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S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

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22 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

That may quite possibly be one of the best things I’ve ever read.

21 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

welcome to the wonderful world of conspiracy theories!!!! How could a nobody like Oswald kill JFK? It must be a conspiracy!!!! Little David was a crack shot and Goliath needed someone to carry his shield for him. it was a miracle!!!! Qyburn is an evil genius, which means he's a genius. Plus dragons aren't that smart. 

So... you’re saying Urine actually had a guy with a big-ass crossbow sitting up on a grassy knoll...?

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16 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Urine is a ridiculous character.

Well, I'll never un-hear this.  That's his name now.  Urine.  Forever in my head.  I totally concur by the way.  

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On 5/7/2019 at 4:21 PM, Wendy said:

That Daenerys is the one that Sansa sees, the one who manipulates, the one who uses any means necessary to get what she wants and when she doesn't get it then she threatens. No wonder her advisors and even Jon seem to be scared of her. They have spent time with her, they know her, they know her reactions when she is angry, but they have no other way to deal with it than to pacify her, cuddle her and reassure her even when she is wrong. 

Jon as Warden of the North should have thought about his soldiers, they needed rest. He should have been the one bringing this concern up, when it was obvious he wouldn't say anything then Sansa had to do it, instead of considering it Daenerys again reacts with puss in her face and a tone of voice that let anyone know that she is the Queen and her voice is final. I think that is when Arya made up her mind about Daenerys. I figure previous to that Area was on the fence but that probably sealed the deal. 

Here's my problem with this:  I don't believe that Sansa raised the issue because she's the only one thinking of the soldiers.  I think she did it for exactly the same reasons she suddenly raised the food issue:  To score points against Dany and to cause dissension between Dany and the Northerners.

Sansa had enough warning about the huge army and two dragons that were coming to her, and the North's, aid to be able to have started gathering stores to help feed them.  If she needed to know what dragons ate, she could have sent a raven.  She didn't do any of this.  Why?  IMO, because she wanted it to be a bone of contention, she wanted to make Dany look bad.

Same thing here.  If Sansa were truly worried about the soldiers, she would have come to the meeting prepared.  I mean, anyone with a single brain cell would have known that the next question after Sansa says the soldiers would need rest, would be "How long?"  Why hadn't she discussed this with the "generals" (and who the heck are they anyway and why aren't they in the War Room?) before coming to the meeting?  She should have been ready with the answer and with all the details needed to show why that amount of time wasn't unreasonable and was necessary.  

To me, her failure to come prepared says that either she's too stupid to realize she should have had that information, or she doesn't really care about the soldiers but only the opportunity to make her rival for control of the North look bad.

And I don't think Jon is playing lapdog or just bending to Dany's wants.  In the scene where Dany is first confronting Jaime and she asks what the Warden of the North thinks, I have no doubt that she was expecting him to agree but he didn't.  He presented her with a practical reason why they should keep Jaime around.

In this case, I think he saw he saw quite clearly what was happening and what the goals were, especially on Sansa's part, and that if civil war broke out, it could only damage their ability to take on Cersei (and for some reason I don't know about, Sansa seemed to--this is before the lineage reveal--that the North was better off with Cersei on the throne than with Dany.  Got me.).  I think as an experienced fighter and leader of troops, Jon knew that even if they decided to head south right away, "right away" didn't mean "right away."  Dany, the dragons and the Unsullied on ships could head for Dragonstone fairly quickly--but it would still take them a goodly amount of time to get there, since the distance is about 2,500 miles (gotten from Quora).  Dany could get a headstart, get to Dragonstone and recoup their.

For a land-based army, since the distance between Winterfell and KL on the King's Road is about 1,500 and all on foot.  But armies don't march on their feet, they march, as the saying goes, on their stomachs. That means that the army would have to be provisioned before they start out.  That's going to take some time.  They would also need to ensure cloaks, boots, gear etc for everyone.  Again, takes time to gather.  Horses (how ever many would be involved) would need to be outfitted and re-shod, grain and the like would need to be taken in wagons (since it's the North in winter).  Weapons that were damaged would need to be fixed or replaced.  Arrows would have to be made.  And so on.

So Jon knew that the soldiers would get at least a few weeks of rest while the civilians got the provisions, gear, weaponry, wagons and the like together.  (Of course, the show makes it look virtually instantaneously that they're leaving for KL, but you have to read the invisible scene notation, "Time passed."  😊)  Instead of permitting WWIII to break out, he poured oil on the waters, knowing that the soldiers would get the rest they needed.

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On 5/8/2019 at 11:28 AM, taanja said:

That was years ago and she was punished by being blinded.

And yet she continued to break their rules. LMAO. She is as good as dead.

What the hell happened to Daario? he was a bad ass character and should have been by Dany's side this whole time. 

large.jpg

I know they changed actor but I prefer the original Daario.

Edited by Hiacios
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45 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I think as an experienced fighter and leader of troops, Jon knew that even if they decided to head south right away, "right away" didn't mean "right away."  Dany, the dragons and the Unsullied on ships could head for Dragonstone fairly quickly--but it would still take them a goodly amount of time to get there, since the distance is about 2,500 miles (gotten from Quora).  Dany could get a headstart, get to Dragonstone and recoup their.

For a land-based army, since the distance between Winterfell and KL on the King's Road is about 1,500 and all on foot.  But armies don't march on their feet, they march, as the saying goes, on their stomachs. That means that the army would have to be provisioned before they start out.  That's going to take some time.  They would also need to ensure cloaks, boots, gear etc for everyone.  Again, takes time to gather.  Horses (how ever many would be involved) would need to be outfitted and re-shod, grain and the like would need to be taken in wagons (since it's the North in winter).  Weapons that were damaged would need to be fixed or replaced.  Arrows would have to be made.  And so on.

I really don't think it was strategically a good idea for Dany to split her army in half and have her half outstrip the other half by hundreds of miles - since ships travel much faster than men on foot do. It weakens her forces and leaves them more vulnerable. The entire country between the North and KL hasn't been formally conquered by her; she doesn't know whether her land forces may run into local opposition they haven't been expecting and fall further behind, even if they manage to quash them and keep going...and that's before you put the unknown location of Euron's fleet in the equation.

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32 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

To me, her failure to come prepared says that either she's too stupid to realize she should have had that information, or she doesn't really care about the soldiers but only the opportunity to make her rival for control of the North look bad.

There is another option.  Sansa may have come to that meeting assuming they'd stay until the exhausted and wounded men had time to rest and heal, which is a reasonable, common sense expectation. She may have been shocked that Dany wanted to move the armies south so quickly and asked a common sense question.  She wouldn't have had to have been prepared with anything except her own observations.

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I think maybe we're overthinking the scene where Sansa points out that the soldiers need time to recuperate. The point of that exchange was to establish Dany as impatient and a little reckless (depending on your assessment of her reasoning), and not much more than that. 

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On 5/7/2019 at 8:01 PM, QuantumMechanic said:

Nope.  He has the right to the throne because he is the only surviving child of the firstborn child of the king.  If he were a woman he'd still have a right to the throne over Dany, even if Dany was a man.

He does not have the right to the throne over Dany as he is not a true Targaryen. 

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9 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

I think maybe we're overthinking the scene where Sansa points out that the soldiers need time to recuperate. The point of that exchange was to establish Dany as impatient and a little reckless (depending on your assessment of her reasoning), and not much more than that. 

No, it was just Sansa trying to challenge Dany for which she got put in her place. 

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4 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

No, it was just Sansa trying to challenge Dany for which she got put in her place. 

Well, she was challenging Dany with a common sense observation that everyone else in the room was probably already thinking. But we can agree to disagree.

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47 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Same thing here.  If Sansa were truly worried about the soldiers, she would have come to the meeting prepared.  I mean, anyone with a single brain cell would have known that the next question after Sansa says the soldiers would need rest, would be "How long?"  Why hadn't she discussed this with the "generals" (and who the heck are they anyway and why aren't they in the War Room?) before coming to the meeting?  She should have been ready with the answer and with all the details needed to show why that amount of time wasn't unreasonable and was necessary.   

To me, her failure to come prepared says that either she's too stupid to realize she should have had that information, or she doesn't really care about the soldiers but only the opportunity to make her rival for control of the North look bad.

The scene where they discuss the battle happens very shortly after the battle. Arya still has a big black eye. They're talking about the situation at this point. Tyrion says if they give the people in KL time to get hungry they'll cast Cersei aside. Jon says they'll surround the city etc.  If the GC attack they'll beat them in the field etc.

So the plan has literally just been made in this very moment. They're going to KL to surround the city etc. They may have to beat the Gold Company in the field. Sansa says the men are exhausted and need time to rest. Dany looks angry but calmly asks how long Sansa "suggests." Sansa says she can't say without talking to the officers. Which she has not done since there was nothing to talk to them about until seconds ago when the plan was made about which the officers will be asked. There's nothing stupid or ill-prepared about Sansa having not already asked officers since it's only in this moment there's something to ask them about.

Even if Sansa is trying to throw a spanner in the works here, she hasn't actually interfered with Dany's plans at all. Dany does not say "Yes, of course, we meant we'll go as soon as the soldiers are ready," which would be a completely normal thing to say as someone who has just this second planned a siege of a city. Instead she rejects the idea of the soldiers needing a rest as and just goes says Sansa is "wanting to postpone" now that "the time has come to reciprocate."

Sansa again brings up the practical nature of her impudent suggestion: It's Dany's armies too. Does she want to throw them into a war they're not strong enough to fight?

And Dany says yes, she does. Because the longer she leaves her enemies alone the stronger they get.

At this point whatever Sansa's actual motives the literal conversation is Sansa saying that the important thing is that armies just fought a battle and should rest before marching if they're going to face another one and Dany says the important thing is that her enemies gain power every second they're let alone.

Jon jumps in to tell Sansa that yes, they will honor their promise (iow, agreeing with Dany's interpretation of what she's really saying) and then tells Dany that what she commanded they would obey.

So Sansa's request is taken exactly as if it was just a way to break the North's promise to Dany. But Sansa's motivations don't change the fact that they did just fight a big battle and Dany's reaction implied she was willing to weaken herself in the long run in order to look strong in this moment--or that she was too impatient to keep track of important details.

If Jon thought that it was a given that they wouldn't really be leaving right away, he's wrong because the troops are indeed leaving "right away"--iow, with no significant time for a rest. Jon's dragon is still fragile enough that he's trying to offer the tiny help of not riding on him. People still have bruises on them from the battle when they leave. Yes, we're talking about a very speedy departure here. Even superficial injuries have not had time to heal.

16 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

He does not have the right to the throne over Dany as he is not a true Targaryen. 

Ho is Jon not a true Targaryen?

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1 hour ago, Hiacios said:

And yet she continued to break their rules. LMAO. She is as good as dead.

What the hell happened to Daario? he was a bad ass character and should have been by Dany's side this whole time. 

large.jpg

I know they changed actor but I prefer the original Daario.

Me, too.  He was definitely easy on the eyes and had a presence the second Daario did not.

58 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

I think maybe we're overthinking the scene where Sansa points out that the soldiers need time to recuperate. The point of that exchange was to establish Dany as impatient and a little reckless (depending on your assessment of her reasoning), and not much more than that. 

You, sir or madam, are approaching this with way too much common sense.  I salute you.  

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1 hour ago, Hiacios said:

He does not have the right to the throne over Dany as he is not a true Targaryen. 

he's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, the crown prince, he's first in line.

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On 5/5/2019 at 10:44 PM, Raachel2008 said:

And let’s not forget, Jon IS the heir. Maybe they just think it will be easier to *keep* the throne with a) the rightful heir, b) someone who can have children, c) the  King in the North who already has the North’s support.

Do we know if a resurrected person is still fertile?

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2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

The scene where they discuss the battle happens very shortly after the battle. Arya still has a big black eye. They're talking about the situation at this point. Tyrion says if they give the people in KL time to get hungry they'll cast Cersei aside. Jon says they'll surround the city etc.  If the GC attack they'll beat them in the field etc.

So the plan has literally just been made in this very moment. They're going to KL to surround the city etc. They may have to beat the Gold Company in the field. Sansa says the men are exhausted and need time to rest. Dany looks angry but calmly asks how long Sansa "suggests." Sansa says she can't say without talking to the officers. Which she has not done since there was nothing to talk to them about until seconds ago when the plan was made about which the officers will be asked. There's nothing stupid or ill-prepared about Sansa having not already asked officers since it's only in this moment there's something to ask them about.

Even if Sansa is trying to throw a spanner in the works here, she hasn't actually interfered with Dany's plans at all. Dany does not say "Yes, of course, we meant we'll go as soon as the soldiers are ready," which would be a completely normal thing to say as someone who has just this second planned a siege of a city. Instead she rejects the idea of the soldiers needing a rest as and just goes says Sansa is "wanting to postpone" now that "the time has come to reciprocate."

Sansa again brings up the practical nature of her impudent suggestion: It's Dany's armies too. Does she want to throw them into a war they're not strong enough to fight?

And Dany says yes, she does. Because the longer she leaves her enemies alone the stronger they get.

At this point whatever Sansa's actual motives the literal conversation is Sansa saying that the important thing is that armies just fought a battle and should rest before marching if they're going to face another one and Dany says the important thing is that her enemies gain power every second they're let alone.

Jon jumps in to tell Sansa that yes, they will honor their promise (iow, agreeing with Dany's interpretation of what she's really saying) and then tells Dany that what she commanded they would obey.

So Sansa's request is taken exactly as if it was just a way to break the North's promise to Dany. But Sansa's motivations don't change the fact that they did just fight a big battle and Dany's reaction implied she was willing to weaken herself in the long run in order to look strong in this moment--or that she was too impatient to keep track of important details.

If Jon thought that it was a given that they wouldn't really be leaving right away, he's wrong because the troops are indeed leaving "right away"--iow, with no significant time for a rest. Jon's dragon is still fragile enough that he's trying to offer the tiny help of not riding on him. People still have bruises on them from the battle when they leave. Yes, we're talking about a very speedy departure here. Even superficial injuries have not had time to heal.

Ho is Jon not a true Targaryen?

Was his mom related to Rhaegar? No.

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1 hour ago, MrWhyt said:

he's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, the crown prince, he's first in line.

I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that the custom of every Targaryen was to marry their sibling or 1st cousin to keep the blood line "pure." Not only is Jon not a true Targaryen but his father Rhaegar never married Lyanna Stark so Jon is also a bastard. 

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2 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

Not only is Jon not a true Targaryen but his father Rhaegar never married Lyanna Stark so Jon is also a bastard. 

Ok, trying to figure this out.  Have you seen Season 7?  Big finale?

Rhaeger got a quickie annulment and married Lyanna.  So not a bastard.

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23 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that the custom of every Targaryen was to marry their sibling or 1st cousin to keep the blood line "pure." Not only is Jon not a true Targaryen but his father Rhaegar never married Lyanna Stark so Jon is also a bastard. 

Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, Bran saw it. If we went by the incest makes it best route then non of Rhaegar's children would be "true" Targaryeans. The concept that only a Targ/Targ marriage produces heirs is never shown on the show.

edited: oops removed some book info

Edited by MrWhyt
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On 5/5/2019 at 10:27 PM, Traveller519 said:

Anyone refering to Arya as a Mary-Sue needs to take a long hard look at Euron Greyjoy... I wouldn't be surprised if that is somehow actually his child in Cersei's Womb

I detest the term Mary Sue. As soon as someone uses it I stop reading. It had some relevance back in the day--the '70s, when it was talking about Star Trek fanfiction--but when talking about actual media content, it is used solely to denigrate and undermine women characters. You know who is the biggest Mary Sue alive? James fucking Bond. No one ever talks about that. Nope. They just use the term to shit on characters like Arya, whose killing of the Night King was set up years ago.

On 5/5/2019 at 11:16 PM, MarySNJ said:

I really don’t understand Sansa’s antipathy. After ALL of what they faced, how could she doubt that Dany was trying to do the right thing for the whole of Westeros?  As much as I have sympathized with the character I don’t think what she’s doing in regard to Dany is reasonable. Okay, yes, the soldiers are battle weary, but the way she said she would have to ask the commanders sounded more like “never” to me and I would guess to Dany as well. Jon seemed to pick up on it as well which is why he made an executive decision to prepare the troops to go South. 

And Arya: “ She not one of us.” Yeesh. Nevertheless, Dany came to the aid of the North. 

That deeply disappointed me. I'm honestly disgusted with the writing of these great women characters. Literally every woman who is not a designated Cool Girl (Arya) is being killed off or outright murdered (Missandei) or written to strip them of their awesome strong and nuanced qualities and development. The hushed, pained conversations between Varys and Tyrion are fucking BULLSHIT. Fucking sexist, badly-written-shit-by-male-showrunners BULLSHIT. FUCK YOU, VARYS FOR YOUR SHIT OBSERVATIONS. When has Dany acted like a Mad Queen? Her father burnt people for SPORT. When has Dany done that? She burnt the Tarlys? Yes--she offered them a choice and she didn't have a fucking prison in which to hold them. THAT'S HOW WAR IS FOUGHT. It is worth pointing out that in the Dark Ages, common practice was for the entire losing side of a battle to be executed. Dany didn't do that. She can be ruthless (a good quality in a leader) but by nature she is kind, she tries to do the right thing and I am fucking LIVID at this "let's trash the character development of this great woman character." I'm LIVID. And I'm livid at the "let's regress Sansa to a backstabbing bitch" garbage. Sansa, by telling the secret she swore to keep secret, is destablizing the effort to take out Cersei. That makes no sense whatsoever. I fucking HATED this episode.

On 5/5/2019 at 11:18 PM, Growsonwalls said:

You know not for nothing but if anyone's been following the recent press about the British Royal Family the rumor is that the rift between William and Harry is that William has started to "act like a king" and wants

The rumor is that William is screwing around and the press got wind--and that William fed them made up stories denigrating Meghan to throw her under the bus and divert the press's attention. GROSS. Fuck William.

On 5/5/2019 at 11:52 PM, Hiacios said:

Then you forgot about the faceless men to which Arya broke their rules in killing people on her list.

I have never understood why they (Jaq'en, the Waif) came down so hard on Arya for killing Meryn. When Jaq'en said goodbye in Season 2, he specifically mentioned her list "a girl has many names...she could offer them all to the Red God." Why are you such a dick when Meryn Trant is one of the names off her list? 

On 5/6/2019 at 12:32 AM, quarks said:

HBO! SOME OF US ARE ONLY WATCHING THIS SHOW FOR THE DRAGONS! STOP KILLING THEM OFF!

(sobs)

*offers handkerchief* I love the dragons as well. I have only seen Viserion's murder the one time (as in, when I've rewatched the episode I've turned away), and same with Rhaegal's murder.  Please don't helpfully try to tell me they don't really exist.  That's not how Art works. In this universe, these are an endangered species. In my universe, that's a Thing. A Thing I take seriously. I'm a Wasp, we love animals more than people. I am devastated at what happened to Rhaegal. I just can't even. I want Euron ripped from limb to limb, a la Ramsay.

On 5/6/2019 at 6:40 AM, UNOSEZ said:

She also burned all those people at the Khalasar.. 

....Seriously? "All those people" were the Khals who just told her they were going to rape her until she died. If she didn't die, they were going to give her to their horses to be raped.

Seriously

This is what I dislike so much about internet discourse. People dig in their heels and these great nuanced characters are reduced to the Mets or the Bulls or whatever. Ride or die. Whatever your hated one does, it's terrible--there's no defending it. We've regressed to Season 1/2 hatred of Sansa, and there is similar dogmatic hatred of Dany. Fuck these writers. Fuck D/D.

On 5/6/2019 at 9:47 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

So, now freeing slaves is a BAD thing?  SMH.

She crucified a number a Masters equal to the number of innocent slave children they crucified.  That is justice, an eye for an eye. 

She married Hizdahr zo Loraq instead of killing him and the other Masters to try to form a peaceful alliance with them.   

She burned down the Khals tent to stop them from gang raping and killing her and to liberate the Khalsar from those monsters.    

It is amazing how people can spin good things Dany did into bad.  Cersei Lannisters Master of Propaganda couldn't do any better.   

Yep yep yep.

On 5/8/2019 at 3:48 PM, Absurda said:

Well, Lady Jane Gray was a distant cousin, I think, who was crowned ahead of the previous King's (Henry VIII) two daughters.  She was selected because they really didn't want the Catholic Mary I to rule.  Eventually Mary's forces and supporters fought to put her on the throne and behead Jane.

This was a complicated case. Mary and Elizabeth had been declared bastards but also declared in Henry's will as heirs, which was passed by Parliament and made law. Henry's successor, his only son Edward, was kind of a Protestant fanatic (in his own way almost as fanatical as his older half-sister Mary) so he was more than willing to overturn Henry's will and bypass his half-sisters in order to name Jane as heir, because Jane was almost as Protestant as he was.

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11 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Seriously? "All those people" were the Khals who just told her they were going to rape her until she died. If she didn't die, they were going to give her to their horses to be raped.

My point in that post was that It wasn't a stretch to see Dany might be capable of burning down the capital... Especially now after Missandei... I get it you have dragons.. U burn shit.. But her eyes have lit up watching fire.. And if your Dad is known for burning people alive..some of that will blow back on you... Of course Dany should protect herself.. And every time she used extreme violence there was a reason... But you can always find a reason... 

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2 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

The hushed, pained conversations between Varys and Tyrion are fucking BULLSHIT. Fucking sexist, badly-written-shit-by-male-showrunners BULLSHIT. FUCK YOU, VARYS FOR YOUR SHIT OBSERVATIONS. When has Dany acted like a Mad Queen? Her father burnt people for SPORT. When has Dany done that? She burnt the Tarlys? Yes--she offered them a choice and she didn't have a fucking prison in which to hold them. THAT'S HOW WAR IS FOUGHT. It is worth pointing out that in the Dark Ages, common practice was for the entire losing side of a battle to be executed. Dany didn't do that. She can be ruthless (a good quality in a leader) but by nature she is kind, she tries to do the right thing and I am fucking LIVID at this "let's trash the character development of this great woman character." I'm LIVID. And I'm livid at the "let's regress Sansa to a backstabbing bitch" garbage. Sansa, by telling the secret she swore to keep secret, is destablizing the effort to take out Cersei. That makes no sense whatsoever. I fucking HATED this episode.

My inner id feels the same way. I'm trying to stuff it down, just so don't feel as bad.

On the bolded part, I just watched the Troy show on Netflix, and at the end, the Greeks (Spartans) got inside the gates of Troy and murdered virtually every man, woman and child. Everyone knew this would happen if the city fell. And ancient Greece was more advanced than Westeros in many ways.

Edited by Andromeda · Reason: clarity
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2 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

That deeply disappointed me. I'm honestly disgusted with the writing of these great women characters. Literally every woman who is not a designated Cool Girl (Arya) is being killed off or outright murdered (Missandei) or written to strip them of their awesome strong and nuanced qualities and development. The hushed, pained conversations between Varys and Tyrion are fucking BULLSHIT. Fucking sexist, badly-written-shit-by-male-showrunners BULLSHIT. FUCK YOU, VARYS FOR YOUR SHIT OBSERVATIONS. When has Dany acted like a Mad Queen? Her father burnt people for SPORT. When has Dany done that? She burnt the Tarlys? Yes--she offered them a choice and she didn't have a fucking prison in which to hold them. THAT'S HOW WAR IS FOUGHT. It is worth pointing out that in the Dark Ages, common practice was for the entire losing side of a battle to be executed. Dany didn't do that. She can be ruthless (a good quality in a leader) but by nature she is kind, she tries to do the right thing and I am fucking LIVID at this "let's trash the character development of this great woman character." I'm LIVID. And I'm livid at the "let's regress Sansa to a backstabbing bitch" garbage. Sansa, by telling the secret she swore to keep secret, is destablizing the effort to take out Cersei. That makes no sense whatsoever. I fucking HATED this episode.

Even Arya was acting bizarrely: there's a lot of difference between her family-sticks-together chat with Jon in 8.01 and the positively Lannister-esque 'we can only trust us, never others' vibe she gave off this week. 

And then, having spoken so passionately about the importance of them sticking together, she just...left forever to complete her list?? Without apparently saying goodbye??? I...what???

Edited by Dame sans merci
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7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

At this point whatever Sansa's actual motives the literal conversation is Sansa saying that the important thing is that armies just fought a battle and should rest before marching if they're going to face another one and Dany says the important thing is that her enemies gain power every second they're let alone.

Jon jumps in to tell Sansa that ye s, they will honor their promise (iow, agreeing with Dany's interpretation of what she's really saying) and then tells Dany that what she commanded they would obey.

I see both sides of the argument. Sansa's concerns are legitimate. They just fought the undead and lost a lot of people in the process. Just fighting against humans can cause post traumatic stress.  They are not robots. The body and mind need to recover. Now, they move towards another battle. Jon being a yes man doesn't help. Yet, Dany was right. The longer she leaves Cersei; the stronger she gets. Except Cersei prepared while they fought the night king. She's already there.

I imagine Dany considered where she would be now had she ditched the talks with Cersei. Maybe attacked KL and taken the throne. Then headed to Winterfel for the NK. But she listened to the advices and talked to the wall that is Cersei. That cost her a great deal. And now it looks like they conspire against her.

Honestly, this all felt rushed and uncharacteristic of their nature. It was either to accommodate the shortened number of episodes or to push the showrunner's vision.

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Ouch.

"The Last of the Starks' is second lowest rated episode of #GameofThrones ever. No matter the scores of the final two episodes, this season will be the lowest-rated in series history."

D6JxHFKUYAAY7yA.jpg

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1 hour ago, Andromeda said:

Ouch.

"The Last of the Starks' is second lowest rated episode of #GameofThrones ever. No matter the scores of the final two episodes, this season will be the lowest-rated in series history."

D6JxHFKUYAAY7yA.jpg

seems obvious to me

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10 hours ago, Hiacios said:

And yet she continued to break their rules. LMAO. She is as good as dead.

What the hell happened to Daario? he was a bad ass character and should have been by Dany's side this whole time. 

large.jpg

I know they changed actor but I prefer the original Daario.

He is Commissioner Gordon of the territories on Essos that Dany conquered.

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4 hours ago, Dame sans merci said:

Even Arya was acting bizarrely: there's a lot of difference between her family-sticks-together chat with Jon in 8.01 and the positively Lannister-esque 'we can only trust us, never others' vibe she gave off this week. 

And then, having spoken so passionately about the importance of them sticking together, she just...left forever to complete her list?? Without apparently saying goodbye??? I...what???

I like Arya so much I am willing to overlook a lot of things, but.. yeah.  Inconsistent.  Also, too Cool Girl to attend post-battle celebrations (which IME, are just as much about honoring the fallen as celebrating the victory/survivors.)

Also feeling so bad for Gendry whose only two sexual encounters to this point have been
a) post-sex marriage proposal rejected and partner leaves the city for kamikaze mission
b) mid-sex forcible leeching of his genitalia for blood magic king-killing ritual.

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5 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Ouch.

"The Last of the Starks' is second lowest rated episode of #GameofThrones ever. No matter the scores of the final two episodes, this season will be the lowest-rated in series history."

D6JxHFKUYAAY7yA.jpg

I hope the trend on that line chart does not continue, or the Finale will be in the high 20s or low 30s. 

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1 hour ago, Drogo said:

I like Arya so much I am willing to overlook a lot of things, but.. yeah.  Inconsistent.  Also, too Cool Girl to attend post-battle celebrations (which IME, are just as much about honoring the fallen as celebrating the victory/survivors.)

Also feeling so bad for Gendry whose only two sexual encounters to this point have been
a) post-sex marriage proposal rejected and partner leaves the city for kamikaze mission
b) mid-sex forcible leeching of his genitalia for blood magic king-killing ritual.

You are forgetting the other 3 women he told Arya he had been with.   

Arya should have been at the party and flung food at Sansa the way she did at the last one.   Dany probably would have given her half her kingdom.   

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11 hours ago, operakatz said:

Do we know if a resurrected person is still fertile?

Valid question, but I don't think we're going to dig into that issue with two episodes to go.

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1 hour ago, Drogo said:

feeling so bad for Gendry whose only two sexual encounters to this point

Wait, wasn't there a scene in the pre-battle ep where Arya quizzes him about his number of sexual partners and he admits to having had three (and he is NOT counting the red woman.) I'm not saying Gendry wasn't hurt by Arya's refusal of his proposal, but I don't think his we-all-may-die-let's-fuck night with Arya is the only consensual sex he's ever had.

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

I like Arya so much I am willing to overlook a lot of things, but.. yeah.  Inconsistent.  Also, too Cool Girl to attend post-battle celebrations (which IME, are just as much about honoring the fallen as celebrating the victory/survivors.)

Eh, I cut Arya more slack than that.  I don't think she likes being the center of attention -- especially now that she's changed so much from being "Ned's little girl" which is how a lot of the Northern lords probably still think about her.  Jon accepting back-slaps about having ridden a dragon is one thing.  Arya being feted over her having used previously unknown ninja-warrior skills to kill the northern-boogy-man-made-flesh . . . that would have been a lot more awkward for everyone.  I don't blame her for sitting that one out.  She DID attend the funeral to honor their valiant dead.

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14 hours ago, Hiacios said:

And yet she continued to break their rules. LMAO. She is as good as dead.

What the hell happened to Daario? he was a bad ass character and should have been by Dany's side this whole time. 

large.jpg

I know they changed actor but I prefer the original Daario.

I think the Faceless Men killing Arya is a possibility.  But, I also think it is possible that Jaquen (if that is his real name) sought her out to train her for a hidden purpose. 

How did the Gold Cloak clowns capture a faceless man? 

I guess he became a Lannster soldier to be around Arya to pay the 3 death debt owed to the Red God?  But, then why did he offer to train her after she named his name, showing a lack of honor (his words) and getting him to break the rules by killing more than 3?

Also, why did he let her go and nod at her and slightly smile?  I think it is possible he never intended for her to really join, but wanted to train her.   

And, if the FM were out to get her, why isn't she dead already?  

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

You are forgetting the other 3 women he told Arya he had been with.   

Riiiight.  When a guy says 3, he means "just that woman who put the leeches on my peesh, and Palm-ela. (0)"

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8 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

 The hushed, pained conversations between Varys and Tyrion are fucking BULLSHIT. Fucking sexist, badly-written-shit-by-male-showrunners BULLSHIT. FUCK YOU, VARYS FOR YOUR SHIT OBSERVATIONS.

I think if you look at it not from a men vs women, the world is so sexist POV but rather just at who the characters are and their history...it makes perfect sense that Varys and Tyrion do not want to see 1 million innocent people in KL burned to death and the city destroyed...because Dany is upset her friend was murdered. Also how come Tyrion keeps getting lumped into that convo as a traitor? IIRC, he was pushing back on Varys and saying they should support Dany no?

Btw sorry if that comes off condescending, I dont mean it to be, and I 1,000% agree about the BS mary sue stuff which is basically just incel talk...I'm just saying that the reality of the characters is that Dany is a foreigner bent on slaughtering a million innocent people and destroying the biggest city in Westeros. It makes sense that people from Westeros would prefer another way, the issue is the writers arent good enough (or dont have enough episodes) to explore that very well.  

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4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think the Faceless Men killing Arya is a possibility.

I'm afraid this is going to happen too but only after Arya accomplishes the death of Cersei or something equally important (i hope). Have to remember that for the bad-ass Arya has become she's only a partially trained Faceless Man and that there is a whole crew of them out there who are probably even more deadly than her, or at least even better and disguise and assassination. 

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On 5/6/2019 at 7:35 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

If she had gone against him, told the truth and called him a liar that would have been a whole different ballgame. 

"Do I have to marry her?" and "There is no way in Seven Hells I am marrying that little cunt!" are not the same thing.   

More importantly, Cersei wouldn't have wanted Joffrey to marry a girl who was strong-headed enough to oppose him. She hated Margaery because of the influence she had over Joffrey and later Tommen. By not telling the truth, Sansa proved she was a meek little bird and that's why Cersei was fine with them marrying.

On 5/6/2019 at 8:21 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

What bothered me about Jaime/Brienne wasn't that they had sex (I'm all for Brienne getting some!) but the way that it happened. Jaime barges into her room and starts telling her she has to drink and then he proceeds to start taking off his various layers. Brienne sees he's having trouble with his shirt so she goes to help him and his next move is to try to take her shirt off. Like seriously, dude? THAT'S your move? Storm in, try to get her drunk, fling your clothes around the room, and expect sex? Maybe it's a good thing he was fucking his sister all this time because based on this scene, he has no game. I think Brienne deserves better than that.

Say what you will about Tormund, but I feel like he would have made more of an effort than that. I mean, it might have been super weird, but there would have been some conscious effort to woo her in his own wildling way.

Actually, I thought his "moves" were pretty similar to how we have seen him and Cersei get together, which just kinda proved that he has no idea how to really be with anyone but his sister.

On 5/6/2019 at 8:29 PM, Andromeda said:

If she was going to raise it as a concern, why didn't she do her homework and ask them before the meeting? It comes off just like the food issue, as Sansa thinking up something to spar with Dany over. Food and soldier health are both important issues, but Sansa is just using them to be contrary, which is a shame.

I was so thinking this during the scene. Who goes into a meeting unprepared? Sansa is there with Dany and commanders of the armies, yet she thinks she's the one who knows what's best for their armies. It would have been very different if she'd said, "actually, I talked to the maesters and if we wait a few more weeks then even the severly wounded can rejoin you to march on KL, your Grace."

On 5/7/2019 at 2:53 AM, BooBear said:

My problem with these scene is that it just wasn't Brianne. Have we ever seen her cry before? Even when Renly was killed? Backing up though I just thought the whole thing was out of some romance book. Her feeling insecure about being asked if she was a virgin, Jamie running after her. I also don't buy that SHE would ever buy Jamie showing any sexual attraction to her. After years and years of people making fun of her for her looks I think she wouldn't be capable of dealing with it in any normal way.  She might know Jamie was legit but wouldn't want her heart broken for the 1% chance that he was not on the level.  I might have bought it more they had sex pre fighting the dead. At least then, day after consequences were in doubt and Brianne could just enjoy herself. 

On 5/7/2019 at 3:25 AM, chrisvee said:

Huh and here I thought he was just nervous bc it meant so much to him

I thought he was nervous, too. Not necessarily because of how much it may or may not mean to him, but because he's never been with anyone but Cersei and he's no longer the proud and handsome knight with two good hands he used to be. Now he's got a stump and despite how freaking cold that thing must get up north, he still wears it instead of wrapping it up warmly because then everyone can really see he no longer has his right hand.

On 5/7/2019 at 6:06 PM, Constantinople said:

She's also trying to portray herself as good and Daenerys as bad. If Cersei publicly broke the rules of war it would look bad in front of lords and people who support her. Not that Cersei cares about them, but she's seen what the people can do if they riot in King's Landing.

Pretty sure beheading a hostage during parlay is breaking the rules...

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1 hour ago, Drogo said:

Riiiight.  When a guy says 3, he means "just that woman who put the leeches on my peesh, and Palm-ela. (0)"

If a similar conversation happened with Tormund.....

Arya: How many females have you been with??

Tormund: Are we talking about people or animals????

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I had tons of thoughts after watching this ep on Monday and even multiquoted lots of posts to respond to and then I got interrupted, life happened and suddenly there were over a dozen more pages when I checked in today. So, I'll just post some thoughts below instead.

For a moment, I thought Dany was pregnant during the celebrations. She wasn't drinking after the toasts, was watching Jon with his buddies and Sansa seemed to be side-eyeing. Turned out to (most likely) be  false alarm though. It was just her watching Jon being praised/loved and probably thinking how the truth about his parentage would ruin her dream of the iron throne.

Sansa was out of line (and not really needed, anyway) during the war meeting or whatever it's called. It was not her place to state the soldiers needed rest when she was in a room with those soldiers' commanders and the queen. And then to be all "uh, I don't know, lemme ask" when Dany questioned her rubbed me the wrong way. You don't go into a meeting unprepared.

Also, Dany has been doing this (fighting wars/conquering) for quite some time now and I think she may just have a tad more insight into her men's fitness than Sansa. Not to mention that Dany's men are Dothraki and Unsullied, both pretty much born and bred to fight. They can handle a walk south, especially if half of it is traveling by sailboat. Jon was there to speak for the northerners and he clearly had no objection to leaving again. Might be best to get them all to keep moving/fighting before they settle back into their old routines and will refuse to go to war again a few months on.

Arya apparently did a 180 from family/sticking together and leaving Winterfell with no plans to return without saying so much as goodbye. Odd.

Did not see Rhaegal's death coming! It was so sudden, I almost wondered if it was some weird TV thing where Dany was having a nightmare about losing another dragon and then we'd see her wake up. Alas, it was not so 😞 The weirder part was indeed that neither Dany nor her dragons (who have a pretty good survival instinct) apparently noticed that entire fleet. I was also expecting Drogon at the least to dracarys all the ships, if not Dany giving the command. Would have even settled for a sad lil' dracarys from Rhaegal as he fell, like a last attempt to protect his mother and sibling.

The number of ballistas on the ships and later KL was ridiculous! They'd probably need a decade to make that many, assuming they had enough materials and manpower (or money to buy them) which they clearly didn't after the carnage left by the war of five kings.

I like the idea that Dany's little group at the parlay was small because a) she does not want Cersei to know her actual numbers and b) because they all had to fit on Drogon to fly them over.

When Tyrion mentioned Cersei's pregnancy and we kept going back and forth between him on the ground and Cersei and her people on the walls, I wasn't thinking Missandei should jump while dragging Cersei with her; I kept thinking Euron would realize Tyrion knowing about the pregnancy meant the baby couldn't be his (and was most likely Jaime's) and he'd unceremoniously shove her off the wall, to her death...

I was hoping Missandei's "dracarys" would get Drogon's attention and he'd attack unexpectedly and kill them all in revenge for Missandei's death.

I think that was it. More might come to me later.

ETA:

I don't think it's all that strange for Dany not to "mingle" with her subjects. One, because they're her subjects, like when have you ever seen Cersei or Robert mingle with the peasants? Two, the northerners pretty much hate her, or at least they did when she first arrived which was only a couple of days ago. Third, she grew up as the little sister of the "beggar king", on the streets until they were taken in by Illyrio (and possibly before that in the house with the red door and lemon tree) and then she was married off to a "savage". She went from adolescent to young woman among the Dothraki, that's when she came into her own and how she learned to participate in society. It's pretty amazing she's turned out as well as she has.

Edited by Efzee
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I thought this was an interesting discussion of why Jon decided to reveal who he really is: Jon's Choice to become Aegon

Speaking of Arya:  I agree her leaving like that was weird, especially as she indicates it will be forever but I also was taken aback in Ep. 8.01, when she and Jon meet for the first time.  The first time she said they were family, no problems.  But the second time, when she was hugging him again at the end, I can't even exactly tell you why but I felt a threat in it.  It really took me aback.

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I just want Drogon to fly away from Dragonstone depressed and come back with the 10 baby dragons he probably hatched in Valyria a few seasons ago.

Truly I don't care whose ass ends up on the throne, I just want more dragons.

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13 hours ago, operakatz said:

Do we know if a resurrected person is still fertile?

Maybe his kid will be a wight or a white walker. :)

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20 hours ago, BitterApple said:

By the end of S8x04, Dany had lost the Dothraki, Unsullied, Jorah, Missandei, Viserion and Rhaegal: AND HER WAR WITH CERSEI HADN'T EVEN STARTED YET. All these losses were a direct result of helping Jon fight the Night King. To add insult to injury, every piece of advice her council has given her (and that she's followed) has turned out to be wrong. I'd be ready to burn Westeros to the ground at that point too.

Dany arrived in Westeros as the conqueror with a hereditary claim to the throne and a force, including dragons, that few if any living army could defeat.   Having her roll into Kings Landing and take the throne would have been too easy and easy has never been a part of GoT.  Characters get knocked to the ground.  Hard.   She's faced massive hurdles herself, but this is the toughest thing yet.  She's lost her advantage, her confidence in her advisors, and even whether she has the best claim.   That claim to the throne is literally the only thing of value she's had consistently had since her brother died.  Lay on top of that Jorah and Messandei dying, she's got every right to be off balance right now and wanting to unleash her internal dragon as her brother threatened to do (before it turned out he wasn't a dragon).   It doesn't mean she's crazy.  It means she's angry and without the people who in the past might have helped her temper that anger.

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2 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I'm afraid this is going to happen too but only after Arya accomplishes the death of Cersei or something equally important (i hope). Have to remember that for the bad-ass Arya has become she's only a partially trained Faceless Man and that there is a whole crew of them out there who are probably even more deadly than her, or at least even better and disguise and assassination. 

I just wonder why, if they want her dead, they haven't killed her already.  I'm not 100%, sure, but I lean towards thinking she is OK with the Faceless Men.  

My thought is either Jaqen had special plans for her or she paid her debt to the Red God by providing the Waif's face, in place of her own.  

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2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Arya should have been at the party and flung food at Sansa the way she did at the last one.   Dany probably would have given her half her kingdom.   

You win.  Fantastic.

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14 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I just wonder why, if they want her dead, they haven't killed her already.  I'm not 100%, sure, but I lean towards thinking she is OK with the Faceless Men.  

My thought is either Jaqen had special plans for her or she paid her debt to the Red God by providing the Waif's face, in place of her own.  

If Arya ends up dead via Faceless Man after saving literally all of humanity, then there's only one reason: because the showrunners have no idea who the fanbase is. It would be SIMPLY for shock value. They have done literally nothing with her Faceless Man powers since she left The Twins. If they wanted that to be the end of Arya, via Faceless Man, they should have been laying that groundwork somewhere. HAving it just pop up out of "Last Ten Minutes of Show, Let's Kill Arya Too" land would be idiotic, but sadly, I can't put it past them. For fuck's sake they had Jon basically kick his dog on the way out of Winterfell, they never really understood one of the most important relationships in the story. 

19 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Dany arrived in Westeros as the conqueror with a hereditary claim to the throne and a force, including dragons, that few if any living army could defeat.   Having her roll into Kings Landing and take the throne would have been too easy and easy has never been a part of GoT.  Characters get knocked to the ground.  Hard.   She's faced massive hurdles herself, but this is the toughest thing yet.  She's lost her advantage, her confidence in her advisors, and even whether she has the best claim.   That claim to the throne is literally the only thing of value she's had consistently had since her brother died.  Lay on top of that Jorah and Messandei dying, she's got every right to be off balance right now and wanting to unleash her internal dragon as her brother threatened to do (before it turned out he wasn't a dragon).   It doesn't mean she's crazy.  It means she's angry and without the people who in the past might have helped her temper that anger.

The show WASN'T about easy. The problem is that it's not doing the hard work to get to the hard outcomes. The show would have been better served if immediately after Loot Train attack, Dany took King's Landing, executed Cersei, and dealt with the Night King plus the political fall out for a season and a half. THAT's the hard way: kill your main villain with a season to go. The easy way is "defeat existential threat in 40 minutes" and "convluted path to evening the odds for no reason anyone can see." 

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1 hour ago, Efzee said:

The number of ballistas on the ships and later KL was ridiculous! They'd probably need a decade to make that many...

Just like how Urine rebuilt the Iron Fleet when there were no trees left on the Iron Islands.....

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1 minute ago, paigow said:

Just like how Urine rebuilt the Iron Fleet when there were no trees left on the Iron Islands.....

Maybe they were a consolation prize from the Golden Company.. sorry err, no elephants, but we did make you these exact replicas of your crazy man's machine with new and improved armor-piercing ammunition..

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51 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Is it me or is the Golden Company shithead like the dollar-store version of S1 Jaime?

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6 minutes ago, paigow said:

Just like how Urine rebuilt the Iron Fleet when there were no trees left on the Iron Islands.....

I'm sure they could find the wood elsewhere.  But the speed at which he built his fleet, presumably without much in the way of wealth to buy materials and pay for labor was absurd.  Where would they even have enough dry docks to build so many ships so quickly, even if they had the materials and labor.

His fleet being built was more magical than that Dany birthing those dragons.  

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4 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I thought this was an interesting discussion of why Jon decided to reveal who he really is: Jon's Choice to become Aegon

I really like the idea that Jon is subconsciously making choices that further his own 'hints of ambition' as the video says, to eventually be handed the throne. He knows he's handed Sansa a weapon to use against Dany if she ever gives Sansa an order she can't abide, like, say, demanding too much in taxes, or too many men for further war, or ordering Sansa to marry someone she doesn't want to to secure their alliance for her kingdom - which, as queen, she has a perfect right to order Sansa to do. He'd know he's enabled Sansa to say, "Fuck you, you're not the real queen!" and raise the banners of rebellion.

Though, come to think of it, my further thoughts might be better suited to the Spoilers and Spec thread.

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