S05.E22: Legacy

[adora721]

28 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I think you might be right. We might not get an official announcement that Carlos is recurring, but that will be the case.

Wasn't Wally supposed to be back for a few episodes this S5?  Look how that turned out. Here's hoping CV does actually appear in S6, but it may only be long enough to

Spoiler

die in COE.

.

[Argenta]

- I seem to be in a minority (on these here forums at least) in having loved Nora all along, so I'm sad that she was erased. But since her coming back changed so much, there's no reason to think her future life won't work out differently and a version of her will survive. I really hope we see JPK again on this show. 

- Although I long to see Matt Letscher return, I love Eobard in any form so I'm happy he escaped. Always one step ahead. Funny thing though, although he obviously did manipulate and deceive Nora, his  Master Plan was basically...not being executed. Which is hardly evil in itself. 

-So much eyeliner on post-escape Eobard, for a moment I thought I was watching Nestor Carbonell. Also, in between breaking his restraints and killing the guards he apparently super-sped off to dye his hair. 

- GO SINGH! We knew you knew, you know. About time he got a promotion after all the trouble his underlings (yes, YOU, Barry and Joe) have caused him in the last five years.

-  I agree that Cisco ditching his powers made zero sense, if for no other reason than that they've saved the day, and people's lives, multiple times. He may well regret his decision the next time Team Flash find themselves in a tight spot that Vibe could have got them out of. 

[Quark]

I thought the finale was thoroughly entertaining and Candice Patton and Grant Gustin are great actors.

I particularly liked how well everyone worked together to take down Rerverse Flash.

I found it hilarious when Ralph was hit by the gun, as well as the Time Sphere hitting Thawne.

Looking forward to next season, although I do hope Barry can beat Thawne once and for all.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Quark

[Trini]

This was sad and beautiful. Kudos to the crew, director, and the SFX team:

https://tmhollandss.tumblr.com/post/184894807753

[scarynikki12]

If you want to discuss the Crisis crossover you may do so here. Crisis spoilers are allowed so keep this in mind.

[SimoneS]

Kudos to Grant and Candace for their performances last night! They are talented actors who elevate the show when given good material. They both did great work showing Barry and Iris' heartbreak at losing their daughter. The writing lets them down too often. Instead of parenting adult Nora, I would have liked to have seen them struggling to deal with the knowledge that they lose each other maybe for good in a few years.   

Jessica Parker Kennedy is talented and was a great addition, but the writing for Nora was so abysmal at times. I read that she had problems finding work after Black Sails ended, I hope that changes with the positive reviews and publicity she has received from her stint on The Flash.

[miasth]

I keep thinking about Barry's speed force ramblings when he got out and the fact some were shown to be about events or people (Nora) from the future.  He said we are going to need more diapers then chuckles and based on that I had suspected from the beginning Nora was going to be erased.  I think Iris will be pregnant and they will be shocked to find out its twins hence Barry's diapers crack.

Candice Patton and Grant Gustin always bring it when given the chance and episode 22 was no exception. 

Cisco  taking the cure was not surprising considering his attitude this season.  Even if Valdes wants to leave they could have found a better way to handle it.  

I forgot about Singh revealing he knew.  I loved how he looks square at Barry when he called him flash.  Barry couldn't even form words in an attempt to deny it.  

Edited May 16, 2019 by miasth

[BkWurm1]

It's really weird how the show presented this ending as a win for the team when Thawne won and the only reason he got out was because they tried to keep Cicada from killing Nora, but she basically died anyway.  Why are they so ok with all of this?  They failed their daughter utterly.  Nora owned her mistake in trusting Thawne but by killing/erasing Nora (it's more of a kill because she's not forgotten) they've cemented that future Iris's poor choices sent Nora right into Thawne's hands getting her killed. That's a horrible legacy for Iris to have to live with.  That neither Barry nor Iris are more torn up creeps me out about them.  They both seem more like their dog died than their kid.  Smiling about being proud she'd rather die than RISK getting turned evil (whatever happened to where there is life there is hope?) seemed to happen far too quickly.  And from the way they were talking, (About Barry wanting Nora to be remembered as his Legacy) neither Iris nor Barry plan on having replacement kids before he vanishes.  How are they not more deeply bummed by this huge failure? 

Yes they saved young Grace and the Metas, but that should be like a professional victory that pales in the wake of their personal tragedy. 

I guess my takeaway is that their "love" for Nora was about as shallow as one really would expect with insta grown kid that you've known only about a year.  Barry has admitted to not really feeling it for a long time. I guess I'm just disappointed that once the initial shock wore off in the moment, they are both pretty ready to continue business as usual.  All of them are.  The whole team is so blase about Nora's death and Thawne's escape.  Even Joe only offered an almost indifferent "I'm sorry".  Like offering condolences about someone he didn't know.   

I guess I'm willing to give Iris a small benefit of the doubt but Barry seems pretty unaffected.  This clinging to a belief that they'd see Nora again, based on NOTHING, seems like them giving themselves an easy out.  Poor Nora.  Wanting to know her dad got her killed.  Thanks Barry.  

[sarthaz]

4 hours ago, Argenta said:

- I seem to be in a minority (on these here forums at least) in having loved Nora all along, so I'm sad that she was erased. But since her coming back changed so much, there's no reason to think her future life won't work out differently and a version of her will survive. I really hope we see JPK again on this show. 

JPK was great. Much better than most of the series regulars. The writing for Nora was often terrible, but her performances were fantastic.

[adora721]

A  dirge for XS:

There was a girl

A very fast and stupid girl

They say she wandered very far

Very far, over time and space

Gave Iris the stinky eye

But so unwise, was she

And then one day

One tragic day she passed Thawne’s way

While they spoke of many things

The Flash’s ring

He failed to say to her

The greatest thing

You'll ever learn

Is don’t trust me

For I will kill you

In return

[ottoDbusdriver]

I'm just pissed that Thawne got away ....... again.  

How come Shecada/Cicada 2 had new powers that she never used before in this episode ?

One minor nitpick about the time vault scene at the end -- while the main date on The Central City Citizen main page kept rolling back eventually to 2019, the date on Iris-West-Allen's byline keeps jumping all over the place randomly.  Plus, Iris has to pick up the pace if the CC Citizen will have News Feed, National, World, Business, Arts & Culture, Tech, Opinion, and Sports sections.

If you screengrab the CC Citizen in the Time Vault, you see that Green Arrow, White Canary, Supergirl, Batwoman and a slew of other legendary heroes were helping Flash battle Reverse Flash.

So, was Sherloque meeting an invisible woman at CC Jitters ?  So who opened the door ?

The time sphere was just stupid.  What the hell was the point of that ?  They paid good money for the prop, so they just had to use it again to justify the cost.

Even stupider was Nora tripping over one of the Reverse-Flashes on the side of that building.  Seriously ?

Was not upset the Nora or Cicada 2 were Marty Mcfly'd out of existence.

Edited May 16, 2019 by ottoDbusdriver

[adora721]

5 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Was not upset the Nora or Cicada 2 were Marty Mcfly'd out of existence.

Very Harry Potter-ish in the end result; erase one, erase the other.

[BkWurm1]

23 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Nora disappearing is karma for Sara Diggle, Barry. Can no one in this generation of heroes raise their daughter to adulthood?!

Felicity Smoak can!  (Sorry William)

23 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I still hate Tom's whisper acting.

Maybe he lost his voice after all the screaming he did for fifteen years of his guard torturing him for fun.  

22 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Another thing I liked about the finale is that the writers created a credible scenario where Team Flash had no choice, but to destroy the dagger and knowing that that might happen, Team Flash was smart enough to have a back up plan in place to use Nora's ability to rewind time to stop Thawne. After a season full of episode after episode of failure, Team Flash finally showed that it had a brain and came through.

But their back up plan completely failed.  Nora still died.  Thawne got away.  

15 hours ago, Trini said:

I

I think there were - mostly - satisfying endings for everyone's arcs, but so many plot holes if you just think about them for a second. Destroying the dagger in the past should NOT just erase the dagger in the future, it should create a whole new timeline. I was expecting Thawne to escape, but it didn't make sense the way they did it.

Yeah, the moment the dagger vanished in the past should have meant that Eobard was never trapped in prison in the first place and Nora would have never been able to talk to him at all. And if freeing Thawne erased Nora, she should have vanished right with future Grace. 

[adora721]

38 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

They failed their daughter utterly.

This X a billion. I can't believe that Todd et. al. created such a lousy legacy for the first child of West-Allen. All the talk about Nora being, "The best of both us.", Nora being a hero, or feeling "pride" about Nora is wacko! There's nothing to be proud of that an almost 30 year old woman threw tantrums for 21 episodes, trusted a man she was constantly warned not to trust, demeaned and devalued the mother who raised her and loved her, and ignored the feelings of the father she worshipped.  While I didn't want her erased, I can't say I will miss her. Barry and Iris should be grateful for a take 2 on creating a child.

I do mourn the loss of Vibe and the fact that CS/KF are still on the show, ugh!

If Carlos is leaving, I'm sure he'll do very well in his future endeavors. He's already got a film in the can with some big name stars and that voice of his can serve him well if he goes to Broadway.

[BkWurm1]

17 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I'm just pissed that Thawne got away ....... again.  
 

So, was Sherloque meeting an invisible woman at CC Jitters ?  So who opened the door ?

I am at least happy they FINALLY explained why there are versions of Thawne still running around despite him vanishing in Barry's past.  The negative speedforce keeps him from being altered with the timeline...though does that mean that he wasn't full enough of negative speed force after hanging with the Star Labs's crew for 15 years?  More plot holes!

The "invisible woman" was supposed to be Sherlouque's girlfriend opening the door with her powers before she got to the door.  I'm guessing they couldn't get her back to film so just went with the special affect.  

Cisco erasing his powers didn't make much in story sense.  It could be that the Carlos is leaving or it could even be that TPTB said the Flash can't use Vibe's powers anymore (but let them keep Cisco) Or maybe it is as simple as depowering the team for whatever villain is around next season.  

It's a pity.  They finally used his powers in a way with the rest of the team that was a lot of fun to watch and smart and compelling.  Cisco randomly deciding because Thawn claims credit for giving Cisco his powers they are somehow tainted makes little sense.  Thawne made Barry too.  So such a weird message to send.  

Edited May 16, 2019 by BkWurm1

[ottoDbusdriver]

Thankfully with Nora gone, nothing will be described as 'schway' going forward.  

[tennisgurl]

Cisco giving up his powers just gets dumber and dumber the more I think about it. You would think the people who would want the meta *cure would be people like the guy last season who emitted radiation and couldn't control his powers, but Cisco has super cool and useful powers, that can have tons of practical applications even beyond being a superhero (you can take an instant vacation!) and have no more bad side effects, his friends and new girlfriend accept him fully, but he decides to give them up because...he just wants to be Cisco? Was he not Cisco this whole time, or losing himself to Vibe? Because if he was, I sure never saw it. Its like being "I am really good at math, but I dont want math to be all I am, so I am going to burn all calculators in my house and never speak of math ever again!" for no reason. Its all so poorly set up and out of character, it just kills me. 

And when you get right down to it, if he does stay with Team Flash, its kind of selfish. His powers were really important to the team, his ability to make portals was a major part of how Team Flash functioned, and now they have lost a major strength on their team. Its especially bad knowing that Crisis is coming, and they are going to need all the help they can get. Yeah he can still do a lot making tech (if he is staying on the team) but he was doing that anyway, and now they could be really screwed, just because Cisco was feeling needlessly angsty. I suspect that they might have gotten annoyed at how powerful Cisco was, and they needed excuses to nerf him so he didnt upstage everyone else, or take care of everything super quickly, so they did this. I mean, they could have easily handled that without getting rid of his powers for no reason, but this is what we got. 

I guess we will just have to find out if Carlos is sticking around, or will be leaving or just reoccurring. No matter what, it pisses me off, Cisco deserves better.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

It's really weird how the show presented this ending as a win for the team when Thawne won and the only reason he got out was because they tried to keep Cicada from killing Nora, but she basically died anyway.  Why are they so ok with all of this?  They failed their daughter utterly.  Nora owned her mistake in trusting Thawne but by killing/erasing Nora (it's more of a kill because she's not forgotten) they've cemented that future Iris's poor choices sent Nora right into Thawne's hands getting her killed. That's a horrible legacy for Iris to have to live with.  That neither Barry nor Iris are more torn up creeps me out about them.  They both seem more like their dog died than their kid.  Smiling about being proud she'd rather die than RISK getting turned evil (whatever happened to where there is life there is hope?) seemed to happen far too quickly.  And from the way they were talking, (About Barry wanting Nora to be remembered as his Legacy) neither Iris nor Barry plan on having replacement kids before he vanishes.  How are they not more deeply bummed by this huge failure? 

Yes they saved young Grace and the Metas, but that should be like a professional victory that pales in the wake of their personal tragedy. 

I guess my takeaway is that their "love" for Nora was about as shallow as one really would expect with insta grown kid that you've known only about a year.  Barry has admitted to not really feeling it for a long time. I guess I'm just disappointed that once the initial shock wore off in the moment, they are both pretty ready to continue business as usual.  All of them are.  The whole team is so blase about Nora's death and Thawne's escape.  Even Joe only offered an almost indifferent "I'm sorry".  Like offering condolences about someone he didn't know.   

I guess I'm willing to give Iris a small benefit of the doubt but Barry seems pretty unaffected.  This clinging to a belief that they'd see Nora again, based on NOTHING, seems like them giving themselves an easy out.  Poor Nora.  Wanting to know her dad got her killed.  Thanks Barry.  

Wow, sounds like you really hate them.

They were pretty devastated to me, but mileage varies as they say. (Plus, there's only so much ugly crying allowed!)

Edited May 16, 2019 by Trini

[Trini]

10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I suspect that they might have gotten annoyed at how powerful Cisco was, and they needed excuses to nerf him so he didnt upstage everyone else, or take care of everything super quickly, so they did this. I mean, they could have easily handled that without getting rid of his powers for no reason, but this is what we got. 

I mean, they didn't need to make him so powerful if they didn't want to?

Crisis on Infinite Earths will involve multiple earths, so there's a slim chance we'll get to see another Cisco who still has powers. But I'm not going to hold my breathe for that, since they've shown they only care so much about Cisco and his powers.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I have a feeling Cisco will get his powers back next season.

[rmontro]

On 5/14/2019 at 9:31 PM, tennisgurl said:

I HATE that Cisco gave up his powers, hate hate hate. He could just stop being Vibe, why does he actually have to give up his powers?

Yeah, that part didn't ring true for me.  If he doesn't want to be Vibe, just stop using your powers.  They might come in handy at some point.  Who would really give up such abilities if they had them?  Doesn't ring true.

I like Thawne, but I still think the way he whispers all his lines to be pretty silly.

I think I'll miss Nora and Sherloque.

[Trini]

18 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I have been complaining about Team Flash having too many metas for the whole season so I am a hypocrite complaining about Cisco giving up his powers, but I am doing so anyway. Cisco does have one of the most useful powers. The breaching devices don't make up for losing his ability to breach in moments when they are in danger or using his powers as a weapon to stop villains. However, I understand why DC would agree to have Cisco be the one to give up his powers. Elongated Man and Killer Frost to a lesser degree are more prominent comic characters compared to Vibe. I would have had Cecile lose her powers permanently as well though. I am concerned that Cisco no longer having powers might be a set up for the character to be killed during the crisis next season.

I don't think it was a corporate choice like that; based on who is more known in the comics. I think the writers room just ran out of excuses not to use his very convenient powers.
 

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I have a feeling Cisco will get his powers back next season.

I would love that (fix it, Wallace!) but this particular writing team has shortchanged Cisco for two seasons now, so I don't want to get my hopes up.

[Jediknight]

On 5/15/2019 at 2:44 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Finally, it wouldn't be a season five episode if I didn't mention at least once that I continue to be amazed that Ralph is one of the best things about this series now.  Never would have predicted that.

Just needed the writing to catch up with the actor they got.  For all the problems that Ralph has had, like the constant Ralph just needs confidence stories, Hartley Sawyer was never a problem.  He's always done well with the material they gave him

[BkWurm1]

17 hours ago, Trini said:

Wow, sounds like you really hate them.

They were pretty devastated to me, but mileage varies as they say. (Plus, there's only so much ugly crying allowed!)

I have a love hate relationship with Barry (he's so smug and self righteous and myopic at times even while getting upset for people for making similar choices or mistakes but at the same time I'm also sure the writers often don't intend it that way so I always struggle with what I see and what is supposed to be with him) but I'm used to loving Iris and hate that she has to live with this horrible outcome.  And even the notion of having a kid that ends up looking like Nora doesn't make her Nora so again, their daughter is DEAD and by the time they got back to Star Labs, only Iris even seems affected still and even that is super low key.  

Mostly I'm just disappointed that the show kind of punked out in showing how big a blow this should have been.  It rushed to get Iris and Barry to the state of acceptance far too quickly.  There just didn't seem to be the proper weight on the team shown over Nora's death.  And Barry was able to just immediately lock his feelings on the subject away and go be chatty with the captain.  It was just off.  Everyone but perhaps Iris came too close to shrugging their shoulders and moving on while counting it as a win.    

Maybe it's because I watched this after the Arrow finale and can't help compare the level of emotions displayed.  That's probably not fair but it's hard not to do.   

[adora721]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

And Barry was able to just immediately lock his feelings on the subject away and go be chatty with the captain.

Barry never fully embraced Nora as his daughter or his father role no matter what dialogue comes out his mouth. Compare how he reacted to Henry and his mother's deaths. And we know he's affected by those losses even now: Flashpoint and abandoning Nora to Thawne's continued influence.  Nora was a disappointment to him mostly because of her history with Thawne. I don't think he really had time to fully forgive her for that, so his loss isn't as keen as Iris'. Iris embraced Nora fully and often to her own detriment, so she feels the loss more deeply.

[SimoneS]

I thought both Barry and Iris were devastated about losing Nora, but from their perspective, she isn't gone forever. They believe that she will come back into their lives when she is born. They don't know that the timeline has changed and that this version of Nora is gone forever. In their sadness, they are comforted that Nora chose her own fate rather than becoming "negative" like Thawne. The show is selling this Nora story as uplifting so in the final scene, Iris and Barry hold and comfort each other while unbeknownst to them, they watch Nora's final goodbye.  

This Nora story was a fail in so many ways that I just rolled my eyes when Barry was going on about Nora and their family being his legacy. I really hope that Barry and Iris rebound as a loving couple next season both prior to and after the Crisis.

[sarthaz]

On 5/15/2019 at 8:39 PM, adora721 said:

There's nothing to be proud of that an almost 30 year old woman threw tantrums for 21 episodes

Truth. This whole aspect of the season rang so false to me. They never decided if she was an adult or a 13-year-old. Half a dozen episodes were basically "Nora runs off and does something obviously stupid". Maybe you get away with that once or twice, but it drove most of the season.

[phoenics]

The last 15-20 mins of the episode were amazing.  I didn't know this show could still make me emotional, but I was in a shambles after Nora got erased.  That was emotional AF.

Hated Cisco giving up his powers (and hate it even more if Cisco's not gonna be on the show WTF!), but I suspect that whatever is going on with the Crisis is the reason why.  Cisco would probably be able to fix whatever is going on so they needed his powers erased.

So much for KF being the key to stopping Cicada.  She eats floor every time they face off.

LOVED that Captain Singh knew that Barry was The Flash all along.  I hope he'll still pop up from time to time.  I love PS.

Candice Patton and Grant Gustin are amazing in their roles.  They made me emotional.

[BkWurm1]

On 5/17/2019 at 6:50 AM, SimoneS said:

I thought both Barry and Iris were devastated about losing Nora, but from their perspective, she isn't gone forever. They believe that she will come back into their lives when she is born. They don't know that the timeline has changed and that this version of Nora is gone forever. In their sadness, they are comforted that Nora chose her own fate rather than becoming "negative" like Thawne. The show is selling this Nora story as uplifting so in the final scene, Iris and Barry hold and comfort each other while unbeknownst to them, they watch Nora's final goodbye.  

This Nora story was a fail in so many ways that I just rolled my eyes when Barry was going on about Nora and their family being his legacy. I really hope that Barry and Iris rebound as a loving couple next season both prior to and after the Crisis.

But they DO know it.  They don't know about the upped timeline with crisis and they want to believe someday they'll see her again but it's not based on anything but hope.  Thawne explained what was happening to Nora because the timeline had changed.  That's why he told them how they could save her, that the negative speedforce was the only place she could go where the timeline changes wouldn't catch up to her.  When she stopped running in the NS, Nora was choosing to "die" herself than risk being corrupted but yeah, Barry and Iris were made perfectly aware of what was happening.  They knew she was gone, gone after this and the best they could probably hope for was a time remnant out there or something. 

Barry's a scientist, he has to know the odds of ever producing the same mix of DNA to make a copy later (have another kid that has her exact DNA make up) are astronomical.  Of course being this show, they might get that anyway but they can't believe in this moment that she's coming back to them.  This is them reacting to her as good as dying.  

[Trini]

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Barry's a scientist, he has to know the odds of ever producing the same mix of DNA to make a copy later (have another kid that has her exact DNA make up) are astronomical.  Of course being this show, they might get that anyway but they can't believe in this moment that she's coming back to them. 

Hope isn't a bad thing. Plus that optimism is part of the show's DNA. I think they can believe that they will see her again.

[Trini]

It's interesting that this is the first season that didn't end on a big cliffhanger*, or with a general idea of how the next season (or at least the premiere) will unfold.

*(Not counting the CC Citzen date changing since we've known that for a while.)

Season 1 finale: Barry ran towards a black hole; Season 2: Flashpoint, so we knew we would see a new timeline; Season 3: Barry entered and Speed Force, so we knew we would deal with his absence; Season 4: Nora arrives.

There will have to be a storyline leading up to The Crisis, but otherwise things seem fairly open for Season 6.

[BkWurm1]

I expect that the escalated timeline is what drives the episodes leading up to COIE so in that sense we did still end knowing the direction of next season. It's just we knew way before the Central City crew.  If the show runners hadn't announced LAST year that COIE was coming in 2019, the ending on The Flash would have been a HUGE deal.  And in the future any viewers going into the show cold would find this season's ending tease as big as at least Nora finally officially showing up in season 4 (also something the audience knew about before Barry and Co.