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Castle - General Discussion


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On 10/6/2021 at 12:01 PM, tessaray said:

There was definitely something wrong between the leads - you could see it onscreen in later seasons. Of course, the explanation probably wouldn't fill a chapter much less a whole book. But I'd still like to know.

Yeah, something wasn't right but given that the showrunners stepped down after S6 and only stayed on board as executive producers and what Hawley then fabricated, I wonder if some of it can't also be attributed to that. As you noted, if leads don't like each other it usually doesn't translate to the screen. But from things I read back in the day, I wouldn't be surprised if Fillion's vision of what the show should be like matched Hawley's and that he had a hand in putting Hawley into the position he was in. I don't think showrunners should have changed - Marlowe and Miller were telling a story and putting someone else in charge of that story did not work because it wasn't your usual procedural but more like a book and each season was a chapter. And I think that showed; while I think they could have been a bit more original in S6, the show went downhill in S7 with that weird story about Castle's abduction. They should have gotten married because it was the next step/chapter in their story and then S7 should have been all about adjusting to married life.

To make a long story short, I don't think it were just the leads that were off in those later seasons. And I'm with you - I'd like to know, too.

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3 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

I don't think showrunners should have changed - Marlowe and Miller were telling a story and putting someone else in charge of that story did not work because it wasn't your usual procedural but more like a book and each season was a chapter.

I get what you're saying, but shows change showrunners all the time. And the buck stops at the network. So ABC must have not liked the falling numbers and then came the change. Not saying NF did or did not have input, but in the end, the network always has the final say.

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6 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Yeah, something wasn't right but given that the showrunners stepped down after S6 and only stayed on board as executive producers and what Hawley then fabricated, I wonder if some of it can't also be attributed to that. As you noted, if leads don't like each other it usually doesn't translate to the screen. But from things I read back in the day, I wouldn't be surprised if Fillion's vision of what the show should be like matched Hawley's and that he had a hand in putting Hawley into the position he was in. I don't think showrunners should have changed - Marlowe and Miller were telling a story and putting someone else in charge of that story did not work because it wasn't your usual procedural but more like a book and each season was a chapter. And I think that showed; while I think they could have been a bit more original in S6, the show went downhill in S7 with that weird story about Castle's abduction. They should have gotten married because it was the next step/chapter in their story and then S7 should have been all about adjusting to married life.

To make a long story short, I don't think it were just the leads that were off in those later seasons. And I'm with you - I'd like to know, too.

I think everyone involved got tired of the show and stopped making an effort. The original showrunner, the other writers, the actors, etc. Because in the early seasons whatever issues between the leads didn't show and the writing was much tighter. The changes may have been because people were bored with the storylines.

I'd like to know the whole story, but it is probably too soon for a tell all. 

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It's hard to keep a 'will they/won't they' show fresh past a couple of years and 5 years is a good run for most shows. 

I always thought Castle was best when he was a writer first and real life investigator second. But I also wished they could have moved to a more Hart to Hart vibe once they got together. Unfortunately no one asked for my input. 🙂

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8 hours ago, tessaray said:

It's hard to keep a 'will they/won't they' show fresh past a couple of years and 5 years is a good run for most shows. 

I always thought Castle was best when he was a writer first and real life investigator second. But I also wished they could have moved to a more Hart to Hart vibe once they got together. Unfortunately no one asked for my input. 🙂

I agree about the writer first, investigator second, I sort of agree on the latter. I'm not sure about the Hart to Hart vibe but TPTB definitely needed to change their approach once Castle and Beckett got together/got engaged and they either missed that or they didn't know how to (because they were too fixated on one thing). It seemed like TPTB were continuing with the will-they-won't-they even though they already had and then TPTB tried to get back what they had before they got together instead of looking at the conflict this relationship could bring.

It still semi-worked with the wedding preparations because there is a lot that can go wrong (I say semi-worked because I wish they wouldn't have done one problem per episode but had explored some issues for a bit longer) but I got the feeling that they didn't know what to do with the Castle-Beckett relationship in S7. Whether it was the network, the showrunners or something else or a mix of all of the above, I don't know. But it seemed like there was some sort of tunnel vision and no re-orientation. One thing I wish they had explored, for example, is the fact that Beckett and Castle had very different incomes. Sure, Beckett always had very nice clothes and quite the apartment for a police officer, still, she was a police officer with an detective's salary who got married to a millionaire. I think there could have been a story there but they ignored it. And while they touched on it with the Lion picture, they also never really talked about Beckett moving in some of her furniture or them getting new furniture together. (They don't even seem to have bought a new bed together). I think there were a lot of missed opportunities there.

 

12 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I get what you're saying, but shows change showrunners all the time. And the buck stops at the network. So ABC must have not liked the falling numbers and then came the change. Not saying NF did or did not have input, but in the end, the network always has the final say.

From what I gather, the network approves the overall arc but the details is up to the showrunners and I think it were (mostly) the details that didn't work. I wouldn't be surprised if a wedding was planned and the network didn't want the wedding to happen and that that led to S7 and Miller and Marlowe stepping down as showrunners. I think it's likely that the network thought that a wedding needed to happen at the end. (I also think it's likely that they reversed course when they saw the response).

Either way, I felt that there was no character growth anymore for anyone in S7 (or S8) and there was even some regression. The network dictating something that maybe wasn't planned, could explain it, I think.

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On 10/12/2021 at 3:07 PM, barshi50 said:

Castle is mini marathoning on Lifetime Channel right now. It comes and goes for the next few days. These are the early episodes, so good stuff!

I have been watching that as well.  The earliest seasons easily were the best.  As happens with most shows, once the UST is resolved, and the leads get together, the show goes downhill.  They made that dynamic too much of the story from the beginning, and now the writers don't know what to do with them any more.  It is a challenge to find ways to keep the dynamic going, but good writers should be able to do it.  Having them get married is the easy way out, but leaves the show with nowhere to go.  They should just keep the focus on the cases; at least that is what I watch for.  I have no interest in their married life.

As a side note, as I was watching these episodes being shown now, I noticed that this luxury apartment in what is probably a luxury building seems to have no windows.  Since I am used to having a lot of light in my apartment from big windows, the difference just really struck me with how dark their apartment is.  I realize this is just a TV set, but couldn't they have some sort of fake windows?

Edited by treeofdreams
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42 minutes ago, treeofdreams said:

I have been watching that as well.  The earliest seasons easily were the best.

I've been pulled into the marathon as well. I forgot how much fun the earliest seasons were. The banter was just so nice to watch.

I liked the show after the got them together, but it was different. I'm not sure why they couldn't have still bantered when they got together. Or why they couldn't have had Beckett involved in reading drafts of Castle's writing or having to navigate the fancy parties in his life. Seeing the early episodes reminded me of all the things I wanted them to do but they never did!

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1 hour ago, treeofdreams said:

As a side note, as I was watching these episodes being shown now, I noticed that this luxury apartment in what is probably a luxury building seems to have no windows.  Since I am used to having a lot of light in my apartment from big windows, the difference just really struck me with how dark their apartment is.  I realize this is just a TV set, but couldn't they have some sort of fake windows?

It's a loft, that's why there's so little light and hardly any windows. I think he has see-through windows in his office and kitchen, the rest look like they're milk glass windows. I guess, they were going for original vintage windows?

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Murder Most Fowl is one of my favorite episodes. I love how they start out with so many questions why was he in the park, the numbers in his apartment, him calling the tip line and even the equipment. But still can't explain why he was murdered. Until Castle sees the camera in his closet and realizes Lightbulb Len would have had a camera with him. That ends up breaking the case wide open. Even thought he died its great that he took a picture of the kidnapping. No one would have even known about it if he hadn't. Even thought they never mention it again I bet Castle did update the log in Central Park about the Red Tail Hawks. I can see him doing that.

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I’ve been watching via Hulu — man were the early seasons so good! I did skip a few episodes, but watched mostly through season 7, which seems have had a fairly natural ending. I remembered back in the day reading that the leads had started out as actual friends, before a rift developed between them that eventually became visible onscreen. It’s such a shame, and so unnecessary. But I agree that it the later writing did not help matters. I used to see a lot about the “Moonlighting curse” where shows supposedly went downhill after the UST was resolved, and how writers would stretch out UST as long as possible to avoid  that happening. Personally I think it’s bunk, and if writers would just learn how to write healthy relationships between lively characters as much as they write drama, they could resolve UST and still keep a show fresh.

It seems to me that most shows reinvent themselves (intentionally or inadvertently) every 4-5 seasons, and the vibe of the show is just different from before, even if the actors and settings are technically the same. The good ones shift in a way that keeps the show going; the not-so-good ones don’t, and the fault lines usually become visible enough to end the show. I was happy when Castle seemed to be shifting in a good way around season 5, but after that the strain became apparent and it all fell apart. I’m really glad it’s available via streaming though, cause there were sone really fun moments I like to revisit.

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3 hours ago, Thomas Crown said:

Castle, Remington Steele, Moonlighting ... seems all my favorite romantic detective shows had co-stars that really hated each other behind the scenes.  

Don't know if you ever watched Bones, but it seemed David Boreanaz and Emily Deschanel were the exceptions to the rule.

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I guess Lifetime likes the early seasons best too....they have been showing marathons and got up to the middle of season 5 then jumped back to season 1. 

However, I guess they have to cut a little bit for time to add more commercials or something, because I keep noticing small moments missing from the episodes. I haven't watched them since the show went off the air so am really surprised I even remember, but I do.

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4 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I guess Lifetime likes the early seasons best too....they have been showing marathons and got up to the middle of season 5 then jumped back to season 1. 

However, I guess they have to cut a little bit for time to add more commercials or something, because I keep noticing small moments missing from the episodes. I haven't watched them since the show went off the air so am really surprised I even remember, but I do.

I noticed they cut out pieces too. I didn't really expect it since TNT and ABC at 3am never cut out anything. 

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On 11/8/2021 at 10:59 PM, WendyCR72 said:

Don't know if you ever watched Bones, but it seemed David Boreanaz and Emily Deschanel were the exceptions to the rule.

I remember watching the first few episodes of Bones and never got into it.  DB was still Angel in my mind so it was hard to picture him as a new character on a TV show.  Glad to see that there are a few TV couples where everyone actually liked each other. 

I wasn't much into the Castle romance (I actually preferred the weekly cases) but even without searching the net for details, it was obvious to me that the was a lot of friction behind the scenes with the 2 leads on that show. 

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1 hour ago, DaynaPhile said:

Just coming to say I’m glad there are still fans enjoying watching Castle. I’ve been binging during recovery from surgery and falling in love all over again. Even finding my old fan video playlist on YouTube. 

Its still really fun to watch. Especially the early seasons.

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I really enjoyed seasons 1 through 6, season 7 was getting disjointed with the writing, and season 8 is awful, in my opinion.     They should have pulled the plug, and planned an exit by either the end of six, or at least season 7.   

It was such a fun show to watch for so long, and it's sad to end in the confused mess of season 8.   It's so obvious that the two leads can't even be in the same room.    Any chemistry they had in the early seasons was long gone.   

Edited by CrazyInAlabama
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On 2/2/2022 at 2:35 PM, CrazyInAlabama said:

I really enjoyed seasons 1 through 6, season 7 was getting disjointed with the writing, and season 8 is awful, in my opinion.     They should have pulled the plug, and planned an exit by either the end of six, or at least season 7.   

It was such a fun show to watch for so long, and it's sad to end in the confused mess of season 8.   It's so obvious that the two leads can't even be in the same room.    Any chemistry they had in the early seasons was long gone.   

I wish they had at season seven too. The season finale of the seventh season was a really good episode to end the series on. There's a couple episodes I like in season eight but they weren't worth the rest of the season being so horrible. If it was that bad with the leads who are supposed to be playing a happy married couple then just pull the plug. Alexis suddenly became amazing at everything. 

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I haven't a clue if it is still ongoing or done, but remember - in the old forum - there was a clip of a Russian adaption of Castle (seemingly scene for scene) called Bars (as the main character's name was Aleksandr Bars)? I found out it has a website. Mainly just pictures and synopses of episodes, but maybe you can match them to the episodes they are based upon! (There is one trailer video on the main page.) If you use Chrome, it can translate the site into English.

Found this via a Reddit link.

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(edited)

I’m up to season 3 on Hulu. It really was a great show at the beginnin.
 

I think I watched bones season 1. Never got into it. I think it’s on Hulu too.

Edited by iwantcookies
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1 hour ago, iwantcookies said:

I’m up to season 3 on Hulu. It really was a great show at the begging. 
 

I think I watched bones season 1. Never got into it. I think it’s on Hulu too.

Season three has a lot of really great episodes.

My mom loved Bone and kept trying to get me into it. I never did. I really hated Temprence "Bones". 

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(edited)

I’m doing the same thing!  Last week, started at the very beginning of the series on Hulu.  It is so charming from day one.  I came to Castle much later in the series so it’s fun to see these early episodes.  What a great team of characters.  I love love love Jon Huertas and Seamus Dever together.  They are magic - like brothers.  Nathan Fillion looks soooo good and of course, Stana is stunning.  It reminds me of Lucifer.

Edited by MerBearHou
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5 minutes ago, MerBearHou said:

I’m doing the same thing!  Last week, started at the very beginning of the series on Hulu.  It is so charming from day one.  I came to Castle much later in the series so it’s fun to see these early episodes.  What a great team of characters.  I love love love Jon Huertas and Seamus Dever together.  They are magic - like brothers.  Nathan Fillion looks soooo good and of course, Stana is stunning.  It reminds me of Lucifer.

Enjoy the series! Ryan and Esposito only get better. The four of them make a great team.

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On 10/10/2021 at 12:53 PM, iwantcookies said:

I think Nathan isn’t a nice guy. I have not seen the Rookie and don’t plan to.

So many of his Castle co-stars have appeared on The Rookie.  It makes it look like he was pals and stayed pals with several.  

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On 2/6/2022 at 2:14 AM, andromeda331 said:

I wish they had at season seven too. The season finale of the seventh season was a really good episode to end the series on. There's a couple episodes I like in season eight but they weren't worth the rest of the season being so horrible. If it was that bad with the leads who are supposed to be playing a happy married couple then just pull the plug. Alexis suddenly became amazing at everything. 

Not only that, she became a completely different character, as did Castle with regards to Alexis. I don't think he would suddenly have stopped being the overprotective father - and that right there could have been one of the many things they could have Castle and Beckett deal with. Throughout the show, she always was a bit on Alexis' side and I'm sure they could have continued it after they got married.

For S8, the showrunner was definitely the problem. Castle was a procedural but at the same time, the original showrunners seemed to have a clear vision where they wanted to go and you can't just change showrunners for a show like that unless the showrunner understand the original vision. Hawley clearly did not or did not care.

Before that, I think the rift between the actors was the problem. It's such a pity and not professional at all. One could argue that there is a difference between making a movie with someone you don't like (I read somewhere that Jennifer Grey and Patrick Swayze didn't like each other) and a TV show. On the other hand, no one asked them to renew their contracts. But since they did, they should have sucked it up and left their personal problems out of the studio.

3 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

So many of his Castle co-stars have appeared on The Rookie.  It makes it look like he was pals and stayed pals with several.  

That's interesting because it always sounded like the issue was with him and I remember pictures or videos where he was missing. It also seemed like whenever there was an interview on one of the various TV news sites, it was with her which gave me the impression that she was more approachable. But I guess, with regards to pictures/videos it was simply that where she was, he wasn't and vice-versa.

Makes me wonder what happened. I mean, what makes one dislike someone else so much? I read that he had an issue with the work hours and didn't show up for work one day or something along the lines but if that is reason enough to dislike someone to the extent that you can't do your work properly anymore, then you might be the problem.

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49 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

Makes me wonder what happened. I mean, what makes one dislike someone else so much? I read that he had an issue with the work hours and didn't show up for work one day or something along the lines but if that is reason enough to dislike someone to the extent that you can't do your work properly anymore, then you might be the problem.

Maybe. But Fillion has been steadily employed on TV for close to three decades. If he were that much of a problem, I think the shine would have long since faded to anyone in charge.

Could be there are no villains, just opposing personalities that, over time, started to grate. It happens.

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22 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Maybe. But Fillion has been steadily employed on TV for close to three decades. If he were that much of a problem, I think the shine would have long since faded to anyone in charge.

Good point.

22 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Could be there are no villains, just opposing personalities that, over time, started to grate. It happens.

But to that extent? I don't doubt that you're right, I'm just having a really hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that opposing personalities would lead to two people not wanting to be in scenes together where they are characters and acting.

Then again, I don't recall anyone I know who I disliked so much that I didn't even want to be in the same room as them.

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15 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Good point.

But to that extent? I don't doubt that you're right, I'm just having a really hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that opposing personalities would lead to two people not wanting to be in scenes together where they are characters and acting.

Then again, I don't recall anyone I know who I disliked so much that I didn't even want to be in the same room as them.

If you watch behind the scenes stuff you can see that there wasn't an issue between the actors in the early seasons. It started somewhere in the middle. So I don't think it was just clashing personalities, I think something happened to cause a falling out. And they managed to still act together for awhile, but eventually got tired of trying. 

But just because they had a falling out doesn't mean one of them is bad and one of them is good. Fans always want to blame 1 person, but in real life it doesn't work like that. However, if it hasn't leaked by now, we likely will never know the real story.

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I’m doing a rewatch now, myself. Middle of season 3 so far and mostly enjoying it, until I get to the once-a-year Beckett’s mom conspiracy plot. Boy, those are a drag.

Also, I find myself shipping Beckett with all her non-Castle love interest. Michael Trucco and Victor Webster? Yes please! 

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10 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

I’m doing a rewatch now, myself. Middle of season 3 so far and mostly enjoying it, until I get to the once-a-year Beckett’s mom conspiracy plot. Boy, those are a drag.

Totally💯 agree with this☝️

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I haven’t seen the show since it was first run. Most of these episodes, I don’t remember who did it (although the Most Recognizable Guest Star Is The Murderer Theory usually pans out), so I can’t really skip. Also, when I do rewatches, I try not to “cheat” and skip episodes*. I do let it run while I do dishes or laundry or read a book, though.

*My one skip exemption was when I rewatched Smallville and got to Lana’s Return in season 8. You couldn’t pay me enough to suffer through that again.

Oh, and some guest stars are a surprise because they end up becoming big stars later. Why, hello, Chadwick Boseman, I didn’t know you guest starred on Castle!

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28 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

Oh, and some guest stars are a surprise because they end up becoming big stars later. Why, hello, Chadwick Boseman, I didn’t know you guest starred on Castle!

The guest stars are the best. 

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3 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Why, hello, Chadwick Boseman, I didn’t know you guest starred on Castle!

I just saw that one too.  Seeing that wonderful face — young, healthy, full of life — made me sad actually, just knowing what was coming for him in just a few years.  Loved Chadwick.  

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Finished! Binged the whole series. One thing I wanted to comment on was that I did like that even though Alexis was the most ridiculously Mary Sue Perfect Teenager, she could have easily been annoying but she was rather likeable. So I guess props to Molly Quinn for the portrayal there. Though it threw me in the last two seasons where Alexis had hit drinking age and was swilling scotch and wine with Castle and Beckett. 

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6 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Finished! Binged the whole series. One thing I wanted to comment on was that I did like that even though Alexis was the most ridiculously Mary Sue Perfect Teenager, she could have easily been annoying but she was rather likeable. So I guess props to Molly Quinn for the portrayal there. Though it threw me in the last two seasons where Alexis had hit drinking age and was swilling scotch and wine with Castle and Beckett. 

With the exception season six with Pi and her suddenly the amazing PI skills that came out of nowhere, I did too. She was a great character. Molly was a great actress. A lot of my favorite scenes are between Alexis and Richard.

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Watching the rerun of Setup and Countdown. Shouldn't you want to explore all avenues and not just have it-must-be-the-foreigners-tunnel vision when chasing a dirty bomb? And seriously, he then has the audacity to say to Beckett and Castle that he would have been more impressed if they had succeeded at stopping the bomb? How about some self-reflection. If he had been willing to at least entertain the possibility that Castle was right, Beckett and Castle wouldn't have gone to the warehouse alone. Even if DHS agent hadn't been willing to send a whole team, they would have gone with Ryan and Esposito. That would have been two more people with guns and that would likely have stopped the perps (which couldn't happen because it's a double episode but that's beside the point).

I'm yet again struck by how good the writing and acting was! It was so much more than a crime procedural and no matter how it ended, I wish there were more of this quality on TV.

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2 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Watching the rerun of Setup and Countdown. Shouldn't you want to explore all avenues and not just have it-must-be-the-foreigners-tunnel vision when chasing a dirty bomb? And seriously, he then has the audacity to say to Beckett and Castle that he would have been more impressed if they had succeeded at stopping the bomb? How about some self-reflection. If he had been willing to at least entertain the possibility that Castle was right, Beckett and Castle wouldn't have gone to the warehouse alone. Even if DHS agent hadn't been willing to send a whole team, they would have gone with Ryan and Esposito. That would have been two more people with guns and that would likely have stopped the perps (which couldn't happen because it's a double episode but that's beside the point).

I'm yet again struck by how good the writing and acting was! It was so much more than a crime procedural and no matter how it ended, I wish there were more of this quality on TV.

I agree. That was his full time job. You'd think Fallon would have started to wonder about all the pieces that were being dropped were a little too neatly pointed to the cabbie. How often does that happen? He really should have apologized to Castle and Beckett when they turned out to be right and they found the bomb. And yes some self-reflection. Fallon had been fooled completely by the frame up. Castle had good questions. Why wasn't the cousin nervous if he really knew he was transporting a bomb? Why would he or his cousin have used a bank used by American soldiers?  

I do love that Castle's first thought about the cameras in the cab being for a reality show. 

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