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S04.E04: Heads You Lose

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Convinced the bomber is still at large, Veronica visits Chino to learn more about Clyde and Big Dick. Mayor Dobbins’ request for help from the FBI brings an old flame to Neptune. Veronica confronts her mugger.

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This is the stupidest take-away, but all I could think was 'awww, Logan watches Harlots'. I wonder if they waited til the last minute to see what Hulu show they wanted to pretend Logan and Veronica are *big* fans of. 

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I've been really impressed by the cameos.  I know Max Greenfield has always been happy to put in appearances, but Tim and Mercer were big surprises.

And Max was a REALLY deep pull.

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"I'm Leo, I'm a friend of Veronica's"

"Yeah, you arrested me for murder"

Logan has changed, he would have never have missed this chance at a quip(or completely forgotten Leo, he spent enough time at the sheriff's office), as he was clearly trying to make him uncomfortable.

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2 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

"I'm Leo, I'm a friend of Veronica's"

"Yeah, you arrested me for murder"

Logan has changed, he would have never have missed this chance at a quip(or completely forgotten Leo, he spent enough time at the sheriff's office), as he was clearly trying to make him uncomfortable.

More like "you arrested me for murder and I paid you to destroy the tapes of my dad having sex with my girlfriend. "

I really really hope that the bomber isn't connected to Big Dick, because if you change it from "developer is using a bomber to scare kids off the boardwalk to tank real estate prices" to "developer is using a ghost to scare kids off the boardwalk to tank real estate prices" then it easily becomes the plot to a Scooby Doo episode.

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1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

More like "you arrested me for murder and I paid you to destroy the tapes of my dad having sex with my girlfriend. "

I really really hope that the bomber isn't connected to Big Dick, because if you change it from "developer is using a bomber to scare kids off the boardwalk to tank real estate prices" to "developer is using a ghost to scare kids off the boardwalk to tank real estate prices" then it easily becomes the plot to a Scooby Doo episode.

Lol, I just did a rewatch and the tapes didn't even pop in my head! I can't recall if the exchange was in person or not, but yeah, Logan knows who Leo is.

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23 minutes ago, moonshine71 said:

Lol, I just did a rewatch and the tapes didn't even pop in my head! I can't recall if the exchange was in person or not, but yeah, Logan knows who Leo is.

The only reason I remember them is that I listened to all of the Go Pirates podcast earlier this year.

The other thing the podcast talked about was how sometimes Veronica is too brave for her own good and it gets her into real trouble. The scene in Weevil's chop shop was a great version of one of those scenes and Kristen does legitimately scared really well.

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After all the fuss made about not swearing, Keith goes and refers to 'batshit crazy conspiracy theorists' and nobody blinks an eye.

I too was wondering about why Logan appeared to not acknowledge that he knew Leo.

The pizza guy is getting on my last nerve.

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3 minutes ago, secnarf said:

After all the fuss made about not swearing, Keith goes and refers to 'batshit crazy conspiracy theorists' and nobody blinks an eye.

It was just the so-called “F bomb” that was off limits. “Shit” has been used before. 

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I just remembered my second favorite ship of this show: Logan/Random Uplifting Quotes. They're not just for voicemails anymore.

I really enjoyed seeing Weevil. And that Veronica assumed he misunderstood her Fagin reference, but no, he got it, he's just thrown off by her thinking he has anything to do with bombings. Francis Capra always does so well with the many facets of Weevil's morality. And I think he's looking more attractive than the last time I saw him on something. I don't know he just reminded me more of classic Weevil.

Mercer is disgusting as always. I almost didn't recognize him. He seemed so old. My first thought upon seeing Tim was "what? Lucky's dead" before I remembered Tim would've gotten a haircut since his Hearst days. Say what you will about season three, but it's had the most successful legal justice for the big bads.

Leo is still the guy from this show I would choose. I loved him bringing the pizza. It was his turn! It was fun to see him and Veronica on a stakeout together. 

"Is there anyone in this town that isn't in law enforcement?"  - Yeah, the criminals. one priest and a high school physics teacher.

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Did Logan not recognise Leo?

I was waiting for it but then wondered if he just didn't remember him. But then reading this forum made me realise just how many interactions they had during the original case. He should have remembered him, right?

For the record I like Leo but thought he was kind of skeevy lusting after Veronica the way he did when she was in high school 

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33 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

Leo is still the guy from this show I would choose. I loved him bringing the pizza. It was his turn! It was fun to see him and Veronica on a stakeout together. 

Leo was the best of Veronica's boyfriends. I stand by this.

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16 hours ago, starri said:

I've been really impressed by the cameos.  I know Max Greenfield has always been happy to put in appearances, but Tim and Mercer were big surprises.

And Max was a REALLY deep pull.

It's weird to see Max Greenfield back in the Leo role because I so thoroughly associate him with Schmidt from the New Girl. (Well, the roughly four seasons I watched of the show- I think I tuned out when they gave the girls baby rabies and they tried awkwardly fitting in Damian Wayans Junior back to the show after he left for greener pastures that got cancelled.)

He really is such a charming guy, and Leo is such a good guy. I feel like he's the guy that Veronica could have ended up with, in the alternative universe where Lily was never killed and Veronica got to live out high school happily before skipping off to San Diego State. You can see in that conversation with Leo just how good he could be for Veronica, but she's just too damaged.

Although damn, I hate the continuity issues this show has always had. Dude, it's not that hard- Logan and Veronica have been together for 3 years not 5 years, because they got together in 2016, which is when the movie takes place. Geez.

The Tim thing is funny, because I remember back on TWOP there were discussions by people who were convinced that Tim was being played by a woman in drag and it was going to be a big reveal. In reality, the awful wig and fake beard were just trying to make the actor look different from his role as Lucky. It just had the unfortunate effect of making him look like a drag king.

As for Mercer, I  LOVVVVEEEEEEDDDD seeing him again. Ryan Devlin was so awesome in that part, and he felt so "on" for the minute or two cameo we saw him in.  I loved how he wanted to keep talking to Veronica because he misses feeling like he can verbally spar with a "worthy opponent", the implication being that he thinks he's the only smart guy in the entire jail. The bit about Brock Turner serving six months was some poignant commentary. Twelve years have passed since that storyline and it's unfortunately still very timely.

Edited by methodwriter85
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Although I've been happy to see some of the cast members from the tv show pop up, I could have done without seeing Tim and Mercer. There's enough creepy stuff going on without bringing them into the mix.

But I loved seeing Leo again! Of all the guys she dated, he was the nicest, kindest, and most straightforward. When she used him, he was honest and told her how he felt. And then when you compare him to Duncan, Logan, and Troy, he seems even better than he already is.

I also loved seeing Weevil again. I always liked his friendship with Veronica so I hope they aren't on the outs all season.

I totally cracked up that Daniel's mom hired Vinnie Van Lowe. She is obviously not a good judge of character.

Haley Dunphy! One thing I really like about this season of VM is that unlike Law & Order and other shows where the recognizable guest star is almost always the bad guy, we are getting random cameos from actors who just love the show.

I miss Wallace. I hope we see more of him before the season is over. I know it's not high school anymore where they can hang out all day, but I need some BFF time!

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo
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16 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

More like "you arrested me for murder and I paid you to destroy the tapes of my dad having sex with my girlfriend. "

I really really hope that the bomber isn't connected to Big Dick, because if you change it from "developer is using a bomber to scare kids off the boardwalk to tank real estate prices" to "developer is using a ghost to scare kids off the boardwalk to tank real estate prices" then it easily becomes the plot to a Scooby Doo episode.

I think Leo gave the tapes to Logan and Logan destroyed them. Didn't Keith see the degausser in Logan's suite at the Grand?

3 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

Although damn, I hate the continuity issues this show has always had. Dude, it's not that hard- Logan and Veronica have been together for 3 years not 5 years, because they got together in 2016, which is when the movie takes place. Geez.

Was it set in 2016? The movie came out in March of 2014. 

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21 minutes ago, General Days said:

I think Leo gave the tapes to Logan and Logan destroyed them. Didn't Keith see the degausser in Logan's suite at the Grand?

Was it set in 2016? The movie came out in March of 2014. 

I think the timeline is a little hinky because if they graduated in 2006 (at the end of the second season) the reunion should have been in 2016 (not 2014 when the movie actually came out).

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Ahh, I hate to be that person but I'ma bout to be that person. Nobody from middle Tennessee talks like that! We have some very strong accents here but that bar owner guy's was horrible! I did laugh at what he said about the Vols though.

Aww Leo. Who would leave him? I liked Logan's snark about Piz being in the back room. He's always been able to keep up with Veronica snark wise, his just comes out quietly whereas hers has always been more of a front.

Veronica's and Weevil's complicated relationship was always one of my favorite parts of the show.

Vinnie made me lol with the Avengers stuff.

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12 minutes ago, festivus said:

Ahh, I hate to be that person but I'ma bout to be that person. Nobody from middle Tennessee talks like that! We have some very strong accents here but that bar owner guy's was horrible! I did laugh at what he said about the Vols though.

Aww Leo. Who would leave him? I liked Logan's snark about Piz being in the back room. He's always been able to keep up with Veronica snark wise, his just comes out quietly whereas hers has always been more of a front.

Veronica's and Weevil's complicated relationship was always one of my favorite parts of the show.

Vinnie made me lol with the Avengers stuff.

OMG I laughed out loud at “Dolly Parton, Davy Crockett, Phil Fulmer.”

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41 minutes ago, festivus said:

Ahh, I hate to be that person but I'ma bout to be that person. Nobody from middle Tennessee talks like that! We have some very strong accents here but that bar owner guy's was horrible! I did laugh at what he said about the Vols though.

True. Although that guy was played by Trae Crowder, aka, the Liberal Redneck, who really does have a super-strong accent. He sounds a lot like some of my family who live in Southwest Virginia, though it looks like his town is closer to Kentucky. I was excited to see him!

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35 minutes ago, Proo said:

True. Although that guy was played by Trae Crowder, aka, the Liberal Redneck, who really does have a super-strong accent. He sounds a lot like some of my family who live in Southwest Virginia, though it looks like his town is closer to Kentucky. I was excited to see him!

I have no idea who that guy is so thanks. All I know is that a true mid Tenn accent sounds nothing like him. It's something that bugs me, I can't help it, that people think all Southerners sound alike. 

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5 hours ago, festivus said:

I have no idea who that guy is so thanks. All I know is that a true mid Tenn accent sounds nothing like him. It's something that bugs me, I can't help it, that people think all Southerners sound alike. 

I doubt the show actually planned this, but I could easily see a southern guy who owned a southern themed brewpub in California that relies on drunken tourists totally playing into the stereotype bad accent and all.

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21 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Mercer is disgusting as always. I almost didn't recognize him. He seemed so old. My first thought upon seeing Tim was "what? Lucky's dead" before I remembered Tim would've gotten a haircut since his Hearst days. Say what you will about season three, but it's had the most successful legal justice for the big bads.

I thought it was Lucky too! Took me a while to remember who Tim was too. He looks really different. Mercer got me right away with his voice. 

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P.S. Piz is over on the thoroughly fantastic Netflix show GLOW, which is about to start its third season.

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1 hour ago, sara416 said:

I thought it was Lucky too! Took me a while to remember who Tim was too. He looks really different. Mercer got me right away with his voice. 

I also thought it was Lucky before I remembered he was dead, but I don't recall Tim.

I've never re-watched season 3.

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12 hours ago, secnarf said:

I also thought it was Lucky before I remembered he was dead, but I don't recall Tim.

I've never re-watched season 3.

I had to go to Wikipedia to look up both Mercer and Tim because I didn't remember them. I started a re-watch to refresh my memory before this season dropped, but it dropped too soon so I didn't get to season 3. 

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On 7/20/2019 at 12:59 PM, moonshine71 said:

"I'm Leo, I'm a friend of Veronica's"

"Yeah, you arrested me for murder"

Logan has changed, he would have never have missed this chance at a quip(or completely forgotten Leo, he spent enough time at the sheriff's office), as he was clearly trying to make him uncomfortable.

Yeah. That was weird. 

On 7/20/2019 at 10:29 PM, bettername2come said:

I just remembered my second favorite ship of this show: Logan/Random Uplifting Quotes. They're not just for voicemails anymore.

Mercer is disgusting as always. I almost didn't recognize him. He seemed so old. My first thought upon seeing Tim was "what? Lucky's dead" before I remembered Tim would've gotten a haircut since his Hearst days. Say what you will about season three, but it's had the most successful legal justice for the big bads.

1.  I 100% stole Logan’s inspirational voicemail quotes and used to change my the voicemail on my flip phone daily. True story. 

2. Count me in with the hoards of people who also thought Tim was Lucky. I completely forgot they used the same actor. I also kind forgot Tim was involved in all of the Hearst rapes. (That’s what he’s in prison for, right? I remember Mercer. And that George Michael was supposed to be involved but then Michael Cera didn’t come back. But I honestly don’t remember much about Tim.)

On 7/20/2019 at 11:04 PM, Melgaypet said:

Leo was the best of Veronica's boyfriends. I stand by this.

See, I remember loving them together when I first watched the show as a teen, but wasn’t he 20 when she was 16? Or was she 17? Either way. Not a great look for a deputy. However, I won’t deny that KB and MG were pretty adorable. 

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1 hour ago, Brinny said:

2. Count me in with the hoards of people who also thought Tim was Lucky. I completely forgot they used the same actor. I also kind forgot Tim was involved in all of the Hearst rapes. (That’s what he’s in prison for, right? I remember Mercer. And that George Michael was supposed to be involved but then Michael Cera didn’t come back. But I honestly don’t remember much about Tim.)

No. Tim is in prison for killing the Dean. 

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28 minutes ago, Dani said:

No. Tim is in prison for killing the Dean. 

Wow. Clearly I need to rewatch S3. (Which I just discovered I own the other day when looking through some boxes. Obviously it wasn’t a favourite of mine.)

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I am pretty sure that Logan knew Leo, he was just kind of messing with him in a more passive way than he would before. His reactions were pretty hilarious though. "Piz is back there too. Hey Piz..."

Holy continuity cameos Batman! We get Mercer, Tim, Leo, Vinnie, and Max all in one episode! Great to see so many familiar faces, but it seems natural and not awkward in the way that some revivals are with former characters showing up for brief bits. Mercer especially is such a creepy fucker, and as many problems as season three had (and it had many) he was really great, as Logan's kind of weird rich friend and especially as the villain. Even now he can be superficially charming, but you get this feeling that the second the veneer drops he is cold as ice. 

"Is everyone in this town in law enforcement?" Pretty everyone in Neptune is a cop or a robber, or connected to one or both of the above, its like some kind of rule to get residency there. 

So Veronica still hasn't learned that sometimes she should bring actual backup to some situations where she can quickly get overwhelmed. Veronica is certainly tough, but she is just one petite woman and she can be physically over powered. Kristin does a great job at being scared, but also snapping out of it quickly once the danger is over, even if its clear she is still clearly freaked out. She is super lucky that Weevil was there. I mean, she cant think that even more criminal Weevil would be behind the bombings right? Thats pretty next level villainy for a guy she has been friends with for years.

I always liked Leo, but I also thought it was weird that they had a thing while she was still in high school. Yeah she was an upperclassmen and very mature for her age and he was a young deputy, but its still very questionable, especially for someone in law enforcement.

Edited by tennisgurl
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Sooo halfway through..

My feelings on this season are mostly positive, and I think it's good to talk about them hear since this episode has all the positives and the negatives.

The Positives:

- Kristen Bell and Enrico Colantoni - Yesss. Separetely they're amazing but together unstoppable. The biggest issue with season three was that it became more a show about Veronica Mars and Logan Echolls, and not a show about Veronica Mars, who's biggest supporter/mentor/trusted ally is her dad. It's so nice to see that firing on all cylinders this season.

- Logan - He's a bit boring but at least he isn't petting pillows in sadness. Plus, I like that he's changing but Veronica seems so unwilling too(which explains why she's so against him changing). 

- The humor - Still there!

- The Comebacks(Part One) - Leo! Vinny! Just this episode alone had two of my favs and the beats are so natural with them. 

- The more adult Neptune - As Veronica ages, so should the show. I do think the cussing thing is stupid considering all the other crap they show.

The Bad: 

- Too Many non-Veronica plots - The Congressman, the Cartel Boys, Patton Oswalt, Anything with Dick...who cares. If this season was going to be mystery-centric, it should've been Veronica centric. Yeah, so far no mention of her mom or her brother, or what happened in the book, so why not just say, "We're going to translate that, kinda" or just think of something to make this mystery more Veronica centric so we could get more Wallace and Weevil(and Mac, maybe Mac could've had her own plot in this, and therefore Tina would've appeared). As of now, I just kinda dont care.

-The Comebacks(Part Two) - Max? Umm okay. If anything, all the comebacks this episode, and in prevous episodes show one thing. Veronica Mars needs more female characters who aren't dead(bye Meg, Kendall and Lily), MIA(Mac, Parker and Jackie), or you know, nothing. The fact that all these cameos have been dudes, is kinda sad in a show starring a female character. I'm glad they're bringing in Maddie and Nicole, but nothing has come from them in two episodes, soooo...maybe focus on some female characters because wow, these cameos are a SAUSAGE FEST. Also, I refuse that Veronica would hang with Dick, or wouldn't lay down some boundaries between the two. Dick is a racist, jerk who DRUGGED Veronica, put her on a bed, and left her there for his brother to rape her(which he did)

Also some of the continuity of the comebacks are wonky(Logan and Leo, for example). Like in this episode, why did some murder lover like Patton Oswalt's character not say, "Well his son blew people up with a bomb!"). No one is mentioning Beaver...which I guess because if they do, they have to touch on him being a rapist and the writers' love for Dick as a character would have to be "reasoned with" on the show?

The Mystery

Okay, my theory right now, and it's a worrisome one, is that Nicole is the bomber. She's going after date rapists, everyone else be damned. I pray this isn't it. It would be pretty twisted and give me terrible flashbacks to those awfully written feminists. I mean, this show gets REALLY murky with this. Veronica blaming Madison for her rape more than, say Dick(who did all the above). The feminists and their actions. For Nicole to be the bomber, it's just not something this show has proven it could handle. Nor is it what I want to go(again, Veronica has so few female friends...or female characters in her orbit). 

But given that date rapist #2 was bombed, that's the direction it's pointing, especially since no one else pointed it in that direction. I guess I'll keep going(over the next week, I marathoned all four tonight) and hope I'm wrong(but like Veronica, I'm never wrong! :p)

Edited by thelegacies87
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On 7/20/2019 at 11:00 PM, secnarf said:

The pizza guy is getting on my last nerve.

He's still on my possible bomber list. Apart from his enjoyment of the attention, there's the fancy story he told about the nail in his back which actually came from the hardware store. 

I don't know, he just seems sketchy. 

I wonder if both Clive and Keith were pretending to be drunk. 

I'm surprised no one is commenting on the guy standing on the beach without a head. Briefly. That was unexpected. 

Edited by Melina22
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I too am enjoying the cameos from past cast members but it's truly a shame that Veronica is, and has mostly been, surrounded by men. I'm really missing Mac. I'm sure Veronica would be a difficult friend to have and I wish the show would explore that more. All we got this episode was her lack of understanding of Weevil. She should've known better. I like the character beats though and appreciated Leo's attempt to interject some wisdom in her relationship tirade.

Logan is impressing me with all his growth. His snark, his clear intelligence, and his ability to master his jealousy has been great. While I'm happy for the character, I have a sinking feeling that it doesn't mean anything good for his longevity. 

UO: The relationship between Keith and Veronica has always made me uncomfortable. When she was a teenager, they were waaaayyyy enmeshed and some of her troubles stemmed from his parental inadequacies. Similarly, she screwed him over when she was in college. I wonder how Logan feels since the Mars are such a unit and he's on the outside. Also, when Maddie came, there's no way they'd talk about the case with her close by for fear she'd do exactly what she did. Veronica at least should recall exactly how she was at that age.

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21 hours ago, colormeblue said:

UO: The relationship between Keith and Veronica has always made me uncomfortable. 

Valid opinion, but I can't totally agree with you. I find their relationship unusually heartwarming EXCEPT when Veronica makes sex-related jokes, which she started doing in Season 1. She gets away with it because Keith plays such a paternal, non-skeevy person. Nevertheless, it always makes me cringe a bit. 

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On 7/27/2019 at 2:39 PM, Melina22 said:

Valid opinion, but I can't totally agree with you. I find their relationship unusually heartwarming EXCEPT when Veronica makes sex-related jokes, which she started doing in Season 1. She gets away with it because Keith plays such a paternal, non-skeevy person. Nevertheless, it always makes me cringe a bit. 

It always makes me cringe a little too. And then I feel like I'm just being double-standardish about it, bc (I am a female) and I would totally make those jokes to my mom, and honestly 99% of people would not find that cringy (maybe weird, but not cringy).

I think we have to remember, Veronica and Keith are like bestfriends even if he is her father. So I just think these comments wouldn't be so cringy if Veronica was a man or Keith was a woman.

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The time continuity problems have been bugging me too, but I prefer the time jump in a way because as Leo said, it puts Veronica "well into her 30s" along with her friends, and they definitely look closer to mid 30s than early 30s. Then again, it's canon that they graduated in 2006, which made them 28 when the reunion happened in the movie (2016), so maybe we can pretend season 4 is taking place in 2022 or something? It does bug, but I also don't buy that they're only 31 in this season, and the comment about Veronica/Logan's 5 year relationship as well as how long Keith has been walking with a cane solidify that they are viewing the movie events as having taken place roughly 5 years ago.

I loved the Mercer and Tim cameos! Can anyone remind me who Lucky is though, since I've seen a bunch of you mention it's the same actor? I don't want to Google because I live in fear of spoilers for this season.

The Logan/Leo scene was one of my favorites so far this season (despite them not acknowledging that they already know each other). I laughed out loud.

I also enjoyed the callback to Logan's inspirational quotes, and the congressman's "You're a strange individual, aren't you?"

EDIT: Watched episodes 3 and 4 together and was mixing up events.

Edited by jade.black
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On 7/20/2019 at 11:04 PM, Melgaypet said:

Leo was the best of Veronica's boyfriends. I stand by this.

Truth. Team Leo

On 7/21/2019 at 4:14 AM, methodwriter85 said:

It's weird to see Max Greenfield back in the Leo role because I so thoroughly associate him with Schmidt from the New Girl. (Well, the roughly four seasons I watched of the show- I think I tuned out when they gave the girls baby rabies and they tried awkwardly fitting in Damian Wayans Junior back to the show after he left for greener pastures that got cancelled.)

He really is such a charming guy, and Leo is such a good guy. I feel like he's the guy that Veronica could have ended up with, in the alternative universe where Lily was never killed and Veronica got to live out high school happily before skipping off to San Diego State. You can see in that conversation with Leo just how good he could be for Veronica, but she's just too damaged.

Although damn, I hate the continuity issues this show has always had. Dude, it's not that hard- Logan and Veronica have been together for 3 years not 5 years, because they got together in 2016, which is when the movie takes place. Geez.

The Tim thing is funny, because I remember back on TWOP there were discussions by people who were convinced that Tim was being played by a woman in drag and it was going to be a big reveal. In reality, the awful wig and fake beard were just trying to make the actor look different from his role as Lucky. It just had the unfortunate effect of making him look like a drag king.

As for Mercer, I  LOVVVVEEEEEEDDDD seeing him again. Ryan Devlin was so awesome in that part, and he felt so "on" for the minute or two cameo we saw him in.  I loved how he wanted to keep talking to Veronica because he misses feeling like he can verbally spar with a "worthy opponent", the implication being that he thinks he's the only smart guy in the entire jail. The bit about Brock Turner serving six months was some poignant commentary. Twelve years have passed since that storyline and it's unfortunately still very timely.

Max Greenfield is just so delightful. He has this natural charm and charisma that makes it hard not to love him. I have been binge watching the entire show, so I already knew him as Schmidt, but I loved him as Leo and still think he was the best.

On 7/21/2019 at 1:55 PM, festivus said:

I have no idea who that guy is so thanks. All I know is that a true mid Tenn accent sounds nothing like him. It's something that bugs me, I can't help it, that people think all Southerners sound alike. 

As a Louisiana native, I feel your pain. I guess non Southerners can't hear the distinction?

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