S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[raven]

Episode Synopsis:

The survivors plan their next steps; Cersei makes a power move.

Reminder: There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into any book talk you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read all the books to date. Any information from unpublished books, such as preview chapters should be in spoiler tags.

Edited May 6, 2019 by SilverStormm
Title update!

[anamika]

Poor, poor Missandei.

So Jon and Ghost get absolutely no scenes at all.

Jon continues to be the absolute dumb moron to tell Sansa of all people his secret - he knows the shady shit she's pulled.

Sansa continues to be the absolute worst. Ungrateful and now treacherous to boot. Runs and tells Tyrion Jon's secret - the same Sansa as season one.

Sam was so angry at Dany and still kept Jon's secret for him. Unlike Sansa.

Arya - don't care anymore. She only seems to have a plot with Gendry, these days. Will she even get a scene with Dany and Tyrion before the show ends?

D&D threw SanSan shippers a bone.

I want Dany to just go on a rampage and just burn shit down at this point.

[Oscirus]

You know shit has hit the fan when Varys is the one stressing cooler heads prevailing while Tyrion stfu and watches.

Nice goodbyes to certain characters.

R.i.p Missandei, you were an awesome advisor

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, anamika said:

D&D threw SanSan shippers a bone.

Though I don't think many of them will much care for either Sandor's super-casual references to her being raped or Sansa basically saying that without the rape she wouldn't have become a game player.

That closing scene is one of the dumbest in the show's history.  Dany has, like, two-dozen guys, in front of a city whose walls are manned by tons of super-ballistas whose bolts we've just seen shred warships, and Cersei has tens of thousands of soldiers besides.  Just kill her.  There is literally no downside.

Missandei got an awesome final line, at least.

Edited May 6, 2019 by SeanC

[Growsonwalls]

Omg. I'm not sure I have the intestinal fortitude to finish out this series.

The beginning of the episode had so many wonderful moments that I knew something horrible was going to happen.

But the good moments:

1) Jaime and Brienne finally consummate their relationship in a post-Armageddon keg party! Woohoo!

2) Gendry asked Arya to be his lady and she gently turned him down.

3) We see Sansa and Hound talking.

4) Tyrion and Jaime having a post-sex debrief was too cute. So like what close brothers in real life would actually do.

5) Yay Ghost is still there!

6) And Gilly's knocked up! I'm sure the baby will be adorable and cherubic.

7) "Vomiting is not celebrating." Tormund: "Yes it is." Drunk Tormund looking for a booty call might have been the funniest thing I've seen on GoT since drunk Tormund told everyone about suckling giant milk.

NOW TO THE BAD STUFF:

1) Oh Jon. Now everyone knows the secret. I understand why he told his family, but still ...

2) On the other hand, oh Dany. She doesn't get it that once someone knows something like what Jon knows, it "doesn't matter" what he wants. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle. You cannot expect someone to just keep having aunt-nephew sex and keep that sort of thing a secret.

3) I know this Sansa v. Dany thing is eating the internet alive, but considering how piss poor the plan to take King's Landing was, Sansa's right. Jon probably is better. Dany's plan was awful from start to finish.

4) Jon not saying goodbye to Ghost? Unforgivable.

5) Tyrion and Varys NO ... Don't be traitors. But you know in their mind, they've already turned against Dany.

6) Jaime riding off on his kamikaze mission to kill Cersei and leaving behind Brienne broke my heart.

7) Missandei 😞 So horrible that Greyworm and Dany had to see her die.

😎 Rhaegal 😞 Down to one dragon.

9) And dammit, Cersei is awful, but as we've seen this episode, being humane means awful things happen to you. 

10) I just can't think about next episode. I feel like Tyrion, Jaime, Dany and/or Jon are goners.

[raven]

8 minutes ago, anamika said:

Sansa continues to be the absolute worst. Ungrateful and now treacherous to boot. Runs and tells Tyrion Jon's secret - the same Sansa as season one.

I haven't hated Sansa but it's hilarious how Dumb and Dumber are talking after the episode about how "Sansa is thinking several steps ahead, she learned from Littlefinger" in that scene.  It looked 100 percent to me like Sansa was trying to decide if she should break Jon's confidence because it would be wrong.  There is real disconnect between what DnD think they are writing and showing and how Sophie is playing it.

Missandei was right with her last word "Dracarys". 

Jamie is such an asshole.  Oh Brienne, you made the same mistake a lot of women do - one or two decent deeds in a lifetime of lies and bad deeds does not a good man make.

[Neurochick]

I have a question, is Missandei a character in the books?  

[anamika]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

Though I don't think many of them will much care for either Sandor's super-casual references to her being raped or Sansa basically saying that without the rape she wouldn't have become a game player. 

That was so fucking terrible.

Jon should have remembered his book one conversation with Arya

"And whatever you do …”

... don't … tell … Sansa!”

[Oscirus]

Just now, Neurochick said:

I have a question, is Missandei a character in the books?  

Yep but a lot younger.

[mac123x]

I thought it was very brave of the show runners to have another filler episode this late in the series.  Honestly, 50 minutes of character wrap up after the battle was a bit much.  I really only enjoyed the Sansa / Hound scene.  The rest was too fanficcy:  Gendry is now lord of Storms End, Jaime and Brienne boinked, etc.

What little plot advancement happened was due to another deus ex Euron.  I really hope he dies.

I also thought Tyrion and Varys considering turning on Dany to be unmotivated.  Has Varys even had a conversation with Jon?  Suddenly, after supporting Daenerys for years, he's ready to throw her overboard since she's justifiably angry at Cercei.  My eyes rolled.

Funeral was really well done.  I got a little misty at Jon's eulogy.

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

That closing scene is one of the dumbest in the show's history.  Dany has, like, two-dozen guys, in front of a city whose walls are manned by tons of super-ballistas whose bolts we've just seen shred warships, and Cersei has tens of thousands of soldiers besides.  Just kill her.  There is literally no downside.

I was thinking that too.  It's Cercei -- she blew up the Sept; she'd have no qualms about slaughtering a group that was presumably under the flag of parley.

[Enigma X]

I have no words other than this season has been letting me down and this episode was no exception. I am not excited for the last two episodes but still am a fan of the show. More so, for the characters I love and not the ones I hate (Lannisters and Urine).

[raven]

1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

I have a question, is Missandei a character in the books?

Yes, but she is a very young girl, around 10, I think.

[mjc570]

I love this show, but this episode was so boring and poorly written as to be almost unwatchable.  We don't get to see Sansa or Arya's reactions to Jon's parentage announcement; Jon doesn't even say good-by to Ghost (just rehomes him), it didn't occur to Daenerys to circle around Euron's fleet and burn the ships from the rear (all the dragon killer harpoons were facing front).  Bron's brief appearance was a huge let down.  All of these supposedly clever people just act so stupidly.  Tyrion doesn't understand his sister AT ALL. 

When Daenerys asks the perfectly reasonable question about how long the army needs to recover, Sansa could have actually answered ( a week, 2 weeks, whatever)  instead of just punting to some indefinite time.  No wonder Daenerys didn't listen to her perfectly reasonable suggestion.

I could go on with so much I disliked, which really arising from my high expectations.  I just hate that so much time is wasted (like the extended feasting) when there are only a few episodes left.  I did like a few things - Arya/Hound road trip, Bron not breaking Tyrion's nose. 

[HeySandyStrange]

 Missandei nooooooooo! Figured her and Greyworm couldn't get a happy ending on butterfly island. I doubt Grey worm will live but hopefully he takes some fuckers out with him.

Damn, Jon could've at least given Ghost a cuddle and some pets before sending him off.

The politics between who deserves the throne, Dany or Jon, is one hell of a clusterfuck just waiting to happen. Not looking forward to that shit. I hope if they do press the kingdom on Jon, he totally shocks them all and breaks Westeros into seven self-governing kingdoms before he deuces out. 

I really can't wait until Cersei, Qyburn, and Euron get what's coming to them.

Edited May 6, 2019 by HeySandyStrange

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

I have a question, is Missandei a character in the books?  

Kind of.  She's a ten-year-old girl there, but has the same intro (as a translator for the guys Dany liberates the Unsullied from).  Her relationship to Dany is more like a surrogate daughter.

Wait, I just realized, did we seriously not get any reaction at all from Arya to Jon's parentage reveal?  The fuck?

[anamika]

2 minutes ago, raven said:

I haven't hated Sansa but it's hilarious how Dumb and Dumber are talking after the episode about how "Sansa is thinking several steps ahead, she learned from Littlefinger" in that scene.

What exactly does Sansa want? For Tyrion/Varys to betray Dany and Jon on the Iron Throne? Was she not all about Northern independence? Suddenly King on the Iron Throne is okay, if it's Jon?

I hope this destroys Sansa's relationship with Jon once and for all.

[stagmania]

Good lord the sexist bullshit was rampant in this episode. Brienne has sex once and becomes a woman who begs after a man, Sansa is happy she went through rape and torture and manipulation because it made her Strong, Dany is a bad queen because she *gasp* expects people to respect her and recognize her authority. Just seriously ridiculous shit so obviously written by men. 

And if they expect me to get on board with team betray Danaerys they’re going about it all wrong. Girlfriend lost her army, lost her dragons, lost her two best friends to protect these people. She listened to the counsel of her advisors every time. And what does she get for it? Nothing but disrespect, distrust, treason and more losses. I’m officially on her side. 

And Missandei, poor Missandei. Used as a plot device to kick off a Mad Dany plot. She deserved so much better. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by stagmania

[FemmyV]

1st impressions:

If Dany ends up losing her shit and dies bitterly, I'm going to be very, very pissed off.

Damn, Sansa was finally becoming tolerable. Now she's reverting back to her Season 1 selfish itch, with less charm. And D and D are using Arya to prop this crap up, what sucks even more.

Poor Missandei. So sorry Dany's magic word didn't work for her.

Poor Grey Worm.

Poor Dany, to have to watch Jorah, Rheagol, and Missandei all die in her service.

Poor Gendry. Arya used him. She should have slept with Pod.

I wonder if Euron picked up on Tyrion's baby talk.

Poor Brienne. Love of a good woman couldn't keep Jaime from heading South. Poor Jaime.

Poor Jon, stuck between a rock and a hard place. And Tormond spilling the beans about his death! What do the surviving Northerners think that was all about?

Poor Tyrion, he's the only sane person in the show right now. 

[Enigma X]

And while most of the fandom is calling Jon, Daeny, and/or Sansa dumb, I just want to throw out I am fan of all three of those characters and don’t agree with all their actions but don’t find any of them dumb.

Now this episode has proven to me that the Lannister boys are dumb. Bronx has come to kill them in order of Cersei and one tries reasoning with her while the other is willing to die for her again. Truth be told, I thought the Lannister boys were dumb seasons ago.

[GraceK]

Seriously they are not even hiding Sansa as a villain. She is coming across as so spiteful, jealous and vindictive it’s bordering on disgusting. Especially how gracious and nice Dany was this episode , giving credit to Arya and legitimatizing Gendry. Sansa comes off petty as hell. And then telling Jon’s secret when he swore them to secrecy? She couldn’t even give an answer when Tyrion asked why she hated Dany. It really looks like hardcore Jealousy. I did love Missendai’s last words though. Dracarys motherfuckers!!!! 

And Jaime?? Really? Going back to Cersei? Nice character regression.

[CherryMalotte]

Well...that was depressing.

Varys just signed his death warrant, noble as he is wanting to protect the small folk - he's dead as all get out now. 

That's some party at the Stark House, even Tormund recovered well after the big woman rejected him.  And poor Brienne!  She's right, Jamie has become a good man, or better, but yeah that still doesn't mean he's gonna stick around.  He's dead meat too, one way or another.   

I was hoping against hope that we weren't gonna get Unhinged Dany, but there she is, down a dragon, mad as hell and she ain't gonna take it anymore.  Problem is, she's gonna take down a whole shitload of people with her with her vengeance is mine sayeth the Targ shit.  It is not going to be pretty.  Like you knew it wasn't going to be 100% happy times for the good guys, okay it's not gonna be pretty, but unfortunately this is gonna be pretty awful and ugly and nasty.   I realize that D&D didn't start this all to just please us, that with any truly great show there's balance between the saints and the sinners but boy...I just feel like there's been some sloppy seconds to the writing.  Makes me sad.

On the other hand...I would watch a short series of Arya & The Hound - Road Trip Deux!

[domina89]

So did it not occur to any of them on Team Dany to kill Qyburn the second they killed Missandei? I mean, really????? At least take him hostage...

I'm not even going to complain about that sad attempt at a goodbye scene between Jon and Ghost because at least GHOST IS ALIVE.  That made me happier than anything else in this depressing episode.

Edited May 6, 2019 by domina89

[anamika]

13 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Wait, I just realized, did we seriously not get any reaction at all from Arya to Jon's parentage reveal?  The fuck?

lol! She probably went off to have good bye sex with Gendry after that reveal.

[Scarlett45]

I keep forgetting there are two episode threads. 

Where is Ser Davos? Did he go with Jon? I realized Kitt Harrington has filmed no scenes “in the south”. Also, now that the wall is down, are the wildings still “other” or will there be more trade and interaction with northern people?

1 minute ago, anamika said:

lol! She probably went off to have good bye sex with Gendry after that reveal.

Yup. Arya has no interest in marrying, or being with Gendry in a permanent way but I can see getting another sexy time session in. 

[nodorothyparker]

Everyone felt about 5 degrees off character in this one but it still managed to be the one where everybody gets their heart broken and made me wish a bit that they'd ended last week with defeating the Night King and just left it at that.

Six seasons of teasing and buildup and they blow through Jaime and Brienne finally getting together in what felt like about 30 seconds.  Travel times being what they are, I think we were supposed to think it was weeks if not longer, but there was just so little in the payoff.  It was telling though that as long as it seemed like the combined Stargaryen forces were going to handle the final war against Cersei, Jaime was content to stay where he was and let them do that.  I was actually a little astonished how willing he was to do that, given what a big deal they made just a few episodes ago about knights' oaths and Brienne's line about how they're going to burn the city to the ground.  It was only when it registered with him that the war was going badly and that his Disney evil queen of a sister might actually still win that he needed to go and finish it and say what needed to be said to make doubly sure Brienne didn't follow and get herself killed too.

Gods, Sansa, I don't have half the issues with you that some seem to, yet you must have set the land speed record breaking that confidence.  All the dithering Tyrion and Varys were doing about who rightfully gets the ugly chair doesn't interest me much as I've never cared very much who gets it in the end, but ye gods you guys are quick to throw Dany over for a known bastard who's spent the entire run of the show basically failing upwards after it was largely your ineffective counsel that got her here.  You could see something breaking in Dany by the end after yet another episode that emphasized just how much of an outsider she really is to most of these people.

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, domina89 said:

So did it not occur to any of them on Team Dany to kill Qyburn the second they killed Missandei? I mean, really????? At least take him hostage...

I'm not even going to complain about that sad attempt at a goodbye scene between Jon and Ghost because at least GHOST IS ALIVE.  That made me happier than anything else in this depressing episode.

You kill qyburn they kill tyrion , it would basically even itself out.

[Lamima]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

You kill qyburn they kill tyrion , it would basically even itself out.

Speaking of...why didn't Cersei have them kill Tyrian? I mean she believes he is the Valanqar that will kill her. So why not give that order to loose the arrows at him? 

[Oscirus]

Just now, Lamima said:

Speaking of...why didn't Cersei have them kill Tyrian? I mean she believes he is the Valanqar that will kill her. So why not give that order to loose the arrows at him? 

Valanqur isn't a thing on the show, only in the books.

[Growsonwalls]

22 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Seriously they are not even hiding Sansa as a villain. She is coming across as so spiteful, jealous and vindictive it’s bordering on disgusting. Especially how gracious and nice Dany was this episode , giving credit to Arya and legitimatizing Gendry. Sansa comes off petty as hell. And then telling Jon’s secret when he swore them to secrecy? She couldn’t even give an answer when Tyrion asked why she hated Dany. It really looks like hardcore Jealousy. I did love Missendai’s last words though. Dracarys motherfuckers!!!! 

And Jaime?? Really? Going back to Cersei? Nice character regression.

He's not going back. I think he;s on a kamikaze mission to kill her. 

[domina89]

10 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

You kill qyburn they kill tyrion , it would basically even itself out.

At this point I don't think Dany would have a problem with that...

[bluvelvet]

I don't think Daenerys is going mad, this is war and she is using her armed forces which includes dragons. She knows Cersei is ruthless so she has to come at her hard.  She's fighting a war and innocents die in war.

This show was never going to have a happy ending, I assume something similar will occur in the books in the author ever finishes them.

Sansa wasn't being spiteful, she 100% for the North and she didn't like the fact that Jon bent the knee to Dany, if Jon becomes King the North gets its independence and she is Lady of Winterfell.  She is being strategic.

Edited May 6, 2019 by bluvelvet
grammer

[Advance35]

I once again side with Sansa.  The Soldiers just saved the world, some time to rest and recuperate is not out of order.   She even delivered it in a polite tone of voice, but The Beast was chewing her face and all but chanted "Now. Now. Now."

And this episode proved that Jon would be useless to the North as Dany's consort.  He'd be just another "Yes Man."  Sansa had a very reasonable suggestion and Jon pretty much told her to shut the hole in her face because "Queenie" is feeling insecure.

I think Sansa told Tyion hoping something would come of it.  Something that will hurt Danery's powerbase long term.  And she wasn't wrong.  Varys has all but jumped ship and given considerable thought to Dany's assassination.  Tyrion is hanging by a thread.

Love the chemistry between Tyrion and Sansa by the way. Squeeee.

[Chaser]

Bending the knee to Dany made Jon stupid, I don’t blame Sansa.

That said, I think she would have continued to follow Jon’s lead if not for Tyrion admitting he feared Dany. Shades of Cersei. 

[maystone]

I don't have a problem with Sansa telling Tyrion the truth about Jon. That's vital information that all of the major players should have. And you'll notice that Tyrion didn't waste any time telling Varys - for the same reason. I suppose Davos will be next on the list, as he should be. I liked Varys's line that now so many know, it's no longer a secret, it's information.

So is this it for Brienne? She's sworn to protect Sansa; I don't see her breaking her oath to take off after Jaime to help keep him safe. I'll be sad if that's it for Ser Brienne, as I'm sad that Tormund is heading back to what's left of the Wall. And Ghost! FFS Jon, he's your bonded direwolf; he would have died for you. He's standing there covered in blood, and you can't even pat his head in good-bye? Forget anything else in your past: This is the karma that's going to come back and bite you in the ass. Pun intended.

I was very sorry to see Missandei die. She was brave and loyal and just about the most beautiful human being I've ever seen.

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, Advance35 said:

Varys has all but jumped ship and given considerable thought to Dany's assassination.  Tyrion is hanging by a thread.

Varys without his whisper powers is useless to Dany and Tyrion has been hanging by that same thread for a while. He's legit scared of  Dany at this point, unless she does something heinous, he's attached to her from here on out.

[nodorothyparker]

25 minutes ago, GraceK said:

And Jaime?? Really? Going back to Cersei? Nice character regression.

He was fine with staying at Winterfell and sitting out the rest of the war to let the combined Stargaryen forces take her out.  It was only after they got the news that Euron had killed a second dragon and that they'd lost much of their fleet, meaning she might actually win this war and he and the people he loves will never be safe, that he bucked up to go back and finish the job himself.  

For all that Tyrion was quick to earlier call Jaime on knowing what Cersei is and still being taken in by her, he keeps doing it over and over too.  It was painful watching him try to reason with her like that's ever been possible.  That has never worked out for him.  Never.

All season the remaining Starks have been hammering the us against everyone who isn't us pretty heavily considering they just needed everyone else to not end up white walker chow.  I think that's why Sansa being so quick to break Jon's confidence bugs.  Yes, it's information, but it wasn't her information to tell.  You don't get to pull "family" on him and then sell him out like that if he doesn't want it.

[raven]

36 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Good lord the sexist bullshit was rampant in this episode. Brienne has sex once and becomes a woman who begs after a man, Sansa is happy she went through rape and torture and manipulation because it made her Strong, Dany is a bad queen because she *gasp* expects people to respect her and recognize her authority. Just seriously ridiculous shit so obviously written by men. 

I hated that Brienne slept with Jamie.  Hated it.  He has always been Cersei's lap dog and he used Brienne to try to feel better about himself.  Brienne standing there crying after him was awful and a disservice to the character.

And yes, Sansa's line was ridiculous.  Do these writers not know how that sounds??  Though Arya accepts herself for who she is and is at peace with it, occasionally she seems regretful and hey, at least it gave her the skills to take out the NK.   So Sansa is glad she was raped and tortured so that she can...be a better liar, or something.   Between the atrocious dialogue and Sophie Turner's subpar performance, the Sansa character is frankly a mess.

2 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

All season the remaining Starks have been hammering the us against everyone who isn't us pretty heavily considering they just needed everyone else to not end up white walker chow.  I think that's why Sansa being so quick to break Jon's confidence bugs.  Yes, it's information, but it wasn't her information to tell.  You don't get to pull "family" on him and then sell him out like that if he doesn't want it.

Exactly - this is sort of where I was trying to go.  Sansa tells Jon he doesn't trust her yet she breaks his greatest confidence to her.    The Starks are all about each other but Arya takes off and Sansa doesn't confide whatever plans she has to anyone. 

[jade.black]

This is the first episode I've been intensely disappointed in. Where to even start?!

The Jaime and Brienne scene felt like fan fiction.

I've long been a shipper of Gendry/Arya, but him declaring his love felt way too sudden and soon.

Tyrion is being written like a much less intelligent character than he is.

Cersei would have taken out Dany and her whole crew right then and there. Since when does she fight fair? What was the point of letting them walk away? God, that was ridiculous.

They couldn't be bothered to CGI Jon hugging or petting Ghost goodbye? His loyal direwolf for years? Really? Cool, just drop him off at the Wildling Shelter and be on your way, Jon, you dick.

Sam doesn't deserve a happy ending after his performance last week. DOLOROUS EDD DIED BECAUSE OF YOU.

How did Dany know immediately that Missandei was captured? How did Cersei know Missandei meant anything?

They offered no explanation of how Arya managed the Night King sneak attack nor did they show anyone speaking to her about her monumental feat face to face.

I never thought I'd say this, honestly, but as of this week I'm firmly on Team Dany. I don't even care for Dany, but this writing sucks.

The only good: Jaime heading back to Cersei adds some much needed realism to what's turned into a black and white "good vs evil" ending. If this turns into a double double-cross and he betrays Cersei for Brienne and co, it will be so cliche it'll hurt.

Edited May 6, 2019 by jade.black

[Oscirus]

11 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

For all that Tyrion was quick to earlier call Jaime on knowing what Cersei is and still being taken in by her, he keeps doing it over and over too.  It was painful watching him try to reason with her like that's ever been possible.  That has never worked out for him.  Never.

At that point, Tyrion was desperate. He knows whats coming and he'll be unable to stop it. Im fairly certain that he knew what was going to happen but he had to try anyway.

[nodorothyparker]

3 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

At that point, Tyrion was desperate. He knows whats coming and he'll be unable to stop it. Im fairly certain that he knew what was going to happen but he had to try anyway.

I know.  It doesn't make it less painful to watch though because his line readings always make me think some part of him genuinely believes it.  That's how he ended up looking like a dumbass believing Cersei was seriously ever going to send troops to the North. 

[gatopretoNYC]

Rhaegal! Missandei! 😪😪

Way to keep that secret, Sansa. Your word is shit. 

[Umbelina]

The episode title is THE LAST OF THE STARKS.

[anamika]

How much time do these soldiers require to recover from 30 minutes of fighting? Sansa is talking like they spend a week fighting the dead or something. It was over so quick and the soldiers who did the most fighting were the Unsullied.

These complaints are just like her complaints about the food. What happened there by the way? Seems like they are doing fine with that for now.

Sansa: Why did you bring all these men? We don't have food for them.

Sansa: Why are you taking away all your men? Let them sit here and eat all the food I don't have.

Has Sansa done anything other than whinge about the plans other people are making?

Sansa keeps dogpiling over all of Dany's plans because she just does not like Dany and wants to renege on the North's promise to help Dany fight Cersei now that Dany has kept her end of the bargain.

[Glaze Crazy]

I get Danerys' anger and frustration. She's risked everything she's been working towards for so many years to support the North in the Long Night. She's lost Jorah, who would and did die for her and would have supported her before any other contender for the Iron Throne. She's lost a lot of her army and now it's taking whats left of them a couple weeks to march south to the final battle for the Iron Throne, the reason she's even in Westeros after all. She's sitting at a post-battle celebration and all the cheers, back-slapping and such is going to Jon and the Starks, with a bit of Lannister celebration going on at a table in her full view. I saw a person basically left out of the bonding and acknowledgements of her contributions and what it cost her.  Plus now she knows that someone else has the (assumed) right to waltz in and take the throne from her, based on birthright and blood. Now her two remaining advisors are aware of that fact and are, in the least, contemplating an alternative to her reign, whether they will move ahead with that or not.  Then she loses another dragon and Missandei to Cersei's forces. I don't see her as a mad queen or even unhinged. At this point she's pretty much isolated and vulnerable. At the least she probably should have done Cersei in first before heading north for the Night King so that Cersei wouldn't have had time to build all those crossbow weapons that now ring King's Landing. I don't see how Danerys will easily fly into KL now and take out the Red Keep with dragonfire.

I also get Sansa's desire to put the North first because it's her home, traditions and ancestry. She's also not wrong or conniving in the bigger picture, just focused on different concerns for the people she feels responsible for.  She also knows Cersei so she should be a little more accommodating to Danerys in her task of getting rid of that viper once and for all. I do think that spilling Jon's "secret" to Tyrion might come back to bite her once this is over. I don't think he wants the Iron Throne and won't be pressured into it either. I could see it driving him away from his family in the end.

Brienne and Jaime together makes sense and should have been what goes towards healing him from his effed up sister and family. But now he's also headed south. I hope it's to end Cersei but I don't see her easily letting him get close to her now that he's been to fight the Night King. I want Arya to kill Cersei in the end and I would love it if she does it wearing Jaime's face, if he has to die before the end of this series.

Jon should have at least patted Ghost on the head before leaving.

So much else. I'm still in for the end of this tale. It won't be happy or easy but that's OK with me.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Glaze Crazy

[ShellsandCheese]

Who sold Dany out? How did Euron know that she’d be coming back to Dragonstone right at that time? Was he waiting there for weeks? Also, what the hell is going on with the timeline on this show. 

[I-Kare]

I'm honestly surprised a lot of folks seemed to have viewed the Jaime/Brienne scene so differently than I did. I thought it was obvious that he was intentionally pushing her away so that she didn't try to go with him or follow him, so he could go do what he thinks he has to do: go kill Cersei. Everything up to that point pointed toward that being the reality of the scene, at least to me. 

[Oscirus]

My biggest thing about Sansa outing Jon is ok she has some trust with Tyrion, but how doesn't she know that Tyrion won't use this information to take out Jon since he's now a big threat to Dany. It's needlessly putting a target on Jon's back .

[AshleyN]

58 minutes ago, anamika said:

What exactly does Sansa want? For Tyrion/Varys to betray Dany and Jon on the Iron Throne? Was she not all about Northern independence? Suddenly King on the Iron Throne is okay, if it's Jon?

I hope this destroys Sansa's relationship with Jon once and for all.

I think it's more that Jon is one of the very few people in the world that Sansa actually trusts at this point. She (understandably) views pretty much everyone as a threat and because of that hates the idea of anyone having power over her, but she knows Jon would never hurt her. Plus, she'd have a much greater ability to personally influence him than any other king or queen. And I suppose having a Northerner (and this episode went out of its way to point out that regardless of his heritage, Jon is a Northerner at heart) on the Iron Throne is the next best thing to Northern independence, since you know he'd actually care about their interests.

That being said, goddamn girl, Peter Pettigrew was a better Secret Keeper than you!

[jeansheridan]

6 minutes ago, raven said:

So Sansa is glad she was raped and tortured so that she can...be a better liar, or something.   Be

I didn't read it that way. The Hound was harsh and direct as usual. Mentioning the rape was very in character. Her response was fair I felt. A "what if" isn't going to help her. What is done is done. She survived and is stronger for it. But not perfect by any means.

Tyrion's question to her was fair about why she disliked Dany. Sansa had no specific answer. None of them do. She makes them uneasy. She is "foreign". Too direct. Too certain. Eff that. Dany is driven and not a monster. But I am shocked she made such a bad entry to dangerous waters. Ug. That just hurt so much.

I am shocked Cercei didn't kill them all right then. No idea why she didn't. She doesn't need to look fair to an invading force.

[FemmyV]

26 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

She (understandably) views pretty much everyone as a threat and because of that hates the idea of anyone having power over her, but she knows Jon would never hurt her. Plus, she'd have a much greater ability to personally influence him than any other king or queen.

Sansa is being written as a total c***, and D and D will say how boss she is and get away with it because she doesn't have the power - at least for now - to force actions as any kind of follow through on her antipathy for Dany.

Edited May 6, 2019 by FemmyV