sistermagpie November 28, 2022 Share November 28, 2022 23 hours ago, greekmom said: Americans is one of those shows that left so many unanswered questions... But that's what so great! A sequel might ruin it! 😬 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie November 28, 2022 Share November 28, 2022 5 minutes ago, Zella said: Yes this is something I really picked up on in my summer rewatch. I know I've seen people complain about him not being a particularly good actor--not so much here as other discussion sites--but I never had that impression of him at all. I found him quite believable as Henry and truthfully was always delighted when Henry popped up. He was very believable to me as a bright kid who wasn't quite a slacker but very much marched to the beat of his own quirky drum and mystified the rest of the family. I thought the scene in season 6 when he reveals to Stan that he has actually felt alienated from the family was quite poignant. I always thought that about him too. He doesn't have enough to do for me to know whether he's that great an actor in general or not, but he was often a breath of fresh air walking into a scene. I never had a problem believing him in a scene. I remember one scene this season that I really like his little moments in--I think it's where the math teacher calls, but I'll see when I get to it. Also, I honestly feel like sometimes while he didn't mistify the audience, they just didn't pay attention to him and kept replacing him with some cliche he never was. Sure we didn't see him as much as everyone else, but he wasn't just a blank slate to project onto. He had a clear personality that develops--especially with the way he interacts with Philip. (But then, some people always seemed determine to deny that relationship existed!) I got everything I needed from some of his little moments, like his "Oh" when Philip says he can't pay for school, or saying Elizabeth never talks to him. The revelations about his parents would have such different meanings for each one too, given their very different relationships at the end. 5 minutes ago, Zella said: I just never had that reaction to a Paige scene. I can better appreciate the writing for the character, but I don't think she had the acting chops to handle more subtle character work. Basically she moves her eyebrows and looks worried. She's not awful, but I think she was definitely outacted by pretty much the entire rest of the cast. Yes, it's not like she's the worst actor ever. But she's on a show where making that inner life and motivations clear is so important and it's just not there. That affects the show beyond just whether or not the one actor is "good" in a scene or not. 2 Link to comment
Andy73 November 30, 2022 Share November 30, 2022 (edited) Oops. They did it again Yesterday, from Italian press: Sweden, the network of Russian spies dismantled: the double existence, which lasted a decade, of Sergei and Elena It's true, in the end, they discovered them. But it's been a while since, in the late 1990s, they arrived in Sweden from Moscow like any couple. And, once they settled behind a screen of legality, they turned into ‘illegal’, spies on behalf of the Crane, the Russian military secret service. Sergei Skvortsov and his wife Elena Koulkova: a case reminiscent of the plot of the extraordinary TV series The Americans. Edited November 30, 2022 by Andy73 2 Link to comment
Andy73 December 16, 2022 Share December 16, 2022 On 11/28/2022 at 5:14 AM, sistermagpie said: Just watched Pests. Again: thank you for your post! As usual you give me other pow that I would never have had. I agree: the entire 5th season is a path forward the end. Some line are a little bit ridiculous (US want to starve the Russians), but this is a long marathon. Tuan: for me he a “pebble in the shoe” his behavior is no so clear for me: Why is he so radical in general, especially with Pasha and then we discover him fond of his adoptive family? What is his background? Elizabeth: she is She is split: she doesn't trust Page, she would like to protect her… otho she would want Page like her… Page: she still doesn't know who she wants to be. Hard not to understand her: who would be able to handle such a thing at his age? I know: you don’t like so much Holly’s performance. It’s seems flat… I agree… but… may be JJ wants her in this way to show us she confused… On 11/28/2022 at 5:22 AM, Zella said: I found him quite believable as Henry and truthfully was always delighted when Henry popped up. He was very believable to me as a bright kid who wasn't quite a slacker but very much marched to the beat of his own quirky drum and mystified the rest of the family I agree. In 6th season he was a breath of fresh air On 11/28/2022 at 5:23 AM, sistermagpie said: But that's what so great! A sequel might ruin it! 😬 Totally agree!!!! I miss them, but no… I don’t want a sequel… 2 Link to comment
Andy73 January 23, 2023 Share January 23, 2023 (edited) Just watched Cardinal 2x02 Well there is not much to say: thriller in this episode is really present: Elizabeth in every scene shows all her terror... a look at the window... her posture with which she scrutinizes the environment outside the front door... a drop of water falling from the tap... And then love: I had forgotten the relief on Elizabeth’s when Philip showed up at home unexpected. It was stunning! Elizabeth was openly happy that her husband chose her over the mission; that said everything about how much she’d come to need him at this point. That is why I love this show!!! In this ep. Elizabeth is very warried about kids… then we can see her u-turn: she is ready to involve Page in spies stuff when Mother Russia call! A connection whit START: here Philip answer to Elizabeth: we’ll get used to it. In START Elizabeth said the same. The ring closes. Spy stuff: FBI makes a good work with Dameran! Edited January 23, 2023 by Andy73 Added spy stuff. 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie January 24, 2023 Share January 24, 2023 7 hours ago, Andy73 said: And then love: I had forgotten the relief on Elizabeth’s when Philip showed up at home unexpected. It was stunning! Elizabeth was openly happy that her husband chose her over the mission; that said everything about how much she’d come to need him at this point. I love how it's like throughout the show Elizabeth is continually surprised when Philip has her back and how that feels for her. 3 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie January 27, 2023 Share January 27, 2023 (edited) Just watched The Midges! Lots of food—or lack of food, as in the sad grocery store where Poor Martha shops. First time round I saw S5 setting up S6 in practical ways—Elizabeth working alone, Philip partially retired, Paige working with Elizabeth. But now I’m seeing deeper character foundation, especially for P&E, who are never less root-able than they are ignorantly menacing this poor bug guy In his lab. OLEG Oleg meets with a grocery store manager to figure out this whole bribe system and gets offered tangerines. Food! He also gets hit with the tape Stan made of him, so he knows he might be in trouble. STAN People often criticized Stan and Adderholt for talking to Russians in the open, but, iirc, the show itself explains that they’re doing that on purpose. It puts the targets under suspicion and threat, which makes them more vulnerable. The FBI don’t have to do this stuff in secret. It’s their home turf! One guy they meet in a diner, making him leave without eating. Adderholt helps himself to his fries. Food! TUAN When Tuan hints about wanting a dog, and I remember how people seemed to expect P&E to treat this guy like their actual child even while Tuan himself is disgusted (or maybe just jealous) of Pasha’s mother coddling him. This, imo, is proof that P&E were never the bad parents people often claim they were, because if they were, they wouldn’t always be expected to parent everyone. (Stan isn’t.) Tuan’s amusingly insensitive, predicting the US will destroy the USSR with obvious satisfaction. Later he and Philip eat (food!) at the house and he talks about having to eat out of garbage cans (food again!). MISCHA Mischa makes it to Yugoslavia and has a lot of his money taken by a guy who’s maybe going to get him across the border. He’s probably never had that much money before so didn’t think to split it up and put it in different places. I can’t help but notice that Mischa has a nervous energy in this scene that’s entirely missing from any scene with Paige. ELIZABETH Elizabeth’s brown eyes are intense in this disguise! And how does she keep that wig on over the giant lump of hair without any of the pins and glue Clark used? She’s really attached to that long hair to keep it in this line of work. There are still people who believe Elizabeth is honey-trapping Philip because she playfully gets Philip to dance when he’s brooding over Soviet grain issues, but she’s not tricking him into loyalty, she just sees he’s gloomy and cheers him up. And he knows she’s doing that and appreciates it for what it is. On rewatch I saw a lot of little ways Elizabeth deals with things that will come to swallow her up in S6. Sometimes they’re contrasted with things Philip’s doing that equally foreshadow him in S6. For instance, when they’re telling Paige that they are undercover as a pilot and his stewardess wife, Elizabeth laughs, instinctively making it seem silly and even a little fun, inviting Paige to imagine Elizabeth as herself, but wearing a stewardess uniform, not someone manipulating another person in potentially cruel ways. Elizabeth has a certain tone she takes when encouraging Paige down the road she wants that’s really consistent—and a bit Pastor Tim-like. We all see Elizabeth brushing off difficult questions with easy answers or just avoiding them entirely. When Paige complains she’ll have to be fake with her boyfriends forever, Elizabeth claims it’s not being fake, that everyone holds something back, that relationships are complicated. Well, yeah, but that’s not really taking her question seriously. If it’s so easy to just “hold back” something why did Elizabeth want so badly to tell Paige who she was? Why does she find it so hard to relate to anybody outside their world? She also brushes off Philip’s question about why the USSR can’t grow its own wheat with another breezy “Everybody has problems.” She’s evasive when Philip wonders what they’d do if they had to run—would they tell the kids beforehand or, like Alexei, simply run and explain later? Elizabeth had earlier excoriated Alexei’s actions, saying “Who does something like that?” and “He just didn’t give a shit what his family thought.” But now, with Philip pointing out they might do the same thing, she just says it’s different because Alexei didn’t have to run from Russia. Except that’s irrelevant to the question. The kids would still experience things the same way Pasha did, and P&E didn’t have to be undercover. They chose it and dragged the kids along, just like Alexei. I’d always remembered it as Philip who tells the bug guy he “should have asked” what people were doing with those midges before he sent them off, but it’s Elizabeth, making the line even more hypocritical. Elizabeth not only never asks, she’s often proud of it. (I love that the guy at one point says, “Do you know anything about bugs?” Nope, but they'll still kill you.) The other thing is when they’re telling Paige about the wheat plot, Elizabeth focuses on how this is the type of thing the US does, that they go after the USSR any way they can. US aggression vs. USSR defense. Good guys (her) and bad guys (them). She’s drawing a line between US/USSR, offender/defender, aggressor/victim, and as long as Paige considers herself American, it’s implied, she’s supporting the former even if that's hard to hear. Watching all this now, I can’t help but think of how she’ll continue to soften her work to Paige and give simple, unhelpful answers. Her “not asking” about what she’s doing in the wider context will become an explicit theme and a point of vulnerability for her in S6. Elizabeth's ability to see only what she’s supposed to see is already distancing her from Russia as it exists in 1984 as opposed to 1942. She needs that straightforward conflict and an enemy attacking the country to focus on and doesn’t want to think about internal issues or the day-to-day struggles of ordinary people within the system. So it’s not that strange to think she’ll wind up semi-unwittingly trying to prolong the Cold War. She doesn’t want peace, she wants victory and if that victory is forever out of reach all the better, because the battle defines her life and justifies everything she’s doing. This thinking on her part often led some to consider her the stronger person/spy, but to me it always seemed like yes, it kept her far more resolute in the present, but totally unprepared for the future and more vulnerable to manipulation. PHILIP Philip looks so glum whenever he’s playing Brad, but I think it’s because he can’t smile with that moustache. The foundation’s also being laid for S6 Philip here, though, as ever, it’s not as clear compared to Elizabeth. The idea of Russians being starved is an emotional one for him—too emotional to logically question the details. But when he’s coldly agreeing with Tuan that Alexei deserves to be shot or threatening the bug guy, it still seems like he wants this wheat plot to be true more than he’s convinced it is. He needs to feel like the righteously angry good guy. His first flashback to childhood is a big contrast to Elizabeth’s childhood memories, which always include some clear exposition and usually a lesson in dialogue. With Philip, the stuff that’s most interesting to viewers is mostly in the background: That’s his home? That’s his brother?! As a viewer you can’t help but see this scene differently than the way Philip himself is meant to be seeing it. For instance, on first watch this flashback seemed to be about hunger, since his family is so poor and that’s the big theme. But in retrospect, it’s Alexei again. While bowling (and eating popcorn—food!) he tells his neighbors more details about his father being sent to a camp, talks about a guard there, says the prisoners were outside where everyone could see them. This, I now think, is why Philip is remembering his father bringing home a pair of pants. The fact that Alexei’s awakening these memories, imo, makes clear that Philip *did* know where his dad worked all along. He was just young enough to forget after his death. Speaking of his death, I always found it odd how Philip tells Tuan about going hungry before his dad died, (after the war). Because why would he make it sound like his father’s dying made food more plentiful when as a guard he would have at least had a salary and was bringing things home? Losing his father would make things worse, not better, especially right after. It seems like maybe Philip is replying to Tuan’s stories of hunger with his own, but winds up starting with his father because that’s where his mind keeps being drawn, back to his father and the prison he was well-aware of as a child. Open to other interpretations! I think he feels it when Tuan says Pasha’s always talking about “how much he hates his dad.” This season seems to be all about kids potentially hating a father or not knowing them for Philip. Alexei’s got to be one reason for him decisively leaving Henry behind. He’s been thinking about this for years by the time they leave. When Elizabeth is laughing about pretending to be a stewardess, Philip tells Paige that sometimes it’s really hard to pretend to be someone else. While Elizabeth talks about the wheat plot as the kind of monstrous thing the US does to the USSR, Philip frames it entirely about trying to keep innocent people from being hurt. He avoids making it about Paige’s country hurting his own, or war, and instead makes it about protecting ordinary people. So where Elizabeth tries to keep things separate—US vs. USSR, us vs them, who she really is vs. who she pretends to be—a policy that will eventually make her have to kid herself that Paige has become Russian and a spy and allow Henry to become this totally foreign Other, Philip—who’s basically in therapy via EST—is trying to integrate the world and his own self: the USSR and the US, Philip and Mischa, loving father and deadly spy. That’s reflected in S6 in his hope for better relations between the two countries, Pizza Huts in Moscow and the idea of serving Stan Russian food. This seems to somehow go along with Russian characters looking at internal problems in the USSR, like supply chain/corruption and the GULAG history. It’s the characters who can face the past and the present who seem better able to face the future. PAIGE Paige’s dilemma here is a serious one. Where her parents committed to a secret for their own reasons, Paige’s life revolves around a secret forced on her by someone else. She’s grown up feeling outside her parents’ bond and consequently associates love and intimacy with truth. So telling her she can’t ever talk about the biggest thing in her life isolates her and takes away the thing she wants most in the world. This season, I believe she’s supposed to be fighting to hold on to the person she is and wants to be without losing everything familiar and secure. As of this ep, this struggle is personified in Matthew Beeman, so it’s unfortunate that I just can’t root for Paige and Matthew as a couple at all. It’s not that I need them to be true love or think they're supposed to be. Matthew's important enough just representing the potential for Paige to have a relationship of her own. But they’re just so blah I can’t not want them to break up. Part of it is maybe what I said earlier, that their entire relationship is created out of Paige’s same problems. It’s outright funny when she tells Elizabeth how awful it was when Matthew asked about her and Philip and how things were at home (over pizza – food!) because the kid's been well-trained by now to know her only topics are her problems (which usually are about her parents) and problems Matthew has that reflect those problems. (Just made me remember Tuan saying if Pasha wanted to be cool he needed to stop talking about how much he hates his father.) So of course, Matthew’s telling her about his dad’s new girlfriend. He doesn’t feel like any kind of escape or refuge or hope even without her terrible secret. She’s just as glum and perplexed with him as with her parents. Oh, and as an aside, note that Paige, who’s determined to pass on info from Matthew that’s relevant to her parents, does *not* pass on Matthew’s news about Stan’s new girlfriend, because she doesn’t get that aspect. The other thing maybe, though, is that it continues to be hard to really get what Paige is supposed to be feeling even when we’re told what she was supposed to be feeling after the fact. She has her scene with Matthew, then reveals it felt gross to lie to him. Her parents tell her about the wheat plot (while clearing the table from an earlier dinner—food!), then report to Gabriel (over tea and pastries—food!) that it made her look at things differently, feel strongly about people being starved and be closer to her parents. Watching that Gabriel scene now, I still wonder if P&E aren’t supposed to be seeing what they want to see here because I saw them tell her about the wheat and didn’t get any of that? I see Paige doing “this is hard to deal with/understand” throughout the whole scene. Whether she’s asking questions in a childlike, direct way or an adolescent “everyone here is crazy except me” way, everything from her parents pretending to be other people to them getting information from sources gets the same “Wait…wait…what?” reaction. And even after we’ve been told this wheat plot is a game-changer for her, it still seems like she only asks about it out of politeness before getting to talk about her issues with Matthew. I felt briefly sorry for Matthew when I thought he maybe failed a test by telling Paige there was nothing they could do about the world being so messy, but then it didn’t really seem like he had. Earlier seasons established Paige as a big activist and presumably this is why Philip thinks hearing about the wheat plot will make Matthew seem unimportant to her. (Another time Philip solves an immediate problem by doing something that will be worse for him later.) But she really doesn’t seem that affected by the idea, even when saying, “So nuclear weapons aren’t bad enough?” It sometimes seems like you’re constantly watching her get hit with stuff she will have to process before you’ll get to see who she is, and then that never comes. I guess in general it seems like when I watch this battle that Paige is supposed to be fighting, it seems like she’s just already given up because everything’s the same. Perhaps she’s meant to have different things she feels strongly about: terrified about threats to her parents and therefore her, passionate about injustice and exhilaration with her boyfriend. But it already feels like the first two things are just more complicated burdens she doesn't want and her scenes with Matthew are so devoid of warmth, chemistry or comfort it’s hard to believe she wants to be there with him. Matthew has moments of believably looking like he wants this to work, but only in a generic way. When her parents gave her the “rub your fingers” trick they said it was about losing control because sex and romance was going to make her feel and say things with Matthew that she never had before. But when Matthew leans in and earnestly and says, “What is it? You can tell me,” it doesn’t seem like her rubbing her fingers has anything to do with Matthew at all—she just wants to tell somebody, just like with Pastor Tim, but with less personal connection. Which is understandable in itself, but doesn’t support the idea that this has anything to do with romance or desire. These two have known each other for years and have been going out for a while and it’s still impossible to believe they’ve had a private joke, had fun or even had a lively conversation together. Edited January 30, 2023 by sistermagpie 2 2 Link to comment
Andy73 February 26, 2023 Share February 26, 2023 (edited) Thank you for your post!!! On 1/27/2023 at 3:17 AM, sistermagpie said: ELIZABETH Elizabeth’s brown eyes are intense in this disguise! And how does she keep that wig on over the giant lump of hair without any of the pins and glue Clark used? This is the real mistery of the Americans!!! On 1/27/2023 at 3:17 AM, sistermagpie said: She’s really attached to that long hair to keep it in this line of work. She has such long hair today too, doesn't she? We know very well that Elizabeth also has her own fragilities, even if her dedication to the Cause has always been far firmer than that of Philip . “The Midges” does nothing but confirm this her position, first in the considerations about Alexei, then in the confrontation with Paige and finally with Philip. However, the picture that emerges from this is profoundly different from what we would have had if these same scenes had been in the first or second year: we know Elizabeth’s: we know how much her apparent coldness is in fact a constant work of rationalization of emergencies, of normalization of reality, of pragmatism above all. On 1/27/2023 at 3:17 AM, sistermagpie said: We all see Elizabeth brushing off difficult questions with easy answers or just avoiding them entirely. When Paige complains she’ll have to be fake with her boyfriends forever, Elizabeth claims it’s not being fake, that everyone holds something back, that relationships are complicated. Well, yeah, but that’s not really taking her question seriously. If it’s so easy to just “hold back” something why did Elizabeth want so badly to tell Paige who she was? Why does she find it so hard to relate to anybody outside their world? Elizabeth brings everything back on the most practical level (“it would not be right to give him such a weight”, where the weight would be equivalent to a death sentence) and above all normalizes an issue that is anything but normal, equating the inevitable and necessary “unspoken” in any relationship to lies of this magnitude. Elizabeth is not trying to manipulate Page with false rhetoric, but this is something she has convinced herself to believe, because perhaps it is the only way to live all this without definitively splitting, losing all her humanity. At least I agree with you! On 1/27/2023 at 3:17 AM, sistermagpie said: There are still people who believe Elizabeth is honey-trapping Philip because she playfully gets Philip to dance when he’s brooding over Soviet grain issues, I don’t agree with them. I found that scene a very romantic moment. I thought to honey-trap only once in the whole show: in S6 when she needs his help with Kimmy…. On 1/27/2023 at 3:17 AM, sistermagpie said: PHILIP Philip looks so glum whenever he’s playing Brad, but I think it’s because he can’t smile with that moustache. The foundation’s also being laid for S6 Philip here, though, as ever, it’s not as clear compared to Elizabeth. On 1/27/2023 at 3:17 AM, sistermagpie said: PHILIP …… The foundation’s also being laid for S6 Philip here, though, as ever, it’s not as clear compared to Elizabeth. Agree! Philip’s flashback. I think Tuan and Alexei work like a trigger for him and also I think all flashback are at first related to his father and then how his family was poor. However, I find his flashbacks quite cryptic…. Also I think Philip here is understanding It is legitimate to be faithful to one's cause, it is also legitimate to ask questions where necessary, to question, even if only to emphasize then with even more conviction one's ideas. he does that especially when he is willing to draw lessons from the condition of Alexei’s family, he see what happens when personal decisions are mixed with those of his kids – if there is one thing that Pasha’s affair clearly shows is that the blood linkage is not necessarily enough to save the family one. On 1/27/2023 at 3:17 AM, sistermagpie said: This season seems to be all about kids potentially hating a father or not knowing them for Philip. Alexei’s got to be one reason for him decisively leaving Henry behind. He’s been thinking about this for years by the time they leave. Oh, this is really true!!!! Edited February 26, 2023 by Andy73 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie February 28, 2023 Share February 28, 2023 On 2/26/2023 at 6:41 PM, Andy73 said: Elizabeth is not trying to manipulate Page with false rhetoric, but this is something she has convinced herself to believe, because perhaps it is the only way to live all this without definitively splitting, losing all her humanity. At least I agree with you! I think Elizabeth's mind is so well-trained now, too, to put things the way they're supposed to work in her mind, that she would never think of it as manipulation. She probably sees manipulation as lying to people like a man she sleeps with for information, where for Paige she's just going right to what's important and of course not getting to tangled up in thinking it through. Thinking it through is just confusing yourself, in her mind. On 2/26/2023 at 6:41 PM, Andy73 said: I don’t agree with them. I found that scene a very romantic moment. I thought to honey-trap only once in the whole show: in S6 when she needs his help with Kimmy…. Me too. In fact, I go back and forth with Kimmy. On one hand it seems like a honey trap since she sleeps with him and then asks her to do this for her. But otoh, it's possible she slept with him because she wanted to in that moment and then felt close enough to him that she risked asking him for help. She herself might not know for sure! But whichever way, I don't think she did it in a completely cold, calculating way. If it was completely about the job, I think he would have been angrier about it. 4 Link to comment
Andy73 March 5, 2023 Share March 5, 2023 On 2/28/2023 at 2:04 AM, sistermagpie said: Me too. In fact, I go back and forth with Kimmy. On one hand it seems like a honey trap since she sleeps with him and then asks her to do this for her. But otoh, it's possible she slept with him because she wanted to in that moment and then felt close enough to him that she risked asking him for help. She herself might not know for sure! But whichever way, I don't think she did it in a completely cold, calculating way. If it was completely about the job, I think he would have been angrier about it. May be you are right…. I’m not so sure it was a honey-trap! Do you remember if it was before Chiacago’s or later? Link to comment
Andy73 March 5, 2023 Share March 5, 2023 (edited) Just watched “The walk in” 2X03 People disapproved Elizabeth for burning the letter pointing out her u-turn. But honestly, what else could she have done? Here comes the flood…. I saw a tear on Liz's face... I had it too I still surprised, like first watch, how how anxious Elizabeth is: she is really afraid. Edited March 5, 2023 by Andy73 Link to comment
sistermagpie March 7, 2023 Share March 7, 2023 (edited) On 3/5/2023 at 12:33 PM, Andy73 said: May be you are right…. I’m not so sure it was a honey-trap! Do you remember if it was before Chiacago’s or later? Definitely before. She got him to sleep with Kimmy, then he backed out when he realized it was stupid to just take Elizabeth's word that Kimmy wouldn't be hurt if he got her kidnapped behind the iron curtain. Elizabeth was still angry with him when she left for Chicago (telling him to shove his Forum bullshit up his ass, iirc!) but he called her and asked if she needed him. On 3/5/2023 at 12:44 PM, Andy73 said: People disapproved Elizabeth for burning the letter pointing out her u-turn. But honestly, what else could she have done? I thought it was a great U-turn! Even thought it, ironically, turned out to be the wrong move since Jared already knew about his parents. But in the moment she realized she didn't want to up-end the kid's life just so his parents (with whom she identified) could be known the way they wanted to be known. She put the child before the parents. I wonder if she would have done the same if she hadn't become a mother herself by then... Edited March 7, 2023 by sistermagpie 2 1 Link to comment
Andy73 March 7, 2023 Share March 7, 2023 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Definitely before You are right, thank you! The doubt is still alive .... But that's the good! 4 hours ago, sistermagpie said: She put the child before the parents. I wonder if she would have done the same if she hadn't become a mother herself by then... May be yes! Definitely she did for the child, but for business too. It’s dangerous have an upset child, who knows real ID his parents, walks in DC. 1 Link to comment
Andy73 March 11, 2023 Share March 11, 2023 (edited) Rewatched 2×04 A Little Night of Music The Americans are staging the world of human relationships! The series, we have said many times, is a very powerful magnifying glass aimed at the Family, explored in such a meticulous game of masks and lies. ‘The world of physics encompasses the microscopic, the submicroscopic, the very distant, the world of unseen things,’ says Anton Baklanov at the beginning of the episode, in a sort of manifesto of the series itself, which, in this episode, focuses on what is deepest and most invisible in the world: consciousness. I agree Claudia: Elizabeth hasn't recovered yet! I liked the scene of the first their meeting: Claudia whispers sitting behind Liz, who often reacts only with her eyes, as if talking to her was actually something much more inner. Claudia looks like her Talking Cricket... The truth, for characters forced to live in a world of lies and secrets, can only emerge in the form of pseudo-confessions, that is disguised (also) as a lie. Stan admits to having an affair, but lies about the “who”; Phillip argues with Martha without it being possible to tell how much is fake and how much real there is in his outburst. Elizabeth in disguise tells the story of the rape: I have the impression that she wasn't just acting with that boy... Page prays at the table... I loved Philip and Elizabeth in that scene... as well as their dialogue in the car. Yes guys, Page is telling lies... you are losing control over her!!! The final scene is amazing: Elizabeth is a fury (why???) Philip is as shocked like me... and the girl goes away with Anton.... Marriage is hard. Great Philip…. Edited March 11, 2023 by Andy73 3 Link to comment
aghst April 4, 2023 Share April 4, 2023 Quote Greece believes Campos Wittich was a Russian illegal with the surname Shmyrev, said the official, while his wife, “Maria Tsalla”, was born Irina Romanova. She married him in Russia before their missions began and took his surname, the Greeks claim. She left Athens in a hurry in early January, just after Campos Wittich left Brazil. Neither have returned. Illegals often work in pairs as married couples, but the case of Campos Wittich and Tsalla is the first alleged example of two halves of an illegal couple working in separate countries with separate lives. “We have very little doubt that they were married,” said the Greek official, adding that it was an unusual case. He claimed that the pair had engineered meetings in Greece, Cyprus and France in recent times, possibly romantic encounters mixed with espionage catch-ups. Interviews in Greece and Brazil suggest both halves of the couple left emotional devastation in the wake of their hurried departures. Both had long-term romantic partners in their cover identities, who had no suspicion they were involved with Russian spies. Real life and current story about illegals who had married before leaving Russia but lived as individuals, both having long term relationships with individuals who suspected nothing. https://apple.news/AFsjY8KJ3SV-VDh-wZjSTMg The husband was about to finalize purchase of a property which was 50 meters from a US consulate in Brazil. Speculation is that arrests of illegals may have compromised their covers so they both fled back to Russia. 1 Link to comment
aghst April 4, 2023 Share April 4, 2023 An even more recent story, an illegal also from Brazil gained admission to a top Graduate program in Washington for diplomats and intelligence officials. This spy supposedly may have sent back intelligence about US response to Russian buildup before they invaded Ukraine and may have lined up internship at the International Criminal Court, which was about to investigate and rule on Russian war crimes in Ukraine. Quote “Today we made the future — we managed to get in one of the top schools in the world,” he wrote in an email to those who had helped him gain entry to the elite master’s program in international relations. “This is the victory that belongs to all of us man — to the entire team. Today we f---ing drink!!!” The achievement was even sweeter for Ferreira because he was not the striving student from Brazil he had portrayed on his Johns Hopkins application, but a Russian intelligence operative originally from Kaliningrad, according to a series of international investigations as well as an indictment the Justice Department filed in federal court Friday. His real name is Sergey Cherkasov and he had spent nearly a decade building the fictitious Ferreira persona, according to officials and court records. His “team” was a tight circle of Russian handlers suddenly poised to have a deep-cover spy in the U.S. capital, positioned to forge connections in every corner of the American security establishment, from the State Department to the CIA. Using the access he gained during his two years in Washington, Cherkasov filed reports to his bosses in Russia’s military intelligence service, the GRU, on how senior officials in the Biden administration were responding to the Russian military buildup before the war in Ukraine, according to an FBI affidavit. After he graduated, he came close to achieving a more consequential penetration when he was offered a position at the International Criminal Court in The Hague. He was due to start a six-month internship there last year — just as the court began investigating Russian war crimes in Ukraine — only to be turned away by Dutch authorities acting on information relayed by the FBI, according to Western security officials. Officials in the Netherlands put him on a plane back to Brazil, where he was arrested upon landing and is now serving a 15-year prison sentence for document fraud related to his fake identity. https://apple.news/AaCDarrzAQJCWMbM2yOPHoA 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie April 28, 2023 Share April 28, 2023 Just watched What’s the Matter with Kansas? My biggest surprise on rewatch is that my favorite storyline now is Mischa’s. Maybe knowing he’s going to get turned right around once he gets to the end of his journey lets me just appreciate everything he’s going through to get there instead of worrying what they’re planning to do with him when he gets there. OLEG and STAN Oleg and Stan have both become sensitive about hurting people. Stan’s threatens the CIA if they go after Oleg; Oleg’s objecting to using kids in Afghanistan to go after grocers who have to make special deals to get by. Poor Oleg’s mom just melts into tears when she learns he might be in trouble, but then encourages him to do what he must to survive—a contrast to his father’s usual advice about doing what’s right. It's an especially interesting contrast with Adderholt, who isn’t cruel or cold, but still practical, not letting his emotions interfere with his work. Russians eating their own is slowly emerging as a theme with Oleg’s mother revealing that she was sent to a camp to punish her husband. RENEE Stan’s gleeful about his relationship with Renee, who’s just as odd as she was the first time round, though now we know we’ll get no particular explanation as to why. She’s like a slot machine spitting out personal details nobody asked for. Either she’s a spy or written to sound suspicious. Unfortunately, we don’t know enough Renee to give us a third, potentially interesting, reason for her behavior. Also unfortunately, it seems like the show never leans into the part that seems more important and interesting to me, which is why Stan would want to be married to her. There’s plenty in the show that gives us an idea for it, but with no pay off to the Renee thing, it doesn’t get a satisfying ending imo. HENRY Henry’s teacher seems to be doing everything he can to make his parents think Henry’s in trouble before revealing he’s a good student now. Again, for all the accusations that P&E ignore Henry, they’re quite interested in who he’s talking to on the phone and if he’s got a girlfriend and unlike the audience who sometimes seemed to see Henry as forever an 8-year-old Dickensian orphan, they’ve got years of having to lean on him to do his homework and study. I love Henry in the kitchen scene, throwing away the toast Elizabeth gave him when she assumes he’s done something wrong when he hasn’t. Though at the same time, he takes no responsibility for why his parents assume he’s slacking off. As if he hasn’t been an indifferent student whose studies they had to supervise. I feel for him feeling hurt over their assumptions and thinking that if he changed, that’s who he is now, while also understanding where his parents are coming from. Most of all I love when Paige walks in and scolds him about throwing the toast away when she could have eaten it and Henry tells her that she can take it out of the trash. It just cracks me up because her character is treated so seriously and preciously by everyone, even in the moments when her parents get angry at her, and it’s hilarious to see a regular kid respond to her like a prissy annoyance when he totally would. Especially since Paige has been scolding him since the pilot. Henry’s gone from objecting to ignoring and now, finally, rudely dismissing. I just feel like if I were Henry, Paige’s relentless attempts to correct or take credit for influencing me would drive me up a wall. Henry’s story made me think about the teens in general on the show, though, because I remember someone once saying we didn’t know enough about Henry to understand or care about him, and that surprised me because to me he’s always seemed very real and understandable. We don’t get the in-depth focus on the primal wounds he has from his parents the way we do with Paige and Matthew, but in some ways even those seem more real to me in him. It made me think about how as teens they live in their two worlds—the inside and outside one, iow, the home world and the teen world. For Paige and Matthew, the home world is defined by how they relate to their parents, and that stuff is thought through. Paige never really feels religious to me, but that’s fine because her church life is ultimately about her parents, especially Elizabeth, and her real interest is in social justice. When Paige makes a fashion choice that’s a little off for the 80s (her super long hair) it’s easily explained by her copying Elizabeth. (Like Sally Draper, Paige grew up with an exceptionally beautiful mother whose influence goes deeper than current trends.) But where Henry’s teen world seems believable, Paige and Matthew’s often feel fake to me. Henry, besides looking exactly like a kid his age from his background in the mid-80s, has a series of interests that are varied (some nerd-adjacent, like computers, Eddie Murphy impressions, space and magic, some mainstream like sports and prep school ambitions), but believably exist in this one individual kid. When Henry’s interested in something it feels like the writer understands the appeal of it and so can communicate it to the actor and it informs his character. But when Paige needs to gesture towards having a life outside home, it often feels like somebody just looked at a list of names (for friends) or teen interests that could exist in the 80s. Like there’s one scene in S2 where for one episode Paige “loves volleyball” and quit the team as a sign of her growing interest in the church. There’s nothing about Paige that says she couldn’t play volleyball, but that love clearly doesn’t exist outside these isolated references in one episode that are really about the church. Likewise, where her hair makes sense because of Elizabeth, there’s a line in s1 about Paige having too many legwarmers (already unlikely for her in 1981), despite us never once seeing her wear any. This problem seems even more glaring with Matthew, since he’s got less screentime. Matthew is at his most regular teen self in S1 when living at home, and during that time he’s given two specific activities: going to Rocky Horror and having a band. And again, it feels like both these things were chosen for character interactions they provided without informing the character of Matthew beyond that. He goes to Rocky Horror so that Stan can be bemused by Matthew wearing makeup. He has a band because it’s an easy way to get Paige in a room with him and other teenagers who make her feel young and awkward. Both those things are referenced later on more than once, but in the same capacity. Stan fastens onto Rocky Horror as something Matthew likes just as Paige references his band. But neither of them really fit Matthew as presented. Like, I don’t want to listen to him drone on about music, but a kid who cares enough about it to own and play an electric guitar and once try to put together a band would probably have Strong Opinions and favorite bands, and it’s really strange that I couldn’t even hazard a guess what music he’d be into just by looking at him, much less spending time with him. If a kid’s into music, that music will often be very tied to his identity. Which leads us back to fashion. Music and fashion are always linked, and maybe they were in the 80s even more than some other decades thanks to MTV. At 16 Matthew is a kid who not only goes to Rocky Horror but goes in some level of drag (even if it’s just makeup), but in real life he looks…well, why does he look like that? Who is he even finding to give him that haircut in 1984? The same person who cut it in 1976? It’s not like this hair is explainable like Paige’s is—nor is Paige’s apparently thinking it’s attractive. Somehow, by spending more time establishing Henry as a kid with friends and interests the show makes me get his feelings about his home life, yet the time spent focusing on Paige and Matthew’s more specific, individual issues with their parents makes anything beyond that feel fake. Btw, that goes for Paige’s music too. She’s obviously not really into music, which is fine, but the one time they have her express enthusiasm for an album they accidentally choose one that was barely known in the US at the time and have her talk about it as if it’s generic mainstream popular so again, there’s no choice there that’s meant to define her character. It’s just using pop music as a thing teenagers like. PAIGE On first watch, I remember feeling like Paige’s scenes slowed the show to a crawl and watching them now, knowing where they’re leading…they still do. LOL. There’s a scene in the kitchen where she and Elizabeth talk about the work Elizabeth’s doing and Paige reading Pastor Tim’s diary with Paige as usual playing “but this is weird” on every question without giving any real hint to anything else. That’s rough since the audience already knows everything she’s being told, and some lines, delivered that straight, risk making her look dumb. Like when after having established that Elizabeth is meeting with someone without letting him know who she really is, and pretending to be a saleswoman, Paige asks if she uses her real name. There’s an important evolution going on with her this season and so far, not seeing it. Trying to figure out exactly what Paige thinks about her parents’ work now that we know she won’t understand it even when she’s working in S6. Earlier she mentioned Alexei thinking Philip and Elizabeth were his “friends,” so is she imagining what Elizabeth is doing here, just without sex? But she also worried someone might turn them in, so does she think this scientist knows Elizabeth is there to talk to him about wheat and so kind of knows she’s a spy only thinks that in her cover life she’s Brenda the fashion saleswoman instead of Elizabeth the travel agent? She knows they’re flying to meet with people, so does she think the guy’s onboard with passing info? The scene does also, though, foreshadow a pattern from S6. Elizabeth praises Paige’s bravery and intelligence in reading Tim’s diary, but warns that he might notice a change in her demeanor depending on what she read. This isn’t a unfair on Elizabeth’s fault, since several people have noticed when Paige seems to have some secret that’s worrying her. (It’s similar to her justified assumptions about Henry’s teacher calling.) Paige’s response is to simply say that she’s sorry, but she was there and Elizabeth wasn’t so, iow, she thinks she’s fine and will do whatever she wants to do. Philip asks later if she “gets it,” a concept that will also keep coming up with S6. Though by then it’s Paige insisting she “gets it” when she very clearly does not. It hadn’t never occurred to me before, but is this the reason P&E decide to send Pastor Tim away? That the risk becomes greater having him around if Paige is going on the offensive? PASTOR TIM It was surprising that it was Tim who gave Paige the works of Marx, but given how I’ve come to understand Tim this time around, it makes sense. Before giving her the book, he tells her Elizabeth is “really trying,” and I don’t think that’s just him naively believing Elizabeth’s attempts to appear vulnerable to him, especially since he rebuffed them all. Tim has drawn a line between his family and theirs. Gently pushing Paige towards Marxism and a mother who’s “really trying” is pushing her towards her parents, giving her their Bible and encouraging her to understand them. He’s no longer competing with them for influence—they can have her. (Though that book with his own notes in it might interest the FBI when they search the house post-S6.) PHILIP The Jennings meet their new honeypots in this ep, and both are uninteresting with nothing at stake. Even Philip himself warns he might die of boredom with his. He also goes to a bar with Alexei. Perhaps we’re meant to see some similarities between Philip and Renee in this scene, but to me they seem more like stark contrasts. Alexei asks Brad/Philip how he became a pilot, and of course he has a story ready. One which also leads to a question about the adoption of Tuan. But Brad’s story sounds natural, and Alexei asked for it. If this were Renee, well, Alexei probably would have already heard the story of How He Became a Pilot with more personal details and sidetracks about her favorite plane and how they moved to the house near the airfield when her dad got a new job and how she liked going to his office. ELIZABETH As worried as Elizabeth is about Paige blowing things with the Tims, she can’t help but be thrilled at Paige wanting to snoop and greedy about getting into that diary. Her black and white thinking is showing here. She doesn’t like Tim, so imagines him potentially getting up to something shady with a parishioner that he’s written about. In reality, Pastor Tim’s big dark secret that could get him in trouble is…her. Elizabeth’s new target is Ben Stobert, a guy Philip has noticed she likes. (I remember talking to a guy on first run who thought the show was moving towards divorce because Elizabeth was going to leave Philip for…this guy.) At the suggestion she likes him, Elizabeth immediately reframes Ben as a monster whose pleasant personality just makes his evil deeds worse. Her friendship with Young Hee still stings and she’s not going to let that happen again. If she doesn’t hate Ben enough when she’s with him, she’ll stoke up her righteous anger when she gets home. There is something interesting about how these two sources have some superficial qualities of their real partner (Deidre is emotionally closed-off and work-focused; Ben is open-minded and sensitive) but lacking the thing in the other person they fell in love with. But it still feels like it works better on paper than onscreen since unless you’re that random guy who thought Brenda/Ben were endgame, it’s obvious these people are never going to be very interesting. 4 1 Link to comment
txhorns79 May 9, 2023 Share May 9, 2023 I have been rewatching. I just watched "Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep?" and I just have to say how great Lois Smith's performance is. You can see that Elizabeth is devastated over what must be done with her, and how Smith just destroys Elizabeth with one of her last lines about how Elizabeth's justification for killing her is something that evil people tell themselves. And kudos to Alison Wright, in an earlier episode, when they find the bugged pen that Martha has planted and Martha looks legit like she just took a dump in her pants and is going to panic and die right in that moment. I always feel so bad for Martha. She made some terrible choices, but she seems so tragic. 1 2 Link to comment
Zella May 9, 2023 Share May 9, 2023 36 minutes ago, txhorns79 said: And kudos to Alison Wright, in an earlier episode, when they find the bugged pen that Martha has planted and Martha looks legit like she just took a dump in her pants and is going to panic and die right in that moment. I always feel so bad for Martha. She made some terrible choices, but she seems so tragic. I love everything about them finding the pen. The looks on the faces of Stan, Gaad, and Dennis are also superb. 2 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie May 10, 2023 Share May 10, 2023 23 hours ago, txhorns79 said: And kudos to Alison Wright, in an earlier episode, when they find the bugged pen that Martha has planted and Martha looks legit like she just took a dump in her pants and is going to panic and die right in that moment. I always feel so bad for Martha. She made some terrible choices, but she seems so tragic. 23 hours ago, Zella said: I love everything about them finding the pen. The looks on the faces of Stan, Gaad, and Dennis are also superb. I'm so impressed every time I think of that story, the way it comes out of nowhere. You've gotten used to the pen just being there and then it's just a dumb coincidence when they find it, and it's both funny and terrifying for Martha--agreed on her performance. Plus it sets the ball rolling on so many revelations to come! 3 2 Link to comment
Zella May 10, 2023 Share May 10, 2023 1 minute ago, sistermagpie said: I'm so impressed every time I think of that story, the way it comes out of nowhere. Yes it's also in the middle of an episode in the middle of the season! Nothing about that episode seems like it's going to drop a bomb on the narrative. Until it does. 1 2 Link to comment
Andy73 May 16, 2023 Share May 16, 2023 On 5/9/2023 at 4:09 AM, txhorns79 said: is. You can see that Elizabeth is devastated over what must be done with her, and how Smith just destroys Elizabeth with one of her last lines about how Elizabeth's justification for killing her is something that evil people tell themselves. I remember so well this ep. It got me a tear for both Smith and Elizabeth! This is a great example of how the show connects us with its characters, showing us their feelings. And it lays us questions: is Elizabeth an evil people as Smith said? Or not? If yes, why? Again, if no, why? 1 Link to comment
txhorns79 May 16, 2023 Share May 16, 2023 3 hours ago, Andy73 said: This is a great example of how the show connects us with its characters, showing us their feelings. And it lays us questions: is Elizabeth an evil people as Smith said? Or not? If yes, why? Again, if no, why? It's a great question. It comes up again when Elizabeth finds herself really liking Young-Hee. They develop as real a friendship as Elizabeth can allow for in her life (i.e. built on lies and deception but with real feelings on Elizabeth's side). Elizabeth tries to avoid having to continue the operation knowing it will end her friendship and destroy Young-Hee's life, then mourns the relationship when it has to end. Again, is Elizabeth evil for manipulating and wrecking this innocent family to get what she wants? 4 Link to comment
Andy73 May 16, 2023 Share May 16, 2023 1 hour ago, txhorns79 said: It's a great question. It comes up again when Elizabeth finds herself really liking Young-Hee. They develop as real a friendship as Elizabeth can allow for in her life (i.e. built on lies and deception but with real feelings on Elizabeth's side). Elizabeth tries to avoid having to continue the operation knowing it will end her friendship and destroy Young-Hee's life, then mourns the relationship when it has to end. Again, is Elizabeth evil for manipulating and wrecking this innocent family to get what she wants? Oh yes! That is other example. Liz was in a very bad place that time!! is Elizabeth evil? I see her, and Philip too, as soldier!!! Very well trained soldier. They were fighting a war. Ok for us for wrong side but… i don’t remember them unjustified murder in a military pow… like those committed by arkan’s tiger or the nazi massacre in Europe… I don't know if I explained myself. Apologie if I offended someone!!! Link to comment
aghst May 16, 2023 Share May 16, 2023 After seeing the atrocities committed in Ukraine, by drafted Russian soldiers, it's hard to see Philip and Elizabeth as just carrying out orders, still decent people caught in circumstances where they have to do bad things. No, they may just have been people victimized by their govt. and they in turn victimized others, probably with little or no regret or real moral doubts. One of the ways countries get their soldiers to kill enemies is to dehumanize them. They may have learned English well enough to explain to their kids that the USSR has their own perspectives on justice, duty, freedom and other lofty concepts but likely they internalized the Soviet propaganda and probably were scared to defy their superiors or run away. They chose not to defect, to go into hiding. Instead they were willing to deceive and kill until almost the end. They knew a lot of the propaganda was false, they witnessed how different things were in America compared to what they've been told and what they knew their fellow Russians were still being told. They hand-waved the prosperity and the better standard of living. Toward the end of the show, they showed the empty shelves at Moscow supermarkets and how they reserved some stores for the elites when food was scarce. Yet to the end they were loyal to mother Russia, which they had to have known was corrupt and lacking in any of the moral authority it claimed. That's why I was somewhat disappointed that the show didn't go all the way to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Would Philip and Elizabeth still be loyal to the end or were they going to go through cognitive dissonance? 1 Link to comment
Andy73 May 16, 2023 Share May 16, 2023 4 hours ago, aghst said: Would Philip and Elizabeth still be loyal to the end or were they going to go through cognitive dissonance? Good question… War…. It does not exist in nature. It is a human invention. I war there are no saints! No living being can be as atrocious with members of the same species like man can be! Yet war is part of our being. Yesterday…. Today…. In a future! Link to comment
sistermagpie May 17, 2023 Share May 17, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, aghst said: After seeing the atrocities committed in Ukraine, by drafted Russian soldiers, it's hard to see Philip and Elizabeth as just carrying out orders, still decent people caught in circumstances where they have to do bad things. I think both countries are very different now than they were then. The USSR doesn't even exist. Philip and Elizabeth were moving towards a very specific goal that was supposed to improve the lives of everyone and make it more equal. Their missions all had a point they understood that was allegedly necessarily to prevent more harm without going in for unnecessary cruelty. But even so, as the show went on that's exactly what Philip, especially, started to question, that what they believed in was "so big" it could just justify doing stuff forever. I mean, at the end the whole central point is that you can't just be following orders, because what it's *you* doing it. Their victims become more humanized rather than less. 10 hours ago, aghst said: They knew a lot of the propaganda was false, they witnessed how different things were in America compared to what they've been told and what they knew their fellow Russians were still being told. They hand-waved the prosperity and the better standard of living. Toward the end of the show, they showed the empty shelves at Moscow supermarkets and how they reserved some stores for the elites when food was scarce. Yet to the end they were loyal to mother Russia, which they had to have known was corrupt and lacking in any of the moral authority it claimed. That's why I was somewhat disappointed that the show didn't go all the way to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Would Philip and Elizabeth still be loyal to the end or were they going to go through cognitive dissonance? But this seems to suggest that the solution should have involved them switching sides when there's plenty of things Americans handwave away--including CIA/NSA agents. In the last season of the show Elizabeth and Claudia were still in WWII mode, wanting to blame everything on an external enemy, but many characters were prefering to focus on the country's internal problems and wanting to make them better. I think their cognitive dissonence would come more from "home" not feeling like home more than the system. Philip's already started to question their system and Elizabeth, unfortunately, has probably trained herself to justify everything to herself. I assume their reaction to the fall of the USSR will be complex and happen over too much time to deal with on the show (and would be a totally different story). They won't be alone with dealing all of that, of course. They might find something to do that suited what they really wanted to do. But ultimately, it might make them more skeptical about propaganda in the future. Even Elizabeth might not ever be able to feel about the Russian Federation as she did about the USSR. I was talking to somebody once about whether Elizabeth would support Putin and my feeling was she would instinctively want to for the stability and familiarity of it, but that it seemed like at some point Philip wouldn't and she'd respect his compass on that. Edited May 17, 2023 by sistermagpie 2 2 Link to comment
SunnyBeBe May 17, 2023 Share May 17, 2023 Can someone remind me where the characters ended up? I know Philip and Liz in Russia, but what about Claudia? My favorite episodes included when Philip realizes he’s been made, there’s a trap in the park and he takes off running! Omg, he ran so fast! And, the call home saying, Everything at work got topsy turvy. And, Elizabeth grabs the get the hell out of dodge go bag. It was as if you thought about things going down that way, but never thought it would really happen, because they’d be dead or arrested and never get the chance to try to escape, with a bag of supplies, nonetheless. Link to comment
sistermagpie May 17, 2023 Share May 17, 2023 49 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said: Can someone remind me where the characters ended up? I know Philip and Liz in Russia, but what about Claudia? Elizabeth confronted her about lying to her to trick her into being part of the anti-Gorbachev plot. There was some suggestion that Claudia might be punished for her involvement given that the plot was being uncovered. Claudia said she was going to go back to the USSR and work for her country any way she could, I believe. After she finished her soup. 😉 49 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said: My favorite episodes included when Philip realizes he’s been made, there’s a trap in the park and he takes off running! Omg, he ran so fast! And, the call home saying, Everything at work got topsy turvy. And, Elizabeth grabs the get the hell out of dodge go bag. It was as if you thought about things going down that way, but never thought it would really happen, because they’d be dead or arrested and never get the chance to try to escape, with a bag of supplies, nonetheless. That scene was so awesome! 2 1 Link to comment
txhorns79 May 24, 2023 Share May 24, 2023 On 5/16/2023 at 11:42 PM, sistermagpie said: That scene was so awesome! They really did have a plan for everything. The finale really makes me feel for Stan. Philip was a monster to him. He even poisons Stan's relationship with Renee as Stan lets them escape. (At least in my view, she wasn't a spy. Stan mostly left counter-intelligence by the time the last season starts and I can't believe anyone would risk her applying for a job at the FBI if there was even a scintilla of a chance it would blow her cover. That was part of the reason the Center wanted Paige, because she would clear background checks.) Link to comment
Kel Varnsen May 24, 2023 Share May 24, 2023 On 5/16/2023 at 10:50 PM, SunnyBeBe said: My favorite episodes included when Philip realizes he’s been made, there’s a trap in the park and he takes off running! That is a great scene. My favourite part is when he is running he does stuff like (I think) take off his jacket and put on a hat. Things that would seem so obvious to do when cops are looking for someone with a certain description, but you never see on any other show. 3 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie May 24, 2023 Share May 24, 2023 19 minutes ago, txhorns79 said: They really did have a plan for everything. The finale really makes me feel for Stan. Philip was a monster to him. He even poisons Stan's relationship with Renee as Stan lets them escape. I think he was the exact opposite to a monster to him there. He told him his suspicions because he didn't want him to be another Martha even if he was blowing some longterm Centre operation with Renee. Stan can check if she's an Illegal or not. It wouldn't be better if he kept quiet and eventually he found out she was a spy and he just assumed Philip was in on it. Stan's been undercover himself. He's been that monster. (Even if his character as written doesn't really support it.) The Renee story drives me crazy, though, because she always presents onscreen as completely artificial that you're supposed to wonder if she is or she isn't where with a real person there's be more options. But if Philip still has doubts after 3 years she must not have proved herself too thoroughly. In fact, it just occurred to me thinking about Stan's relationships that people who genuinely want what's best for him are usually the ones casting doubt on his most perfect girlfriends. 4 Link to comment
SunnyBeBe May 24, 2023 Share May 24, 2023 (edited) I had a bad feeling about Renee. I think my suspicion grew when there was a scene of her car in a preview that never aired. At least, I don’t think it was ever explained. The vehicle was parked outside an empty building and a police or FBI car pulls in front of it with lights on. It appears to be Renee’s car. I’d have to hunt for it. Someone may recall what I’m describing. ……..Found it. It’s about midway through. It’s very quick. Just a second. Does anyone recall what was happening and if that’s her car? Edited May 24, 2023 by SunnyBeBe Link to comment
sistermagpie May 24, 2023 Share May 24, 2023 6 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said: I had a bad feeling about Renee. I think my suspicion grew when there was a scene of her car in a preview that never aired. At least, I don’t think it was ever explained. The vehicle was parked abruptly outside an empty building. This was the last couple of episodes. I’d have to hunt for it. Someone may recall what I’m describing. I remember the discussion about it a lot leading up to the finale--but I don't remember ever noticing it in the previews myself. There might be something in the old speculation thread? Having just gotten to the Renee stuff in my rewatch she really does seem so very off. 3 Link to comment
SunnyBeBe May 24, 2023 Share May 24, 2023 It’s been some time ago, so perhaps I forgot. I’ll poke around tomorrow. Link to comment
txhorns79 May 24, 2023 Share May 24, 2023 44 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I think he was the exact opposite to a monster to him there. He told him his suspicions because he didn't want him to be another Martha even if he was blowing some longterm Centre operation with Renee. Eh, Martha was planting bugs, reporting on activities and stealing records for Phillip. Stan is the guy who threatened to destroy his own life and take down the FBI in order to protect Oleg from CIA officers in Moscow. He was never going to be like Martha, even if Renee turned out to be a spy. I do wonder if Philip ever looked Martha up after he and Elizabeth returned to Russia. I'd be fascinated to see what she had to say to him. 2 Link to comment
Zella May 24, 2023 Share May 24, 2023 I think Philip actually meant the info about Renee in the kindest way possible, as a warning since shit was clearly going to already hit the fan for Stan once his closest friends and neighbors were outed as Soviet spies who'd been under his nose for years. At the same time, I think it would have probably been better for Stan to never have had the possibility introduced to him that his wife might also be an illegal KGB officer. 2 1 Link to comment
Chalby May 24, 2023 Share May 24, 2023 On 12/15/2019 at 5:24 PM, sistermagpie said: Just re-watched Martial Eagle. This is a heavy-hitter episode that sometimes seems to get forgotten except for Philip’s blow-up at Paige and her Bible. Watching it now, I got a lot more from it than I did the first time. (So this’ll be long.) Plotwise, Stan, focused on protecting Nina from Oleg, turns his attention to the Connors’s murders. Even if one doesn’t think Stan’s actions make sense for him as an FBI man and former undercover agent, he’s certainly consistent. He’s almost never guided by the ideals of the job. It’s always personal. Great line from Gaad when Stan says he feels somewhat responsible for Gaad’s upcoming dismissal: “You *are* responsible.” Sandra’s awesome in this ep. Stan comes home to find her packing and listening to Dr. Ruth (LOL), yet still doesn’t suspect she’s going away with a guy until she tells him she is. She points out the irony of how Stan’s a professional investigator who can’t see the people in his real life perhaps because he doesn't want to know (story of Stan’s life) and declares she’s not letting him be the good guy whose kooky wife left him for a guy in EST. She’s just not waiting around for him to get up the courage to leave. Stan’s completely gobsmacked, somehow. He takes no responsibility (even a little, like with Gaad!), says nothing about his behavior, apologize, ask Sandra to go on. All his questions he has are about his position: Is she telling him she’s having an affair? Who is the guy he can beat up for this? Is she leaving him? He really never gets over his inability to see the women in his life as independent people. This is the ep where we meet the Tims—and Tim is just as outrageous as I remember him. Imagine accepting $600 in 1981 money from a 14 year old and then acting like her father is being unreasonable for looking like he might pop you one and suggesting it would be better for Paige if he learned to control his anger! (Maybe it’d be better for Paige if you didn’t take all her money!) This ep sets up Philip’s arc for the rest of the series. After all the deaths at the ME camp, including the truck driver he tried to spare, Philip sinks into self-loathing, seeming to decide to just be an aggressive spy. He encourages Fred to think about the dead on the submarine they were tricked into killing when he’s questioned by the FBI, drops by Martha to play her the cruel tape he didn’t play her last week and explain to her that the world is full of terrible people (meaning himself) and then goes to see Pastor Tim in an echo of both the scene in the pilot where he beat up the mall creep and his not-yet-related childhood story about his mom getting his money back from the greedy foreman. In between he appears to spend an entire night staring at the ocean. His story is bookended by sermons from Tim, both of which are written to directly speak to Philip. In the first Tim talks about how people are put on the earth to be happy, and they only aren’t because they don’t see God’s intention—a sermon that of course means something very different to his comfortable middle class congregation than it would to someone w/bigger problems. But this is the very thing Philip will be trying to get in the future—a life. (Irina already said she was running for the same reason.) But he decides to do that after the closing scene where Tim preaches about everyone deserving compassion—iow, Philip isn’t beyond forgiveness. Elizabeth starts working Karen, the alcoholic. Using her real life as fodder (like she did with Brad), she says she wishes she had a chance to show Philip she is “there for him” the way he was for her during her 3-month recovery. She gets the chance she’s looking for in S5 when she says he should quit, but resents him once the novelty of feeling like a good person wears off. She can’t not keep score when it comes to personal sacrifice. (Look how furious she got when the Center dared to consider her a possible mole in Trust Me.) The first time I saw this ep, I was struck by the scene where Elizabeth tries to give Philip a pep talk after his blow-up with Paige, explaining that this is war, that Reagan’s crazy etc. Philip says he doesn’t need a speech. He knows it’s war, this is just easier for her. Elizabeth responds, “You think what I do is easy?” Somewhere, maybe on the podcast, the showrunners described this moment as one partner unfairly taking out their mood on the other and getting called on it and I was really surprised by that reading, because I thought whether or not Philip was stating the obvious. Obviously Elizabeth wasn’t that bothered by the dead truck driver. Obviously she was able to justify herself with speeches about Reagan hen he wasn’t. So to me, she was almost comically making it about herself when he was upset and the showrunners cheering her on seemed bizarre. But watching it now, the line reminded me of Philip telling her to act like a human in The Summit and I realized that while Philip’s “Am I A Monster?” story was more explicit, Elizabeth’s struggle with it is almost more difficult because it’s repressed and she's so ambivalent. That’s why she has that overreaction (imo) to the CIA agent telling her she has no soul etc. She’s so successful at acting cruelly people think she’s cruel, adding insult to injury. If all her ruthlessness isn’t a sacrifice for the greater good she’s just an evil person, so she has to keep doubling down on how good she is. Philip cares about the way many people see him, Elizabeth really mostly cares about how Philip sees her. She cares about the kids too, but Philip is the only one, imo, that she believes can see and understand her, which is why his opinions are most important. She goes to his room trying to “be there for him” by showing sympathy, seeing herself as the stronger soldier bucking up the softer one. But instead of admiring her strength, he suggests it’s just easier for her to kill innocent people (and he sure seems to be right). I was more sympathetic to her this time and saw this more as part of her whole development. Another small but telling moment is that after Philip rips up the Bible he storms out. Paige cries and runs out in the other direction. Elizabeth is left standing in the kitchen...and then she follows Philip. On many other shows OF COURSE the mom would run to the child to comfort her, but that is not the dynamic in this house. As Paige will say later, P&E look out for each other first. Really the final arcs for all three characters in some ways start here, imo. When they go to church Paige looks over at her parents. Philip is glaring at Pastor Tim. Elizabeth gives her an indulgent smile. I think Paige sees Philip being closed minded and “not getting it.” Though ironically it's because Philip is actually listening. It’s Elizabeth who’s closed-minded and faking it. But it fits with Paige’s later view of Philip where she seems to always take his disapproval of what’s happening to her as a sign he doesn’t get it or apathy. I guess there’s no explicit moment that tells us whether Paige eventually understood that her father actually was “into it.” Maybe that’s there in Elizabeth’s “including your father” response in Jennings, Elizabeth or in the garage, but who knows. More importantly, Elizabeth is lying about her attitude here and Philip is not. Elizabeth always seems to be doing better as a mom in Paige’s eyes when she’s lying like she does at work—either by going with her to church or handling her as a spy. Paige rejects Pastor Tim when she thinks his private thoughts contradict what he says to her in person and will reject Elizabeth as a liar as well. I think this is all meant to come crashing down when Paige confronts her mother in Jennings, Elizabeth and is there in the dialogue, but I don’t think it comes across as it should in large part because the performance I was reminiscing about how great this show was when I came upon your entry. Very well written and comprehensive. Thank you! 1 1 Link to comment
Chalby May 24, 2023 Share May 24, 2023 4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said: That is a great scene. My favourite part is when he is running he does stuff like (I think) take off his jacket and put on a hat. Things that would seem so obvious to do when cops are looking for someone with a certain description, but you never see on any other show. I have to add that whomever was in charge of the soundtrack is amazing. Put me back in time. 3 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie May 24, 2023 Share May 24, 2023 14 hours ago, txhorns79 said: Eh, Martha was planting bugs, reporting on activities and stealing records for Phillip. Stan is the guy who threatened to destroy his own life and take down the FBI in order to protect Oleg from CIA officers in Moscow. He was never going to be like Martha, even if Renee turned out to be a spy. I do wonder if Philip ever looked Martha up after he and Elizabeth returned to Russia. I'd be fascinated to see what she had to say to him. I didn't mean he'd wind up in Moscow, I meant he'd be in love with and married to someone who was using him and lying to him--again. Stan would much rather risk angering the CIA to protect Oleg on principle than he would want to consider that his true love is a lie and doesn't love him back. That's the cruel part. Philip's lie was painful enough, and Philip wasn't faking the friendship part. Like, if I was Martha's sister and saw how happy she was with Clark, but saw the whole situation was obviously shady, I might consider whether I should just keep my mouth shut and hope for the best because I didn't want to upset her, but I'd probably tell her my suspicions or try to check the guy out if I could because if I was Martha, I would want to know the truth rather than be happy and ignorant. That's why I think Philip feels like he owes it to Stan to tell him to look into Renee. 14 hours ago, Zella said: I think Philip actually meant the info about Renee in the kindest way possible, as a warning since shit was clearly going to already hit the fan for Stan once his closest friends and neighbors were outed as Soviet spies who'd been under his nose for years. At the same time, I think it would have probably been better for Stan to never have had the possibility introduced to him that his wife might also be an illegal KGB officer. I think it was meant to be kind too. I didn't even think of it as a warning because Stan would be under scrutiny, I just thought that now he could warn Stan he was being used. Ironically, it seems like Stan was sort of already drawing away from Renee at the same time as he was getting suspicious of Philip, wondering about whether he wanted her in the office all the time and not sharing his suspicions with her. But like i said above, whether someone would choose to be ignorant and happy or know the truth even if it's painful is subjective. If Stan checks out Renee and finds out she's a spy, he has more time to find real love than he would if they were together for years and then she was found out. I realize that my own feelings color how I think about it though, since not only would I absolutely rather be alone than be a sucker, I think it would be healthier for Stan if he stopped choosing easy relationships over true ones. But Stan himself might never be ready to look at himself closely to think about that. 4 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie May 24, 2023 Share May 24, 2023 17 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said: I had a bad feeling about Renee. I think my suspicion grew when there was a scene of her car in a preview that never aired. At least, I don’t think it was ever explained. The vehicle was parked outside an empty building and a police or FBI car pulls in front of it with lights on. It appears to be Renee’s car. I’d have to hunt for it. Someone may recall what I’m describing. ……..Found it. It’s about midway through. It’s very quick. Just a second. Does anyone recall what was happening and if that’s her car? Just watched it and I see what you mean. I tried to look at the scene where Renee's in the truck, thinking it might just be a similar truck? But it does look like the same truck that Renee drives. When I get to S6 I'll have to try to figure out where it's taking place at least, unless they cut the scene completely. Though it doesn't seem like they could have ever intended to explicitly out Renee as a spy, given the garage scene. 1 Link to comment
SunnyBeBe May 24, 2023 Share May 24, 2023 (edited) Anybody think a reunion special of this show is possible? A lot of the cast seems to be available. They couldn’t reunite present day without a lot of makeup, but they could do like a 10-20 years later event. Maybe a 6 episode series on Netflix? Edited May 24, 2023 by SunnyBeBe Link to comment
Kel Varnsen May 25, 2023 Share May 25, 2023 2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said: Anybody think a reunion special of this show is possible? A lot of the cast seems to be available. They couldn’t reunite present day without a lot of makeup, but they could do like a 10-20 years later event. Maybe a 6 episode series on Netflix? Is the cast available? The Diplomat seems like a pretty big hit for Keri Russell, it's already renewed for season 2 (plus movies she is in). And Matthew Rhys has Perry Mason. That said I would be totally down for some kind of wrap up movie set after the fall of the USSR. 1 Link to comment
Zella May 25, 2023 Share May 25, 2023 I honestly love the ambiguity of the ending. I'd totally watch a reunion movie or series, but I enjoy how the show wasn't afraid to leave questions unanswered. And not in a lazy way but just in a "life is complicated and messy" intentional sort of way. 1 1 Link to comment
SunnyBeBe May 25, 2023 Share May 25, 2023 Lol I didn’t realize Perry Mason was still in progress. Omg….I tried, but could not watch it. And, I love Matthew. I guess I was just feeling nostalgic. I would be up for another FX series though. 1 Link to comment
Zella May 25, 2023 Share May 25, 2023 Doesn't Cocaine Bear have Matthew, Keri, and Margo? Maybe it's the alternate universe reunion wherein the KGB is tasked with fighting high bears. 😂😂😂 Link to comment
sistermagpie May 25, 2023 Share May 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Zella said: I honestly love the ambiguity of the ending. I'd totally watch a reunion movie or series, but I enjoy how the show wasn't afraid to leave questions unanswered. And not in a lazy way but just in a "life is complicated and messy" intentional sort of way. I spent so much time worrying toward the end of the show that we'd get the montage, nailing everyone in place for years to come ending so many felt was necessary, so I was thrilled it ended in a total Chekhov way--just as it started, with P&E in a new country not knowing what's next. 53 minutes ago, Zella said: Doesn't Cocaine Bear have Matthew, Keri, and Margo? Maybe it's the alternate universe reunion wherein the KGB is tasked with fighting high bears. 😂😂😂 A lot of the actors naturally keep swimming in the same prestige TV acting pool, so it's funny how many of them keep winding up working together again. 1 1 Link to comment
Zella May 25, 2023 Share May 25, 2023 24 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: A lot of the actors naturally keep swimming in the same prestige TV acting pool, so it's funny how many of them keep winding up working together again. Yes! Whoever casts For All Mankind seems to be a fan too. I know there's a limited pool of fluent Russian-speaking actors in the US, so any 2 productions who has a number of Soviet characters will overlap, but that wouldn't explain Wrenn Schmidt being in both. 2 Link to comment
txhorns79 May 25, 2023 Share May 25, 2023 9 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Philip's lie was painful enough, and Philip wasn't faking the friendship part. Honestly, can any part of the friendship be real when everything about Philip is a lie, and his motivations for the friendship include simply keeping tabs on Stan and what might be going on at his office? The mail robot might be more sincere in its relationships! 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie May 25, 2023 Share May 25, 2023 16 hours ago, txhorns79 said: Honestly, can any part of the friendship be real when everything about Philip is a lie, and his motivations for the friendship include simply keeping tabs on Stan and what might be going on at his office? The mail robot might be more sincere in its relationships! Fruit of the poison tree and all, of course, but if nothing about Philip's feelings for Stan were real, he wouldn't be telling him about Renee. (Even Elizabeth from the start didn't buy Philip just wanted to work Stan.) Stan himself got blackmail material on Oleg and then threatened the CIA if they used it. People are complicated! The mail robot, let's face it, was a bit of a famewhore who would deliver for anybody for a little screentime. 1 4 Link to comment
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