GreekGeek July 4, 2019 Share July 4, 2019 I agree with the disappointment about this episode and the season in general. Either let June lead a major coup, or take the focus off her and show us more of the others. I'm not as invested in Emily, Moira, and Luke as others are, but their story lines are more compelling than watching June lurch from one bad idea to another. I guess stoning is so last year, and now the Handmaids have to pull on ropes like ancient galley slaves to hang people? After showing some glimpses of humanity last week, Aunt Lydia is back to ordering cruelties cloaked in piety. I can hardly wait to learn her backstory. I wish Commander Stabler would quit flirting and make an all out pass at Fred. I too was surprised that Gilead allows dancing among the Commanders and their Wives. So Fred and Serena love each other again? I want to see more of Commander Lawrence and wife Eleanor. That was really resourceful of her to make up that story on the spot about wanting a tour of the school. She alternates between helplessness and cleverness, and I wonder whether she exaggerates her illness to throw people off the fact that she's playing some kind of long game. I hope she and June have more "adventures" together. I really want to know whether Lawrence turns out to be friend or foe. He doesn't seem interested in baby-making, but it could be a problem for June if she doesn't get pregnant soon. Ofmatthew intrigues me also. Last week she didn't seem that happy about her latest pregnancy, but this week she's back to mealy-mouthed pieties. I hope she doesn't miscarry as a result of being attacked by June (for June's sake). She seemed to have some kind of pain during that shopping trip and implied that this pregnancy hadn't gone as well as the earlier ones. 6 Link to comment
Helena Dax July 4, 2019 Share July 4, 2019 I felt second-hand embarrassment during the tango scene. 4 7 Link to comment
Umbelina July 4, 2019 Share July 4, 2019 6 hours ago, AnswersWanted said: This may be one of the best breakdowns of this episode yet. The writer of this article really hit on so many issues with the show as a whole which this episode managed to highlight in grand detail. I especially agreed with their statement that THT struggles mightily when it tries to focus so hard and so often on one handmaid, June, instead of the entire group in rotation.They could really build up intrigue and suspense but they never do. I think because they feel that they need June to drive so much of the action all of the time, they write themselves into hole after hole plot wise. June has to both save the day while fucking up royally, it's her and her kids at the center of 2 nations, it's her life that must but spared above l else, so on and so on, but if they would just share the burden of screen time more fairly with the others collectively, I think we would end up with some really fantastic stuff. That's what they did in season 1 and it worked beautifully. There was a lot more give and take between the characters and they all got a real opportunity to shine individually. Now, it's the June show, 24/7 coverage, nonstop, and it's become torturous to watch. I loved this quote here because I think we all have thought and complained about this very same situation: The Handmaid’s Tale hides one interesting story inside a three-story dud Can someone print out a thousand copies of this and mail half to Littlefield and the other half to Miller? I always enjoy AV club reviewers. This? So true. The sad truth is, if these writers focused on Emily or Moira? People would end up hating them too. They are already getting there with Emily for me, because, as I said earlier? Emily would not be assaulting the PM and police officers after just being told she might be sent back to Gilead for being a violent criminal. Because? Doing anything other than hitting up a travel agency or the US Embassy and booking at ticket for Hawaii or Alaska is brain dead. PhD Emily is not brain dead. AV: Quote That’s especially true of Serena and Fred, because wow, it’s hard to care about those two at all. Strahovski has been a reliable bright spot on the show, but Serena has done the same “I love Gilead/I hate Gilead/I understand my crimes/I am blameless/This is good/This is bad” thing so often that it’s hard to care about this latest swing, especially as the seeds of yet another one seem to be sown here. Fred’s assertion that he’ll leave Nichole in Canada to serve as a political football will eventually come out, and then it’s likely that we’ll back at the other end of that arc. Strahovski does admirable work in marrying the Serena who worked with June, lost her finger, and gave up the baby she perceives as hers to the Serena who wanders around that house like she’s just picked up a pamphlet from the realtor, but it’s not enough—and the moment their dance becomes ever-so-slightly reminiscent of a tango is the latest in a series of head-scratchers. 2 hours ago, Caia said: It is ridiculous that Canada even came to the table, much less allowed the Swiss to negotiate for them. All Canada has to do is throw down a copy of the North Atlantic Treaty and tell Gilead if they step a toe over the 49th parallel they'll article 5 the shit out of them and British and French nukes will come raining down like hailstones. Not to mention I'm sure there's some mutual defense clause for being part of the Commonwealth. It doesn't surprise me that American writers would not realize that Canada would have someone to back them up other than the US. Sorry the quote from the article and yours joined together. The EU together wouldn't have as many weapons or weapon delivery systems as Gilead. I can see caution by Canada. What I can't see is the famously "neutral" (profiteers/cowards) Swiss in any way getting involved in this mess. Why bring attention to their country? Why risk wrath of either Gilead or the rest of the world with whatever decision they make? Complete nonsense. Also, who wants to nuke a country full of hostages/slaves/oppressed people, or nuke any country, since in Atwood's world, the whole world is suffering from various climate and resource abuse ills, including nuclear accidents? Gilead is trying for acceptance into this world, and eventually to spread it's "system" to the world, making it righteous and biblical again. They don't want to bomb it into submission and have more nuclear waste to clean up. Right now, they are practically begging for even a trade arrangement from anyone. It all falls apart as well because the show chose to ignore the reality and the book canon Spoiler that racism and misogyny go hand in hand, it's all about white men here wanting to be top dogs, and trying to save the white race from dying out. 1 hour ago, Helena Dax said: I felt second-hand embarrassment during the tango scene. I really thought they were going to get in all kinds of trouble for that dance. I was shocked they did it. I was double shocked that the people applauded after it. Characters do anything "cinematic" that these bozo writers dream up, and screw logic or that world. 1 Link to comment
Lorelei4895 July 4, 2019 Share July 4, 2019 (edited) I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere. What did everyone think of the comment by Moira to Emily about knowing how she feels about knowing when you found the one. I thought it was kinda strange. I guess she was referring to the girlfriend she was looking for in Canada, but it just felt more important than that somehow Edited July 4, 2019 by Lorelei4895 Didnt finish my thought Link to comment
Ashforth July 4, 2019 Share July 4, 2019 I find myself wondering, how will June celebrate the Fourth of July? I imagine this agenda: Sass a Commander Hang a Martha who you browbeat into helping you Smoke a cigarette with Serena Take a Tango lesson (because you never know when that skill will come in handy) Think about Holly/Nicole Sneak off to make out with Nick while fireworks light up the sky Give some great face to the camera Blessed Day! 5 1 Link to comment
Ashforth July 4, 2019 Share July 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Umbelina said: I really thought they were going to get in all kinds of trouble for that dance. I was shocked they did it. I was double shocked that the people applauded after it. I think it's going to turn out that the DC Commanders and Wives are all swingers. 4 7 Link to comment
Caia July 4, 2019 Share July 4, 2019 Quote The EU together wouldn't have as many weapons or weapon delivery systems as Gilead. ... Also, who wants to nuke a country full of hostages/slaves/oppressed people, or nuke any country, since in Atwood's world, the whole world is suffering from various climate and resource abuse ills, including nuclear accidents? Well the whole point of M.A.D. is that you only need to have them so that the other side will behave themselves, hopefully no one attacks anyone, it's the threat that's important. And you only need a couple nuclear bombs. Gilead is already suffering from the war with the remnants of the US, they don't want to open another front or risk having the east attacked. 2 Link to comment
Deputy Deputy CoS July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 (edited) On 7/4/2019 at 12:13 AM, Umbelina said: ??? Saying June has plans to steal her own kid won't be the first time Gilead ideologies has bled into our discourse. It is along the lines of referring to Serena as Holly's mother, adoptive or surrogate. Even going along and buying into the notion that she's a multifaceted character pointing to her she's suffering due of the absence of Holly is falling into the same trap. It calls on us to disregard a large part of the narrative, that Holly was never her's, should have never been around her to "mother" in the first place. Yet many have bought into it and see Serena as an interesting character because of it. Same with letting her go. It disregards why Holly is positioned to be let go In the same way that it is not debatable that June is and will always be Hannah's mother thus isn't 'stealing her, Serena wasn't and will never be Holly's anything yet ........ Edited July 5, 2019 by Deputy Deputy CoS 2 Link to comment
violet and green July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 Last week's was beautiful - back to boring, blundering, and incomprehensible. Martha talks at length to June, in plain sight of sneaky suspicious handmaid, whilst they open and close multiple fridge doors in a Busby Berkeleyesque sequence, and purchase no actual products... Martha dies... June meanwhile free-ranges about, gurns, and bangs fists on walls of daughter's school weepily - it took her how many episodes to get here? and that was her 'plan'? - and strangles snitching handmaid... All good! 3 Link to comment
doyouevengohere July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 The Marthas should totally black ball June. the guards should have at least questioned her when she was weirdly clawing at the wall at the school. The Lawrences still hold my interest. Mrs. Lawrence has mental problems and probably doesn't at all believe in Gilead OR Joe is medicating her with something in that damn tea she's always drinking to keep her sedated. She either knows far too much about him OR is mouthy about her disgust of the new world OR she is guilty of something and he is trying to keep her safe OR both. I was hoping that serena would see something at that ghoulish house that would disgust and horrify her into dropping the whole Nichole thing. I was halfway watching this episode, but did the super Commander tell Fred that are holding off on getting Nichole back? And then he lied to Serena about it? I hope the Swiss have something up their sleeve, b/c believing that they would help Canada give in to Gilead is gross. 7 Link to comment
doyouevengohere July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 8 hours ago, Ashforth said: I think it's going to turn out that the DC Commanders and Wives are all swingers. The DC commanders are probably secretly gay and the Wives bang the guards. but it's hush hush. 4 Link to comment
ferjy July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 Miller and Moss explain the changes from the book. This is an older article but it fits (the article not the video) what we’ve been talking about. Seems they had the intention of making June rebellious from the start. Unfortunately they didn’t know when to stop. I noticed they never mentioned Atwood’s responses to Miller. Might have been too colorful to print. 😀 https://time.com/4759957/handmaids-tale-book-vs-show-differences/ 5 Link to comment
alexvillage July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 From the article: "The series’ Offred is more feisty. In part, Miller explained, he thought it would be more interesting to create a large gap between Offred’s internal and external monologues: Internally, she’s indignant. Externally, she’s obedient. And, frankly, the change makes her a more likeable character, a rulebreaker akin to another one of Elisabeth Moss’ characters, Peggy on Mad Men." Hahaha first bold: These guys cannot even follow their own previous ideas about the main character. Hahaha second bold: nope, she is not even close to likable. Quite the opposite. Go to hahaha first bold. "The book gives readers a small glimpse into a terrifying world. Both Miller and Moss have expressed interest in exploring that world beyond the confines of Offred’s room in seasons to come." They did that. They went out in the world and got so lost they probably need up in another universe. 1 2 5 Link to comment
Ashforth July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 (edited) nevermind Edited July 5, 2019 by Ashforth Link to comment
IndyMischa July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 On 7/3/2019 at 9:08 PM, AnswersWanted said: All of that bullshit was ridiculous. Next I expect to see them all just throwing a swingers' party where Serena and Fred get introduced to the "Eyes Wide Shut" side of DC, led, of course, by Commander Keller in latex. Sign me up for that one. Otherwise, and pardon my lack of eloquence here, this show is fucking stupid. I'm not quite to the point of not watching - I still like Moira and Nick, and find Serena and Fred hideous but interesting - but it's fucking stupid. And any time June is on screen, I hover over the fast forward button. I figure another episode or two of this bullshit, and I'll actually click the sucker. 5 Link to comment
ferjy July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 On 7/3/2019 at 1:58 AM, tennisgurl said: This show has lost all tension because we know that no main character will suffer real consequences. Some minor characters might, but June can’t be bothered with that, she has to make time to glare defiantly into the camera again! So true about the tension. The first time June rebelled I was on the edge of my seat. I gasped, imagining what horror punishment they’d inflict on her. Now I don’t even blink. I expect them to reward her for being such an awesome badass. 6 Link to comment
Umbelina July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 With Hannah now missing, I wish they'd just have June "escape" to join the fighting resistance, because that's a part of this world I'd also like to see. I was hoping Nick's reassignment would do it, but if he's fighting on the side of Gilead, I don't know how much we'd see of the "rebels" who are still fighting the regime that took over their country. I know that active resistance deep within Gilead could also be interesting, but not the way they are writing it. 1 Link to comment
Miles July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 On 7/3/2019 at 6:58 AM, AnswersWanted said: So Canada is totally caving and a bullshit treaty is in the works for “reasons”, what fantastic news... I hate everything. I have to say, I don't buy the extradition talks with Gilead, at all. No civilised country would even consider it. All of europe (and I assume Canada) won't even extradite to the US, if somebody might get the death penalty there. Which is also why the US carefully crafted it's indictments against Julian Assange, so that the possible punishment is "only" a few hundret years in prison, but not death, which would be possible for treason. As a rule we shouldn't extradite to the US at all, because the prison system employs torture (solidary confinement, accaptence / encouragement od rape, etc.) but I guess the US is too powerfull politically and too much of an ally to completely deny extradition. I don't see that with Gilead. Their economy is a shitshow and they aren't going to militarily attack a nuclear power. So what leverage do they have? Nothing. On 7/3/2019 at 12:51 PM, ferjy said: How, in any world, let alone Gilead, can June get away with near choking another person and freely stomping away. Not just another person, a pregnant woman! That's like the highes tpossible crime in Gilead. On 7/3/2019 at 7:19 AM, Brn2bwild said: I'm also surprised that hanging punishment wasn't used for Janine 1-2 seasons earlier (so stoning is out of fashion?). Also now the handmaids do the hanging? The writers just pull shit out of their asses whenever it's convenient. Handmaids used to do the stoning when a crime wwas commited against a handmaid or by a handmaid. Everything else, the guardians did. But this episode we need June to kill the Martha, so suddenly that's the handmaids job! Yay... On 7/3/2019 at 9:18 PM, Umbelina said: Honestly, is that what this has come to for viewers? Anger because a mother didn't abandon her daughter, and more anger because she's still trying to save her? No, anger at a mother who is being a dumbass about rescuing her daughter. She should have gone to Canada and woked from there to get her daughter back. What did she hope to achieve by staying in Gilead? All things considered, this worked out way better than could be expected, because of her thick, thick plot armour. And what about her other dautgher? She is in danger of being brought back to that hellhole. Why isn't June concerned about that? In this episode she said "my commander can get us all to Canada". Meaning she is sure commander Lawrence is willing and able to get her out any moment. So why doesn't she book it to Canada right now? With her there and speaking out, there is a way lower chance of Holly being sent back to Gilead. 7 Link to comment
Umbelina July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Miles said: She should have gone to Canada and woked from there to get her daughter back. What did she hope to achieve by staying in Gilead? She has a husband in Canada who could be doing whatever possible from there. She hoped to find her (she has) and to visit her and tell her she is loved (she has) and to make allies (she has) so that an escape plan for both of them could be pulled off. 15 minutes ago, Miles said: And what about her other dautgher? She is in danger of being brought back to that hellhole. Why isn't June concerned about that? She got her other daughter out. She's VERY concerned about Holly, which is why she risked her life telling the Swiss the truth, rather than what she was ordered to tell them by Gilead goons. You don't think June is concerned about Holly being extradited? She's probably hoping the LUKE will buy a vowel and get Holly to safety, oh and that the rest of the gang in Canada will also buy vowels, visit the US Embassy, or book a flight to Alaska or Hawaii before it's too late. (again) 15 minutes ago, Miles said: So why doesn't she book it to Canada right now? With her there and speaking out, there is a way lower chance of Holly being sent back to Gilead. She had no way to suspect that Gilead would do this, they have never done it before, and others have escaped. Blaming June for that is kind of bizarre. It's also, frankly insane that Canada would even consider it. She's said it several times, she's not leaving Gilead until she can free her daughter from that hell hole. Edited July 5, 2019 by Umbelina 1 Link to comment
Miles July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, Umbelina said: She had no way to suspect that Gilead would do this, they have never done it before, and others have escaped. It seems you didn't read my post. June knows what Gilead is planning with Holly now and according to her own words she can get to Canada now. So why doesn't she? 6 minutes ago, Umbelina said: She's said it several times, she's not leaving Gilead until she can free her daughter from that hell hole. Even if she didn't get that this was a stupid plan back when she could have escaped with Emily, she should get it now. She is getting nowhere from within Gilead and that has been clear for quite a few episodes now. In addition to that, her other daughter is in danger now. She should hae hauled ass out of Gilead a while ago. 4 Link to comment
Umbelina July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 (edited) She's accomplished quite a bit actually, even with the terrible and sloppy writing. She knows Hannah's new name, her family, she's got ins with the resistance, she knows her current Commander helps (some) people escape, and his wife supports it, and his Martha is part of it. With the name, she can find Hannah again, but from within, not from Canada. She knows 4 people who might spill Hannah's new location. Fred, Serena, Nick, and C. Lawrence could all find out, and all have told her or assisted her before. In Canada, she's can't do anything more than Luke has done. She SHOULD have sent Hannah's new name and family to Luke in that tape though, but it's possible she was interrupted while taping, especially since soon after, Lawrence and his wife were listening to a tape. The writing is horrid, but to say that June hasn't accomplished anything is just not true. I doubt any other handmaids in Gilead have even been able to find their stolen children, let alone meet with them, tell them they are loved, and their family hasn't forgotten them, or given up on getting them out. Hannah may be reasonably happy now, but when she hits puberty in a very few years? She's married off to a stranger and expected to procreate, all the while, never reading, never learning to be anyone but a baby machine, and if that fails? A wife holding a handmaid's hands down while her husband rapes that handmaid. Edited July 5, 2019 by Umbelina typo 2 Link to comment
Miles July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 23 minutes ago, Umbelina said: She has a husband in Canada who could be doing whatever possible from there. Luke can't tie his own shoe laces. June has connections to the resistance. June could work that angle. And from a diplomatic angle, I know it shouldn't be the case in the era of equality, but a mother pleading for her child has a lot more impact than a father pleading for his. That's the diplomatic angle they should have explored this season. 3 minutes ago, Umbelina said: She knows Hannah's new name, her family, she's got ins with the resistance, she knows her current Commander helps (some) people escape, and his wife supports it, and his Martha is part of it. She knew all of that last season and would have known it if she escaped to Canada. 7 minutes ago, Umbelina said: With the name, she can find Hannah again, but from within, not from Canada. She knows 4 people who might spill Hannah's new location. Fred, Serena, Nick, and C. Lawrence could all find out, and all have told her or assisted her before. How would they know? How could she not get that information from the resistance? And just to make that clear: She wouldn't need to find out Hannah's new location if she hadn't fucked up so royally. It's because of her that Hannah was moved in the first place. 9 minutes ago, Umbelina said: The writing is horrid, but to say that June hasn't accomplished anything is just not true. I doubt any other handmaids in Gilead have even been able to find their stolen children, let alone meet with them, tell them they are loved, and their family hasn't forgotten them, or given up on getting them out. She hasn't accomplished anything after she had the opportunity to escape and actually made things worse. Which was to be expected. 10 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Hannah may be reasonably happy now, but when she hits puberty in a very few years? She's married off to a stranger and expected to procreate, all the while, never reading, never learning to be anyone but a baby machine, and if that fails? A wife holding a handmaid's hands down while her husband rapes that handmaid. So? That's a reason to be stupid, make things worse and risk your other daughter sharing that same fate? Again, Holly is in a lot of danger of being sent back to Gilead now. June could get to her now. If the biological mother was in Canada, claiming her biological daughter and telling her story, instead of being paraded around by Fred on TV, there would be no danger of Holly being sent back. 4 Link to comment
scrb July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 June has to be tough to survive years in Gilead, especially if they're going to extend her stay there to stretch the number of seasons of the show. I don't think the show would work at all if she escaped to Canada. Then whose POV would we be seeing in Gilead, some scenes of the Waterfords and that's about it? So she either stays, even if the reason she stays is improbable, or she leaves and the show pretty much ends. It's a common problem for TV shows, they start out strong, executing well. But they can't sustain the momentum and they have to find a way to keep the show going for economic reasons. Lost was in this category, a show which the Disney CEO thought should be a mini series at most. Game of Thrones had a lot of filler episodes before the good guys (Stark kids, grew up and got powerful enough to exact revenge on the Lannisters and other enemies). June is "feisty?" They could have said that she's got agency, that she was going to fight being a victim of Gilead, that she won't accept anything but victory on her terms. Because we certainly wouldn't want to watch seasons of a compliant, meek character like OfMatthew, handing over her children over and over again, being a narc, unwilling to even aspire to escape and get her babies back. 3 Link to comment
kieyra July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 26 minutes ago, scrb said: June is "feisty?" They could have said that she's got agency, that she was going to fight being a victim of Gilead, that she won't accept anything but victory on her terms. Because we certainly wouldn't want to watch seasons of a compliant, meek character like OfMatthew, handing over her children over and over again, being a narc, unwilling to even aspire to escape and get her babies back. I disagree with the notion that these are the only two storytelling options. June also could have continued freedom-fighting from Canada. Hell, as often as the Waterfords jaunt up to Canada for the weekend, they'd hardly even lose any June/Serena screentime. 5 Link to comment
Miles July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 (edited) 48 minutes ago, scrb said: Then whose POV would we be seeing in Gilead, some scenes of the Waterfords and that's about it? Why do we need a POV character in Gilead? One season of torture porn was more than enough to establish how horrible that world is. Two was already too much. Now, it's just annoying and has lost all of it's horror, because of how cartoonish it has gotten. If we really need to explore more of Gilead the political structure would be it and we do have the Waterfords for that. They already have scenes and storylines that have nothing to do with June. 48 minutes ago, scrb said: Game of Thrones had a lot of filler episodes before the good guys (Stark kids, grew up and got powerful enough to exact revenge on the Lannisters and other enemies). GoT had filler? What would that have been? GoT was great, until the writers decided to make up their own shit instead of following the books (Tyrion's changed relationship with Shae, the Dorne bullshit) and eventually ran out of books to adapt and so had no choice to but to put their shitty writing "talents" to the test. On 7/4/2019 at 6:27 PM, GreekGeek said: I wish Commander Stabler would quit flirting and make an all out pass at Fred. If pass means make out with him hot and heavy I'd be all for it. At least something fun to watch. On 7/4/2019 at 8:26 PM, Umbelina said: The EU together wouldn't have as many weapons or weapon delivery systems as Gilead. So? What does it matter if you nuke somebody once or ten times over? They aren't going to get more atomised. On 7/4/2019 at 2:34 PM, AnswersWanted said: But truthfully, I have resigned myself to the fact that, for some reason, most reviewers of the show think Lizzie is the most amazing actress no matter what she does. Even her fellow costars, the writers, and producers seem to believe it. Why I’m sure even headless Lincoln would agree.../s. Personally I don’t think she’s the worst, but she’s certainly never blown my socks off. And this season has definitely done her no favors, I absolutely agree. I never quite got that. Moss is... fine... at best. She always seems like she's mocking to the camera to me. She probably would be a great theater actress, where you have to project to the back of the house. But for TV and movies, it's too much. There even is a way better actress with Strahovski on this show... On 7/4/2019 at 8:28 AM, AnswersWanted said: You forgot option three: June gets 5 more people killed, dresses up as a wife and then a commander in drag, steals and subsequently wrecks three vehicles, tortures a guard to find out where they've taken Hannah, sends her spirit wolf to run and fetch Hannah for her while June steals a boat because why not, then she'll have the wolf bring Hannah to her and they'll escape Gilead forever... I personally think she will transform into Voltron. Edited July 5, 2019 by Miles 4 Link to comment
scrb July 5, 2019 Share July 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, Miles said: Why do we need a POV character in Gilead? One season of torture porn was more than enough to establish how horrible that world is. Two was already too much. Now, it's just annoying and has lost all of it's horror, because of how cartoonish it has gotten. If we really need to explore more of Gilead the political structure would be it and we do have the Waterfords for that. They already have scenes and storylines that have nothing to do with June. GoT had filler? What would that have been? GoT was great, until the writers decided to make up their own shit instead of following the books (Tyrion's changed relationship with Shae, the Dorne bullshit) and eventually ran out of books to adapt and so had no choice to but to put their shitty writing "talents" to the test. I think the series gets a lot of mileage from the Gilead scenes, especially the visual design -- choreography, the way Washington was depicted in the last couple of episodes, etc. Yes we don't need to see more ways in which Gilead oppress women. But if there are any cracks, like characters like Lawrence who is willing to help Handmaids escape, because he may not be fully on board with the program, or say corruption in Washington, like the swinging they hinted at, then you would want the POV of an enemy of Gilead inside Gilead. Or at least some signs of dissidents, able to evade execution for years. Compare that with what, having June hold signs and trying to harangue Canadian officials for not doing enough or negotiating with Gilead? Not exactly engrossing scenarios. As for GoT, that season of Arya in Bravos training to be whatever she was suppose to become was interminable. Seemed to go on forever. Also the whole reek thing too with Theon. OK, I'm not necessarily saying episodes with too many of these scenes made the whole episode filler or without any entertainment value. But a lot of those scenes certainly weren't entertaining to watch. 2 Link to comment
tennisgurl July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 (edited) One of the only ways that all of this could be kinda worth it is if the Lawrence’s end up fucking off to Canada, telling the whole story of how Gilead was created and all the shit they get up to, turning the whole world totally against them and giving them tons of inside info to defeat them, so that Mrs. Lawrence can get some help, and because Commander Lawrence just thought it would be funny. Gilead is fucked, and I laugh. They would probably ask June if she wanted to come, but she would say no, she has to personally shoot the head of Gilead in the face while saying a cool one liner. Edited July 6, 2019 by tennisgurl 5 3 Link to comment
Linderhill July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 On 7/4/2019 at 5:26 PM, Ashforth said: I think it's going to turn out that the DC Commanders and Wives are all swingers. somehow I think that would make more sense than some of the plot points going on here. 5 Link to comment
AnswersWanted July 6, 2019 Author Share July 6, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, alexvillage said: From the article: "The series’ Offred is more feisty. In part, Miller explained, he thought it would be more interesting to create a large gap between Offred’s internal and external monologues: Internally, she’s indignant. Externally, she’s obedient. And, frankly, the change makes her a more likeable character, a rulebreaker akin to another one of Elisabeth Moss’ characters, Peggy on Mad Men." Hahaha first bold: These guys cannot even follow their own previous ideas about the main character. Hahaha second bold: nope, she is not even close to likable. Quite the opposite. Go to hahaha first bold. "The book gives readers a small glimpse into a terrifying world. Both Miller and Moss have expressed interest in exploring that world beyond the confines of Offred’s room in seasons to come." They did that. They went out in the world and got so lost they probably need up in another universe. Man oh man did that article not age well, heh. I’d bet if you showed Miller that he’d still manage to claim his goals are still the same, after all he’s got 10 seasons planned for... They have painted themselves into such a corner regarding June. She cannot be the all conquering heroine if she has to stay trapped in Gilead and consistently fail at escape and resisting at nearly every turn. 9 hours ago, IndyMischa said: Sign me up for that one. Otherwise, and pardon my lack of eloquence here, this show is fucking stupid. I'm not quite to the point of not watching - I still like Moira and Nick, and find Serena and Fred hideous but interesting - but it's fucking stupid. And any time June is on screen, I hover over the fast forward button. I figure another episode or two of this bullshit, and I'll actually click the sucker. I know, right? I am not sure if I’ll be able to make it to the end of this season, the next couple of episodes will be a big decider for me as well. 5 hours ago, Miles said: I have to say, I don't buy the extradition talks with Gilead, at all. No civilised country would even consider it. All of europe (and I assume Canada) won't even extradite to the US, if somebody might get the death penalty there. Which is also why the US carefully crafted it's indictments against Julian Assange, so that the possible punishment is "only" a few hundret years in prison, but not death, which would be possible for treason. As a rule we shouldn't extradite to the US at all, because the prison system employs torture (solidary confinement, accaptence / encouragement od rape, etc.) but I guess the US is too powerfull politically and too much of an ally to completely deny extradition. I don't see that with Gilead. Their economy is a shitshow and they aren't going to militarily attack a nuclear power. So what leverage do they have? Nothing. I can hardly believe I once looked forward to seeing more scenes from Canada, detailing more info about their operation and helping the refugees. This show is laughable with their lazy attempts at creating tension and strife now, suddenly, by having Canada turn traitor towards Gilead refugees, plus they’re trying to convince us Gilead suddenly has all this clout they never did, or could have had, just last season. Gilead should be ostracized by pretty much the entire world, if we are to believe this world reflects much of current day, especially military wise. Gilead’s got shit to say at the international table, they haven’t even won their own Civil War yet, how the fuck do they even have time for this bullshit of a negotiation? 5 hours ago, Miles said: Not just another person, a pregnant woman! That's like the highes tpossible crime in Gilead. No joke, June would have been guaranteed no less than a lost limb or eye without question. This show is the one who told us even the thought of harming a baby would bring death. But still they have Super June choking out a fellow pregnant handmaid and hardly anyone blinks. 4 hours ago, Miles said: Luke can't tie his own shoe laces. June has connections to the resistance. June could work that angle. And from a diplomatic angle, I know it shouldn't be the case in the era of equality, but a mother pleading for her child has a lot more impact than a father pleading for his. That's the diplomatic angle they should have explored this season. She knew all of that last season and would have known it if she escaped to Canada. How would they know? How could she not get that information from the resistance? And just to make that clear: She wouldn't need to find out Hannah's new location if she hadn't fucked up so royally. It's because of her that Hannah was moved in the first place. She hasn't accomplished anything after she had the opportunity to escape and actually made things worse. Which was to be expected. So? That's a reason to be stupid, make things worse and risk your other daughter sharing that same fate? Again, Holly is in a lot of danger of being sent back to Gilead now. June could get to her now. If the biological mother was in Canada, claiming her biological daughter and telling her story, instead of being paraded around by Fred on TV, there would be no danger of Holly being sent back. The show gambled with the decision to have June nearly escape Gilead in season 2 and that gamble did not pay off. At. All. They now are stuck having June rinse and repeat the stupiest shit so she stays where she is now. Even though we have seen her involved with the resistance, she’s no longer the wide eyed terrified woman who paced in her room locked away in solitary confinement and had a breakdown curled up in her closet. She has developed enough to reasonably be doing smart, effective things to work towards freedom. Yet, because blah blah season 3 reasons, she gets her daughter’s kind, helpful Martha killed because she got sloppy and selfish, yet again, and she’s reset all of her hard earned progress towards finding a way to access and potentially rescue Hannah. Hell, she fucking nuked it, she’s lost a trusted contact, plus Hannah’s physical location. And honestly she should have burned a lot of bridges at this point within the resistance. If she cannot control her emotions enough to focus on the ultimate goal of getting free, and not just wasting time, energy, and people’s lives just so she can feel a wall for a few seconds that her daughter lies behind, she’s not worth trying to help. These people all have loved ones, children, spouses, some living and dead, they are trying to do everything they can to cripple Gilead internally, risking everything. June would have them do so for her and die for it, and she will still merely be left standing, scowling, in the same disadvantaged position as she started in. She takes 1 step forward and then 12 backwards, and why? For what? Because if she actually showed growth and progress then we would expect her to have fucking gotten out already, or died trying. But of course, many have already reached that point anyway. We eye-roll and snort at her theatrics which never lead anywhere. She can’t die or escape, so what’s the purpose? They want the audience to hold on for 5 or 6 more seasons of this kind of indecisive bullshit? It’s total idiocy. They are not telling a story, they’re regurgitating recycled ideas over and over. They have turned their main character, the hero, into a dumb moron who can’t seem to learn her lessons from one day to the next, solely because they already squandered their ace in the hole: her escape arch. They never should have pulled that pin, not just once but fucking twice in season 2. Especially since all we were going to get was this mess of a season driven solely by June’s implausible decision to stay when she had Holly in arms and knew only certain death awaited her if she didn’t leave right then and there. June has to stay stupid as shit to remain in a Gilead as she is, but not just that, she also has to remain impervious to any serious punishment or death as well while she stupidly exists, she doesn’t even seem like a person at this point, but a physical manifestation of a plot point. Edited July 6, 2019 by AnswersWanted 8 Link to comment
ferjy July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 42 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said: I am not sure if I’ll be able to make it to the end of this season, the next couple of episodes will be a big decider for me as well. Oh I'll stay tuned in. How else can we keep up the snark here? I hope everyone else keeps watching (it's your duty, ladies and gents!) because the comments here are brilliant after watching each episode. 6 Link to comment
kieyra July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 6 minutes ago, ferjy said: Oh I'll stay tuned in. How else can we keep up the snark here? I hope everyone else keeps watching (it's your duty, ladies and gents!) because the comments here are brilliant after watching each episode. I do appreciate other people taking the hit, because I can’t watch it. (I haven’t had this much fun not watching a show since the “bitterness fiesta” thread for Lost back on TWOP.) 3 Link to comment
ferjy July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 58 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said: they’re trying to convince us Gilead suddenly has all this clout they never did, or could have had, just last season. I don't know how many times this scene popped into my head as I watched the episodes. 3 Link to comment
ferjy July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, scrb said: the whole reek thing too with Theon. That was painful (pardon the pun). It dragged on far too long. A pity they couldn't have had a better storyline for Ramsay because Iwan Rheon was fantastic in the role. So no, I wouldn't want torture scenes. 3 hours ago, scrb said: Yes we don't need to see more ways in which Gilead oppress women. But if there are any cracks, like characters like Lawrence who is willing to help Handmaids escape, because he may not be fully on board with the program, or say corruption in Washington, like the swinging they hinted at, then you would want the POV of an enemy of Gilead inside Gilead. Or at least some signs of dissidents, able to evade execution for years. We definitely need to see more of the others, some new plot lines. They keep saying they want to show it from June's POV as in the book, but they've changed her character so much they might as well alter the rest of the story and give us more absorbing material to keep our interest. Edited July 6, 2019 by ferjy 2 Link to comment
ferjy July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 1 hour ago, AnswersWanted said: No joke, June would have been guaranteed no less than a lost limb or eye without question. This show is the one who told us even the thought of harming a baby would bring death. But still they have Super June choking out a fellow pregnant handmaid and hardly anyone blinks. Those guards patrolling at the top killed me during that scene. They might as well have been looking to the sky and whistling. More and more I keep thinking how this show would make a great spoof. 5 Link to comment
Miles July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 4 hours ago, scrb said: Yes we don't need to see more ways in which Gilead oppress women. But if there are any cracks, like characters like Lawrence who is willing to help Handmaids escape, because he may not be fully on board with the program, or say corruption in Washington, like the swinging they hinted at, then you would want the POV of an enemy of Gilead inside Gilead. Why would you want the POV of an enemy of Gilead for that? I think seeing that play out through Serena's eyes is much more interesting. That is the world she created. See how she likes it in reality. If you want to explore the resistance in Gilead, you could do that through June in Canada. Let her keep up with connections. Maybe introduce a new character. Follow that character through the resistance. June herself has been burned as a spy a long time ago. She is probably the most known Handmaid in all of Gilead. It strains credibility that she is even still alive, let alone gets away with all thhis shit. 4 hours ago, scrb said: Compare that with what, having June hold signs and trying to harangue Canadian officials for not doing enough or negotiating with Gilead? Not exactly engrossing scenarios. Just because these writers don't do shit with Canada doesn't mean they couldn't. There would be a lot more to do there for June than she can do in Gilead. 4 hours ago, scrb said: As for GoT, that season of Arya in Bravos training to be whatever she was suppose to become was interminable. Seemed to go on forever. Also the whole reek thing too with Theon. OK, I'm not necessarily saying episodes with too many of these scenes made the whole episode filler or without any entertainment value. But a lot of those scenes certainly weren't entertaining to watch. Character development is not filler. Arya training in Bravos was too drawn out, but that just comes down to D&D running out of books and being shitty writers, not them biding time for people to grow up. Reek might not have been pleasent to watch, but it was about the needed amount. 2 Link to comment
jenn31 July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 5 hours ago, Miles said: I. never quite got that. Moss is... fine... at best. She always seems like she's mocking to the camera to me. She probably would be a great theater actress, where you have to project to the back of the house That glare of hers would hit the rafters, no problem. 2 Link to comment
jenn31 July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Miles said: Reek might not have been pleasent to watch, but it was about the needed amount. Though I agree with the rest, I can’t agree with you about Reek. Could have easily been cut in half and had a better effect. As it was, people were zipping by it, including me. Like THT, it was more shock value at that point. Edited July 6, 2019 by jenn31 3 Link to comment
violet and green July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 4 hours ago, AnswersWanted said: They have turned their main character, the hero, into a dumb moron who can’t seem to learn her lessons from one day to the next, solely because they already squandered their ace in the hole: her escape arch. They never should have pulled that pin, not just once but fucking twice in season 2. Especially since all we were going to get was this mess of a season driven solely by June’s implausible decision to stay when she had Holly in arms and knew only certain death awaited her if she didn’t leave right then and there. June has to stay stupid as shit to remain in a Gilead as she is, but not just that, she also has to remain impervious to any serious punishment or death as well while she stupidly exists, she doesn’t even seem like a person at this point, but a physical manifestation of a plot point. Amen! And I'll tell you what really annoys me on top of all of this - she keeps referring to Holly as "Nicole" in her many, many (far too many!) voiceovers. As if we, the viewers, are too dim to know who she means if she said instead, as she would in an internal monologue, "Holly". Argh! 1 Link to comment
AllyB July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 8 hours ago, AnswersWanted said: They never should have pulled that pin, not just once but fucking twice in season 2. Three times if you count the magic wolf episode, which I do. Three different times in 13 episodes, the audience was shown the possibility of June escaping and failing. Three times now we've had to watch her readjust to Gilead after a brief taste of freedom. It's so, so, so very stupid. I would have been alright with watching 3 seasons of June stuck in Gilead, if it wasn't for the constant dangle of escape and reset. And if the writers feel unable to write June permanently in Gilead, there are plenty and plenty of options besides escape to Canada. Lets see her escape in the opposite direction and get stuck into the the war against Gilead. 6 Link to comment
alexvillage July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 13 hours ago, Miles said: Even if she didn't get that this was a stupid plan back when she could have escaped with Emily, she should get it now. She is getting nowhere from within Gilead and that has been clear for quite a few episodes now. In addition to that, her other daughter is in danger now. She should hae hauled ass out of Gilead a while ago. Moreover, she is June and she could go to Canada, tell the Canadians that she is the legitimate mother, then go back to Gilead to continue her heroics there. She said they don't punish escapees because Gilead does't acknowledge that there are escapees. If Commander Lawerence would get her out, he would accept her back, because plot armor. 1 Link to comment
PsychoDrone July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 (edited) With these shows based on books, it becomes obvious pretty quickly when the writers are making it up as they go along. The Stephen King-based miniseries Under the Dumb...I mean Dome, had this problem in abundance. I gave up on that show after the second season. Like this show, the first season was good and drew in viewers. Studio execs saw the numbers and naturally want to keep the show going. Unfortunately, they don't have the talent of the original writer to flesh out the story. Also, the original story is finite and dragging it out is so obvious to the viewers. Game of Thrones experienced this too, but that show had a wealth of stories to pull from. But, it too ran out of stories from the books, and then the lower quality became obvious. The horrible final season demonstrates that to a tee. By the rules of Gilead, the whole Waterford house should have been on the wall LONG ago. We saw it happen with another commander's household. Keeping the Waterfords and June around is the writers insulting the viewers' intelligence and keeping a show going that doesn't stand up to the slightest scrutiny. June has plot armor that a nuke can't penetrate. The Waterfords is similar, but they will get their comeuppance as a "shock" in an attempt to keep viewers watching. At this point, I'm watching to get to the end of this season. Regardless of how this season ends, I'm done. Edited July 6, 2019 by PsychoDrone 9 Link to comment
Catfi9ht July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 1 hour ago, PsychoDrone said: With these shows based on books, it becomes obvious pretty quickly when the writers are making it up as they go along. The Stephen King-based miniseries Under the Dumb...I mean Dome, had this problem in abundance. I gave up on that show after the second season. Like this show, the first season was good and drew in viewers. Studio execs saw the numbers and naturally want to keep the show going. Unfortunately, they don't have the talent of the original writer to flesh out the story. Also, the original story is finite and dragging it out is so obvious to the viewers. Game of Thrones experienced this too, but that show had a wealth of stories to pull from. But, it too ran out of stories from the books, and then the lower quality became obvious. The horrible final season demonstrates that to a tee. By the rules of Gilead, the whole Waterford house should have been on the wall LONG ago. We saw it happen with another commander's household. Keeping the Waterfords and June around is the writers insulting the viewers' intelligence and keeping a show going that doesn't stand up to the slightest scrutiny. June has plot armor that a nuke can't penetrate. The Waterfords is similar, but they will get their comeuppance as a "shock" in an attempt to keep viewers watching. At this point, I'm watching to get to the end of this season. Regardless of how this season ends, I'm done. I agree on all points. Adapting a book for television is essentially editing a story so it translates better to a visual medium with condensed content. This is a completely different skill set than creating new content. I think this is exactly why the show's quality has plummeted. It's fairly apparent the showrunners are writing each episode individually rather than using an overarching story as a skeleton and filling in the details using the contents in individual episodes. Moment-to-moment, the character dialogue and situations in individual episodes are okay, but when you think about the overall world the characters live in, there isn't any consistency. My main problem with the show is there is no character growth. The characters are getting into the same situations, the same conflicts, etc. I could add examples, but I think folks have done a good job pointing them out already so I won't rehash them. I was going to post about how I was looking forward to next episode since it seems to be Lydia-centric. However, I thought better of it because I no longer have faith in the writing. I think it will do more to butcher the character than to add dimension. What a shame. The timing of this show's message with political events could have been used to great effect, but instead, the showrunner's hubris got in the way. 3 Link to comment
Ashforth July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 (edited) 17 hours ago, Miles said: Why do we need a POV character in Gilead? Because the show is about June, a Handmaid, living in Gilead. The book was about June in Gilead and I am sure that the show is going to stay focused on June in Gilead. They could certainly do a better job of it, but imo June won't be living in Canada in the foreseeable future. 2 hours ago, Catfi9ht said: Adapting a book for television is essentially editing a story so it translates better to a visual medium with condensed content. This is a completely different skill set than creating new content. I think this is exactly why the show's quality has plummeted. It's fairly apparent the showrunners are writing each episode individually rather than using an overarching story as a skeleton and filling in the details using the contents in individual episodes. Moment-to-moment, the character dialogue and situations in individual episodes are okay, but when you think about the overall world the characters live in, there isn't any consistency. My main problem with the show is there is no character growth. The characters are getting into the same situations, the same conflicts, etc. I could add examples, but I think folks have done a good job pointing them out already so I won't rehash them. I was going to post about how I was looking forward to next episode since it seems to be Lydia-centric. However, I thought better of it because I no longer have faith in the writing. I think it will do more to butcher the character than to add dimension. What a shame. The timing of this show's message with political events could have been used to great effect, but instead, the showrunner's hubris got in the way. Well said! The obvious absence of a long story arc is the core of the problem. I think the character with the best development is Serena Joy, but that has been beset by the inconsistency that plagues the entire show. I don't think that June is supposed to be a mental giant, but at this point she's been a prisoner long enough and seen enough to know that she needs to be playing the long game. She does have some potential resources, as @Umbelina mentioned above, but if she keeps putting them in danger (Mrs. Laurence) or getting them executed (the MacKenzies' Martha) for a stupid one-off like trying to see Hannah at school - and what the hell did she think that was going to accomplish anyway? - no one will be willing to help her. Edited July 6, 2019 by Ashforth 2 Link to comment
Umbelina July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, AllyB said: Three times if you count the magic wolf episode, which I do. Three different times in 13 episodes, the audience was shown the possibility of June escaping and failing. Three times now we've had to watch her readjust to Gilead after a brief taste of freedom. It's so, so, so very stupid. I would have been alright with watching 3 seasons of June stuck in Gilead, if it wasn't for the constant dangle of escape and reset. And if the writers feel unable to write June permanently in Gilead, there are plenty and plenty of options besides escape to Canada. Lets see her escape in the opposite direction and get stuck into the the war against Gilead. That's what I said earlier. It would be interesting to see the rebels, US citizens who refused to submit to Gilead's cruel and idiotic government, close up and personal. However, with the addition of Lawrence and his wife, and now Winslow and his wife and assorted comrades and many children in DC I don't see that happening. They sent too many of the oppressed class to Canada, and I doubt they brought all those people on just so June could bounce and join a new cast of freedom fighters. (Or those loyal to the USA, whatever you want to call them.) Nick may fill that role, and honestly, it really could work, especially in his role as spy, but these writers are so slow about actually doing anything interesting or fresh. It is SO FRUSTRATING. Honestly, other than some pretty fantastic cinematography and a wonderful cast, those guys have no fucking clue how to write this show. 8 hours ago, alexvillage said: Moreover, she is June and she could go to Canada, tell the Canadians that she is the legitimate mother, then go back to Gilead to continue her heroics there. She said they don't punish escapees because Gilead does't acknowledge that there are escapees. If Commander Lawerence would get her out, he would accept her back, because plot armor. What June SAID is they don't punish escapees because they don't acknowledge them, they kill them for some other trumped up charges though. Like that poor guy in the first season that the handmaids tore apart. He was a rebel, he didn't really rape a pregnant housemaid. Gilead leaders lie. Too much of the cast is already in Canada, doing basically NOTHING. Since they aren't (the writers) letting them use their time communicating with the rest of the world and what remains of their country in Hawaii and Alaska? I don't care about Canada. I get it, readjustment is hard. Just as I get it with June and those stuck in Gilead. Living there is hard. Move on to the "rest of the story" they obviously have no idea how to tell. 7 hours ago, PsychoDrone said: With these shows based on books, it becomes obvious pretty quickly when the writers are making it up as they go along. The Stephen King-based miniseries Under the Dumb...I mean Dome, had this problem in abundance. I gave up on that show after the second season. Like this show, the first season was good and drew in viewers. Studio execs saw the numbers and naturally want to keep the show going. Unfortunately, they don't have the talent of the original writer to flesh out the story. Also, the original story is finite and dragging it out is so obvious to the viewers. Game of Thrones experienced this too, but that show had a wealth of stories to pull from. But, it too ran out of stories from the books, and then the lower quality became obvious. The horrible final season demonstrates that to a tee. By the rules of Gilead, the whole Waterford house should have been on the wall LONG ago. We saw it happen with another commander's household. Keeping the Waterfords and June around is the writers insulting the viewers' intelligence and keeping a show going that doesn't stand up to the slightest scrutiny. June has plot armor that a nuke can't penetrate. The Waterfords is similar, but they will get their comeuppance as a "shock" in an attempt to keep viewers watching. At this point, I'm watching to get to the end of this season. Regardless of how this season ends, I'm done. First paragraph. You'd think they at least ASKED Atwood "what's the rest of the story" before they committed to "10 seasons!" But no, they just wanted to drag this sucker out and milk every single penny and bit of acclaim they could from it. It shows. Yay for the critics, most of whom are, now in no uncertain terms, telling them that. (GoT though? Had a ton of story left out, the writers just wanted out.) Second paragraph. Absolutely! As I've said a few times, and am trying not to say over and over again, because that gets boring? The whole cast has plot armor! It's beyond ridiculous now. The Waterfords, and especially Fred, would be long dead by now. He is Spoiler "partitioned" in the book after all, and keeping him around anymore is bizarre. Emily should be dead a few times over, Janine should be dead a few times over, Moira had the most believable death out, being sent to Jezebels, but she attacked an aunt, she should be dead, and then she (off screen of course!) kills a Commander and steals his car and just waltzes out of Jezebels *hello, they have cameras and are extremely well guarded, remember?* and then with apparently no other problems makes it to Canada. What? Ditto shot Luke, the only survivor of the ambulance accident conveniently runs into a rebel doctor who patches him up, and though all of the others are killed? Escapes with silent Erin. Plot armor abounds, and while "red shirts" are killed instantly? Permanent cast members always survive. It's stupid. The constant PERIL! then next episode hand waving it all away is such terrible writing I wouldn't expect it from a high school playwright. 5 hours ago, Catfi9ht said: I agree on all points. Adapting a book for television is essentially editing a story so it translates better to a visual medium with condensed content. This is a completely different skill set than creating new content. I think this is exactly why the show's quality has plummeted. It's fairly apparent the showrunners are writing each episode individually rather than using an overarching story as a skeleton and filling in the details using the contents in individual episodes. Moment-to-moment, the character dialogue and situations in individual episodes are okay, but when you think about the overall world the characters live in, there isn't any consistency. My main problem with the show is there is no character growth. The characters are getting into the same situations, the same conflicts, etc. I could add examples, but I think folks have done a good job pointing them out already so I won't rehash them. I was going to post about how I was looking forward to next episode since it seems to be Lydia-centric. However, I thought better of it because I no longer have faith in the writing. I think it will do more to butcher the character than to add dimension. What a shame. The timing of this show's message with political events could have been used to great effect, but instead, the showrunner's hubris got in the way. Yes! In the "things we hate about this show" thread, I posted about this lack of continuity between episodes, it's especially wrong because it's become like an old TV show I've seen clips of, I think it was a cartoon first. The Perils of Pauline. Each episode is danger Will Robinson! The next ignores all of that or does some bullshit hand wave, and they start afresh with a new peril. They could make this into a fairly decent comedy sketch show honestly, with this writing. I agree, it's what I mean when I say that they have their characters "running in place." No one gets anywhere, not really, they just keep doing the same ridiculous or boring shit over and over again, and end up in the same place. Once in a while we get a surprise, such as Emily and then June plot armor savior C. Lawrence, but then it just fizzles into "tell you later." Will this DC crowd liven things up? They certainly COULD. Will Nick interacting/fighting the rebels/patriots make this show more interesting? It certainly COULD. Will it? Sigh, not a great track record with these writers/showrunners, and obviously, most of us have completely lost faith in them. 2 hours ago, Ashforth said: Because the show is about June, a Handmaid, living in Gilead. The book was about June in Gilead and I am sure that the show is going to stay focused on June in Gilead. They could certainly do a better job of it, but imo June won't be living in Canada in the foreseeable future. Well said! The obvious absence of a long story arc is the core of the problem. I think the character with the best development is Serena Joy, but that has been beset by the inconsistency that plagues the entire show. I don't think that June is supposed to be a mental giant, but at this point she's been a prisoner long enough and seen enough to know that she needs to be playing the long game. She does have some potential resources, as @Umbelina mentioned above, but if she keeps putting them in danger (Mrs. Laurence) or getting them executed (the MacKenzies' Martha) for a stupid one-off like trying to see Hannah at school - and what the hell did she think that was going to accomplish anyway? - no one will be willing to help her. I don't think many of the characters are believable anymore. The only ones who have held on to shreds of believably are those we don't see very much of. Even they? Strain my credibility all the damn time. It is not the acting, it's the writing, the acting is the only thing saving this show at times, but without words on the page that make sense? It doesn't work. Luke does nothing but drink and mope and yell at his protectors, the Canadians. Emily's story has pathos and was at least "fresh" so I was very interested in it (and I adore the actress) so I was in until this episode. It's completely unbelievable that she, after leaving a meeting about her "violent criminal past" possibly getting her sent back to Gilead? Instead of running to the US embassy or getting on the computer and booking a flight the hell out of Canada? Goes out and behaves like a violent criminal, attacking the PM and cops. Seriously? Now they are making Emily as stupid as Luke and June and everyone else in this core cast? June trying and fucking up is believable to me to a point. That point has long sense been crossed, especially in this completely nonsensical let's have an intense conversation opening every door in the grocery store with a Martha when you know you have a snitch true believer handmaid partner watching you, and then lets go to Hannah's school, not just to scope it out and get the lay of the land so you can plan a later rescue of your daughter, but so you can act insane by clutching a wall and having an emotional "moment." Oh please. June can and should be a novice, learning rebel, but there is absolutely no way in hell she would do either of those things. That's not bravery or resolve (which I think these idiot writers were going for) it's a junior high girl having her first period emotional bullshit. At this point, they have made each and every character so unbelievable, and their main protagonist so stupid, and all peril to core cast such a joke, that it's pretty hard to be invested anymore. What a waste, and it all is the fault of these showrunners and lack of continuity, and "emmy reel" episodes for everyone in the core cast, and the obvious dragging of feet in forward progress of the story, that I'm honestly disgusted with the showrunners. Extreme close ups worked well in the first season, partly because it was interesting seeing "Hollywood" faces bare of make up, up close and personal, warts and all. Now though? It's done in nearly every single episode multiple times with the whole cast. Stop being one trick ponies and care more about story than "moments" you assholes. It makes me very sad really though, because I loved that book, and I've wanted to know "the rest of the story" for so very long. These guys? Are failing. ETA The thing is, and the thing that should happen in any believable world? Emily (with or without her wife and child) and Luke, Moira, and possibly Erin? Should be and would be in a "real world" situation doing specific things right now. 1. Buying a large car or van. I'm certain Emily's wife could do that for them if needed, and she would have some money by now, working in Canada all this time, and probably friends and family for loans if not. 2. Piling everyone in and fucking driving to Alaska (a little vacation if asked.) Supplies and money and go. 3. Right before they all bounce, tell someone they trust to spread the word that Canada is negotiating with Gilead about returning Gilead escapees, so get out now, don't make the same mistakes we all made when the USA was taken over. These are intelligent adult people who know what can happen, the unbelievable already happened to them. Unless every single one of them is brain dead? They would have already swung into action here and be leaving. Not "sometimes soon" but NOW. It's not paranoia when someone really is after you. WTF Emily? She is not the only one who "committed crimes" to escape, probably most of the refugees in Canada did. Warn them, and get out. Edited July 6, 2019 by Umbelina typo, than an ETA 6 Link to comment
Ashforth July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: Emily's story has pathos and was at least "fresh" so I was very interested in it (and I adore the actress) so I was in until this episode. It's completely unbelievable that she, after leaving a meeting about her "violent criminal past" possibly getting her sent back to Gilead? And let's talk about that meeting. (paraphrased) Interrogator: "Did you stab a woman and push her down the stairs?" Emily, in trembling voice, "Yes." How about, "Yes. She is responsible for 'training' women like me who are held captive and forced to be 'Handmaids' who are raped as breeding stock for the ruling class in Gilead. She enforces the 'rules' and directs or personally carries out the torture and mutilation of enslaved women. She cuts out women's tongues, removes their eyes, cuts off their hands. She tortured ME and had me mutilated by removing my clitoris. So when I saw my chance to escape, yes, I did what I felt I had to do." Edited July 6, 2019 by Ashforth 17 Link to comment
Umbelina July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Ashforth said: And let's talk about that meeting. Interrogator: "Did you stab a woman and push her down the stairs?" Emily, in trembling voice, "Yes." How about, "Yes. She is responsible for 'training' women like me who are held captive and forced to be 'Handmaids' who are raped as breeding stock for the ruling class in Gilead. She enforces the 'rules' and directs or personally carries out the torture and mutilation of enslaved women. She cuts out women's tongues, removes their eyes, cuts off their hands. She tortured ME and had me mutilated by removing my clitoris. So when I saw my chance to escape, yes, I did what I felt I had to do." I agree. That part though? I could ALMOST buy, because Emily is obviously having PSTD, and this is the first time she's been confronted with someone hostile, or in a position of authority since she'd escaped years of torture and horrors. She could barely speak to her wife or son, and hasn't been allowed to speak freely for years... However, if that's what the writers were going for? What a waste, because the actress was certainly capable of subtext, and in fact, I think played it a bit, but the writing didn't support her. Then again, I'm getting a bit tired of handwaving everything away, and I'm at my limit with her attacking authorities right after that harrowing meeting, instead of running immediately. Any sane person would run, ANYONE who had been through it all before, and she's a damn PhD. Come on now! "Yeah, let's go to a protest instead of planning our escape before the noose tightens." Sure writers. Edited July 6, 2019 by Umbelina 2 Link to comment
kieyra July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 24 minutes ago, Ashforth said: And let's talk about that meeting. (paraphrased) Interrogator: "Did you stab a woman and push her down the stairs?" Emily, in trembling voice, "Yes." How about, "Yes. She is responsible for 'training' women like me who are held captive and forced to be 'Handmaids' who are raped as breeding stock for the ruling class in Gilead. She enforces the 'rules' and directs or personally carries out the torture and mutilation of enslaved women. She cuts out women's tongues, removes their eyes, cuts off their hands. She tortured ME and had me mutilated by removing my clitoris. So when I saw my chance to escape, yes, I did what I felt I had to do." But don’t forget, Emily has to atone. The show’s words (a recent episode synopsis), not mine. 5 Link to comment
Umbelina July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 11 minutes ago, kieyra said: But don’t forget, Emily has to atone. The show’s words (a recent episode synopsis), not mine. Talk about losing the plot. sigh 1 Link to comment
AnswersWanted July 6, 2019 Author Share July 6, 2019 (edited) Quote Oh I'll stay tuned in. How else can we keep up the snark here? I hope everyone else keeps watching (it's your duty, ladies and gents!) because the comments here are brilliant after watching each episode. Heh, well I can make no promises, but I think I can manage to hang in until the season finale. I am curious about how they’re going to try and tie up so many loose ends, which I don’t see them doing well/at all. I think they’re going to try to, yet again, end on a so-called cliff hanger, to try and keep people “invested “ for next season. Pfft, good fucking luck, show. 18 hours ago, ferjy said: I don't know how many times this scene popped into my head as I watched the episodes. Hah, love it. 17 hours ago, ferjy said: Those guards patrolling at the top killed me during that scene. They might as well have been looking to the sky and whistling. More and more I keep thinking how this show would make a great spoof. Guard 1: Hey, look over there. Guard 2: Huh? (Both turn to see June screeching like a banshee, strangling OfMathhew as a flurry of red dresses and bonnets surround them to try and pull them apart) Guard 2: Oh - yeah. Guard 1: Shouldn’t we...do something? Guard 2: Naw, it’s all good. They’ve got it handled. Guard 1: But...But... Guard 2: It’s June. Guard 1: Ohhhhhhh...welp - June: YOU BITCHHHHHH!!!!!!!! Guard 2: See, she’s just making a new friend. 15 hours ago, violet and green said: Amen! And I'll tell you what really annoys me on top of all of this - she keeps referring to Holly as "wel-Nicole" in her many, many (far too many!) voiceovers. As if we, the viewers, are too dim to know who she means if she said instead, as she would in an internal monologue, "Holly". Argh! I wouldn’t be surprised if they continued to do that to remind us of Serena’s link to the baby, because they’ve been determined to keep her attached to Holly as they seem to believe it allows them to soften her, even make her sympathetic. It’s just more evidence these writers don’t get it. They’d rather keep these characters flip flopping like their lives depend on it because the writing is so all over the place. 11 hours ago, AllyB said: Three times if you count the magic wolf episode, which I do. Three different times in 13 episodes, the audience was shown the possibility of June escaping and failing. Three times now we've had to watch her readjust to Gilead after a brief taste of freedom. It's so, so, so very stupid. I would have been alright with watching 3 seasons of June stuck in Gilead, if it wasn't for the constant dangle of escape and reset. And if the writers feel unable to write June permanently in Gilead, there are plenty and plenty of options besides escape to Canada. Lets see her escape in the opposite direction and get stuck into the the war against Gilead. Very true, I often skip over the wolf episode in my head because, well...magic wolf. It has gotten so stale and predictable knowing June has 1 of 2 options. Either she gets mere inches from freedom and has it snatched away from her, or she herself does something illogical, irresponsible, and impossibly moronic to get herself deeper into the shit hole that is Gilead. How did they ever think that would work out to be decent character development? Or entertaining for the audience long term? They couldn’t be spinning their wheels anymore than if they were June in that car trapped in the frozen garage during the wolf episode. These writers picked the path to nowhere when it comes to June’s story, and that never needed to be the case. As you said, they had options, creative alternatives that they could have explored. Not more of this never-ending fuckery. 9 hours ago, PsychoDrone said: With these shows based on books, it becomes obvious pretty quickly when the writers are making it up as they go along. The Stephen King-based miniseries Under the Dumb...I mean Dome, had this problem in abundance. I gave up on that show after the second season. Like this show, the first season was good and drew in viewers. Studio execs saw the numbers and naturally want to keep the show going. Unfortunately, they don't have the talent of the original writer to flesh out the story. Also, the original story is finite and dragging it out is so obvious to the viewers. Game of Thrones experienced this too, but that show had a wealth of stories to pull from. But, it too ran out of stories from the books, and then the lower quality became obvious. The horrible final season demonstrates that to a tee. By the rules of Gilead, the whole Waterford house should have been on the wall LONG ago. We saw it happen with another commander's household. Keeping the Waterfords and June around is the writers insulting the viewers' intelligence and keeping a show going that doesn't stand up to the slightest scrutiny. June has plot armor that a nuke can't penetrate. The Waterfords is similar, but they will get their comeuppance as a "shock" in an attempt to keep viewers watching. At this point, I'm watching to get to the end of this season. Regardless of how this season ends, I'm done. Preach. I don’t care how well shot or designed a show is, making something look pretty is all well and fine, but if you really want to keep me invested in your story? Then fucking tell me one. At this point THT is the absolute worst “ pick your own adventure” tale. They throw in the most random, ridiculous, repetitive garbage again and again. And then only after the fact do they, half heartedly, try to explain this stupid idea or that idiot move, and convince us everything is going according to plan. There was a plan in season 1 because they had Atwood’s glorious book to pilfer from verbatim. They literally brought her story to life. But now the show is like Frankenstein’s monster. There is truly no method to their madness, it’s just a hot ass mess. 7 hours ago, Catfi9ht said: I agree on all points. Adapting a book for television is essentially editing a story so it translates better to a visual medium with condensed content. This is a completely different skill set than creating new content. I think this is exactly why the show's quality has plummeted. It's fairly apparent the showrunners are writing each episode individually rather than using an overarching story as a skeleton and filling in the details using the contents in individual episodes. Moment-to-moment, the character dialogue and situations in individual episodes are okay, but when you think about the overall world the characters live in, there isn't any consistency. My main problem with the show is there is no character growth. The characters are getting into the same situations, the same conflicts, etc. I could add examples, but I think folks have done a good job pointing them out already so I won't rehash them. I was going to post about how I was looking forward to next episode since it seems to be Lydia-centric. However, I thought better of it because I no longer have faith in the writing. I think it will do more to butcher the character than to add dimension. What a shame. The timing of this show's message with political events could have been used to great effect, but instead, the showrunner's hubris got in the way. I couldn’t agree with you more. To me, anything stretched over more than 1 or 2 seasons of a TV show should have a decent bit of consistency and foresight. It should be obvious there’s a plan, a chosen destination at the end of it, a worthy payoff for the plot and characters that satisfies the audience. This show seems nearly devoid of any of that now. We have no idea what each episode has in store storyline wise, but according to pattern we can almost be sure it won’t make sense or it will be another rehashing of something we’ve already seen. I had my concerns about Littlefield and Miller from the start, but I had no clue they would sink this show so fast. Edited July 6, 2019 by AnswersWanted 1 3 Link to comment
Ashforth July 6, 2019 Share July 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, kieyra said: But don’t forget, Emily has to atone. The show’s words (a recent episode synopsis), not mine. Sigh. I stick to watching the show and don't read the crap that the showrunners put out. If they don't have the skill to show it to me on the screen, I don't want their explanations or excuses. If Emily thinks she needs to "atone," (which is what I'm guessing the show is saying) give her a voiceover saying so. Maybe I'm too simple to get that from her complete lack of defending herself AND the other women imprisoned by this regime. So dumb it down for me, Show. Because otherwise it just seems ridiculous that she is going to say yes, I'm a murderous thug, when that is not at all who she is - or was, before her kidnapping, imprisonment, rape and torture. 33 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said: We have no idea what each episode has in store storyline wise, but according to pattern we can almost be sure it won’t make sense or it will be another rehashing of something we’ve already seen. And it's likely to contain something SHOCKING! Mouths pierced shut! Handmaids doing the hangings! That will likely not be mentioned again in any future episode. Edited July 6, 2019 by Ashforth 4 Link to comment
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