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SilverStormm

S08.E05: The Bells

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1 minute ago, tv-talk said:

So much of the talk around the show was tied to feminism and strong female characters that Dany behaving like...basically every GoT character aside from Jon was going to bother lots of people who expected the more Hollywood move of benevolent Dany saving KL from evil Cersei. I think big point of the show is that generally the people who want power will do anything for it and without much concern for the common person.

Dany said it herself, she was not loved and would NEVER be loved there the way Jon would have been. She killed all those people because they were a threat to her rule, she decided for herself that 1mill commoners who didnt want her there was never going to work, so she annihilated them to the point that no one will ever question her again out of FEAR. She said it herself and it isnt "madness" it's cold and calculating (ok dragonfire hot and calculating"

But that would be based upon a false premise.  In general the commoners would obey whoever's butt was polishing the Iron Throne.  Once she proved herself as a fair and just Queen they would have grown to love her.   They were no threat to her.

A better argument might be that it was a message to Jon, Tyrion, Grey Worm and Davos, and any other people close to her that, if they ever betrayed her, she would take it out on the commoners, though I'm not sure I buy that either.   Those men would give their own lives to protect the innocent, but would be reluctant to risk the lives of the innocent to overthrow a Queen they no longer supported.  

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Jamie is Tyrion's plot armor. Everyone has a plot armor, let Tyrion have this small one 😄

Short jokes, really?  Well, at least you didn't explain it, like Euron. :)

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2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I think one of the reasons I liked the episode is because I never, ever saw Dany as a hero at all.  To me she was too much "white savior" trope for my taste.  I hated that scene when the slaves were carrying her around, like she was some kind of "white goddess."  UGH, I think I started hating her then.

I always preferred the Starks, to me the show that began with them, should end with them.  I have always liked Sansa and more now, because despite, or maybe because of the hell she went through, she knows what is important to her, remember when she kept asking Dany, "what about the north?"  Dany didn't say a word to her, nothing, no, "of course you can rule the north Sansa, it's yours."  But not a thing.  That bugged me.  

So Dany burning everything in sight didn't surprise me one bit.  So many actual rulers get that taste of power and say, "fuck all of you."  And let's not forget last season when she burned Sam's father and brother because they refused to "bend the knee."  

I never got to the point of hating Daenerys and I think it's because I was so indifferent to her but besides that, I think I just met my twin LOL

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To me she was too much "white savior" trope for my taste.  I hated that scene when the slaves were carrying her around, like she was some kind of "white goddess." 

Yep

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I always preferred the Starks

Yep

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I have always liked Sansa and more now, because despite, or maybe because of the hell she went through

Yep Yep

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she kept asking Dany, "what about the north?"

I said in another episode thread that since Robb was crowned KITN I have wanted the North's independence.

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1 minute ago, tv-talk said:

So much of the talk around the show was tied to feminism and strong female characters that Dany behaving like...basically every GoT character aside from Jon was going to bother lots of people who expected the more Hollywood move of benevolent Dany saving KL from evil Cersei. I think big point of the show is that generally the people who want power will do anything for it and without much concern for the common person.

Dany said it herself, she was not loved and would NEVER be loved there the way Jon would have been. She killed all those people because they were a threat to her rule, she decided for herself that 1mill commoners who didnt want her there was never going to work, so she annihilated them to the point that no one will ever question her again out of FEAR. She said it herself and it isnt "madness" it's cold and calculating (ok dragonfire hot and 

See, I am a very independent woman myself but I totally agree: it isn't about feminism it is about how power corrupts and how even people with the best intentions initially can fall to their worst side. We are all primarily selfish, and no one is pure good or pure Evil. The fact that so many people were divided between Sansa/Dany and this episode shows that we all have things that make us react differently, opinions and POV that are just not the same. And for this episode i Feel this is the same case: some will say Dany would never do such a thing, some will say they saw it coming. In the end, I really find this episode fascinating on that aspect, as rushed as it was

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6 minutes ago, RealReality said:

But being roasted alive as you scream in agony sounds far less dignified then a beheading, and I think the dignity of a beheading is the reason it was used for royal executions for years.

They didn't have dragons.  Burning someone alive is a pain in the ass without dragons. 

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Something else the show hasn't established is that everyone loves Jon.

Some Northerners and Wildlings may love Jon, but that doesn't mean the rest of the Seven Kingdoms would support him.

Despite his alleged parentage -- and more than a few would be skeptical of if it given the nature of  that evidence and who provided it -- he'd still be seen as a Northerner.  I don't think most Southerns want a Northerner as King, particularly one who hangs out with Wildlings (it's kind of too bad that Randyll Tarly is dead, because I'd like to see him struggle with choosing between Dany the foreigner and Jon the Wildling Lover Who Abandoned the Night's Watch). I'm sure Dorne won't cotton to the living embodiment of Rhaegar Targaryen's disrespect for Princess Elia Martell of Dorne.

It's another example of the writers telling, not showing

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Sorry, I copied the wrong post.

 My friend who was on last night said

I did 24 days on there - one as an emergency Unsullied, the rest on Kings Landing. Played skewered at one point and given one of the crowd scenes, barbecued. Though I’m also running past Arya coming out of the alleyway so I’m claiming I survived.

 ETA, apparently Liam Cunningham is the nicest guy ever

Edited by JennyMominFL
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40 minutes ago, kieyra said:

But if the audience wants that, it's purely a failure of writing.

The audience would want Robb and Talisa with three kids in a San Francisco sitcom.

I don't think it's a failure of writing to have the audience root for redemption in every character and not get it. That's the show. "Y'know that schmaltzy, unrealistic crap you've been conditioned to expect. Yeah, we're not going to do that."

I guess it's a failure of writing if most of the people hate it, but wanting it means nothing. I want someone to create a world and tell a story, preferably in a way that stirs some emotional response and challenges me. I don't know what I want until it's been given to me.

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5 minutes ago, Drogo said:

They didn't have dragons.  Burning someone alive is a pain in the ass without dragons. 

Nah, if heretics were involved it was easy enough to toss together some wood. 

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16 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Dany said it herself, she was not loved and would NEVER be loved there the way Jon would have been. She killed all those people because they were a threat to her rule, she decided for herself that 1mill commoners who didnt want her there was never going to work, so she annihilated them to the point that no one will ever question her again out of FEAR. She said it herself and it isnt "madness" it's cold and calculating (ok dragonfire hot and calculating"

Perhaps, but it doesn't really make sense to kill all those people if she wants the "future generation" to be free of tyrants and wars... 'cause the way she was dracarysing, there'll be no future generation. 

15 minutes ago, RealReality said:

You could argue that the moon is made of green cheese.  But being roasted alive as you scream in agony sounds far less dignified then a beheading, and I think the dignity of a beheading is the reason it was used for royal executions for years.

That, and they didn't have dragons.

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8 minutes ago, Scaeva said:

Grey Worm is not higher up in the organizational hierarchy than Tyrion. Hands of the Queen/King are second *only* to the monarch in terms of the power they wield. 

Grey Worm was merely the commander of some of the military forces, and not even all of them, as a good portion of that army is there because of Jon. Grey Worm is high up in the hierarchy for sure, but he's below Tyrion. Hands are always the senior members of the small councils.

I don't know that we'll get very far arguing the fineries of Westerosi / Essosi organizational charting and powers of delegation (do they even have a formal small council?), but "Merely" seems a bit understated to me. She counted on him exclusively when Selmy was gone to control Mereen, that's not just some random captain, he almost never leaves her side. He is in the throne room of the great pyramid for almost every important interaction we witness there. Nonetheless, this still doesn't solve the problem. First, when he asks who ordered them, none of them even come up with an answer. THat's lazy writing. Make Tyrion try to talk his way past the guards. Second, there's simply no chance their orders wouldn't have included some reference to Tyrion: "If he comes over here, let him talk to Jaime, but do NOT all of you abandon your posts, and one of you, ONE OF YOU, come and get me immediately." Finally, Jaime gets free in order to do what, exactly? Fight his long time nemesis (?????) Captian Bumfinger? THen get crushed by stones? WHat's the point, besides the only other obvious conclusion: Tyrion should be dead before the series ends next week? 

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6 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

The audience would want Robb and Talisa with three kids in a San Francisco sitcom.

I don't think it's a failure of writing to have the audience root for redemption in every character and not get it. That's the show. "Y'know that schmaltzy, unrealistic crap you've been conditioned to expect. Yeah, we're not going to do that."

I guess it's a failure of writing if most of the people hate it, but wanting it means nothing. I want someone to create a world and tell a story, preferably in a way that stirs some emotional response and challenges me. I don't know what I want until it's been given to me.

If the series were written by audience committee no doubt every villain would get what they deserve and every character we've been rooting for several seasons would get to live happily ever after in a utopia governed by an always just monarch. It would also be terrible TV.

There is a reason why network TV is a steaming pile of garbage. There the execs are more beholden to focus groups and giving the audience what it supposedly wants.

Edited by Scaeva
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I'm not completely convinced that the Mountain would have remembered any grudge against his brother. However, I've never fully bought how he was "loyal" to the queen as a zombie. Like Frankenstein's monster how could you guarantee he would do anything? Qyburn as his "father" maybe???? But I think even when he was alive Mountain didn't even think much of his brother, as in, I don't think he hated him, I think he was just a play toy, he was cruel and everyone to him was weak, Hound did nothing in particular to incur his wrath and wasn't seen as much of an obstacle. Their parents wouldn't have been an obstacle either. I know it was a mission for the Hound, obviously haunted and traumatized by fire, actual hatred behind that. While I loved Clegane-bowl I just don't think the Mountain would have put aside Cersei to finish this "feud" when in his life it wasn't a feud, the Hound was a mosquito to him. But Bravo to the Hound because I truly chalked him up to not being able to kill his brother, even though they both perished.

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2 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Nah, if heretics were involved it was easy enough to toss together some wood. 

It's kind of my point: they weren't burned at the stake. They were basically exploded. Their deaths were instant. Varys, for example, didn't scream or even writhe in anguish. He was basically instantly disintegrated. 

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27 minutes ago, RealReality said:

You could argue that the moon is made of green cheese.  But being roasted alive as you scream in agony sounds far less dignified then a beheading, and I think the dignity of a beheading is the reason it was used for royal executions for years.

The only thing that got the tarlys killed was that they followed another leader that wasn't Dany.  That doesn't make them bad guys anymore than anyone who simply chose another leader is a bad guy 

"Death by fire is the purest death." - Melissandre  

8 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

It's kind of my point: they weren't burned at the stake. They were basically exploded. Their deaths were instant. Varys, for example, didn't scream or even writhe in anguish. He was basically instantly disintegrated. 

Right.  Death by Dragonfire, while not as clean as beheading, is not nearly as drawn out and painful as being burnt at the stake.  

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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3 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I guess it's a failure of writing if most of the people hate it, but wanting it means nothing. I want someone to create a world and tell a story, preferably in a way that stirs some emotional response and challenges me. I don't know what I want until it's been given to me.

Respectfully disagree. Good writing sets up arcs with satisfying conclusions that make sense for the characters, even if you're not a person who is consciously aware of how 'story' works.

Subverting tropes is great if you actually put in the legwork to get your characters there. If you put (contorted, nonsensical) plot before character, just to seem edgy and create "OMG!" moments, you're basically just Shonda Rhimes with dragons. 

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1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

"Death by fire is the purest death." - Melissandre  

Right.  Death by Dragonfire, while not as clean and beheading, is not nearly as drawn out and painful as being burnt at the stake.  

Just ask Mirri Maz Durr! And it's way cleaner than beheading. Cleanup is with a broom or a stiff breeze. Beheading has to have several buckets and mops, you toss the old bones into a box or a river, then you have the whole tarring and preserving the heads for the pikes. 

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12 hours ago, RealReality said:

I think this makes sense. 

Though I think someone that doesn't want the power may be a decent ruler.

There is no evidence of that in this story or in ANY story in the history of humankind.

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12 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

The audience would want Robb and Talisa with three kids in a San Francisco sitcom.

I don't think it's a failure of writing to have the audience root for redemption in every character and not get it. That's the show. "Y'know that schmaltzy, unrealistic crap you've been conditioned to expect. Yeah, we're not going to do that."

I guess it's a failure of writing if most of the people hate it, but wanting it means nothing. I want someone to create a world and tell a story, preferably in a way that stirs some emotional response and challenges me. I don't know what I want until it's been given to me.

But, I think, while most people were heartbroken by the Red Wedding, they loved the writing, because, while it was an unexpected and shocking twist, it made perfect sense.  

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I understand people not liking this episode, and season, but I think the writers are getting too much blame. To me George RR basically told them how he planned to end it and peaced out to focus on the prequels (not the books). So they’ve essentialled had to work without his guidance. While D&D do deserve blame....so does Martin. He shouldn’t get off scot free. 

And no one should be surprised by Danys decent....it’s been foreshadowed since season one. 

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12 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

The audience would want Robb and Talisa with three kids in a San Francisco sitcom. 

I don't think it's a failure of writing to have the audience root for redemption in every character and not get it. That's the show. "Y'know that schmaltzy, unrealistic crap you've been conditioned to expect. Yeah, we're not going to do that." 

I guess it's a failure of writing if most of the people hate it, but wanting it means nothing. I want someone to create a world and tell a story, preferably in a way that stirs some emotional response and challenges me. I don't know what I want until it's been given to me.

I find most people want a well written story that makes sense, even if it means something bad happens to a fan favorite, whether that be a character people genuinely like, love to hate or just love to see operate.

What happened to Ned, Robb, Talisa, Joffrey, and Tywin made sense

PMS Dany not so much.

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Well, now that I've let this episode marinate for a good twelve hours, I'll comment on it...

I can't say I liked everything about the way this episode was executed, but I don't know what people were expecting Dany's end game to be like.  She was never going to rule peacefully over Westeros, she has always been entitled and ruthless, and she has dragons.  You can't be loved when you have giant, winged, nuclear weapons flying over your subjects' heads, that's keeping your people in line with fear, in its purest form.  I knew at some point that those dragons were going to wreak havoc.  She used them when she lost everything else and (in her mind) ran out of options.  Not surprising, and Emilia Clarke's acting was great.  Her conversation with Jon, when she says "Let it be fear" is going down as one of the most chilling moments of the series.  There is nothing going on in Dany's eyes but pure resignation and hate.  I loved it.

I didn't see Jaime and Cersei's deaths as romantic, at all.  Sure, they got to die in each others' arms, but at what price?  Their children were dead, and they pushed everyone else away, or killed them.  Not exactly a happy ending.  I also loved Cersei going out like a coward, whimpering about how she didn't want to die.  This is the same woman who talked a big game about how she should have been a soldier instead of a lady, but she couldn't handle it when the shit hit the fan.  Typical.  LH's acting was amazing, though.  She really brought Cersei to life, and I don't think anyone else could have sold the role the way she did.  Good job, LH.

Jaime going back to Cersei is...whatever.  I thought it was totally in character, because Jaime has always been addicted to Cersei's love, and they never had a healthy relationship.  I also saw it as Jaime punishing himself for all his sins, which is exactly what he told Brienne, last episode.  I wasn't surprised by it, but I will miss looking at NCW, because he is pretty.  I am shallow.

I was never invested in Cleganebowl, but I did like the Hound telling Arya that living off vengence is not the answer.  Hopefully, Arya will regain her humanity and make a life for herself instead of moving through Westeros, killing people.  I have never thought that was badass or cool, it was sad.  Arya was once a spirited little girl who had a future ahead of her, and she grew up to be a soulless killing machine.  I'm glad the Hound told her that living the way he did was no life, at all.  She needed to hear it.

All in all, it was an okay episode.  I'll join the kids' table with my unpopular opinion.

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12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Some "random?"  That was the Hound, probably in my top five characters.  He knows what living only for revenge is, he loved Arya, and he didn't want that for her.  She respects very few people, but she respects him, and knows he knows what he's talking about.

Aside from that, her "list" has been completed now, not all by her, but it's done.

Could she rise up for one last one, maybe Dany?  Maybe, but to me she looked like the old Arya, a kid, kind, scared, as if she found her true self again.

I'm hoping that means she looks for more in life now than just revenge.

I knew when she killed the NK she would not be the one to kill Cersei.  I liked how this ended for Arya, being free of vengeance and I agree the Hound is one of the few she would listen to and respect.

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22 minutes ago, Drogo said:

They didn't have dragons.  Burning someone alive is a pain in the ass without dragons. 

And bad for the environment.  All those wasted trees.  

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1 minute ago, Pinkpam said:

And no one should be surprised by Danys decent....it’s been foreshadowed since season one. 

So effectively that the showrunners had "previously on" feature a patched together voice over of anything and anyone over the course of eight seasons that might have been remotely related to this idea? They somehow had the restraint to not feature the Mad King from Bran's visions screaming burn them all. Talk about "tell not show." 

Yeah, I agree, it was foreshadowed, that doesn't mean it was done so effectively. 

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Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

And bad for the environment.  All those wasted trees.  

Time consuming, splinter risk very high, lots of smoke... Dragonfire is so targeted and neat. 

Tyrion was 26 inches away and fine.  I think I even saw him light a joint off Varys' Riddler sleeves.

giphy.gif

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2 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

So effectively that the showrunners had "previously on" feature a patched together voice over of anything and anyone over the course of eight seasons that might have been remotely related to this idea? They somehow had the restraint to not feature the Mad King from Bran's visions screaming burn them all. Talk about "tell not show." 

Yeah, I agree, it was foreshadowed, that doesn't mean it was done so effectively. 

I'm starting to be reminded of Apple telling us we're just holding the phone wrong. 🙂

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2 minutes ago, Fiver said:

I can't say I liked everything about the way this episode was executed, but I don't know what people were expecting Dany's end game to be like.  She was never going to rule peacefully over Westeros, she has always been entitled and ruthless, and she has dragons.  You can't be loved when you have giant, winged, nuclear weapons flying over your subjects' heads, that's keeping your people in line with fear, in its purest form.  Inpopular opinion.

This is patently not true though: the Targaryens ruled for 300 years with equal measures of peace and war, through summers and winters alike. There were certainly bad rulers, Maegor, Aegon V, several others, but many good rulers in there too. They all had dragons. Some were loved, some were hated, but they didn't all rule strictly by fear. 

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14 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Also Dany who invaded a foreign country where she wasn't wanted because of some Manifest Destiny BS and who constantly needed to be talked down from committing atrocities. Who burned a slave alive for killing her slaver husband and called Drogo a hero as late as season seven. Who always picked the most cruel and inhumane executions when presented with alternatives. Who abandoned Meereen and let Daario "Fuck Meereen and its people" Naharis in charge of it. Whose dragon killed a child and then she later complained that the Targaryens were wrong to not let their dragons roam around King's Landing. Who brags about being the Breaker of Chains but refuses to grant the North its independence because she knows what people want better than they do. 

I get it, but then why did Dany help the north at all, when she had three healthy dragons at the time? She did not have to help save anyone. She had the man power AND the dragons to sack King's Landing before Cersi had time to see what was coming. But she had a heart and conscience and she trusted in Jon to do the right thing. If she was truthfully THAT throne hungry, she could've had it faster and much easier. She chose the be helpful in fighting the dead and put the Northerner's needs above hers. People who she never met! 

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7 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I find most people want a well written story that makes sense, even if it means something bad happens to a fan favorite, whether that be a character people genuinely like, love to hate or just love to see operate.

What happened to Ned, Robb, Talisa, Joffrey, and Tywin made sense

PMS Dany not so much.

Exactly!  We understood perfectly why Joffrey would kill Ned, and why Walder Frey would kill Robb and Talisa,  why Tyrion would kill Tywin and why pretty much everyone in the Seven Kingdoms would want Joffrey dead.   

But, I don't think we were shown a believable motivation for Dany hunting down innocent women and children to roast them.    If the writers had shown how this made sense, I wouldn't have like the outcome, but I would have respected the writing.   

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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3 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Respectfully disagree. Good writing sets up arcs with satisfying conclusions that make sense for the characters, even if you're not a person who is consciously aware of how 'story' works.

Subverting tropes is great if you actually put in the legwork to get your characters there. If you put (contorted, nonsensical) plot before character, just to seem edgy and create "OMG!" moments, you're basically just Shonda Rhimes with dragons. 

LOL on the Shonda Rhimes comment. I don't think we disagree in principle here. I just don't think want enters into it until it's happened. Only then can I look back and see how it made me feel. Wanting something to happen doesn't mean it was the best thing for the story or characters. But yes, you still have to setup good arcs with meaningful conclusions.

In this case, I just think people are wanting something to happen that wasn't realistic in the context of the show. GOT has always shown us that Dany's right on the edge of total ruthlessness, and for me, seeing the events play out in a way that finally tips the scales in that direction *is* a satisfying result that makes sense. Same with Jaime. Yeah, he's done some cool things, because he's not two-dimensional, but he's still a guy who makes babies with his sister and throws kids out of windows. I dunno -- I'm just OK with it all. I can see why others aren't, but I don't buy into the idea that everyone's acting out of character. They seem to be behaving exactly how we were told they would behave.

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4 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

PMS Dany not so much.

Cersei, this is what happens when you behead the person who brings Dany her cranberry juice every month. 😛

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  • Killed out of revenge / spite
  • No one loves her
  • The faith placed in others, and thus herself, is shattered by betrayal

Brienne is going full beserker next episode

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Truth be told I think the only bad thing Weiss and Benioff did regarding Dany was make most of the audience love Dany and root for her so much. GRRM laid the seeds and is writing towards it in the books but the way the show framed Dany's arc was as a hero's journey, not a slow descent into darkness like Breaking Bad.

Edited by VCRTracking
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I'm love her, but Danny was written as a white savior.  I'm not sure how the Starks are any better, though. The show made a big to do over the Northerners giving Greyworm and Missandei the stink eye and had Greyworm saying there was no place for them in Westeros. And, it turns out the Northerners were right not to trust them! The show developed two characters of color and their purpose turned out to be getting fridged and slaughtering innocents--in service to Danny's plot line nonetheless. As a black woman this feels just as shitty to me as a white savior plot, in some ways worse, because the racial message is now "brown people are savages who can't help but give in to their savage ways."

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4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Exactly!  We understood perfectly why Joffrey would kill Ned, and why Walder Frey would kill Robb and Talisa,  why Tyrion would kill Tywin and why pretty much everyone in the Seven Kingdoms would want Joffrey dead.   

This is such an apt comparison. The second they arrested Ned in S1, before having read the books, the only way the story COULD go was to have him killed, I knew it as a viewer and I knew I hated it, but there was no realistic way for him to escape that situation. No, I did not want Ned to die, but there wasn't a part of me that thought "They'll find a way out of this!" because the story had painted Ned right into that corner. His refusal to play ball with Cersei, his idiotic honor keeping him from telling everyone her secret immediately, keeping him from telling Robert right away, and then Robert dying before Ned could effectively muster a counter measure, there wasn't anywhere else for Ned to go. That's not what happened with Dany. 

3 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

Oh and I thought it was hilarious when Cersei high tailed it past the hound right before Clegane bowl

Ha, me too, I imagined her whispering, "Scuse me, I'm just going to...can I get past just for...thank you."

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1 hour ago, Wendy said:

Jon shouldn't have to keep a lid on anything. He has the right to tell whoever he wants, it shouldn't be a secret anymore. Daenerys asking him to keep it a secret just so she could have her claim uncontested is one of the most selfish things I have seen. Tell everybody and have Jon publicly announce his abdication or make him your partner (either by marriage or an alliance) 

Besides it just being the worst course of action possible, I also hated this because Jon has spent his whole life being called bastard and being treated like he's less than on account of his being a bastard. Finally he gets some real information about his father -- he's not a bastard at all and he's told to STFU about it. If you love someone, you don't ask that of them. Well, if you love power more, you do.

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Sorry, but I disagree with the article, and with the idea that this was some kind of sudden character assassination.  The seeds for this were planted all the way back in Season 2, imo.

I didn't care about royal bloodlines.  I did, however, care about the many thousands of innocent people who Dany killed.

Back in Season 1, imo.

10 minutes ago, Fiver said:

I didn't see Jaime and Cersei's deaths as romantic, at all.  Sure, they got to die in each others' arms, but at what price?  Their children were dead, and they pushed everyone else away, or killed them.  Not exactly a happy ending.  I also loved Cersei going out like a coward, whimpering about how she didn't want to die.  This is the same woman who talked a big game about how she should have been a soldier instead of a lady, but she couldn't handle it when the shit hit the fan.  Typical.  LH's acting was amazing, though.  She really brought Cersei to life, and I don't think anyone else could have sold the role the way she did.  Good job, LH.

God, it was so not romantic to me. It was an incredibly pathetic, empty and sick end for two sickos who really needed to spend a good 20 years with a therapist.

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I'd have to watch the Arya/Sandor scenes again to be sure, but wasn't it a little obvious they were on a kamikaze mission before they arrived at the map room?

That said, as I posted before, I loved it when Ayra said thanks (and goodbye) to "Sandor".

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3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Exactly!  We understood perfectly why Joffrey would kill Ned, and why Walder Frey would kill Robb and Talisa,  why Tyrion would kill Tywin and why pretty much everyone in the Seven Kingdoms would want Joffrey dead.   

But, I don't think we were shown a believable motivation for Dany hunting down innocent women and children to roast them.    If the writers had shown how this made sense, I wouldn't have like the outcome, but I would have respected the writing.   

Certainly, I'm in the minority here, but it seems like the show has been building towards Dany's reversion to form for years, so I don't see it as that big a stretch. Losing Missandei, losing two dragons, losing Jon's love, losing Tyrion and Varys, gearing up for the battle she's prepared for her entire life and then being greeted with surrender. I buy her saying "fuck this shit, I'm burning it all down." Works for me. But I know I'm in the minority.

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38 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I never got to the point of hating Daenerys and I think it's because I was so indifferent to her but besides that, I think I just met my twin LOL

LOL, you're right.  I just never saw her as this big hero/liberator.  

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1 hour ago, SueB said:

Earlier reply to me was that there was no one left to make the new generation.  But that's not accurate.  PLENTY of people left in Westros who were not in KL.  The truth of her ruthlessness will travel but if she sets up a new world order someplace OTHER than King's Landing, it's a good idea.  Kings Landing's critical resource as a harbor port will have to be redirected somehow.  Becuase she needs to distance herself from that location big-time. Her 'campaign slogan' should be she cut off the rotted limb and now the kingdom can flourish.

That was me. You said that "instead they made it clear in her speech to Jon -- the people of Westros would NEVER love her so she'll burn it all down and the next generation will have a better life", to which a replied that "she killed the next generation".

And she did. King's Landing was Westeros biggest city and she killed, mutilated or traumatized for life the current generation and the next living there. The truth of her massacre of inocents will travel and people, like you said, will never love her or respect her - because respect born from fear is not respect at all. She will be seen a tyrant, no matter how many slaves she freed.

Her new world will colapse sooner or later. To relocate King's Landing would cost money no one there has. 

Tyrion said from the very beggining: she is a foreigner whose father wanted to burn King's Landing, killed the elder Stark, etc. The Targs were already universally hated in Westeros. She just proved them right.

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17 minutes ago, Pinkpam said:

I understand people not liking this episode, and season, but I think the writers are getting too much blame. To me George RR basically told them how he planned to end it and peaced out to focus on the prequels (not the books). So they’ve essentialled had to work without his guidance. While D&D do deserve blame....so does Martin. He shouldn’t get off scot free. 

And no one should be surprised by Danys decent....it’s been foreshadowed since season one. 

Oh I'm annoyed at GRRM. I'm annoyed because he's probably quite pleased there's a lot of critical feedback.

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3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'd have to watch the Arya/Sandor scenes again to be sure, but wasn't it a little obvious they were on a kamikaze mission before they arrived at the map room?

I'm not sure why Clegane waited until the map room to have that talk with Arya. That seems like it'd have been more useful before she was trapped in the castle that was clearly crumbling. 

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1 minute ago, Raachel2008 said:

That was me. You said that "instead they made it clear in her speech to Jon -- the people of Westros would NEVER love her so she'll burn it all down and the next generation will have a better life", to which a replied that "she killed the next generation".

And she did. King's Landing was Westeros biggest city and she killed, mutilated or traumatized for life the current generation and the next living there. The truth of her massacre of inocents will travel and people, like you said, will never love her or respect her - because respect born from fear is not respect at all. She will be seen a tyrant, no matter how many slaves she freed.

Her new world will colapse sooner or later. To relocate King's Landing would cost money no one there has. 

Tyrion said from the very beggining: she is a foreigner whose father wanted to burn King's Landing, killed the elder Stark, etc. The Targs were already universally hated in Westeros. She just proved them right.

Thanks for responding... I swear I did hunt the pages looking before but this thread moves so FAST.

Fair point on the population.  But she razed King's Landing.  Rebuild or Build in a new location -- I don't think there's much to salvage.  Again, the port location is problematic.  

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6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:
  • Killed out of revenge / spite
  • No one loves her
  • The faith placed in others, and thus herself, is shattered by betrayal

Brienne is going full beserker next episode

Upon hearing Jamie's death, Tormund drops everything to head south to comfort Brienne.. "F..k Wildlings, F..k Ghost.  Somebody needs a rebound"

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3 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Certainly, I'm in the minority here, but it seems like the show has been building towards Dany's reversion to form for years, so I don't see it as that big a stretch. Losing Missandei, losing two dragons, losing Jon's love, losing Tyrion and Varys, gearing up for the battle she's prepared for her entire life and then being greeted with surrender. I buy her saying "fuck this shit, I'm burning it all down." Works for me. But I know I'm in the minority.

I could get her burning Jon, Tyrion, Varys, Sansa etc.  I could also see her saying, "f it" I'm taking KL today, if innocent commoners die, they die."

But, I cannot see her hunting down tens of thousands of innocent women and children, after the battle had already been won, while nearly allowing Cersei, Qyburn, The Mountain and Jaime to escape.  

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17 minutes ago, Cammi said:

I get it, but then why did Dany help the north at all, when she had three healthy dragons at the time? She did not have to help save anyone. She had the man power AND the dragons to sack King's Landing before Cersi had time to see what was coming. But she had a heart and conscience and she trusted in Jon to do the right thing. If she was truthfully THAT throne hungry, she could've had it faster and much easier. She chose the be helpful in fighting the dead and put the Northerner's needs above hers. People who she never met! 

Dany said she did it because she loves Jon, not because she put the Northerners needs above hers.  She did it for him, didn't know the Northerners from a hole in the ground.

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7 minutes ago, SueB said:

Fair point on the population.  But she razed King's Landing.  Rebuild or Build in a new location -- I don't think there's much to salvage.  Again, the port location is problematic.  

Which is why what she did was stupid beyond measure. She doomed her ruling before it even started.

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2 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Dany said she did it because she loves Jon, not because she put the Northerners needs above hers.  She did it for him, didn't know the Northerners from a hole in the ground.

Now that you mention it, a missed opportunity in demonstrating her mental decline: all her advisers telling her "This plan is absolutely dog shit and the exercise itself makes zero fucking sense, your grace. Fly to King's Landing, now, with all three dragons, secure the surrender, rally your allies and THEN go help out in the North if you feel it's right, it will not only secure your legacy as a ruler who isn't some tyrant nutball, BUT it will also ingratiate you to the surly northerners, as their queen and caring mother. The NIght King can wait six months, I mean it isn't like he has a dragon to burn the wall down, right?" To which maybe-loony Danerys is like "BLAH! I WANT TO HELP THIS CUTE BOY THOUGH! NOWNOWNOW! (flings feces at advisers and leaves the room)"

Varys: "Maybe we should talk some about her grace's...mental stability." 

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Athena

Keep it polite. Do not get personal and do not get into repetitive arguments about the characters or what defines a fiction. Further posts will be hidden and posters will be warned.

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