S03.E10: #truthorconsequence

[thewhiteowl]

On Election Day, Kirkman turns to his therapist to relieve his conscience about the events and own decisions he made 36 hours ago.

[phoenics]

I just finished.

I really do have to accept that the show I loved from S1 isn't coming back.  

I really don't want Aaron and Isabelle and the show is tripling down on that.  I don't want Emily unmoored - the show is tripling down on that.  Seth seems more and more irrelevant from the main story.  Everyone feels so disconnected - maybe that's because the whole season was them campaigning - but now that there is no Hannah - where's the suspense?  That was my favorite part - that and the hope of an Aaron/Emily matchup.

The show has successfully rebranded and remade itself into a West Wing show that talks about social issues without shying away from them.  Yay.

Except - that's not what I signed up for.

Don't get me wrong - in the end the social issues stuff was all that kept me watching because I wasn't getting the rest of it - but it's not enough.  I wanted the big, all encompassing conspiracy theories.  The theme music in the intro gives that feeling and now the show doesn't deserve it anymore.  It's not 24 meets the West Wing anymore.

It's not even Scandal meets 24 since they killed Hannah off.

Now it's Passions meets the West Wing.  The ONLY redeeming thing are the social issues - but that's not enough.  Okay and Aaron.  But since they are still pushing the romance on me that I didn't want (Isabelle), even he's not enough.

[atlantaloves]

Well, I for one, loved it. Even though it was sorta boring every now and then with various people in the hospital, I enjoyed it and was very entertained. The gal who played the campaign manager Zimmer was fantastic!  Very good acting and Kiefer was outstanding, as always. 

[Darkeyes]

Well, it was better than S2, but that one was such a dumpster fire that anyone could write a better season of TV.

I think we’re supposed to want Isabel with Aaron, but so far people either don’t like her and/or still want Aaron with Emily. I didn’t like it how Isabel seemed to think Aaron’s identity (which is based on his feelings) was somehow her business. There’s no reason to really hate her, but I wouldn’t even blink an eye if she got hit by a bus and died.

Looks like they have another failed ship (didn’t resonate with the fans) in their hands in Aaron/Isabel. I don’t honestly understand what’s so difficult about just writing a proper Aaron/Emily romance. The truth is that they’re the most popular ship the show’s ever had and likely will ever have. You would think they wanted as many old fans back as possible to have a chance at a renewal, but it looks like they thought they could convert people to Aaron/Isabel. Smart show runners give people what they want, but try go for surprising ways of making it happen instead of slapping them in the face with a ship nobody wants.

The Kirkmans were well liked too, but they didn’t have a choice there because of Natasha McElhone’s other work, but they have a choice now. So I urge them to do the right thing and stop forcing down another ship people hate down fans’ throats when the obvious choice is right in front of them.

[preeya]

Not sure how to comment on the reprieve, except to say it's different, very different. That said comparisons to the "old style" seasons 1 & 2 don't seem fair. The "no-barrier" language put the series much closer to reality.

Never have I seen two males going at it on TV.

It seems Netflix's goal was to address every possible issue they could jam into the framework of 10 episodes.

IMO, the campaign manager (Lorraine) was absolutely unbearable. I just did not like her.

As the season closed, there are only three people that know about Kirkman's untold knowledge of the recording, Kirkman, Emily, and the doctor.  Kirkman could very well leave it at that if he can live with himself. Also, it will be interesting to see how the arrest of Lorraine could/will affect his decision.

Spoiler

Hated the fact that "Badass Hannah Wells" met her demise.

If there is a season 4:  Kirkman needs to get laid. I say that in a respectful way. He and the country need a first lady. Also, it would immediately stoke some new issues and definitely new drama. Think Michael Douglas and Annette Bening in a more serious light.

Edited June 10, 2019 by preeya
additional text

[phoenics]

12 hours ago, preeya said:

Not sure how to comment on the reprieve, except to say it's different, very different. That said comparisons to the "old style" seasons 1 & 2 don't seem fair.

It's a completely fair comparison if what drew you to the show was in S1 or S2.  It's part of the decision fans have to make about whether they want to watch.  For some folks, West Wing + Social Issues is enough.  For others - not so sure.

I think if the show had given me Aaron + Emily I might have been able to forgive the new format.  As it is, I don't think I'll be back next season.  I find myself rewatching S1 and it's just so much better.  Even the campy, ridiculous plotlines are better because they are fun.  The new version takes itself even more seriously (if that's possible) and is even MORE earnest - without the intense suspenseful drama of stuff blowing up every other episode (which I loved).

I guess I'm just not a pure drama kind of tv watcher.  I love shows with hella action, suspense and romance.

This ... just isn't that anymore.  They made that clear when they killed off Hannah.

[marinw]

On 6/10/2019 at 10:56 AM, preeya said:

If there is a season 4:  Kirkman needs to get laid. I say that in a respectful way.

OMG so much this. Bring back Lady Elon Musk from season two.

The VEEP was only in one episode, Huh. And where is Leo? Surely he could show up for Election Night.

Like  @atlantaloves I loved this season too. It had big important social issues with ridiculous plots. Anf Kiefer making speeches always makes me happy. Anthony Edwards made nice sppeches too.

Edited June 17, 2019 by marinw

[Roseanna]

On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 6:37 AM, Darkeyes said:

I think we’re supposed to want Isabel with Aaron, but so far people either don’t like her and/or still want Aaron with Emily. I didn’t like it how Isabel seemed to think Aaron’s identity (which is based on his feelings) was somehow her business. 

I was for Aaron and Emily in S1, but since it never happened for the reason that was never explained in S2, I found Aaron and Isabel an interesting couple although they would have been more interesting if we had been shown their romance from the beginning.

Somehow Isabel reminded of Alex Kirkman: she was more radical than Aaron and she didn't hide her opinions but tried to influence on him via "the kitchen way". At first it seemed that she didn't understand the political realities that Limited Aaron's action but in the end Aaron was shown to have been too cowardly, or rather thinking too much "inside the box". In short, she challenged him in a good way and made him a better man.

As for Aaron's identity, since they were living together, of course it was also her business. By changing his name, Aaron had denied his roots and pretend to be somebody else whereas Isabel had chosen the harder way. I don't blame on Aaron who of course had a right to chose the method he thought was the surest way to succeed, but in the end he only succeeded in the elections because Isabel guided him to embrance his heritage and to become the champion of those who couldn't choose.

It was interesting to compare the three couples in S3. In the beginning Mars and his wife seemed to have most problems: the wife was an addict, Mars had an long affair and they even admitted that he had married her in order to succeed in politics. Yet, they seemed to be happy in the end - unless Mars didn't just pretend and manipulate his wife to run because he and Kirkman needed support in the Senate. 

Also, concealing the HIV in the beginning of realationship seemed to be a deathknoll in the realationship, especially as it was an elemental breach of trust, but in the end the tube vizard and bodygard seemed happy too. 

On the surface Aaron and Isabel seemed to have least problems but it was just they who didn't succeed. Yes, he cheated her but it was only one night and it seemed he right after it repented his mistake (perhaps the greatest mistake was to confess?). I can understand Isabel's charge that "you don't take me seriously" and there was really cases Aaron didn't but there was also cases he did. Maybe it was really a difference in age and status that separated them?           

[MichaelaRae]

Okay, so the whole talking-to-someone-just-off-camera sitting there in a black turtleneck - that was SO Tom Cruise in the crazy $cientology video. That HAD to be deliberate. I could NOT not see it the whole time, so much so that it was distracting.  I feel like Keifer just tweaked TC hard. LOL

Edited June 19, 2019 by MichaelaRae

[Roseanna]

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 4:56 PM, preeya said:

As the season closed, there are only three people that know about Kirkman's untold knowledge of the recording, Kirkman, Emily, and the doctor.  Kirkman could very well leave it at that if he can live with himself. 

Why wouldn't he? Because he found himself human just as anybody else? I think the whole story was childish. Just as the idea that an outsider who becomes POTUS by chance, is virtuous and yet capable to cure any ills of society, f.ex. the slums. 

Also, again Kirkman said that the US is the greatest country - yet DS shows a country that lacks the basic element of a successful society: trust. Can you imagine any other Western country where a governor wouldn't trust the president who warns him of intentional epidemic but claims a president is lying to win the elections?

Of course that wouldn't be a weakness in a show that was purely fantasy, but DS tries to connect elements like "an evil scientist" with a real settings.    

[Guest]

I didn't realize the season was only 10 episodes, so I wondered why they were wrapping up certain plots so quickly.

This episode was a mess - I didn't need to hear him confessing to his therapist as it played out in flashbacks. I did laugh when the therapist said something about how he treated the White House press - mainly because I see that actor and think he's Danny Concanon from The West Wing. 

Overall, the season was so uneven. It was like it couldn't figure out a direction or even what the show is about anymore. For the most part, the new characters didn't work for me. The scientist and new computer guy were the exceptions. Isabella was awful.  Sasha was okay but underdeveloped.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, deaja said:

Isabella was awful

Truly, she was dreadful. I guess Isi was supposed to have one of those redeemed character arcs, but instead they just had her apologize to orphaned Emily in the finale and suggested they might be friends in the future. 

I agree, Hannah's scientist friend was great. They had a nice banter as is often developed between characters who have little in common. It gave them a chance to do exposition for the audience more organically since Hannah needed the biology explained and the sci guy needed whatever it is Hannah did explained.

[phoenics]

On 6/17/2019 at 2:34 AM, Roseanna said:

As for Aaron's identity, since they were living together, of course it was also her business. By changing his name, Aaron had denied his roots and pretend to be somebody else whereas Isabel had chosen the harder way.

Unless Aaron had a secret identity this whole time and Isabella didn't know he was latino and then BAM! she found out - no she still doesn't have the right to demand he identify the way she wanted him to.  Sure - she can call him a sellout, but I find this kind of judgment reductive and short sighted.  It completely ignores and whitewashes (heh) the system of white supremacy that forces people who aren't straight and white to assimilate in order to get ahead.  "Otherness" is often punished.

She had good points - but I found her irritating and grating.  I also found it completely unrealistic that someone as unable to fly under the radar as she was and completely unable to pick her battles would even be in the position she was in.  She and her strident ass would have been kicked to the curb a long time ago.  She wasn't elected like AOC - she held a position and could have been fired at any moment.  And given her complete inability to learn to choose her battles - she never would've made it to the White House in the first place.  She would have been labeled "difficult" ages ago and relegated to some back office or a nonprofit.

I wish the show had given better examples of that instead of the pie in the sky version it gave us instead.  Maybe that's why even the "social" issues part vexed me - it wasn't even realistic.

[shapeshifter]

3 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I also found it completely unrealistic that someone as unable to fly under the radar as she was and completely unable to pick her battles would even be in the position she was in. 

OMG, I just realized Isi on DS is the same as Jillian on Salvation.
There must be a trope named for this role, right?

[Katsullivan]

On 6/8/2019 at 5:35 PM, phoenics said:

It's not even Scandal meets 24 since they killed Hannah off.

I want to believe that she'll come back in season 4. I can't believe that the show didn't go the direction of making Hannah/Kirkman eventual endgame. 

[atlantaloves]

Well, me, I LOVED IT! I a such a Kiefer fan, there is just nothing you can do with me. Ha. He's my guy. Adored the new series even with some of its flaws. 

[chaifan]

I'm in the camp that thought this season was a disjointed mess.  I've said it before, the whole Hannah battles the bioweapon subplot could have been a totally separate show.  If you removed every one of those scenes and showed someone the remaining show they would never think they were missing anything.  The only connection it had to the main plot was bringing down Moss at the very end.  And if that was the only reason for the Hannah/bioweapon plot, it could have been done a lot simpler (finance scandal, lover, gay lover, or even just the "minorities are taking over!  aaagh!" video). 

I felt a lot of the social issues were force fed, horribly awkward writing and forced delivery by the actors.  I wanted to Kirkman to lose just so Mars would be unemployed and get off my screen.  (Seriously - Mars?  What kind of name is that?) 

I love Kal Penn, and actually liked his tangential plot line.  He was just so geeked to be a dad, even if only in the most technical sense.  And I really liked Sasha.  The character really seemed to be totally ret-conned in for this season, but she worked as a good moral compass for Kirkman.  (And I loved the red dress she had on at the party.)

And, where the hell did Leo go?  I really didn't want to see him - annoying character - but he wasn't even mentioned, was he?  I don't care where he was or what he had going, does anyone really think he'd miss his dad's acceptance speech? 

I really don't care if there's a season 4.  I think they should just end it here.

[marinw]

8 hours ago, chaifan said:

And, where the hell did Leo go? 

And where did VEEP go after the first episode? I wanted her to go through with running for the Democratic ticket.

[Sake614]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

And where did VEEP go after the first episode? I wanted her to go through with running for the Democratic ticket.

They kind of skipped past the whole primary season and Fast forwarded to the general election. The time jump threw me completely from episode 1 to 2.  Suddenly it’s six months later and Emily is walking into the WH. But in what capacity? 

And in the end, what difference does it make if Moss knew about the bio weapon? The leaked video of him talking about how the shift in demographics was going to be bad for their party was enough to turn the tide. And clearly he (or his campaign) didn’t do a very good job vetting his spokesman if they didn’t know he was a racist nut job.

[Sake614]

Another thing...Kirkman wasn’t re-elected since he wasn’t elected the first time. I know it’s nit picky but still...

[healthnut]

I was thinking they broke up Isabel & Aaron to leave room for Aaron/Emily but they went and made Isabel pregnant. Unless she’s going to pull an Olivia Pope, I guess this leads to the, getting back together and a marriage proposal. I’ll pass. 

Mars’s wife running for Senate is just completely unrealistic. Was their a point to him having an affair? 

I don’t know if they should have a S4 either, I’m torn. I never watched The West Wing so I don’t know if the comparison is good or bad. 

[rr2911]

I just finished season 3 on Netflix. It's still one of my favorite shows but I think DS didn't need an R-rated version to keep afloat. Season 3 had a different feel from the others, but still a very good one. Looking forward to season 4.

Maybe this was discussed already, but did anyone notice the "24"  Easter Egg in one of the episodes? I believe it was Penny who was wearing a safety bike/skateboard helmet. The manufacturer's name of the helmet?  Bauer. If you're a 24 fan, you would know Kiefer Sutherland played CTU agent Jack Bauer.        

[rr2911]

Speaking of 24. I read an article the other day about several Easter Eggs referencing the show or characters of 24. There is enough Eater Eggs that one fan theory has Jack Bauer in a Russian prison (Bauer turned himself in to the Russians in mini series of 24) writing novels. One of the titles of his novels? Designated Survivor. Pretty fun stuff!

[marinw]

1 hour ago, rr2911 said:

The manufacturer's name of the helmet?  Bauer. If you're a 24 fan, you would know Kiefer Sutherland played CTU agent Jack Bauer.        

I noticed that too.

[transitfan]

On 7/6/2019 at 7:53 AM, marinw said:

And where did VEEP go after the first episode? I wanted her to go through with running for the Democratic ticket.

In one of the earlier episodes, I think she resigned, I forget why

[transitfan]

On 7/5/2019 at 11:31 PM, chaifan said:

And, where the hell did Leo go?  I really didn't want to see him - annoying character - but he wasn't even mentioned, was he?  I don't care where he was or what he had going, does anyone really think he'd miss his dad's acceptance speech? 

I think there was a scene where Tom and Penny are talking and they mention him, don't recall the details.  As for Leo's absence, maybe Taylor Buchanan was not available.  Just checked on IMDb and he was in 2 movies that came out this year, plus 3 more that have wrapped.  Still, I'm sure he could have showed up for one day of filming and come out with Tom, Sasha and Penny when Tom was about to give his speech.  Who knows?

[mythoughtis]

We went from the ethical designated  survivor in Season 1 to the true politician in Season 3 that tossed his ethics aside for the election.  We went from a family man who couldn’t even be bothered to call Leo once in 10 episodes.  That wouldn’t have required the actor at all.   Oh, but he gained a sister in law that we never heard of before.  
I don’t know what happened to the previous actors in the White House roles, but they should have been invited and  encouraged to stay.  We didn’t need to reinvent the wheel here.  
This season left a very bad taste to me. 

[marinw]

1 hour ago, mythoughtis said:

This season left a very bad taste to me. 

Also, the VEEP showed up for the first episode and then vanished. WTF? Kirkamn running agianst his own Vice President would have been more interesting.