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Loandbehold

S05.E01: Run, Yala, Run

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Dutch realizes The Lady has put Westerley under a collective delusion and in a world without memory, nothing is what it seems.

Fifth season begins tonight. SyFy (in US) is currently running Season 4.

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Can't wait... Syfy killed Dark Matter.. They killed The expanse.... The showrunners bungled wynonna earp... But I still got one more wild ride with Dutch and the Jaquobis (sp?).... Looking fwd to a enjoyable final season.. And hopefully more Dells Sayeh as I am an unabashed mayko nguyen stan

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This requires a rewatch.  I read that they said it would be weird, but this was a lot weirder than I had in mind  --

Its seems obvious, but it appears that if you were either previously Hullenized [DSK], imagined-made from memories with Hullen [Dutch], or are the product of Hullen experimentation [Jaq];  then you either are, or become, immune to The Lady's brainwashing.

So when "Thinky", I mean Zeph, said that The Lady was terraforming Westerley for something, was that maybe something like plans for - whatever race of people/aliens The Lady is from - to terraform the 'J' for them to take over?

Seeing the young girl as the 'big bad' sure brings back some S3 Supernatural memories.....

And I'm guessing Khlyen is real/alive again?

DSK will never be forgiven for killing Pawter, but damn did she look sexy AF being a killing machine and the slow-mo spinning knife-throwing brain-shot action.

Pree is the best, but that hair & beard?  No, no, no.


I'll save my 'shipping' thoughts for the Relationships thread, but *spoiler alert*, they're not happy thoughts.  They're not pleased ones at all.

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The beginning of the end, folks!

As usual, one problem with there being long waits between the seasons is that I have to remember everything that happened, but I think I got the gist of it.  The Lady has basically taken over Westerly, made everyone different, and now is terraforming it for her own nefarious purposes.  But Dutch now remembers everything, but everyone else is still under the control thanks to the magical rain/showers, and is on the run.  But she does have an ally in Zeph, who doesn't exactly remember everything, but is aware enough to know that something is off.  And Lucy is still self-aware!  Yay, Lucy!

It took me a few good seconds to recognize Pree with his new get-up.  Weird seeing Thom Allison with a beard and hair.  I do like that even with The Lady's meddling, Pree and Gared still are in love.  They better get a happy ending, dammit!

Still want Delle Seyah Kendry to get some kind of comeuppance, but assuming the badass mom role is good for now.

Hee, Khylen's face and gloating over Dutch outsmarting The Lady was great.  Hey, he might be a psychotic, stone-cold killer, but he's proud of his daughter.  Aww!

Not wild about all of the love triangle stuff, but the actors sold it.

Can't wait to see where this all goes, and looking forward to the last chances to see Hannah John-Kamen, Aaron Ashmore, and Luck Macfarlane together playing the best, snarkiest, most badass bounty hunters in the galaxy!

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I did like this small bit between Dutch and Lucy...

Dutch:  [something about Lucy fighting to keep from being purged]  That's my girl.
Lucy:  How's our boy (Johnny) doing?

4 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

Why wouldn't the guard make the Smelly Woman come out of the restricted area even after she offered him sex?

He might have, if the disturbance hadn't caused him to take off.

Edited by iRarelyWatchTV36
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5 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Why wouldn't the guard make the Smelly Woman come out of the restricted area even after she offered him sex?

I guess the answer lies in the question - that's at least how I read the scene.

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I thought that Zeph was saying she was going in there to have some sex, not offering it, but I was struggling with the dialogue all episode so I may be wrong.

Took me a long time to remember the previous season and the story etc.

I did like that Dutch was instinctively squicked out about being kissy kissy with Johnny, they are so much closer to brother/sister.

Glad it's back, wish there was more.

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Phew, had to rewatch and there are still some confusing parts. I'm glad I'm not the only one struggling to keep up. That was a lot but an entertaining lot. So, welcome back show - you've been missed.

Zeph was great though I don't remember her being so up for playing both teams. The hallucinogenic rain was a clever twist. And a massive clue (that I missed) since rain is never good in Westerley. I loved that even in this reality Dutch sucks at pottery, he! I did not mind the love triangle shenanigans since they were played for laughs.

Since Zeph had no idea what Dutch was talking about: who locked Dutch in and placed the red box on her bed?

Edited by MissLucas
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I barely remember the whole deal with The Lady, Dutch's mom, Dutch, what happen in the Green, etc...

Just going along for the ride at this point.

Guess I might need to read an online synopsis.

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7 hours ago, Kelda Feegle said:

I thought that Zeph was saying she was going in there to have some sex, not offering it, but I was struggling with the dialogue all episode so I may be wrong.

So it wasn't just me. 

I had to mentally transpose words that made sense for a much larger majority of the dialogue than I wanted to have to do such.

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7 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Since Zeph had no idea what Dutch was talking about: who locked Dutch in and placed the red box on her bed?

I was assuming it was DSK. She must have been behind the warrant D'av was working on as well, all to get the gang to Arkyn given she was prepared to get Dutch's DNA.

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2 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:
10 hours ago, Kelda Feegle said:

I thought that Zeph was saying she was going in there to have some sex, not offering it, but I was struggling with the dialogue all episode so I may be wrong.

So it wasn't just me. 

I had to mentally transpose words that made sense for a much larger majority of the dialogue than I wanted to have to do such.

Here is the actual dialogue which should make it obvious:

Guard: Hey!

Stinky Woman: What are you doing back there?

Stinky Woman: Mm, want to buy some...

Stinky Woman: sex?

Guard: Ew.

Guard: Just keep it to the Royale, it's off-limits back there.
Stinky Woman: Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool, cool, cool.

Stinky Woman: Yeah, I'll do that, sir.

Stinky Woman: I can do sex that would blow your tiny mind.

Stinky Woman: I would sex-destroy you.
 

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13 hours ago, Kelda Feegle said:

I did like that Dutch was instinctively squicked out about being kissy kissy with Johnny, they are so much closer to brother/sister.

Yep. Once Dutch was awake, her real feelings resurfaced from the mass delusion. Then again, her true feelings were also resurfacing whenever she was around D'avin.

Also, the memories flooding back to her for each guy was telling & I liked Dutch turning to Lucy for help with secrets / mementos. 

I am glad Dutch in no longer being mentally & physically violated. Sucks she wasn't able to wake up most of her team. She will have to work harder next time to do it. 

Good premiere ep. I liked seeing DSK and Jaq working together. I don't care for DSK but she is an intriguing character. Pree and Gared are always lovely. 

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I missed this show so much, I cant believe how close we are to the end! But for now, we come not to mourn Killjoys, but to celebrate it.

I loved the first episode (although I always forget that I need to do some quick research before coming back to this Verse after a long time, a lot goes on!) and seeing everyone in different roles was fun, if sad, especially now that Dutch is the only one with her own memories. Maybe they can find a better way to wake people up than to remind them of their worst memories of their previous life?

Pree as a hardass Killjoy is pretty awesome, but he needs to go back to his normal Pree-ness as soon as possible. Its so sweet that he and Gared still have feelings for each other after having their memories screwed with, but its sad to see them able to be together fully like they really are.

The shippy stuff with Dutch/Johnny/Dav on the other hand...On the one hand, I got to see Johnny and Dutch being married (albeit going through a rough patch) but on the other, the show basically just told us that Dutch only has platonic feelings for Johnny, and she has the hots of Dav again. So as a Johnny/Dutch shipper, I basically know that I wont be totally happy with how this show ends, presumably with Dav and Johnny as a couple and Johnny as the third wheel. I dont know for sure I guess, and the shipping is certainly not the main reason I watched this show (I am sure I will be happy even if I dont get my ship wish) but its still kind of sad for me. I mean, they have so many shippy moments! And so much chemistry! Its all right there, but no!

I did love seeing Johnny temporarily reuniting with Lucy, who is still herself, but that she has Dutch's back. "Our boy" indeed. And that Dav and Johnny started bickering like sibling as soon as they got kind of on the same side, even without their memories. 

Poor Zeph, hopefully she gets back to herself soon and gets all healed up. Love that she was immediately shook but how hot Dutch is. People in this verse think your obsession with sexual labels are for losers!

Edited by tennisgurl
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The show and showrunner have both always stated the love Dutch feels for Johnny is platonic That has never deviated from what I have seen on the show, interviews, and social media. It is not less a love because it isn't romantic love, which IIRC Michelle Lovretta has stated several times (and she also wrote this ep). Dutch and D'av had the relationship talk at the end of 4x08 about not giving up on their love, so to me, the show has been explicit regarding Dutch's feelings about both brothers. I think it was deliberate that Lucy triggered Johnny and D'av triggered Dutch. Also, I am thinking that this fantasy is one The Lady picked up from Johnny on some level since we've been directly shown it isn't what Dutch wants. I wonder if any the delusion behavior will be addressed if/ when everyone wakes up.

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8 hours ago, Chick2Chic said:

The show and showrunner have both always stated the love Dutch feels for Johnny is platonic That has never deviated from what I have seen on the show, interviews, and social media. It is not less a love because it isn't romantic love, which IIRC Michelle Lovretta has stated several times (and she also wrote this ep). Dutch and D'av had the relationship talk at the end of 4x08 about not giving up on their love, so to me, the show has been explicit regarding Dutch's feelings about both brothers. I think it was deliberate that Lucy triggered Johnny and D'av triggered Dutch. Also, I am thinking that this fantasy is one The Lady picked up from Johnny on some level since we've been directly shown it isn't what Dutch wants. I wonder if any the delusion behavior will be addressed if/ when everyone wakes up.

And herein lies the issue - at least for me. While a show with a straight up platonic lifepartner love story is a welcome sight; this is not it, if even non-shippers are picking up on clues that Johnny might feel more for Dutch than she does for him - as you yourself points out by suggesting that The Lady is picking out this fantasy from Johnny's mind and by talking about "fallout". This then, feels more like an unrequited love story about a woman who'll use one man for all her emotional needs then turn around and screw the 'hot one'. Lovretta can talk as much as she wants about platonic love, but she's the author of this story - if she wanted to tell that story she shouldn't even tease the possibility of J/D by making it look like Johnny feels more. Unless of course she's straight up shipper-baiting for eyeballs, in which case I'll feel justified in thinking she's a bit of a well, cow. Sorry. I have very strong feelings on shipper-baiters - especially the ones who hide behind lofty interviews, but still use the old tricks.

I like D'av and Dutch a lot, but I'm a Johnny fan first and foremost (I loved Pawter). If he's happy, I'm happy*. But the thought of him forever playing third wheel to Dav/Dutch icks me the f out. The trajectory for that possibility is what made me quit Killjoys several times.

*unless the showrunners play "match-the-spares" and put him and Zeph together. That would feel like creative bankruptcy.  Bring back Clara (either face) or even better - bring Pawter back out of the green/clear. 

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8 hours ago, Chick2Chic said:

I am thinking that this fantasy is one The Lady picked up from Johnny on some level

Well, I don't like that idea. That implies unrequited love and if they are going to be platonic, they both have to be. There should be no lingering romantic love. That's just too sad.

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4 hours ago, feverfew said:

*unless the showrunners play "match-the-spares" and put him and Zeph together. That would feel like creative bankruptcy.  Bring back Clara (either face) or even better - bring Pawter back out of the green/clear. 

4 hours ago, AngelKitty said:

Well, I don't like that idea. That implies unrequited love and if they are going to be platonic, they both have to be. There should be no lingering romantic love. That's just too sad.

Johnny and Lucy OTP. 

Seriously, I have no clue if it's a unrequited love story. I was just throwing that out there that it could have been something in deep Johnny's mind. I don't think the show has shown it to be the case that it's unrequited love and I was trying to spitball why The Lady went that route especially as it's very obvious that being with Johnny romantically is something Dutch does not want. Guess we'll wait and see. I just know Lovretta didn't want to dangle that Dutch & Johnny as romantic partners is anything in the cards or to invest in and she cut that off real quick in this episode, which I appreciated cause I was wary how this mass hypnosis story would play out when S4 ended.

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13 minutes ago, Chick2Chic said:

Seriously, I have no clue if it's a unrequited love story. 

Heh, heh, I'm not blaming you (I looked for a sorry emoji face but couldn't find one). Thinking about it further, it does seem that The Lady would have had to come up with this scenario somehow, so if it came from Johnny, it could be just that he wants to be married with children, not that he wants to be with Dutch. I believe Johnny truly loved Pawter and probably wanted that with her.

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18 minutes ago, AngelKitty said:

The Lady would have had to come up with this scenario somehow, so if it came from Johnny, it could be just that he wants to be married with children, not that he wants to be with Dutch.

I can totally get behind this as I can see it being something Johnny wants, esp with his own upbringing. That could also be why The Lady *gave* Jaq to them as well. I look forward to seeing the explanation for some of the choices The Lady made play out but I do think it was intentional by Lovretta to have this hypnosis story happen but to also not feed into fanwank that detracts from actual show stories + arcs. I should check out her twitter to see if she's made comments about this ep.

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The worst thing of all - going by the 'hit over the head' hints thrown out in 5.1 - is that no matter what, Johnny is the big loser in the end.  At least in terms of personal happiness & contentment.

Since it seems that the obvious endgame trajectory is Dutch/D'avin, that leaves Johnny as the 3rd wheel.  Which makes that scene toward the end of last season, between he & Lucy, about not wanting to end up as said 3rd wheel to D/D even more poignant.

If Johnny & Zeph end up together, not only will it feel like it only happened because "everyone needs a happy ending", but also (only) because Pip died not long ago and Johnny's the replacement. 

If Pawter comes back - from the Green - she'll be only a memory of the real thing.  Are Green-created memories fully functional, biologically?  If not, Johnny can have the wife but not the kids (unless they adopt).

I don't want them together, but J/DSK would be unavailable because of her devotion & worship of Aneela.


Still waiting to see how "(Johnny Jaqobis) The Thief that will save us all." plays in to things.  As of right now - IMO - it's being hinted at that he'll sacrifice himself to beat The Lady/win the war.  Just my take with how the outline for things have begun to take shape.

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2 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Still waiting to see how "(Johnny Jaqobis) The Thief that will save us all." plays in to things.  As of right now - IMO - it's being hinted at that he'll sacrifice himself to beat The Lady/win the war.  Just my take with how the outline for things have begun to take shape.

Wasn't that dealt with last season? I dimly remember being slightly disappointed because the pay-off wasn't that impressive.'

One of the reasons I hated them killing off Pawter was that it destroyed all prospects for a happy future for Johnny (plus I really liked the character). I don't see a pairing with Zeph working out either. She's been more smitten with D'Av and she's definitely not Johnny's type.

I hate to agree but that a big hero self-sacrifice starts to sound more and more plausible. Bringing in a new love-interest last minute would be cheap. Pawter's dead for good and Dutch is out of reach. Meh.

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Ugh, now I can’t get the thought of Johnny sacrificing himself so that Dutch and D’av can live happily ever after out of my head. After so many shows have given me such bullshit endings to beloved characters, it seems like it could happen. I’d like to think this show is better than that, but now it’s in my head...

Edited by tennisgurl
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1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

Wasn't that dealt with last season? I dimly remember being slightly disappointed because the pay-off wasn't that impressive.

One of the reasons I hated them killing off Pawter was that it destroyed all prospects for a happy future for Johnny (plus I really liked the character). I don't see a pairing with Zeph working out either. She's been more smitten with D'Av and she's definitely not Johnny's type.

I hate to agree but that a big hero self-sacrifice starts to sound more and more plausible. Bringing in a new love-interest last minute would be cheap. Pawter's dead for good and Dutch is out of reach. Meh.

If it was handled last season, it was done extremely poorly.  Because I remember the big deal about it from the start of S4, but then wondering why there was never any pay off as S4 ended.

And yes, (after 5.1) I don't think Johnny will get a 'happy ending'.  I didn't mean its likely he'll sacrifice himself exclusively because of his lack of ideal romantic prospects, but also because that's the way his character has been fleshed out.  And also, while he loves his brother D'avin, its Dutch that is his whole 'world' - however it is he sees himself in his place in her life.  So yes, I absolutely do believe Johnny would willingly give his life to save Dutch  [but also D'avin and the rest of the Quad/'The J'].

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Ugh, now I can’t get the thought of Johnny sacrificing himself so that Dutch and D’av can live happily ever after out of my head. After so many shows have given me such bullshit endings to beloved characters, it seems like it could happen. I’d like to think this show is better than that, but now it’s in my head...

Sorry.  I hate that its a possibility as well, but the pessimistic side of me is heavily influencing this theory/prediction I've come to.

Edited by iRarelyWatchTV36
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On 7/22/2019 at 6:06 PM, MissLucas said:

Wasn't that dealt with last season? I dimly remember being slightly disappointed because the pay-off wasn't that impressive.'

One of the reasons I hated them killing off Pawter was that it destroyed all prospects for a happy future for Johnny (plus I really liked the character). I don't see a pairing with Zeph working out either. She's been more smitten with D'Av and she's definitely not Johnny's type.

I hate to agree but that a big hero self-sacrifice starts to sound more and more plausible. Bringing in a new love-interest last minute would be cheap. Pawter's dead for good and Dutch is out of reach. Meh.

I don't think Johnny has to be paired up at the end of this to have a "happy ending." If he is, we all know who his true love is: Lucy. Maybe she will get a corporeal form. 

I know there are a lot of Johnny-Dutch shippers on here, and I knew watching last night that y'all would be upset. I have said it before, but I LOVE the non-romantic close relationship Johnny and Dutch have, and I would be super disappointed if they got together. My best friend is a guy. He is basically my brother. It is frustrating to never see relationships like that portrayed. I love him deeply and we have been through hell together more than once, but romance would never be where we ended up. Dutch and Johnny have always reminded me of us. It would feel lazy to me to write them as friends for years only to have them become more than friends. 

I don't think the fact that they were together in the fake world means there is some sort of unrequited love. After all, Pree and Gared are the cutest, and we aren't ascribing any meaning to Gared's relationship. It makes sense that Johnny and Dutch would be paired because they have lived together side by side for years. 

Ok, beyond the ships. I continue to think Jaq is an incredible actor. As someone who usually hates the way kids are written in sci fi, I am surprised that I constantly want more of his story. He and DSK were fun to watch. 

I also have to commend this show again for writing characters complex enough that I can go from wanting nothing more than to see them destroyed to rooting for them. DSK and Khylen being prime examples. 

I figured the rain was a backup but thought Dutch would get caught in it. I am glad we don't have to start over on the "this isn't real" plot. 

I really enjoyed Zeph in this episode and I hate knowing that she has so much sadness waiting for her when her memories return. 

I also enjoyed Killjoy Pree. We know he has that underlying danger/edge, and it was fun to have that played up. I have face blindness and it is embarrassing how long it took me to figure out it was him. Lol. It wasn't until he talked for a bit and I heard his voice. 

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1 hour ago, The Companion said:

I don't think Johnny has to be paired up at the end of this to have a "happy ending." If he is, we all know who his true love is: Lucy. Maybe she will get a corporeal form. 

Or, given the way memories are downloaded and transferred, maybe he will join with Lucy and not the other way around.  The two of them operating the ship and ragging on Dutch / D'avin would be a hoot.

Edited by Loandbehold
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1 hour ago, Loandbehold said:

Or, given the way memories are downloaded and transferred, maybe he will join with Lucy and not the other way around.  The two of them operating the ship and ragging on Dutch / D'avin would be a hoot.

Okay, now this is what I want. A fake out death only to have him become a snarky companion with Lucy. 

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