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S14.E20: Moriah

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11 hours ago, SueB said:

Fair question. I can only answer for myself, but it’s something along the lines — even if he was a hands-off God in the Supernatural universe, he was Team Humanity, Team Sam & Dean, and Team Free Will.  So God represented the show’s ideals of good vs evil. And yes, they pretty much were in line with the ‘source’ lore (i.e. the Abrahmic perspective on God).  So, even if all the Angels were misbehaving, the most powerful entity (God) supported Sam & Dean’s understanding of right and wrong.  Dean even said to Amara ‘The Golden Rule, brother’s keeper... it IS his universe.’

Now?  What universe is it?  The ideals Sam & Dean embody are just plot points?  And they have suffered their whole life not because they were doing the right thing but because it amused Chuck?  Pretty shitty statement on the natural order and the concepts of ‘right and wrong’  

Ultimately, I reject what Chuck is currently selling.  I’ll content myself that his original concepts of souls, humanity, free will, and saving people were the right concepts to establish in the world’s ethos — even if the original ‘author’ has somehow abandoned these ideals.  

But it still pisses me off.  If ‘God is evil’ was the show’s original premise, then investing in the characters for 14 years is done with eyes wide open.  Instead, we’ve had every indication that while ‘absentee’, God was basically the good guy.  And now I feel hoodwinked that I’ve actually been supporting a show that I’m not morally comfortable with.  I can’t support the show with the same level of attachment because it’s gone to a place I’m not willing to follow.  

Ultimately, it’s their show.  This is the story they want to tell.  So I’ll take it for what it is, enjoy what I can.  But if this plot twist sticks permanently, it makes me sad. 

And this was my point in my next post. Dabb has changed the nature of the show, and it's not a good change. Frankly, I'm not sure he is even aware of the implications, and if he is, then I have to question his intentions.

I am honestly hoping for a big 'gotcha' in the opening five minutes in which he (Chuck/God) takes it all back, or it's revealed he wasn't really Chuck but the Trickster, and they immediately kill him once and for all.

Otherwise, I don't want to watch the show any more, because there can be no emotional investment and I care too much about the Winchesters to accept this. It's worse than their whole lives being for nothing - their whole lives were not even real. No thank you.

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15 hours ago, SueB said:

Fair question. I can only answer for myself, but it’s something along the lines — even if he was a hands-off God in the Supernatural universe, he was Team Humanity, Team Sam & Dean, and Team Free Will.  So God represented the show’s ideals of good vs evil. And yes, they pretty much were in line with the ‘source’ lore (i.e. the Abrahmic perspective on God).  So, even if all the Angels were misbehaving, the most powerful entity (God) supported Sam & Dean’s understanding of right and wrong.  Dean even said to Amara ‘The Golden Rule, brother’s keeper... it IS his universe.’

Now?  What universe is it?  The ideals Sam & Dean embody are just plot points?  And they have suffered their whole life not because they were doing the right thing but because it amused Chuck?  Pretty shitty statement on the natural order and the concepts of ‘right and wrong’  

Ultimately, I reject what Chuck is currently selling.  I’ll content myself that his original concepts of souls, humanity, free will, and saving people were the right concepts to establish in the world’s ethos — even if the original ‘author’ has somehow abandoned these ideals.  

But it still pisses me off.  If ‘God is evil’ was the show’s original premise, then investing in the characters for 14 years is done with eyes wide open.  Instead, we’ve had every indication that while ‘absentee’, God was basically the good guy.  And now I feel hoodwinked that I’ve actually been supporting a show that I’m not morally comfortable with.  I can’t support the show with the same level of attachment because it’s gone to a place I’m not willing to follow.  

Ultimately, it’s their show.  This is the story they want to tell.  So I’ll take it for what it is, enjoy what I can.  But if this plot twist sticks permanently, it makes me sad. 

This. So much all of this. Exactly! 

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5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And this was my point in my next post. Dabb has changed the nature of the show, and it's not a good change. Frankly, I'm not sure he is even aware of the implications, and if he is, then I have to question his intentions.

I also have to wonder if he realizes what he's done to those viewers who actually watch the show, consider it, and follow the story with its ramifications. In other words - not the young twitter crowd that he's been writing for. And, like you also say, if he does realize this in its full ramifications, then I also question his intentions. This version of God, of the Winchester's story that Dabb has shown us in this episode is NOT what I have been watching for fourteen seasons. How does he think he can just turn everything upside down and that fans are just going to sit back and say OK, that's cool? I reiterate from my many "Dabb" posts - the man is an asshole.

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5 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I also have to wonder if he realizes what he's done to those viewers who actually watch the show, consider it, and follow the story with its ramifications. In other words - not the young twitter crowd that he's been writing for. And, like you also say, if he does realize this in its full ramifications, then I also question his intentions. This version of God, of the Winchester's story that Dabb has shown us in this episode is NOT what I have been watching for fourteen seasons. How does he think he can just turn everything upside down and that fans are just going to sit back and say OK, that's cool? I reiterate from my many "Dabb" posts - the man is an asshole.

Wasn't it Dabb who wanted to kill Chuck/God in the season 11 finale but didn't because the network put a stop to it? I guess if he couldn't kill him making him evil was the next best thing.

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22 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

What has that got to do with it though.

My point was that Jack and the circumstances of his existence are all part of Chuck's story - and it's all so lame, because it means literally nothing the Winchesters (or anyone else) does, matters. They can kill all the monsters again, and Chuck can snap his fingers again, or not. It is terrible, terrible story telling because there is literally nothing that can't be undone, or redone. There are no stakes. So why should we care about any of it? I love a good Dean-whumping as much as anyone, but there has to be some kind of risk and consequence, or what's the damn point?

Well... now they know who the real enemy is. It has reframed a lot of the former big bads more sympathetically since everybody was just playing their part as written except for the Winchesters, especially Dean, and Winchester adjacent characters in relationships with them.

It will depend on the writing. If all next season turns out to be is more then yes... men.

And personally I don't think Chuck unwrapped everything they did. He's still the biblical God. I thought he let the souls out of Hell per Cas which is a Revelations thing... End of Days... They only baddies from their pasts were evil spirits who would have presumably been in hell I guess and were not yet turned into demons (?).

If they go after Chuck with the idea of defeating him, locking him away in the Empty or with the MoC and replacing him with Amara or a triumvirate or Amara, crazyblackgoo and Jack... whatever... The characters turning on the creator.  

I tend to think they will go with the latter. Death saying, "We need to talk" indicates that Death is not going to let the World end without a fight. That is not the Winchester way either.

I would really hate a final season of nothing but endless more in darkness. Talk about giving up.

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I liked season 11 God and original recipe Chuck, so as happy as I am to see Rob Benedict, this makes me uncomfortable. Loved Dean continually being Team Free Will and screwing up everyone's plans for him once again. Sam shooting God was awesome and painful as he's had faith more than other characters have. I really enjoyed Jared's delivery of "Are you enjoying this?" for some reason.  I liked that they had the president admit to making a demon deal with Crowley. I liked seeing Bloody Mary and the Woman in White rise back. My first season nostalgia kicked in. But the last times I had first season nostalgia they killed off Missouri and Sarah and the Wendigo guy, so I don't trust nostalgia. 

I will accept God as a villain if it means we get a huge alliance of everyone the Winchesters have ever saved helping them. I think we're owed that after 15 years of viewership. 

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21 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

All facts that did happen, and I do agree that this is what they were going for. I just don't think they pulled it off well so it didn't really lead to the finale as dramatically as they might have been going for, and as much as Sam or Cas could have.

While I do agree it felt the realest because they spent more focus there and it was allowed to grow more organically (especially when compared to Castiel & Jack), the tell all throughout was never showing us the same thing with regards to building Dean and Jack's relationship. Even when the focus should have been on Deans feelings of loss when Jack died, they decided it was the best opportunity to use the "then" segment and Sam & Cas's conversation to bring back up how shitty Dean had been to Jack. He hadn't been against him for months by that point, and there were plenty of poignant, positive memories they could have used, but apparently painting Dean in a bad light was more important. They made it about guilt and not the connection between the characters. Because of this and other moments like this it never really felt like tptb had let go of how Dean had treated Jack at the beginning, regardless of how much we had seen otherwise. Therefore it really wasn't a stretch and was presented as completely (and the only) reasonable option when it came to killing him, and of course Dean would step up.

It seems to me there was a conflicting decision about where to place the tension: was it going to come from the difficulty of the situation and Dean's relationship with Jack and how hard it was for him to pick up the gun, or was it going to come from the fact that the audience could actually completely believe that Dean could pull the trigger. imo they sacrificed the first for the second, and that is why the father/son comparison story doesn't work for me (besides the fact that I was already kinda bitter about Dean getting landed with another charge like always, when Sam and Cas were so keen for it & not given as many chances to follow through).

They expect us to remember the backstory in other words between seasons 12-14 especially in order to understand the pathos of the moment. How audacious of them? This was not too arduous a task for me. I actually enjoyed Dean's emotional journey in these seasons with his mommy and son. I also got that Jack had three dads and developed a different type of bonding with each. However Dean became the primary human father that Jack looked up to as his role model to be a man and a hero. And Dean was given the poignant daddy bonding moments. 

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13 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I would have thought that the earlier version of Chuck in Season 11, for example in "All in the Family", would be equally problematic to many.  A God who admits that he could not fix his creation, and so stopped trying? Dean very rightly called him out on that. Or as the Nobel Prize winning writer Elie Wiesel put it, in response to a similar premise put forth by author Harold Kushner (that God cared about the suffering of humanity but could not do anything about it): "If that's who God is then He should resign and let someone more competent take over."

But my point is not which version of God we should see on the show (no way do I want to get into that discussion), it's that it was just a very, very bad idea for the show to bring God onto the show as a character, rather than leave him as a mysterious and unknowable figure. Not that who God is should never be discussed on a TV show, but not on this show and definitely, definitely not by these writers. These writers? Trying to be clever about writing God as a character? No thanks. Chuck the prophet was a wonderful and original character, and I thought the way he was written worked well for the show. But Chuck as God was a big mistake.

I agree. As soon as Chuck became God it was problematic, especially when he ignores so much but shows up for a middle school play???!!!.  Especially when he sits out most of Amara's deadly antics which were all a cry out to him... and I still maintain he was the misogynist villain in that storyline. Especially when he tells the one guy who already believes everything that goes wrong is his fault... hey everything is now your responsibility so it really is all tour fault. 

God being evil was subtext for years. Now it is text. 

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Its just really hard to get the "God is evil" show, and not hear "the show runners are evil" as the subtext. 

Edited by tennisgurl
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21 hours ago, SueB said:

 So, even if all the Angels were misbehaving, the most powerful entity (God) supported Sam & Dean’s understanding of right and wrong.  Dean even said to Amara ‘The Golden Rule, brother’s keeper... it IS his universe.’

Now?  What universe is it?  The ideals Sam & Dean embody are just plot points?  And they have suffered their whole life not because they were doing the right thing but because it amused Chuck?  Pretty shitty statement on the natural order and the concepts of ‘right and wrong’  

This pretty much sums up my major disappointment with the shows ending.  Why for me it sucked.  It made my love for the show a mockery. 

I was hoping God is off, something isn't right and he's not God.  But I'm not sure I even care to find out.  Killing HOPE, isn't a show I want to watch.

I never wanted Chuck to be God.  But at least before this ep, he did seem like he cared even if it wasn't really good.  It made AU Michael more important.  He wanted to get back at God for all that he did by not caring.  But AU Michael meant what this season.  I guess this entire season has been slowly draining my love for this show.  WORST than any other writer.

I'm not applauding, but I'm so thankful that the boys pulled the plug but maybe it has been done too late.  Not sure how they can do this in a way that makes me want to watch again.  Stopping because anything else just going into bitter territory.

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The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that this "Chuck" was actually Metatron. I mean I don't know how they would pull that off, but the personality matches up way better with Metatron's than with Chuck. Plus, if Amara really WAS back on Earth, don't you think she would have at least wanted to see Dean?

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1 hour ago, ZennyKenny said:

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that this "Chuck" was actually Metatron.

Maybe an AU Metatron? Regular Metatron died without his grace, so therefore more "human" than angel and without his powers. And he died while trying to help save the humanity that he had now learned to understand, appreciate, and respect, as reflected in "Don't Call Me Shurley." That was regular Metatron's journey, and I would hate to see that walked back almost more than I would would hate to see an evil Chuck. (Since I happen to like Metatron and his journey - actually one of the only things I liked about season 8 and 9 was the introduction of Metatron.)

But a Metatron from the/an AU who hadn't lost his grace and gone through that journey? This would be more in character.

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I think maybe it's Gabriel. This is much more the Trickster's style. So he's 'dead', so what? Means nothing on this show. Maybe he wasn't really most sincerely dead on the other side and is pissed they left him behind. Maybe he faked his death again and slipped through the rift disguised as a random hunter. Hmm, maybe that zombie dance to Heat of the Moment   is a possibility after all.

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If he's a fake, I would say he's Gabriel, too. 

And I'm going to hope for that because it really being Chuck would suck out loud to me.

I still can't believe that Dabb is just going to have them doing hunts they've already done in the last season of this show!

But considering all the retread storylines that he's already done while holding the showrunner title, the utter laziness involved in doing just that, shouldn't really come as any surprise, I suppose.

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For me, if they backtrack on it being God, then that is just cowardly. And yet it wouldn't surprise if they floated this now, and tap the feedback in SM before going back to writing and assess whether fandom in general will accept the story line of God being the big bad. Which would really suck.

I don't think it's Metatron or Gabriel. I don't see why the would go to all the trouble of redeeming Gabriel just to bring him back as the villainous God. Metatron also had some redemption so I don't see why he would come back and pretend to be Chuck. His ego wanted to be recognized for being Good and he didn't seem to be interested in screwing with the Winchesters for the fun of it. His was all about being God. The Winchesters were just troublesome to him more than the focus of his energies.

Amara wouldn't bother with wearing Chuck's face.. unless this was her long revenge and to punish Chuck, but I don't think she would screw around that way with Dean to do it. She got what she wanted in the end.

No, I think it's exactly as it seems. Chuck is the villain. Dabb et Al think they are doing something super cool and edgy. And they are not.

Too bad Michael seems to be really most sincerely dead because Dean wearing Michael and Sam wearing Lucifer working together to dispatch Chuck would be a good end game. Of course there is OG! Michael that Dean could wear... Hmm if they went direction , that could be fun. Jared and Jensen would probably be down for that!

But here, I think Chuck is God being a dick and like what Michael! Dean said he was. He just tearing up the story again because Dean and Sam didn't do what he wrote.

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1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

For me, if they backtrack on it being God, then that is just cowardly. And yet it wouldn't surprise if they floated this now, and tap the feedback in SM before going back to writing and assess whether fandom in general will accept the story line of God being the big bad. Which would really suck.

I don't think it's Metatron or Gabriel. I don't see why the would go to all the trouble of redeeming Gabriel just to bring him back as the villainous God. Metatron also had some redemption so I don't see why he would come back and pretend to be Chuck. His ego wanted to be recognized for being Good and he didn't seem to be interested in screwing with the Winchesters for the fun of it. His was all about being God. The Winchesters were just troublesome to him more than the focus of his energies.

Amara wouldn't bother with wearing Chuck's face.. unless this was her long revenge and to punish Chuck, but I don't think she would screw around that way with Dean to do it. She got what she wanted in the end.

No, I think it's exactly as it seems. Chuck is the villain. Dabb et Al think they are doing something super cool and edgy. And they are not.

A friend and I were talking and she floated the idea that maybe Chuck absorbed Amara, and lied that she was in Reno - because of course he would. And maybe that's why he's darker now. Yet, given the last we saw of Amara, it doesn't really compute that she'd still be much in the way of Darkness, anymore than it makes sense that Gabriel or Metatron would be back in the first place and pretending to be Chuck. It doesn't fit with the last we saw of any of these characters.

No, the most logical explanation is that the Chuck we saw in Moriah was simply Chuck, regardless of the fact that this version of Chuck is hella hateful and negates everything we've seen the last 14 years, or will see from now on. And forget "Team Free Will" - not sure we can say there is such a thing in this universe.

Of course, Dabb and Singer could try and backtrack when they start breaking down the new season, but as you said, that would be cowardly and weak.

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I already think that they are cowardly, weak, and incredibly lazy so backtracking on this wouldn't surprise me in the least and I further think that it would fit right into the writing for Dabbernatural. 

They're probably consulting Twitter and Tumblr as we type for ideas on how to write the s15 premiere, if you ask me.

But again, I wonder how the Js feel about(specifically) Chuck being turned into the Big Bad of the last season with all that they've done and accomplished as hunters on the verge of being washed away as if none of it ever happened. 

Maybe someone will ask them at Jibcon.

As an aside, I was also wondering if time travel to correct everything will be a possible answer as things begin to wind down and if Chuck continues on with his decision to end the story.

Maybe they could backtrack to the garden and Dean could set off the soul bomb taking out Chuck and Amara before they make up leaving the world in the hands of Sam and Cas and even an eventually still-to-come Jack; and until Dean somehow makes his way back to life in the future movie that would reunite TFW.

Edited by Myrelle · Reason: Revision
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Chuck reversed the ‘stop lying’.  I don’t see any entity but God doing that.  

But Chuck was definitely off.  Maybe he’s gone insane.  Fabulous.  

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49 minutes ago, SueB said:

Chuck reversed the ‘stop lying’.  I don’t see any entity but God doing that.  

But Chuck was definitely off.  Maybe he’s gone insane.  Fabulous.  

But if he was the Trickster, he could easily have faked the radio 'news'. And controlling one part of the city wouldn't be hard - he controlled a whole town in Florida. Plus it would give Speight another turn on the show, and Dabb seems to be all about that.

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50 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But if he was the Trickster, he could easily have faked the radio 'news'. And controlling one part of the city wouldn't be hard - he controlled a whole town in Florida. Plus it would give Speight another turn on the show, and Dabb seems to be all about that.

Fair point.  Not my expectation. 

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1 hour ago, SueB said:

Fair point.  Not my expectation. 

Not mine either,  but it's my wish. Anything not to have destroyed 14 years of story.

My expectation is that Jack will be resurrected,  more powerful than ever and 200% more nougaty,  and he'll save the day.

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On 5/1/2019 at 10:22 AM, catrox14 said:

For me, if they backtrack on it being God, then that is just cowardly. And yet it wouldn't surprise if they floated this now, and tap the feedback in SM before going back to writing and assess whether fandom in general will accept the story line of God being the big bad. Which would really suck.

I know that you spend time on social media, (as well as others here), so what is the general reaction to this horrible idea to turn God into the Big Bad, and in doing so, undo the Winchesters' story and the fans' beliefs of the last fourteen seasons? Input from anyone will be appreciated.

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30 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I know that you spend time on social media, (as well as others here), so what is the general reaction to this horrible idea to turn God into the Big Bad, and in doing so, undo the Winchesters' story and the fans' beliefs of the last fourteen seasons? Input from anyone will be appreciated.

What I've seen is a mixed bag from thinking it's awesome all the way to screw this show and somewhere in the middle. 

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39 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What I've seen is a mixed bag from thinking it's awesome all the way to screw this show and somewhere in the middle. 

So, pretty much like every episode in the past 3 seasons at least.  😊 

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They've only ever cared about those who blow smoke up their asses, IMO, and I don't see that changing at this point, no matter if the feedback is more divided than ever before-which I think it is, but I've noticed a bit of a change since the Nougatbaby usurped the DeanMichael storyline.

The Jack is All That faction has always spent a lot of time and energy inundating the writer and show accounts with how wonderful everything is, but after Ouroboros, I saw more than a little criticism of the writing start to creep in even in those accounts-likely from even Dean-leaning bi-bros realizing how wrong in every way that turn in the storyline was.

It seems to me as if the Cas fandom and the Jack fandom have almost become one and the same, at this point.

Pretty much everyone on my timelines cheered the announcement of the end AND I also feel that many who had left the show, even long ago, took time to make a celebratory post, too-and again even on the show and writer accounts.

Granted most of the feedback on those accounts was still crying and tears from the usual suspects but I'm convinced that there was a pretty large contingent of Dean fans(at least) who had been waiting for that announcement for a very long time. 

Tbh, if the show is to have any hope of a decent last season with Dabb at the helm then the Js are going to have to throw their weight around in that writer's room and demand that the show return to actually being written about the two brothers before all others, first and foremost, with all the other characters in supportive roles of the two leads.

And there has been A LOT of feedback calling for this, of late, IMO.

And it's my belief that they can do that, if they want to.

It's their show more than anyone's and has been since the head of the network gave them the power to end it whenever they wanted to.

It's just a question of how far they're willing to take this new role of theirs. 

I don't see them doing any actual writing, but I do see them weighing in on how they want each of their characters to be written and hopefully that will mean there will be less of the cardboard cutout Winchesters that we've been getting/given in the last three seasons and more of the layered and complex characters that this show started out with.

I've been re-watching s10 and 11 on TNT, the last few weeks and the Dean and Sam of even just these two latter seasons, nevermind earlier seasons, are nothing like the same characters in s12 to the present, IMO. Nothing at all.

It's really been jarring to me, in all honesty. 

Like night and day.

Edited by Myrelle · Reason: Revision
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4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

What I've seen is a mixed bag from thinking it's awesome all the way to screw this show and somewhere in the middle. 

This has been my experience too...although the tumblr crowd seem more positive than negative with the final ep...but they also seem to more enjoy Dabb-era than not though. Also, I notice that the destiel craze might be dying down a little. It seems that they no longer have their hopes up (like they did in season 12/13). And I’m sure we all follow/see different posts, but on my dash, the feedback on Jack is pretty split down the middle of love him or hate him. I don’t see the Jack fans and the Cas fans as one in the same at all. However, most everyone that I’ve seen write up things agree that the Michael!Dean SL would have been a much better one to continue with than the Jack SL. Lastly, it seems too that most agree they want the focus on original TFW from here on out (Dean, Sam, and Cas). Again, a lot of this is from Tumblr. (I know I know- I’m way too old to be on Tumblr lol). 

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21 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

Again, a lot of this is from Tumblr. (I know I know- I’m way too old to be on Tumblr lol). 

I should add that most of what I've seen is from Twitter. 

I have a tumblr account but that's mostly for all the pretty pictures and I haven't been on as much as I used to be. 

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33 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

I don’t see the Jack fans and the Cas fans as one in the same at all.

I've actually seen a lot of comments from Cas fans that dislike Jack because they feel like he was created to be a replacement for Cas. They've mentioned that the bulk of the reason for their dislike is due to a lot of Cas's mannerisms and naivete being mirrored in Jack's character. Of course I don't know if that's Alex's acting choice or if it's how he's been directed to act. I have to admit that I noticed it also and it was one of the reasons why I questioned the need for Jack when we already had Cas.

17 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I have a tumblr account but that's mostly for all the pretty pictures and I haven't been on as much as I used to be. 

I just liked a ton of pretty Dean/Jensen pictures on Tumblr just this evening; go check it out!

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11 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I questioned the need for Jack when we already had Cas.

Good point. I guess for the young'uns Dabb is trying to attract.  

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Cas really got screwed by Jack SL. He was completely set up to be Jack's not!Dad which turned out to really be setting up Sam to be his good dad and Dean to be his bad dad. Poor Cas is nothing but  a plot device for other characters now. And  that showed itself in this episode.

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17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Cas really got screwed by Jack SL. He was completely set up to be Jack's not!Dad which turned out to really be setting up Sam to be his good dad and Dean to be his bad dad. Poor Cas is nothing but  a plot device for other characters now. And  that showed itself in this episode.

Maybe even more than Dean did, because the last few eps of S14 really made me dislike Castiel in a way I'm not sure he can come back from.

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12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe even more than Dean did, because the last few eps of S14 really made me dislike Castiel in a way I'm not sure he can come back from.

I am willing to see how it goes with Cas in s15. I think if he decides to take down Chuck along with Dean and Sam, I'll forgive him. That said, unless Cas decides to understand Dean's POV and kind of apologizes for being a dick, it'll be tough. Of course, with Jack not being shown as truly evil, that leaves Cas seeming more justified in his treatment of Dean. I'm trying to hold out some hope. 😟

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18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe even more than Dean did, because the last few eps of S14 really made me dislike Castiel in a way I'm not sure he can come back from.

Never commented on it before but Cas has gotten a pretty raw deal under Dabb. The writers had no idea what to do with him and he was too popular to just throw away like Crowley. He is pretty much just time filler for days when one of the J’s are off. I guess apathy is better then hate but even his character has gotten some payback for leaving. The past 7 episodes have been brutal for all three members of TFW. I hope they really do have some power next year or we will be stuck with Dabb’s desperate attempt to spin-off Jack (which will never happen).

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29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I am willing to see how it goes with Cas in s15. I think if he decides to take down Chuck along with Dean and Sam, I'll forgive him. That said, unless Cas decides to understand Dean's POV and kind of apologizes for being a dick, it'll be tough. Of course, with Jack not being shown as truly evil, that leaves Cas seeming more justified in his treatment of Dean. I'm trying to hold out some hope. 😟

At this point, I don't need any more apologies. Not from anyone.

They all handled things with the Nougatbaby how they usually handle things, IMO.

One of the biggest things that I've seen on twitter that the Cas and Jack fandoms shared in this last part of the season was the absolute demand that Dean apologize for being wrong and/or "mean" to their favorite-oh, and a ton of hate for Dean over those things, too.

I most certainly don't want to see Dean apologize(again and some more) for anything that he's said or done. Not even a little-and especially when it's highly unlikely that we'll get apologies from either Cas or Jack for anything that they've said or done since the Nougatbaby was born.

These characters should know enough about each other by now to realize that apologies aren't really necessary any longer, IMO.

They all do what they do and say what they say, but in the end, when it comes down to the end of the world, they're all on the same page there. 

It should only be a matter of coming up with a plan to thwart Chuck now-or who ever that was wearing Chuck's face-if that was the case.

I don't need or even want apologies from anyone, at this point, and I really hope that they won't go there at all.

Edited by Myrelle · Reason: Revision
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From: HomeOfTheNutty

Pointed out on SPNFangasm’s review (in the comments) .. Dean is backed into a corner.  Excellent lighting/framing/props...etc....

1027D900-3B8E-4EDD-ADAA-64DF4C64BA04.jpeg

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5 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Good point. I guess for the young'uns Dabb is trying to attract.  

It wouldn't surprise me if S15 consists of Nougat Boy and two new sidekicks front and center, complete with Dabb trying to convince TPTB at the CW to continue the show after the Js are gone.

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Love Jack, seriously just love him and I can't believe how much I've come to love him since I never wanted him on the show.

Love Chuck, always have and I kind of hate him right now but, I can't deny that this is within Chuck's wheelhouse. I wouldn't be shocked to find out he killed Amara afterall.

I don't know if they knew 15 would be their fina season but, this certainly felt like the setup for a Final Season storyline.

ETA: Jensen is seriously a beautiful man, he just gets better looking every year. 

Edited by Morrigan2575
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Please stay on topic. This thread is for discussion of the season 14 finale episode — not speculation about the show’s future or discussion of other fan groups.

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5 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

So in the end what was the purpose of Nick?  Not Lucifer but Nick?

Keeping Mark Pellegrino on the show. Seriously, I think that was, is and will be the sole reason.

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1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

So in the end what was the purpose of Nick?  Not Lucifer but Nick?

Seems to me, since they made Chuck the big bad essentially, they are setting up Lucifer for a redemption arc. Of course, this also runs over Michael's arc to...which grrrr. 

Funny enough, both Michaels are parallel to Dean's story with John.  Both Michaels loved Chuck and they both tried to do what he wanted. Chuck left OG Michael to raise Lucifer and that he would have to kill him. (as was stated in s5).

AU!Michael fought and killed his Lucifer because of what Chuck wanted.  And then Chuck abandoned him...much like John abandoned Dean and gave him the responsibility to save Sam or Kill Sam.

There is still so much potential for the show to do something with Michael and Dean with their relationship to Chuck and John, in s15, and yet, I think it will all go to Jack and Lucifer....Sigh

Edited by catrox14
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19 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

So in the end what was the purpose of Nick?  Not Lucifer but Nick?

He was a mirror storyline for Dean/Jack and Sam/Jack in different ways. 

I think that was all scrapped when the news that 15 was the last season happened. 

That news was clearly post filming of Nihilism because the ending with the books was filmed before they knew. They tossed their mytharc and set up a final endgame. 

They had been setting up Lucifer and Michael...again... instead both were easily and eterollingly dispatched by Jack in ways that took 5 minutes to write. Ouroboros is a really well written episode until Michael gets put of Dean's head and then it feels like a mess. Perhaps it was hastily rewritten.

They have always suggested that Chuck wasn't great and in Michael establishing killing him as his goal they were heading to Chuck eventually however Jensen pulling the plug now changed the story in the real world. And I agree Jensen did pull the plug. On this board people on social media commented that he did not make a fuss about the season renewal. That was telling. 

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3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

He was a mirror storyline for Dean/Jack and Sam/Jack in different ways. 

I think that was all scrapped when the news that 15 was the last season happened. 

That news was clearly post filming of Nihilism because the ending with the books was filmed before they knew. They tossed their mytharc and set up a final endgame. 

They had been setting up Lucifer and Michael...again... instead both were easily and eterollingly dispatched by Jack in ways that took 5 minutes to write. Ouroboros is a really well written episode until Michael gets put of Dean's head and then it feels like a mess. Perhaps it was hastily rewritten.

They have always suggested that Chuck wasn't great and in Michael establishing killing him as his goal they were heading to Chuck eventually however Jensen pulling the plug now changed the story in the real world. And I agree Jensen did pull the plug. On this board people on social media commented that he did not make a fuss about the season renewal. That was telling. 

They have made no secret about who ended the show.  They had evidently decided months before the announcement.  And I'm sure that affected the story, Berens moving on to Doom Patrol and guest writers with no experience penning some of the episodes.  The second half did turn into a mess.

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7 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

They have made no secret about who ended the show.  They had evidently decided months before the announcement.  And I'm sure that affected the story, Berens moving on to Doom Patrol and guest writers with no experience penning some of the episodes.  The second half did turn into a mess.

Is Berens really off the show. I know he’s doing some Doom patrol but I haven’t heard anything confirming he is gone from Supernatural. If that’s true it would be fantastic news and solve at least one major problem next year.

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2 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Is Berens really off the show. I know he’s doing some Doom patrol but I haven’t heard anything confirming he is gone from Supernatural. If that’s true it would be fantastic news and solve at least one major problem next year.

I don't think we know for sure yet.  I'm guessing we will find out in a few weeks.  But he sings the praises of DP on his twitter, Carver brought him into both shows and with SPN ending I would guess he will go where the long term job is.

The problem with Berens leaving is that leaves us with another writer that has never seen the show.   

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55 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There is no way they can survive this without supernatural interference. I fear for my eyeballs in 15x01.

1420.gif

This is a great clip. 

I could imagine TFW really dies, Cas wakes up in the empty, Sam and Dean go to heaven, but find a way back, after visiting John and Mary, of course. 

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1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

I don't think we know for sure yet.  I'm guessing we will find out in a few weeks.  But he sings the praises of DP on his twitter, Carver brought him into both shows and with SPN ending I would guess he will go where the long term job is.

The problem with Berens leaving is that leaves us with another writer that has never seen the show.   

To me that is still better than a spiteful vengeful one who hate writes episodes to specifically piss off fans as punishment for not recognizing how great his Mary Sue’s are. 

We have a least two of those now so less of that is better if a new writer without all baggage can replace one. Doesn’t solve the major issue, Dabb. Moriah can be summed up in one sentence. Show runner is pissed off that his actors won’t do what he wants so he destroys the show.

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