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S08.E05: The Bells

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Remarkable how Euron's plot armor fell off the moment he stepped ashore

They should have just let Drogon toast Euron

Euron and Jaime's fight was filler, and dull.

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4 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Remarkable how Euron's plot armor fell off the moment he stepped ashore

They should have just let Drogon toast Euron

Euron and Jaime's fight was filler, and dull.

Last episode we saw Euron shooting Rheagal and Dany's ships accurately from good distance.  The real question is, why the hell did the best shooter in KL not sit in 1 of those scorpions when everyone KNEW Dany was attacking ??

Answer: D&D wanted to see KL burn to the ground 👍

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1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

On anothet note... She's really screwed Jon.. If he does wanna be king.. Not only is he a half targ ( as im sure that'll spread around like wildfire no pun intended)  but he vouched for this  murderer and was at the head of her army that went on to rape and pillage and kill soldiers who put down their weapons... 

...unless Jon takes action to correct his mistake.  Regardless of whether Daenerys is the rightful ruler or not - if everybody is scared shitless of her, a Jon-delivered execution would have him hailed as a savior.

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13 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

Yeah, Euron swam ashore right at the spot Jaime would be in? Ok, show.

In his pleather suit, no less.  Michael Phelps watch the fuck out.

You know how squishy it would sound every time he took a step...?

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1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

I've said it before.. But Dany started yo lose Varys the minute she did that to the Tarlys.. And it was the method after that scene he immediately started asking tyrion if she was alright and got worried.. Because he'd been thru this before.. One place the show failed in my humble opinion.. Is not really letting us viewers know just How bad Dany's father was and her bloodline in general that the minute they do anything that seems extreme ppl are scared this is it.. This is when the bad comes out... Kinda like an alcoholic from an alcoholic family... We already know they are predisposed.. They themselves have done some scary things and every time something even seems a little off ur wondering if they're drinking again

The show did tell us.

Jaime told us all when he confessed to Brienne.

Tyrion's story saving KL from Stannis told us more when he found out and used the Wild Fire.

We've heard quite a bit about Dany's daddy actually, I'm probably missing some stuff.

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41 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Euron and Jaime's fight was filler, and dull.

I'm wondering if it was filler, or if there'll be a greater narrative purpose.  I hope so. 

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10 minutes ago, Nashville said:

...unless Jon takes action to correct his mistake.  Regardless of whether Daenerys is the rightful ruler or not - if everybody is scared shitless of her, a Jon-delivered execution would have him hailed as a savior.

True.. But the skeptic.. Would say... He sat back and bided his time rode with her thru her destroying all the other enemies then swooped in.... I'm not saying it,  cuz I know that's not how the thinking of the characters went down... But to an outsider.. He's the bastard of a great and old ( maybe greatest and oldest)  family who left the. Nights watch under some weird circumstances... Somehow got named a King and then saddled up with a pyromaniac who's war with the Lannisters and that "Northern stuff" ( as I still don't know how much the southerners really know or believe about the AOTD.. Tho a dragon obliterating a city makes one think anything is possible)  wiped out quite a few families and has placed some new Lords along the way... Dorne.. The iron Islands... The stormlands... I guess the westerlands as tyrion is still alive and probably with him... The north obviously... So now that he's killed her he's quietly taken over and he's a hero because Dany was the bad guy... Again.. Not how I feel but a littlefinger-esqe scoundrel could make a similar case

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5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The show did tell us.

Jaime told us all when he confessed to Brienne.

Tyrion's story saving KL from Stannis told us more when he found out and used the Wild Fire.

We've heard quite a bit about Dany's daddy actually, I'm probably missing some stuff.

I think selmy may have mentioned some stuff.. Maybe maestor aemon did too... But even so still.. The amount of dread that Varys feels for Aerys' spawn... For it to make sense.. Unless like me you start to break it down in ur head and compare him to the caligula's or Nero's of the world was to really give us a bit more... because then the fear of a targaryen going bad.. Like Dany eventually did.. That fear.. And the ability to be so hopeful that she's different and so quick to say... Nope she's not different.. Makes more sense... IMHO

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23 minutes ago, Nashville said:

...unless Jon takes action to correct his mistake.  Regardless of whether Daenerys is the rightful ruler or not - if everybody is scared shitless of her, a Jon-delivered execution would have him hailed as a savior.

If Jon takes action, and it goes anything like Ned, Rob, the rest of the Stark guys taking action, prepare to burn or lose your head.  Also, I'm not sure what the big deal is about the made Targ genes Dany has since Jon's apparent claim to the throne is that he also has Targ genes.  {face palm}

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5 hours ago, Julyolo said:

Then Jon will go insane because it is his genetic fate as well.

Actually, it’s NOT his genetic fate. That was the point of Varys’ line about already knowing which way his coin had flipped.

Genetically speaking Jon isn’t inbred at all. He’s the result of outbreeding which pretty much resets your genetic clock because all the DNA that was damaged by inbreeding would be patched over by the healthy set from Lyanna.

That’s also likely why Jon has pretty much zero obvious Targaryen features and looks like a traditional Stark (see Arya and Benjen on the show); there was so little good DNA from the Targ side to work with.

So no, Jon’s not going to go mad like Dany.

The recurring theme for Jon is that he’s very good at war and a natural leader; but he takes no pleasure in those things. That reluctance to use power (but being able to if needed) is why he’ll actually make an excellent king.

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Qyburn: Ser Gregor, obey your Queen!

Gregor: GGRRHH... [closed captioned as: Not today dickhead] 

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1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

She made sure the Starks will think long and hard before pursuing their anti-Daenerys agenda because if KL can go down in 20 minutes, shitty-ass Winterfell should only take 10.

This is why I want Dany to go full on Aegon I. That would be quite the ending; but I’m sure she’ll be quickly disposed of in the most ridiculous way fathomable. 

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18 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

This is why I want Dany to go full on Aegon I. That would be quite the ending; but I’m sure she’ll be quickly disposed of in the most ridiculous way fathomable. 

Yeah, at this point, they have turned Dany into a genocidal maniac.  They should just have her fly Drogon from kingdom to kingdom burning every castle and farmhouse in Westeros.   

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14 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Actually, it’s NOT his genetic fate. That was the point of Varys’ line about already knowing which way his coin had flipped.

Genetically speaking Jon isn’t inbred at all. He’s the result of outbreeding which pretty much resets your genetic clock because all the DNA that was damaged by inbreeding would be patched over by the healthy set from Lyanna.

That’s also likely why Jon has pretty much zero obvious Targaryen features and looks like a traditional Stark (see Arya and Benjen on the show); there was so little good DNA from the Targ side to work with.

So no, Jon’s not going to go mad like Dany.

The recurring theme for Jon is that he’s very good at war and a natural leader; but he takes no pleasure in those things. That reluctance to use power (but being able to if needed) is why he’ll actually make an excellent king.

Interesting. Mental illness has  genetic concordances that can occur no matter who you look like. I also see mental illness as being a disease of the brain. "Good DNA"? Patched over DNA? Of course he wasn't inbred. His father was. And Jon is 50% of his father's DNA. Just because I look nothing like a distant relative that had neurofibromatosis,  did not prevent me from that genetic inheiritance. 

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2 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I totally disagree about Varys. There was nothing that Dany did from the moment Varys met up with her to the time that he ended up trying to poison her that would justify him betraying her like that. The only things that I can tell that he didn't like were, her burning the Tarly's.

Also, Varys didn't really care about the realm - sure he liked to tell himself that but someone who really cared about the realm wouldn't have been working behind the scenes to sow the kind of chaos that results in a war that will largely impact commoners. Varys is quite frankly, full of shit. And he wanted Jon because he saw that Jon would be easy to manipulate. 

Agreed. Could be another situation where the show failed at conveying what they wanted the character to be. We have lots of instances of Varys saying he is for the people. Less of him actually doing things for the common folk though.

Varys was set up early as a schemer trying to one up Baelish. He also had many opportunities to help the people outside of just politicking. The strings he pulled played parts in starting conflicts no less...where common people died! And it isn't great to use children to do you bidding and put them at risk. The most defenceless of common people.

Varys was a great character. But I always saw him as grey. Nowhere near good and certainly not benevolent.

And I think that is where the show has failed this season. The whiplash treatment of Dany and the attempt to juxtapose her against characters who are also morally questionable seems hypocritical.

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Is it too late to have all that torching business be just a moment's thought that goes through Dany's head, and next week she is still behind the men on her dragon as the bells toll? 

No? ....how about the whole winter is just really a snow globe? 

Edited by TVbitch
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6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yeah, at this point, they have turned Dany into a genocidal maniac.  They should just have her fly Drogon from kingdom to kingdom burning every castle and farmhouse in Westeros.   

Everything but the Kingsroad Inn..

Let Hot Pie inherit Westeros.

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43 minutes ago, Francie said:

I'm wondering if it was filler, or if there'll be a greater narrative purpose.  I hope so. 

He did. Euron represented what D&D think about all fan theories related to Jaime.

When he laid on the rocks and said I killed Jaime, he might as well show us his middle fingers

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38 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I think selmy may have mentioned some stuff.. Maybe maestor aemon did too... But even so still.. The amount of dread that Varys feels for Aerys' spawn... For it to make sense.. Unless like me you start to break it down in ur head and compare him to the caligula's or Nero's of the world was to really give us a bit more... because then the fear of a targaryen going bad.. Like Dany eventually did.. That fear.. And the ability to be so hopeful that she's different and so quick to say... Nope she's not different.. Makes more sense... IMHO

Barristan did tell Dany that Aerys laughed as he burned men alive. 

We learned in the third episode of the season just how bad Aerys was. Our beloved hero Ned goes into the throne room and talks with Jaime Lannister, the latter of whom told Ned that this was the room where Aerys burned Ned's father and brother alive while hundreds of men stood by and watched. Sansa also talked about it with her septa. 

We've seen Bran flashback to Aerys, very mad-looking, shouting "Burn them all!"

It's been spelled out about as much as it could be that the man known as the, checks my notes, Mad King was a horrible, horrible man who did horrible, horrible things. 

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6 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Everything but the Kingsroad Inn..

Let Hot Pie inherit Westeros.

I think Hot Pie's gravy is the only substance on Planetos that can stop dragonfire.   

House Hot Pie's sigil would be a meat pie and it's words: "Never Give Up On the Gravy".  

BTW, this reminds me that not only did D&D rob us of the real (non genocidal maniac) Daenerys Targaryen, they robbed of of Arya and The Hound Sandor stopping at the Inn at the Crossoads, on their way to KL.

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Hot Pie's gravy is the only substance on Planetos that can stop dragonfire.   

House Hot Pie's sigil would be a meat pie and it's words: "Never Give Up On the Gravy".  

BTW, this reminds me that not only did D&D rob us of the real (non genocidal maniac) Daenerys Targaryen, they robbed of of Arya and The Hound Sandor stopping at the Inn at the Crossoads, on their way to KL.

Is that where they ate all of the fucking chickens?

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4 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

Is that where they ate all of the fucking chickens?

No.  It was the place where Hot Pie took a job, and where Brienne and Pod ran into LF and Sansa.    It is also where Joffrey and Arya had the fight that ended up with Micah and Lady being killed.  Also, Cateyn Stark had Tyrion seized by her father's bannermen there.  

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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22 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yeah, at this point, they have turned Dany into a genocidal maniac.  They should just have her fly Drogon from kingdom to kingdom burning every castle and farmhouse in Westeros.   

She doesn't have to now.

Everyone will be too terrified to do anything except what she wants, bend the knee and sing her Hosannas.  She has her nuke, they don't. 

I'm sure that if this wasn't already sure to be resolved in 80 more minutes though?  A resistance would start up and probably start in the North.  Either way, someone has to take Dany out now, she's too dangerous, and no one wants dragons, except Dany.

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4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She doesn't have to now.

Everyone will be too terrified to do anything except what she wants, bend the knee and sing her Hosannas.  She has her nuke, they don't. 

I'm sure that if this wasn't already sure to be resolved in 80 more minutes though?  A resistance would start up and probably start in the North.  Either way, someone has to take Dany out now, she's too dangerous, and no one wants dragons, except Dany.

 But, her display of destroying the Iron Fleet, all the scorpions, the main gate of KL, the towers the scorpions were mounted on, the entire Golden Company, and huge numbers of Lannister soldiers would have already made that clear.

I don't think that proving that her dragon could kill helpless women and children was necessary at that point.   I think it would be assumed.  

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36 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Everything but the Kingsroad Inn..

Let Hot Pie inherit Westeros.

Lord of WinterHell Hot Pie

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3 hours ago, Drogo said:

Tyrion's now directly or indirectly caused the deaths of his mother, father, sister and brother. 

Well Tyrion did brag that he was the greatest Lannister killer of them all. 

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44 minutes ago, Francie said:

Barristan did tell Dany that Aerys laughed as he burned men alive. 

We learned in the third episode of the season just how bad Aerys was. Our beloved hero Ned goes into the throne room and talks with Jaime Lannister, the latter of whom told Ned that this was the room where Aerys burned Ned's father and brother alive while hundreds of men stood by and watched. Sansa also talked about it with her septa. 

We've seen Bran flashback to Aerys, very mad-looking, shouting "Burn them all!"

It's been spelled out about as much as it could be that the man known as the, checks my notes, Mad King was a horrible, horrible man who did horrible, horrible things. 

And it was easy for him to do horrible things because hundreds possibly thousands stood by and watched, and did nothing to stop him.

31 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She doesn't have to now.

Everyone will be too terrified to do anything except what she wants, bend the knee and sing her Hosannas.  She has her nuke, they don't. 

I'm sure that if this wasn't already sure to be resolved in 80 more minutes though?  A resistance would start up and probably start in the North.  Either way, someone has to take Dany out now, she's too dangerous, and no one wants dragons, except Dany.

I want Dany and her remaining dragon to win.

3 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Well Tyrion did brag that he was the greatest Lannister killer of them all. 

It's not like the Lannisters were nice people.  Tyrion will probably mourn Jamie, but I don't know why anyone would care that Tywinn or Cersei are dead.  Not that Jamie was a great guy, but he did love Tyrion and Tyrion loved him.

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44 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Genetically speaking Jon isn’t inbred at all. He’s the result of outbreeding which pretty much resets your genetic clock

Uhhh, not exactly; your chance of replicating unsavory genetic factors born of inbreeding is cut by about 50%, but it is not eliminated.

44 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

because all the DNA that was damaged by inbreeding would be patched over by the healthy set from Lyanna.

Uhhh, no; genes don’t work like that.  The combination of Stark and Targaryen genetic material means that for any given gene:

  1. There’s a 50/50 chance (which can be further modified one way or the other by dominant/recessive characteristics) whether the Stark allele or the Targaryen allele contribution would win out.
  2. Not ALL Targaryen alleles are “damaged” by inbreeding - just a certain amount, else ALL current Targaryen children would be babbling idiots.  So at least some of the 50% Targaryen contribution would be “clean”.
  3. Just through the geography involved, there’s also a degree of possibility some of the Stark genetic contributions might be damaged as well.
  4. The primary negative effect of inbreeding is the forced accumulation of undesirable recessive traits, which makes them less likely to exert dominant influence in the resulting allele pair combinations - although not necessarily entirely incapable of doing so.

...so while there’s certainly a diminished probability of undesirable Targaryen inbred factors manifesting in a Targaryen-Stark baby, the probability is by no means zero.

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29 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

I want Dany and her remaining dragon to win.

Good luck with that.

But seriously, WHY?

Why do you want a mass murderer on the throne?  Why do you want a ruler who demands mass worship of her, adoration, or she will react with FIRE AND BLOOD *her nuke, Drogon.*  Why do you want Westeros to be ruled by a hypocrite and a liar?  She SAID it was all to have the rightful ruler of Westeros on the throne.  No.  SHE wanted the throne.  The minute she found out she was not the rightful rule, she tried to hide that fact, to the point of ordering the real rightful ruler, Jon, someone she supposedly loved, to hide that truth from the people of Westeros, to lie?

Dany looks good on paper and in person.  The reality is a megalomaniac power and adoration junkie who will kill anyone to get her way.  She's more Jim Jones than "savior."

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1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

BTW, this reminds me that not only did D&D rob us of the real (non genocidal maniac) Daenerys Targaryen, they robbed of of Arya and The Hound Sandor stopping at the Inn at the Crossoads, on their way to KL.

I know logical progression means diddly squat for D&D, but Arya and the Hound had to stop at Hot Pie's to gorge on the pies on their way to KL.  That would have been the only reason both arrived at KL much LATER than Jaime even though they left a day or two before him.

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1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yeah, at this point, they have turned Dany into a genocidal maniac.  They should just have her fly Drogon from kingdom to kingdom burning every castle and farmhouse in Westeros.   

Well... THAT would be an ending.

1 hour ago, Couver said:

Agreed. Could be another situation where the show failed at conveying what they wanted the character to be. We have lots of instances of Varys saying he is for the people. Less of him actually doing things for the common folk though.

Varys was set up early as a schemer trying to one up Baelish. He also had many opportunities to help the people outside of just politicking. The strings he pulled played parts in starting conflicts no less...where common people died! And it isn't great to use children to do you bidding and put them at risk. The most defenceless of common people.

Varys was a great character. But I always saw him as grey. Nowhere near good and certainly not benevolent.

And I think that is where the show has failed this season. The whiplash treatment of Dany and the attempt to juxtapose her against characters who are also morally questionable seems hypocritical.

I may not remember details from past seasons, but I think we've generally seen varys break faith and act shady when dealing with other rulers. 

I think that's where his "grey" nature may have come from because he feels loyalty to no king or queen but for what he feels is best for the common people and acts accordingly.

I may not have been on the lookout for it in past seasons because I think the first time it came from varys was this season.

ETA: I don't think targ genes automatically mean madness.  And I think that's what varys was saying with his coin line.

Edited by RealReality
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1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

He did. Euron represented what D&D think about all fan theories related to Jaime.

When he laid on the rocks and said I killed Jaime, he might as well show us his middle fingers

Pretty much. I always saw Euron as someone who looked out for #1. He had no use for Cersei beyond her ability to make him her consort. I don't believe for one second that Euron would've wasted his time fighting Jaime when the city was being burnt to the ground. He would've grabbed that dingy and rowed the hell out of there. I totally felt that whole sequence was one big F.U. to the fans.

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2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yeah, at this point, they have turned Dany into a genocidal maniac.  They should just have her fly Drogon from kingdom to kingdom burning every castle and farmhouse in Westeros.   

Genocidal??? Burning KL is the warning message...her goal is not to kill EVERYONE in Westeros... 

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8 hours ago, Francie said:

On no, she enjoyed it. From taunting the sell sword leaders in her tent with the dragons ("But you promised we'd be safe!") to her "Anything they want" response to Sansa about what dragons ate. Watch the show again. Dany smirked her way through a lot of it. 

Smirking in the situations you noted was being a smart ass appropriately.   I don’t think enjoying being a smart ass equates to enjoying burning people to ashes.

8 hours ago, Francie said:

Dany's reaction to Sansa's appropriate question was callous and childish in light of this (and also Dany thought herself so smug and powerful in that moment, which was my comment):

burned child.jpg

I disagree. Sansa was being bitchy under the guise of asking a legitimate question. I can’t stand Sansa so anything Daenerys said to her is fine with me. Sansa was smug and insolent every chance she got.

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2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Good luck with that.

But seriously, WHY?

Why do you want a mass murderer on the throne?  Why do you want a ruler who demands mass worship of her, adoration, or she will react with FIRE AND BLOOD *her nuke, Drogon.*  Why do you want Westeros to be ruled by a hypocrite and a liar?  She SAID it was all to have the rightful ruler of Westeros on the throne.  No.  SHE wanted the throne.  The minute she found out she was not the rightful rule, she tried to hide that fact, to the point of ordering the real rightful ruler, Jon, someone she supposedly loved, to hide that truth from the people of Westeros, to lie?

Dany looks good on paper and in person.  The reality is a megalomaniac power and adoration junkie who will kill anyone to get her way.  She's more Jim Jones than "savior."

Because it’s a fictional TV show and the showrunners keep carrying on about how they don’t want a typical ending and they want to subvert expectations and tropes. 

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Now that the dust has settled (so to speak) and no one is paying attention, I do hereby render my opinion on Dany’s assault on King’s Landing. I have enjoyed playing Devil’s advocate, in my head at least, while reading the boards. Dany is no angel, which is ground that has been well covered here, trampled even, in the back and forth. I think we wanted her to be an angel -- an avenging angel at least. Because of what she went through, and everybody loves a comeback. Because she genuinely despised those who took advantage of the powerless. Because powerful women are what we need right now. And because she seemed kind and not scary – most of the time.

She is many good things, but also a lot of bad things that were right in front of us from the very first. She is power hungry (on a show where that doesn’t turn out well), extremely entitled, and definitely believes her own hype. And before this episode she had already done things far more terrible than had any of the people we see as the “good guys”.  She can be incredibly brutal, and suffers from black and white thinking when it comes those who have offended her. I enjoyed seeing people point all that out.

But yet, when it came time to show her lighting everybody up, I just couldn’t get there. I had a moment of disbelief – not that the showrunners would do this, but that SHE would do this. She has always reserved her brutality for those she considered the Bad People, those who have wronged her or others. Try as I might, I couldn’t see her thinking of civilians (particularly women and children, whom she so often strove to protect) as the Bad People. There had to be something more than just:

“I’m super upset, you guys! No, like, literally! And the only thing that’s going to make me feel better is BURNING BABIES.”

Destroying the Red Keep after the bells had rung, the symbol and stronghold of the Bad People, would have been a perfectly believable way for her to direct her anger, if that's all it was. But we needed to see some sort of reasoning that, however good or bad, would make sense to this person we’ve gotten to know, that would get her to the point where she thought, “No. This isn’t enough. I have to go further than I have ever gone.” Maybe she felt this should be her Carthage, where the Romans pulled down every stone and salted the ground to make sure their old enemy never rose again. But we needed to see her coming around to that way of thinking, and while they sort of hinted at it, they never really showed her getting there. She was just sad and pissed, and as much of a shithead as she can be, I don’t think Sad and Pissed Dany would burn innocents as they ran in terror.

Edited by MJ Frog · Reason: Word fussiness.
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5 hours ago, MadameKillerB said:

Yeah, Euron swam ashore right at the spot Jaime would be in? Ok, show.

Between that and somehow being able to capture Missendei and no one else, even though she was on the same ship as everyone else who was on the ship and were fine, I am starting to wonder if there is a sea god out there who is just dicking with people...

The Karken is finally sick of Euron using its imagine without paying for copyright!?!

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8 hours ago, LadyPenelope said:

And, importantly, not for any of her actual crimes, but for having sex outside of marriage. So fuck ‘em all, they deserved to burn. Much like when Dany burned the khals - they wanted her dead for no reason but misogyny so it’s really hard to care. 

That's not true.  Cersei had an incestuous relationship with her brother while married to the king.  That relationship produced children that she passed off as the legitimate heirs to the throne.  That was her crime.  Giving her pathetic cousin poisoned wine to give to the king was her crime.  If the boar hadn't mortally wounded Robert he would have died  from the poison.  Those were the crimes she was on trial for.  

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Sansa hadn't started conspiring against her yet that we saw. She gave the information to Tyrion and probably knew he'd tell Varys. She'd no doubt be interested in Varys doing something to undermine her. But she's not actually running any conspiracy herself.

Though of course she is doing exactly that in Dany's eyes. Just telling Tyrion the information is a conspiracy to her and she's not entirely wrong when it comes to her motivation. But by that same token she'd probably consider the North pretty similar. She knew Sansa would back Jon against her and she knows the same thing about the North. 

I'm confused.  You're saying Sansa isn't yet conspiring against Daenerys, but by breaking Jon's confidence and telling Tyrion (who she knew would blab to someone) I don't know how you can't say that Sansa was actively conspiring against Daenerys by setting the pieces in place.   

6 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

This was a slight of hand so Jon could be King.  Dany could have already taken Kings Landing, and never gone North to help with the Knight King (who it turned out was killed by Arya), and not lost two dragons in the process.  It was boring TV tropes to put the guy on the throne instead of the girl. 

Arya would not have been able to kill the Night King without the efforts of everyone at WF.  She wouldn't have even been at WF if she hadn't heard that Jon was KiTN.  I love that Arya took out the NK and don't think I'm downplaying what she did, but to ignore everything that happened to get her there IMO is wrong and unfair.

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1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

Smirking in the situations you noted was being a smart ass appropriately.   I don’t think enjoying being a smart ass equates to enjoying burning people to ashes.

I disagree. Sansa was being bitchy under the guise of asking a legitimate question. I can’t stand Sansa so anything Daenerys said to her is fine with me. Sansa was smug and insolent every chance she got.

So be bitchy in return when the courtier rudely asks you a legitimate question about dragon feed or the wounded, rebuke the rudeness, and answer the legitimate question legitimately, or else you show you care more about the bruise to your vanity than your subjects, or your injured dragon baby.

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10 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I'm confused.  You're saying Sansa isn't yet conspiring against Daenerys, but by breaking Jon's confidence and telling Tyrion (who she knew would blab to someone) I don't know how you can't say that Sansa was actively conspiring against Daenerys by setting the pieces in place.   

I think in order to be in a conspiracy you have to be planning and helping the steps to make things happen. Sansa basically gave the information to Tyrion hoping that someone, either Tyrion or Varys or someone else, would use it to start a conspiracy. One she herself might not know anything about. So I don't think Dany's wrong to consider Sansa an enemy in that way, but Sansa has no plots against Dany at all. If someone brought her a plot she might absolutely get involved, but as of now she's not doing anything. I wouldn't expect Dany to make this distinction and if I were her I wouldn't either--why wait for Sansa to get the chance to do something she's already made clear she will do? But I wouldn't consider Sansa involved in a conspiracy plot at this point. Any more than I'd consider Tyrion involved in one when he was talking to Varys about the information he'd shared.

Basically, I'd expect her to be convicted in a court of Dany, but if I was on a jury I'd see no evidence of conspiracy on her part just because she shared information.

Edited by sistermagpie
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So much of this season has seemingly just been based around getting Dany to the point where she goes evil, even if it makes no sense. Why does Sansa have an instant hate on for Dany, when she can normally fake diplomacy with much worse people? Why did everyone in her life drop dead one after the other, no matter how improbable? Why can no one here keep a damn secret all of the sudden? Because the writers knew they wanted Mad Queen Dany, and they just had to get her there. Its a big issue I have with this whole season, the characters dont seem so much like deep and interesting people who we have known and followed for years, and seen then struggle and work and fail and succeed, they are just pawns on board now, who have to move in ways that seem awkward or random, just to get them to the ending they want. 

Someone in twitter pointed out that so much of what made this show work was its attention to detail and history, both of the characters, their relationships, and the world at large. Some of the shows greatest moments, and some of the moments that worked best this season, were all based around paying off that long history we have with these characters and the place they call home, but this season, so much of that history is being ignored or fully ignored, as we rush frantically towards an ending. They hope that pure spectacle will distract from the rushed storytelling, but its not really working. They have so many plates spinning, that plates are dropping left and right in the desire to get to that ending. 

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I think whether or not Sansa was treasonous is up for debate.

I mean, she was not actively plotting danys death, she was not sending scrolls, amassing a force, drawing up plans or even trying to convince Jon. 

BUT, back in old school England even TALKING about what might happen when the king died, or suggesting that someone might be better at the job was considered treasonous.

So, I don't know that the answer is cut and dry...but I'm pretty sure I could tell you which side dany falls on....

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11 minutes ago, screamin said:

So be bitchy in return when the courtier rudely asks you a legitimate question about dragon feed or the wounded, rebuke the rudeness, and answer the legitimate question legitimately, or else you show you care more about the bruise to your vanity than your subjects, or your injured dragon baby.

There has been so much left out of the season's scenes, we have to fill in the blanks.  I can't believe there was no dialogue about the armies and dragons coming to WF before they got there.  So, I don't think Sansa's question was legitimate or meant to show genuine concern.  Sansa has been shown to be underhanded, conniving and sneaky since season 6.  And who said Daenerys had to be "queenly" during every interaction with someone who clearly didn't like her, did little to hide it, and was antagonistic more often than not?   But to answer your question, yes, be bitchy back.  I've got no problem with it.  

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1 minute ago, taurusrose said:

And who said Daenerys had to be "queenly" during every interaction with someone who clearly didn't like her, did little to hide it, and was antagonistic more often than not?

Because she wanted to be the queen?

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I like this episode the more I think about it. I decided to believe that Dany didn't go mad, exactly, she just made a choice after seeing that the masses weren't cheering her after the city surrendered. I also think Arya died several times and was brought back by the lord of light, as was the white horse she rode off on. I kind of like that they've left room for me to read things into it, at least until the finale. 

It's not the story I was hoping for, but I don't think it's being told badly. Except for the smallness of Westeros- they get around it very quickly, even those not on a dragon, and that's weird. 

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24 minutes ago, phoenix780 said:

I like this episode the more I think about it. I decided to believe that Dany didn't go mad, exactly, she just made a choice after seeing that the masses weren't cheering her after the city surrendered. I also think Arya died several times and was brought back by the lord of light, as was the white horse she rode off on. I kind of like that they've left room for me to read things into it, at least until the finale. 

It's not the story I was hoping for, but I don't think it's being told badly. Except for the smallness of Westeros- they get around it very quickly, even those not on a dragon, and that's weird. 

Honestly, if I liked a character I'd prefer they go mad rather than sanely make the decision to burn frightened women and children because they weren't cheering.  To me that is a far, far worse person.

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1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Why does Sansa have an instant hate on for Dany, when she can normally fake diplomacy with much worse people?

One she's a targ..... And the only person on this show whos consistently been able to put family shit to the side a d deal with the bigger issue has been Jon... Aerys burned her grandfather and uncle alive.. Rhaegar stole her aunt and raped her... Two she says she's her queen.. And the north just fought for independence... Three Jon is in love with her and the last time one of her brothers who was the KITN fell in love with a foreign girl he got killed for it.. And Jon's already been killed once for dealing with outsiders... Four and this is to your point about history.. Maybe after all this time that all the characters have been thru.. And the myriad of monsters Sansa has been around.. She was just like... Im tired of this... Add in Dany is a beautiful woman.. Her terrifying dragons and foreign army... The political ramifications of Jon bending the knee... Frustration with Jon making what to her at the time  seemed like crazy decisions without much input from her.. And Dany's well known arrogance... Well thats a recipe for a somewhat brisk shoulder

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1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

So much of this season has seemingly just been based around getting Dany to the point where she goes evil, even if it makes no sense. Why does Sansa have an instant hate on for Dany, when she can normally fake diplomacy with much worse people? Why did everyone in her life drop dead one after the other, no matter how improbable? Why can no one here keep a damn secret all of the sudden? Because the writers knew they wanted Mad Queen Dany, and they just had to get her there. Its a big issue I have with this whole season, the characters dont seem so much like deep and interesting people who we have known and followed for years, and seen then struggle and work and fail and succeed, they are just pawns on board now, who have to move in ways that seem awkward or random, just to get them to the ending they want. 

Someone in twitter pointed out that so much of what made this show work was its attention to detail and history, both of the characters, their relationships, and the world at large. Some of the shows greatest moments, and some of the moments that worked best this season, were all based around paying off that long history we have with these characters and the place they call home, but this season, so much of that history is being ignored or fully ignored, as we rush frantically towards an ending. They hope that pure spectacle will distract from the rushed storytelling, but its not really working. They have so many plates spinning, that plates are dropping left and right in the desire to get to that ending. 

I think Sansa had every right to be leery of Dany. 
she doesn't know her. and the only things that she knows is how her family butchered her family. And Jon willingly gave up Northern Independence. 

and to be fair, the only secret that was ever secret was the Heritage of Jon Snow - and that's because Ned was the only one who knew. (oh i lie - and Lyssa killing Jon Arryn). but Littlefinger killed her, and Ned took that with him to the grave. almost every other secret was flat out common knowledge by someone group or the other. 

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1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

I'm confused.  You're saying Sansa isn't yet conspiring against Daenerys, but by breaking Jon's confidence and telling Tyrion (who she knew would blab to someone) I don't know how you can't say that Sansa was actively conspiring against Daenerys by setting the pieces in place.   

It doesn't matter if Sansa was actively conspiring against Daenerys or not. What matter is that Sansa couldn't keep her promise to Jon, revealing his secret to the world and underming Dany's quest to the throne, because Jon was the rightful heir. She could have told that Jon was a Targaryen to, I dunno, Pod or Brienne, and the effect would still be the same - because soon or later would be known that Dany was not the heir.

FWIW, I don't think Sasnsa was conspiring, but hoping someone would. She took a chance with Tyrion, who despise her many problems with, she knew she could trust.

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Athena

Keep it polite. Do not get personal and do not get into repetitive arguments about the characters or what defines a fiction. Further posts will be hidden and posters will be warned.

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