Umbelina August 30, 2019 Share August 30, 2019 3 hours ago, Roseanna said: I think that the conception like this is the reason why Westerners have difficulties to understand Russians and Russia. After the Soviet Union fell, there was a even bigger difference in the standard of living between Northern Russia and Finland than between the US and Mexico, but still there was no sudden wave of hundred thousands refugees coming over the border which we had been afraid of. Sure, people moved here but for the usual reasons, work or or marriage, or because they had Finnish roots (the latter were considered remigrants) although they spoke only Russian. In the same time, more Estonians (and in percentage terms that is even more essential) came temporarily or permanently to work to Finland, just as many Finns went in 60ies ago to Sweden because of better wages and general work conditions. He had nothing in Russia but a grandfather he barely knew, and poverty, and a country that wouldn't accept any truth from him, and indeed, after using him in a pointless and horrible war, threw him in an insane asylum. In addition, he was a kid. I don't believe the USSR held anything for him but familiarity, but as a young man, he could easily adapt to a system where protesting something wouldn't lock him up. There was also help available for refugees from the USSR here (at that time.) I simply don't believe he would come all that way, and then just let Gabe order him back. Gabe came alone. He could have easily just made it to an embassy and stayed to try to find his father, or to build a new life. It's true that the Soviets I have known have all been escapees or, in a couple of cases, released in the Jewish agreements, but as overwhelming as they found the USA's abundance, none wanted to return. Their nostalgia was for Russia, picking mushrooms, or family who could not get out, never for the Soviet Union. Also, most had "good" jobs, with advanced degrees before escaping or being released, so that also limits my perceptions. I still do not believe Misha would have returned, after all that effort, and only and old man, obvious KGB agent telling him all would be fine if he did. Seriously? NO ONE believed the KGB, not at any level of socioeconomic status. Misha would not have trusted or believed Gabe, his mother told him to leave an provided the methods, and wanted him to find his father. If anything, he would trust her, not some stranger/KGB stooge. 3 hours ago, Roseanna said: What a great idea! Also, Paige's decision was the opposite to Martha's. When she ran away from Gabe, she still had other options: to call the FBi or make an suicide. If we accept @Unbelina's belief that Paige would go the prison, was she just too stupid not to see the consequences or too afraid to take a chance to begin her life anew, like Martha did? Paige will spend the rest of her life, or most of it in prison without doubt. Yes, she IS just that stupid. Paige has always been a complete fool, and her final actions prove it. I will say that I found that completely unbelievable, having lived through those times. Also, the writers kept insisting Paige was so smart, but apparently never read a newspaper, or watched TV about the country she committed treason for. Had she? She would have known that she was easily proven guilty of not only treason, but also of accessory to several murders. Please! She didn't listen to the news or read a paper after all the deaths at the warehouse, or the navy guy found stabbed? In what universe? Grrrrr...getting angry at the sloppiness again, and still in awe that the reviewers were so thrilled with this horrible and nonsensical final season. Woo! Yay! Everyone dies, is imprisoned, or facing a future beyond bleak (Henry.) Link to comment
sistermagpie August 30, 2019 Share August 30, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Roseanna said: If we accept @Unbelina's belief that Paige would go the prison, was she just too stupid not to see the consequences or too afraid to take a chance to begin her life anew, like Martha did? I don't think Paige thought she would be going to prison, actually. There's just such a consistent pattern of her overestimating her safety** and having that impression confirmed by what happens--even in this episode Stan lets them go and she thinks the idea that her parents are running is absurd. I can't even imaging that she thinks she's going to prison or that she even thinks she's done anything at this point that would mean she should go to prison. But, of course, she's still taking a chance to begin her life anew without her parents. Maybe she doesn't realize just how much her life is going to change (Henry's already very independent) but I think one could argue that her stepping off the train and not following her parents was just a big of a break with the past as her following them to Russia because even there they would provide a lot of consistency. She gets off the train an orphan. ** ETA: I do think she often feels personally unsafe, like when she freaks out on the guys in the bar or is panicked on the job. But the threat of treason doesn't seem real. Edited August 30, 2019 by sistermagpie 1 Link to comment
Umbelina August 30, 2019 Share August 30, 2019 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I don't think Paige thought she would be going to prison, actually. There's just such a consistent pattern of her overestimating her safety** and having that impression confirmed by what happens--even in this episode Stan lets them go and she thinks the idea that her parents are running is absurd. I can't even imaging that she thinks she's going to prison or that she even thinks she's done anything at this point that would mean she should go to prison. I agree with "overestimating her safety" or rather, an absurd vision of her invincibility, which is why her dad "sparred" with her. Still, for me to accept that a college student in the DC area who hangs with congressional aides has never learned the definition or punishments for TREASON? Gee, I think I learned that in 3rd grade along with Paul Revere's ride. That requires the same kind of huge leaps of logic that Paige never opening a newspaper or seeing on the TV news programs about the dead people in the warehouse she was the look out for, oh yeah, that very same night! Or the General that "committed suicide" or that there was nothing on the news about the dead sailor who hit on her. Nope, the police didn't ask the public for any information on his stabbing at all, no "come forward if you saw anything" and NCIS didn't give a shit either. Even though he WAS a guard for sensitive areas...Paige is blind, deaf, as well as dumb. It would be unbelievable for me if she was 14, but as an adult who takes current and political affairs classes in a DC university? Come on now. How did she ever learn to tie her shoes with that kind of vacant mind? Link to comment
sistermagpie August 30, 2019 Share August 30, 2019 Just watched The Deal. It was always one of my favorites so this one’s going to be long, but also there’s just a ton of interesting stuff going on here! So many cool personal interactions. There are two explicit deals, the one to trade Baklanov for the Refuseniks and the deal Oleg offers Stan. I don’t remember ever really thinking Oleg was working against the Rezidentura, but he’s definitely set up in a way that make it a possibility and his scene with Stan is a great twist. I’ll never forget his calling out, “Agent Beeman!” and introducing himself by name knowing Stan’s only heard about him up until now. Stan calls Gaad in on the Baklanov case, adding something to their relationship after Stan screwed his career. The Vlad plot may be why Stan doesn’t just kill Oleg when he claims to be the one person who could out Nina—Stan looks completely stunned by Oleg’s play. It’s obvious he’s not only running Nina, but in love with her. He’s got no game here. Btw, the timeline in this ep is still strange. It seems like people talk as if it takes place in one night but it’s clearly two. The main thing I hadn’t realized the first time is how much this ep gets to the heart of the personal philosophy of the show. There’s always two major forces tugging in different directions and causing conflict: there’s purpose, represented by things like the Church or the Cause, and personal, represented often by EST. The show takes the position that people need both in balance. Stan comes home and finds Sandra drawing. He asks if it’s an EST thing and she says no, but she learned it from someone in EST. It’s called soul retrieval. Iow, the art therapy that Elizabeth will be doing in S6 totally is soul retrieval and is very much related to EST, knowing your own soul, who you really are. Elizabeth has become alienated from that in S6. Philip and Elizabeth are both moving in the EST direction in this ep and both forced into something like intense therapy sessions by their job. I always remember that happening to Philip here but Elizabeth’s journey is in some ways more intense in her interactions with Martha and Brad. I think people often expected Martha to make Philip wish Elizabeth was more like her as a wife, but I never saw Philip relate to her that way. For him, his interactions with Martha seemed to be more about seeing what he was doing to her. It’s Elizabeth, I think, who relates to Martha more like that, especially in this ep when she spends an evening with her “sister-in-law” as Jennifer. Elizabeth’s already mining sensitive personal emotions in her mission with Brad. Last week she talked about feeling powerless during her attack. Here she tells him how hard it is for her to feel things, that she’s trying to relearn how and fears she’s too old to do it. She says she’s got nothing to give him—something I think she also fears regarding Philip. Perhaps she wouldn’t have been quite so vulnerably honest with Brad had she not just been gazing at Clark’s side of the Westerfield marriage bed. Where she was standing because Martha thought Clark should care more about his wife than his job. The big moment is, of course, when Martha seems to reveal a different side of Philip sexually. Martha calls him an animal in bed, sure, but when “Jennifer” asks for specifics Martha says is that in bed Clark “makes her his” and I think that’s what Elizabeth’s really going for later. The rough sex isn’t really the point, but Elizabeth can’t articulate that—and maybe Philip couldn’t either. Clark is able to make Martha all his while Elizabeth fears she can’t give herself at all. Satisfying Philip sexually is part of it, but it’s obviously more complicated than simply being willing to indulge kinks. Otherwise she would have just asked Philip to tell her what he wanted—she’s a professional sex worker, after all. And so is he, so why wouldn’t he ask? Elizabeth’s emotional issues in this ep are easy to track because they’ve already been laid out for us in flashbacks etc. With Philip the point seems to be the opposite. He just cut himself off from his original self as part of his job. That’s the sore spot the Mossad agent (his partners call him Yossi) focuses on. I don’t know anything about EST IRL but on the show it seems like it’s confrontational like Yossi is here. He starts off with an easy guess that anybody who grew up in Russia is probably familiar with icicles and uses that to hammer on the central lie of Philip’s life, mocking the very thing that makes Philip the platinum spy to Yossi’s bronze. He’s attacking from his weaker position. This will be echoed by Anton later when he says Philip’s a monster, not a man, and that “whoever he was” has been trained out of him (note Philip will finally accuse Elizabeth of not acting human in S6 when she goes off the deep end). Elizabeth keeps her memories vivid in her mind but cuts herself off from the emotions in them. Philip is okay with feeling, but has repressed all memories of home now that he’s here. This is echoed explicitly in a later conversation where Elizabeth asks if EST isn’t all about “feelings” and Philip says for him it’s about thinking about parts of himself he doesn’t usually think about. They’re really both talking about the same thing, but they’ve compartmentalized differently. I like, btw, that as successful as the Mossad agent’s needling is, Philip gets in the last word when, as he takes Anton away, he tells Yossi that it looks like he’ll make it back home for Passover after all—rubbing it in that he, too, will be going home. And he says it intentionally in front of Anton so he knows Yossi’s the guy they’re selling him out for. The long nights of intense confrontation produce a happy memory of swordfighting with icicles and one of my favorite scenes. Philip comes home having not only connected with something but wanting to share it with Elizabeth, and Elizabeth responds by weaving it together with a shared memory of Russia, the icicles on the trees as they left Moscow. (When Philip wakes up in the car in START he sees snow along the road to Moscow—maybe icicles would have been too on the nose.) Philip says “I remember,” bookending his first claim to Yossi that he “didn’t remember” if there were icicles in Russia. With Elizabeth he can bring the two sides of his life together. On first viewing we had no way of knowing who the “we” was that Philip described as swordfighting with icicles, but it seems logical now to think that he was referring to his brother. Which if true is very intriguing, because it means the first thing that starts to connect Philip to his early past and his true self is a memory of him. Of course I could be making this up out of scraps, but it works, it’s all we have been given and it adds a lot to the show to imagine that emotion hidden in that line, and then have it answered later by his brother’s equally understated description of Philip as being the smartest kid in school. The brother’s line comes after his son saying that they’re “not supposed to talk about Uncle Mischa,” reminding us that Philip’s family have been ordered to repress this subject just as Philip has. So we shouldn’t assume that the lack of talk of it means Philip just doesn’t care—on the contrary, it’s exactly this that’s the main tool of Philip’s development over the series, the excavation and reconnection to these early memories, often in short, wordless and visceral flashbacks. They also bring together two different views of the homeland. Elizabeth’s memories tend to be tied to history and philosophy and the Cause. Philip’s are more sensory and not uniquely Soviet. This also gives more meaning to Philip’s convo in the car with Anton, who’s saying he can’t live thousands of miles from his family. Philip could just as easily be talking to himself as Anton when he says, “You can adapt. You’ve proved that much.” Philip will also be separated from his family and probably already has reason to fear it happening now. And this is probably what he tells himself—he’ll adapt. He’s done it already with his family back in Russia. So well (or just so fiercely) that he never speaks about it. And when he faces the end in START, he’s nearly as calm as he is here. Of course, he’s in a very different situation than Anton who has no reason to be stoic, but he doesn’t choke or hesitate when the time comes. So EST and soul retrieval etc. focus a person on their inner self independent of outside influence, responsibilities or roles. On the other side are outside forces telling you what you should be and want, how you should live, what life means. The thing that gives you purpose and gives you answers you can’t find inside yourself. The larger authority. (EST calls it a cage.) And while Philip and Elizabeth are turning towards the EST side hard in this ep, Paige takes a step in the other direction. She starts off making a snarky comment about Elizabeth not wanting her to read the Bible, but the following night confesses that she hasn’t been entirely honest about why she’s going to the church. It’s not Elizabeth’s “fault.” On first viewing many were confused by Paige’s line saying, “My life, my crazy life…I don’t know where to put it all.” They thought “crazy life” had to refer to something objectively amiss. But I think she just means life in general, her inner life as a middle class teenager. The church gives her a place to put it all, it gives life and Paige a purpose, a positive focus, a blueprint and a meaning. Elizabeth is completely confused at Paige’s declaration. She doesn’t see that the Cause fills an emotional need in herself, she only understands it in terms of being right. The show seems to take the position that both sides are necessary. Elizabeth in S6 really almost “might as well be dead” as Anton says—she seems to see herself as such. In S6 Philip doesn’t simply feel finally free without spying, he feels stuck. He threw himself into his business because he needed something to give that outer structure. Doing the thing that was at hand—a job that was ironically given to him by the Centre to begin with—he eventually recognized that it wasn’t enough to just not be doing what he hated, he wanted to find the right goal for him. The EST side gives you grounding, but you need the right purpose to move forward. Henry finds a purpose in S5 and 6 in school. He embraces the system at St. Edward’s to give his life shape and motivate him forward. It’s not a religion, but it does provide a similar guidance. It’s, uh, just a really cool episode that’s one of my faves!! 2 2 Link to comment
BW Manilowe August 31, 2019 Share August 31, 2019 (edited) Keri Russell appeared, along with other cast members from Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker, the newest (& final) movie in the Star Wars franchise, at last weekend’s D23 Expo (the Disney Fans’ Convention) in Anaheim, CA. You can hear her being introduced early in this clip, but you can’t see her. She, along with another actor from the film (who apparently plays opposite her, but whom I don’t recognize) are interviewed from approximately 4:18-5:08 in the clip. Edited August 31, 2019 by BW Manilowe To remove a word and add a comma. Link to comment
Umbelina August 31, 2019 Share August 31, 2019 I've never seen Felicity, but since I have Hulu for the Handmaid's Tale, I'm now almost though season 2 of it. It's SO strange seeing such a young Keri Russell and such a different role, and bonus! Sydney Bristow before that's who Jennifer Garner became. Link to comment
Roseanna August 31, 2019 Share August 31, 2019 20 hours ago, Umbelina said: Also, the writers kept insisting Paige was so smart, but apparently never read a newspaper, or watched TV about the country she committed treason for. Well, we have discussed about this before. In the befinning a young person has noble ideas like equality and when she looks around, she easily notices that her own country isn't perfect in that (or any) sense. She is horrified to learn about the bad things her country makes or had done and thinks that nothing can justify them. She begins to work for make things better, but nothing seems to change. Now, some people will be tired and stop while others continue because they realize that changes take time and, what's even more important, a society can become better but never perfect. And after 20 years or so, some good things can have created new problems. But some people continue to believe that a perfect society can be created. Those people join other people that teach them that they must abandon indivual opinions and accept that the party always knows best. Their earlier humanism is presented as laughable and instead they are taught to believe that any means are allowed to the final good end. Sometimes they deny (at least publicly) any defects in the USSR, but even if know of them, or even that it has committed many crimes, that doesn't matter to them because in the future it will be a paradise and, even better, help other countries to become such, too. That all applies to Elizabeth who is an ideal Communist. No intellectual arguments can ever convince her. However, in some concrete cases her heart wins over her beliefs. The problem with Paige is that she hasn't been given no credible motivation (ideology, money, blackmail) to become a spy. Yeah, she needs to have a cause, be it the church or spying, she feels herself important for knowing what others don't, she believes that she can best influence on things in secret - in some other characters these could be convincing motives but in the case Paige it is simply enough. So we are left to believe that she becomes to spy becuase she likes to hang around with her mother and Claudia and she thinks that as a spy she can find a perfect mate like her parents. And that she accepts any deeds or rather she believes her mother's versions about them until she learns that her mother uses sex to get information. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina August 31, 2019 Share August 31, 2019 (edited) Yes, I agree, but none of that is Paige, and besides, I was responding to the whole "did she get off the train and not realize what she would face?" thing... Which makes absolutely no sense. She's a grown up. She knows what treason is. She lives in the most political place in the entire country. About the newspapers though? Aside from all of the press from escapees from the USSR at that time, we also had video footage of their nearly empty stores airing on TV all the time. What I was really referring to though was that I absolutely do not believe that the warehouse murders, or the murder of a security guard navy man wouldn't have been noticed. Wouldn't any normally curious person wonder about the press after she was lookout at a warehouse? Wouldn't any slightly intelligent adult know what "accessory to murder" is? Her own father brought her attention to the ridiculous "general committed suicide" thing, and she just blew that off too, although she's also guilty for that. Not to mention conspiracy. So, no, I don't believe Paige could possibly be unaware that she's facing life in prison, or even the death penalty by getting off that train. That is apparently what the writers were trying to get us to believe though, and the only way that's believable at all is if Paige has far less intelligence than what would be required to graduate from junior high, let alone be admitted to university. It's just...bizarre. 😉 Edited August 31, 2019 by Umbelina by not buy, yikes Link to comment
sistermagpie August 31, 2019 Share August 31, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Roseanna said: The problem with Paige is that she hasn't been given no credible motivation (ideology, money, blackmail) to become a spy. Yeah, she needs to have a cause, be it the church or spying, she feels herself important for knowing what others don't, she believes that she can best influence on things in secret - in some other characters these could be convincing motives but in the case Paige it is simply enough. So we are left to believe that she becomes to spy becuase she likes to hang around with her mother and Claudia and she thinks that as a spy she can find a perfect mate like her parents. And that she accepts any deeds or rather she believes her mother's versions about them until she learns that her mother uses sex to get information. 10 hours ago, Umbelina said: So, no, I don't believe Paige could possibly be unaware that she's facing life in prison, or even the death penalty buy getting off that train. That is apparently what the writers were trying to get us to believe though, and the only way that's believable at all is if Paige has far less intelligence than what would be required to graduate from junior high, let alone be admitted to university. It's an interesting problem because on one hand the situation, as you say, makes it hard to swallow. She's allegedly interested in politics now, watching the summit news with her mother and Claudia, studying it in school, just being a person alive in 1987. We know that the newspaper also bizarrely called the general's death a suicide, but there really doesn't seem to be a reason why Paige wouldn't ever check the papers for something like the warehouse break-in that she knows wasn't secret, and if she's reading the paper you'd think there would be a picture of that sailor. Is she so actually uninterested in the subject she's not even bothering? Like she really doesn't want to know that much but is still doing it? She eventually does make exactly this kind of connection when she hears about Jackson. And surely when she said she wanted to spy Philip, at least, would have spelled out to her what this meant for her legally. In Munchkins her parents say that if Alice plays the tape they'll have to leave. Paige says this is crazy and her arguments make no sense, but she's being told that being outed means their life is over. And that's long before she decides to get on board. When they get to her apartment in START she's working for the KGB. They say "The FBI knows about us. We have to leave for good. They almost caught [Philip]" which indicates that of course her parents think she's up to speed on this. Elizabeth tells her they don't have time for her arguments, the FBI could be there any minute and will arrest them. We've seen other people in her situation--Martha and Gregory--understanding this. But still all of Paige's behavior clearly says no, psychologically she's never connected to any reality beyond the idea that she hangs out with Claudia and Elizabeth and sometimes she goes places with Mom and does things that are about as scary as maybe buying weed or breaking into a school building after hours (which is enough to freak her out). When they show up in START she's still obviously talking exactly like she was in Munchkins where it's her parents who will be arrested and "everything that comes out of their mouth is crazy". Even having been told the FBI will be there any minute she's not afraid of that, still thinking they're the ones not thinking straight. Nobody specifically says she herself is going to be arrested but I guess they wouldn't feel they had to since they think she's going with them and P&E are the ones the FBI are chasing at that moment. But Paige's actions throughout S6 all show the same thing. She doesn't take Elizabeth's rants about putting peoples' lives in danger seriously, even after stumbling on a murder. Her punching a guy in a bar shows she's not taking any of this "cover" stuff seriously. Even the next day when her parents are freaked out she acts like they're being silly. She has no fear of drawing suspicion to herself or them with her actions, thinks she'll just not go to that bar again (what good would that even do?). She's not following up on consequences for any crimes she was actually involved in. It's like they're not happening in the actual universe. So we know that she's had certain things explained to her about treason and Russia being an actual country where people (including American traitors) live. We know she somehow still doesn't believe this stuff. It seems at times like the showrunners did want her to be seen as somehow politically motivated (her stuff about Bork) and whatever, but what comes across more believably is a sort of resigned inertia. Like it's all the same to her. She's less connected to actual events in the world than she was working with Pastor Tim. I mean, it's not like when she says, "Wait, you can't mean we're going to Russia?!" in START anybody thinks, "But wait, I thought Paige loved Russia and would be excited to go there!" because she never showed any actual interest in it. Her interest in spying was always obviously barely there--she couldn't even muster anything but a vague shrug to explain it. There were some signs about what it might have given her like the illusion of strength (how her parents got rid of Pastor Tim and the garage karate) and being part of something even if she couldn't actually see it and didn't seem to be close even with people she worked with (Elizabeth says Paige has "taken to Claudia" but I certainly didn't get the sense Paige was going to miss her). But there did seem to be some vital piece missing, especially since the whole story was leading up to her seemingly coming to some new conclusion regarding Jackson and then not leaving with her parents. Elizabeth's self-delusion about Paige makes more sense and you can see how it works. With Paige it's not even really clear what this convo about Jackson did for her. It can't just be that her mom lied since Paige's behavior suggests she doesn't care about the truth herself. (She blows off or represses Philip's attempts to be more truthful.) In some ways Paige's story is just a replay of her church thing. She got into something that made her feel special and stuck with it after she grew out of it until her dear leader was caught personally betraying her. Of course, she never seems to have thought through the danger she put the Tims in either. Even in Munchkins when she's accusing her parents of possibly kidnapping Tim, getting self-righteous at Philip for saying Tim's disappearance is a disaster for him and Elizabeth and being clearly conflicted when Alice, who she says she loves so much and did so much for her, is crying on her instead of comforting her. But there's still never really any explicit story where Paige is examining her own actions as right or wrong--at least not any further than seeing that they're right. She judges other peoples' behavior a lot, but never once has a scene where she doesn't consider herself in the right. At least not that I remember. Which is relevant given what she's actually doing. Edited August 31, 2019 by sistermagpie 3 Link to comment
Umbelina August 31, 2019 Share August 31, 2019 (edited) Well said @sistermagpie, and with great examples! We have all the stuff constantly shoved down our throats on the show about how "smart Paige is" too which just makes it all even more bizarre. She's behaving more like an extremely low IQ human or a puppy with the "spy stuff" and sorry, that just doesn't jive with her being raised in the DC area, and in Georgetown, or whatever University it was. Those two sides can't exist in the same person, not logically, not without severe psychiatric issues. She can't be studying politics, hanging out with congressional aides, and at the same time completely unaware of her surroundings or the seriousness of committing treason. She can't be living in DC metro, and out at night as lookout (and more) for the freakin' KGB, and then ignore newspapers which would undoubtedly cover the events she was involved with. It does not compute. This previously curious and snoopy character who had to know everything, and still sometimes badgers her mother about details would not simply close her mind to those details now that she's deeply involved with a country that has vowed to destroy her own country. Her very nature had to do a 180 just to make this story work. Also, it's very hard to actually care about Paige once she joined the KGB. Elizabeth's and Philip's motivations, while murky at times are clear, and they are understandable. Elizabeth the true believer, and Philip, the well and truly brainwashed/indoctrinated just now starting to break away from that and trying to discover his true self. They were raised there, it's home, idealized by Elizabeth, and still a part of Philip even though it's faded away, and at the same time he's able to see it much more clearly than his wife. The only reasons given or implied for Paige to join is that she's obviously a cult junky, and wants to be closer to mommy. WTF? So, back to logic. Even saying that I buy that Paige never paid attention to the wake of murders taking place whenever she went on missions? I can not, in any logical way, believe Paige didn't know she was committing treason, or was unaware of the penalties for treason when she got off that train. NO ONE is that naive who has an IQ above 80. NO ONE. Certainly not Paige, born and raised and at college in the DC metro, center of our government. Her drinking vodka at the end may have been some cutesy artsy thing implying she knew she was about to head to prison, but most viewers didn't take it that way. One little aside, I really wish some of the reviewers were older, and had actually lived through those times. I think a great deal was missed by applying only history lessons and today's political situation to Paige's daily realities at that time. The fear and hatred of the USSR was real, and had solid ground beneath those fears. Elizabeth shouting "fake news!" all the time in Paige's face would not have overcome all of that, not if she's as smart as the show kept telling us she is. ETA I'm not saying the USA was benign, I'm just talking about the environment Paige was raised, no one is completely immune to some sort of patriotism. This was her home, she saw the newsreels of the USSR, she heard their leaders swear to bury us, etc. Edited August 31, 2019 by Umbelina Link to comment
ripple596 August 31, 2019 Share August 31, 2019 Paige also, unbelievably, seemed to have brushed off Marilyn's death and the "all in" talk with Elizabeth. One more thing I haven't seen mentioned. Back when she first learned about Gregory, she investigated and was disturbed when she read he was a drug dealer and might rob banks but didn't mention that he "murdered an FBI agent?" 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie September 1, 2019 Share September 1, 2019 2 hours ago, Umbelina said: The only reasons given or implied for Paige to join is that she's obviously a cult junky, and wants to be closer to mommy. WTF? This is another thing that's so interesting because it's such a lame cult! I mean, the KGB had the same name recognition as a violent, villainous entity to ordinary Americans as, say, ISIS does now, but they're very different things. ISIS has things that appeal to adolescents because they're an extreme religious cult full of other young people. The KGB by 1987 didn't have anything like that appeal. You can understand where Gregory and Charles would be coming from because of what was going on and who they were politically in the 60s but by 1987 there was nothing people her age especially saw as revolutionary about the USSR, even if you didn't like the US. So it's not even giving Paige was she got from the church where she had a group of people her age being on fire for Jesus together. Paige doesn't even seem to be attracted to the stereotype Russian villain that her parents actually embody--she's not modeling herself on it. She just seems to have accepted Elizabeth's speeches about this totally being a big global movement in 1987 and listens to her stories about how special her country is. She never says anything that refers to the view of the USSR that people had at the time. Philip's like the only person in the family who seems interested in the daily life of ordinary Russians. Is she confused by Claudia's clear disapproval of Gorbachev? Wouldn't she want the two countries to come together more? (That also makes me think it's funny that all the men Henry seems to look up to outside the family also seem like Republican.) Speaking of Paige's college acquaintances, we know Jackson doesn't seem to have her cluelessness about treason. Look how freaked out he is at having been tricked into something he thinks might be treasonous. Paige is angry about Elizabeth sleeping with him, but she also spends a lot of time talking about how upset he was. Is she shocked that spies trick people like this? Surely that book on the KGB mentioned murder, blackmail etc. as well as sex? 2 hours ago, ripple596 said: Paige also, unbelievably, seemed to have brushed off Marilyn's death and the "all in" talk with Elizabeth. One more thing I haven't seen mentioned. Back when she first learned about Gregory, she investigated and was disturbed when she read he was a drug dealer and might rob banks but didn't mention that he "murdered an FBI agent?" Good point! It must be intentional that they had her make a big declaration of how she's totally ready to commit to this stuff for her entire life before quitting. Also, yeah, Marilyn is a person she works with and she just died on a job when Elizabeth apparently has told her it's very rare for people to die--does she suspect Elizabeth's lying about that too? (Marilyn is, after all, the second person Paige knows for sure has died just during these few weeks of working that appear to be her first!) I don't remember her even pressing for details about exactly how Marilyn died--and she already knows how Gregory died and should know he'd murdered an FBI agent on his way out. It's almost like a comedy--Paige might as well end up quitting because she catches Elizabeth double-parked one night and that's a bridge too far. 1 Link to comment
Roseanna September 1, 2019 Share September 1, 2019 15 hours ago, Umbelina said: We have all the stuff constantly shoved down our throats on the show about how "smart Paige is" too which just makes it all even more bizarre. She's behaving more like an extremely low IQ human or a puppy with the "spy stuff" and sorry, that just doesn't jive with her being raised in the DC area, and in Georgetown, or whatever University it was. Well, intelligence isn't the same as wisdom in life. An American youth with the Finnish roots came to Helsinki in the 70ies and studied sociology at university, He seems have been an idealist and wanted study also in Moscow and went to the Soviet embassy. He got a Soviet "friend" with and they met in the in the restaurants and he was flattered and given presents. He also visited his "friend's" home, bought roses to his "friend's" wife and took his son swimming. The requests he was asked were f.ex. a list about Americans in Finland and then more information about some of them (family, work, hobbies, if they used drugs). It was also suggested that instead of becoming a diplomat, he would get work in a computer company. And he seems to have suspected nothing as he wrote all meetings in his calendar. Reading this real life story, I think the Paige's arc had been more likely if all that obvious spy stuff she was so bad had been left out and her job had been to prepare for the future by making friends with her co-workers and discreetly collecting backround information about them as well as by studing hard in order to be chosen to work f.ex. in the State Department. Of course Henry would be much better in both tasks but unlike him, Paige could have made to believe that she would work for the benefit of both countries and the world peace. Link to comment
Roseanna September 1, 2019 Share September 1, 2019 15 hours ago, ripple596 said: Paige also, unbelievably, seemed to have brushed off Marilyn's death and the "all in" talk with Elizabeth. One more thing I haven't seen mentioned. Back when she first learned about Gregory, she investigated and was disturbed when she read he was a drug dealer and might rob banks but didn't mention that he "murdered an FBI agent?" 10 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Good point! It must be intentional that they had her make a big declaration of how she's totally ready to commit to this stuff for her entire life before quitting. Also, yeah, Marilyn is a person she works with and she just died on a job when Elizabeth apparently has told her it's very rare for people to die--does she suspect Elizabeth's lying about that too? (Marilyn is, after all, the second person Paige knows for sure has died just during these few weeks of working that appear to be her first!) I don't remember her even pressing for details about exactly how Marilyn died--and she already knows how Gregory died and should know he'd murdered an FBI agent on his way out. It's almost like a comedy--Paige might as well end up quitting because she catches Elizabeth double-parked one night and that's a bridge too far. Good analysis, both! I want only to add that things like that show also how good Martha's story was. She realized that the suicide of her co-worker wasn't real but her husband had killed him and she was terrified - and yet love was again most important to her. Link to comment
sistermagpie September 1, 2019 Share September 1, 2019 3 hours ago, Roseanna said: Reading this real life story, I think the Paige's arc had been more likely if all that obvious spy stuff she was so bad had been left out and her job had been to prepare for the future by making friends with her co-workers and discreetly collecting backround information about them as well as by studing hard in order to be chosen to work f.ex. in the State Department. Yes, in a way it seems like they had to intentionally avoid that because Paige honestly didn't understand how central that sort of thing was. That is, she reported what her teacher said in class and seemed to make a connection when it came to passing along information one might get from a friend or boyfriend. But everyone noted in S6 how Paige wasn't being prepared much at all to live undercover. She also seemed to be buying Elizabeth's implication that you just got people to trust you honestly--even if you were using a different name and were in disguise--and they shared things with you and then you reported them for the good of the world. As opposed to intentionally misrepresenting yourself or hurting people to get information the person would not give you freely, like she finally saw happen with Jackson. Or like with Young-Hee etc. She says she wants to make a difference but it's not like she seems to feel like she is doing that in S6. She's not even asking what they're doing. In the show it kind of worked since Elizabeth was intentionally trying to keep her away from all that before assuming she'd get that job at the State Department where she'd just xerox things and go home. It made sense if you understand Paige's whole "career" was a flimsy charade that was crumbling on all sides. So the only manipulation of people Paige had to do was be cute to attract guys--which she wasn't actually good at. (The manipulation part. In both her interactions with guys the guy manipulates Paige into the reaction he's going for.) 3 hours ago, Roseanna said: I want only to add that things like that show also how good Martha's story was. She realized that the suicide of her co-worker wasn't real but her husband had killed him and she was terrified - and yet love was again most important to her. It really was. You believed every step. Martha's story on the surface it seemed like it was all about how she didn't know what was really going on, but then she'd have moments where she revealed she understood more than she'd admitted (she knew Clark wore a toupee, knew the bug was a bad thing, suspected Clark was KGB, suspected Jennifer was something else to him, knew he was actually a Russian Illegal--all these things she knew before they were told to her). Paige was the opposite. She'd be told things so you assume she knew them, but then it would turn out she still didn't know them even if they were spelled out. And that's certainly a thing that could really happen IRL, but when Martha revealed something she knew it was a surprise that felt right. With Paige it was just confusing. I can accept that she's got reasons to be willfully ignorant--Martha was too. But I understood how Martha was making it work in her mind and why--and why certain things motivated her to understand or admit to understanding more. Paige has a whole speech about how she's actually "always known" but I don't feel institutionally what she means. That is, I understand how it fits in with her throwing herself into committing treason for this person she always felt was lying, especially when she had this other person (Philip) making it clear he thinks she's making a mistake. With Martha I could understand how what she was getting out of it trumped all the rest, but with Paige I really didn't. Link to comment
Roseanna September 2, 2019 Share September 2, 2019 On 9/1/2019 at 7:29 PM, sistermagpie said: how Paige wasn't being prepared much at all to live undercover. Actually, she wasn't meat to do that (at least not in the sense her parents did). The whole point to reruit the next generation was that they could legally enter the CIA, the State Department etc. It would have been a big error to use in tasks other agents could do and thus endanger the job only they could do. If, in this phase, Paige had made friends with her co-students and collect personal information, somebody else would then given the task who of her friends, if any, could be tried to recruit and what method would be best. Link to comment
sistermagpie September 2, 2019 Share September 2, 2019 3 hours ago, Roseanna said: Actually, she wasn't meat to do that (at least not in the sense her parents did). The whole point to reruit the next generation was that they could legally enter the CIA, the State Department etc. It would have been a big error to use in tasks other agents could do and thus endanger the job only they could do. If, in this phase, Paige had made friends with her co-students and collect personal information, somebody else would then given the task who of her friends, if any, could be tried to recruit and what method would be best. Oh, I know. But even in that situation she'd be undercover in the sense that she's pretending to be loyal to the US when she's really working for Russia. And her actions showed that she wasn't anywhere near as careful about hiding that as she should have been. She says "duh" when Elizabeth asks her if she bought her KGB books with cash, but then reveals to an entire bar full of people where she's familiar that she's been taught how to throw a punch and rolls her eyes at her parents freaking out about it. Her parents who throw out pork and cabbage because they were in golubtsy. Plus she blunders into a scene where a gun went off yelling, "Mom!" when she's not only not supposed to be near that area but she's certainly not supposed to let anyone know that this person is her daughter. Marilyn probably already suspected their relationship, frankly. Paige seems to think that as long as she doesn't announce that she supports the KGB and thinks the USSR has the right idea she's keeping her cover, but that's at least 2 giant blunders in a few weeks (really 3 since she dealt with losing her ID by just telling her mom about it and accepting that shit just happens sometimes). 1 Link to comment
Umbelina September 2, 2019 Share September 2, 2019 (edited) That's just another reason I find Paige an unbelievable character @sistermagpie though. Honestly, I knew more than Paige when I was 14! Also, I was certainly not born, raised, and currently going to a prestigious school in our nations center of government! Obviously I was not being "trained/groomed" by two of the very best KGB spies in existence (Claudia and Elizabeth!) Seriously, you have to fan-wank the hell out of Paige for this to make one bit of sense, and I can fan-wank with the best of them, but Paige stretched that credibility to unattainable for me. So, sadly, I just had to completely stop caring about Paige, and since the big finale was supposed to be this heartbreaking scene of her leaving her parents? While Keri Russel sold the hell out of it from her side of it? I didn't honestly care, because I wasn't invested in this poorly written character. Actually, to say "poorly written" is such a rather polite understatement, and "unbelievable" doesn't do it justice either, since that word is used so often. Paige simply could not exist as written. At all. Now, they could have taken this story and made it good, the whole second generation spy thing could have been very compelling, but that would have meant spending even more time with Paige, and it would have certainly meant a much longer final season. The first, spending more time with Paige could have been OK, but serious changes would have to be made. I think the best option would have been for Paige to have her "gung ho, rah rah KGB! Down with the USA!" scenes with Elizabeth and Claudia. Add in Claudia showing doubts, possibly even Claudia/Marilyn conversations about Paige's incompetence or something. THEN, add in Paige's "is this going to be OK? What about treason? I don't know if I can do this, or want to..." doubts and conversations with her FATHER. I never bought the whole Philip stays hands off with his only daughter anyway, and this might have added a well needed balance and reality to her situation...show the two sides to this monumental decision! I don't think Holly Taylor is a strong enough actress, but I do think Rhys and Russel could have carried her through those scenes and done the heavy lifting. As far as the second? The longer season? That would have been very nice, but I think it was avoided because honestly, the stories made no sense, if the season had been a normal season, the writers would have had to do the work they obviously were avoiding. Instead they went for visuals, more murders than ever before, and their "no ending ending" which will apparently always annoy me. I tried rewatching the final two seasons recently, and while they were less horrible than during the first watch? Compared to earlier season, which prided themselves on making sense along with the emotion, tension, and visuals? Still a let down. I don't need a 20 minute music video, and as THE ending to this fabulous show it was beyond annoying, but the writers did. Without that they would have to address the bleak outlook for every main character on screen other than Aderholt. Much easier for them to leave actually endings out of it all, but why they had to put EVERY main character in peril and then leave them there? It's just beyond my comprehension. Had Stan not colluded, and not had a probably Russian Spy wife? Hey, maybe a future for him. Had Elizabeth killed Claudia? Hey maybe she and Philip would at least live out their lives in the USSR, they could have lied to the KGB coup people, but since Claudia is alive, the KGB already know Elizabeth betrayed them. Had Oleg the slightest chance of a trade, or his father not been used for those phone messages? Hey, maybe his mom, dad, wife, child, and even Oleg could have, if not a great, at least a decent future. Had Henry turned 18, and already secured his scholarships? Hey maybe he wouldn't become a ward of the state, and he'd just have to deal with the fallout of his entire family being KGB murders who tried to bring down his country and murdered many innocent US citizens. As for Paige going to prison? Good riddance and well deserved. Someone that stupid should not be walking around with sane people. Edited September 2, 2019 by Umbelina Link to comment
sistermagpie September 3, 2019 Share September 3, 2019 3 hours ago, Umbelina said: Now, they could have taken this story and made it good, the whole second generation spy thing could have been very compelling, but that would have meant spending even more time with Paige, and it would have certainly meant a much longer final season. I was thinking in reading this convo how it might have worked if they'd just not made Paige a spy and instead just had her getting to the point in life where she was genuinely having problems with whatever her mother was doing. I don't know if this would have been better or anything, but like if rather than Paige being all in if Elizabeth was just convinced that she was on the verge of going to work. Like maybe have her starting on something that isn't a serious job yet, having her pick something up as if it's a job and she still makes the same mistakes. So it's still a real job but the type of job that can be used for training. And rather than her having these Russian club meetings where she's allegedly all in (she does claim to be rah-rah KGB in a way when she says the other kids just don't get how capitalism blah blah blah...like Elizabeth and Claudia are always saying) it could just be Elizabeth telling her stuff, maybe even have her bring Philip into the conversations. But instead of Paige having committed herself she's becoming more and more turned off. It wouldn't even have to include her directly challenging her with political discussions, just pointed "Why?" or "How?" that Elizabeth can't answer well. Maybe signs that Paige sees her mother expecting her to be somebody other than the American she is. So when Paige then hears about Jackson's it's more like she's been feeling more and more repulsed by the whole thing. Like I said, I'm not convinced this would be better and it's just a vague idea, but it would avoid the elephant in the room that nobody ever answered in S6 which was how on earth decide to do this. Because it could maybe be played as something that Paige decided was the thing to do back when she was 16 but now that it was coming time for her to actually commit treason to help the USSR and she was 19 she was getting serious cold feet but of course her mom just considers it a done deal. We could still have scenes like the ones in Harvest and J,E. It wouldn't require everything to be more about politics than it was. 1 1 Link to comment
Roseanna September 5, 2019 Share September 5, 2019 If I remember right, Paige was suspicious and asked questions and didn't believe her parents' answers until she and Elizabeth were attacked by the robbers and Elizabeth killed one of them. I must confess that I never understood that it was presented as if Paige begun to think that Elizabeth's fughting skill were after all useful - as if killing a person would be okay for obviously Elizabeth was so skilled in self-defence that she could have prevented the attack without killing. Link to comment
Umbelina September 5, 2019 Share September 5, 2019 3 hours ago, Roseanna said: If I remember right, Paige was suspicious and asked questions and didn't believe her parents' answers until she and Elizabeth were attacked by the robbers and Elizabeth killed one of them. I must confess that I never understood that it was presented as if Paige begun to think that Elizabeth's fughting skill were after all useful - as if killing a person would be okay for obviously Elizabeth was so skilled in self-defence that she could have prevented the attack without killing. I can't remember the name of the type of self defense Elizabeth used, but it is indeed designed to kill or disable as quickly as possible. It's not some gentle martial arts skill like judo or Akido. They mentioned the style in a commentary or extra. As far as that fight? I think Elizabeth did have to kill him, she was not just defending herself against two attackers, she was defending her useless and helpless daughter. She wasn't about to get fancy. If anything, Paige's presence would cause her to end it faster, because it became much more dangerous. 2 Link to comment
Domestic Assassin September 6, 2019 Share September 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Umbelina said: I can't remember the name of the type of self defense Elizabeth used, but it is indeed designed to kill or disable as quickly as possible. It's not some gentle martial arts skill like judo or Akido. They mentioned the style in a commentary or extra. As far as that fight? I think Elizabeth did have to kill him, she was not just defending herself against two attackers, she was defending her useless and helpless daughter. She wasn't about to get fancy. If anything, Paige's presence would cause her to end it faster, because it became much more dangerous. Systema. 1 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie September 6, 2019 Share September 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: As far as that fight? I think Elizabeth did have to kill him, she was not just defending herself against two attackers, she was defending her useless and helpless daughter. She wasn't about to get fancy. If anything, Paige's presence would cause her to end it faster, because it became much more dangerous. Yeah, I had a lot of problems with Elizabeth's superpowers as the series went on, but this particular scene made perfect sense to me. The guy grabbed her and had a knife to her neck, she grabbed his hand drove the knife back into his own neck. The knife was a weapon that would work on a bigger guy and it would be totally unbelievable for her to be able to just disable the guy, not to mention his friend who was already getting ready to get back up off the ground, without killing him. She was right when she told Paige she had to kill him. I think for Paige that was probably part of it. Not only did Elizabeth's murder terrify her and traumatize her, but I think ultimately she was so scared that beating something until it was dead was a plus. Overkill is a comfort when you're really scared. She basically did that with the guy in the bar. After the initial shock of hitting him and him hitting her back he froze and just stood there and she kept beating at a guy who wasn't fighting back until he fell, then sucker punched his apologetic friend for good measure. This is what Philip understands when he tries to talk to her about it. He took down the two bullies and kept bashing the kid's head long after he was down. But both Philip and Elizabeth were actually defending themselves against real physical danger, at least at the start. Paige was just, as ever, jumpy as a rabbit and aggrieved with a physical reflex after drilling to know how to spin and hit out whenever someone grabbed her arm, whether it was the nice guy in the bar, the jerk in the bar or Matthew, who she shoved hard earlier. (And remember how Matthew was shocked by what she did, showing just how much attention this sort of thing draws.) The bar, unlike the parking lot, wasn't a situation where it was right to use as much force as possible, considering her situation. Paige was lucky the drunk guy took a weak swing at her in response to the first hit (which Paige can't even blame on pure panic--she had a clear moment to control her emotions and yank her arm away and decided her satisfaction was the priority, despite having a cover to protect) and then simply stands there not fighting back, his arms dangling at his sides. I think he even doesn't connect too hard on his hit (it's hard to tell, but it looks like he's not hitting her with his fist either) because he just misses her. She doesn't do any dodging like Philip does later. 4 Link to comment
sistermagpie September 6, 2019 Share September 6, 2019 (edited) Just to add to that scene, because I re-watched the sequence to make sure what happened, and the follow-up in the garage is interesting because Paige misrepresents things. One could wonder if she's intentionally lying to cover up what she did to Elizabeth, but I don't think that's the case. It's not directed/played as if she's lying and it fits more with the pattern of her behavior--and is way more interesting--if she's simply incapable of giving an objective report of what happened. Another huge red flag given her chosen profession. The scene eventually devolves into Paige successfully derailing the argument by sulkily saying that she "gets it" and will never fight anyone again unless they're attacking her and then yelling at Elizabeth for "never stopping" and being on her ass all the time. The only moment of something like regret she expresses is an actually defiant, "I know what you're saying but it happened. I'm sorry." And that's in response to Elizabeth, in Paige's eyes, being a bitch rather than even a glimmer of comprehension about the danger of what she did. It seems like she just came over for tough commiseration and is indignant at not getting it. But the convo about the actual details is this: Paige: These two assholes started a fight with me. Me: Not true, though one guy provoked her and he did put his hand on her. Elizabeth: But could you have just left? Paige: I was leaving. They were drunk. One of them put their hands on me. Me: "I was leaving" dodges Elizabeth's question and is just bringing it back to her being the victim here. The truth is she could have just left. She's making it sound here as if she was targeted by two slurring, aggressive guys physically, which is not giving an accurate description. If the first guy was so drunk, she probably wouldn't have been happily chatting him up. (An important detail given the whole "do they know your name?" aspect of questioning). Elizabeth: That was your only option? There wasn't a bouncer or the bartender? Paige: No, Mom, it happened fast. Me: Totally not true. Not only were there other people she could have looked to for help if she needed it, she probably didn't need it. It also didn't really happen that fast. She specifically has a moment where she makes the decision to turn around and punch the guy rather than, say, yell at him to GTF off her and pull her hand away. Elizabeth: Was the bar crowded? Paige: Sort of. Me: That's true. Possibly because Elizabeth's question catches her off-guard, like she hadn't thought before this moment about the other people in the bar because it wasn't part of the story in her head. She has to think about it when Elizabeth asks. She's not lying to try to say what would be better for Elizabeth. Elizabeth: How many people saw the fight? Paige: (sighing) I don't know. Elizabeth: That's not an answer. Paige: I didn't exactly stop to count! Me: You know who would have counted? Philip and Elizabeth. Maybe not to a person, but they would not be in a bar without being able to tell you an approximate crowd size, including where people were grouped so they'd know who would have probably had a good view. I know Paige isn't P&E, but this is the spycraft 101 she keeps failing at. She should be more aware of her surroundings than somebody with no training and she never is. She didn't notice at the time and hasn't thought about it after what happened. So In Paige's version two drunken guys just started a fight with her. She was leaving and one of them put his hands on her. There was no one around who could help. It happened fast, she didn't have time to do anything else. Superficially, of course, it's just Paige justifying herself to Elizabeth. But it really doesn't seem like she's trying to lie about the actual events as she remembers them. She didn't seem to come in with any eye to addressing her parents' actual concerns about the incident, either by lying or not. She didn't even report it herself. She just went over obviously upset and asking for sparring and then allowed Elizabeth to ask out of concern, as if the incident only mattered to Paige herself and has nothing to do with her parents' and her position. I think in her mind this is how she by now remembers the whole thing. She wasn't talking to a guy she liked who had an asshole friend who provoked her and even grabbed her arm, so she punched him even when he wasn't fighting her. It was two drunk assholes who ambushed her. There was no one around who could have helped and she had no other options than to hit them both. Either her fear and anger (still strong enough she needs to spar the next day) has distorted events or this, to Paige, is what it looks like to not have any other options. She did it, so therefore it was what she had to do. This attitude isn't all that unusual in people, but it's seriously dangerous for somebody who claims to be a spy. In one incident she proves that not only can she not control her emotions and will drop her cover on a whim (again) without regret or understanding but she also can't accurately report on her actions or surroundings, even when it matters. Edited September 6, 2019 by sistermagpie 3 Link to comment
Roseanna September 12, 2019 Share September 12, 2019 I find something interesting in The Road to Unfreedom: Russia, Europe, America by Timothy Snyder which can explain Claudia's attitudes and perhaps also those of Elizabeth. Snyder writes that the myth of October Revolution anticipated the imaginitive future where men would be brothers. But in the 70ies Brezhnev stopped to talk about the victory of Communism and instead began to talk "real socialism". When the Soviet citizens could no more wait for coming improvements, nostalgy had to fill the vacuum. Brezhnev replaced the promise of perfection in the future with the cult of Stalin and his leadership in the WW2. The story of revolution tells about the inevitable future, the memory of war about the eternal past. This past must be with any stains, the Soviet Union had been only an offer and therefore the war began only in 1941. Even more: the aim to remember the Great Patriotoc War was to demonstrate that the Fascists would again and again attack from the West, in order to destroy the Soviet Union, or simply Russia. The policy of radical hope gave away to the policy of bottonless fear which justified huge expences to ordinary and nuclear weapons. The great military parades on the Red Square were meant to show that the Soviet Union can't be changed. Reading this, I understood why Claudia never talks about the better world (unlike Elizabeth), only about the war and the constant struggle. She is caught in the past and to her, the best possible aim is status quo. 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie September 13, 2019 Share September 13, 2019 6 hours ago, Roseanna said: Reading this, I understood why Claudia never talks about the better world (unlike Elizabeth), only about the war and the constant struggle. She is caught in the past and to her, the best possible aim is status quo. That's interesting when you consider that Elizabeth is younger than Claudia yet Claudia seems further away from that great hope pov. Though it's not surprising--Claudia also seems like one of those people for whom WWII was the most meaningful time in their life. She said she was married and it feels in my mind like the war completely blew up what used to be a more conservative, ordinary life. The Claudia we know was born in WWII even though she was already an adult. And Elizabeth was a teenager in the 60s--she really does want the whole world. Claudia's attitude also seems so dangerous because since she's always about defending from invasion it's easy for her to start saying other people aren't really "one of us." Paige is American, so she'd never count. Gregory wouldn't have in the end. Philip's Russian, but he doesn't hate the enemy enough. Even Gabriel would probably be seen to have gone soft. In the end even Elizabeth falls short. It really is cool how the show was able to set up that contrast in S6 where the old guard vs. reformers aren't just reflected in Philip and Elizabeth because Philip's more open to the US, but that there's also this set up where Elizabeth and Claudia have this whole set up where they glorify the past for Paige. Elizabeth is desperate to believe that it's possible to drag Paige there with her, but it's clearly not happening. That makes me think about if there's any parallels to Philip and in a way there is with Henry if you think of Henry trying to get Philip to talk to his friends' dads etc. It's like here Claudia is trying to bring Elizabeth into her past world (Elizabeth seems to more be just fooling herself she's doing that with Paige, who's really only focused on her own future) Henry's heading into the future very very American capitalist St. Edwards future and inviting Philip into it with him. But Philip isn't just thrilled to grab onto that chance. He seems more wanting to put on the breaks and figure out what he wants to do, and that's Oleg. Likewise when Elizabeth finally thinks or herself she's not with Claudia. Philip and Elizabeth aren't completely in agreement about the country, but they're closer to each other than these other people. Elizabeth isn't ready to just reject the modern USSR and work against it, Philip isn't ready to let the USSR go and look at it from the perspective of an immigrant. 1 2 Link to comment
Umbelina September 13, 2019 Share September 13, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, sistermagpie said: That makes me think about if there's any parallels to Philip and in a way there is with Henry if you think of Henry trying to get Philip to talk to his friends' dads etc. It's like here Claudia is trying to bring Elizabeth into her past world (Elizabeth seems to more be just fooling herself she's doing that with Paige, who's really only focused on her own future) Henry's heading into the future very very American capitalist St. Edwards future and inviting Philip into it with him. But Philip isn't just thrilled to grab onto that chance. He seems more wanting to put on the breaks and figure out what he wants to do, and that's Oleg. Likewise when Elizabeth finally thinks or herself she's not with Claudia. Philip and Elizabeth aren't completely in agreement about the country, but they're closer to each other than these other people. Elizabeth isn't ready to just reject the modern USSR and work against it, Philip isn't ready to let the USSR go and look at it from the perspective of an immigrant. Very interesting post. I do disagree with this part though, not completely, but in one major way. I think Philip would have been VERY happy to "just let the USSR go." What he was unable to "let go" was Elizabeth. I don't think he really failed at being an American, and there are many ways to be an American that don't involve being a whiz at Capitalism. He expanded too fast at the travel agency, at that ONE job he was failing, but there were many reasons for that. Cast adrift by Elizabeth, no longer being a team there, or even in her life in any significant way, including raising their children threw him. He certainly isn't the first to have a business fail in the USA, or to misjudge a market. It happens every day, (I'm going to limit this to THOSE times, and leave out the current mess we are in. I'm not a fan of Capitalism, but I am a fan of democracy, and I think Philip was as well. It's the difference between economic systems and political systems. Democracy vs Oligarchy/Totalitarianism.) Anyway, Philip never had the chance or promise of "The American Way." In the USSR he would have been assigned a job and that job would have nothing to do with what Philip might desire. He was chosen for a PRIMO job, the KGB, as a teenager, and would have been a fool to turn that down. However if he was not exceptional, or hadn't been spotted as exceptional, he would have been assigned as a bus driver, or factory worker, a farmer, a prison guard like his daddy, a doctor, or whatever the USSR told him he would be. In the USA though, Philip only HAD to be a Travel Agent because of the USSR/KGB (which were increasingly the same thing.) He was never allowed to really quit the KGB, not in the same way he would have been had they defected as he wanted. He was still maintaining the Travel Agency "cover" for both him and Elizabeth. He was always still "IN" since his wife, and now even his daughter were "IN." That is very, very, very different that Philip being or living a true USA life, and able to make his own choices about a job, and able to live without the KGB in his life forever (via Elizabeth and Paige, and his relationship with Kimmie.) Had they defected as he wanted to, it's true that he would be in hiding, at least until the USSR fell, which as we know will happen very shortly after the show ends. Still, the USA would make every effort to include Philip's wishes about his choice of job after relocation, after all, maintaining cover would be easier if he was doing something he liked or was good at. Aside from all of that, money, for him (or "them") would not have been an issue, and he could also do things he enjoyed in his private life, coaching sports, or taking more mathematics classes, or having one of the many jobs available that called for those particular skills and interests eventually if he wanted that. Frankly, his mathematics and computer skills may have led him to something in that field, creating software or the like and he'd be a billionaire by now. He could have become involved in any of a number of charity projects as well, to help the downtrodden, to include his concern for "the masses" or even to change/influence politics here. Supporting candidates who had goals he shared, etc. That's the thing though, eventually it would have been what he wanted, not a job that the KGB ordered him to do. A few years after the USSR fell, many, many people defected, including former KGB, to the USA. He wouldn't have been that big a concern to the remaining KGB in Russia, they had bigger issues, and much more money to be made, Philip would have been a fly, one of many, not worth going after. Philip's fatal flaw was his obsession with Elizabeth and inability to save himself, or his children from her fanaticism, her inability to even let their constant lies or the basic lie penetrate her patriotism. The wheat, the biological weapons they swore they only wanted in order to protect themselves and instead, after Phil and Liz got them, used on civilians in Afghanistan, and the biggest lie of all, that "equality" and "justice" were still the goals of the USSR. That true socialism ever mattered to those at the top of the corrupt KGB or USSR was the biggest lie of all, as they filled their pockets and bellies while the majority of soviets struggled to survive. In addition of course, he had no idea that his wife had told everything to their handler, and that returning to the USSR was a certain death sentence for both of them. Philip was smart, and not a brainwashed fool, had Elizabeth told him the truth, there is no way in hell he would have willingly walked into certain death, or let his obsession walk into that death. Both economic systems have good and bad features, and of course democracy is vulnerable to oligarchy as well, but totalitarianism is purely that from the jump. Democracy has a chance to right itself. I can see why Russia had that revolution, and it had SUCH promise in the beginning. I can also, simply looking at history, see how frightened that made capitalists who were at the top of their systems in Western countries fight to keep socialism away, why they used the state to kill those who organized into unions for rights of safety/wages/elimination of child workers, etc. We can easily see how the actions of the west killed the promise that was the October Revolution and, in some ways, forced the situations that subverted those goals, including the treatment of Russia during the war. I can also of course see that the serfdom system that had gone on forever under the Czars left a vacuum that people like Stalin easily filled. It's a sad story of promise that, for many reasons, ultimately failed, some of those reasons were the deliberate actions of the richest capitalists in the USA and Europe. Claudia was too young for the October Revolution though, it was WWII that shaped and formed her zeal, and her understandable hatred of the West. Elizabeth though? Was a young child in WWII, and indoctrinated by the KGB quite well, as was, of course Philip. The main difference between Philip and Elizabeth though, wasn't really ideology, and it certainly wasn't what Elizabeth sneeringly assumed and accused Philip of wanting, "the easy life." It was that Philip was willing to open his eyes and ears and see what was really happening around him and in his former country. Elizabeth, the true fanatic/patriot refused to do that, steadfastly refused to accept that the problems at "home" were even worse than the problems in the USA for average citizens. Maybe Paige's groupie/convert tendencies were inherited. Elizabeth certainly had them too. Edited September 13, 2019 by Umbelina added stuff Link to comment
sistermagpie September 13, 2019 Share September 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: I think Philip would have been VERY happy to "just let the USSR go." What he was unable to "let go" was Elizabeth. I can't square him being ready to let it go with a storyline where he gets involved in a plot to save Gorbachev, potentially from Elizabeth herself. 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: I don't think he really failed at being an American, and there are many ways to be an American that don't involve being a whiz at Capitalism. I agree. I don't even think he failed at Capitalism. Even on the show itself Henry says that his friend's father, who's clearly a very successful businessman, had failed businesses. He'd been running a successful one for years anyway before he expanded too fast etc. To me that story isn't about him failing but, as MR says, realizing that this specific version of life isn't for him. I think that's why he's resistant to Henry's encouraging him to talk to these other guys. Part of it's probably awkwardness, sure, but I think it's also just that he was questioning why he'd expanded and whether this was something he really wanted to put his effort into and it wasn't. He wasn't particularly fulfilled by the business getting bigger even if it had succeeded. The person he speaks about it most honestly, imo, is Kimmie when he says, as Jim, that he's thinking of doing something in his fake lawyer career that's more helping people. That's the kind of career that suits him better. Of course, that career isn't specifically American or Russian. He's not choosing a country by not wanting the business career. I agree with I think it was @scartact who described Philip as the type of person who never felt completely belonging to either of the two countries. I expect he would always feel that way throughout his life. But I think his attachment to his home country was real and true to him and that it was part of his love for Elizabeth more than the other way around, with his love for Elizabeth being the only thing that kept him attached to his country. If that was the case his actions in S6 alone would be completely different because none of them line up with those priorities. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina September 13, 2019 Share September 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I can't square him being ready to let it go with a storyline where he gets involved in a plot to save Gorbachev, potentially from Elizabeth herself. Wanting a better life for people in his country is VERY different from wanting to go back there. OF COURSE he would do that, and probably many non-soviets would have as well. That is very different from thinking the regime itself, the organization he still belonged to, the KGB, was fighting a noble fight, indeed, the KGB was the one trying to stop reforms. Reforms that would make the USSR more like the USA by the way. Yeah, Philip supported THAT. Which if anything shows that he was happier with the USA life for average people than he was for the soviet's. Also, frankly, he was tired of being on the sidelines, bored, worried about his failures at the travel agency, a job he never chose, and initially his response was to simply tell his obsession, ELIZABETH all about it, but she would not listen. 9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I agree with I think it was @scartact who described Philip as the type of person who never felt completely belonging to either of the two countries. I expect he would always feel that way throughout his life. But I think his attachment to his home country was real and true to him and that it was part of his love for Elizabeth more than the other way around, with his love for Elizabeth being the only thing that kept him attached to his country. If that was the case his actions in S6 alone would be completely different because none of them line up with those priorities. He never had the chance to try. His obsession with Elizabeth nipped that possibility in the bud. Now he's dead, by the same people he served all those years, and for all of their nefarious and untruthful reasons. Woo. Link to comment
sistermagpie September 14, 2019 Share September 14, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, Umbelina said: Wanting a better life for people in his country is VERY different from wanting to go back there. OF COURSE he would do that, and probably many non-soviets would have as well. He didn't just want things to be better, he risked everything to affect things going on there just like Oleg did. I'm not saying he wanted to pull up stakes and move back to the USSR, but he was certainly willing to risk his life in the US for his country. Non-Soviet Stan didn't care what happened over there. Quote Also, frankly, he was tired of being on the sidelines, bored, worried about his failures at the travel agency, a job he never chose, and initially his response was to simply tell his obsession, ELIZABETH all about it, but she would not listen. Yes, his initial thought was to tell his wife (whose own patriotism he believed in) what was going on, but her attitude made him consider that maybe she would support this coup so Philip chose to not tell her and choose Oleg and what he thought was best for the country over her--as he himself explicitly says. He didn't do that out of boredom or out of obsession with Elizabeth. That guy would have been working with her on Dead Hand and told her about Oleg. Edited September 14, 2019 by sistermagpie 1 1 Link to comment
Umbelina September 14, 2019 Share September 14, 2019 In the end, the bottom line was, he risked everything to make the USSR more like the USA. Now if Elizabeth had only lied to Claudia and told her she would kill the guy tomorrow, and then killed Claudia instead? Philip and Elizabeth at least would probably have a cushy life back in the USSR, even though both of their children are screwed, but...she didn't do either of those basic common sense things. Link to comment
Roseanna September 15, 2019 Share September 15, 2019 On 9/13/2019 at 10:02 PM, Umbelina said: He was chosen for a PRIMO job, the KGB, as a teenager, and would have been a fool to turn that down. I think Philip, just like Elizabeth, accepted the job offered by the KGB because they had been manipulated from the childhood on. Andrei Saharov really had a top job and all all priviledges the Soviet elite, but he gave up all that in order to follow his conscience. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina September 15, 2019 Share September 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Roseanna said: I think Philip, just like Elizabeth, accepted the job offered by the KGB because they had been manipulated from the childhood on. Andrei Saharov really had a top job and all all priviledges the Soviet elite, but he gave up all that in order to follow his conscience. Philip's family was very poor. To get an offer from the KGB was like hitting the jackpot in the USSR. For Elizabeth, not quite as poor, it was the whole honor of the thing and also making up for her father's "desertion." I put "desertion" in quotes because when her father was shot, it wouldn't have mattered if he only had a shovel against tanks, hadn't had food or water for days, and was overrun by the enemy. Anyone surrendering or falling back was a traitor to be shot. It's quite possible he would have died either way. Still, it was a stain on Elizabeth's honor, and serving her country in the KGB could reverse that. Actually, even with the spying and the murdering, they probably ended up having better lives than their contemporaries back home, friends, Philip's brother, etc. Shorter lives perhaps because of Elizabeth's mistakes and stubbornness, but all in all, they ate well, they had electricity, running water all the time, weren't sharing their home with several other families, their kids had decent schools and clothes to wear, as did they. Henry never had to kill other boys after walking a few miles for the family's ration of milk. Far better than Philip's earlier life when his father brought home torn and bloody clothing and boots for his wife to wash and mend (probably from prisoners who were shot.) Link to comment
Roseanna September 15, 2019 Share September 15, 2019 On 9/13/2019 at 10:02 PM, Umbelina said: I can see why Russia had that revolution, and it had SUCH promise in the beginning. I can also, simply looking at history, see how frightened that made capitalists who were at the top of their systems in Western countries fight to keep socialism away, why they used the state to kill those who organized into unions for rights of safety/wages/elimination of child workers, etc. We can easily see how the actions of the west killed the promise that was the October Revolution and, in some ways, forced the situations that subverted those goals, including the treatment of Russia during the war. I can also of course see that the serfdom system that had gone on forever under the Czars left a vacuum that people like Stalin easily filled. It's a sad story of promise that, for many reasons, ultimately failed, some of those reasons were the deliberate actions of the richest capitalists in the USA and Europe. It was not the Bolshevik coup that had a real promise but the former people's revolution. But it's likely that there was no positive option to Russia because a civil society hadn't developed there. Lenin's promises were all deliberate lies. He promised peace, but his earlier slogan "change the imperialistic war to the civil war" was more honest: if you take the power supported by a quarter if the population (as the only free elections, those of Assemply for making constitution after the Bolshevik coup showed) you just can't expect that the all others just accept it. Lenin also promised land for peasants, but that was never meant to be permanent for the ideal society of the peasants were opposite than that of the Bolsheviks. Lenin's slogan "all power to the Soviets" never meant power to the ordinary people but undivided power to the Bolshevik party. Not even in the hour of the greatest danger Lenin accepted other Socialists in his government. Ultimately, the whole concept that all peole would live in perfect harmony and that goal could be reached by terror, was teenagers' dream. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina September 15, 2019 Share September 15, 2019 (edited) It certainly wasn't just teenagers though. I just watched REDS again, and though it's certainly not definitive about those times, or even the problems in the USA at that time, it still had quite a bit of truth to it. Intelligent people from other countries also believed in a system where workers were equals and massive wealth didn't just all go to a few people, and instead was more widely shared, with all work considered as honorable. There were many many factors that led to it all not succeeding of course, but I don't think it was childish. They didn't want to be dragged into the BS WWI either, which was another (of many) factors. Edited September 15, 2019 by Umbelina Link to comment
Roseanna September 15, 2019 Share September 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: Actually, even with the spying and the murdering, they probably ended up having better lives than their contemporaries back home, friends, Philip's brother, etc. Shorter lives perhaps because of Elizabeth's mistakes and stubbornness, but all in all, they ate well, they had electricity, running water all the time, weren't sharing their home with several other families, their kids had decent schools and clothes to wear, as did they. Henry never had to kill other boys after walking a few miles for the family's ration of milk. Far better than Philip's earlier life when his father brought home torn and bloody clothing and boots for his wife to wash and mend (probably from prisoners who were shot.) Then Philip would have morality of just the same kind as his father: nothing matters than your own interests and it's OK to kill others for that. Only, Philip's poor father had much better reasons as his family suffered from hunger (although I doubt that guards's families had so bad irl) whereas Philip was really the lowest of human beings if his motives was electricity and running water. 1 Link to comment
Roseanna September 15, 2019 Share September 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: It certainly wasn't just teenagers though. I just watched REDS again, and though it's certainly not definitive about those times, or even the problems in the USA at that time, it still had quite a bit of truth to it. Intelligent people from other countries also believed in a system where workers were equals and massive wealth didn't just all go to a few people, and instead was more widely shared, with all work considered as honorable. There were many many factors that led to it all not succeeding of course, but I don't think it was childish. They didn't want to be dragged into the BS WWI either, which was another (of many) factors. I mean mentally teenagers. A human society can be made better (but different people have different ideas what that means and that's why we have democracy) but it can never ever become perfect (in the sense that all people's all needs are fulfilled and there is no antagonism). 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie September 15, 2019 Share September 15, 2019 7 hours ago, Roseanna said: Then Philip would have morality of just the same kind as his father: nothing matters than your own interests and it's OK to kill others for that. Only, Philip's poor father had much better reasons as his family suffered from hunger (although I doubt that guards's families had so bad irl) whereas Philip was really the lowest of human beings if his motives was electricity and running water. And Philip's pretty explicit about those not being his motives. That's why he can relate to Elizabeth. In S6 he reminds her that the two of them believed in something "so big" when they started out. He had come to see how that made them ripe for manipulation--never ending manipulation. Even at the end of the series his top priority isn't a cushy life, it's improvements for the world/USSR in general. His goals are far more realistic and less paranoid than whatever he started out with, but they're not fundamentally different. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina September 15, 2019 Share September 15, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Roseanna said: I mean mentally teenagers. A human society can be made better (but different people have different ideas what that means and that's why we have democracy) but it can never ever become perfect (in the sense that all people's all needs are fulfilled and there is no antagonism). I disagree with "mentally" teenagers as well. There were millions of supporters, inside and outside of Russia, they weren't ALL stupid. I hope you're wrong about that last part. You are almost definitely correct, but I still have some shreds of hope that human beings can eventually evolve to a more peaceful and equitable way of living. 4 hours ago, sistermagpie said: And Philip's pretty explicit about those not being his motives. That's why he can relate to Elizabeth. In S6 he reminds her that the two of them believed in something "so big" when they started out. He had come to see how that made them ripe for manipulation--never ending manipulation. Even at the end of the series his top priority isn't a cushy life, it's improvements for the world/USSR in general. His goals are far more realistic and less paranoid than whatever he started out with, but they're not fundamentally different. Well, those were Philip's words. Something like "What is so bad about having electricity that works and clean water all the time, and food to eat?" or words like that when he was talking to Elizabeth (possibly about defection or at least about the USA life they led.) There IS nothing wrong about wanting those things, for yourself or for your family. Which country was really providing for "the workers" in the best way? He was making a point, as am I. That point has nothing to do with selfishness or with making those material things the only thing that matters to someone. He was looking at both systems and asking a very real question there, for the average person which one was better, or more acceptable. He was looking at the whole picture, and the Soviet System at that point had many decades to improve the lives of the ordinary people, and massively failed, and it was getting even worse, not better. He saw the faults in the USA as well of course, but his eyes and ears were open, not shut, as fanatical and patriotic Elizabeth's were, and remained until the show ended. As we all know, shortly after that, the hopeless inept and corrupt soviet system did collapse, in the end, it was Philip who was correct, and Elizabeth who was wrong. Of course, the same thing as far as corruption at least, thing may happen in the USA at some point as well. Fanatics never see collapses coming. Edited September 15, 2019 by Umbelina Link to comment
sistermagpie September 16, 2019 Share September 16, 2019 2 hours ago, Umbelina said: Well, those were Philip's words. Something like "What is so bad about having electricity that works and clean water all the time, and food to eat?" or words like that when he was talking to Elizabeth (possibly about defection or at least about the USA life they led.) And to quote him further, "Yes, I liked it. So what?" He never denied liking the perks of the US, but that's not the country is fighting for. Oleg and Arkady seeking him out didn't make his access to reliable electricity more secure. That's the whole original misunderstanding that's cleared up with Elizabeth. He would want everybody to have access to those things, but his personal investment in improvement is in Russia. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina September 16, 2019 Share September 16, 2019 8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: And to quote him further, "Yes, I liked it. So what?" He never denied liking the perks of the US, but that's not the country is fighting for. Oleg and Arkady seeking him out didn't make his access to reliable electricity more secure. That's the whole original misunderstanding that's cleared up with Elizabeth. He would want everybody to have access to those things, but his personal investment in improvement is in Russia. What he is SUPPOSEDLY fighting for is the betterment of the entire world, and all it's people. You know, so that they could have basic things like reliable water and lights and decent homes, something HIS country did not provide. Aside from that, he wanted to defect. He didn't want to fight for the USSR anymore. He was coerced to stay in the fight (KGB) because of his obsession with Elizabeth. It was his only reason. The USA was a better option because the FBI did one thing really well, hide people. (Which the show ignored for that ridiculous storyline.) Had Sweden or some other country been able to hide them from the KGB, he would probably rather have been there. One thing he didn't want to do? Stay in the KGB, or go back to a country with no food, shared "housing" and all of the other problems and corruption and fear that was there. Link to comment
sistermagpie September 16, 2019 Share September 16, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, Umbelina said: What he is SUPPOSEDLY fighting for is the betterment of the entire world, and all it's people. Yes, he wants the betterment of the entire world but his own country's a priority. Over and over he's influenced by protecting his country. He's doing it for his country, he says he's always telling himself. He's very aware of times when he's protecting the USSR, period. That's not a problem for him. In S6 he's getting involved in and is interested in a power struggle there that doesn't matter to the American characters. 16 hours ago, Umbelina said: Aside from that, he wanted to defect. He didn't want to fight for the USSR anymore. He was coerced to stay in the fight (KGB) because of his obsession with Elizabeth. He wanted to defect in the pilot and then chose to kill Timoshev ahead. He wasn't coerced by anybody. Elizabeth told him to go ahead and do it. Throughout the rest of the series there's plenty of scenes where he's reluctant about something and then convinced by an argument (not always made by Elizabeth) about how it will help his country. In S6 there's two times that are more tied to Elizabeth. When she needs help during the Harvest op he thinks she might die and goes to help her--that he did for her to keep her alive and because he thought she needed him. Then there's the Kimmie op where she sleeps with him after a period of hostility and asks him to help her kidnap her. That he refuses to do even thought it makes Elizabeth more insulting and angry at him than she's ever been on the show. Then he's got a third job given to him by Arkady and Oleg, a job that Elizabeth not only doesn't know about but is potentially working against her and he does it. Because he's not obsessed with her. He loves her, but it's not his only motivation for everything he does, including at work. After they get together I think he shows far more willingness to leave her than vice versa. I think she's more worried about his opinion of her than vice versa too. They didn't write a deadly attraction story. Edited September 16, 2019 by sistermagpie 3 Link to comment
Umbelina September 16, 2019 Share September 16, 2019 53 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Yes, he wants the betterment of the entire world but his own country's a priority. Over and over he's influenced by protecting his country. He's doing it for his country, he says he's always telling himself. He's very aware of times when he's protecting the USSR, period. That's not a problem for him. In S6 he's getting involved in and is interested in a power struggle there that doesn't matter to the American characters. He wanted to defect in the pilot and then chose to kill Timoshev ahead. He wasn't coerced by anybody. Elizabeth told him to go ahead and do it. Throughout the rest of the series there's plenty of scenes where he's reluctant about something and then convinced by an argument (not always made by Elizabeth) about how it will help his country. In S6 there's two times that are more tied to Elizabeth. When she needs help during the Harvest op he thinks she might die and goes to help her--that he did for her to keep her alive and because he thought she needed him. Then there's the Kimmie op where she sleeps with him after a period of hostility and asks him to help her kidnap her. That he refuses to do even thought it makes Elizabeth more insulting and angry at him than she's ever been on the show. Then he's got a third job given to him by Arkady and Oleg, a job that Elizabeth not only doesn't know about but is potentially working against her and he does it. Because he's not obsessed with her. He loves her, but it's not his only motivation for everything he does, including at work. After they get together I think he shows far more willingness to leave her than vice versa. I think she's more worried about his opinion of her than vice versa too. They didn't write a deadly attraction story. I know what they were trying to write, and obviously it worked for a LOT of people. 😉 Indeed, it worked for most people! I am one of the odd-people out here. I get it. For me though, and we've been over this before, he didn't just want to defect in the first episode (we don't need to go 'round and 'round this point again) he wanted OUT. He only wanted out though, if his (you say LOVE, I say OBSESSION) Elizabeth would come with him. Honestly, in some ways we are both right. I accept that he loved her. I just think it was an unhealthy love, that veered into obsession because while it was great for Elizabeth? It was terrible for him, and even worse for his children. To me, love shouldn't be destructive to your own life, and once it is? Once you must live in a way that "makes you feel like shit all the time" in order to keep that "love" in your life? It's a sickness, it's unhealthy, which, by my definition, makes it something other than a real love. At one point Elizabeth did try to compromise a tiny bit, she "let him stop" as much as she could, but then, by the time the final season rolled around? She obviously RESENTED him, and what's more? Treated him like shit. She turned his daughter against him, at the very least allowed Paige to dislike, ignore, disrespect him, and worst? She encouraged that. The reality was that it was ALWAYS "her way or the highway." Philip was never really allowed to be "out." He had to maintain their cover. He was living with two spies for the KGB, worried endlessly for them, his wife and his daughter, people he loved, weren't out, so there was no way he could be "out" either. Elizabeth's mind was closed. She was very basic. KGB/USSR good, USA bad. She refused to allow any reality or truth to infringe on her closed mind. Philip, like a little whipped puppy, hung around for what? Crumbs? Hope that Elizabeth might finally see the truth staring her in the face from multiple sources (the Russian Couple, the African, William, etc.?) He stayed because of HER. He didn't want any part of it, except HER. He was willing to sacrifice his own self for HER. He was willing to sacrifice and risk his own children for HER. That's a sickness, not a healthy love. We will never agree, and that's OK. I see your points, I really do, I just don't agree. 😉 1 Link to comment
VCRTracking September 16, 2019 Share September 16, 2019 One of my favorite parts of the finale is when Phillip tells Stan "All these years MY life was the joke, not yours" and it cuts to Elizabeth. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie September 17, 2019 Share September 17, 2019 7 hours ago, Umbelina said: For me though, and we've been over this before, he didn't just want to defect in the first episode (we don't need to go 'round and 'round this point again) he wanted OUT. He only wanted out though, if his (you say LOVE, I say OBSESSION) Elizabeth would come with him. Honestly, in some ways we are both right. I accept that he loved her. I just think it was an unhealthy love, that veered into obsession because while it was great for Elizabeth? It was terrible for him, and even worse for his children. But obsession with Elizabeth means more than just not wanting to defect or go back to Russia without her. Lots of people stay in their present situation because they're partner doesn't want to leave. I mean, Philip has 3 opportunities to radically change his situation in some way *with Elizabeth's blessing.* First in the pilot Elizabeth tells him to go ahead and take Timoshev to the Americans as he wanted to do, but then Philip kills him instead. Then later Elizabeth suggests they both quit and go home and that's something Philip wants to do. But then he decides in isolation to not get rid of the Breeland tape. Then Elizabeth says he should just retire in the US and he does that. But then he starts spying again because Oleg and Arkady ant help protecting Gorbachev possibly against Elizabeth herself in secret. An obsessive love story guy might certainly kill Timoshev, but the second thing and especially the third thing requires loyalty to something else. The three things are perfectly consistent if Elizabeth's crazy commitment is part of what Philip loves about her like Philip's doubts and different desires for the kids are things she loves about him. Obsessive guy destroys the tape and gets Elizabeth, helps kidnap Kimmie and passes on Oleg's info to Elizabeth asap. He's not lecturing Elizabeth herself on putting the country first over her. It's true that the stuff Philip is bringing there is probably actually good for Elizabeth--she's falling apart without it in S6. But I think what he loves about her is also healthy once Philip separates it from blindly following the Centre's orders. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina September 17, 2019 Share September 17, 2019 I've addressed all of that so often @sistermagpie. We just disagree. Philip and his children could have had a great life, and Philip would have found someone else, even though he doesn't believe it, and thinks this is true love. What he needed was more than EST, he needed a therapist, which was impossible because he would have to divulge that he was KGB for it to be effective, which would put him and Liz in jail. EXCEPT, had he the strength to get away from toxic Elizabeth, saving both himself and his children by defecting? He COULD have had honest therapy via the FBI, who of course would already know he had been KGB. Instead he's about to be killed, and his children's lives are ruined, and if he's very lucky he won't be tortured before being killed. Ditto his "true love" Elizabeth. Woo. Great decisions there Philip. Link to comment
Roseanna September 17, 2019 Share September 17, 2019 On 9/16/2019 at 1:33 AM, Umbelina said: I disagree with "mentally" teenagers as well. There were millions of supporters, inside and outside of Russia, they weren't ALL stupid. Intelligence doesn't mean wisedom. A person can be intelligent but fail utterly in intimate relationships or be a political fool. A person may have great ideals and want to make a world a better place. After he joins the party, he is no more lonely nor has doubts: he gets a community and certainty. The the price is that he has to give up his individual opinions and believe that a party always knows the best. Link to comment
Roseanna September 17, 2019 Share September 17, 2019 11 hours ago, Umbelina said: Elizabeth's mind was closed. She was very basic. KGB/USSR good, USA bad. She refused to allow any reality or truth to infringe on her closed mind. It's true that Elizabeth never doubted her country nor Communism. But she sometimes acted against the orders, out of empathy or because she followed her own judgment - both denied her as a Communist. And that is what the show is ultimately about, IMO. Therefore, I understand Stan's decision. If he had acted as a cop should, he would be a worse human being than Oleg, Philip and even Elizabeth who followed their individual conscience. Link to comment
Umbelina September 17, 2019 Share September 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Roseanna said: It's true that Elizabeth never doubted her country nor Communism. But she sometimes acted against the orders, out of empathy or because she followed her own judgment - both denied her as a Communist. And that is what the show is ultimately about, IMO. Therefore, I understand Stan's decision. If he had acted as a cop should, he would be a worse human being than Oleg, Philip and even Elizabeth who followed their individual conscience. So you believe that Stan, a law enforcement officer, an FBI agent, the top of that heap, was justified in letting people who murdered dozens and dozens of people, many of them innocent bystanders, several our of military personal, fellow FBI agents, and others go? Wow. To hell with the families and friends of all of those people, Stan's FEELINGS were so much more important than his country, those families, his duty, the murdered people, or his oath. He did not need to let them go in order to warn Gorbachev, there was absolutely no reason Philip or Elizabeth had to go to the USSR for that to be accomplished. One call from the director to the White House and Gorbachev would have been informed. Reagan wanted those talks to proceed as much as Gorbachev did, and he certainly didn't want Gorbachev ousted to be replaced by hard liners. Reagan would have called him himself, and possibly put Elizabeth on the phone with him if necessary. Link to comment
Roseanna September 17, 2019 Share September 17, 2019 7 hours ago, Umbelina said: So you believe that Stan, a law enforcement officer, an FBI agent, the top of that heap, was justified in letting people who murdered dozens and dozens of people, many of them innocent bystanders, several our of military personal, fellow FBI agents, and others go? Wow. To hell with the families and friends of all of those people, Stan's FEELINGS were so much more important than his country, those families, his duty, the murdered people, or his oath. I believe that every person has a right to act according to her own conscience. Of course, she must accept the consequences of her actions. I have read many history books and novels and watched documentary films about Finns who spied for the enemy during the WW2. I have never felt any anger towards them because I understand that they acted as they saw right, just as the State Police did its job by trying to catch them. Therefore, dear @Unbelina, it's hard for me to understand your reaction to Stan as this show is fiction - these families and friends you speak of don't exist. And even if they did exist - well, I find very odd if the FBI would have made this affair public. Not only because the agency failed miserably but most of all, it would damage the US interests, i.e. Reagan's foreign policy towards Russia. It would have been very stupid indeed. Link to comment
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