sistermagpie April 16, 2020 Share April 16, 2020 Just finished Baggage, aka “the one with the suitcase.” EST Men set up a lot of plot stuff and this ep starts laying the foundations for the characters’ emotional journeys. Since I now know where everything’s going I’m trying to map out everybody’s issues (baggage). In Russia, Nina meets her new roommate, the Belgian girl she’s going to sell out. It’s a prelude to her finally refusing to do that sort of thing, which is really what she’s been doing all along. Just now it’s more obvious because it’s just her in a cell. We meet Oleg’s dad, who doesn’t believe in using his influence for personal gain, but came to see Nina because he loves his son. He voices one of the main themes of the series when he tells her that as a parent you want to understand your kid to do what’s best for them and are usually disappointed. Yeah. STAN Stan has a stand-off at gunpoint where he’s the one who walks away, daring the other guy to shoot. Afterwards he tells Sandra she’s the only person he wanted to talk to about it. (He originally called to speak to Matthew.) Sandra gently but firmly tells him that’s no longer her role. Stan says he doesn’t want anything from her, but then tries to kiss her—I think that’s the only time we see him try to do that. Both Stan and Elizabeth reveal something personal in this ep and seem to feel they should get the reaction they want in return. There’s no way Stan told Sandra the context of this meeting with Oleg (i.e., Nina), so his confession isn’t exactly honest. I don’t think he’s being completely manipulative, but it does seem like since he felt a true longing for his family here, he thought Sandra should take him back. Sandra still feels so much closer to him than sunny Renee ever will. If the showrunners were just trying to make Renee seem like a spy but we’ll never know, sorry but she only really makes sense as a spy. Because while I believe Stan might accept a relationship like that we’ve got no backstory to explain why this woman would. PAIGE S3’s Paige is at her most dressed up. Her hair is like a wavy, shiny cascade—a real contrast to the washerwoman ponytail we know is coming—and perfectly fitting for a Christian Youth Group girl. It seems related to her starting to feel more confident and mature. She’s important at church, and thinks her mom is accepting her and even following her lead. (And while she could have just changed her style by S6, it also works as another subtle sign she’s not being herself that season.) Early on she asks Elizabeth if Philip could be having an affair, like what happened with a friend of her’s father. (I assume this was brought up in youth group—a really useful way to have Paige be friendless w/o being an outcast, plus it’s appropriately false-intimate, that is, it’s a place where people share personal things w/you, but as part of the group, not as your friend.) When Elizabeth confidently denies it, Paige asks how she can know for sure. Then she notes that Philip and Elizabeth look out for each other first, more than they do her and Henry. Obviously that will always be true. I always remembered this scene because it seems to go right to the heart of Paige’s issues about wanting intimacy and trust. How does Elizabeth *know* that Philip isn’t cheating on her? And Elizabeth’s answer is actually honest. She really does “just know” after years of getting to know the guy. This, it seems, is what Paige wants for herself, like she says in Harvest. We know from the past that “having an affair” is for Paige a sort of code for her general feeling that people in the house are lying. Because it’s not like she’s specifically being distrustful of Philip here. She really does seem to be asking about how to trust people in general and claims she likes the marriage being the primary relationship in the house. Maybe at this point the attention Elizabeth is giving her makes her less anxious about being on the outside of that (with Philip outside their church connection). Her development hasn’t yet been knocked off-course by the secret. PHILIP Annelise’s death speeds up Philip’s feelings of guilt and regret about his job and of course plays into the central conflict about Paige. I love his argument with Elizabeth in the bathroom. Nervous about going to Yousef’s CIA meeting w/o backup, Philip asks if Elizabeth can’t speed up Hans’ training. Elizabeth responds that if she’d been handling Yousef herself they wouldn’t be in this position. Philip defensively says it wasn’t his fault what happened to Annelise—their job is unpredictable and that’s why he doesn’t want Paige to do it. I don’t think that was Elizabeth’s point at all, but it makes sense he’d hear it that way. This scene explicitly shows their different priorities: Elizabeth puts the cause first, Philip the family—yes, he wants his kids’ lives to be easy. When he comes into the kitchen and hears Paige reading the paper with anti-capitalist comments to Elizabeth’s approval and realizes what he’s seeing, his instinctive response is to want her to stay a child and that’s not going to work. In fact, it just irritates her. Philip’s not yet in EST and hasn’t yet met Kimmie, a relationship that I think is central to Philip’s able to objectively think about what influenced him. He’s only just starting to feel qualms about it that he can’t understand yet, imo. ELIZABETH Elizabeth, otoh, thinks she knows exactly why she’s here and why Paige should be too. I hadn’t remembered that the ep that ends with Elizabeth telling Philip about her mother not hesitating to send her into this life is the same one that shows the flashback to Elizabeth learning her father was shot as a traitor. A flashback Elizabeth doesn’t acknowledge at all to Philip or, possibly, even to herself. It really bookends the whole thing. Young Nadyezhda tells her mom her father deserves her presence at the war memorial, both as a soldier and as a husband. Her mother says all of that isn’t for him, and I can’t see how Elizabeth could hear that as not saying he doesn’t deserve to be mourned. Their kitchen, btw, looks like Falls Church compared to what we’ll see of Philip’s home. I think, btw, this is central to Elizabeth’s relationship to Philip, who ultimately seems to embody the kind of person Elizabeth imagined her father was—a hero who loves her most of all. It’s an important contrast to the other men she’s been drawn to throughout. I’m not sure where exactly Elizabeth ends up on her complicated relationship with her mother. Like Stan, Elizabeth clearly thinks telling this story will put Philip at least a little more on her side. Instead Philip responds much the way Sandra does. In fact, the scenes are even blocked similarly. Both Philip and Sandra are on their knees at a point during their scene, with Elizabeth and Stan sitting down (Elizabeth is sort of squatting/sitting). Then when Elizabeth/Stan reach out for the agreement they think they’re going to get, Philip/Sandra instead move back and higher up. The scenes end with one person walking away, but it’s clear in both cases who’s being denied. It’s a really cool parallel! Philip and Sandra are compassionate, but they’re not soft. GABRIEL The relationship with Gabriel is I think more complicated than the one with Claudia, because Claudia’s not as close, as conflicted or as subtle a manipulator. In his scene with Elizabeth he gets himself a maternal endorsement—the tape he brought Elizabeth included her mom saying what a good man he is, etc. He says she’s beautiful and that Elizabeth’s job makes her mother’s life happy. He gets to be both the KGB daddy figure he’s always been, plus part of the family—and naturally Elizabeth is eager to assure everyone how reliable she still is. There is a difference, though, in that in the past she no doubt would have strategized with Gabriel about what to do about Philip or how to work around him to recruit Paige. But while Elizabeth seems as trusting of Gabriel as ever, when Gabriel asks her what she means by saying that she and Philip “were” different now but things are hard with Paige, she tells him about Paige thinking he’s having an affair rather than get into Philip’s real issues. Gabriel brushes that aside and ends the scene saying, “She trusts you though, right?” At the time I found that line ominous because Gabriel’s pleased that Paige doesn’t trust Philip and does trust Elizabeth, the one on board with the Centre. But now it’s ominous for other reasons. We now know that yes, Elizabeth will gain Paige’s trust, yes she will recruit her, and that’s exactly what will make Paige reject their whole relationship as a lie. Oh, and one other bit of foreshadowing in that exchange with Philip about Hans, what Elizabeth did mean there was that Annelise died because Philip gave her a job she couldn’t handle, so she’s not going to use Hans before he’s ready. So in S6 Paige has been trained enough that Elizabeth at least doesn’t think more training will help, but still can’t be relied upon. I think that’s both a sign of how sloppy Elizabeth has gotten by then and also how the energy she does have goes into believing in fantasies, both about the USSR and about Paige as her successor. 2 Link to comment
VCRTracking April 17, 2020 Share April 17, 2020 Matthew's new role. Raymond Burr is going to be a tough act to follow but Matthew can make it his own. https://twitter.com/HBO/status/1250831437416316928?s=19 2 Link to comment
Roseanna April 19, 2020 Share April 19, 2020 On 4/16/2020 at 6:29 AM, sistermagpie said: Young Nadyezhda tells her mom her father deserves her presence at the war memorial, both as a soldier and as a husband. Her mother says all of that isn’t for him, and I can’t see how Elizabeth could hear that as not saying he doesn’t deserve to be mourned. Their kitchen, btw, looks like Falls Church compared to what we’ll see of Philip’s home. By the Soviet standards, they were rather well-off as they had a kitchen of their own and not have to share the common kitchen of the kommunalka. I still can't understand why the "traitor's" family wasn't discriminated. Link to comment
sistermagpie April 19, 2020 Share April 19, 2020 8 hours ago, Roseanna said: By the Soviet standards, they were rather well-off as they had a kitchen of their own and not have to share the common kitchen of the kommunalka. I still can't understand why the "traitor's" family wasn't discriminated. That always confused me because I could swear Elizabeth mentions living in a kommunalka, but their kitchen here looks like it's just theirs. Plus, her mother makes a reference to Elizabeth waiting for her at the table in their kitchen in a way that makes it sound like it was their own, because why would she be sitting and thinking in a kitchen with other people going in and out and using the table? On the discrimination, it almost makes it seem as if her mother was lying somehow because obviously somebody would have to have told her what happened to her husband, yet there's never a hint that Elizabeth and her mother suffer any consequences of this at all! Her mother, who works for the party, even has a picture of her father up in the house and Elizabeth thinks he's a hero up until this moment. 1 Link to comment
Roseanna April 27, 2020 Share April 27, 2020 On 4/19/2020 at 8:37 PM, sistermagpie said: That always confused me because I could swear Elizabeth mentions living in a kommunalka, but their kitchen here looks like it's just theirs. Plus, her mother makes a reference to Elizabeth waiting for her at the table in their kitchen in a way that makes it sound like it was their own, because why would she be sitting and thinking in a kitchen with other people going in and out and using the table? On the discrimination, it almost makes it seem as if her mother was lying somehow because obviously somebody would have to have told her what happened to her husband, yet there's never a hint that Elizabeth and her mother suffer any consequences of this at all! Her mother, who works for the party, even has a picture of her father up in the house and Elizabeth thinks he's a hero up until this moment. I guess we must simply overlook that the scenes in Russia aren't very accurate. I just read a article about coronavirus situation in Russia. It was said that 230 00 families lives still in kommunalkas in St Petersburg. My guess is that it's about the houses where the rich people had before the revolution big apartments that were divided between several families. Although you can't understand Finnish, pictures show what it means to live in kommunalka: https://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/art-2000006487828.html 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie April 27, 2020 Share April 27, 2020 10 hours ago, Roseanna said: I just read a article about coronavirus situation in Russia. It was said that 230 00 families lives still in kommunalkas in St Petersburg. My guess is that it's about the houses where the rich people had before the revolution big apartments that were divided between several families. Wow, did they mean they're still living communally? I think I remember reading that those apartments were very popular for rich people--that is, one family now taking up a space that would have been used by several families in the past. But I guess it makes sense that plenty of people would just stay where they were. I also read once that older people with dementia sometimes live in re-creations of Soviet housing like that because it's comforting and nostalgic for them. Link to comment
sistermagpie May 13, 2020 Share May 13, 2020 Just watched Open House—aka, the one with the tooth--and wow, there’s a lot in this one! Where to start? I guess I’ll go by the characters again. PAIGE The ep takes place on a Saturday where Paige does laundry, coming across Henry’s picture of Sandra Beeman. Paige is watching Fantasy Island when Philip comes home and says she couldn’t sleep, which makes it sound like she tried to sleep, couldn’t and got redressed in her trousers and turtleneck sweater just to watch TV on the couch. Okay, obviously she didn’t really go to bed, but I think the outfit is intentionally formal for a 14-year-old at home on a Saturday. It really seems like her at-home wardrobe this season is intentionally signaling her desire to be seen as an adult in the house. Kimmy is seen (from a distance) for the first time in this ep, having pushy conversations about sex with Passwell, for whom she babysits. Kimmy wants sex with an older man. Paige wants to be more like one of the parents at home. Oleg and Hans are also men eager to be seen as equal to their adult mentors, btw. Oh, and when it comes to Oleg, his dad is Elizabeth, pulling strings to get him home; Arkady is Philip, telling Oleg to decide for himself. Hans, Kimmy and Henry all show sexual interest in an older person, all at different stages. Hans is an adult, old enough to sleep with Elizabeth if they both wanted it. Henry is still a little boy crushing on a pretty lady old enough to be his mother. Kimmy is halfway between the two, which makes things tricky. STAN Stan starts suspecting Zinaida isn’t a true defector after a convo with Adderholt where Stan says he convinced the white supremacists he was one of them simply by telling them over and over what they wanted to hear, which Zinaida does in the next scene. It’s so impossible for me to believe Stan was undercover. Even in this very scene he tells Adderholt he’s going to go babysit “Z...ed...the defector.” Having already failed to pronounce her last name, he gives up trying on her first as well. He’s just consistently uncomfortable with stuff outside his normal and his attitude toward Russian has always reflected that. He’s not a guy who adjusts easily to fit in socially either. If he feels too weird saying Zinaida how did he spew racial slurs for 3 years and then just switch it off? And why would anybody even think of this guy for that job? PHILIP Philip is bombarded with kids throughout the ep. He brings up Jared, argues with Elizabeth and Gabriel about Paige. Talks with Martha about foster care. In his Clark persona Philip pretends to be strongly anti-children, but can’t help but soften when Marta asks him if he doesn’t value giving a child a home and just watching them grow and learn and having a relationship with them. That’s exactly what he wants and it shows—and Martha’s the only person in his life who validates the position. Another costume note—Clark’s pajamas are so perfect. Philip never wears them, but of course Clark would wear those pajamas. They’re even in Clark earth tones! Then Kimmy makes her first appearance. Now that the show’s all over I can honestly say: I love Kimmy. I think she was a great idea, hugely important to Philip’s development. On one hand she’s a parallel daughter, being only a few months older than Paige. But Paige can only be a daughter to Philip, where as Kimmy can also be a young friend who relates to the teenager he once was. Both Philip and Elizabeth were frozen in adolescence when they started training. Elizabeth often seems like an adolescent in her relationships to parental figures like Gabriel, Zhukov, Claudia and her mother. Philip has some of that with Gabriel, but he’s a different type of teen. In fact, one can really see in the Philip/Gabriel and Elizabeth/Claudia relationships the two of them growing up at last—with Philip making his father figure rethink his choices and continue to try to do right by him while Elizabeth’s mother figure remains condescending, defiant and unmoved by Elizabeth. The main thing we’re told about pre-Philip Mischa is that he hadn’t yet become the man he would have been, and I think Kimmy is partly there to make Philip think of himself as a teenager. If Martha is the source who most represents the breaking down his earlier defenses, Kimmy is the one who reflects him finding strength without them. Re-watching the ep now, a fifth kid becomes clearly visible: Mischa Jr. Philip is the one leading the charge on the Passwell op. Gabriel even tries to put on the brakes. Philip wouldn’t have ever been working Kimmy if he wasn’t trying to protect Mischa Jr. (who he doesn’t even yet know for sure exists) in Afghanistan. Philip is just surrounded by phantom children on all sides, slowly gathering like ghosts. In fact neat little note—Elizabeth’s pre-Centre Russian flashbacks are largely chronological. The same girl plays her each time, getting older as Elizabeth does, with Keri Russell in the final one. Philip’s Russian flashbacks for the most part go backwards, with each actor younger than the last. ELIZABETH Elizabeth, meanwhile, is super ready to do to others what was done to her. This ep includes the two scenes I remembered of Hans’s training—so that’s 3 scenes so far. In both he’s on the street being tested by Elizabeth on identifying everyone. In the first scene he flirts with her and she rejects him. Then, after a slightly nasty exchange with Philip, she pretends she’s interested in him too without encouraging him further. Watching these scenes now really underlines how dangerously incapable Paige is in S6. Hans is expected to remember many details about people he saw two blocks earlier while walking and appearing to not notice them at all. Paige fails to accurately repeat a name she was able to openly stare at for over a minute. I know it was suggested the Elizabeth simply didn’t train Paige, but clearly she did because Paige echoes Hans in this scene when she tells Elizabeth about the sailor. (Also there’s just no logical, practical or psychological reason for Elizabeth not to train her; it would be like suggesting Elizabeth tipped Stan off that they were spies for some reason.) Paige does what Hans does, she just gets the description wrong and Elizabeth had no way to know it immediately. Paige could very well have done better in training than she did on the job, but she couldn’t have done that well at all to fail that easy an ID that completely under that little stress. It’s possible Elizabeth started seeing what she wanted to see in Paige as soon as she started training her. Telling herself, as she does later in S6, that Paige’s mistakes will fix themselves because she is her daughter. This theme of people seeing what they want to see is central to the series—Elizabeth mentioned it to Paige in S1 and Stan reiterates it here when talking about fooling the white supremacists, saying that everyone loves to hear how right they are, no one more so than Elizabeth. Then there’s this scene with Elizabeth and Philip in the bedroom that’s got a lot going on. First, there’s the Hans part. Elizabeth tells Philip Hans was flirting with her but she shut him down, hoping to catch Philip’s interest. Instead Philip simply asks if that was wise since, “You recruit men...that’s part of it, isn’t it?” In another context this could come across as Philip slut-shaming Elizabeth, but what he’s really doing, imo, is intentionally shoving in Elizabeth’s face what kind of job she’s expecting her daughter to do. Sex *is* the part of the job that Elizabeth hates the most, even if she can’t/won’t think about exactly how she feels about it. Philip’s not going to allow her to create a PG-rated version for Paige in her head. And Elizabeth responds by doubling-down on the cause. She does lie to Hans about being sexually interested. All this is central to what Paige wants (a genuine relationship) and ultimately realizes Elizabeth is keeping from her by bringing lies to (almost) every relationship she has. Throughout the show Elizabeth really struggles with the sex part of the job, without ever wanting to look deeper into it. She and Philip have parallel original traumas in her rape and his childhood murder. For Elizabeth’s dreams of her daughter understanding and loving her to end in her daughter branding her a whore that no one could love is just about the worst way that could end—though of course, this being Elizabeth, she reacts defensively. That’s also, imo, why it’s so important that Philip really is never anything but understanding on this issue. The other part of the bedroom scene brought up a question I’d had for years. The scene contains the first reference to Paige’s upcoming 15th birthday. Elizabeth has seen a necklace Paige would like and wants that to be her present instead of the ten-speed Philip suggested. Philip accuses her of just thinking Paige will like the necklace because Elizabeth herself likes it, not trying to hide the metaphor there. On first watch I mostly noted that Philip’s gift was a symbol of freedom and independence (Philip will later be the one to teach her to drive) while Elizabeth’s was a chain around her neck. But I’d often wondered if this birthday necklace that Philip ultimately agrees to was supposed to be Paige’s cross. On one hand, that’s the necklace she always wears from S3-5. Otoh, it seemed impossible Elizabeth would ever give her that, much less refer to it as just “a necklace.” So I hunted down exactly where we first see Paige wearing that cross. It’s in EST Men. Paige starts wearing that necklace somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd seasons. Which makes sense and makes this scene that much significant for Elizabeth. Because clearly Paige has chosen a necklace she wants to wear every day, not as jewelry but as an expression of identity. Elizabeth isn’t giving Paige a gift, she’s trying to get rid of the cross. Paige essentially gets no official birthday gift from her parents that year because Elizabeth hijacks it. There’s just no other way to interpret that given the facts, and yet the show never even makes it explicit. But it’s important, not just in showing how much Elizabeth wants to shape Paige’s identity, but in how it doesn’t work. Throughout the show there’s a lot of consistent hints about how Elizabeth will never turn Paige into who she wants. When she thinks she’s convinced her of the rightness of her cause, it’s really just trauma making Paige temporarily submit. 3 Link to comment
Roseanna May 16, 2020 Share May 16, 2020 On 5/13/2020 at 6:32 AM, sistermagpie said: Both Philip and Elizabeth were frozen in adolescence when they started training. Elizabeth often seems like an adolescent in her relationships to parental figures like Gabriel, Zhukov, Claudia and her mother. Philip has some of that with Gabriel, but he’s a different type of teen. In fact, one can really see in the Philip/Gabriel and Elizabeth/Claudia relationships the two of them growing up at last—with Philip making his father figure rethink his choices and continue to try to do right by him while Elizabeth’s mother figure remains condescending, defiant and unmoved by Elizabeth. That's very insightfull. Because P&E started training in adolescence, they never experienced the mental changes in the Soviet Union during the "thaw" and disappointments when it failed. Alhough it was very different to be live on the periphery than among the intelligentsia in Moscow or Leningrad, I still think that if Elizabeth had stayed in the USSR, she couldn't have stayed such a ideological fanatic than she did in the US where she no doubt identified staying loyal to ideology as staying loyal to her "true" inner self she had otherwise to hide. It was very interesting to read in Ben Macintyre's book about Oleg Gordievsky, The spy and the traitor, that none of Gordievsky's collegues in Copenhagen were ideological although unlike him they weren't willing to betray their country. So I suppose Claudia wasn't a typical case. Generally, I think that one of the reasons to the fall of the Soviet Union was that it simply fossilized as the youth wasn't allowed to rebel against the older generation. However heroic Claudia had been during the war, in normal circumstances children (i.e. Elizabeth) would have said in 60ies and 70ies "I want to live my own life and find my own values, not listen to your memories again". Only after some 50 years grandchildren are used to become to interested in war (or immigrant) memories. 1 Link to comment
Milburn Stone May 16, 2020 Share May 16, 2020 (edited) Julia Garner (Kimberly) is garnering plaudits for her performance in The Assistant. Edited May 16, 2020 by Milburn Stone 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie May 19, 2020 Share May 19, 2020 On 5/16/2020 at 3:12 AM, Roseanna said: Because P&E started training in adolescence, they never experienced the mental changes in the Soviet Union during the "thaw" and disappointments when it failed. Alhough it was very different to be live on the periphery than among the intelligentsia in Moscow or Leningrad, I still think that if Elizabeth had stayed in the USSR, she couldn't have stayed such a ideological fanatic than she did in the US where she no doubt identified staying loyal to ideology as staying loyal to her "true" inner self she had otherwise to hide. Yes, when Elizabeth was sent to the US who she was became one of those battlefields where she had to resist the enemy. It's really fascinating when you think about it--here's a character who's husband says about her in the first episode that she "doesn't like new things" and she literally is trying to halt her own development throughout. No wonder Claudia focuses on her as the person she's going to stay stuck with. And it's interesting that it isn't Elizabeth's children that get her to start growing, but her husband. I mean, of course she was changed by becoming a mother, but Philip's the one who makes her take risks and think in new ways. On 5/16/2020 at 3:12 AM, Roseanna said: It was very interesting to read in Ben Macintyre's book about Oleg Gordievsky, The spy and the traitor, that none of Gordievsky's collegues in Copenhagen were ideological although unlike him they weren't willing to betray their country. So I suppose Claudia wasn't a typical case. Generally, I think that one of the reasons to the fall of the Soviet Union was that it simply fossilized as the youth wasn't allowed to rebel against the older generation. However heroic Claudia had been during the war, in normal circumstances children (i.e. Elizabeth) would have said in 60ies and 70ies "I want to live my own life and find my own values, not listen to your memories again". Only after some 50 years grandchildren are used to become to interested in war (or immigrant) memories. I think Claudia even implies exactly that when she says she went back to the USSR for a while (during the time MM wasn't on the show regularly). Iirc, she implies that she was pretty estranged from her family--and I got the impression that this was because she couldn't accept them as what Russians were now. Paige, by contrast, was a blank slate that Claudia could use to talk about her past and wouldn't have any opinions of her own. With her own family, too, it's not even just that they don't want to hear about her memories again and again but that she was probably completely dismissive of their own problems in the Russia of the 1980s. Ironically, that's a really classic immigrant thing, I think, that immigrant cultures tend to stay frozen in time while the mother culture moves forward. Philip and Elizabeth probably have a better chance at becoming modern Russians than Claudia. 2 Link to comment
Roseanna May 24, 2020 Share May 24, 2020 Another matter that interested me in The Spy and the Traitor by Ben MacIntyre was that the Kremlin leaders really believed that the US aimed to attack the USSR with nuclear missiles and when that was told to President Reagan due to the information of Oleg Gordievsky, it made a huge impact to him and was (in addition to the movie The day after) the reason why he changed his foreign policy. I think that's a good example how the aim of spying isn't only (perhaps even mostly) to get information in order to damage the opponent's interests, but to understand the other side and how it sees the things, for without that one makes deeds, or also speaks in a way, that are misundertanded and at worst the result can be the opposite than one is aimed. I think that The Americans was very good at showing this aspect of spying, especially in the episode where Reagan was shot. Also, so much as we here have wondered how on earth the Soviets could believe that the US was sabotaging wheat they sold to the USSR, I think that it was perhaps a natural consequence of the paranoid mentality of the Soviets. 3 Link to comment
Milburn Stone May 24, 2020 Share May 24, 2020 I mentioned above that Julia Garner stars in the new movie The Assistant. Since posting that, I've watched it, and highly recommend it. It's a unique and powerful study of a character, a time, and a place, and she's outstanding in it. It can be rented from iTunes and Xfinity on demand. 1 Link to comment
BW Manilowe May 28, 2020 Share May 28, 2020 From The New York Times: In ‘Perry Mason,’ Matthew Rhys Plays Defense A very good article/interview about Matthew’s upcoming gig as the pre-lawyer version of Perry Mason in an 8-episode series on HBO. 2 Link to comment
SunnyBeBe June 8, 2020 Share June 8, 2020 On 5/27/2020 at 8:47 PM, BW Manilowe said: From The New York Times: In ‘Perry Mason,’ Matthew Rhys Plays Defense A very good article/interview about Matthew’s upcoming gig as the pre-lawyer version of Perry Mason in an 8-episode series on HBO. I just saw a preview for Perry Mason. I love Matthew, so, this will be a treat. Spoiler I'm glad he uses an American accent. I'm so used to him with Philip's accent, that it's difficult for me to adjust when he uses his actual one. Link to comment
Loandbehold June 8, 2020 Share June 8, 2020 3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said: I'm so used to him with Philip's accent, that it's difficult for me to adjust when he uses his actual one. That's so true. It was shocking the first time I heard him use his East Texas accent. 1 Link to comment
SunnyBeBe June 8, 2020 Share June 8, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Loandbehold said: That's so true. It was shocking the first time I heard him use his East Texas accent. I had to think about that for a minute...East Texas......on The Americans, right? Back when he and Elizabeth had an assignment? Or was that another state? I wasn't able to find out what state Perry Mason is from. From previews, Matthew's accent as Mason sounds similar to Philip's. I did see this about East Texas connections. https://www.dallasnews.com/arts-entertainment/tv/2018/05/29/all-of-it-surprised-me-actress-keri-russell-says-of-the-series-finale-of-the-americans/ Edited June 8, 2020 by SunnyBeBe Link to comment
Loandbehold June 8, 2020 Share June 8, 2020 SunnyBeBe, I was just having some fun. I was going to say that he realized if he wanted to make it as a lead actor on TV, he couldn't admit that he was from Texas, but had to be from either Great Britain or Australia. He chose a Welsh accent b/c nobody else was doing one. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina June 9, 2020 Share June 9, 2020 I have a confession. One day, while bored, probably sometime after the story of Oleg's mother being in a Gulag aired? I spent all day looking for remains of the Gulags. Google brought up some examples, including a preserved Gulag somewhere in Russia, and many, many, many horrifying tales from both guards like Philip's dad, and prisoners. I posted that wonderful 2-3 hour documentary in (I think) the old "Americans" forum, history section maybe? The prison town where Philip grew up also peaked my interest. Anyway, I started there, and got on Google Earth. I realized that if I followed the train tracks I could often see remnants of the old Gulags, and of course looking for mines and heavily forested areas helped. Some of the buildings still stand, some have been converted into various kinds of housing, and the more I did it, the easier it was to spot them. I remember one place that was just haunting, and I kept looking around that area, and a user posted photo popped up, the remains of a prison wall with graffiti, in Russian of course, denouncing the Gulags. Train tracks are interesting to follow, lots of history there, and sadly, much of it isn't good. I read of several Gulags near China and the Pacific, but I failed to find any remnants in those areas, possibly because not much was available through Google Earth in that area. Apparently, many of those were considered the worst of the worst, and considering how many millions died in the others, that is saying something. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 9, 2020 Share June 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Umbelina said: I have a confession. One day, while bored, probably sometime after the story of Oleg's mother being in a Gulag aired? I spent all day looking for remains of the Gulags. Google brought up some examples, including a preserved Gulag somewhere in Russia, and many, many, many horrifying tales from both guards like Philip's dad, and prisoners. I posted that wonderful 2-3 hour documentary in (I think) the old "Americans" forum, history section maybe? The prison town where Philip grew up also peaked my interest. Anyway, I started there, and got on Google Earth. I realized that if I followed the train tracks I could often see remnants of the old Gulags, and of course looking for mines and heavily forested areas helped. Some of the buildings still stand, some have been converted into various kinds of housing, and the more I did it, the easier it was to spot them. I remember one place that was just haunting, and I kept looking around that area, and a user posted photo popped up, the remains of a prison wall with graffiti, in Russian of course, denouncing the Gulags. Train tracks are interesting to follow, lots of history there, and sadly, much of it isn't good. I read of several Gulags near China and the Pacific, but I failed to find any remnants in those areas, possibly because not much was available through Google Earth in that area. Apparently, many of those were considered the worst of the worst, and considering how many millions died in the others, that is saying something. I watched a documentary a while back about a Gulag that was made for young Russians, basically explaining that if they've ever wondered why the older generation always seemed to have a "keep your head down!" attitude, this is why... One of the things that stuck with me was that it was so cold the road leading to it now had stops along the road for people to duck into and call for help if they were ever stranded because otherwise they'd freeze to death. It really left you wondering how any of these people--none of whom had high tech cold gear like the host--survived. And that's not even touching on the way they were treated in the camp. Just the conditions alone were deadly! One funny story from the video was a bus driver who had driven a group of French tourists there. They found a cat by the side of the road and everyone insisted on stopping to save it from the cold. They wound up taking it to France and still sent the guy pictures of the cat at home in Paris now. The truck driver's takeaway: "I should have been born a fucking cat." 1 1 Link to comment
Umbelina June 9, 2020 Share June 9, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: I watched a documentary a while back about a Gulag that was made for young Russians, basically explaining that if they've ever wondered why the older generation always seemed to have a "keep your head down!" attitude, this is why... One of the things that stuck with me was that it was so cold the road leading to it now had stops along the road for people to duck into and call for help if they were ever stranded because otherwise they'd freeze to death. It really left you wondering how any of these people--none of whom had high tech cold gear like the host--survived. And that's not even touching on the way they were treated in the camp. Just the conditions alone were deadly! One funny story from the video was a bus driver who had driven a group of French tourists there. They found a cat by the side of the road and everyone insisted on stopping to save it from the cold. They wound up taking it to France and still sent the guy pictures of the cat at home in Paris now. The truck driver's takeaway: "I should have been born a fucking cat." Yeah, and whatever clothing they managed to arrive in? Was quickly stolen, especially good boots. It reminded me of Philip's dad showing up with bloody boots. Some were taken and killed immediately, and it made me think Philip's dad was one of those guys, the ones that gunned down the prisoners in a field just a little ways from the prison barracks. The boots were bloody because he took them off someone he'd just killed. In that documentary, they have been given permission to dig up the mass graves in those killing fields to rebury them properly. I may have to go find it. What the men went through was horrific, but it pales to what the women endured. I wish we had a LOT more of Philip's backstory and a lot less of Elizabeth's. Edited June 9, 2020 by Umbelina 1 Link to comment
Roseanna June 9, 2020 Share June 9, 2020 15 hours ago, Umbelina said: Yeah, and whatever clothing they managed to arrive in? Was quickly stolen, especially good boots. It reminded me of Philip's dad showing up with bloody boots. Some were taken and killed immediately, and it made me think Philip's dad was one of those guys, the ones that gunned down the prisoners in a field just a little ways from the prison barracks. The boots were bloody because he took them off someone he'd just killed. Prisoners walked to work and back to the camp escorted by guards who were allowed to shoot without a warning if a prisoner took a step from the rank. A guard could then claim that a prisoner was aiming to flee. A guard who shot a prisoner was rewarded. So there was no wonder that many prisoners were shot. Criminals robbed political and other prisoners of all valuable things, including boots. 16 hours ago, sistermagpie said: One of the things that stuck with me was that it was so cold the road leading to it now had stops along the road for people to duck into and call for help if they were ever stranded because otherwise they'd freeze to death. It really left you wondering how any of these people--none of whom had high tech cold gear like the host--survived. And that's not even touching on the way they were treated in the camp. Just the conditions alone were deadly! There were really deadly camps in the North like Vorkuta and Kolyma where there were mines, but there were camps almost everywhere. The years of great purges 1937-8 and the WW2 were most severe whereas the early 50ies were much better. And some managed to get a job f.ex. in hospitals or kitchen. Link to comment
sistermagpie June 14, 2020 Share June 14, 2020 Just watched Dimebag and this season was so good! No Oleg or Arkady in this one, just Nina starting to work on her incredibly naïve cellmate by faking a nightmare and admitting to her real crime. Back in the States, Stan is still suspicious of Zinaida, even going back to a diner to search the ladies room for dead drops. I had forgotten that Stan kept going to EST as long as he did, because he’s so resistant to it. It’s less surprising that he yells at the EST Leader than that he’s still there at all. Later Stan turns up at Sandra’s house again. (At this point he’s almost like the Stan on The Golden Girls, always showing up at his ex’s door and saying “Hi, it’s me, Stan.”) This time he finally says out loud everything that happened in their marriage. His description of his affair with Nina is probably important in understanding how he still sees things and, imo, how he’s still clinging to the illusion of it. When Sandra walks away he seems to realize his marriage is really over, a fact he’s been denying all episode. Maybe when he realizes Sandra’s gone he of gives up on any real relationship and makes himself vulnerable to somebody like Renee. As Jon Hamm would say about Don Draper, he’d rather paint the house than fix the foundation. Stan’s very good at lying himself about what he’s really doing and why when he wants to be. It’s funny how Zinaida punctures Stan’s reunion fantasies, asking if “separated” means “divorced” (it does) and if Operation EST is helping Stan save his marriage (it isn’t). She does overplay the moment with the candy bar that Stan gives her, tearing it open to eat immediately before ordering her sandwich. Stan’s ability to spot her lies makes him all the more confident that he can’t be fooled, probably. The real drama is at Chez Jennings with a little Kimmy on the side. (Philip, btw, still refers to her as Kimberly at home here even after she’s told him to call her Kimmy.) This is an ep where both Philip and Elizabeth are shown being normal parents in the way they’re accused of not being. Philip helps Henry study for a test, they ask Paige what she wants to do for her birthday and Elizabeth is concerned that her daughter has no friends when she wants the Pastor and his wife for dinner. Jim is another amazing Philip creation, like Clark. From the start he knows how to appear to be genuinely interested in Kimmy as a person, to keep reminding her of his age (so he’s not a guy trying to be younger), and gently mock her lack of experience without ever negging her about it or admitting that she’s not fooling anybody that she’s 18. Julie Garner, no surprise, does a great job. There’s a moment where she starts dancing to Yaz and you can see her trying (and failing) to appear spontaneous and totally comfortable. No surprise she gotten so much work. This show was generally great at casting supporting parts. Oh, that reminds me, this time I noticed that Kimberly’s friend Nicole is played by Dominique Fishback, another great actress who’s gotten more work since this small part. Elizabeth, meanwhile, shows up at Lisa’s house, pretending to be drunk. Watching this ep I realized how rarely I remember the names of Elizabeth’s characters. It’s not that I don’t buy her in her scenes, but I remember her as Elizabeth with Lisa or Elizabeth with Young-Hee. By contrast, Clark and Jim are separate people. It’s not just that Philip has more longterm characters, though he does. In fact, I think it’s the other way around. Philip’s characters being like real people is partly why he’s able to have longterm sources while Elizabeth tends to use people up pretty fast. Her name is Michelle here, and Michelle has a backstory, and a personality different from Elizabeth’s, but she never comes across as anybody other than Elizabeth to me. Jim and Clark are complex from the jump. Speaking of lying, it’s not until this ep where Elizabeth actually admits she’s been grooming Paige. It’s a lot like the scene in Jennings, Elizabeth where Elizabeth just keeps lying even while Paige is telling her she knows she's lying. When Elizabeth finally admits what she’s doing in a righteous rage, she sounds like she thinks it’s as if it’s the other person’s fault she had to lie in the first place. Paige’s birthday dinner turns out to be a set up for the baptism request. The more I watch the church storyline the more it seems like a total dry run of Paige’s spy career, step by step. I think, for instance, that HT is directed to speak very differently about things Paige herself feels to be true vs. things she’s trying to believe in because they connect her to people. It suggests that Paige really does know who she is, even if she sometimes wishes she could be someone else. Paige says it was her idea to get baptized and that’s presumably completely true. But while Pastor Tim isn’t pressuring her to get baptized, he clearly wants it for her and the whole social world Paige wants to be part of at the church would make it attractive. Baptism is even described here as “an initiation”—a word presumably chosen by writers to freak Elizabeth out, but that also underlines what Paige wants from it, full acceptance into a group. When Paige explains that you “wash away your old life and make yourself clean for Jesus Christ” (words that again seem more about Elizabeth’s fears than what someone would say) she sounds more awkward and less passionate than when talking about protesting. Aside from unaware Henry, the only person at the table who isn’t trying to recruit Paige is Philip. Both Elizabeth and Tim see themselves as simply guiding a teenager in a responsible way and in Tim’s case that’s probably accurate a lot of the time, but when Paige starts to bring up the baptism, Tim and Alice clasp hands, knowing the big moment where Paige declares her allegiance to their cause is coming. (It’s creepy.) Elizabeth is probably more invested in “washing away” Paige’s “old life” than Tim, but Tim’s approval at Paige wanting to be baptized wouldn’t be completely different from Elizabeth’s “I’m so proud of you” moments to Paige in S6. Elizabeth will later say she wants Paige to see Tim for “who--or is it what?--he really is,” words that Paige will throw back at Elizabeth. Both Tim and Elizabeth see themselves as helping Paige to figure out who she really is, but they also both already believe they have some knowledge of who that person should be or how she should get there, while Philip's becoming more and more aware of how much he can change a kid’s life by interfering. It’s really brilliant what the show set up with Tim, because the Jennings can dislike him for different reasons, and those reasons reflect their conflict with each other. Elizabeth sees him (and Philip) as offering dangerous alternatives to The Soviet Cause, Philip sees him (and Elizabeth) as trying to hijack her life for themselves. Tim remembers claiming at 20 that he wouldn’t kill and wouldn’t die in Vietnam, which leads to a discussion of Jesus allowing himself to be arrested by Roman guards and saying, “No, let it happen. They’re doing my father’s will.” That sounds like Elizabeth right there—no, let it happen because we’re doing the will of the Centre, while Philip starts to question why things happen yourself. He’s Peter, who wants to fight the guards. (Fittingly, he’s Peter, not Judas.) In fact, Elizabeth practically echoes Jesus’s words when fighting with Philip over his giving Paige a record album, saying of Paige's recruitment by the Centre that, “It is happening. It is just happening.” Elizabeth continues to think the battle is her vs. Tim, her vs. the church, so she fails to see that every weak point Elizabeth spots in Paige’s loyalty to the church and Tim will also apply to Paige’s loyalty to Communism and her handlers. Paige will sound just as wobbly talking about Communism as she does about the spiritual aspects of Christianity. Meanwhile, there’s Philip, who will commit more and more to *not* manipulating Paige, just give her consistent words of encouragement to be herself and find love, and occasional honest disapproval. He clearly detests Tim at the dinner, but at the same time stands by Paige’s decision to do whatever she’s going to do—same as in S6. In this ep, Philip gets her a Yaz album, which Elizabeth correctly sees as a threat. It’s been pointed out to me that in 1982 there’s no way Paige or all her friends at school would have heard of Yaz, but ignoring the mistake and taking the scene as it’s meant, there’s a lot of important stuff in it that contrasts with Tim and Elizabeth. First there’s the fact that Philip is actually is doing what Elizabeth falsely claimed she was doing in the last ep, giving Paige something he thinks she’d like, and he’s right. She’ll continue to wear her cross necklace, but can’t wait to put the album on. Elizabeth is maybe correct to describe the album as a birthday present. Second, Paige notes that Philip usually listens to country music rather than New Wave. Iow, the two of them acknowledge that they have different taste in music and that’s okay. Even Jim and Kimmy have a friendly exchange about music where they both share and approve of each other’s (alleged in Jim’s case) taste. When Paige starts to play the album for Philip, it’s just out of enthusiasm and affection—in contrast to Elizabeth and Claudia’s culture lessons, where the respect only goes one-way. Third and maybe most importantly, the Yaz album links Paige to other kids her age in her culture. Not just Kimmy, but “all the kids at school.” Paige specifically says all her friends have talked about this record when elsewhere in the ep Pastor Tim and Alice were specifically brought up as slightly unhealthy substitutes for friends, as Elizabeth and Claudia will be. In S6 Paige will flat-out say she doesn’t have friends, claiming she can’t because her peers “don’t get” what Elizabeth and Claudia talk about. Claudia’s already told the story of pretending to be friends with a loner who committed suicide when her work with him was over. It’s only Philip who’s encouraging her to make connections to her own place, time and peer group, which is the thing that defines Henry so much in S6 that Philip knows he not only can leave him behind, but must. For most of the show it seems like Philip is completely losing the battle for Paige, that maybe he’s completely stopped fighting for her at all, but I think it more mirrors Elizabeth’s and his general short term vs. long term work. It might not have worked out with Paige quitting, but it did. 2 Link to comment
Roseanna June 16, 2020 Share June 16, 2020 I recently read a memoir of a Finnish girl who came to New York City in 1964. First she was disappointed: the city was ugly, noisy and dirty - not at all like in the pictures. She felt herself slow, she coudn't language and she felt constantly an underdog. But then she realized, “Why come to America to criticize? Why not try to adapt, learn and behave oneself?” I think that an attitude of that kind helped Philip to adapt himself to the American life whereas Elizabeth actively resisted any mental adaption. More than that, I believe that it was Philip who had it easier to adapt back to the Soviet/Russian life whereas Elizabeth, although she now probably very much wanted it, would find it far more difficult because she hadn't experienced the changed that have happened when she was abroad. Philip is an individualist and therefore the collapse of the USSR is far easier to him - he will feel liberated and move on. Instead, to Elizabeth it means that she has lost the secure soil under her feet. She can't live without finding a new one. Therefore she either becomes a devout member of the Greek Orthodox Church or a Russian Nationalist or both. Perhaps most Russians were more like Elizabeth than Philip? Not ideologically (in the end there were only a few that really believed in Communism, although they took the party card for their careers) but that they needed a community to belong and things to be feel pride about (and in the end there was only the WW2). And therefore Philip made an elemental mistake by talking about buying hamburgers in Moscow. It would be nice, but it would never be enough. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 17, 2020 Share June 17, 2020 7 hours ago, Roseanna said: I think that an attitude of that kind helped Philip to adapt himself to the American life whereas Elizabeth actively resisted any mental adaption. More than that, I believe that it was Philip who had it easier to adapt back to the Soviet/Russian life whereas Elizabeth, although she now probably very much wanted it, would find it far more difficult because she hadn't experienced the changed that have happened when she was abroad. I have always thought this as well, when it comes to their transition back to Russia. They will be both have problems, but yes, I think the fact that Elizabeth always clung so hard to the idea that she wanted to be back in Russia, that it was where she belonged and would fit in etc. and like everything, would make it much harder for her to adapt to the real place that had not only changed, but couldn't possibly live up to what she needs from it even if it hadn't. Both Claudia and Gabriel had trouble going back too--though I think where Gabriel gave himself purpose by helping Philip's various connections, Claudia will probably wind up throwing herself into conspiracies to overthrow the more liberal government, ignoring her family. I'd like to think that Elizabeth's experiences at the end of S6 gave her the potential to not retreat back into just another extreme belief system, especially when she's got Philip to lean on and talk to. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina June 17, 2020 Share June 17, 2020 18 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Claudia will probably wind up throwing herself into conspiracies to overthrow the more liberal government, ignoring her family. I think Claudia will make it her life's goal to kill Elizabeth for ruining her plans to save the USSR. Perhaps she will kill her kids and Philip first, to watch Elizabeth suffer before her death. Link to comment
sistermagpie June 18, 2020 Share June 18, 2020 6 hours ago, Umbelina said: I think Claudia will make it her life's goal to kill Elizabeth for ruining her plans to save the USSR. Perhaps she will kill her kids and Philip first, to watch Elizabeth suffer before her death. Weird as it sounds, I feel like Claudia would define herself by not getting sidetracked with personal revenge when she should be focusing on the Cause. She seemed to want to go with a more "I'm not mad, I'm disappointed" reaction to Elizabeth to me. Like, Elizabeth's kids being ordinary Americans is punishment enough. Link to comment
Umbelina June 18, 2020 Share June 18, 2020 4 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Weird as it sounds, I feel like Claudia would define herself by not getting sidetracked with personal revenge when she should be focusing on the Cause. She seemed to want to go with a more "I'm not mad, I'm disappointed" reaction to Elizabeth to me. Like, Elizabeth's kids being ordinary Americans is punishment enough. She's not stupid. It's over, or will be VERY soon. Her plan to save it was derailed by Elizabeth. She WILL make her pay, and I seriously doubt that in Claudia's mind, that will be as simple as death for Elizabeth. Link to comment
Roseanna June 18, 2020 Share June 18, 2020 Continueig about Philip and Elizabeth's return to the USSR: A few years ago I visited in Sillamäe, an Estonian town that was "closed" during the Soviet time because uranium was minded for the Soviet nuclear industry. The town was completely rebuilt after the WW2 and the majority of the inhabitants were Russians brought there with no connection to Estonia. Our guide was the writer Andrei Hvostov who was born of a mixed marriage: his father was from Siberia, his mother was Estonian. In his book Hvostov recalled his childhood in the 1960s and 80s. In the beginning of the book he ponders that if he could take his son on a time travel to the USSR, he would be immediately revealed, not only because of his clothes, but because he is not afraid (Soviet people had been taught to be afraid). This came back to my mind when recently read a interview about a young soccer player. Although her father is from Nigeria, she has been lived in the Finnish community all her life. When she studied in the US, she confused those who sought to compartmentalize her into some preconceived compartment in that social context because she didn't speak or behave like an African American: “I couldn’t behave like that, even if I tried. I wouldn’t know how to behave like white Americans either. Behavior come as you grow." However, when she opened her mouth, it was heard that her accent wasn't American. Then she was treated as a foreigner. Elizabeth and Philip succeeded for years behave like Americans. But would they also immediately succeed to behave like Soviets again? 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 19, 2020 Share June 19, 2020 20 hours ago, Umbelina said: She's not stupid. It's over, or will be VERY soon. Her plan to save it was derailed by Elizabeth. She WILL make her pay, and I seriously doubt that in Claudia's mind, that will be as simple as death for Elizabeth. I realized after I wrote that post that I actually have often pictured Claudia doing something to hit Elizabeth hard, especially if a good opportunity presented itself. Claudia from day one seems to have seen Elizabeth as a younger version of herself so that could play out a lot of different ways when it came to punishing her. She might even hurt her claiming that she was just doing what was necessary to "save" her or something. 17 hours ago, Roseanna said: Elizabeth and Philip succeeded for years behave like Americans. But would they also immediately succeed to behave like Soviets again? I definitely think it would be a bit like when they started to try to pass themselves off as Americans. And where Elizabeth was always determined to see everything as worse in the US she'd feel like she had to say everything was great in the USSR even when she was frustrated. I feel like there's even there a little bit in their last lines when Philip says it feels strange and she says they'll get used to it. He's getting ready to feel whatever he feels and she's determined to reach the goal. But along with the whole situation of getting used to the US at 22 being different, they also have a different relationship with each other so they aren't alone and can admit that they're just not like everyone else there anymore and they'd want to help the other one get over rough patches. 1 Link to comment
Roseanna June 22, 2020 Share June 22, 2020 I have just watched Le bureau des legendes that was quite a hit in Finland during the spring when the libraries, theaters, cinemas, restaurants etc were closed because of the covid-19. It was said to be close to the reality by those with knowledge about the intelligence work. The French serie made me even more wonder things from which we have earlier mostly have astonished me and we have also discussed before, such as: - "There are friends and there are catches. Catches aren't our friends [= you only simulate friendship to them]. You must destroy them if necessary." Yes, Stan was a fool with Nina. - There were different people who made different tasks. If Paige had suited for the intelligence work at all (we know she didn't), why not ask her to become friendly with her fellow students and evaluate their opinions and characters - and then somebody else would have recruited those who were chosen. - The reputation of the intelligence agency can be damaged too much in the open trials. Therefore I believe that Stan made a right choice to let E&P to flee (although it wasn't his motive) and he and Paige could get a deal. - If the task is very important, everything else, including own agents, could be offered to achieve for the goal. Doesn't that mean also that "getting justice" to P&E's offers is less important than the US foreign policy with Gorbatchow? - Elizabeth taught Paige to fight but it's as important not to learn to take blows without being too much hurt when the covert role (f. x. a teacher) demands it. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 24, 2020 Share June 24, 2020 On 6/22/2020 at 8:22 AM, Roseanna said: - "There are friends and there are catches. Catches aren't our friends [= you only simulate friendship to them]. You must destroy them if necessary." Yes, Stan was a fool with Nina. You have to wonder what kind of relationship he thinks he has that it started with him blackmailing somebody into committing a crime that could (and did eventually) get her executed. It's not even like it was just the FBI that did it and Stan is FBI. It was Stan's idea. On 6/22/2020 at 8:22 AM, Roseanna said: - There were different people who made different tasks. If Paige had suited for the intelligence work at all (we know she didn't), why not ask her to become friendly with her fellow students and evaluate their opinions and characters - and then somebody else would have recruited those who were chosen. That would definitely have made more sense and probably what would have been done in that situation. Though of course the character we saw on the show couldn't have done this either, because she had no idea how to spot someone who really might be willing or particularly able. She herself was completely unaware of what she and her parents were doing, so she probably wouldn't even know what to look for. Not to mention she didn't seem that good with people in general. Henry, as usual, seems like he'd be a more obvious choice for the job. On 6/22/2020 at 8:22 AM, Roseanna said: - The reputation of the intelligence agency can be damaged too much in the open trials. Therefore I believe that Stan made a right choice to let E&P to flee (although it wasn't his motive) and he and Paige could get a deal. The FBI would look really bad given Stan's history with them. Adderholt was there at Thanksgiving too. They'd probably be all too willing to sweep it and Stan under the rug. On 6/22/2020 at 8:22 AM, Roseanna said: - If the task is very important, everything else, including own agents, could be offered to achieve for the goal. Doesn't that mean also that "getting justice" to P&E's offers is less important than the US foreign policy with Gorbatchow? The show was pretty consistent, it seems, in keeping Stan totally uninterested in Soviet politics. I've no idea if that's accurate or not--the CIA on the show seemed ready to make those kinds of deals, but this is probably partly what Nina means when she says Stan is a cop at heart. He doesn't want to make decisions about this sort of thing. As he said, he doesn't give a damn who the leader of Russia is, even when it's obviously relevant to US interests. On 6/22/2020 at 8:22 AM, Roseanna said: - Elizabeth taught Paige to fight but it's as important not to learn to take blows without being too much hurt when the covert role (f. x. a teacher) demands it. That seems like it reflects something pretty consistent with Elizabeth's fantasies and desires for Paige. Paige really gets into the job because she's so traumatized by Elizabeth killing that guy (when she already feels vulnerable). We see a lot of the lessons the two of them have and it's all jumping around and getting in little hits. Paige probably improves in part because she becomes so used to Elizabeth's specific moves. But it's hard to imagine, given the way Paige seems to view the job when she's doing it that she'd imagine herself taking hits to keep her cover. Really, we know that for a fact. When that guy puts his hand on her arm as she's walking out of the bar she hits him, then keeps hitting him while he stands there until he goes down, then hits the next guy who touches her arm to ask her if she's okay. She doesn't have the control to take strategic hits. And Elizabeth doesn't really want her to take them, probably. We never see her teaching that, and the lessons began as actual self defense. Link to comment
SunnyBeBe June 29, 2020 Share June 29, 2020 (edited) I just happened to land on a show that has Allison Wright (Martha) in the cast. It’s called Snowpiercer and is on TNT. It looks pretty intense. Edited June 29, 2020 by SunnyBeBe 1 Link to comment
Loandbehold June 29, 2020 Share June 29, 2020 15 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said: I just happened to land on a show that has Allison Wright (Martha) in the cast. It’s called Snowpiercer and is on TNT. It looks pretty intense. And Matt Rhys' Perry Mason show on HBO aired its second episode last night. 1 Link to comment
SunnyBeBe June 29, 2020 Share June 29, 2020 9 minutes ago, Loandbehold said: And Matt Rhys' Perry Mason show on HBO aired its second episode last night. I saw the first episode, but, didn't catch it last night. I intend to follow it. The Perry character just isn't all that intriguing like Philip was. lol Link to comment
Loandbehold June 29, 2020 Share June 29, 2020 Just now, SunnyBeBe said: I saw the first episode, but, didn't catch it last night. I intend to follow it. The Perry character just isn't all that intriguing like Philip was. lol I've never read any of the books, but he does come across here as your donw-on-his-luck hard-boiled 30s private eye. Link to comment
SunnyBeBe June 29, 2020 Share June 29, 2020 I guess it's okay. Maybe, I just have trouble letting go of the character from The Americans. Link to comment
sistermagpie June 29, 2020 Share June 29, 2020 I'm really liking the new Perry Mason. Also recently I saw Once Upon a Time in Hollywood again and realized that Voytek Frykowski, one of the Manson family victims, was played by...Costa Ronin! I should have noticed how he towered over everyone walking into El Coyote! 1 Link to comment
suomi July 4, 2020 Share July 4, 2020 (edited) Some of this information was posted on the first page of this thread but here is another article with today's dateline: Donald Heathfield, like his wife, had been born in a cemetery, a ghost rising from the dead. A baby boy had been born on Feb. 4, 1962, in Canada, the third of four children of Howard and Shirley. Six weeks later, on March 23, Shirley found little Donald lying still, a tiny arm sticking out of the side of his crib. Her child had died. Tracey Lee Ann Foley was born on Sept. 14, 1962, in Montreal, the first child of Edward and Pauline Foley. Seven weeks old and just a few days after she had smiled at her mother for the first time, she developed a fever. Within hours, she died of meningitis. As with the Heathfields, the pain of the loss of a child so young never left the family. But then a quarter of a century later, Heathfield and Foley were suddenly there again, brought back to life by Directorate S. The twin tragedies had not gone unnoticed. A KGB officer serving in Canada had observed them. He would steal something from these two families who had already lost something irreplaceable—their children’s identities. KGB officers had the macabre job of strolling around cemeteries looking at graves for likely candidates, a process known as “tombstoning.” The ideal situation was a child who died away from the country in which they were born, with few close relatives, reducing the documentary and witness trail to the death. Once a candidate was found, the next step might be to destroy any documentary evidence of the death. This could be as simple as bribing someone for access to a church registry book and then ripping out the pages. Then came the key—requesting a new birth certificate (a technique that relied on there being no central registry of births and deaths). “It was considered a big success for us when Department 2 managed to obtain children’s birth certificates after a whole family died in a traffic or other kind of accident,” explains one former member of Directorate S. A birth certificate meant a child could be born again as an illegal. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/meet-the-russian-spies-who-inspired-the-americans/ar-BB16jWL4?li=BBnb7Kz Edited July 4, 2020 by suomi clarity 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 9, 2020 Share July 9, 2020 Just watched Salang Pass, which has always been a favorite of mine because it’s Philip-centric. But Philip-centric things are never straightforward. With Elizabeth you get her thinking about or saying or experiencing something where it’s pretty clear what’s going on, because that’s the type of person she is. But with Philip it’s usually buried pretty deep or you come at it from a different angle, and that’s especially true in this ep where we see Philip in practically all his current incarnations: Clark – Scott – husband – Jim – Dad – friend – quasi son to Gabriel – Mischa. STAN There’s so few times where you can really see how much Stan relies on Philip as a friend instead of just hearing him announce he does so, and the scene in this ep does it really well. Stan seems genuinely open and vulnerable when he admits he doesn’t understand Matthew and expected him to be happier to see him after his time away. Hearing it now you know that Philip is going to be leaving his son too, though we can be pretty sure that if Philip ever reunited with Henry he wouldn’t be so clueless as to think Henry would be simply happy to see him when they reconnected. It shows how he’s so stunted Stan sometimes is--and again, how hard it is to imagine him able to do undercover work. We also know now that Stan’s never going to put in the effort he needs to in order to really fix thing with Matthew, he’ll just distract himself with Henry instead. There’s a lot of nostalgia for early childhood in this ep. Philip and Elizabeth remember tiny Henry and Paige, Stan reminisces about little Matthew, Martha tempts Clark with a fantasy of having a little kid and Kimmy remembers gardening with her father with her little rake. These kinds of memories are powerful, and yet another reason why no, Stan does not become Henry's "real father" by playing with him. Philip’s reaction to Stan is perfect. He doesn’t make Stan feel stupid or get uncomfortably sympathetic, but offers to come along with Stan on his date (by opening his house for dinner) to make it easier for him. This is the first scene where I can really see why Stan would love Philip as a friend even over Adderholt that he works with all the time. Too bad there’s not more scenes like this. If there was I would buy Stan’s decision more, even if they want it to be about the whole family instead of just Philip. KIMMY I couldn’t help but wonder exactly why Kimmy asks Jim to meet her at the teen hang-out. She’s been claiming she’s a Georgetown student—did she not realize how obvious it would be here that she was in high school? Was it a passive way of revealing that to Jim. If so, why? Did she want to be liked as herself? Was she conflicted about whether she really wanted to go forward? Maybe she just didn’t think it through, because she’s not actually duplicitous and she really is very young and naive. There's a great moment for her in that vein when she starts talking about her stepmother and dad never being home that she obviously relishes getting to vent about it, then catches herself and playfully accuses Jim of bogarting the joint she's not all that interested in. Some found her sexual aggressiveness reminiscent of someone who was sexually abused, but to me it seems like the opposite—it’s aggressive and innocent at the same time. Jim, of course, plays this all perfectly, walking away from Kimmy when he “discovers” that she’s only 15, but then playing like she’s so charming he can’t do it! Kimmy laughs at the cowboy boots Jim/Philip for some reason chooses to wear, just like Paige did in the pilot. On one hand it links the two girls yet again, but it also kind of shows Philip bringing a bit of himself to this character, with whom he’ll come to have a relationship in S6 that's more like the one he has Henry than Paige. That is, she’ll be a kid who seems to have matured in such a way that she interacts with him like an adult with an adult relative. Kimmy’s also the main connection to regular teenage life we have for most of the show, and it’s Philip who hangs out with her not any of the kid characters. It’s not uncommon for victims of abuse to only begin to understand how they were manipulated when looking at young people and seeing how vulnerable they are. ELIZABETH It occurred to me in this ep that Elizabeth just destroys families throughout the show (while Philip manages to bring a few together). Here she’s working on getting Lisa and her kids set up in a nice new place but we know Elizabeth isn’t going to think much about Lisa’s kids when she murders her. Also here you can see the pattern of Elizabeth being the go-to for shorter assignments—she’s moving Lisa into position really fast but she’ll burn her out fast too. I wonder if she killed the dog she used after dropping the car on the guy. Can’t have any witnesses! But Elizabeth is vulnerable in this ep too. She’s not happy with how not unhappy Philip is thinking about having a kid with Martha. In the last scene she’s dressed in uncharacteristic pale pink and sitting in the same chair where Philip was earlier brooding, her legs drawn up like a little kid. This is where Philip talks about learning to “make it real” with people in sex training. Elizabeth says the sex work must be different for a man, and certainly Philip’s approach is very different from hers. Elizabeth usually has contempt for the men she sleeps with to give herself power. When she has an unwanted physical reaction to a man, she gets very upset. She will eventually tell Philip she can’t like the people she works with that way. That’s why she goes to the opposite of extreme of Philip in S6 when she’s cracking. Elizabeth more often strangles her softer feelings, so no wonder she gets insecure about the idea that Philip does the opposite, opening himself to people he doesn’t love. Another thing that seems more important now is Elizabeth’s reaction to the idea of Martha having a kid. It’s a big part of Elizabeth’s story that she didn't want children and she’s already starting to be aggressively haunted by that fact on the way back to Russia in START. I think she always has been since the kids were born. So Martha wanting children is already a threat, whether or not she has them. PHILIP But really, it’s Philip’s ep and there’s a lot going on with him. Again, he’s got children coming and going. His face visibly softens when Martha describes coming home to a young child the way he used to come home to his kids and softens again in response to Kimmy's story about the two rakes with her dad. He wistfully brings up the kids’ childhoods to Elizabeth. Btw, I think one reason he might remember Paige as graceful when she was a klutz is that he associates her so much with Elizabeth, just as Elizabeth sees Philip reflected in Henry and herself in Paige. On first airing there was some discussion about why the ep is named after the recent but not current Salang Pass explosion in Afghanistan, but on re-watch it’s more clear. With all the kids dancing around in this ep, it’s the kid never mentioned who’s at the center: Mischa Jr. Philip actually listens to what Yousef is saying about Pakistan and Afghanistan, which Elizabeth really wouldn’t. That’s what sends him home to listen to the radio. The volcano documentary he watches with Kimmy also subtly reminds us of it—it’s the thing motivating Philip to be here. He just can’t say it. He hasn’t spoken of his maybe son since he saw Irina, but he's thought about him. (Another reflection of Stan.) We see Philip dealing with one person after another: Martha, Yousef, Elizabeth, Paige, Stan, Gabriel, Kimmy, and with most of them—Elizabeth mostly excluded—he’s doing some form of caretaking and being the person somebody else needs him to be. He’s dragged to the foster care place by Martha, gets guilted by Gabriel, buys a dress to support Paige, helps Stan with his love life and befriends Kimmy. The only time he’s really being just himself is with Elizabeth. Then there’s the last scene, memorable for Philip’s flashbacks to sex training. As Elizabeth says, it’s a different job for him. Where she can feel some control with sex work, Philip has to “find it in his mind somewhere” and “make it real,” training himself into be open to everyone. (He even comes home high, having needed to smoke with Kimmy.) His flashbacks even emphasize this in that the camera is over young Mischa/Philip’s shoulder, making him a faceless placeholder. What we see are the parade of people he’s with, starting with the first sex worker waiting inside the door and ending with the guy coming through a similar door where Mischa/Philip (or just Mischa at this point) is waiting, having switched places. Even in his flashbacks the audience gets only the impression of *their* faces and bodies, needs and reactions. When Baklanov told Philip that whoever he once was they trained out of him in The Deal, he meant he was a monster, but this is even more directly training the person he actually is out of him. The ep ends with Philip ending his long day by confirming that there with Elizabeth he’s not making it real, he doesn’t have to. I’ve always associated this ep with S2’s The Deal, not just because they’re both so Philip-centric but because being so, they emphasize similar things. Where The Deal showed that Philip had disassociated himself from his real memories, home and identity, Salang Pass shows how he lives instead through different characters created for other people. It’s going to take him a while to reconstruct who he actually is, but there’s a real logic to him needing to reach back to the past to do it. Elizabeth is, I think, a catalyst for his changing and remains a touchstone, but she’s not the center of his identity. In fact, she’s going to be learning on him when the foundations of her own identity start to crumble. 4 Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo July 14, 2020 Share July 14, 2020 According to this announcement, PBS will be airing The King and I (2018) with Kelli O'Hara, Ruthie Ann Miles (who won a Tony for this role), and Ken Watanabe on 8/21. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 7, 2020 Share August 7, 2020 Just watched Born Again. This isn’t an ep I think about a lot but on re-watch I apparently have a lot to say. HANS Hans gets another training scene to give him a place to tell Elizabeth about a suspicious kid in his anti-apartheid group. Unlike when Paige tells Elizabeth about the intern she’s met, Hans’s information is worth looking into and motivated completely by the work. Since Hans is expected to remember license plates he saw driving around, it’s definitely serious when Paige makes two mistakes in one name she’s had enough time to study. STAN Matthew notes how clueless his dad is that his marriage is over. Matthew is his mother’s son. Stan a couple of eps ago: Fooling people is easy. Stan in this ep: Of course you can tell I don’t really want to sleep with you, half-dressed woman in my lap, we’re in a house where my wife lived once! MARTHA Adderholt removes the files from the mail robot just as Martha has started to want them there. That’s a nice way of showing how far Martha’s drifted. ELIZABETH When Gabriel calls Elizabeth out on not moving forward with Paige, she might be realizing that she *has* been letting Philip hold her back (as Gabriel suggested), but I think Elizabeth uses Philip as a shield in this. She’s happy telling herself she’s recruiting Paige by arguing with Philip about it. That way she stays in limbo where she’s committed to this decisive action but never has to pull the trigger. It’s only fitting that when Elizabeth does make a move on Paige in this ep, she leads with Gregory, who is so connected to non-Mother Elizabeth, even though Elizabeth is herself very insecure about Kimberly throughout the ep. She probably sees Gregory as the role model of a loyal Soviet American without thinking about where that got him. Elizabeth’s cigarettes will be one of the biggest smoking guns for Stan in S6. Here Paige reveals that she and Henry both know that Elizabeth smokes, which Philip earlier warned her about and will again mention in S6. Smoking ties her to Gregory (and all he represents) who comes up in this ep and is a subject about which she dangerously lacks self-awareness, even when warned about it. (Btw, MR is much better at smoking than KR, see Perry Mason.) Elizabeth and Philip both express admiration for Paige in this ep. Philip uses it to encourage her independence while Elizabeth sees it as proof she’s now old enough to do the right thing, iow, be exploited. PHILIP Elizabeth and Philip getting high is a nice contrast to Jim’s smoking w/Kimmy or Elizabeth smoking pot w/Gregory. It’s like they get to be teenagers innocently sneaking a joint in their bedroom for fun, something they never got a chance to be and only really ever get to be with each other. At dinner Philip tries to explain EST to Henry and it made me realize that while Elizabeth will try to white-knuckle her transition to the USSR, Philip spends years preparing to process uncomfortable emotions in EST. They’re both literally doing those things in their last exchange. They’ll be good for each other. BTW, Henry’s questions about EST are kind of hilarious. He demands to know what kind of problems adults bring there even after Tori just told him her problem. What more do you want? This ep is the first time both Elizabeth and Philip try to talk to Paige about the secret. Philip’s gotten criticism for not telling Paige the truth about the dirty parts of their job in S6 to scare her away, but while that’s valid, it also suggests that Paige is a good fit except for those things about which she somehow doesn’t have a clue. But what Philip warns her about doing in this scene is the real issue and exactly what she’s going to do: stop being her own person and let someone who wants what’s best for her and to whom she’s important get her to do things that aren’t right for her. I think that’s why she gets snottier to Philip as S6 goes on and she gets closer to quitting—when he looks at her, she sees him seeing through her. She’s clueless about the dirtier parts of the job because she’s chosen to be willfully ignorant, just as Martha does. When it’s no longer worth it, she stops being ignorant. I’ve always loved in this ep how Elizabeth and Paige both get two baptism imagery scenes and then Philip specifically refuses to take a bath with Kimmy. Pastor Tim describes baptism as Paige’s “most radical act” and that’s a standard Christian thing to say, but he’s still talking about joining a mainstream US church. That made me think how much importance this show puts on small radical acts rather than big public ones. Scenes where the person is both consciously taking a risk and doing something they would once never have done, like Oleg giving up William. In fact, if I was thinking of the act that played as the most shocking to the audience, it would be Philip warning Kimmy. PAIGE Really, this ep is about Paige. We start off with the baptism, placed in the teaser to undercut its importance, since the ceremony is only worth as much as Paige already believes or doesn’t. There’s a question of whether it’s appropriate for Pastor Tim to bring politics into a baptism, but I think he adjusts the ceremony to celebrate each specific person in a Christian context. Activism=faith in action. Choir singing would be joyful noise. The writers know they’re moving towards Paige working with Elizabeth so any faith she has has to be dealt with later. So they choose, imo, to make it clear that the “spiritual part” is always an ill-fit. That’s really clear the one time Paige explicitly talks about it. Her pedantic correction of Philip’s reference to her beliefs as “faith” and dinnertime defense of the church against unnamed critics is a bit of a contrast to her hesitant endorsement of prayer in the garage with her Mom. First, it’s more foreshadowing, imo, that Paige thanks Elizabeth for supporting her church life (when she’s doing the opposite) and then asks her what she really thinks about church. It’s a little reminiscent of their last fight when Paige also asks Elizabeth to come clean because she knows she’s not being truthful. On first watch I was never sure why Paige only talks to Elizabeth about this. Like when Philip asks if she feels different she doesn’t take an opportunity to proselytize. But this time I noticed how very explicitly the show parallels the Paige/ Elizabeth scenes in it with the Jim/Kimmy ones. The prayer convo is paralleled with Jim faking Christian conversion to put off sleeping with Kimmy. In that scene, Kimmy begs Jim to tell her if she’s doing something wrong. She’s completely vulnerable and desperate for this adult’s approval. That, I think, informs the Paige scene as well. Elizabeth genuinely struggles to support the kids “no matter what.” So it makes sense that Paige would have more need for Elizabeth to approve of praying. There’s no one right or wrong way to talk about prayer, but in my surprisingly extensive experience talking to US Christians about prayer, I see something glaringly absent from Paige’s description: God. God as an entity that exists as a fact. She says praying is “scary at first—not scary, it’s kind of silly, like you’re talking to yourself but after a while you feel something...I don’t know...a presence. It helps.” It sounds more like she’s describing an exercise that helps by making you feel a presence rather than encouraging Elizabeth to talk to a God who, to her as a Christian, is there whether or not she’s feeling his presence. It’s the one time Paige herself is describing her prayer life and she avoids talking about God, which even as a non-religious American would not be a weird thing to do. That’s got to be a writing choice. I feel like her relationship to Russia is similarly defined by its absence. Does she ever volunteer even a comment about it as a country that exists and with which she has any connection? I honestly don’t think she does. She only seems to invoke its name in horror. The end of this ep made me also note something else. So much of this show is about people living in different realities, seeing what they need to see, and the actors have to show us those povs through really specific choices. I used to think that the moment where Paige learns the secret was the moment the role really got away from the actor, but you can see the problem already, imo, particularly in the last scene of this ep where Elizabeth takes Paige to Gregory’s old neighborhood. Like, if you think of the story from Paige’s pov, there’s a lot going on in this scene that she’d be reacting to, a whole emotional logic that shifts throughout. But it’s not there, imo. She’s mostly playing Paige’s nervousness about the neighborhood, though if a line calls for an obvious reading something’s there. At the end, her expression seems meant to project that she’s conflicted with nothing really to go on for specifics. (We’ll see variations of this face a lot over the next three seasons. A lot.) I feel like there’s a lot of choices inherent in the dialogue that didn’t get made in the actor’s mind. (The convo also made me think back on the earlier scene where Paige asks Elizabeth if Philip might be having an affair with no sense of the implications to the mother/daughter relationship in that question.) I think this is a big part of why people often describe Paige as boring or nonsensical or dumb. It’s not just that her side of the scene’s mushy compared to Elizabeth’s, it’s that it feels like there’s no coherent whole person linking her scenes together. Like if you think of that whole opening convo about Gregory and everything Paige has been about up until now, there’s a lot there for her besides being a mildly confused landmine Elizabeth’s deliberately dancing around. And this stuff, we now know, is ultimately central to Paige’s whole arc. It doesn’t help that this scene, again, is juxtaposed with Julie Garner as Kimmy who does have an emotional logic. When Jim meets her after school and her manner is way different than it was the scene before, I believe the actress knows how Kimmy got from one place to another. She also has a great moment with Jim where she hugs him with this perfect note of theatricality; you can see a teenager consciously throwing herself into the role of Mature Woman Savior of a Troubled Man. And once it happens, you stop waiting for her to make another pass at him. 1 2 Link to comment
VCRTracking August 7, 2020 Share August 7, 2020 (edited) Matthew does a FANTASTIC Richard Burton impression at four minutes. Edited August 7, 2020 by VCRTracking 1 1 Link to comment
Umbelina August 9, 2020 Share August 9, 2020 On 8/6/2020 at 9:37 PM, sistermagpie said: Like, if you think of the story from Paige’s pov, there’s a lot going on in this scene that she’d be reacting to, a whole emotional logic that shifts throughout. But it’s not there, imo. She’s mostly playing Paige’s nervousness about the neighborhood, though if a line calls for an obvious reading something’s there. At the end, her expression seems meant to project that she’s conflicted with nothing really to go on for specifics. (We’ll see variations of this face a lot over the next three seasons. A lot.) I feel like there’s a lot of choices inherent in the dialogue that didn’t get made in the actor’s mind. (The convo also made me think back on the earlier scene where Paige asks Elizabeth if Philip might be having an affair with no sense of the implications to the mother/daughter relationship in that question.) She was simply miscast in this role. She might do romantic comedy better, but the actress (from interviews) seemed naive and clueless. I'm specifically thinking of the interview she did after being told of her KGB future. It was all, "YAY! I'll get to do such cool stuff, and fight and be sneaky and all that!" Which, hello? No hun, that was never the idea. The idea was the deep conflicts this should have brought to a nuanced actor, conflicts about treason, conflicts about how truly awful the USSR was for the average citizen, conflicts about using sex for information (which the show got to, but the pay off could have been SO much more impactful and great.) Basically, Paige's motivations and conflicts were much too complex for Holly Taylor to grasp, and her limited acting abilities worsened that dynamic. On 8/6/2020 at 9:37 PM, sistermagpie said: The end of this ep made me also note something else. So much of this show is about people living in different realities, seeing what they need to see, and the actors have to show us those povs through really specific choices. I used to think that the moment where Paige learns the secret was the moment the role really got away from the actor, but you can see the problem already, imo, particularly in the last scene of this ep where Elizabeth takes Paige to Gregory’s old neighborhood. On 8/6/2020 at 9:37 PM, sistermagpie said: I think this is a big part of why people often describe Paige as boring or nonsensical or dumb. It’s not just that her side of the scene’s mushy compared to Elizabeth’s, it’s that it feels like there’s no coherent whole person linking her scenes together. Like if you think of that whole opening convo about Gregory and everything Paige has been about up until now, there’s a lot there for her besides being a mildly confused landmine Elizabeth’s deliberately dancing around. And this stuff, we now know, is ultimately central to Paige’s whole arc. It doesn’t help that this scene, again, is juxtaposed with Julie Garner as Kimmy who does have an emotional logic. When Jim meets her after school and her manner is way different than it was the scene before, I believe the actress knows how Kimmy got from one place to another. She also has a great moment with Jim where she hugs him with this perfect note of theatricality; you can see a teenager consciously throwing herself into the role of Mature Woman Savior of a Troubled Man. And once it happens, you stop waiting for her to make another pass at him. Yeah, I agree, especially the first bolded part. The biggest issue the show had was that the writers were writing for outstanding actors, and they seemed to rely quite a bit on those actors bringing all the nuance into the various storylines, but they massively failed by expecting that from a very basic/mediocre actress. Holly Taylor wasn't even in the other actors on this show's zipcode. I'm not trying to (again, some more) rail on Holly, but honestly, she was not up to the task of basically carrying the main story for several seasons. I wish the writers had the sense to rethink their story, OR the way it was presented, so Holly focused simply did not work. Not in a cast as outstanding as this one. Second bold: exactly. She simply did not have the skills, and I think her interviews showed her immaturity and lack of any kind of grasp on the character of Paige, or even a basic real grasp of what it meant to be a KGB spy. They also were all over the place about her character, supposedly so very very smart, yet repeatedly showing not even the slightest initiative to read up on the KGB. Or investigate what life was like for average people in the USSR, which, frankly, was EVERYWHERE. It wouldn't have taken much "research" to learn about bread lines and lack of everything for anyone but the elite. It simply did not hold together. In the final season, when they apparently gave up and showed Paige to be the idiot she really was, the naive Holly, it began to work better, but too little too late. Third bold. Julie Garner can actually ACT, proven by her awards and nominations since. She was able to go toe to toe with Mathew Rhees, and not because it was better writing, but because she actually COULD act, and do it well. I never felt a single false note with her. Sigh, imagine if she had been cast at Paige? We would be having a very different conversation about that character, and the emotional impact the writers were obviously going for would have consistently landed. Same words, same script, but one can act and the other could not. Just an aside from me. I think they should have switched the story up when they realized how horribly it wasn't working with Paige as the center of it all. Maybe switch it to Henry being recruited? They wanted this to be about Elizabeth though, from the jump, so they were stuck with Holly. 1 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 10, 2020 Share August 10, 2020 5 hours ago, Umbelina said: She was simply miscast in this role. She might do romantic comedy better, but the actress (from interviews) seemed naive and clueless. I'm specifically thinking of the interview she did after being told of her KGB future. It was all, "YAY! I'll get to do such cool stuff, and fight and be sneaky and all that!" Which, hello? No hun, that was never the idea. The idea was the deep conflicts this should have brought to a nuanced actor, conflicts about treason, conflicts about how truly awful the USSR was for the average citizen, conflicts about using sex for information (which the show got to, but the pay off could have been SO much more impactful and great.) I can totally forgive her for, as an actress, for saying she was thrilled that she got to jump into the wig-part of the show in an interview, unfortunately it really didn't seem like she got how that stuff was being deconstructed. (I mean, beyond knowing that Paige herself isn't having fun on the job.) I get the impression she thought Paige was an expert on USSR history, having received practically a PhD via her mom and Claudia and so understood exactly what she was doing and he was right to think it was a fine idea. She doesn't honestly play Paige as being conflicted about anything at all except for when the script has her angry at Elizabeth for criticizing her performance. And I wouldn't be surprised if she thought Paige was actually succeeding at the job, replacing another source of tension with the Dunning-Kreuger Effect. 5 hours ago, Umbelina said: Basically, Paige's motivations and conflicts were much too complex for Holly Taylor to grasp, and her limited acting abilities worsened that dynamic. Yeah, I agree, especially the first bolded part. The biggest issue the show had was that the writers were writing for outstanding actors, and they seemed to rely quite a bit on those actors bringing all the nuance into the various storylines, but they massively failed by expecting that from a very basic/mediocre actress. Holly Taylor wasn't even in the other actors on this show's zipcode. I'm not trying to (again, some more) rail on Holly, but honestly, she was not up to the task of basically carrying the main story for several seasons. I wish the writers had the sense to rethink their story, OR the way it was presented, so Holly focused simply did not work. Not in a cast as outstanding as this one. On re-watch, I can see how the writing is meant to have actors doing a lot with the script. Not making things up that aren't there, but shaping the character and putting across the reality that character lives in and why. No wonder they use so many theater people. They're good at breaking down a script beat by beat, playing what the characters wants etc. Granted, that's a skill that's probably unlikely in somebody really young, so you have to hope they have an amazing instinct about the character. And so now with Paige, maybe knowing where it's going makes it so clear, but I'm feeling like there actually is a lot of stuff in the script that gives Paige more direction, but when you have somebody only playing the surface of every scene it just seems like she's all over the place. I haven't re-watched S6 since it aired, but I now feel like I see an arc for her that didn't come across to me at the time. 5 hours ago, Umbelina said: Second bold: exactly. She simply did not have the skills, and I think her interviews showed her immaturity and lack of any kind of grasp on the character of Paige, or even a basic real grasp of what it meant to be a KGB spy. They also were all over the place about her character, supposedly so very very smart, yet repeatedly showing not even the slightest initiative to read up on the KGB. Or investigate what life was like for average people in the USSR, which, frankly, was EVERYWHERE. It wouldn't have taken much "research" to learn about bread lines and lack of everything for anyone but the elite. It simply did not hold together. In the final season, when they apparently gave up and showed Paige to be the idiot she really was, the naive Holly, it began to work better, but too little too late. Yes, because it always seems like Paige feels whatever she's expressing in the lines you assume she just means what she says from one scene from the next. It doesn't come across like she's in denial or trying not to think about this stuff, but just as if she isn't aware these things exist. So instead of seeing somebody like Martha who's living in a precarious, dangerous fantasy world that she's furiously justifying to herself you just find yourself not understanding how she's so clueless. I suspect, for instance, that Alison Wright sees Martha as "testing" Clark's story when she does things like asking him to meet her parents and "proving" that she believes him by taking the lead in bringing home files etc. It makes her story compelling as you wait for it to fall apart. But with Paige it doesn't seem like there's anything much at stake because she doesn't seem to think or know there is. It's fine for Paige to be naive to a degree--that fits with her experience. But she doesn't just seem unconcerned about the geopolitical and legal issues, but the moral/personal/psychological ones as well. Not only is there no pen moment for Paige, there's no possibility of one. 5 hours ago, Umbelina said: Third bold. Julie Garner can actually ACT, proven by her awards and nominations since. She was able to go toe to toe with Mathew Rhees, and not because it was better writing, but because she actually COULD act, and do it well. I never felt a single false note with her. Sigh, imagine if she had been cast at Paige? We would be having a very different conversation about that character, and the emotional impact the writers were obviously going for would have consistently landed. Same words, same script, but one can act and the other could not. Yeah, in that last scene in this ep you can see Elizabeth (that is, KR) doing different things in the scene, shifting her approach, getting more emotional as she gets closer to the truth. But imagine how different the scene would be if Paige had her own thing she was pursuing in the scene. Like we know Paige is moving towards confronting her parents. She's explicitly showed suspicion for over a season. She feels like her parents have a secret, something's going on she doesn't know about, she brings up the possibilities of affairs. That scene for Paige could play as, "OMG, Mom's going to leave Dad and she's telling me about a secret lover..." and then shift to "Holy shit, are Mom and Dad are 60s radicals on the lam!?" and then "Oh, crap, Mom's not going to tell me anything, she's just criticizing me for not being an activist her way." Or whatever. Not that it has to be like that, but it would make more sense than her just vaguely and unhappily not understanding what Mom's talking about. She's amazingly low energy for what's going on in this scene. Even the clear direction to play nervous about the neighborhood, instead of adding more tension to the scene simply becomes a reason to not give Elizabeth her full attention 5 hours ago, Umbelina said: Just an aside from me. I think they should have switched the story up when they realized how horribly it wasn't working with Paige as the center of it all. Maybe switch it to Henry being recruited? They wanted this to be about Elizabeth though, from the jump, so they were stuck with Holly. It's hard to even imagine since it really seems like they had the arc from the start. Like Elizabeth said, Henry could take care of himself; Paige was vulnerable. They both attracted attention the way one of their parents did--for Henry it was school, with Paige it was searching for something to shape her life. No surprise why Elizabeth herself saw Paige as a soft target. She didn't understand Henry enough to even try to recruit him and Philip never would. 3 Link to comment
Umbelina August 10, 2020 Share August 10, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, sistermagpie said: It's hard to even imagine since it really seems like they had the arc from the start. Like Elizabeth said, Henry could take care of himself; Paige was vulnerable. They both attracted attention the way one of their parents did--for Henry it was school, with Paige it was searching for something to shape her life. No surprise why Elizabeth herself saw Paige as a soft target. She didn't understand Henry enough to even try to recruit him and Philip never would. I don't remember now, but I used to know, seems like it was between the end of the first season and the middle of the 2nd when they decided on that arc. Holly was still young enough that I think they thought she would grow into the complexities of what they planned for the character, or perhaps that Kerry and Mathew's skill would somehow transfer to her by osmosis, or just that Kerry and Mathew could save the scenes with their sheer talent and nuance? It was obvious the focus of the show was Elizabeth's story though, by the last two seasons it was painfully obvious. Her story was completely painted in technicolor, while Mathews was pencil sketched in. To the writers, that meant doing a mini-me catastrophic and I'm sure they were going for touching/meaningful/sacrifice/consequences/devastating Liz/Paige story. <sigh> at what could have been... Their big pay off was Liz losing Paige at the end, and that was supposed to be some kind of justice for all Liz had done throughout the series, her "payback." What I seriously don't understand though? Is why they stuck with that, in the way they did, when it was obvious it wasn't working? It was like they were sitting at the blackjack table, losing hand after hand, but refused to get up and leave, or at least try another table, or a different game. I'm sure they liked Holly Taylor quite a bit, but DAMN! As you pointed out well, she always played the obvious or the script, and her only attempt at nuance was in those same "looks" or the whiny or louder voice. She was either mad, or hurt, or confused, or happy, or loving....but never any combination of those or the other complex emotions most of her scenes should have had, or would have had in another actress's hands and face and body. I really think it was because Holly had no concept of the overall character, not really, she only played the scenes, never the full person. "Oh I'm scared in this neighborhood" as you pointed out, but the examples are endless. There were one or two moments where she was a bit better, but probably because the scenes called for very obvious emotions? The scene with Henry after he "had an accident" after saving both of their lives, the scene in the bar when she was flirting with guys (before the fight) felt real to me, probably because it was the most like Holly in real life. Even her "best" scene though, the fighting with Mathew in the apartment, was a pretty straightforward scene for her, and she did fine. If you really look at it though, it's because Rhees carried that scene, and acted the hell out of it. 13 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Yeah, in that last scene in this ep you can see Elizabeth (that is, KR) doing different things in the scene, shifting her approach, getting more emotional as she gets closer to the truth. But imagine how different the scene would be if Paige had her own thing she was pursuing in the scene. Like we know Paige is moving towards confronting her parents. She's explicitly showed suspicion for over a season. She feels like her parents have a secret, something's going on she doesn't know about, she brings up the possibilities of affairs. That scene for Paige could play as, "OMG, Mom's going to leave Dad and she's telling me about a secret lover..." and then shift to "Holy shit, are Mom and Dad are 60s radicals on the lam!?" and then "Oh, crap, Mom's not going to tell me anything, she's just criticizing me for not being an activist her way." Or whatever. Not that it has to be like that, but it would make more sense than her just vaguely and unhappily not understanding what Mom's talking about. She's amazingly low energy for what's going on in this scene. Even the clear direction to play nervous about the neighborhood, instead of adding more tension to the scene simply becomes a reason to not give Elizabeth her full attention Very good example of what I'm trying to say. In real life, people have layers of reactions, history, emotions during most moments of their lives, but especially in memorable moments like that. That's the part of acting Holly Taylor never quite seemed to grasp, let along bring...the layers. The scared part should have been underlying, not the focus of those scenes, her trying to master the "scared" while playing other beats. Kind of like when actors say it's more powerful to fight the tears, instead of just blubber all over the place immediately. 13 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I can totally forgive her for, as an actress, for saying she was thrilled that she got to jump into the wig-part of the show in an interview, unfortunately it really didn't seem like she got how that stuff was being deconstructed. (I mean, beyond knowing that Paige herself isn't having fun on the job.) I get the impression she thought Paige was an expert on USSR history, having received practically a PhD via her mom and Claudia and so understood exactly what she was doing and he was right to think it was a fine idea. She doesn't honestly play Paige as being conflicted about anything at all except for when the script has her angry at Elizabeth for criticizing her performance. And I wouldn't be surprised if she thought Paige was actually succeeding at the job, replacing another source of tension with the Dunning-Kreuger Effect. I'm not mad at Holly Taylor at all. I just don't think she was personally as mature as the writers kept insisting Paige was (until they finally gave it all up at the end, in season six, and let Paige's idiot and incompetent flags fly.) That was the point where Holly's acting at least didn't ruin scenes, because it was truer to Holly's real self, and less of a reach for her in acting. That said, the writers did the character no favors either. You can't keep cramming it down the viewers throats how mature and smart she is, and they did that for YEARS in dialogue from her parents, and then watch her show complete cluelessness in just about every scene (talking pre season six here.) Showing Paige drinking vodka and being indoctrinated by two extraordinary actresses, in some fun scenes which did camouflage Holly's lack of skills, or rather, didn't ask much of her other than wide eyed or drunk reactions? Still wasn't enough for this supposedly smart girl surrounded by TV documentaries showing the true conditions in the USSR all the time. THEN they make her a college student, and still, she doesn't seem to grasp that she's betraying her own country for a country that is a complete mess, and just as, if not more corrupt, than the country she's betraying. Huh? So that part I blame on the writers, although, I will say, in more skilled hands, the character of Paige could have played much of that in looks and ticks during other conversations. However, Holly could only play what was on the page, and even then, one emotion at a time. Arrgh. ---- To be very clear here, I'm not blaming Holly Taylor, I'm blaming the writers. You don't double down when losing. You can't base your entire ending/wrap up of a complicated and incredible show with such a childish and simplistic pay off, IMO. The big pay back for all the murders, and all the self delusion of Elizabeth about her country and any of this being worth it, is losing your kids? Big whoop. Honestly, big whoop, but especially when one of those kids is the idiot Paige. Don't get me wrong, Kerry sold the fuck out of that scene on the train, and Paige didn't ruin it, because she had no dialogue, just stand there and look forlorn/resigned and let the music swell. It did work, but only as a PART of the finale/wrap up. It wasn't enough to carry the rest of the ending of the show. Music for ages, and the writers were not writing in a vacuum. We, or most of us know, the real life issues in this story, that the USSR was not worth fighting for or even going to last a few more years. That Elizabeth had pissed off powerful people in a rapidly failing and disintegrating country, and that she herself would be viewed by loyalists and patriots there (like Claudia, the Generals, and other powerful people alluded to in the scripts) as SOMEONE WHO HASTENED THE END OF THE COUNTRY. I mean, seriously, and I've said it all before, but to paint over this incredibly bleak ending for all of the characters with music and this stupid rom/com look out over Moscow by Rhees and Russell is beyond insulting to me. All of their lives are ruined, from Stan's, to the kids', to whatever time left "The Jennings" have as they try to survive in the hell of the ruin of a nation, oh, and add in powerful enemies out for blood. It's just not enough writers, music for the entire ending? Seriously? Fuck off. Edited August 10, 2020 by Umbelina typo 1 Link to comment
Umbelina August 10, 2020 Share August 10, 2020 Stuff that would or could have made it better for me: Pay off Stan and the new wife, show his consequences for treason, it wouldn't take much, take him off in handcuffs, and let the music the writers were so relying on for their finale tell the tale. Show the wife communicating with the KGB about new plans, since the Stan thing was blown. Let the Jennings talk during that long travel. What a cop out to make it all silent. Better yet, bag that whole ending and never send them back to the USSR at all. Let Phillip "win" for once, and turn themselves in to the USA, cut a deal, save Stan, and be able to see their children again, or at least not ruin Stan and the kids' lives forever. OR, have Phillip finally stand up to Elizabeth, and let THAT be their big loss/payoff for all the murders and dastardly deeds they've done. Elizabeth returns to the nearly-over USSR herself, but Phillip stays in the USA, saving Stan and the kids. Phillip and Elizabeth losing each other, their great loves, would be far more impactful to me than anything else, and allow hope for Stan and the kids. IF this was going to be the ending no matter what, don't make Claudia and the Generals and "other very highly placed patriots" so powerful! Make them a fringe group, not a powerful and angry force ready to get even with Phillip and Elizabeth the moment their feet hit Soviet Soil. Oh, and while we are at it, don't make poor Arkady pay for their sins by helping them, because he was never a fool, and he, above everyone else, knew what would await them. Where were the armed guards? Where were the words of caution and explanation of how they would need to be in hiding or whatever? Nowhere! Just music. Obviously dropping the whole Paige/Pastors crap much earlier than they did. Again, Holly really didn't have the range to make that story work, but she came close a couple of times. I did like the final scenes with the Pastor. What I didn't like was how abrupt Paige's turn against religion was, I mean, I got where the writers were going with that, but damn, years of that crap for a mediocre pay off. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 12, 2020 Share August 12, 2020 On 8/10/2020 at 2:11 PM, Umbelina said: I don't remember now, but I used to know, seems like it was between the end of the first season and the middle of the 2nd when they decided on that arc. Holly was still young enough that I think they thought she would grow into the complexities of what they planned for the character, or perhaps that Kerry and Mathew's skill would somehow transfer to her by osmosis, or just that Kerry and Mathew could save the scenes with their sheer talent and nuance? Yeah, I'm sure they did say that by the end of the first season they knew the end--though it was probably just in a general way without all the details. And even by that last ep of that season they have Paige snooping while Henry's just too young. Even if they aged the kids more along with their real ages Henry is only 16 by the end. But more important than their ages, it just really seems like Paige was engineered to go through this story from the start since she was the one who was from the first presented as a bit lost and later the one willing to throw herself into stuff, rather than somebody who might need more time and adult experiences to become someone like, say, Fred in season 2. Paige telegraphed from the beginning all the things that were going to be used to play this out. They couldn't really switch to Henry without switching to a very different kind of story, imo, and not the kind of story the show was primarily about. Not to mention they'd wind up with both kids knowing. I feel like it might have even been meant as foreshadowing that when Hans says he knows that Elizabeth originally thought he was imagining things about this Todd guy being a spy for the SA government. He says he knows it sounds silly because Todd's "a sophomore at George Washington University"--In S6 Paige will be a junior at GWU working for the KGB. Though whatever the writers meant by that line, on re-watch it reminds us that Paige's age is not particularly young compared to plenty of other new spies we see. When Marilyn suggests she's too young, she's just being diplomatic because she can see Elizabeth's set on her--and is probably her mother. It does seem like they just figured HT would be fine. I know they talked about giving her little scenes and then more when she proved she could handle them, but really, what does that mean? What would her "not handling" bigger scenes look like--the actress having a breakdown from overload? No longer being able to remember or basically understand the lines? Of course she could handle it! It's not like they never thought about the teenage child finding out and being recruited until they saw Holly Taylor play that scene on the bus with Pastor Tim towards the end of S2. On 8/10/2020 at 2:11 PM, Umbelina said: It was obvious the focus of the show was Elizabeth's story though, by the last two seasons it was painfully obvious. Her story was completely painted in technicolor, while Mathews was pencil sketched in. To the writers, that meant doing a mini-me catastrophic and I'm sure they were going for touching/meaningful/sacrifice/consequences/devastating Liz/Paige story. <sigh> at what could have been... Their big pay off was Liz losing Paige at the end, and that was supposed to be some kind of justice for all Liz had done throughout the series, her "payback." What I seriously don't understand though? Is why they stuck with that, in the way they did, when it was obvious it wasn't working? It was like they were sitting at the blackjack table, losing hand after hand, but refused to get up and leave, or at least try another table, or a different game. I'm sure they liked Holly Taylor quite a bit, but DAMN! I think the most obvious answer is that they did think it was working. Whether or not they were disappointed with how Paige was coming across, I don't know. For a while there there were plenty of TV critics who wrote a lot about what a fine actress she was, putting her on Emmy wishlists etc. I do think, though, that the audience reaction to Paige shows that it wasn't working. Not because some people disliked her (many didn't like Skyler White either!) but because people reacted to scenes that probably should have been decisive for her by still not feeling like something definitive had happened. Unless it was factual, of course, like telling Pastor Tim. On 8/10/2020 at 2:11 PM, Umbelina said: There were one or two moments where she was a bit better, but probably because the scenes called for very obvious emotions? The scene with Henry after he "had an accident" after saving both of their lives, the scene in the bar when she was flirting with guys (before the fight) felt real to me, probably because it was the most like Holly in real life. Even her "best" scene though, the fighting with Mathew in the apartment, was a pretty straightforward scene for her, and she did fine. If you really look at it though, it's because Rhees carried that scene, and acted the hell out of it. It's funny you mentioned that one because like I said an idea's been forming in my mind of a logical progression for her in S6 that I didn't really see at the time and that's one of the moments where I thought oh, this scene would play very differently if there was a subtext to what Paige is doing here. It's still a great scene, like you said, where Philip is coming from is great and it's always satisfying seeing someone being cluelessly arrogant get smacked down, especially in a relatively gentle way. But what if Paige's dismissiveness of Philip was covering up her own fear? Not that Philip would hurt her, of course, but that scene is in an ep where her fantasy world is getting beaten up from all directions. I think that ep is the end of her story, except the climax/final break gets put off because Elizabeth and Claudia reel her back in with their drunken girl party. But right before that here's Philip, the one person in her life she's pretty sure of, suddenly showing up at her apartment and literally taking off the gloves for her own good. But if that's meant to be there, it's not in the performance at all. So it just seems like Paige has no idea what Philip's talking about and he's embarrassing until he's not and then she just forgets about it. Rather than the scene feeling like more than that. They must have noticed that it's essentially the end of Philip and Paige's on-screen relationship and I wonder if it was supposed to play that way. But without subtext on Paige's side that Philip would of course also be playing against, the stakes are way lower. It becomes just about Paige not being as good at fighting as she wanted to believe. On 8/10/2020 at 2:11 PM, Umbelina said: I'm not mad at Holly Taylor at all. I just don't think she was personally as mature as the writers kept insisting Paige was (until they finally gave it all up at the end, in season six, and let Paige's idiot and incompetent flags fly.) That was the point where Holly's acting at least didn't ruin scenes, because it was truer to Holly's real self, and less of a reach for her in acting. Yes, it she wasn't aware that Paige's mistakes were bad, that was just fine. Her not putting anything into her eye-rolls besides eye-rolls just made it all the more clear this was a disaster. Luckily Elizabeth was established as capable of being very deep in denial! On 8/10/2020 at 2:11 PM, Umbelina said: That said, the writers did the character no favors either. You can't keep cramming it down the viewers throats how mature and smart she is, and they did that for YEARS in dialogue from her parents, and then watch her show complete cluelessness in just about every scene (talking pre season six here.) Honestly, even on re-watch I don't see her ever being portrayed as somebody we're supposed to see as exceptionally smart or mature. There's times where they compliment her character--like in this ep Philip says it's great how she stuck to the church and Elizabeth gushes that there's something so "special" about her that she can do whatever she sets her mind to, but to me, at least, they just play as the kind of compliments any kid could get. None of them seem to refer to her having a character, intelligence or skills that would make her stand out the way Henry will. Or even as Elizabeth or Philip clearly did. And as you point out, even when she's being complimented she's being presented as respectable but ordinary. She's got her own special qualities, but not in that way. On 8/10/2020 at 2:11 PM, Umbelina said: Showing Paige drinking vodka and being indoctrinated by two extraordinary actresses, in some fun scenes which did camouflage Holly's lack of skills, or rather, didn't ask much of her other than wide eyed or drunk reactions? Still wasn't enough for this supposedly smart girl surrounded by TV documentaries showing the true conditions in the USSR all the time. THEN they make her a college student, and still, she doesn't seem to grasp that she's betraying her own country for a country that is a complete mess, and just as, if not more corrupt, than the country she's betraying. Yes, that's a great example. Martha was in a similar situation in that she's in a secret marriage to this guy who's sending up a ton of red flags and she works in counterintelligence so has plenty of reasons to be more suspicious than average. But you don't spend Martha's story asking how she hasn't noticed these things, because even though Martha never says outright that she's in denial, she plays it like she is. But like I said I wouldn't be surprised if HT isn't playing Paige as in denial at all and so is just playing Paige as sacrificing herself for a good cause--one that she knows more about than anyone--because you have to know a ton about Russia to hear about the Great Patriotic War! She didn't grow up at the time Paige did so might not be aware of how this kind of stuff was common knowledge. (Likewise in this ep when Elizabeth is telling her she used to do illegal things as an activist, a kid Paige's age would be very aware of the kind of things 60s radicals might get up to.) On 8/10/2020 at 2:11 PM, Umbelina said: The big pay back for all the murders, and all the self delusion of Elizabeth about her country and any of this being worth it, is losing your kids? Big whoop. Honestly, big whoop, but especially when one of those kids is the idiot Paige. Don't get me wrong, Kerry sold the fuck out of that scene on the train, and Paige didn't ruin it, because she had no dialogue, just stand there and look forlorn/resigned and let the music swell. It did work, but only as a PART of the finale/wrap up. It wasn't enough to carry the rest of the ending of the show. KR does a fantastic job when Paige is yelling at her in Jennings, Elizabeth, too, but to me that scene is like the epitome of all HT's limitations. The scene's practically a monologue for Paige and while it still plays because there's a lot on the page, the underlying structure of it, for me, just isn't there. (It's maybe especially hard because she can't make transitions internally.) I think of that here because that's the scene that's presumably meant to be Elizabeth facing something like the truth that's coming. Not the fall of the USSR, since that hasn't happened yet and since Paige cares so little about it it doesn't even come into her mind to throw in Elizabeth's face. But having her daughter tell her to her face that she's not a great hero and defender of the truth, but just a whore who lies about everything and whose husband and son can't stand her. (And this after Claudia's told her she's betrayed everything she's worked for--a scene that's still present in this scene for Elizabeth in the performance.) Not blaming it all on HT that the scene didn't play on that level, but I'm not surprised so many responded to it with variations of, "So....I guess the Communist spy phase is over? Good-bye Russia! Hello, Hari Krishnas!" Those two fights seem like they're really intended to be important endings in Paige's relationship with each parent and that aspect of the character is something that's been onscreen for 6 years. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina August 12, 2020 Share August 12, 2020 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: Paige telegraphed from the beginning all the things that were going to be used to play this out. They couldn't really switch to Henry without switching to a very different kind of story, imo, and not the kind of story the show was primarily about. Not to mention they'd wind up with both kids knowing. Well, yeah, they could have. Just show Paige's complete incapacity for the job and have Claudia choose her brother instead. Also, Henry was showing more skills at the time too. He's the one who saved their asses with the guy who had beer at the lake. He's the one who broke and entered his friend's house to play video games. (etc.) He turned out to be the brilliant one, at math and computers (highly valuable as a KGB agent) and he was also very good at sports, showing he might have the physical capacity as well. He also knew how to keep secrets, and kept many. 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: I feel like it might have even been meant as foreshadowing that when Hans says he knows that Elizabeth originally thought he was imagining things about this Todd guy being a spy for the SA government. He says he knows it sounds silly because Todd's "a sophomore at George Washington University"--In S6 Paige will be a junior at GWU working for the KGB. Though whatever the writers meant by that line, on re-watch it reminds us that Paige's age is not particularly young compared to plenty of other new spies we see. When Marilyn suggests she's too young, she's just being diplomatic because she can see Elizabeth's set on her--and is probably her mother. For sure Hans was meant to mirror Paige. Also to show that Elizabeth SUCKED at training Paige, giving her all kinds of breaks she would never have given Hans. I think Paige sucking at everything as a spy was a last minute add in though, the writers finally adjusted to the absurdity of Paige as a competent KGB recruit. 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: On 8/10/2020 at 11:11 AM, Umbelina said: I don't remember now, but I used to know, seems like it was between the end of the first season and the middle of the 2nd when they decided on that arc. Holly was still young enough that I think they thought she would grow into the complexities of what they planned for the character, or perhaps that Kerry and Mathew's skill would somehow transfer to her by osmosis, or just that Kerry and Mathew could save the scenes with their sheer talent and nuance? Yeah, I'm sure they did say that by the end of the first season they knew the end--though it was probably just in a general way without all the details. And even by that last ep of that season they have Paige snooping while Henry's just too young. Even if they aged the kids more along with their real ages Henry is only 16 by the end. But more important than their ages, it just really seems like Paige was engineered to go through this story from the start since she was the one who was from the first presented as a bit lost and later the one willing to throw herself into stuff, rather than somebody who might need more time and adult experiences to become someone like, say, Fred in season 2. Paige telegraphed from the beginning all the things that were going to be used to play this out. They couldn't really switch to Henry without switching to a very different kind of story, imo, and not the kind of story the show was primarily about. Not to mention they'd wind up with both kids knowing. I feel like it might have even been meant as foreshadowing that when Hans says he knows that Elizabeth originally thought he was imagining things about this Todd guy being a spy for the SA government. He says he knows it sounds silly because Todd's "a sophomore at George Washington University"--In S6 Paige will be a junior at GWU working for the KGB. Though whatever the writers meant by that line, on re-watch it reminds us that Paige's age is not particularly young compared to plenty of other new spies we see. When Marilyn suggests she's too young, she's just being diplomatic because she can see Elizabeth's set on her--and is probably her mother. It does seem like they just figured HT would be fine. I know they talked about giving her little scenes and then more when she proved she could handle them, but really, what does that mean? What would her "not handling" bigger scenes look like--the actress having a breakdown from overload? No longer being able to remember or basically understand the lines? Of course she could handle it! It's not like they never thought about the teenage child finding out and being recruited until they saw Holly Taylor play that scene on the bus with Pastor Tim towards the end of S2. Quote It was obvious the focus of the show was Elizabeth's story though, by the last two seasons it was painfully obvious. Her story was completely painted in technicolor, while Mathews was pencil sketched in. To the writers, that meant doing a mini-me catastrophic and I'm sure they were going for touching/meaningful/sacrifice/consequences/devastating Liz/Paige story. <sigh> at what could have been... Their big pay off was Liz losing Paige at the end, and that was supposed to be some kind of justice for all Liz had done throughout the series, her "payback." What I seriously don't understand though? Is why they stuck with that, in the way they did, when it was obvious it wasn't working? It was like they were sitting at the blackjack table, losing hand after hand, but refused to get up and leave, or at least try another table, or a different game. I'm sure they liked Holly Taylor quite a bit, but DAMN! I think the most obvious answer is that they did think it was working. Whether or not they were disappointed with how Paige was coming across, I don't know. For a while there there were plenty of TV critics who wrote a lot about what a fine actress she was, putting her on Emmy wishlists etc. I do think, though, that the audience reaction to Paige shows that it wasn't working. Not because some people disliked her (many didn't like Skyler White either!) but because people reacted to scenes that probably should have been decisive for her by still not feeling like something definitive had happened. Unless it was factual, of course, like telling Pastor Tim. That was so odd, like a few recappers suddenly (together) felt sorry for Paige, and suddenly started making shit up, or at the very least, looking at her with very deep rose colored glasses. It seemed more an attempt to right past misogyny for female characters from fans, as well as a large dash of "well kids are always hated on shows, look what happened on Homeland!" It's was bullshit. 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: It's funny you mentioned that one because like I said an idea's been forming in my mind of a logical progression for her in S6 that I didn't really see at the time and that's one of the moments where I thought oh, this scene would play very differently if there was a subtext to what Paige is doing here. It's still a great scene, like you said, where Philip is coming from is great and it's always satisfying seeing someone being cluelessly arrogant get smacked down, especially in a relatively gentle way. But what if Paige's dismissiveness of Philip was covering up her own fear? Not that Philip would hurt her, of course, but that scene is in an ep where her fantasy world is getting beaten up from all directions. I think that ep is the end of her story, except the climax/final break gets put off because Elizabeth and Claudia reel her back in with their drunken girl party. But right before that here's Philip, the one person in her life she's pretty sure of, suddenly showing up at her apartment and literally taking off the gloves for her own good. Imagine that scene with a nuanced actress though. Frankly, the rift between Philip and Paige was so forced to me, they were always close, and Phillip was always better with the kids. Again though, it was the writers FINALLY admitting that Paige was a fool, which I did enjoy. How stupid do you have to be to think an embedded KGB spy, someone who survived the most dangerous job possible in the KGB for decades, was, or could ever, in any way, be "less than" Paige. OMG. 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: But if that's meant to be there, it's not in the performance at all. So it just seems like Paige has no idea what Philip's talking about and he's embarrassing until he's not and then she just forgets about it. Rather than the scene feeling like more than that. They must have noticed that it's essentially the end of Philip and Paige's on-screen relationship and I wonder if it was supposed to play that way. But without subtext on Paige's side that Philip would of course also be playing against, the stakes are way lower. It becomes just about Paige not being as good at fighting as she wanted to believe. Yes, because Holly Taylor simply does not have the skills of mastery of technique or character that this part demanded. Also, the writers should have paid off that scene. They didn't seem to want to write much for Philip in the finale season though, it was more of a focus on Liz and Paige. 2 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Yes, it she wasn't aware that Paige's mistakes were bad, that was just fine. Her not putting anything into her eye-rolls besides eye-rolls just made it all the more clear this was a disaster. Luckily Elizabeth was established as capable of being very deep in denial! Which is where, I think, the writers should have gone a couple of seasons ago. Because that part? Is compelling, and within Holly Taylor's limited range. Naive and foolish and excited about the wrong things, and full of herself to boot. Liz could have continued to cover for her, but there should have been more serious consequences, and I would have enjoyed a scene where Phillip became involved in the disaster. For me, that should have been the catalyst for Phillip finally standing up to Elizabeth and insisting on turning himself in, cutting a deal with the USA. He should have, and I believe his character would have, sacrificed anything to save his children from the life he hated, for a country he no longer idolized or made excuses for. 2 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Honestly, even on re-watch I don't see her ever being portrayed as somebody we're supposed to see as exceptionally smart or mature. There's times where they compliment her character--like in this ep Philip says it's great how she stuck to the church and Elizabeth gushes that there's something so "special" about her that she can do whatever she sets her mind to, but to me, at least, they just play as the kind of compliments any kid could get. None of them seem to refer to her having a character, intelligence or skills that would make her stand out the way Henry will. Or even as Elizabeth or Philip clearly did. And as you point out, even when she's being complimented she's being presented as respectable but ordinary. She's got her own special qualities, but not in that way. I respect your rewatches and recaps, but nah...they did it all the time. Maybe I was more aware of it because I was so frustrated with it. "Paige can do anything." from daddy, even though he didn't want her to be a spy. Henry talking about Paige being the golden child, then excelling which shocked his parents who apparently were so obsessed with Paige that Henry did it all on his own. Ditto the smart comments, etc. 2 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Yes, that's a great example. Martha was in a similar situation in that she's in a secret marriage to this guy who's sending up a ton of red flags and she works in counterintelligence so has plenty of reasons to be more suspicious than average. But you don't spend Martha's story asking how she hasn't noticed these things, because even though Martha never says outright that she's in denial, she plays it like she is. But like I said I wouldn't be surprised if HT isn't playing Paige as in denial at all and so is just playing Paige as sacrificing herself for a good cause--one that she knows more about than anyone--because you have to know a ton about Russia to hear about the Great Patriotic War! She didn't grow up at the time Paige did so might not be aware of how this kind of stuff was common knowledge. (Likewise in this ep when Elizabeth is telling her she used to do illegal things as an activist, a kid Paige's age would be very aware of the kind of things 60s radicals might get up to.) Martha's character did more with a raised eyebrow or slight intake of breath than Holly managed to do in 6 seasons. I don't think it's just age either, we've seen remarkable young actors before. I agree though, when Holly has zero clue, how can Paige? That whole GPW was so stupid too, because I grew up in those years, and the horrible conditions in the USSR were on documentaries and news programs all the time. Lines for miles for a small piece of meat that would be "sold out" before most of them ever got to the front. People being shot trying to escape over the wall. You'd have to be blind to have not seen that stuff, AND she's in political classes at college. HELLO? 2 hours ago, sistermagpie said: KR does a fantastic job when Paige is yelling at her in Jennings, Elizabeth, too, but to me that scene is like the epitome of all HT's limitations. The scene's practically a monologue for Paige and while it still plays because there's a lot on the page, the underlying structure of it, for me, just isn't there. (It's maybe especially hard because she can't make transitions internally.) Yeah, KR was great, Paige wasn't even adequate in that scene. She only played some kind of horrified by sex blue stocking there. She had no concept of what that scene was supposed to be about. I really think it's just because Holly is a happy naive American girl who obviously has no interest in politics or history, or even studying that time in prep for the show, so she COULD bring layers to her character. I think she's earnest and likable enough, but some people just do take much longer to mature, and she's one of them. She may surprise us all one day in another roll, but in this one? What a waste. It's another reason why, though it was supposed to have some great impact and be the worst punishment ever for Phillip and Liz, losing their kids, the finale really didn't work for me at all. Liz's only love was her blind obedience to her country, and later, maybe a smidge of love for Phillip. Her kids were liked, but she never wanted them, and she was never more than adequate as a loving mother. Phillip provided the love parts, he enjoyed hanging out with them, doing things with them, teaching them to drive, he was the comfort when they were upset. The only true emotional stakes were Phillip and Liz. That's why I said in my second post, a far better ending to me would have been Phillip finally locating his balls, and for the sake of his children, if not his own, turning himself in to Stan, after giving Elizabeth time to leave the country (imagine the power of those scenes!) Also, think of the people it would have given decent endings to, Stan wouldn't be in prison, the kids would be OK, both having Phillip not recruiting Paige, and Henry able to stay in school, or in another school just as good elsewhere. Phillip might have even been able to negotiate Oleg's release...Phillip was a very big fish. (Also, I can't help it, I still worry for Oleg's wife and kid, and his parents.) The sadness and loss would still be there, Phillip losing his obsession Liz, and hopefully even Liz after arriving back in the USSR, regretting losing him, and realizing that she loved him just as much, but then the brave resolve of the perfect soldier/patriot kicks in and she squares her shoulders to face it all. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 13, 2020 Share August 13, 2020 20 hours ago, Umbelina said: Well, yeah, they could have. Just show Paige's complete incapacity for the job and have Claudia choose her brother instead. Also, Henry was showing more skills at the time too. He's the one who saved their asses with the guy who had beer at the lake. He's the one who broke and entered his friend's house to play video games. (etc.) He turned out to be the brilliant one, at math and computers (highly valuable as a KGB agent) and he was also very good at sports, showing he might have the physical capacity as well. He also knew how to keep secrets, and kept many. Sure, plotwise they could have done it. Henry by the end is obviously the one moving his way into the world they want to be in. It's not even by accident--one of the things he liked about the school was that powerful people went there. But it's the very different story I didn't think they were interested telling. It's more of a traditional spy story because Henry's a believable target and a kid who isn't emotionally vulnerable the way Paige was because he knows who he is and that he has no interest in spying for Russia. There's a plot, but a different kind of plot. The show wanted to a teenage girl with ideals who got broken down by finding out the secret until she gave up her own identity and then finally threw it all. Henry's story would be about a smart American boy targeted by the KGB looking for a way to get free of them while still protecting his family. 20 hours ago, Umbelina said: Imagine that scene with a nuanced actress though. Frankly, the rift between Philip and Paige was so forced to me, they were always close, and Phillip was always better with the kids. Again though, it was the writers FINALLY admitting that Paige was a fool, which I did enjoy. How stupid do you have to be to think an embedded KGB spy, someone who survived the most dangerous job possible in the KGB for decades, was, or could ever, in any way, be "less than" Paige. OMG. Exactly! I mean, if you go into it with that relationship in your mind and read the script I think there's definitely ways to play it as part of that. That seems especially obviously watching these eps now where Philip is laying out that Paige needs to keep sticking to her own beliefs and then here's Paige so obviously trying to be something she's not. And that's something that can come through a surface arrogance, but it just doesn't seem like it's there. 20 hours ago, Umbelina said: Which is where, I think, the writers should have gone a couple of seasons ago. Because that part? Is compelling, and within Holly Taylor's limited range. Naive and foolish and excited about the wrong things, and full of herself to boot. Though tbf, that doesn't seem to be who Paige is. That is, Holly Taylor is excited about playing a spy, but it didn't seem like Paige was ever intended to be excited, exactly, about what she was doing. She herself, it seemed to me, was supposed to be seeing it as giving up even while she saw herself as being important and part of something bigger etc. 20 hours ago, Umbelina said: Liz could have continued to cover for her, but there should have been more serious consequences, and I would have enjoyed a scene where Phillip became involved in the disaster. For me, that should have been the catalyst for Phillip finally standing up to Elizabeth and insisting on turning himself in, cutting a deal with the USA. He should have, and I believe his character would have, sacrificed anything to save his children from the life he hated, for a country he no longer idolized or made excuses for. I would have loved Philip to be involved in a fiasco. At the time I was hoping that would happen. Though I didn't see it leading to Philip defecting, just Philip being as openly critical of Paige as he was about other bad spies in the past because he's afraid for her. It was a bit disappointing that Paige's ineptness went completely unchallenged. Paige's entire spy career takes place in the first five episodes, the last of those being where Elizabeth says maybe she isn't cut out for it. After that there's only jobs she doesn't ask Paige to do, until the order to apply for an internship, which seemed like it meant Elizabeth was shoving her into her allegedly safe career. 20 hours ago, Umbelina said: I respect your rewatches and recaps, but nah...they did it all the time. Maybe I was more aware of it because I was so frustrated with it. "Paige can do anything." from daddy, even though he didn't want her to be a spy. Henry talking about Paige being the golden child, then excelling which shocked his parents who apparently were so obsessed with Paige that Henry did it all on his own. DAfter itto the smart comments, etc. But...where? I mean, there's plenty of times where people say nice things about her, but never in the sense that the audience is supposed to see her as, well, as Henry. He's the one who gets compliments (later on) that objectively suggest that he's kind of a superstar. He's the one who gets into a good school, networks with rich people, is a shoo-in for captain of the hockey team, has girls cheering for him, made his own plans for tuition, gets his math teacher's attention, gets invited to the FBI, identified and knocked out the perv. Paige's outside compliments come from her youth pastor who probably talks like that about every kid. And her parents who adore her (Philip) or are desperate for her to succeed like she did (Elizabeth). Henry does say that his parents are surprised when it turns out he's smart because they think Paige is the golden child but of course she is. She's the good girl who does laundry and went from demanding attention because that was her personality to demanding attention because she held her parents' fate in her hands. Paige did her homework and did well in school, Henry didn't study. Naturally they were shocked when he suddenly did. That said, can't help but give a shout out to Keidrich Sellati there for seeming to be able to follow Henry's progression in exactly the ways it seems like we don't see with Paige. He knows his character has had a couple of significant Looks about noticing when his parents run off with Paige, he knows Henry's always been vocal about his parents' inconvenient absences. He knows he ended S4 sitting in front of the TV alone while everybody else had storylines. When Henry's personality shifts in S5 it doesn't seem random, it seems like a kid who reacted to something, sat with it, and made a decision about what he was going to do about it. But unlike with Paige, for me, it doesn't seem like Henry's reaction is connected to his having read the script to find out the real story. He seems like a kid genuinely reacting to his own distorted view of his family. When he's suddenly making dinner for his parents' etc., he doesn't play it like he thinks this is how Henry's been. 20 hours ago, Umbelina said: That whole GPW was so stupid too, because I grew up in those years, and the horrible conditions in the USSR were on documentaries and news programs all the time. Lines for miles for a small piece of meat that would be "sold out" before most of them ever got to the front. People being shot trying to escape over the wall. You'd have to be blind to have not seen that stuff, AND she's in political classes at college. HELLO? They did the actors no favors by having her suggest she knew kids who considered themselves political without seeming to have opinions on the USSR. Like, what are they political about? Are these young Republicans or liberal kids? 20 hours ago, Umbelina said: Yeah, KR was great, Paige wasn't even adequate in that scene. She only played some kind of horrified by sex blue stocking there. She had no concept of what that scene was supposed to be about. It's a shame. It just comes across like, "Here I am saying important words!" and then awkwardly leaving because...stricken face. 20 hours ago, Umbelina said: It's another reason why, though it was supposed to have some great impact and be the worst punishment ever for Phillip and Liz, losing their kids, the finale really didn't work for me at all. Liz's only love was her blind obedience to her country, and later, maybe a smidge of love for Phillip. Her kids were liked, but she never wanted them, and she was never more than adequate as a loving mother. Phillip provided the love parts, he enjoyed hanging out with them, doing things with them, teaching them to drive, he was the comfort when they were upset. To be fair, a lot of these ideas are pretty explicit. I think that's the whole reason for Harvest's dying speeches. Philip and Elizabeth don't know that they've only got a couple more weeks with their kids, so it matters what they're doing with their time with them. One of them chose to make an effort to be a parent and the kids seem to each have lines that hint sort of echo Harvest's about that. The kids are going to have complicated feelings about both parents and I don't think their thoughts of Philip are just going to be rosy, but I think they'll both be able to miss him more. I can't imagine Paige thinking about losing Elizabeth without feeling some relief and her absence probably wouldn't feel that different for Henry since he felt she was already long gone. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina August 13, 2020 Share August 13, 2020 @sistermagpie Well, Paige will spend the rest of her life in prison so it doesn't matter. 😉 No, I was talking about her parents constantly saying how great Paige was, the smart stuff. They were downright shocked, and Paige was pissed when Henry became the real deal in that family. My point was, losing the kids (the way the show portrayed it) didn't have the emotional gut punch the writers kept saying it did in interviews. At all. The fact that they completely ignored that Paige will be in prison, and Henry a ward of the court and no longer in the school he loves, or with the friends he's made, and the bright future that seemed inevitable. Losing each other would have had the impact though, at least for Phillip, and him choosing his kids over his unhealthy obsession with Elizabeth would have made me stand up and cheer, and feel sad for both of them, feel that they really did pay a price for murdering so many innocent people. Link to comment
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