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S02.E01: Acting Up


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Very briefly, and not to detail the thread (I don’t see a more appropriate one), I just now found out about this show. I’m extremely interested because of the subject matter, but I’m a little gunshy about Ryan Murphy shows. Does this feel like it’s gone off the rails/heading there soon? Or to put another way, “If Ryan Murphy shows are usually a little too much for me, should I give this one a try anyway?”

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Just now, kieyra said:

Very briefly, and not to detail the thread (I don’t see a more appropriate one), I just now found out about this show. I’m extremely interested because of the subject matter, but I’m a little gunshy about Ryan Murphy shows. Does this feel like it’s gone off the rails/heading there soon? Or to put another way, “If Ryan Murphy shows are usually a little too much for me, should I give this one a try anyway?”

Give it a try. If only for the fact that trans women of color are actually playing trans women of color. Unimaginable right?!! 

The show is very good. 

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5 hours ago, lovett1979 said:

Am I the only one who thought the photographer did not deserve that kind of treatment? What did Angel expect when he said that he knew who she was, and that he wanted her to pose for him for his "private collection"? She said yes, and was having a fantastic time during the photoshoot. Then all of a sudden, she's miserable and looking like she's being exploited like Coco in Fame. But she still let him take the pictures! Then regretted it and, instead of going to him and pleading for them not to be released (which I don't think he was going to do), they beat him up? Violence is never ok, but it's also pretty stupid when it's a friend of a person you are trying to have hire you.

I don’t think they should’ve beat him up, but the photographer was so sleezy and exploitative I’m not bothered. From the view we were given I 100% believe he would’ve sold those pictures, and had Angel been recognized her life could’ve been in danger. Trans women of color are at so much risk for violence in 2019 much less in 1990. He was clearly exploiting someone much lower on the social hierarchy than him and if he was truly just interested in his “private collection” he would’ve discussed it with her before the process got started. Not waited until she was done with hair and makeup AND offered him a payment plan in actual dollars. 

I don’t think he will say anything, being desirous of photos of pre-op trans women doesn’t exactly make you popular (even in the fashion world). Also he knew he was being a fucking creep. 

That said Angel is an adult woman (I think she’s 22/23), not a kid (which would make it child pornography), or even someone thisside of adulthood at 18/19- she had the right to say “no”. But I understand how desperate she was and didn’t think about it logically until he asked her to masturbate on film. 

Again he was the one with the power and he was being a creep. Just not a nice thing to do. I personally wouldn’t have hit him but I understand why they wanted to. 

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I like the show, so I'd say it's worthwhile if you want to see the world of 1980-90's, highlighting the beginning of the AIDS crisis, the underground ball culture, gay life in NYC, POC's struggles, a fashion show, etc.  You can view it as a history lesson with a slight exaggeration, courtesy of Ryan Murphy.

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15 minutes ago, patty1h said:

I like the show, so I'd say it's worthwhile if you want to see the world of 1980-90's, highlighting the beginning of the AIDS crisis, the underground ball culture, gay life in NYC, POC's struggles, a fashion show, etc.  You can view it as a history lesson with a slight exaggeration, courtesy of Ryan Murphy.

I’m an outsider looking in, but I’ve watched Paris is Burning about ten times and, well, you can see my avatar. So I’m absolutely intrigued. Thanks for the input.

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On 6/12/2019 at 5:21 PM, SnarkEnthusiast said:

The most unrealistic thing about the (multi-year?) time jump is that both Pray and Blanca's largely untreated HIV has barely progressed and remained magically asymptomatic, but I'm happy they're doing well. So they've kept their status secret from the entire house for years?

Well, Blanca was discussing her T cell count with Angel, so she knows. You'd think people would suspect that Pray Tell is infected too, based on his current attitude. 

On 6/12/2019 at 11:59 AM, LittleIggy said:

Time jump: That’s sure is one long Al B. Sure tour!

And where are the 4 guys who are currently living there all sleeping? The 3 women had the 3 bedrooms.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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17 hours ago, kieyra said:

Very briefly, and not to detail the thread (I don’t see a more appropriate one), I just now found out about this show. I’m extremely interested because of the subject matter, but I’m a little gunshy about Ryan Murphy shows. Does this feel like it’s gone off the rails/heading there soon? Or to put another way, “If Ryan Murphy shows are usually a little too much for me, should I give this one a try anyway?”

I thought Ryan Murphy was rather hands-off this show but looking at the writing credits, he's not.  (I think he's a better producer than long-term writer.)  But so far, it looks to be holding steady. Maybe it's because of the strong creative voices who are trans women behind the scenes, not just in front of the camera.  Or maybe it's because of the short seasons but so far, so good.

It's rather earnest. I also remember in the first season hearing that they didn't want to exploit the violence trans women face because there's enough of that on TV already. 

Edited by Irlandesa
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On 6/12/2019 at 8:59 AM, LittleIggy said:

Time jump: That’s sure is one long Al B. Sure tour!

According to the internet, some of Al B. Sure's tour dates and appearances in 1988-1990 (I'm not sure how complete this list is so there may be some dates missing):

6/4/88 Soul Train - Los Angeles, CA
7/31/88 KMEL Summer Jam - Mountain View, CA
9/23/88 USF Sun Dome - Tampa, FL
10/7/88 UIC Pavilion - Chicago, IL
11/9/88 Civic Arena - Pittsburgh, PA
11/13/88 Riverfront Coliseum - Cincinnati, OH
1/18/89 Ohio Center - Columbus, OH
3/4/89 Apollo Theater - New York, NY
3/10/89 Late Night with David Letterman - New York, NY
10/27/90 Soul Train - Los Angeles, CA

Of note: Al B. Sure toured with New Edition on their Heart Break tour in 1988-1989. According to this article:

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The original performance order was Bobby Brown was the opener, Al B. Sure! had the middle set and New Edition were the closers. The new proposed order was Al B. Sure! as the opening act, then Bobby Brown with an extended set followed by New Edition as the closers. The compromise was the new openers would be Al B. Sure!’s group/backup singers, The Gyrlz. Then came Al B. Sure!’s set, followed by Bobby Brown then New Edition in the final slot.

He had six hit songs during 1988-1990. Three songs were #1 on the R&B chart (Nite and Day, Off on Your Own, Missunderstanding), one peaked at #2 (If I'm Not Your Lover), one reached #3 (Rescue Me), and another hit #14 (Killing Me Softly).
 

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4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

According to the internet, some of Al B. Sure's tour dates and appearances in 1988-1990 (I'm not sure how complete this list is so there may be some dates missing):

6/4/88 Soul Train - Los Angeles, CA
7/31/88 KMEL Summer Jam - Mountain View, CA
9/23/88 USF Sun Dome - Tampa, FL
10/7/88 UIC Pavilion - Chicago, IL
11/9/88 Civic Arena - Pittsburgh, PA
11/13/88 Riverfront Coliseum - Cincinnati, OH
1/18/89 Ohio Center - Columbus, OH
3/4/89 Apollo Theater - New York, NY
3/10/89 Late Night with David Letterman - New York, NY
10/27/90 Soul Train - Los Angeles, CA

Of note: Al B. Sure toured with New Edition on their Heart Break tour in 1988-1989. According to this article:

He had six hit songs during 1988-1990. Three songs were #1 on the R&B chart (Nite and Day, Off on Your Own, Missunderstanding), one peaked at #2 (If I'm Not Your Lover), one reached #3 (Rescue Me), and another hit #14 (Killing Me Softly).
 

The internet is so amazing.

Off on your own is my favorite al.b.sure song. 

I mostly remember him for proudly rocking a unibrow.  

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15 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t think they should’ve beat him up, but the photographer was so sleezy and exploitative I’m not bothered. From the view we were given I 100% believe he would’ve sold those pictures, and had Angel been recognized her life could’ve been in danger. Trans women of color are at so much risk for violence in 2019 much less in 1990. He was clearly exploiting someone much lower on the social hierarchy than him and if he was truly just interested in his “private collection” he would’ve discussed it with her before the process got started. Not waited until she was done with hair and makeup AND offered him a payment plan in actual dollars. 

I don’t think he will say anything, being desirous of photos of pre-op trans women doesn’t exactly make you popular (even in the fashion world). Also he knew he was being a fucking creep. 

That said Angel is an adult woman (I think she’s 22/23), not a kid (which would make it child pornography), or even someone thisside of adulthood at 18/19- she had the right to say “no”. But I understand how desperate she was and didn’t think about it logically until he asked her to masturbate on film. 

Again he was the one with the power and he was being a creep. Just not a nice thing to do. I personally wouldn’t have hit him but I understand why they wanted to. 

I didn't get the impression the photographer was going to sell them, I think they were really for his "private collection," but part of the reason he has this collection is so he can re-live the joy of making a vulnerable and beautiful woman helpless, powerless and desperate.  Having the power that comes with knowing her secret.

To explain it to angel would have been recognizing her as a human being and respecting her and that didn't play into his fetish/fantasy.  He was getting off on objectifying her, terrorizing her, humiliating her and making her feel powerless.

Same thing with the money.  No way was that guy working out a payment plan with her.  The "special rate" would have always been out of her price range.  I think his goal was always to take amazing real  photos and trade on her desperation to get some for his private collection.

Edited by RealReality
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16 hours ago, kieyra said:

Very briefly, and not to detail the thread (I don’t see a more appropriate one), I just now found out about this show. I’m extremely interested because of the subject matter, but I’m a little gunshy about Ryan Murphy shows. Does this feel like it’s gone off the rails/heading there soon? Or to put another way, “If Ryan Murphy shows are usually a little too much for me, should I give this one a try anyway?”

The thing that worried me most in Season 1 about him "Ryan Murphy"-ing it up was him sort of shoe-horning in one of his frequent AHS actors in a way that felt vaguely off, but that actor/story line is gone for Season 2, so it seems to be holding up for me so far (also Season 1 got better as it went on and that story line seemed to diminish in favor of things that are front and center here in Season 2, at least to start). I'm another person who has bounced out of RM shows in the past after a season or two when it went off the rails, but so far, this feels fairly solid to me. And, for what it's worth, critics I generally trust who have seen more episodes of this season seem on board, too.

As for this episode, starting with Hart Island gutted me (I had seen the pictorial history linked to above before), but did do a good job of setting the tone of the times -- it took me back to that feeling of panic/heartbreak/horror that surrounded HIV/AIDS then. I love the optimism in the face of that shown by so many characters, but then it makes me melancholy since I know how the big picture things really turn out. *sigh*

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1 hour ago, RealReality said:

I didn't get the impression the photographer was going to sell them, I think they were really for his "private collection," but part of the reason he has this collection is so he can re-live the joy of making a vulnerable and beautiful woman helpless, powerless and desperate.  Having the power that comes with knowing her secret.

To explain it to angel would have been recognizing her as a human being and respecting her and that didn't play into his fetish/fantasy.  He was getting off on objectifying her, terrorizing her, humiliating her and making her feel powerless.

Same thing with the money.  No way was that guy working out a payment plan with her.  The "special rate" would have always been out of her price range.  I think his goal was always to take amazing real  photos and trade on her desperation to get some for his private collection.

I understand your perspective 100%. 

I would’ve had more respect for the photographer if he had seen Angel as a person and negotiated the two shoots UP FRONT, but you’re right that would’ve meant he respected her as a human which he didn’t. 

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I was most thrilled to see Jose Guitierez* (one of the original dancers in the Madonna Vogue video) at the end of the episode posing away in the center of the dance floor. 

*I am 99% certain it was him. 

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(edited)

(Aw crap. I checked out the pilot based on recs upthread, I didn’t realize there was going to be a Trump component. I need escapism! Yes I’ll probably keep watching, like it very much so far otherwise. And sorry for the intrusion, I’ll take any further comment to the appropriate episode threads.)

Edited by kieyra
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4 hours ago, kieyra said:

I didn’t realize there was going to be a Trump component. I need escapism!

Eh.  I wouldn't worry about it.  One character works at Trump Towers (or his company).  Trump is referred to but this was long before he entered politics.  And he is never seen. It's more about a representation about the excesses of late 80s Wall Street in comparison to the extravagance of the Ball Scene.

Edited by Irlandesa
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On 6/12/2019 at 12:36 PM, AgentRXS said:

Oh, Blanca. How I wished "Vogue" worked out the way you wanted it to. I wonder what she is going to make of Rupaul in a few years.

Part of me hopes that RuPaul appears on the show as herself at some point, “about to release my first dance single!” (Which was 1993.)  Now there’s someone who has not aged at all.

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On 6/13/2019 at 2:49 PM, 12catcrazy said:

And kind of a weird question from me here: Angel is stunningly beautiful - probably one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen on tv.   You can see how the straight men all want her, but I don't get the thing with Pepi.  Isn't he supposed to be gay?  Why would a transgender woman be that attractive to a gay man, who logic would tell me would want a man and not a woman?   What am I not getting here?  

I don't think Lil Papi's sexual orientation has ever been specified, at least as far as I can remember, and what it seems you're not getting here is that gender identity and sexual orientation are often a little more fluid than that. Queer folks come in a variety of flavors.

Edited to add: I didn't see the response from Angelsmom1009 before I posted this. I think they explained it FAR better than I did!

Edited by apollonia666
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On 6/13/2019 at 2:49 PM, 12catcrazy said:

So I'm super thrilled that Pose is back!  That being said, I still think Elektra's  over the topness (i.e. "overacting" by the actress) is  part and parcel of who Elektra is supposed to be.    This is a person who you know grew up watching every Joan Crawford/Bette Davis/Marlene Dietrich/name any actress/so-called "women's films" from the 30s through the 50s.   These movies were a staple of tv when I was growing up (60s - 70s) and Elektra is projecting that kind of drama.  The clothes, the furs, the just too much of everything is just enough, along with the Attitude in Spades.  Hollywood fantasy which average women drank up and America's Drag Queens took as inspiration.  

Agreed. I think Elektra's over the top-ness is intentional, but would work better in the hands of a better actress.

But, that said, whenever I see Elektra, I think of one person. Omarosa. Who is so like Elektra in so many ways. Her look, her style, her haughty air, her way of clearly enunciating each and every word, her attention to every detail of her carefully curated persona.

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9 hours ago, Pepper Mostly said:

But, that said, whenever I see Elektra, I think of one person. Omarosa. Who is so like Elektra in so many ways. Her look, her style, her haughty air, her way of clearly enunciating each and every word, her attention to every detail of her carefully curated persona.

Plu-ease, Omarosa could never be as fabulous as Elektra.

Did anyone recognize Jiggly Caliente from RuPaul's Drag Race as one of the House of Ferocity members in the SlimFast scene?

So all the white actors from season 1 are gone? I wish Evan Peters and James Vanderbeek could have stayed around a little bit longer, even though their characters were complete douchbags.

Edited by Mattipoo
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18 minutes ago, Mattipoo said:

Did anyone recognize Jiggly Caliente from RuPaul's Drag Race as one of the House of Ferocity members in the SlimFast scene?

Jiggly's been on since last season! I was so glad to see her, and not wearing baked-potato couture 😛

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6 hours ago, Mattipoo said:

Did anyone recognize Jiggly Caliente from RuPaul's Drag Race as one of the House of Ferocity members in the SlimFast scene?

Last season she was working in the clothing store where the other characters were shopping.

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On 6/13/2019 at 7:14 PM, kieyra said:

Very briefly, and not to detail the thread (I don’t see a more appropriate one), I just now found out about this show. I’m extremely interested because of the subject matter, but I’m a little gunshy about Ryan Murphy shows. Does this feel like it’s gone off the rails/heading there soon? Or to put another way, “If Ryan Murphy shows are usually a little too much for me, should I give this one a try anyway?”

I avoided the whole first season during its original run for two reasons: I'm transgender and I'm familiar with Ryan Murphy shows.   Life presents enough problems, I figured I didn't need additional aggravation from the genius behind Glee and American Horror Story (one of the worst shows of the new century, IMO).  No doubt he would exploit the subject matter and turn it into a weekly freak show. 

I finally watched because I ran out of other shows to stream.   I was hooked by the first or second episode.   I was in my twenties in the 80's and living far from NYC.   But I followed the ballroom scene best as I could in the pages of the Village Voice, saw Paris is Burning in the local art cinema when it came out, etc.

I think Pose is a fairy-tale retelling of that time, but valuable in the history it imparts.  A bit didactic and simplistic in the latter regard but that's probably best for this medium because attention spans today aren't what they used to be.   

Pose is a cleaned-up, glammed-up recreation of one of the most flamboyant episodes of LGBT history, but it is just one aspect.   I hope audiences don't come away believing it tells the whole story of what it is to be transgender.   Not all transgender people belonged to the gay community (then or now), nor were all transgender people embraced by the gay community (then or now).   Pose blurs the lines between gay, gender-nonconforming, and gender-dysphoric people, but there were distinctions and biases at work back then (as they are today), even in that subculture.

I think AIDS is the bigger and more important story to be told by this series, and seeing it through the eyes of the ballroom community is a poignant way to do that. 

Pose is a delight to watch for several reasons.  The actors are very good (and despite all the shade she gets I would contend that Elektra's unique delivery makes her scenes all the more vivid and memorable).   The people are beautiful (Indya Moore makes me feel like never leaving the house again).  The cinematography and the wardrobe are fantastic, the period music is wonderful and the writing is a lot of fun (especially Billy Porter's killer oratories while hosting the balls).   What I like best of all is that the show has heart.   You actually care about the characters.

For all these reasons I think Pose actually transcends Ryan Murphy and makes his involvement not an issue.   So far.

On 6/20/2019 at 3:57 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Last season she was working in the clothing store where the other characters were shopping.

As I recall, Trace Lysette, formerly of "Transparent" was also in the clothing store scene.

Edited by millennium
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On 6/12/2019 at 12:07 PM, islandgal140 said:

Not looking forward to Blanca's disillusionment when the song Vogue doesn't make the impact she thought it would.

You would think the "Vogue" video would have given Blanca a hint.   Thoroughly sanitized, it features not a single drag queen or trans woman and no identifiable trace of ball culture other than the dance moves, which were surgically extracted from their original context and repurposed for Madonna's needs.

I have liked Madonna from the start, and she has been a wonderful advocate for the L, G, and B members of the LGBT community.  But transgender people?   Virtually ignored. 

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Still a little uneven. I appreciate that to some degree they want to make this show into a kind of historical record... visiting the mass graves and the heart-shaped stones, talking about donations of leftover AZT, Act Up meetings and protests, etc. This supplements the knowledge of this time in history for those who were not alive and not taught this in schools or who were willfully ignorant of it at the time. 

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I liked Pray protesting & fighting the good fight, I just wish he hadn’t gone from “don’t drag me in there with your privileged white people” & fully woke in like 5 seconds. 

I'm conflicted. I think... they tried. Were these groups predominantly white? I feel like they were like... we have one black lesbian and then that was the end of the conversation. And yes it was a shortcut but Pray Tell had been looking for something to do with all the death in his life and they needed to get their original characters into a historical moment. So... eh? They tried.  

I was curious where they would go with the Madonna Vogue thing. Blanca was obviously too optimistic and Pray was too pessimistic so I was curious to see what they would let happen in the lives of the characters. Obviously Madonna wasn't going to swoop in and save the day but it didn't mean none of them would be able to capitalize on the momentary popularity to improve their lives in some way.

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Angel's thing with the skeevy photographer felt contrived. It's not that I doubt that kind of thing in the fashion business. But it was contrived to have him recognize her from the piers. That was an unnecessary detail and too convenient. And I get that they wanted a Fame moment but it didn't really fit the character of Angel who has worked in a Peep Show booth and as a prostitute to be uncomfortable being naked and doing something sexual at the behest of someone else. I'm not saying she couldn't have still felt exploited and violated in that moment but they needed to have her explain the difference. Maybe the fact that it was captured on film or the fact that she was trading for something but not getting paid made her feel more powerless and like it was an even more unfair transaction. Something.

Beating up the photographer felt like the wrong way to handle it. Like, she's trying to be a professional and the woman at the agency recommended him so he must be connected. It would be different if she'd gone to find someone herself. 

I didn't mind Pray's reading of Elektra because he walked off at the end. I didn't take that as a regular occurrence but that he was so fed up that he had an emotional outburst. 

So Elektra is evil again? That was fast. Her acting in that table flipping scene was ATROCIOUS.

I hope Angel gets signed to a modeling agency but doesn't win the contest. I'm wary of anything that smells like Rachel getting the lead in Funny Girl. 

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This is a person who you know grew up watching every Joan Crawford/Bette Davis/Marlene Dietrich/name any actress/so-called "women's films" from the 30s through the 50s. 

I totally get that and the references but it just comes across as bad acting. If she's thinking something, you don't see it in her eyes. She just makes weird faces. There may be a bit of Claire Danes going on too. I know there are all these theories about acting but I don't think audiences actually want to see your messy feelings. They want to see an interpretation of feelings that's polished. People want to see kisses that look passionate and romantic, not the gross kissing people might normally do. No one wants to see your ugly crying. They want to see a glossy version of it. If this is what that actress looks like genuinely channeling some emotion, she needs to spend time in front of a mirror practicing. 

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