan Echolls Show. I hate all of the bullshit shipper service this show devolved into after the first year or so. I hope there's another season and it's finally about Veronica again. 

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A long time ago, we used to be friends...but now I kinda hate this show lol. Veronica Mars is ruined for me because happy supposedly equals boring. A Veronica that is not rooted with her family and friends is awful. Won't watch, rewatch, or continue my hulu subscription. So disappointed. 

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