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S02.E06: The Bad Mother


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3 hours ago, teddysmom said:

Bonnie never leaving the hospital - my father was in a medically induced coma for about 3 weeks, I was his only relative in town, and I didn't sit at the hospital all day.   What good is it doing, the nurses will call if something happens or she wakes up when you aren't there.

I think it also depends on how paranoid/guilty/martyr-like you are. When my sister had an accident in college, my mom flew there the same day and insisted on staying the night in her hospital room even though it was NOT a life threatening injury or anything.

And last year when my grandmother was in the hospital (again, non-life threatening), my aunt flew halfway around the world and insisted on staying at the hospital basically 24/7 until my grandmother was discharged. They weren't sure how long she would be in the hospital so my aunt ended up living at the hospital for over two weeks (this despite the fact that her brother and sister live in the same city and were checking on my grandmother every day). My cousins were urging my aunt to leave the hospital for more than a few hours so she could get some rest but she refused. She insisted on being there all the time.

Apparently that hospital martyr gene runs on my mom's side of the family!

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

She's from Santa Cruz, frankly, I'd be shocked if she didn't own a wetsuit, and a wetsuit that doesn't fit "like a glove" is completely useless.

They really aren't that expensive either, and she's a common size, so finding a used one in that area wouldn't be hard, but I suspect she's owned it for quite a while anyway.

Yes, there's a reason that one of the most well known/mainstream wetsuit companies is named Body Glove. They're supposed to fit like that! The neoprene stretches to accommodate your body.

They can be bought brand new for reasonable prices, especially if you know where to look online (so much easier now than back in ye olden days before the internet when you were stuck just going to the local surf shop). In coastal California cities, it's pretty easy to find a used on locally.  There are always people on Craigslist or FB groups for sharing/purging items that are getting rid of them for one reason or another (they bought a new one, their kid outgrew the one from last year, etc).

In addition, places like Santa Cruz have outdoor sports companies that cater to newbies/tourists so you can go take classes in surfing, kayaking, paddleboarding, etc. and they provide all the equipment you need including the wetsuits. Those places also sell their used wetsuits for pretty cheap.

Another option is just knowing someone in the community. Often if you know just one person who surfs, they know a bunch of other people who surf and it's common for them to have old wetsuits just collecting dust in the garage. They will happily give one to a newbie!

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11 minutes ago, lala2 said:

In DC and Maryland, custody proceedings are open to the public. Anyone can come and observe if they wish. They are not generally closed proceedings. If a sensitive issue comes up, it can be closed, but that doesn't normally happen.  Again, abuse and neglect proceedings are definitely closed. This was a custody case. I see no reason why it would be closed to the public.

A quick Google search got me this from the Superior Ct of CA, Santa Clara County (http://www.scscourt.org/general_info/community/visit.shtml😞

"Courthouse visits (individuals):  Generally, all Court proceedings are open to the public, with the exceptions of Juvenile Justice Court, Juvenile Dependency Court and select closed hearings."

That is what I would expect honestly.  

Interesting. I was seeking guardianship of a related minor and had to go against Cps. It was a four half day trial and was closed. I can’t imagine why it’s in the public’s best interest to witness family problems. 

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Re: Celeste, her sex life, and her children, I think there are a few possibilities:

Possibility #1 - Things happened exactly the way that Mary Louise's lawyer suggested. Celeste had an overnight sex guest when the boys were around, and one of the boys came into the bedroom and saw the guy, and tried to wake her up and couldn't, and later he told Mary Louise about it. (If this was the case, Celeste would think that the kids never knew about the guy until she went to court.)

Possibility #2 - Celeste had an overnight sex guest when the boys were around, and the boys never knew, and Mary Louise only knows about it because of her private investigator, but Mary Louise wants the judge to think that one of the boys witnessed it. In this case, it would be hard for Celeste to say it never happened, because she couldn't know for sure whether one of the boys had walked in.

Possibility #3 - Celeste has never had an overnight sex guest when the boys were around, but Mary Louise nonetheless decided to hurl that accusation at Celeste via the attorney, in the hopes that it would stick. One would expect Celeste to deny it, though - but her Ambien use might have left her confused, wondering if maybe she had an overnight sex guest when the boys were around and she just forgot about it.

We know Celeste had the bartender over when the boys were spending the night at Mary Louise's, but we don't know for sure whether there were any others.

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Regarding Madeline In the wedding dress, didn’t the younger daughter say it smelled like someone had a party in the house? implying she was stoned and drunk so not making the best decisions.

Also I think the least believable part of her character is that she drives a Buick! A Buick!! Idk but no way a girl like her in a town like that would drive American when the rest have Audi’s, Teslas, etc.

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Agree too about the detective and have wondered as well why she would care so much about this case and spend so much time on this one case where a sleazebag died and that has basically been closed for a year or so to most people.  SHe has nothing better to do, no more important cases to work?  Spending an AWFUL lot of time it seems just on a hunch that someone is lying, despite 5 eyewitnesses all saying the same thing. 

I'm really tired of seeing her sitting at her laptop, watching the same testimony over and over again. Does she think she's going to crack a code if she watches them 1,000 times or something?

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6 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

Speaking of which,

--they have not worked hard enough to get us to care enough about Bonnie's mother to spend what feels like fully half the show watching her sleep.  I'm not sure if I care what it symbolizes, because it's boring.  

I completely agree. I hope she dies quietly in her sleep before the next episode and is just a mention.

6 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

--Renata was gold again.  I think it was really good of the show to have Gordon and Renata driving down that same road that they drove on a few episodes back, with Renata raging within an inch of their lives both times.  The stuffing of the tissues into Gordon's mouth was hysterical.  Renata's SL carried the show for me last night. 

I laughed so hard when she did that! 

6 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

--Again, Jane having a ton of free time doesn't seem real.  Even if the surfboard was loaned, where did she get her adult wetsuit that fit her like a glove?  This isn't a person making minimum wage, I'm sorry. 

I thought Jane said in season 1 that she did bookkeeping from her home. I don't remember if she had a degree at accounting or not. I used to date an accountant that worked from his house and made a good 'California' living. When we first see her at the aquarium, I thought she was a volunteer. Maybe a 2nd job or did they explain it?

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1 hour ago, Lemons said:

Interesting. I was seeking guardianship of a related minor and had to go against Cps. It was a four half day trial and was closed. I can’t imagine why it’s in the public’s best interest to witness family problems. 

Your case was closed because it was likely some kind of abuse/neglect proceeding. Those kinds of proceedings are typically closed to the public, but your average custody isn't. 

Now, most of the time the ppl in the courtrooms are those with cases or supportive family members and/or friends. Most ppl aren't just hanging around family court to observe hearings . . . . at least that had not been my experience. Law students, law clerks, and attorneys observe court on occasion. It is a good way to get a feel for a judge, esp if you are new to the jurisdiction or the judge is new to the bench. 

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31 minutes ago, HollyG said:
31 minutes ago, HollyG said:
6 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

--Again, Jane having a ton of free time doesn't seem real.  Even if the surfboard was loaned, where did she get her adult wetsuit that fit her like a glove?  This isn't a person making minimum wage, I'm sorry.  

I thought Jane said in season 1 that she did bookkeeping from her home. I don't remember if she had a degree at accounting or not. I used to date an accountant that worked from his house and made a good 'California' living. When we first see her at the aquarium, I thought she was a volunteer. Maybe a 2nd job or did they explain it?

Last season, they made a point of showing how poorly Jane lives compared to the others (sleeping on a sofa-bed in the living room of her presumably one-bedroom apartment), and, yes, she did bookkeeping from home. So she was definitely struggling last season. However, what was also clear last season was that the majority of Jane's problems were emotional (related to her rape, and Ziggy's troubles at school), rather than financial. Lack of money was noticeable in Jane's life, but it didn't seem to be a problem.

What I also noticed (upon rewatch), was that last season Renata mentioned that she was on the board of the aquarium. I assumed that she had pulled some strings and got Jane a better-paying job (or second job) at the aquarium where she had connections.

Furthermore, at the beginning of the season, Celeste was trying to send Jane child support payments from Perry's estate, but it sounded like Jane was not taking them. I believe the conversation ended with Celeste arguing that Jane and Ziggy were entitled to Perry's money and Jane should take the payments, and I don't believe it was followed up on after that. So maybe Jane is now receiving regular child support from Celeste on behalf of Perry, which given his wealth could be a nice chunk of change.  I could buy that a relief of both her financial and emotional burdens caused her to free up more time to really enjoy life.

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21 hours ago, chocolatine said:

This is all too ridiculous. The judge doesn't even think about assessing ML's fitness as a parent until Celeste asks her to? Baloney!

This episode felt like network television.

Yes I was wondering when we were going to get around to determining whether or not Mary Louise would be a fit mother; she did raise a monster, yes?

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33 minutes ago, lala2 said:

Your case was closed because it was likely some kind of abuse/neglect proceeding. Those kinds of proceedings are typically closed to the public, but your average custody isn't. 

Now, most of the time the ppl in the courtrooms are those with cases or supportive family members and/or friends. Most ppl aren't just hanging around family court to observe hearings . . . . at least that had not been my experience. Law students, law clerks, and attorneys observe court on occasion. It is a good way to get a feel for a judge, esp if you are new to the jurisdiction or the judge is new to the bench. 

Are the terms "seeking custody" or "seeking guardianship" interchangeable?  

With this case the grandmother is seeking guardianship because she claims there's abuse and neglect with the hitting the child and neglecting their safety with strange men sleeping over.  

Isn't it the case that if it has come to the point of needing a trial there are accusations of something bad?

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2 hours ago, Lemons said:

Interesting. I was seeking guardianship of a related minor and had to go against Cps. It was a four half day trial and was closed. I can’t imagine why it’s in the public’s best interest to witness family problems. 

It’s more an issue of transparency.  If it’s a public hearing, then the public can witness the process and feel comfortable with the ultimate decision being made.  

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22 hours ago, chocolatine said:

This episode felt like network television.

I laughed so loudly. The ultimate burn.

21 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

With the news that broke this week about the behind-the-scenes drama of this season, I'm not surprised it's a mess, but there's more at work here than just stylistic or editing issues. The writing this season is TERRIBLE.

Yeah, it's really, really bad. And I started off positive on this season! But it's clear Kelley has lost the plot, and doesn't know what to do with these characters with no book to guide him. Your point that no one is doing anything is right on, but also - the relationships have lost their depth. The ladies get together to bitch at each other every episode and show up in each other's storylines, but I don't feel the sisterhood and the genuine communication between women that resonated in every scene last season. Maybe because a man is trying to replicate a woman's work.

16 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Bonnie said she married a man she doesn't ------ (love?!?)

I feel so validated knowing Bonnie agrees with me that Nathan is trash.

4 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Jane said, “Actually, I came to Monterey in search of a good man. A good man who happened to have bad night.”

What does that mean?

The implication is that she was hoping Ziggy's dad was not a monster but someone decent so she could convince herself that what happened to her was just a misunderstanding between good people. But honestly, I call bullshit on pretty much every scene between Jane and Mary Louise this season. Why the hell is Jane still talking to her? Why hasn't she understood this woman is out to get them? Why hasn't she moved Ziggy into Madeline's house and kept him away from the evil grandmother?

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

In the previous episode when they were all gathered on the beach for the emergency night time meeting, Celeste told them that they were all on Mary Louise's witness list.

One of the questioned why ML would put them on her witness list since they're obviously on Celeste's side. That's when the whole idea of ML doing it just so force them to perjure themselves came up. But that makes it all the stranger that ML didn't have any of them questioned.

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I'm really tired of seeing her sitting at her laptop, watching the same testimony over and over again. Does she think she's going to crack a code if she watches them 1,000 times or something?

Given the news about this season being chopped all to hell and parts reshot, I am really wondering what kind of scenes got filmed that we'll never see, and definitely suspect that the constant repetition of stuff like this is filler to try to cover the gaps.

Overall I'm just disappointed to see the show go out like this after such a great first season. Everything about the custody battle is ludicrous, but apparently that's what the entire season is hinging on. Bonnie's big confession scene fell flat because they didn't put in the work to make us understand or care about her relationship with her mom. Most of the cast is being wasted - the kids are barely characters anymore. There is some serious weirdness around the edges that I'm now putting down to half-revealed unrealized glimmers of whatever Andrea Arnold was trying to do. I'm sure it would have been more interesting than this; at least it would have had a real point of view. 

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38 minutes ago, Lemons said:

Are the terms "seeking custody" or "seeking guardianship" interchangeable?  

With this case the grandmother is seeking guardianship because she claims there's abuse and neglect with the hitting the child and neglecting their safety with strange men sleeping over.  

Isn't it the case that if it has come to the point of needing a trial there are accusations of something bad?

Abuse/neglect proceedings are different from regular custody cases. No one's parental rights are at risk of being terminated in your normal custody case. It's usually just two parents battling it out in court, or a third party against the bio parent(s). Also, the bio parents are afforded attorneys in abuse/neglect proceedings. That does not occur in custody cases. 

There are not always allegations of bad acts if a case goes to trial. Sometimes, you just can't settle a case, and it goes to trial. That doesn't necessarily mean one party has something explosive to share. 

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Nicole is the reason I tuned in last season and stayed this season. Surprise of the season though is Laura Dern, both her character and her performance I've gone from hating to enjoying. Look forward to next week. 

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I’m pretty sure it was established that Perry cut off all contact with Mary Louise and moved to California to start over. It’s a bit fuzzy on the timeline, but it seems like maybe that happened after whatever went down with Perry’s brother. I recall Perry mentioning to the therapist that he and Celeste bonded in part due to their lack of family. Mary Louise has only known her grandsons a few months from when she showed up after Perry’s death. She’s only recently permanently moved to that state when she purchased the apartment in Jane’s complex. All of this would be taken into consideration with Mary Louise’s bid for custody. 

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2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

It’s more an issue of transparency.  If it’s a public hearing, then the public can witness the process and feel comfortable with the ultimate decision being made.  

I understand needing transparency in our justice system but I just don’t see the public’s interest being served in listening to the reason mom thinks Susie should be with her every weekend. Plus I think they usually mail the decision to the attorneys so the public never gets to know little Susie’s schedule. 

Regarding this show, the bullies already got the information that the father was a rapist from their gossipy moms.  Imagine the gossip of Celeste screwing guys in public bathrooms after just meeting them.  

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They've spent some much valuable time on the story line of Bonnie's mother. Enough, already! 

There's so many new twists.  They'll have very little time to wrap up those loose ends in next week's finale.

Could Mary Louise have hidden spy cameras of some type in Celeste's home? It would be pretty easy to do nowadays.

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So is Corey really just some guy, and not up to anything? I dont WANT him to be up to something, Jane and Ziggy have been through enough, but if he isnt all of these hints and weird behaviors seem pretty pointless. Which, to be fair, is pretty consistent with last season and the never ending red herrings and people acting suspicious for no reason. 

What is even happening at this point? This whole custody trail, even by the standards of TV courtroom melodrama, is just ridiculous. "Your honor, I accuse Celeste of being a big ho bag in the first degree!" Who is allowed to just throw someones sex history all over the place, especially when it means basically nothing? The twins dont want to go with Mary Louise, Celeste, while struggling, is still clearly a capable parent, and Mary Louis is practically cackling evilly with her private investigators and obvious passive aggression, how is this even a thing? Stop this madness and let everyone go back to driving along the coastline, Jean from Freaks and Geeks!

I admit though, I do so hate giving Mary Louis even one single point, but Celeste really could use some help with the boys right about now, mostly with the black outs while on drugs stuff. That could really go badly with her having kids around.

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15 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Celeste was doing this when the boys weren't home.  But I take your point.

7 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Celeste has been careful to only bring guys back when the twins are not in the house.  ML brought them back very early the one time and so they saw the guy.  

They were put on the list to scare Celeste into settling and giving ML shared custody.  Look, we'll harass your friends just because we can.

On the stand, Celeste admitted that she DID bring a man home ONCE while the kids were there. "But he was gone before they woke up."

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I liked Bonnie and Maddie having a little fisticuffs moment. And I thought Bonnie's speech was very well-written and acted. Reminded me of the episode of "Roseanne" when her abusive father dies and she reads a forgiveness letter to his casket.

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On 7/14/2019 at 11:24 PM, Bama said:

Mary Louise needs killing.

That’s all I’ve got.

My money is on the twins doing it.

 

Does anyone have a count of how many times they used a shot of a car driving over that bridge throughout the season?  Seriously, I am expecting the bridge to get named on the credits, it is used so often to transition scenes.  

At first I assumed we were being set up for something like one of the Monterey 5 going over it while driving in rage to get to one of the secret meet-ups to agree, again, to keep to the story.  

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13 hours ago, lala2 said:

Abuse/neglect proceedings are different from regular custody cases. No one's parental rights are at risk of being terminated in your normal custody case. It's usually just two parents battling it out in court, or a third party against the bio parent(s). Also, the bio parents are afforded attorneys in abuse/neglect proceedings. That does not occur in custody cases. 

It's been a long time since I took family law, but Mary Louise is a grandparent with no current custody rights. In order to get custody from Celeste - who's Josh and Max's only living parent/guardian - wouldn't she have to prove abuse and/or neglect?

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2 hours ago, buttercupia said:

if you haven't yet, check out Enlightened on HBO on demand.  It's so good.

That's a show that was before its time.  I just watched recently and enjoyed it more than when it originally aired

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19 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He's got to be in on this, with either the cops or ML.

But if he is a plant and she keeps telling him to go away, that's not going to get her to talk to him.  Maybe he just really likes her and you know men, when you say go away, that's catnip to them. 

I liked the other guy the coffee shop owner. 

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Ed has to be creeped out by how Tori and Joseph seem to be working him in tandem. I don't know why he even met with Tori again. I still think their behavior is making him soften toward Maddie because he realizes they probably pulled something similar on her but she was too self-involved to notice.

Is Juliette an undocumented immigrant? Were Renata and Gordon holding that over her head?

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I thought Gordon was paying Juliette under the table for what she was *a-hem* doing for HIM 'under the table'?

Except he didn't actually pay her, did he? She seems to have accumulated years of IOUs. Now I'm confused: did Renata know Juliet wasn't being paid? Was Gordon having sex with Juliette so Juliette would keep quiet about not getting paid?

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I know they're rich but what kind of young nanny earns a severance of $72,000?  

That's probably $1,000 a month for six years. I know they called it severance, but it probably was the salary she wasn't paid, including the for the sex work. Gordon was probably hoping calling it severance would make her keep her mouth shut about it.

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Even Mary Louise hasn't really done much, besides petition for custody,

Gotta disagree here. ML has mindfcuked every one of the Monterey 5, though to a lessor extent Bonnie mainly because she's had less contact with Bonnie. Her actions have driven the increasing infighting between the women which makes their keeping the secret more and more tenuous.

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They've spent too much time on Bonnie's mother's story this season.

I've think they've misused the character. IMO she would've been better used as a foil for ML, or at least someone who would've defended Bonnie against her. I don't know about Bonnie killing Perry because she had longstanding rage at Elizabeth. That seems like a a stretch to me. Now maybe if she killed Mary Louise...(And I'm wondering if Crystal Fox's role initially was bigger but was dialed back in deference to Streep.)

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When all is said and done, no, I'm not hate-watching. This is nowhere near the debacle of what happened with GoT.

I feel the same way. IMO, what happened with GoT was a huge slap in the face to the loyal fans who had stuck with that show for way longer than two years.

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I'm quite sure single mothers don't all become celibate for fear their children might see a man one day.

I used to listen to Dr. Laura (it was definitely hate-listening) back when she was still on terrestrial radio. One of the directives she always gave to women considering getting a divorce was they couldn't date or have sex until all their children had reached age 18. Her theory or whatever is that it was morally/psychologically damaging to the kids to see their parents go through likely multiple sexual relationships outside of marriage. Laura didn't seem to think the women could successfully hide these relationships from their children in the long run. Apparently some women subscribed to this theory, or at least they acted like they did on the radio show.

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15 minutes ago, BigBlueMastiff said:
54 minutes ago, JoeyCrown said:

I did not understand the bankruptcy scene ... was that an auction?

Those are the people claiming they are owed $ 

That was my take. I don't know how bankruptcy works AT ALL, but I understood it to be that, since the court had seized all the Kleins' assets, anyone who was owed money by the Kleins had to petition the court to receive the payment they were owed out of what was seized. Maybe someone who actually knows what they're talking about can correct me if I'm wrong.

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On 7/15/2019 at 1:38 PM, LibertarianSlut said:

--I wasn't...charmed by Maddie in the wedding dress the way Ed was.  At the beginning of the scene, Ed tells the girls to put their mom's food in the fridge, so Maddie had a rough idea of when Ed would be returning.  This cute little wedding dress singing felt calculated to me.  I'm surprised Ed fell for it.  

I was sooo surprised that he fell for it.  When he started to say about their previous conversation and the magic wand or whatever, I thought he was going to say something like, "Manipulating me like this isn't going to help you."

On 7/15/2019 at 12:14 AM, answerphone said:

Did anyone else think the scene with Celeste applying her makeup was supposed to be immediately after chugging the vodka? I assumed she was fixing herself up to go on a drunken prowel for a guy.

Because she put eye drops in her eyes, I assumed that it was the next day and she was trying to get the red out.  Also, the makeup she had on was very demure, and if she was going on the prowl, she would have been more tarted-up.  Likewise with her clothing, which was very bland (it was tan/grey-ish).  

But given that, it was confusing that the next time they showed her, she was on the witness stand, in an entirely different outfit, which was a cool shade of blue.  I think it was just more evidence of the editing/continuity problems.

On 7/15/2019 at 12:25 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I feel like it was out of character for Ed to call Mrs. McGee, and I don't really get it.  I "get" that Madeleine is acting weird and he's supposed to be upset by it, but I still really don't think that this is him.

What I don't get, is that Tits McGee made it sound like it would be at least somewhat for revenge on her part, which would imply Joseph not knowing.  So was that a hologram that Ed saw in the bar when she was coming on to him?

On 7/15/2019 at 1:31 AM, FemmyV said:

Was it just me, or did the guy in the last photo resemble Keith Urban? Bit of a gag, no?

I noticed that, too!

On 7/15/2019 at 9:00 AM, zobot81 said:

Fair enough (and I do love a good 48 hours reference)!  The problem for me is that the prosecution presented a simulation in which Perry literally fell further down the stairs, just because he was pushed.  They didn't show him clearing the flight of stairs and launching to his death from a forceful push.  And at the very least, I do not understand how the blessed hell they can distinguish between a fall or a push based on a difference of landing twelve inches up or down the stairs.

I also had a problem with the simulation (leaving out the whole issue of whether it would have been allowed or not) not showing the difference between the actual trajectory for the forceful push versus the slip-and-fall.  And had it been an actual slip-and-fall, given Perry's height and build, I don't see any way that the body would have simply stopped after a handful of steps, like they showed.  For both cases, the body would have reached the rebar landing.

16 hours ago, stagmania said:

Why the hell is Jane still talking to her? Why hasn't she understood this woman is out to get them? Why hasn't she moved Ziggy into Madeline's house and kept him away from the evil grandmother?

My question was, why was she letting ML continue goading her outside the apartment door, especially when she knows she is a potential witness and ML can try to use her crazed cussing door-shoving fit against her?

16 hours ago, stagmania said:

The implication is that she was hoping Ziggy's dad was not a monster but someone decent so she could convince herself that what happened to her was just a misunderstanding between good people.  

I did not catch what Jane said at that point, so I'm taking everyone's word about the words that she said.  If so, that is waaayy too much retconn for the show.  The writers showed us that she was absolutely traumatized last season when she first showed up in Monterey.  Her flashbacks this season have been horrifying, and she has spoken about it/him with barely held-back rage.  No part of her was entertaining the idea that he was a good person and that the rape was a misunderstanding.

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50 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

I did not catch what Jane said at that point, so I'm taking everyone's word about the words that she said.  If so, that is waaayy too much retconn for the show.  The writers showed us that she was absolutely traumatized last season when she first showed up in Monterey.  Her flashbacks this season have been horrifying, and she has spoken about it/him with barely held-back rage.  No part of her was entertaining the idea that he was a good person and that the rape was a misunderstanding.

I posted what Jane said. I transcribed it word for word, because it confused me, and I wanted the opinions of all of you. 

I did not rewatch the first season, but I tend to agree with you that she gave us the impression in season one that she was not considering the possibility that the man who raped her could have been a decent guy. 

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Now I'm confused: did Renata know Juliet wasn't being paid? Was Gordon having sex with Juliette so Juliette would keep quiet about not getting paid?

Juliet was being paid her regular salary, as far as I know. What she was asking for in the hearing seemed to be a promise Gordon made to her that she would be set up for life, or at least given some kind of pension fund, once they no longer needed a nanny. 

Severance is generally paid to an employee when they are terminated without notice and without cause, due to a company downsizing or whatever. When they were discussing severance back at the house, I think Renata assumed they would pay her some nominal lump sum, like a month's wages or something, once their accounts were unfrozen.   

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2 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

That was my take. I don't know how bankruptcy works AT ALL, but I understood it to be that, since the court had seized all the Kleins' assets, anyone who was owed money by the Kleins had to petition the court to receive the payment they were owed out of what was seized. Maybe someone who actually knows what they're talking about can correct me if I'm wrong.

I think the court decides who has standing in the claims on any assets, they pay off loans, creditors, etc first then start going down the list of anyone else with a claim.  Depending on the money & property seized, most everyone gets a percentage.

This is what I've gleaned if one of our tenants file bankruptcy and we sue to get any back rent we can.   We usually settle out of court and take what we can get, and write it off.   We manage commercial/retail properties. 

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Severance is generally paid to an employee when they are terminated without notice and without cause, due to a company downsizing or whatever. When they were discussing severance back at the house, I think Renata assumed they would pay her some nominal lump sum, like a month's wages or something, once their accounts were unfrozen.   

I know what severance is. I've received it and it was basically my salary for a certain period of time after which I was no longer employed. The amount of severance indicated for Juliette seemed to me like such an outsized number for someone working even full-time as nanny that I figured it was either hush money or a combination of hush money and her back pay. For hush money it's a odd number and I can't imagine how it was calculated in a way that would've made simple sense to Juliette unless it was somehow based on what she was paid or was supposed to be paid in salary. Salary for her nanny job and/or for the sex work on the side.

Edited by Joimiaroxeu
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On 7/15/2019 at 4:08 PM, Blissfool said:

I'm just worried that now she knows the secret about Perry's death. Loose lips sink ships.

So they must be setting up a dramatic surprise scene in the courtroom for the finale...Just as the judge is getting ready to announce her decision, Bonnie's mom crawls/stumbles in, still in her hospital gown, and in a barely audible voice she recounts what Bonnie said about how Perry really died...then she tearfully utters the words "Baby, I'm sorry", says a few mystic incantations, and collapses dead on the courtroom floor.

Also, why on earth would Ed have selected "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" for their wedding?!?!

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Regarding the bankruptcy court proceeding (it's called a 341 hearing), that's sort of like what happens. Usually, the trustee calls up individual debtors, one-by-one, goes over the petition with each, and asks if there are any creditors who wish to be heard. If yes, then the creditor can come up to the table where the trustee and the debtor are sitting and ask questions. Typically, though, the room is full of debtors, with very few creditors present. The whole thing lasts about 10 minutes per debtor, tops, unless there are serious issues with the petition (e.g., fraud). I once represented a creditor at a 341, and I was the only one with questions for the debtor (who was a trip -- she had a propensity to use whatever name struck her fancy, so the alias list topped 300-ish names, but we thought she always used her correct SSN; we had to get her on the record confirming that she had never used a different SSN to open an account other than the one my client knew about).

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2 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

The amount of severance indicated for Juliette seemed to me like such an outsized number for someone working even full-time as nanny that I figured it was either hush money or a combination of hush money and her back pay.

She asked for two sums.  The nanny amount was about $70K.  The "other stuff" was 160K and she didn't refer to that as severance. 

The 70K amount would seem to indicate back pay except that would be a lot of back pay and it's weird to refer to that as severance, in my opinion.  When I think of severance, I always think in terms of a settlement/thank you for your service thing in addition to what was already paid.

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She asked for two sums.  The nanny amount was about $70K.  The "other stuff" was 160K and she didn't refer to that as severance.  

I'm still thinking neither amount was severance. I think the $160k was essentially hush money and the $70k was several years' worth of back pay. It sounds to me like very early on they had stopped paying her because Gordon was diverting the funds. That's one reason why I wondered whether she was an undocumented immigrant or had overstayed her visa. Gordon could've used the threat of reporting her to avoid having to pay her.

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I'm sure this has probably been brought up here (but I'm always late to the party!) Anyway, I find it interesting that Meryl Streep's character is named Mary Louise. That is Meryl Streep's real name...Mary Louise Streep. (Everyone probably already knows that!)

Edited by chenoa333
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On 7/15/2019 at 9:13 PM, stagmania said:

The implication is that she was hoping Ziggy's dad was not a monster but someone decent so she could convince herself that what happened to her was just a misunderstanding between good people.

But that invalidates the entirety of her storyline from the first season. She came to Monterey to find the man that raped her. She was clear about this. She even fantasized about pulling a gun on him. That line about seeking a good man who has a bad night had to have been written by a man, I can't imagine a woman writing that line unless it was part of a bigger arc where Jane eventually realizes she was raped.

Is it possible to misunderstood what she said? I can't imagine a line like that not making it into the Twitter stream for the hashtag or inspiring a think piece or two.

Edited by sashayshante
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I dont think that Ed will go for the teachers wife, but I really hope he actually goes for it. Not only because revenge cheating is bad, but because NOBODY who tells you that they have a masturbation journal and that your name is in it is going to be a totally emotionally stable person who want in your life. Either he becomes a pawn in some elaborate revenge plot against her husband, or she has serious stalker tendencies and starts taking his daughter to carnivals and burning bunnies. I mean...you dont just say that to a person, especially someone you hardly know! 

Ed looked so baffled, I almost expected him to break the fourth wall and stare right at the camera, Ben Wyatt style.

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Re: the money that Juliette was asking for - in the conversation she had with Renata, they discussed her severence which I just assumed meant "sorry that we had to declare bankruptcy and can't keep you on" lump sum similar to what many employees receive when they leave a job:

Quote

Juliette: My lawyer said I need to talk to you about the severance again. 
Renata: Oh, honey, I know. We know we owe it. But now, it's in the bankruptcy trustee's hands. So first things first, we need to find you a new job. You got our letter of recommendation?
Juliette: Yeah, I did. Thank you. 
Renata: Yep, sure. Of course.
Juliette: So I guess this is goodbye.
Renata: Let's not. No, it's not goodbye here. Because we will rise up, and when we do, we will hire you back.

Later when the debtors were declaring what Renata and Gordon owed them:

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Trustee: All right, Juliette Dubois.
Renata: I didn't know-
Trustee: And you're seeking severance in the amount of $72,000?
Juliette: Yes, sir. I worked there for six years.
Trustee: Okay. And what is this "other" listed? $160,000?
Juliette: That's for other services rendered, for which I was promised to be taken care of.
Trustee: And what other services?
Juliette: Uh, stress management.
Trustee: Can you be more specific?
Juliette: I'd just like to leave it at that if I could.

Based on that, I'm guessing that Renata and Gordon's agreement with Juliette when they hired her was that whenever she left, she would receive $1000 of severance for every month that she worked for them.

7 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Is Juliette an undocumented immigrant? Were Renata and Gordon holding that over her head?

I didn't see or hear anything in any of the conversations with or about Juliette that indicated that she was undocumented or that Renata and Gordon were using that information against her. If anything, I think if she were undocumented she wouldn't want to draw attention to herself by going to that debtors' meeting and making herself known in court records/legal documents.

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15 minutes ago, sashayshante said:

Is it possible to misunderstood what she said? I can't imagine a line like that not making it into the Twitter stream for the hashtag or inspiring a think piece or two.

When did Jane say this? I don't remember hearing it at all. Was it something she was incoherently yelling at Mary Louise? If so, I could see her saying it out of spite (since it's total fiction), like, "I tried to give your son the benefit of the doubt in case he was the good man you say, but he proved again and again that he was a monster, and you're wrong about him and about everything!"

Obviously not true, but intended to be hurtful. If this wasn't part of her rant, and was something she said calmly to a friend, I got nothing. In either case, I totally agree that it 100% sounds like a man wrote that line.

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On 7/15/2019 at 4:32 PM, Uuuugghh said:

Regarding Madeline In the wedding dress, didn’t the younger daughter say it smelled like someone had a party in the house? implying she was stoned and drunk so not making the best decisions.

Her daughter said, "It sounds like someone's having a party," so she just heard the music when they got home with dinner.

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On 7/15/2019 at 7:32 PM, Uuuugghh said:

Also I think the least believable part of her character is that she drives a Buick! A Buick!! Idk but no way a girl like her in a town like that would drive American when the rest have Audi’s, Teslas, etc

I live in a “fancy” town and that Buick SUV is everywhere. People drive that, Audi’s, Tesla’s and Land Rovers. I drive a minivan 😁

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13 hours ago, Blakeston said:

It's been a long time since I took family law, but Mary Louise is a grandparent with no current custody rights. In order to get custody from Celeste - who's Josh and Max's only living parent/guardian - wouldn't she have to prove abuse and/or neglect?

It would depend on CA law. Where I practice, there is a presumption that custody should remain w/the biological parent(s). The court examines is what is in the child's best interests so if the third party had evidence that the child was being abused and/or neglected by the bio parent, then he/she could certainly present that evidence to the court, but it may not be enough to rebut the parental presumption. 

Our statute also clearly outlines when third parties can file. The third party must have  maintained a relationship w/the child, primarily assumed the duties of a parent, and lived w/the child for a certain period of time. A bio parent can consent to the third party filing, or the third party can file if she/he has been living w/the child and believes the filing is necessary to prevent harm to the child. 

I don't think enough evidence has been presented to warrant ripping Celeste's kids from her. I could see a judge ordering her into drug counseling, but awarding custody to ML?!? To me, that's doubtful. 

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If anything, I think if she were undocumented she wouldn't want to draw attention to herself by going to that debtors' meeting and making herself known in court records/legal documents.

She basically admitted to prostitution though, so....

Quote

Based on that, I'm guessing that Renata and Gordon's agreement with Juliette when they hired her was that whenever she left, she would receive $1000 of severance for every month that she worked for them. 

For a nanny? That seems unusually generous to me.

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8 hours ago, chenoa333 said:

I'm sure this has probably been brought up here (but I'm always late to the party!) Anyway, I find it interesting that Meryl Streep's character is named Mary Louise. That is Meryl Streep's real name...Mary Louise Streep. (Everyone probably already knows that!)

Apparently, that’s how the author Liane Moriarty enticed Streep to play the role.

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