S02.E05: Kill Me

[ECM1231]

19 hours ago, teddysmom said:

At best it would be involuntary manslaughter.  Bonnie didn't intend to kill Perry, she intended to stop him from killing Celeste. 

THIS!!! Bonnie had been watching Celeste and Perry from a distance intently. She intuitively sensed something was wrong. We didn't know yet what type of abuse Bonnie suffered but it was implied last season in that very moment in the finale, that she was indeed abused.  This season they are showing her flashbacks with her and her abusive mother. Back to that night... when Bonnie saw Perry beating the shit out of Celeste and the other women trying to beat him off of her, she ran and with all of her might shoved him off. The shove caused him to fall and be impaled. There was no preplanned murder. Bonnie did was she did out of instinct and to stop Celeste from being beaten to death. How can anyone see it as anything else? Of course their mistake was lying. They can all thank Maddie for that. 

[OldButHappy]

On 7/8/2019 at 11:46 AM, khyber said:

I really think that the "evil" twin will do her in.  Also, I think that she or Perry is responsible for her other son's death.

Agree.  With both predictions.

[izabella]

4 hours ago, stagmania said:

Yes, but to what end? Why would the police be interested in trying to send a battered wife or her friend to prison for protecting themselves and accidentally killing a violent abuser in the process? What DA would want to try that case? What jury would convict?

Oh, I believe they would go after her and prosecute.  There was just a story in the news about a battered wife who took her husband's guns and turned them over to the police because she was afraid he might use them to kill her, and they arrested her for stealing his guns.  They might not go for murder, but definitely could for manslaughter, even involuntary manslaughter.  A rich white man died, and a POC woman pushed him to his death - that's exactly the scenario where the legal system chooses to punish.  Even battered wives who kill their abusers go to jail.  Lol, isn't that one of the stories of the women in prison in "Chicago"?

Edited July 10, 2019 by izabella

[FemmyV]

22 hours ago, gooberfish said:

3) The twins and Ziggy were the bullies in the scene. The “bully” was mean talking, smart alec talking. The others beat him up. Sort of like Perry beating up Celeste when he didn’t like something she said...

With the addition of ML this season, we are also getting a close look at verbal abuse, and peoples' reactions to it. Celeste slapping ML; the boys beating on the bully, as physical response was the tool they reached for.

On 7/8/2019 at 8:13 AM, mytmo said:

Corey looks too small to be a cop - not in height.  In shorts my mother would say "I've seen better legs on a pool table".

On Reddit, there's a spec that Corey is a journalist.

[Razzberry]

I'm pretty sure the coroner would have determined his death was accidental, which makes it even more unlikely any more man-hours would be spent on this.  Don't they need a finding of homicide first before proceeding?   

[izabella]

The coroner can only say he fell down the stairs and landed on rebar and the rebar killed him.  He wouldn't be able to tell if Bonnie deliberately pushed him expecting or intending for him to break his neck on the stairs or impale himself on rebar, or if she just tried to push him away from Celeste and he ended up falling down the stairs and dying accidentally.

[stagmania]

4 hours ago, izabella said:

Even battered wives who kill their abusers go to jail.  Lol, isn't that one of the stories of the women in prison in "Chicago"?

Absolutely - but not when they're wealthy and live in communities like Monterey.

[Razzberry]

Stairs are such a good murder weapon.  A well-timed push leaves no evidence and difficult to prove without witnesses.   A girlfriend of mine died from a fall down her stairs and I still think her husband did it because he had a new girlfriend moved in within a month.  Just a hunch because... no evidence.

[Umbelina]

While I agree this was "defense of others" and HAD THEY TOLD THE TRUTH to the police, I doubt any DA would have even taken this to court?

They did not tell the truth.  Thus casting suspicion on just why they didn't, and of courses, obstruction of justice charges, and probably a few others, including perjury if they testify to their lies.  (Which is the whole point of the "custody suit" IMO, a way to get all 5 on the witness stand.)  At least one will break.  At least one will say something contractility, and ML will have a chance at final getting answers about her son's death.

WE know Perry abused Celeste and raped Jane.  Jurors, or a judge, or the DA?  Don't know that. 

1. Celeste never told anyone the whole truth, not even the shrink.  Further, she told the shrink that the violence was mutual.
2. The kids know he beat her, but I seriously doubt she would allow them on the stand.
3. Rape, this far out, hasn't got a chance in hell of being proven.  Sex?  Yes, with DNA, but it's nearly impossible to get a white man convicted of rape, even with videotaped footage of it.
4. The only time an injury was on record as treated at a hospital or by a doctor was PERRY, who had a shattered urethra which his wife admitted to causing.
5. If it WAS a case of self defense or defense of others?  WHY did they lie?

I still think there will be another suspicious death this season, and that Jane's boyfriend will not be good for the women.  If, for example, ML "drowns" right before the hearing?  More suspicion.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Umbelina

[Lemons]

On 7/8/2019 at 1:33 AM, ferjy said:

Actually I think HollyG might be on to something. The father actually said he wanted to make the rage go away but didn’t specify whose rage. Could have been Bonnie’s rage at her abuser. And the mother could have started drinking because of the incident. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. 

I thought it was clear that they were discussing her mother when they talked about the rage.  Who else would that woman have been in Bonnie's flashbacks?  Any other woman and they wouldn't have her care for Bonnie anymore, problem solved.  

[Inquisitionist]

On 7/7/2019 at 10:27 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I found this episode really boring. 

It ended abruptly after barely 40 minutes, and I found myself thinking, "what exactly happened?"  Very odd.

On 7/8/2019 at 7:07 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Is Ed supposed to drive all the time because he's the one in the relationship with a penis? Not every heterosexual couple conforms to those stereotypes. A woman driving doesn't automatically mean she's showing that she's assertive. It just means that she's driving a car.

Thank you.  I drive because I like it more than my husband does.

[ferjy]

16 hours ago, Lemons said:

I thought it was clear that they were discussing her mother when they talked about the rage.  Who else would that woman have been in Bonnie's flashbacks?  Any other woman and they wouldn't have her care for Bonnie anymore, problem solved.  

You took it as that (as did I at first) but it was an ambiguous (intentionally?) conversation. He never specified the rage was the mother’s. He said “he wanted to stop the rage” (it could have been Bonnie’s rage). It could be that the mother didn’t believe Bonnie’s stories about being abused by whoever. Nobody is disputing that it is the mother in the flashbacks, but it never shows her hitting Bonnie in the flashbacks (or did I miss that?) just being firm. She may have been frustrated with Bonnie’s “stories” (as the mother saw them to be) and trying to tell her to stop spreading them.

[izabella]

59 minutes ago, ferjy said:

You took it as that (as did I at first) but it was an ambiguous (intentionally?) conversation. He never specified the rage was the mother’s. He said “he wanted to stop the rage” (it could have been Bonnie’s rage). It could be that the mother didn’t believe Bonnie’s stories about being abused by whoever. Nobody is disputing that it is the mother in the flashbacks, but it never shows her hitting Bonnie in the flashbacks (or did I miss that?) just being firm. She may have been frustrated with Bonnie’s “stories” (as the mother saw them to be) and trying to tell her to stop spreading them.

I think I must have missed something, or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying.  What stories?  Was Bonnie telling her mother that her mother was abusing her and her mother didn't believe her?  I'm not sure that makes sense.

[ferjy]

5 minutes ago, izabella said:

I think I must have missed something, or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying.  What stories?  Was Bonnie telling her mother that her mother was abusing her and her mother didn't believe her?  I'm not sure that makes sense.

Bonnie told her mother that “somebody” abused her and her mother didn’t believe her, figured she was just telling stories.  That’s what some viewers are gathering happened. 

[teddysmom]

18 hours ago, stagmania said:

Even battered wives who kill their abusers go to jail.  Lol, isn't that one of the stories of the women in prison in "Chicago"?

Except that story is based on women who were attractive and being found not guilty by jurors. 

17 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

Thank you.  I drive because I like it more than my husband does.

My sister always drives when she and her husband go somewhere. 

[BigBlueMastiff]

On 7/9/2019 at 8:06 AM, jeansheridan said:

That's true but I think of Ed as being there for Abigail since she was 8 or so. He even said he saw her like his own daughter. I  wish the show would give them one scene together because I think Abigail cares about him. She is a bit of a "cool" kid towards all the adults in her life so it doesn't show as much.  It's probably her age.  I think Ed was deeply hurt she knew about the affair and was so casually talking about it. Then again if her mom and Ed split it doesn't impact her all that much. It would completely change Chloe's world. Chloe has a lot more at stake. All the kids have a lot at stake this season really. 

And this is the problem with parents who treat their children as friends at an inappropriate age. No good parent would ever share that information  with their teenage daughter as a confidant. It just shows what a sick narcissist Madeline is. You don't ask for advice from your teenage daughter on something as serious and personal as cheating on your spouse, wrong on every level. Madeline is a terrible parent.

 

On 7/9/2019 at 1:07 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

So if Tori and her husband are into cuckolding or have an open relationship, will that enable Ed to let Maddie off the hook?

Cheating on Ed has nothing to do with the other couple's relationship, that's all on Madeline.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I’m still confused about hiring a lawyer to get custody of grandchild. If there was neglect or unsafe  environment then   CPS would step in grandparents have no rights to even see grandchildren unless they took care or had custody at some point.

I think the show has skipped several steps for dramatic purposes. No, in real life you can't just go get a lawyer, say you want to sue for custody of your grandchildren, and boom! You get a court date. Think of how many grandparents would get custody of their grandchildren simply because they don't like their daughter-in-law or son-in-law. 

We know that Celeste has had some slip-ups with the drugs and whatnot but Mary Louise doesn't actually have any proof of that. What she'd need is police reports or other documentation to show that Celeste has been negligent. She either needs to call the police or call CPS and ask for an investigation. And in Celeste's case - a very wealthy woman of means with no visible signs of neglect - CPS would tell Mary Louise to get lost. Even assuming CPS was able to compile some kind of documentation against Celeste the case would be very weak and a judge would side with Celeste assuming it ever got to a judge in the first place.

The way the show has set it up isn't very plausible, frankly.

[Lemons]

11 hours ago, ferjy said:

You took it as that (as did I at first) but it was an ambiguous (intentionally?) conversation. He never specified the rage was the mother’s. He said “he wanted to stop the rage” (it could have been Bonnie’s rage). It could be that the mother didn’t believe Bonnie’s stories about being abused by whoever. Nobody is disputing that it is the mother in the flashbacks, but it never shows her hitting Bonnie in the flashbacks (or did I miss that?) just being firm. She may have been frustrated with Bonnie’s “stories” (as the mother saw them to be) and trying to tell her to stop spreading them.

It’s definitely ambiguous.  I thought her mother was more than firm though.  She came across as mean and nasty and still does. 

[ferjy]

7 hours ago, Lemons said:

It’s definitely ambiguous.  I thought her mother was more than firm though.  She came across as mean and nasty and still does. 

I did too initially. It probably will end up that she’s abusive it I found it interesting that there might be a different angle. 

[buttercupia]

Just an aside, amazingly, it seems like Amabella is a sweet, loving, well-adjusted child. How did that manage to happen? Also, the little actress who plays her is adorable. (All the kids are, of course, vbut she stands out)

[stagmania]

On 7/10/2019 at 6:19 PM, Inquisitionist said:

It ended abruptly after barely 40 minutes, and I found myself thinking, "what exactly happened?"  Very odd.

It turns out that what happened is they cut a bunch of material trying to erase the female director from the show. 

[Inquisitionist]

35 minutes ago, stagmania said:

It turns out that what happened is they cut a bunch of material trying to erase the female director from the show. 

My god, that is horrendous.  But now I understand why I'm watching a train wreck.

[Crs97]

How in the world could this happen with Reese and Nicole as producers?  I am anxious to hear from everyone involved.

[Razzberry]

5 hours ago, stagmania said:

t turns out that what happened is they cut a bunch of material trying to erase the female director from the show. 

Wow! I remember Vallee saying last year that he didn't think a season 2 should happen (no doubt because he was working on Sharp Objects), so fuck him.  I couldn't care less about his "visual style" and haven't heard one complaint about that.  Any weakness is in the writing, but even that doesn't prevent me from thoroughly enjoying season 2. 

[formerlyfreedom]

Please take the discussion of the behind the scenes issues over to the Media topic, and stay on topic with the episode in here. Thank you.

[Jennabelle88]

On 7/7/2019 at 9:53 PM, answerphone said:

Why was Madeline driving? To show she's the assertive one in the marriage?

Wasn't that her car? Idk how yall do things, but over here, if we take my husband's car somewhere, he drives. If we take mine, I drive. 

On 7/8/2019 at 4:44 PM, Razzberry said:

Another thing that made no sense to me was ML's "generous" offer of joint custody.  So their mother is so bad that you feel the kids are in danger - but only on the weekend now?   During the week the kids aren't in danger?  This should negate her whole argument, but it's just bad writing.

This was my line of thinking. She's fighting for custody because the boys are in such bad danger, but when joint custody is suggested, she looks smug and satisfied. What happened to the danger part? Did we forget that was our main goal? How can she only be unfit on the weekends? Made no sense. 

On 7/8/2019 at 5:21 PM, chenoa333 said:

Not to mention that hideous wig she's wearing! 

I feel like that's why I can't engage in her scenes. I can't stop staring at that distracting wig. I can't take her seriously! What was the point in making her wear it? 

[deirdra]

On 7/13/2019 at 1:43 PM, Jennabelle88 said:

I feel like that's why I can't engage in her scenes. I can't stop staring at that distracting wig. I can't take her seriously! What was the point in making her wear it? 

And she keeps scratching it like she has an infestation of lice.

[grommit2]

Here's a question for you: 
1) all those scenes of characters staring out at the ocean...are they looking at the real ocean, or is that just CGI?
2)The show is filmed in Monterey California, but the end credits list Canadian tax credits.  How does that work?

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, grommit2 said:

Here's a question for you: 
1) all those scenes of characters staring out at the ocean...are they looking at the real ocean, or is that just CGI?
2)The show is filmed in Monterey California, but the end credits list Canadian tax credits.  How does that work?

It's actually filmed in Malibu I think.

[deirdra]

Filmed in California but Vallée works in Montreal for the film credits.

[answerphone]

It's filmed in both Malibu and in Monterey.

[Umbelina]

12 hours ago, answerphone said:

It's filmed in both Malibu and in Monterey.

Yes, I should have clarified, obviously all of the "establishing shots" are filmed in Monterey county, the drive along the Bixby bridge and Big Sur coast for example.  The houses and day to day action, including beach shots are all filmed in Malibu.

[tennisgurl]

It seems inevitable that Corey is sketchy, and I probably feel worst for Ziggy. He is getting super attached to this guy, so soon after finding out that his bio dad wasnt a dead hero but a (now dead) monster and he was conceived under terrible circumstances, and now this new possible good father figure is probably going to end up to be just using him and his mom for his own gain or to get his mom into jail or something else like that. This poor kid is going to have mountains of trust issues. 

[grommit2]

On 7/15/2019 at 12:43 PM, Umbelina said:

Yes, I should have clarified, obviously all of the "establishing shots" are filmed in Monterey county, the drive along the Bixby bridge and Big Sur coast for example.  The houses and day to day action, including beach shots are all filmed in Malibu.

My original question had to do with those scenes where the characters stare longingly at the ocean.  So, here's the question:  are they really staring at the real ocean?  OR, are they staring at a green screen (and the CGI crew inserts images of the ocean in post-production).

[Umbelina]

On 7/18/2019 at 8:33 AM, grommit2 said:

My original question had to do with those scenes where the characters stare longingly at the ocean.  So, here's the question:  are they really staring at the real ocean?  OR, are they staring at a green screen (and the CGI crew inserts images of the ocean in post-production).

Pretty sure most of those are the Malibu Ocean, unless it's an opening credits shot or a special shot filmed in Monterey County.

None of them look like Green Screen to me, and I don't think they'd need to do that anyway, since they are filming by the ocean anyway.  Maybe on a reshoot to match cloud patterns for a certain scene.

[Rahul]

On 7/10/2019 at 7:58 AM, jeansheridan said:

I wonder why the show keeps opening on the aftermath of his fall. I know it is partially to show they are all preoccupied with that moment (except Madeline, right? She seems square with it). But are there possibly clues we are missing? Or do I watch too much Westworld? 

I was finding this tiresome myself until I noticed that there are slight discrepancies within each recollection of the fall, as remembered by a different woman of the Monterey 5. For example, who uttered the line of "No one pushed him" or "Call an ambulance!" If you rewatch these opening scenes back to back (or binge watch as I have been doing), you will be more likely to see the small differences in each woman's recollection of that night. 

[Aqua]

Great episode with suspenseful ending! 

The scene with Renata and Celeste: Laura Dern is brilliant and hilarious.

Nicole lapsed into her Australian accent in the scene with the lawyers.

I still find Madeline and Ed to be completely boring as well as the ongoing rivalry between Ed and Nathan, but the last scene in the bar at least adds some spice to that storyline. 

[Aqua]

On 7/7/2019 at 10:07 PM, humbleopinion said:

Who was watching Tory pushing her rack into Ed’s face...at the table, seated in the dark?

Madeline’s cheat? So dark couldn’t see clearly....

I wondered about that too.

[Aqua]

On 7/7/2019 at 11:18 PM, ferjy said:

Apparently they do, they can go deep undercover and hook up with a partner and live the lie for months. Thing is, it's usually done to take down major drug cartels, not for lowly custody battles. 😀

I don't think it's for custody, it's to find out what really happened with Perry's death.

[Aqua]

On 7/7/2019 at 11:53 PM, SHD said:

I agree. I’m not really sure what’s going on, but that doesn’t seem plausible. My thought was that he got pulled in for some offense and we saw him being released. Or maybe pulled in to be questioned because of his relationship with Jane, not that he was set up to get involved with her. Honestly, I’m kind of worried that he has some offense concerning minors in his past, just because of how quickly he wanted to meet Ziggy.

I also saw him as a witness leaving after an interview and not a UC cop.

On 7/8/2019 at 12:43 AM, HollyG said:

Yes, Bonnie was walking up to the police station when she stopped because she saw Corey coming out. 

 

 

Did Bonnie ever meet Corey though?

Edited August 3, 2020 by ReviewX

[Aqua]

On 7/8/2019 at 1:32 PM, LibertarianSlut said:

Also, it seemed strange to me that Nathan was able to come to the hospital to collect Skye to take her to school.  When I was growing up, my dad was self-employed and I can count the number of times he dropped me off at school on one finger. I just think TV parents are constantly "around" these days, to impart wisdom at every turn, to shop, to be sitting on the couch when their kids come home from school, and that may be the experience of some parents these days, but it is not true of my experience, or the people I know, and it always takes me out of a scene when the parents both seem so hands-on, yet someone is clearly working full-time, and probably closer to an 80 hour week than a 40, and usually both parents are working, if we're being realistic.  

I know they need the parents there to make the show work, but it would have been so much more familiar to me if Nathan picked Skye up from the hospital and said he would drop Skye off on the way to this or that job (I don't know what he does for a living), and that he would see Bonnie later, at 10 pm.  Just one throwaway line would have changed the whole dynamic for me.

It was Skye's grandfather that picked her up at the hospital but otherwise I agree, the parents don't seem to really need to work like most people do.

[Aqua]

On 7/8/2019 at 5:44 PM, Razzberry said:

Did I miss something or is that schoolyard bully incredibly insightful?  When hearing that Ziggy and the twins have the same father he immediately says "That means your dad's a rapist!" WTF?  Why would anyone, let alone a kid, draw that conclusion right off the bat?

 

I think that was bad writing. The response should have been "Yeah, everyone knows your dad's a rapist."