S17.E07: Elegance Is the New Black

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On 4/25/2019 at 11:14 PM, mightysparrow said:

I was praying for that.  Or for the judges to decide that because her outfit was so CLEARLY the worst, they weren't going to send anybody home.

I would love to see a rules tweak ... since they score all the designs, maybe a rule that if a designer with immunity ranks on the bottom, no one goes home and ALL THE SCORES go towards the next week's rankings, so the immune designer is already trying to dig themself out of the bottom.

Or better yet, screw immunity and just give the winner each week a cool prize (I think that's what they do on Top Chef, right? I can't recall if they get immunity but they have great weekly prizes). 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

39 minutes ago, dleighg said:

you're right-- that's what was tacked. And it did look sloppy. And I still don't understand why he couldn't get her out of the dress. We've all (I think) had a zipper tab fall off. We figure out how to get out of the clothing 🙂

Heh, yes, thank goodness or I'd be stuck in some clothes that I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life in! I think he just panicked and wasn't thinking calmly/clearly enough to figure out a way to get the zipper up and down one more time.

[Fukui San]

Thank goodness for Christian for telling Jamal to stop messing around with muslin. I was getting annoyed at him still at that stage 2/3 of the way through a challenge. 

I reiterate that I’m not sure that this is still “a competition for the models as well” as we’re used to. They don’t say that up front anymore, and they don’t give them a goodbye. 

Also, as they’re talking to the models and the models are occasionally giving lukewarm feedback about the designers, the models don’t seem to have incentives  to consider themselves a team with the designers as in the past. 

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On 4/26/2019 at 4:51 AM, nb360 said:

So the winning look is available for sale, pictured with a thin model and a curvy girl, and I have to say, Jamal’s design does not look as nice on the curvy girl as the thinner

So, after clicking the link and seeing the three designs from this season featured, all with thin and curvy models, Bishme's was the only one of the three that looked just as good on both ... Tessa's was a MESS (though the pose of that model may have been an especially unfortunate one since it looks like she's trying to find a place to "go" in the woods) ...

But this makes me think that THAT would be a FANTASTIC challenge ... design an XYZ for both a thin model AND a curvy one that looks equally good on both. Because Jamal's curvy model looked awful. And I'm curvy and short and, now that I'm older, gravity has taken its toll and what would have been va-va-voom on me at 20-30 just looks like kaboom.

ETA: Just want to throw this out there and feel free to ignore/shoot it down ... I actually DO think there is (or can be) a difference between "curvy" and "full-sized/plus-sized/fat (or your word of choice here)" though of course someone can be both. 

When I was younger, I was absolutely CURVY but went through a thin phase (DDD cup size, and skinny as a stick from there down with no hips). I would have been a huge challenge for a designer, and it was almost impossible to find clothes that actually fit from the time I was 17 (when I lost 50 pounds) until I was 30 (and got pregnant, at which point I was literally an L cup according to Lucky Lady). After that I was a little more evenly distributed even if that meant more to distribute. Now, gravity has taken its toll and all bets are off.

In my mind, I guess, "curvy" denotes that they might be "off the rack" size A around the boobs, size B for their waist, and size C for their hips, if that makes sense -- something a designer can work with for a one-off but tough for off-the-rack challenges, while there are plenty of plus-sized folks who are more well-apportioned in that they are the size they are from top to bottom.

And this could simply be my wacky world of size nightmares that have left me wearing tent dresses most of my life, since the girls had to fit into it and the rest was left to chance LOL. 

Oh, also??? I can't remember the exact words, but when Sonia was saying something about "Oh, well, I'll use the kimono in a future challenge," all I could think was ... DRAMATIC CHIPMUNK!!!

Edited April 27, 2019 by PamelaMaeSnap

[DaphneCat]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Because the zipper pull came off, Venny didn't have the model take the dress off so that he could finish sewing the straps on with the sewing machine. I was surprised that he didn't just put a safety pin through the little metal hole on the zipper and use that as a temporary zipper pull to get the dress on and off his model.

It was NOT just the tab - it was the entire pull.  I suspect he just bought a length of zipper and did not sew a few stitches at to top to make a stop so the entire zipper mechanism came off.  I'm assuming he put stitches at the bottom - if he had time he could have removed the bottom stitches and simply restarted the zipper from the bottom but he either didn't think of that or REALLY didn't have the time.  They can absolutely open the zipper to get the model out - they just couldn't zip her back up without spending time.

[Token]

I refuse to use the phrase plus-sized to refer to any of the models on this show.  None of them are.  They're just average-sized.  We don't realise that, though, because we're seeing them next to the extremely thin models that are predominantly on the show.

[Empress1]

2 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

ETA: Just want to throw this out there and feel free to ignore/shoot it down ... I actually DO think there is (or can be) a difference between "curvy" and "full-sized/plus-sized/fat (or your word of choice here)" though of course someone can be both. 

I agree - that's actually exactly why I don't like the way the term is used on the show. "Curvy," to me, connotes certain proportions. You can be average-sized and curvy; you can be plus-sized and curvy, but not all plus-sized women are curvy. My best friend is small on top (A-cup, narrow shoulders) but her hips are full. She's pear-shaped - and I don't mean that pejoratively at all; I mean she's quite literally shaped like a pear. She has curves; she is literally curvy. On this show, they use it to mean "anyone over a size 4, regardless of proportions" but IMO that's not what it means.

[carrps]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I was surprised that he didn't just put a safety pin through the little metal hole on the zipper and use that as a temporary zipper pull to get the dress on and off his model.

I can't count how many times I've used this trick.

[ML89]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Because the zipper pull came off, Venny didn't have the model take the dress off so that he could finish sewing the straps on with the sewing machine. I was surprised that he didn't just put a safety pin through the little metal hole on the zipper and use that as a temporary zipper pull to get the dress on and off his model.

Exactly. Or tie some thread through it. Unless he was scared if he pulled it, the whole thing would break. Venny's dress was a snooze - I guess anyone using a color other than black makes the judges swoon because it looked like every other dress I've seen twentysomethings trot around in in my neck of the woods. None of these folks can pick a print (although Sonia's "back story" shots were full of dresses with cool prints so where was that?)

Re: the curvy models. I'm in the middle on Tessa but I didn't see any of the 8 designers ahead of her leaping to pick one of the curvy models either, so where was some snark at them? 

Hester is on my last nerve. 

Nina, how is plaid a men's fabric again? Considering I wore a plaid skirt my entire time in Catholic school?

[yellowcalla]

I have been binging on this season and am finally caught up. In this episode, it finally hit me that Lela looks just like Ivanka Trump with brown hair! It's creepy and makes me really uncomfortable now each time she's on screen. I wonder if it was an active choice on her part to make her face look like Ivanka's. 

I really loved Sebastian's orchid dress and would have put that in the top 3 instead of Venny's dress. Maybe it's all in the eye of the beholder but I did not get the huge praise for Jamall's dress. It looked like a bolt of fabric that had come undone. The top half was attractive enough but the bottom half looked unfinished. But I'm happy for him that he loosed up and had an awakening. I guess the judges wanted to validate him.

Edited April 27, 2019 by yellowcalla

[carrps]

34 minutes ago, ML89 said:

Re: the curvy models. I'm in the middle on Tessa but I didn't see any of the 8 designers ahead of her leaping to pick one of the curvy models either, so where was some snark at them? 

Nina, how is plaid a men's fabric again? Considering I wore a plaid skirt my entire time in Catholic school?

Yeah, I liked all those holier-than-thou designers nodding along with Brandon when he shat on Tessa, but did any of them actually pick Kate??? There's a reason she was the last picked, and it's not just because she's "curvy."

Heh, I think Nina thinks lumberjacks or Seattle grunge when she sees plaid.

[mightysparrow]

Thanks to @ElectricBoogaloo for that interview with JPG.  Hester could take a whole library's worth of notes from him.  The first thing she could note is how he's dressed.  JPG always dresses very simply; he saves it for the runway.  That's the sign of a REAL fashion rebel.

I'm on board with not using the word 'curvy' to describe larger women.  I've always been 'curvy' but I've never been heavy.  I've got an hourglass shape.  I don't know why the larger models aren't called 'plus-sized'.

I can't blame a designer for not wanting to work with a larger model in these circumstances.  It's a competition and time is a huge part of it.  Unless you've done it before, designing for larger women is a lot of work.  It's not just taking a regular design and making it bigger.  It's about proportion, about fabric choice.  I think there should be a segment where ALL the designers have to work with larger models, so it's fair to everyone.  I think the show is paying lip service to size diversity without bothering to explore WHY most designers don't want to design for large women.

[Ms Blue Jay]

16 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

Garo and Sebastien should have been in the top with Jamal, and either Sebastien or Jamal winning.

I'm a little ticked that Jamal did not give any credit to Christian for suggesting he try draping the fabric around the model. It's possible he did but it didn't get aired.

Agree, and said the exact same.

[DrSparkles]

23 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

I have a feeling that Hester isn't in this to become a working designer.  She doesn't have the imagination or the chops.  Now that I've seen Tom Ford sent models in pasties down the catwalk, my spidey sense is on red alert. 

I think that Hester is in this to become a 'personality' either on television or social media.  She's looking for a career in being 'kooky' and different. 

Hester's problem is that her idea of what's 'different' is suburban.  There's nothing new about her look; it's come and gone several time in the last few decades.  All those hats and outfits reminds me of the late 70s and early 80s.  Toni Basil, Cindy Lauper, it's all been done before! 

The idea of Hester having the discipline and the ability to put together a line for fashion week makes me laugh.  When would she have time to work on a line when she spends so much time putting together her own outfits every day?

EXACTLY!!!

[DrSparkles]

20 hours ago, millennium said:

I missed the first few seasons so I don't know much about Wendy Pepper except that, according to Wikipedia, she subsequently appeared on many reality-type shows and is dead.

Seasons 1 & 2 were some incredible tv in terms of talent. Except! Can you IMAGINE Santino’s half-ass raggedy shite standing up to the up close examination ?!?? 😅😅😅😅😅

[lovinbob]

7 hours ago, Corgi-ears said:

No kidding. The phrase "X is the new black" usually suggests that X used to not be popular, trendy, timeless, ELEGANT, and fashionable the way black perpetually is, but now X will be so. I must have missed the moment when "elegance" was out. But hey, now elegance is elegant again!

Thank you for articulating this! I could not figure out how to put it into words.

[Kaiju Ballet]

Fistpump as Brandon addressed Hester –“I feel you’re being disrespectful---“

Fist turns into a different gesture “—to your other designs.”

WTF? No, as people here have said, it’s Hester’s huge FU not just to the judges but all of us watching the show, wanting good design results from interesting challenges. It's beyond annoying.

Elaine “I think the pasties are a brilliant idea” (but only if you’re Tom Ford) “but it’s just the execution” WTF? Especially as she then turns around and vomits something about Jamal’s design making a huge statement about gender politics.  Meanwhile Hester’s model is totally being exploited. Where is Elaine’s social commentary about that? Never mind, I’d rather hear more about the actual business of fashion, please.

Does Nina’s standpoint on kitsch depend on the weather or what she had for lunch?

Christian is starting to eclipse Tim Gunn for me as a mentor, and I loved Bravo Tim Gunn. What Christian did for Jamal (freed from Rakan’s influence) and then his kind words to Sonia were both inspirational and exactly what you'd hope from a mentor. Hope Tessa was paying attention. (Although I did appreciate her goodnatured response to being shooed away for being nosey)

And come to think of it, Christian was an example of being a huge personality in his season, but he had the chops and drive to win the competition. Hester is now the one who's bringing the show down, the more her attention-seeking ways are being inexplicably encouraged. I also feel like she’s sucking away attention from the other designers, not to mention their interaction with the models and hair and makeup and accessory selection.

I like Karli, and seeing her “at work” as Brandon’s muse was really cool. Not to mention a nice template for how designers could be working with their models. (At least this challenge didn't have models sewing alongside their designers) Plus, Karli's taste level is definitely less questionable than Heidi’s.

I feel almost as if Heidi would have been seen out and about wearing that hot mess that Hester sent down the runway.

[Jobiska]

Every time I saw the pasties, it looked like the model had just come from a spa day and took the cucumber slices off her eyes and slapped them over her nipples.  Which would actually be much more comfortable than fabric glue!

I was puzzled--Hester kept talking like they were glued right to her skin, but it did look to me like they were glued outside the sheer fabric--were there any shots that indicated which was true?

I guess those big acrylic "bags" were conceptual or whatever but I can't imagine carrying one around.  Hey, look at all my gum wrappers and loose Advil that came out of my pill pouch!  

[sunshine23]

Hester definitely earned her spot in the bottom, and she definitely deserved it!

[chitowngirl]

3 hours ago, Jobiska said:

I was puzzled--Hester kept talking like they were glued right to her skin, but it did look to me like they were glued outside the sheer fabric--were there any shots that indicated which was true?

Were the pasties supposed to be glued to the breasts or is that just what happened because of the sheerness of the fabric? And what happens when the fabric shifts? 

And Hester definitely got what she wanted-besides the judges talking about her, we’ve been doing it for 4 pages!

[violet and green]

I am surprised anyone's calling out Hester's lack of sewing and construction skills. She has been praised for these by the judges in previous challenges, and even if you didn't like that green pastie frock, the cuffs on the sleeves were divine.

Not all that surprised when I was reminded this was a flash sale thingo - but Sebastian didn't take that into account and design down, whereas Venny did produce something more streamlined. I thought Sebastian's was particularly beautiful and evocative of his orchid, also. I would've given Sebastian the win, otherwise.

I think Jamal had two or three things in his favor. It was a relatively easy to manufacture piece, the fabric was close-up revealed to have a lovely black velvet streak in it (and he used the reverse to good effect), and he was in the bottom a few times and has made a dramatic improvement so it's a good story arc of redemption.

I loathed Renee's look - and am beginning to think she truly is a one-way monkey.

Tessa should've been in the bottom three instead of Hester - but then they would've missed out on telling off Hester, after all the preceding weeks of praise.

I am not sorry Sonia went. She buggered around for an eternity on that corset construction, whilst complaining the judges would barely seen it once she made her (shudder) kimono, and really, I thought she should have gone home weeks ago on the challenge where Afa was sent home prematurely, anyway.

Hester, meanwhile, doesn't bother me at all. I like her work, and I don't mind the fact that she's one of those insecure youngish women who feel the need to dress the part, so as to tell the world they are inventive or whatever. I think it's bizarre to judge a contestant harshly because they like to play with fashion and their persona - on a fashion show!

Edited April 28, 2019 by violet and green
typo

[Beden]

On 4/27/2019 at 12:12 AM, Token said:

All this crap about the curvy models being more work for the designer is complete nonsense.  They wear underwear.  Any designer who is any good at what they do will not have an issue designing for a woman with curves.  Any designer complaining about having to design for a curvy woman is not a good designer. 

No, designing for a larger woman isn't more work, it's (in a way) a different challenge. There generally needs to be more support--which, yes, can be greatly helped with the right foundation garments. Many larger, curvy or older women don't want their boobs hanging out, their necklines cut down to their navels and prefer their arms, at least their upper arms covered. Proportions may be different and have to be accounted for. I'd also like to add the obvious that not everyone is 22 and 6' tall. I'm 5 foot nothing, well past my 20's and don't want to look like I dress myself from a dumpster or am wearing a pup tent. Neither am I impressed by the backhanded insults thrown towards me and my ilk regarding our tragic lack of youth. My lack thereof has allowed me to have 50+ years of experience in a sewing room for which I am well paid. Frankly, if you want my money--because fashion is a business which exists to sell clothing--know your audience. Know ALL of your audience unless you opt to limit yourself.

Any competent designer should certainly have an excellent grasp of pattern making since pattern classes are usually mandatory in any decent fashion/design course. Combine that with a sense of color--enough with the black, please; color is a good thing--fabrics and prints aren't obscenities. Bump that up to a genuinely talented designer--Christian is  a good example--and it's not hard to see what's possible.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Beden

[njbchlover]

4 hours ago, Kaiju Ballet said:

Fistpump as Brandon addressed Hester –“I feel you’re being disrespectful---“

Fist turns into a different gesture “—to your other designs.”

WTF? No, as people here have said, it’s Hester’s huge FU not just to the judges but all of us watching the show, wanting good design results from interesting challenges. It's beyond annoying.

Elaine “I think the pasties are a brilliant idea” (but only if you’re Tom Ford) “but it’s just the execution” WTF? Especially as she then turns around and vomits something about Jamal’s design making a huge statement about gender politics.  Meanwhile Hester’s model is totally being exploited. Where is Elaine’s social commentary about that? Never mind, I’d rather hear more about the actual business of fashion, please.

Does Nina’s standpoint on kitsch depend on the weather or what she had for lunch?

Christian is starting to eclipse Tim Gunn for me as a mentor, and I loved Bravo Tim Gunn. What Christian did for Jamal (freed from Rakan’s influence) and then his kind words to Sonia were both inspirational and exactly what you'd hope from a mentor. Hope Tessa was paying attention. (Although I did appreciate her goodnatured response to being shooed away for being nosey)

And come to think of it, Christian was an example of being a huge personality in his season, but he had the chops and drive to win the competition. Hester is now the one who's bringing the show down, the more her attention-seeking ways are being inexplicably encouraged. I also feel like she’s sucking away attention from the other designers, not to mention their interaction with the models and hair and makeup and accessory selection.

I like Karli, and seeing her “at work” as Brandon’s muse was really cool. Not to mention a nice template for how designers could be working with their models. (At least this challenge didn't have models sewing alongside their designers) Plus, Karli's taste level is definitely less questionable than Heidi’s.

I feel almost as if Heidi would have been seen out and about wearing that hot mess that Hester sent down the runway.

Does anyone know if Hester is Michelle Lesniak's (Season 11 and PRAS) long lost daughter??  Because what you've mentioned here is exactly how I felt about Michelle and currently feel about Hester!

Just kidding, because I know that Michelle is really not old enough to be Hester's mother, but they exhibit so many of the same horrible tendencies, they must be related somehow!  🙂

[nb360]

I love the idea of a challenge that asks designers to design for BOTH a thin girl and a curvy girl! It hasn’t been done before and I would be really interested in the results.

[Stats Queen]

5 hours ago, Kaiju Ballet said:

I feel almost as if Heidi would have been seen out and about wearing that hot mess that Hester sent down the runway.

if you cut a foot or more off the bottom of the skirt 

[DaphneCat]

9 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

I can't blame a designer for not wanting to work with a larger model in these circumstances.  It's a competition and time is a huge part of it.  Unless you've done it before, designing for larger women is a lot of work.  It's not just taking a regular design and making it bigger.  It's about proportion, about fabric choice. 

4 hours ago, Beden said:

No, designing for a larger woman isn't more work, it's (in a way) a different challenge. There generally needs to be more support--which, yes, can be greatly helped with the right foundation garments. Many larger, curvy or older women don't want their boobs hanging out, their necklines cut down to their navels and prefer their arms, at least their upper arms covered. Proportions may be different and have to be accounted for. I'd also like to add the obvious that not everyone is 22 and 6' tall. I'm 5 foot nothing, well past my 20's and don't want to look like I dress myself from a dumpster or am wearing a pup tent. Neither am I impressed by the backhanded insults thrown towards me and my ilk regarding our tragic lack of youth. Frankly, if you want my money--because fashion is a business which exists to sell clothing--know your audience. Know ALL of your audience unless you opt to limit yourself.

I think it is harder to get the proper fit on a larger model.  As many have said, you can't just take a small design and make it bigger.  I don't wear a plus size, but when I sew I have to make a full bust adjustment without making the rest of the bodice bigger.  This requires additional darts, pleats, or something to get the extra fabric in a specific place without  adding overall bulk.  I can understand why someone wouldn't want to do the fiddly work of adding curves under a time crunch.  (The corset is a bit of a cop-out, because you CAN just add extra fabric to the bodice and it "disappears" when the corset is laced.)  As Beden said, this also limits the designs you can use.  Tessa first "apron" dress would have either had massive side boob or the proportion of the rest of the top would have been off.  I agree with others that they should have SEVERAL challenges where ALL of the designers have models in the same size range.  For example, all use models in say a size 12 or 14 - which by the way, is NOT plus size.  Another challenge could involve all models in the 16-18 range.  I would also love it if they had a challenge for older women.  Someone linked Christian's last collection and while there were many, many things that were geared for a younger customer, there were things in his "regular" collection that could, indeed have been worn by an older woman without her looking ridiculous.

[AntAnn]

1 hour ago, DaphneCat said:

I would also love it if they had a challenge for older women. 

Raises hand because I’m almost 63. Pick me! Someone besides their mom, or a relative, because that has to be too emotional. I’d be the perfect stranger.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I agree that there is a difference between curvy bodies and those that happen to be bigger than a size 2, but for some reason the show uses the word curvy to mean both the former and the latter.

[millennium]

On 4/27/2019 at 9:24 AM, Empress1 said:

One thing I can't stand, and I see I'm not alone, is the euphemism "curvy" for plus-sized. Just say plus-sized!

According to Wikipedia, we should get used to it:

A relatively new alternative term for plus size (or large size) gaining consumer and editorial favor is curvy. In a euphemistic sense, curvy is regarded as less offensive to those that wear larger sized clothes. There is evidence of this term gaining media and market traction. In current media use, while curvy can appear less offensive, it appears to associate with a younger style of dressing than plus size or larger size when used as a general reference term.

Why is it necessary to have any term that designates people 14 and above as second class citizens?   Everybody knows the upper sizes are for larger people, do we really need a term like "plus size" or "curvy" for added insult?  What's the point?  To keep those people in their place?   To give the size 2 and 4 crowd something to snicker at?   

Clothes should be marketed without judgment but the current nomenclature -- "plus size," "curvy," etc. -- imposes a verdict on the buyer.  It says "You're not one of us, dear."

If the industry truly wants to do away with body shaming (and I don't believe it does, I think it's all just lip service for marketing purposes), expunging terms like "plus size" and "curvy" might be a good place to start.  

[millennium]

13 hours ago, violet and green said:

Hester, meanwhile, doesn't bother me at all. I like her work, and I don't mind the fact that she's one of those insecure youngish women who feel the need to dress the part, so as to tell the world they are inventive or whatever. I think it's bizarre to judge a contestant harshly because they like to play with fashion and their persona - on a fashion show!

I'm not sure it's Hester's appearance people find so off-putting as much as her attention-whoring.   That's what her little outfits are all about.  Every PR show features at least one attention whore (the last PR All-Stars it was Anthony Ryan, and let's not forget the Twins, etc) and that person is pretty consistently despised by the audience.   I suspect that if their instincts for self-promotion were more subdued and the producers less inclined to milk them for maximum effect, the Hesters of the world would find greater acceptance among the audience. 

[Empress1]

9 hours ago, AntAnn said:

Raises hand because I’m almost 63. Pick me! Someone besides their mom, or a relative, because that has to be too emotional. I’d be the perfect stranger.

Every "regular person" challenge, I think about how one of the designers made another designer's mom cry and how I would wear that dude out if he made my mother cry. There was also one where people could nominate their friends to be on the "regular person" challenge and one of the designers (who was far from svelte himself) kept calling his model fat AND he designed something ugly that she hated (IIRC she kept telling him what she wanted and he straight ignored her), and the friend who nominated her looked like she wanted to kick his ass. IIRC she spoke up about the way he treated her friend on the runway, and he was eliminated. 

[Token]

10 hours ago, DaphneCat said:

I think it is harder to get the proper fit on a larger model.  As many have said, you can't just take a small design and make it bigger.  I don't wear a plus size, but when I sew I have to make a full bust adjustment without making the rest of the bodice bigger.  This requires additional darts, pleats, or something to get the extra fabric in a specific place without  adding overall bulk.  I can understand why someone wouldn't want to do the fiddly work of adding curves under a time crunch.  (The corset is a bit of a cop-out, because you CAN just add extra fabric to the bodice and it "disappears" when the corset is laced.)  As Beden said, this also limits the designs you can use.  Tessa first "apron" dress would have either had massive side boob or the proportion of the rest of the top would have been off.  I agree with others that they should have SEVERAL challenges where ALL of the designers have models in the same size range.  For example, all use models in say a size 12 or 14 - which by the way, is NOT plus size.  Another challenge could involve all models in the 16-18 range.  I would also love it if they had a challenge for older women.  Someone linked Christian's last collection and while there were many, many things that were geared for a younger customer, there were things in his "regular" collection that could, indeed have been worn by an older woman without her looking ridiculous.

And that's why I think these designers are so crappy.  That's exactly what they're trying to do - take a small design and try to fit it on to an average sized body.  What they should be doing, instead, is looking at who they're designing for and go ahead accordingly.  It then wouldn't be so hard.  They wouldn't have to make changes and accommodations because they'd be working with a good design in the first places.  That's the mark of a good designer and very few people on PR measure up.  Pun intended!  😄 

[Beden]

3 hours ago, millennium said:

If the industry truly wants to do away with body shaming (and I don't believe it does, I think it's all just lip service for marketing purposes), expunging terms like "plus size" and "curvy" might be a good place to start.  

Yes, thank you. I would also add the euphemism 'woman's department', ie, the fat ladie's shop be reconfigured as well. I'd assume that heavier teens would be expected to be thought of as 'women', only able to be fitted in clothing mainly designed for older ladies.

[DaphneCat]

2 hours ago, Token said:

And that's why I think these designers are so crappy.  That's exactly what they're trying to do - take a small design and try to fit it on to an average sized body.  What they should be doing, instead, is looking at who they're designing for and go ahead accordingly.  It then wouldn't be so hard.  They wouldn't have to make changes and accommodations because they'd be working with a good design in the first places.  That's the mark of a good designer and very few people on PR measure up.  Pun intended!  😄 

YES!  You just stated what I was trying to say but didn't.  Designers that only have one style or type of design aren't really designers, they are sewers who've found their niche.  Women with boobs can't wear dresses or tops with tiny triangles of fabric.  Most women do NOT want their hips and butts to look bigger.  That black and white dress they loved would ONLY work on the skinny model.  Anyone with an actual shape would have looked ridiculous.  Most women are not 5' 10" or above and not all short people are also tiny.  A lot of the designers don't put on sleeves (which, for some reason, even thin women want occasionally🙄) because it is extra work to fit them properly.  

When Christian won his season, I didn't have that high of hopes for him because it seemed really focused on fashion for very thin women.  He has since really grown as a designer and really makes clothes a lot of people could actually wear.

11 hours ago, AntAnn said:

Raises hand because I’m almost 63. Pick me! Someone besides their mom, or a relative, because that has to be too emotional. I’d be the perfect stranger.

Yes, just because older women tend to want things like actual sleeves, bodices that aren't open to the navel, and micro mini skirts does not meant we want beige muumuus!  Older women can wear color!  They can wear print!  They can even wear body conscious dresses that show they have a shape and (gasp) sex appeal without cramming themselves in to some spandex horror that exposes every bump and bulge.

[mightysparrow]

1 hour ago, DaphneCat said:

YES!  You just stated what I was trying to say but didn't.  Designers that only have one style or type of design aren't really designers, they are sewers who've found their niche.  Women with boobs can't wear dresses or tops with tiny triangles of fabric.  Most women do NOT want their hips and butts to look bigger.  That black and white dress they loved would ONLY work on the skinny model.  Anyone with an actual shape would have looked ridiculous.  Most women are not 5' 10" or above and not all short people are also tiny.  A lot of the designers don't put on sleeves (which, for some reason, even thin women want occasionally🙄) because it is extra work to fit them properly.  

When Christian won his season, I didn't have that high of hopes for him because it seemed really focused on fashion for very thin women.  He has since really grown as a designer and really makes clothes a lot of people could actually wear.

Yes, just because older women tend to want things like actual sleeves, bodices that aren't open to the navel, and micro mini skirts does not meant we want beige muumuus!  Older women can wear color!  They can wear print!  They can even wear body conscious dresses that show they have a shape and (gasp) sex appeal without cramming themselves in to some spandex horror that exposes every bump and bulge.

I've been a size 6 or 8 most of my life and I've noticed that 'larger' women will say things like this to me while complaining about body shaming.  It seems to be okay to tell a thin woman she doesn't have an 'actual shape'.  I've had large women tell me that I have no hips for most of my life when I know that's not true.  My hips occupy the space between my waist and my thighs.

It works both ways.

I feel the need to make a correction.  Most WHITE women don't want their butts to look bigger.  An awful lot of Black women (and women copying Black women's style) DO.

I agree with you about older women.  Most people can't tell my age by looking at me (Black really DOESN'T crack) and I see no reason to wear what society thinks is acceptable for 'older' women.  The fact that I would never wear spray painted leggings as pants outside of a gym has nothing to do with my age and everything to do with my sense of style.

Edited April 28, 2019 by mightysparrow

[mightysparrow]

19 hours ago, violet and green said:

I loathed Renee's look - and am beginning to think she truly is a one-way monkey.

Renee isn't a 'monkey'.

[DaphneCat]

1 minute ago, mightysparrow said:

Renee isn't a 'monkey'.

This goes back to Dmitry wanting to call Ven a one trick pony but getting the phrase wrong and calling him a one way monkey.  This is a PR specific JOKE - not a reference to any specific person.

[mightysparrow]

20 minutes ago, DaphneCat said:

This goes back to Dmitry wanting to call Ven a one trick pony but getting the phrase wrong and calling him a one way monkey.  This is a PR specific JOKE - not a reference to any specific person.

Sometimes a 'joke' can be a dog whistle.  Especially when it's used to describe the same person, TWICE.

[DaphneCat]

10 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

Sometimes a 'joke' can be a dog whistle.  Especially when it's used to describe the same person, TWICE.

Except it has also been used to describe white men and white women (and without going back and counting, I would guess it has been used to describe Michelle more than once).  On THIS forum it refers to a designer that uses the same designs over and over, PERIOD.

[auntlada]

4 minutes ago, DaphneCat said:

Except it has also been used to describe white men and white women (and without going back and counting, I would guess it has been used to describe Michelle more than once).  On THIS forum it refers to a designer that uses the same designs over and over, PERIOD.

I would guess that since Dmitry first said the phrase, it has been used by someone to describe every designer on every season of Project Runway (or All-Stars) at one time or another.

[mightysparrow]

19 minutes ago, DaphneCat said:

Except it has also been used to describe white men and white women (and without going back and counting, I would guess it has been used to describe Michelle more than once).  On THIS forum it refers to a designer that uses the same designs over and over, PERIOD.

I think the most simian designer is our girl Hester.

15 minutes ago, auntlada said:

I would guess that since Dmitry first said the phrase, it has been used by someone to describe every designer on every season of Project Runway (or All-Stars) at one time or another.

I can't wait,

[violet and green]

2 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

Sometimes a 'joke' can be a dog whistle.  Especially when it's used to describe the same person, TWICE.

Oh, good lord. It was a Dmitri joke reference. And if you want to simmer up a huge conspiracy of unpleasant hidden meaning - why don't you pour through the 1081 references to Hester in this thread alone. 

1 hour ago, mightysparrow said:

I think the most simian designer is our girl Hester.

Really. Ugh.

"One trick pony." Is not a horse reference. It's a common saying.

"One-way monkey." Is my divine Dmitri's attempt to recall the common English idiom.

[stormy weather]

For me, the issue with having plus-sized models on this show is the fact that if they decided to regularly include two "curvy" girls to show that fashion can look good also on bigger women, then I don't understand why they didn't also regularly include shorter models (I'm 5'3'' and NEVER have I known the joy of buying a pair of pants, a skirt, a dress or sometimes even a t-shirt that I didn't have to hem in order for it to fit me), older models (like someone on the forum already suggested), pear-apple, hour-glass, rectangle-shaped models, busty models, flat-butt models and so on. The only instance in which we see all these other body types represented on the show is in the "regular person" challenge. 

My point is that at the end of the day the show is called Project Runway, not Project Sidewalk, so it should either include ALL these body types, ALL the time (which I would absolutely love and prefer) or just stick to regular models and have the occasional episode where EVERY designer has to make clothes for plus-sized models, shorter models, older women and so on. The way it is now, it looks like the designer who gets the "curvy model" starts the challenge with the design equivalent of a golf handicap, and it shouldn't be that way.

On an unrelated note, weren't the clothes supposed to be inspired by what was in the bag? Can anyone explain to me how the monstrosity that was Hester's dress was supposed to have anything to do with peacock feathers? Or Tessa's with money, or Renee's (which I think I actually liked but who knows, we were only allowed to see it for a split second) with limes and lemons? And basically Sebastian's dress was a waaaay more elegant, more refined and better executed version (and in a more tasteful shade of pink) of Vinny's hot pink super plain tube dress, yet Vinny was in the top and Sebastian was merely safe. I swear this panel of judges is almost making me miss Heidi "antichrist of fashion" Klum and the rest of her team. Okay, I said "almost".

[mightysparrow]

Sigh.

Being offended by calling a Black woman a monkey seems to be a trigger.  I don't care if it's a sacred joke from the beginning of time.  I found it offensive.  Just like some people are offended by references to age and weight. 

I think Renee knows exactly how this game is played and she's keeping her head down and doing her thing.  She probably knows what happens when a Black woman draws too much attention to herself.

I think Renee's design was very elegant. Elegant doesn't ONLY mean 'formal'.   I think Renee is a very elegant woman.  Period.

Edited April 28, 2019 by mightysparrow

[PamelaMaeSnap]

Two questions/topics I'd love to throw out here for clarification or just thoughts from those who might be interested or know the answers: 

1) Is it totally my imagination or has the "size scale" slid upwards in, say, the last 40 years or so? One poster mentioned that she had worn a size 6 or 8 her entire life. I keep thinking that items that were, say, a 10 or 12 or 14 when I was young might now be an 8 or 6 or even a 4. I don't know if the average adult woman now versus 1970 or 1980 is bigger, wider, taller, "curvier" or whatever, or if designers are more afraid of offending people and thereby calling them a smaller size to make them feel better or it's totally in my head. 

I can't use my own self as a reference because, as mentioned, I have an older woman's body that has seen yoyo-dieting, baby-having, lox-like-living and gravity take its toll, so the boobs that were once horizontal are vertical and the tummy that was flat (ish) ... isn't, and where I once was ridiculously slim-hipped I now have a butt. So I can't really use my own size then vs. size now because I've gotten somewhat bigger but have REALLY redistributed. But, for example, Little Snappy is really curvy (not plus-sized, but super-generously-curvy) and she wears a Size 4, despite being way more bootylicious than I ever was even when I starved myself down to a 6. 

2) I may have missed someone (or more than one person) mentioning this but since I don't really know much about just how much fabric is priced, how much more it might take to dress, say, a Kate versus a petite model, but does anyone think that that ever might factor into a designer's decision? Especially after we just saw someone (was it Bishme?) go over budget with their fabric and have to scramble at the register under the clock gun.

PS Mighty Sparrow, totally with you on Renee. She is the epitome of quiet elegance. I adore her and just hope she doesn't fly TOO far under the radar. 

[caitmcg]

11 minutes ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

1) Is it totally my imagination or has the "size scale" slid upwards in, say, the last 40 years or so? One poster mentioned that she had worn a size 6 or 8 her entire life. I keep thinking that items that were, say, a 10 or 12 or 14 when I was young might now be an 8 or 6 or even a 4. I don't know if the average adult woman now versus 1970 or 1980 is bigger, wider, taller, "curvier" or whatever, or if designers are more afraid of offending people and thereby calling them a smaller size to make them feel better or it's totally in my head.

Yes, vanity sizing is a thing, at least among some retailers and brands.

[DaphneCat]

41 minutes ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Two questions/topics I'd love to throw out here for clarification or just thoughts from those who might be interested or know the answers: 

1) Is it totally my imagination or has the "size scale" slid upwards in, say, the last 40 years or so? One poster mentioned that she had worn a size 6 or 8 her entire life. I keep thinking that items that were, say, a 10 or 12 or 14 when I was young might now be an 8 or 6 or even a 4. I don't know if the average adult woman now versus 1970 or 1980 is bigger, wider, taller, "curvier" or whatever, or if designers are more afraid of offending people and thereby calling them a smaller size to make them feel better or it's totally in my head. 

I can't use my own self as a reference because, as mentioned, I have an older woman's body that has seen yoyo-dieting, baby-having, lox-like-living and gravity take its toll, so the boobs that were once horizontal are vertical and the tummy that was flat (ish) ... isn't, and where I once was ridiculously slim-hipped I now have a butt. So I can't really use my own size then vs. size now because I've gotten somewhat bigger but have REALLY redistributed. But, for example, Little Snappy is really curvy (not plus-sized, but super-generously-curvy) and she wears a Size 4, despite being way more bootylicious than I ever was even when I starved myself down to a 6. 

2) I may have missed someone (or more than one person) mentioning this but since I don't really know much about just how much fabric is priced, how much more it might take to dress, say, a Kate versus a petite model, but does anyone think that that ever might factor into a designer's decision? Especially after we just saw someone (was it Bishme?) go over budget with their fabric and have to scramble at the register under the clock gun.

1.  100% the size scale has slid up.  There is NO WAY (as a mature, body changed person) I am a size smaller than I was in college!  Most patterns have not changed sizing in many years (probably since the 70's.)  If you compare your body measurements on a size chart from a store (like LLBean or Eddie Bauer) with those on a pattern envelope, you will find you are at least one size (more than likely two sizes) larger using the pattern.  I have old patterns and I am definitely a size larger than I was in college so yes, vanity sizing has indeed occurred.

2.  Unless they are going from a VERY tiny size to VERY much larger (say from a size 2 to a size 20) they would not need that much extra fabric - 1 to 1 1/2 more yards at most.  (Most fabric is x amount wide if it is a small person you simply don't use all the width - for a larger person you use more of it.)   You would actually need more to clothe a tall woman versus a short woman or if you made a longer skirt than a shorter one (or say, pants versus a skirt).  Most of the fabric they are purchasing at Mood is NOT that expensive - the differential is probably less than $30.00

[meep.meep]

3 hours ago, auntlada said:

I would guess that since Dmitry first said the phrase, it has been used by someone to describe every designer on every season of Project Runway (or All-Stars) at one time or another.

I'm pretty sure that he first used it about Venn who was an Indian man also.

[mightysparrow]

52 minutes ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Two questions/topics I'd love to throw out here for clarification or just thoughts from those who might be interested or know the answers: 

1) Is it totally my imagination or has the "size scale" slid upwards in, say, the last 40 years or so? One poster mentioned that she had worn a size 6 or 8 her entire life. I keep thinking that items that were, say, a 10 or 12 or 14 when I was young might now be an 8 or 6 or even a 4. I don't know if the average adult woman now versus 1970 or 1980 is bigger, wider, taller, "curvier" or whatever, or if designers are more afraid of offending people and thereby calling them a smaller size to make them feel better or it's totally in my head. 

I can't use my own self as a reference because, as mentioned, I have an older woman's body that has seen yoyo-dieting, baby-having, lox-like-living and gravity take its toll, so the boobs that were once horizontal are vertical and the tummy that was flat (ish) ... isn't, and where I once was ridiculously slim-hipped I now have a butt. So I can't really use my own size then vs. size now because I've gotten somewhat bigger but have REALLY redistributed. But, for example, Little Snappy is really curvy (not plus-sized, but super-generously-curvy) and she wears a Size 4, despite being way more bootylicious than I ever was even when I starved myself down to a 6. 

2) I may have missed someone (or more than one person) mentioning this but since I don't really know much about just how much fabric is priced, how much more it might take to dress, say, a Kate versus a petite model, but does anyone think that that ever might factor into a designer's decision? Especially after we just saw someone (was it Bishme?) go over budget with their fabric and have to scramble at the register under the clock gun.

PS Mighty Sparrow, totally with you on Renee. She is the epitome of quiet elegance. I adore her and just hope she doesn't fly TOO far under the radar. 

1) Sizes have changed.  Today''s size 6 is much larger than a size 6 of 20 or even 10 years ago.  People often say that Marilyn Monroe was a size 14.  MM was no Audrey Hepburn but she'd drown in today's size 14.

2) Renee saw what happened to Nadine and has governed herself accordingly.  They practically sent Nadine to Gitmo for what she said about Kate while Tessa just got a stern talking-to for saying practically the exact same thing about the same crappy model.  Renee hasn't said 'boo' since.

1 minute ago, meep.meep said:

I'm pretty sure that he first used it about Venn who was an Indian man also.

Interesting.

[FormerMod-a1]

I would have liked to have seen more from Sonja.  Yes, her dress was boring, but it was lovely and well made.  I'm torn on Jamal's win.  I liked it, but that belly pouch in the front just was not good, imo.