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S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

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11 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

You know, when I was in the Marines I was a cook.(yeah yeah, a cook. My original MOS was intel and lets just say that I got screwed because I was female and had a Top Sgt who wanted me "in a more appropriate job for a women") And Im aging myself here but i served during the First Gulf War.

Those men were totally gung ho to go.  My mess hall supported the air field. We would get called in to give those men a meal before they headed to the airfield across the street. Many of those gung ho men were crying. Some were shaking. I can't write Sam off because he was cowering and crying when fighting the undead. No one knows how they will react in that situation. Even Marines get scared. Even marines cry.

If this was the last we have seen of Sam then he did a job well done in general.

I did mean to mention last week that I was a little mortified by many in this forum who were so contemptuous of Sam's terror. To paraphrase Bronn, men piss themselves when they think they are about to die, and there's no shame in it. Yes, he froze or ran sometimes. Other times he managed to kill the enemy. Was he a great fighter? No, but not many are. He acquitted himself a lot better than many would have in a similarly terrifying situation, however.

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29 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Pretty much from the start of the series I have always thought that Jon was way

I had thought that too and got realy sick of him in Frodo sort of way ie the constant pained looks about the undead and the living etc etc. Now of course they are reminding us he is a much better human being than Cersei, Dany, or Sansa which means they're about to kill him. God dammit, pulled me back in and now his death is gonna bother me.

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I can truly see Jon, when all is said & done, going North & hanging with the Wildlings & Ghost.  I think he foreshadowed it when he told Tormund that Ghost belongs in the north, not the south.  Thinking about the dire wolf/Stark connection.

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13 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I did mean to mention last week that I was a little mortified by many in this forum who were so contemptuous of Sam's terror. To paraphrase Bronn, men piss themselves when they think they are about to die, and there's no shame in it. Yes, he froze or ran sometimes. Other times he managed to kill the enemy. Was he a great fighter? No, but not many are. He acquitted himself a lot better than many would have in a similarly terrifying situation, however.

Back in Season 1, Theon asked Robb if he was afraid before going to war with the Lannisters  Rob said he must be and showed him his hand shaking.  Theon told him it was good, because it means he's not stupid.  

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19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

And you would feel grateful for this? Because this was described as being grateful. I think if your neighbor only agreed to help you put out the fire if you promised to give him your house you wouldn't think he was such a great guy.

She's demanding the entire North for herself. Winterfell is in the North. The North wants to be its own country. The North is not demanding they rule over Dany.

And Dany set the price really high because their lives were at stake. She could extort a high price. But the North isn't *happy* about that. They seem perfectly happy to send soldiers to help her fight her war, which is a pretty even trade. Plus, Dany isn't presenting this as paying her for anything. She thinks they should see her as their natural queen and they just don't. 

I think it was just a 3ER joke. Bran surfed around history and was like hey, that guy's got a nice chair.

This seems to suggest they're supposed to be want Dany as queen to save them for Cersei and that's not the situation. They don't want any foreign queen, with or without dragons. They already didn't want Cersei as queen.

But the name is everything. Without the name the North is still under their control and the next ruler won't be somebody's brother.

I really don't see how Gilly's being left out of the "we worked it out" because as you said, Gilly didn't work anything out. It just seems silly for Sam to feel like he has to say that Gilly was reading aloud when he heard this information.

I don't think Sansa's being shown as some great natural queen or anything--her feelings about Dany are obviously personal and a bit irrational. But she's shown a consistent base-level care for the people and her interests are aligned with hers. Also she doesn't at all seem to be angling to be Queen of the North or whatever. If she just wanted to rule there, as Tyrion said, she should let Jon go off with Dany and be KitT in name only or whatever.

Exactly. This is another thing that reflects Dany's problems as a ruler. She's not one with these people, she's just always seen them as rightfully her subjects. She doesn't have the same kind of relationship with her people that Jon does, whether or not Jon would be an actual good king. She gets scenes of (unfortunately mostly brown) people raising her up over their heads and bowing to her. Jon has guys giving him noogies.

I think Dany would be a better ruler than Jon.  But, Jon is the one the people would rather have an ale with.  

As for Sansa, she basically showed she could do the administrative part of a maester's job, though not the science and medicine.  In Season 1, Maester Lewin was handling the budget and provisions for the King's visit.  

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1 hour ago, enoughcats said:

Which of these five could pass as commoners.  Two lived there most of their lives (and one is one of the few surviving dwarves).  Arya is short, Greyworm is not packing and carries himself Marine-like all the time, and the Hound is disfigured, besides being really big for Westeros .

Or was this inspired by NCIS Los Angeles and related NCISes, when we are supposed to believe that Hetty could go undercover and just blend in with the masses?

Greyworm is black...I think that will out him more than his military bearing.  Besides didn't he sneak into another city and give slaves weapons?

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40 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:
17 hours ago, Drogo said:

If that's what I promised him after he'd started helping me, yes- as the KiTN did with Daenerys.

And you would feel grateful for this? Because this was described as being grateful. I think if your neighbor only agreed to help you put out the fire if you promised to give him your house you wouldn't think he was such a great guy.

17 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

Did Dany demand Winterfell for herself? I didn’t hear that part. 

She's demanding the entire North for herself. Winterfell is in the North. The North wants to be its own country. The North is not demanding they rule over Dany.

The moral of the house fire analogy is that Dany didn't have to help Jon with shit- she could have gone on with her original plan and still have 3 dragons to show for it. Like Cersei. The neighbor could have gotten into his car and left us (and our house) to burn. 

She's demanding what's hers. The King in the North bent the knee to her.  Following the bent knee, negotiations for the North are over. 

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Is it wrong to hope that Sam and Gilly are gone for good?

The coffee cup thing leaves a bad taste.   I don't believe it was accidental.   Even if it was, it only underscores how hasty and poorly conceived this season has been thus far.   

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50 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think the point is Dany takes revenge for 163 crucified children, after freeing hundreds of thousands of slaves and she is the Mad Queen, breaking the laws of Meereen.  

Arya kills Freys, Meryn Trant, Polliver, etc and she is a good guy getting justice.

I approve of what both of them did.  

If Dany killed the NK, there would be people here explaining why it was wrong and sign of madness.   

I agree mostly tho between the two I hold Dany to a higher standard as she's a contender for the throne... Bit my biggest stickimg point is still she killed people she thought may have done things Arya killed ppl she knew did things... Both of them have gotten a bit of a pass because the horrible things they've done have been to generally ppl we see as worse.. So they deserve it... As for the NK statement anyone who would fault Dany there is just someone who hates her... 

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7 hours ago, AnnaL said:

Missandie has no emotional investment of the people of Westerns, she doesn't know them and for all she has experienced they are not nice people. It is not hard for her to wish them all dead. Let's see if she would be in the same situation in the island of Nath and her people were the ones who would get roasted, would she have said Dracarys then? 

I don't think Missandie was saying "Torch all the people of King's Landing".  I think she was saying "Torch this b!tch Cersei and her piece of crap helpers (Qyburn, the Mountain, Euron, etc).  

I certainly don't buy this new narrative that there shouldn't be any war to root out Cersei because people might get hurt.  Funny time to suddenly bring that up after all this time.

The way they showed Rhaegel going down so easily, I don't see how Dany can even get Drogon close to King's Landing unless it's on a suicide mission.  I always thought that if you had a scorpion bolt, or whatever it's called, you still had to get lucky to score a mortal blow on a dragon because normally they would bounce off the scales.  But Rhaegel looked like a rag doll getting filled full of arrows.

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8 minutes ago, rmontro said:

The way they showed Rhaegel going down so easily, I don't see how Dany can even get Drogon close to King's Landing unless it's on a suicide mission.  I always thought that if you had a scorpion bolt, or whatever it's called, you still had to get lucky to score a mortal blow on a dragon because normally they would bounce off the scales.  But Rhaegel looked like a rag doll getting filled full of arrows.

Rhaegal was injured in the Battle of Winterfell and had tears in his wings- he also had no experience with the Qyburn machine or outmaneuvering its arrows (not that it would helped after that first shot.)

There's hope for him yet: Drogon has always been the strongest and smartest of her dragons and was in the wild for years while his brothers were in captivity. He's always been the leader and her #1, and he evaded the NK's spear like nothing.

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13 minutes ago, millennium said:

Is it wrong to hope that Sam and Gilly are gone for good?

The coffee cup thing leaves a bad taste.   I don't believe it was accidental.   Even if it was, it only underscores how hasty and poorly conceived this season has been thus far.   

You think they intended the coffee cup? Why would they do that?

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54 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

She gets scenes of (unfortunately mostly brown) people raising her up over their heads and bowing to her.

Its not fair to the character.. But my blood boiled every time that shot happened... Every Mhysa uttered was like nails on a board for me.. And then they filtered in more euro looking former slaves and I was mad about that... So maybe I just wasn't going to be happy with any of that... Tho nothing has given me more grief than the fact that the only black guy of note barely speaks and is a castrated walking weapon with no discernable personality until maybe this season... But as many of my kinfolk have done.. I press on cuz a  good TV show can almost make you forget about horrible representation.. So while I sympathize as best I can with the ladies who are unhappy that Sansa and Dany are sniping at each other or that Jon may " swoop in and take Dany's throne" which are legitimate gripes... You have Arya Sansa Brienne Tara.. Hell even cersei.. You had Cat and Lady Olenna and Margery... I've had nameless castrated child killers... A former slave boy who got beheaded for killing someobe before a trial ( cuz thats how its supposed to go)  A pirate and a shady merchant who got locked in his empty vault.. 

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Ive just realized how much this reminds me of Hastings. A big reason that Harold lost was because his soldiers had just fought the Norwegians at the Battle of Stamford Bridge up north. Williiam invaded down south and forced them to quickly move southward and fight another battle. The army did not have enough time to rest and recuperate. They lost. They had no option but to fight right away, they were being invaded.

Dany should have waited a little bit. She should have let the dragon and the army heal  a bit

Edited by JennyMominFL
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8 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Rhaegal was injured in the Battle of Winterfell and had tears in his wings- he also had no experience with the Qyburn machine or outmaneuvering its arrows (not that it would helped after that first shot.)

There's hope for him yet: Drogon has always been the strongest and smartest of her dragons and was in the wild for years while his brothers were in captivity. He's always been the leader and her #1, and he evaded the NK's spear like nothing.

Drogon is stronger than Rhaegal, but after seeing how the Giant Crossbow bolts tore Rhaegal apart, I don't think Drogon is safe from them.  The NK had one spear, Cersei has dozens that can be fire simultaneously 

Dany will need to be much more careful and and a lot smarter in how she deploys Drogon against Cersei and her Giant Crossobows.   

Of course, the element of surprise is gone, so hopefully Dany will be able to make some good halftime adjustments in the locker room.  

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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Then I don't understand why she didn't fly behind the ships and just roast them all.  Those arrow cannon things were cumbersome, at the front of the ships, and probably couldn't be easily turned all the way facing backwards. 

Like I said earlier I think she was reacting out of instinct and fear, this happened all of a suddenly unexpectedly. But you're right about the "scorpions" or ballistas. It's true they can be swung around but if they're at the bow of a ship  you can't turn them around and shoot through the ship itself. For that matter, from what we can see of their construction, they cannot be positioned to shoot directly upwards. I'm assuming Drogon can fly high enough to evade their reach then come straight down on top of them.

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It does seem to me that the natural end of this series would be for Jon and Daenerys to marry and rule together as co-regents.  Seems obvious to me that this is where things are headed since really, the only other candidates are Gendry, Sansa or Arya.  Arya definitely wouldn't want it.  Sansa would be terrible.  I guess I'm rooting for Gendry.

Funny you mention that because now that Dany has legitimized Gendry as Robert's legal heir that makes him heir to the Iron Throne as well.

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2 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Like I said earlier I think she was reacting out of instinct and fear, this happened all of a suddenly unexpectedly. But you're right about the "scorpions" or ballistas. It's true they can be swung around but if they're at the bow of a ship  you can't turn them around and shoot through the ship itself. For that matter, from what we can see of their construction, they cannot be positioned to shoot directly upwards. I'm assuming Drogon can fly high enough to evade their reach then come straight down on top of them.

I dont fault Dany for this. I think the dragon himself might have gotten the heck out of dodge. If not, I dont blame Dany for wanting to regroup and for not being prepared to risk her last dragon right then and there.

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Completely random but whenever I see the ginormous amount of candles burning everywhere during the feast I can't help thinking that Sansa had really made sure they were prepared for the Long Night LOL!

The coffee cup is hilarious and somewhere Downton Abbey is giggling.

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5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa want to feel safe from the monster who defiled her and kidnap her little brother. Is that hard to understand? But Sansa told Jon they didn't have enough men and wanted to get more but Jon was adamant they go right away.  So Jon did. This is Jon's strength and weakness. He wants to do the right thing despite the circumstances. It is what got him killed.

That's not exactly the way it went down.  Jon pointed out that they tried to get more and couldn't, including the Blackfish.  She says it's not enough men and he points out that it's all the men they have.  At that point, she just stands there and says nothing even though she knows there's an army on the way.  Jon would never have played it the way he did if he knew there was an army coming; he would have waited.  

Sansa was responsible ultimately for sending all those men who were fighting her cause to their deaths because, according to ST, she wanted to be the Hero of the Day and sweep in with the Vale army.  

I agree with Unosez:  it's pretty unforgiveable. 

(Also notice:  she got Jon to join her--he was tired of fighting--by playing the Rickon card.  "Ramsey has our brother.  He's going to hurt our brother" etc and so on.  But we see here that she had written Rickon off all the time; she never intended to get Rickon out because it wasn't possible.  She just forgot to mention that one itsy, bitsy fact to Jon when she was trying to pump him up to coming to Winterfell.)

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How many people died in the sack of Kings Landing? In Roberts Rebellion? To oust Aerys, Tywin had children slaughtered and Robert made him hand of the king. That’s acceptable though right? Robert  Baratheon hunted down all the Targaryens he could, and that’s ok right? Tywin destroys house Tarbeck viciously and thats ok right? It seems like in pursuit of a throne, or family power, it’s perfectly acceptable to do whatever it takes as long your name isn’t Daenerys Targaryen cause then you might be “ mad”.  

Dany has been quite rational in Westeros. Motives aside, she has listened to Tyrion every time except for the Tarleys. She has shown to temper her impulses. She put her quest on hold and came North, honoring her promise. In fact, she has sustained heavy losses and allies by listening to her advisors. So where does Varys get all this paranoia about Jon being a better ruler? What has she done in Westeros and the North except help, and lose everything? She loses her temper and she’s “ crazy”? She’s human. She’s up against a true paranoid, evil person and she’s held to a standard of war fare that doesn’t make sense. None of the men get this treatment. And they want Jon Snow on the throne? Season 1 Varys didn’t want Ned on the throne because he was too honorable , said in season 7 that Robert was a bad king because he didn’t want to be king. But now he wants Ned junior who doesn’t want to be King to be king? What am I watching?

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4 minutes ago, GraceK said:

How many people died in the sack of Kings Landing? In Roberts Rebellion? To oust Aerys, Tywin had children slaughtered and Robert made him hand of the king. That’s acceptable though right? Robert  Baratheon hunted down all the Targaryens he could, and that’s ok right? Tywin destroys house Tarbeck viciously and thats ok right? It seems like in pursuit of a throne, or family power, it’s perfectly acceptable to do whatever it takes as long your name isn’t Daenerys Targaryen cause then you might be “ mad”.  

I'm pretty sure that no one has said those things were OK. Neither Tywin Lannister or Robert Baratheon were worthy of the throne. Neither one are seen as good guys

Jon would also be a terrible king

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26 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Rhaegal was injured in the Battle of Winterfell and had tears in his wings- he also had no experience with the Qyburn machine or outmaneuvering its arrows (not that it would helped after that first shot.)

I know Rhaegel was injured, but he still had his scales.  He seemed extremely vulnerable to the scorpion bolts, every mark seemed to hit home.  I would have expected most of them to bounce harmlessly off his scales.  With the Night King, he probably had some supernatural aim to seek out the weak spots.

I'd also not that first shot was a sucker shot, no one saw it coming.

As for all the scorpions, it's true that we didn't see any of the weapons facing toward the rear of the ships, but that doesn't mean there weren't any.  

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27 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

You think they intended the coffee cup? Why would they do that?

Because it's too glaring an error to have been random, IMO.   Because ever since it became a meme I keep seeing/hearing Starbucks and Game of Thrones mentioned in the same breath.   Talk about product placement.

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We have to make some allowances for the sake of story, so I am willing to look away in this instance, but shooting a moving airborne target is EXTREMELY difficult. So much so that anti-aircraft guns, guided by radar, worked by filling the air with shrapnel from exploding shells rather than direct hits.

These dudes had neither radar, nor automatically fired exploding shells. The odds were very much against this kind of precision, gimballed base or no.

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Just now, millennium said:

Because it's too glaring an error to have been random, IMO.   Because ever since it became a meme I keep seeing/hearing Starbucks and Game of Thrones mentioned in the same breath.   Talk about product placement.

Targaryens drink piping hot dragon heated Starbucks coffee.  So should you.

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Just now, millennium said:

Because it's too glaring an error to have been random, IMO.   Because ever since it became a meme I keep seeing/hearing Starbucks and Game of Thrones mentioned in the same breath.   Talk about product placement.

I have a lot of friends who work in the business and several think it was deliberate,FWIW

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49 minutes ago, millennium said:

The coffee cup thing leaves a bad taste.   I don't believe it was accidental.   Even if it was, it only underscores how hasty and poorly conceived this season has been thus far.

It completely explains why Dany goes cray cray

WHERE IS MY STARBUCKS!

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1 minute ago, JennyMominFL said:

I have a lot of friends who work in the business and several think it was deliberate,FWIW

My first thought, was it must have been a mistake.  But, when you think about all the time and money they put into shooting and editing a major show like this, it is hard to believe they wouldn't catch something like that. 

I guess the counter argument would be that there are probably 1,000 possible mistakes that can make their way into an episode and this time they only caught 999.  

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3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

It completely explains why Dany goes cray cray

WHERE IS MY STARBUCKS!

I ordered it HOT.  What is this tepid, 210 degree swill?  

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5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

My first thought, was it must have been a mistake.  But, when you think about all the time and money they put into shooting and editing a major show like this, it is hard to believe they wouldn't catch something like that. 

I guess the counter argument would be that there are probably 1,000 possible mistakes that can make their way into an episode and this time they only caught 999.  

I've heard 2 things today.. One that it was deliberate.. I'm going to post the second thing a different friend said.

Throwing this out there as someone who has worked with editors for a great many years. The Starbucks cup is an obvious one but it's really not unusual. It's not like people don't care about continuity. Creators absolutely do their best with it & there's whole careers dedicated to it. However, when a show gets to the edit bay, continuity takes a back seat to takes with the best performances. My favorite example is the movie The Fugitive which is filled with continuity errors (keep an eye on Tommy Lee Jones's scarf next time you watch it) & by Harrison Ford's own admission it was a deeply trouble production with no one sure a good movie was in there. It was but they didn't find it until the edit bay. You cut based on the best performance. In other words, a great take with a Starbucks cup in the shot is better than a mediocre take after the Starbucks cup was moved out of frame

"But why didn't they roto it out or cover it up digitally?" Because it's a show made by people & every once in a while something slips through. In a show that rich, that dense with that many moving parts - it's very easy for me to see how no one noticed. I'm guessing there's probably a few more of these in previous seasons.

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1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I did mean to mention last week that I was a little mortified by many in this forum who were so contemptuous of Sam's terror. To paraphrase Bronn, men piss themselves when they think they are about to die, and there's no shame in it. Yes, he froze or ran sometimes. Other times he managed to kill the enemy. Was he a great fighter? No, but not many are. He acquitted himself a lot better than many would have in a similarly terrifying situation, however.

Just speaking for myself, my issue was not that he was afraid, but that he was whining and weak.  Those are two different things. I, for example, am useless in the kitchen.  I know that, so when there is food to be prepared I let the cooks in the family get down to business and I go and do what I am good at and stay out of the way.  I don't go in there trying to prove something messing up dishes and getting in their path as they are trying to navigate the space going between the prep area, refrigerator, stove, etc.  Nor do I stay in there chit chatting or whining about how I can't cook ....

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12 minutes ago, millennium said:

Because it's too glaring an error to have been random, IMO.   Because ever since it became a meme I keep seeing/hearing Starbucks and Game of Thrones mentioned in the same breath.   Talk about product placement.

Is coffee even a thing in Westeros?  I can't remember anyone every drinking it.  I recall people drinking ale with breakfast, but I don't remember any coffee.  

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23 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

The coffee cup is hilarious and somewhere Downton Abbey is giggling.

Why?

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7 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Just speaking for myself, my issue was not that he was afraid, but that he was whining and weak.  Those are two different things. I, for example, am useless in the kitchen.  I know that, so when there is food to be prepared I let the cooks in the family get down to business and I go and do what I am good at and stay out of the way.  I don't go in there trying to prove something messing up dishes and getting in their path as they are trying to navigate the space going between the prep area, refrigerator, stove, etc.  Nor do I stay in there chit chatting or whining about how I can't cook ....

 I guess I don't understand the contempt for normal expression of unmitigated terror, when faced with an absolutely terrifying situation. As to being weak, there is not a human being who has ever existed who could not be broken by exposure to combat. It crushes people.

A truly weak  coward would have stayed in The Citadel.

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Too many posts already to go back over lol.  Some really dumb stuff in this episode.  Dany riding high on her dragon with a perfect aerial view of Euron's fleet and is taken by surprise when Rhaegal gets shot out of the sky like a clay pigeon.  Ummm okay.  Dany dive bombing her dragon head on into Euron's fleet instead of strafing it from the side.  Does she know anything at all about battle tactics?  Cersei not killing Dany and Tyrion on the spot and taking her chances with the remaining dragon, now left to its own devices (they had the big dragon crossbows).  Or at least capturing Dany and holding her hostage.  And then the infamous Starbucks cup...well actually that was kind of great lol.  Oh well.

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9 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Why?

Because they were mocked and memed to kingdom come for this promo shot:

_76958562_twitter_downtonabbey.jpg

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15 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Why?

There is a famous promo shoot of DA in which a water bottle is present.

MissLucas beat me to it!

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18 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, they were not Jon's siblings.  They are his cousins and he should know Sansa could not be trusted with that information.

He's known they were his cousins for like a minute - he's known them as his siblings his whole life. That feeling doesn't change just because you get new information.

17 hours ago, rmontro said:

I had to admire Bran in that scene, he made Jon choose whether or not the family would be told.  He said "It's up to you".  He probably knew Sansa would run her mouth, so now Jon can't go back and blame Bran for encouraging him to tell (not that he would).  Still, smart of Bran to appear neutral.

I think Bran is neutral.

17 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Woof, so many problems this episode.

I was sad when Rhaegal died but not devastated and sobbing like I was with Viseryion. Why?

With Viseryon's death, the suspense was Hitchcock-ian. And itbuilt on the suspense from earlier episodes with qyburn building the weapon, with Drogon being wounded.

We saw the NK lift the spear. We saw Dany and others not seeing it.

Here it all happened so fast.

And yeah. What about all those boats, from a treeless island? The hell?

Why didn't Bran warn them?

Bran did say he spends most of his time in the past.

7 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Thank you! I’m so sick of everyone excusing everything Sansa does because by saying she’s suffered. Everyone on this show has suffered, especially the women.

There's a big difference between excuses and explanations. Yes, absolutely everyone has suffered. And their individual suffering has made them grow into different people than we saw at the beginning of the series. Their individual journeys have informed the way they behave and respond in the present. The beauty of this show, in my opinion, is that no one comes out clean - they're all shades of gray, some darker than others, some lighter. They reflect humanity, put to unimaginable tests.

6 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:


Out of all the gory deaths that have happened on this show, Rhaegal's was the first time I was like, "damn, that's bloody".

Oberyn's death holds that place of honor for me.

3 hours ago, LadyPenelope said:

I don’t think Jaime is heading off to enact bloody vengeance to protect Brienne. He didn’t seem to have much of a reaction to Bronn coming to kill them, until his face changed when Bronn said that obviously Cersei was going to die. Later he has the same reaction when Sansa talked about Cersei being executed. If they wanted him to be going off to kill Cersei, all they needed was to change Sansa’s last line to ‘Dany’s lost another dragon and Missandei and now Cersei might win!’ and have Jaime look grim and determined. But instead she said it as evidence that Cersei will definitely die, and Jaime looked stricken. I don’t think he’s off to fight for her, or to try to save her. Maybe he will kill her, if she is doing something terrible when he arrived. But I think he is simply doing exactly what Brienne said - going to die with her.

Maybe this is his version of Ned Stark taking charge and killing Lady, rather than letting (the Hound?) do it. He's going to put down the one he loves rather than let those who hate her do the deed. Yes, I know it doesn't quite track with knowing she's pregnant, on the other hand, he might just be ready for their seed, as it were, to be annihilated.

One observation on the keeping Jon's lineage secret - from Dany order/requesting Jon to keep it secret from his family and Jon requesting his family keep it secret - there is still one non-family person who knows, and who has the proof. And that's Samwell - who has no love for Dany. It would have come out in any case. As for Sansa, sometimes secrets are just too big and important to others to be kept quiet. It's pretty unfair, really, to ask anyone to keep that big of a secret.

I didn't miss not seeing a reaction scene - because we've already seen Sansa's reaction to it (telling Tyrion, who she seems to trust), and I'm fairly sure we'll see Arya's version of a reaction to it as well.

Edited by Clanstarling
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20 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

At least poor Ghost has a chance.

Could there be more dragons?

Maybe there's still an egg somewhere. It would be fun if Sansa got it. 😉 Now two girls could fight.. 'No, my dragon is better!' 😉 Just an amusing thought...

20 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't completely get what's going on with Sansa (leaving aside any Doylist interpretations about them hating the women characters). Because it seems like she's having a genuine emotional reaction to Dany that's pretty deep and maybe illogical. Like when she said their men didn't fare well in the capitol I thought she really did see this happening again. Ironically Sansa again spilled the beans on something, but this time she thought it was the smarter thing to do, not the honorable. She made the opposite choice.

I think she really cares for Jon and she's scared very much about him being killed in the South. Even now that she knows his her cousin not brother. She doesn't want to lose her family. And she's predicting, once again, that some lady is not fit for rulling... Also I think Sansa is scared about what happen after the war. If Cersei somehow win, she's fucked and the North with her (espacially now when Jon took all the remaining North army), if Dany wins, she's fucked and the North will never be independent and you can tell Dany will do whatever she can do get rid of Sansa as a person in charge in Winterfell and propably give that power to someone else who of curse would be gratefull for that forever.

20 hours ago, Leroux said:

Why would the Starks have to live a lie just so Daenerys can claim the throne?  Why does Daenerys wish for the throne are more important that Jon's family? Jon doesn't even want the throne but this doesn't mean that he has to live the rest of his life pretending to be a bastard just so Daenerys gets the throne. If Daenerys really loves Jon she would never ask this of him. 

It is easy really, Daenerys lets the whole kingdom know that Jon is the rightful heir and they are getting married and ruling together. Jon rules the North and she rules the South. t would make everybody happy. She wants that throne more than she wants Jon, She is asking him to lie and deny his identity just so she can seat in that damned throne.  

She was really pathetic and desparate in that scene. I wish Jon wouldn't fall for it. He at least defended his family... a little bit.

20 hours ago, Jenesis said:

Very quick comment right now.

Am I going crazy? Why does Dany and everyone act like her helping against the NK is some favor? If she wants people to bow, she needs to protect them.

Oh I like You already.

Sansa also pointed that out a little, when she told her, that the soldiers who need some rest are alse her people not only Sansa's or Jon's.

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1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Funny you mention that because now that Dany has legitimized Gendry as Robert's legal heir that makes him heir to the Iron Throne as well.

Maybe Dany should marry Gendry to unite the 7 Kingdoms. It'll be the old ruling family marrying the new one. Lol

Edited by Sakura12
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13 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Also, I’m going to have to side with Jon. A dire wolf ISN’T a dog. It’s a wild animal. Staying in Winterfell is what makes us feel good, but Ghost belongs in the Real North where he can run free and sire albino puppies with a dire wolf that isn’t his sister. And as Tormund said about this being goodbye... you never know. We’ve still got nearly three hours left in this story and Tormund isn’t leaving until the winter storms have passed.

But Ghost whimpered! All we wanted was a scritch behind his poor half destroyed ear before Jon rode  off.

Edited by chrisvee · Reason: Typo
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1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

Its not fair to the character.. But my blood boiled every time that shot happened... Every Mhysa uttered was like nails on a board for me.. And then they filtered in more euro looking former slaves and I was mad about that... So maybe I just wasn't going to be happy with any of that... Tho nothing has given me more grief than the fact that the only black guy of note barely speaks and is a castrated walking weapon with no discernable personality until maybe this season... But as many of my kinfolk have done.. I press on cuz a  good TV show can almost make you forget about horrible representation.. So while I sympathize as best I can with the ladies who are unhappy that Sansa and Dany are sniping at each other or that Jon may " swoop in and take Dany's throne" which are legitimate gripes... You have Arya Sansa Brienne Tara.. Hell even cersei.. You had Cat and Lady Olenna and Margery... I've had nameless castrated child killers... A former slave boy who got beheaded for killing someobe before a trial ( cuz thats how its supposed to go)  A pirate and a shady merchant who got locked in his empty vault.. 

This.  I am a little different than most of the posters here. I don't even know what season I started watching, but it was never a full season (mostly Youtube clips)  and it was within the last two, when Olenna? (sp) got killed. Therefore I don't have the attachment to most characters that many of you do so I can only be mildly irritated by what I've seen in a very short time.   Here goes...

I am no stranger to television that does not represent all people, nor am I one that feels like there always has to be a "happy" ending.  Whether via original run or re runs I've sat through and enjoyed many television shows ( Andy Griffith, Leave it to Beaver, Maude, One Day at a time, Family, most of LA Law, etc) where there was no diversity or any diversity was a person in a servile role, or where the "good" main white character was doing something to show that they were a great person or accepting of the token minority character who only lasted one episode.  Therefore having heard of Game of Thrones but not being really interested it was o.k. for me to ignore the rumblings of people who felt that the writing on the show was problematic...once they even introduced people of color that is.   I don't know how to link, but there is an article that I ran across in "Flare" that perfectly explains my feelings about this episode.  Once it filled me in on some of the background of the show, I am even more appalled. 

As a survivor, I really took exception to Sansa seeming to indicate that the brutal treatment she had received was responsible for making her a "stronger" person and that she was grateful  for it.  The idea that you have to suffer, especially sexually, to find your strength and purpose is offensive...let alone be grateful for that suffering. 

Although I enjoy the character of Dany, I can't help but be annoyed at how she is portrayed as the great white liberator and protector...and how the Dothraki and Unsullied have been regaled to killing machines and savages.   They only made Missandei smart and good with languages to distract from some of the criticism that they were getting, but when all was said and done they returned her to chains and only used her as a plot device for Dany.....and to make Greyworm  a "savage" no doubt seeking revenge.  The one black man on the show was given the name of vermin and emasculated....but he only lives to serve his "queen."  Ev

The writing for Sansa, Dany, Cersi and Missandei has been terrible. I am sure that is true of most women on this show, but since I have been watching those are the only ones that I know of. I am not as eloquent as the person who wrote the Flare piece, nor do I have all of the background on the characters, but from the little I do know it is not hard to surmise that his has turned into a  s show....women are portrayed as not being able to control their emotions and being driven by either lust, or petty jealousy. 

Even Brienne was not spared.  After making her a strong warrior they reduced her to a sad love scene where the man did not even celebrate her body or that she was willing to share it with him for the first time, to a desperate pathetic mess BEGGING a man not to leave her for another woman.....not to mention they gave her the most flawed man in the first place who was sleeping with his sister instead of someone who wanted her as she was and has always been somewhat honorable.  Then instead of using the airtime to show Jaimie worshipping their interaction, they chose to spend it on Tyrion shaming her for being a virgin AND time for him and Jaimie to JOKE about his having sex with her!  Unbelievable. 

It took me all night to process, but I realized that I have more issues than just how POC have been treated on this show.  Personally, for this ( the destruction of the Dothraki, Greyworm being the only Unsullied to have a name other than White Rat) I would have preferred if they would have just ignored them all together.

I find it hard to believe that Greyworm, nor Dany would never have given Missandei any training at all on how to defend herself so that she would have gone down fighting.  To have her die in chains was such a slap in the face ...and such a pointless image...not to mention being beheaded. 

Sadly I also realize that this will be a career starter for both Jacob Anderson and Nathlie Emmanuel and I can't fault them for being a part of something that hopefully will be both financially and professionally rewarding. When you see how many parts are not there for POC in shows or movies that are this successful you feel bad that they have to be grateful for the chance to portray the characters created and spout the nonsense that comes out of the writers heads...never has a scene offended more than Greyworm wanting to keep his vermin name because he is thankful for Dany freeing him.....well maybe another strong women going out in a stupid way for shock value....Lyanna....

Edited by catrice2
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In Jon and Dany's place, I would have claimed sovereignty, set up new capital and begin collecting taxes and support from the kingdoms they already had in their control. The North, the Vale, the Iron Islands, the Westerlands, Dorne, the Stormlands. Go secure the Reach and River Run, send Dany on a goodwill tour and let Cersie continue to pay for an army she's not using.  

But that's not cinematic.

Edited by MrsR
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Brienne and Jamie already had a deeply intimate and frankly beautiful scene two episodes ago that established their deep friendship and platonic love for each other. It just did not make sense to me that they needed to have sex. This show in its last season continues to rewrite female characters as stock stereotypes - now Brienne, a KNIGHT FOR GOD SAKE, is a mewling baby crying after the man who left her after deflowering her? 

God, end it already. 

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8 minutes ago, MrsR said:

In Jon and Dany's place, I would have claimed sovereignty, set up new capital and begin collecting taxes and support from the kingdoms they already had in their control. The North, the Vale, the Iron Islands, the Westerlands, Dorne. Go secure the Reach and River Run, send Dany on a goodwill tour and let Cersie continue to pay for an army she's not using.  

But that's not cinematic.

Exactly,  if the only place Cersei can hold is King’s Landing she’s not the true ruler.  Dany should focus on allying with those of the houses that are left and getting the Iron Bank to support her instead of Cersei.  Let’s say some conquerer took over all of the U.S. but didn’t capture Washington DC.   If the people in Washington aren’t actually running things in the rest of the country they’ve lost even though they hold the capital.  King’s Landing is one place.   Isolate Cersei there while consolidating alliances elsewhere surrounding her.  The Iron Throne is a powerful symbol but simply sitting in it is not enough to rule.  Joffrey sat on the Iron Throne but Tywin was the real power running things.  

Dany needs to focus on practical power rather than symbolic power.  Make her own capital and cut Cersei out by stripping her of any allies, cut off her access to supplies and increase her financial instability through gaining support of the Iron Bank.

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1 hour ago, JennyMominFL said:

I'm pretty sure that no one has said those things were OK. Neither Tywin Lannister or Robert Baratheon were worthy of the throne. Neither one are seen as good guys

Jon would also be a terrible king

Man folks are really reaching for every horrible thing done to compare to Dany to make her look favorable.. When what I feel the majority of posters here are essentially saying is... And what I'm definitely saying is... She's supposed to be different.. She said she wanted to be different.. Part of the reason ppl support her is because of those claims.. And if in the end she uses her dragon as a WMD.. And forces ppl to live by what she says is right (which as a real person in 2019 I agree with)  on pain of death.. If her detractors have to be so scared of retribution for even speaking out against her.. because her first impulse to all perceived slights and threats is violence.. Then she's not much better than anyone who's come before her.. And that would be a real tragedy in my estimation... 

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1 hour ago, millennium said:

Because it's too glaring an error to have been random, IMO.   Because ever since it became a meme I keep seeing/hearing Starbucks and Game of Thrones mentioned in the same breath.   Talk about product placement.

Also I think it keeps Game of Thrones the show trending for things other than the bad writing. 

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59 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Maybe Dany should marry Gendry to unite the 7 Kingdoms. It'll be the old ruling family marrying the new one. Lol

I think he and Dany are like 4th cousins or something  for targaryens that's like a stranger

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