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S08.E03: The Long Night

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1 hour ago, Law Mom said:

Also, just saying, Euron Greyjoy is the reason I don’t internet date.

Truth!

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On 5/2/2019 at 11:02 AM, Uncle JUICE said:

It was not. 

It completely changes the context of Sansa, because as it was shown she realized she could not lead outside the crypt because she is not trained to fight, then she goes in the crypt and does not offer one word of encouragement to her people.  At least Queen Elizabeth stayed in her castle during the Blitz and provided comforting and supporting statements to her people.  It told me in that scene that she really was not suitable to lead the North, it would need to be Jon.  Now what do I do with this new info.... do we dismiss it because it was edited out or do I go back to liking Sansa.??? So frustrating!

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24 minutes ago, Mardo2044 said:

I love that Arya is the Night King Slayer, completely appropriate twist!  But, I sort of had a thought of everyone dying by the end of the series and in the last episode her walking away from the devastation 6 months pregnant with Baratheon baby and a small band of misfit survivors.  Maybe her and Tyrion being the only surviving primary characters and a few known secondary characters.  Now that she is the NK slayer, I think my dream ending unlikely.

I just really don’t see her having babies and being happy homemaker with Gendry. 

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1 minute ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I just really don’t see her having babies and being happy homemaker with Gendry. 

Me neither, she would have the one oops from Gendry and he would be dead.  She would run battle tactics with, like I said, a few misfit survivors.  But doubtful that is the ending with her major role in ep 3.  Oh well, one can dream!

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8 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I think it's interesting that people think the gates of Winterfell face north.  I've always assumed they faced south and that the army of the dead went around the castle and assembled facing the gates (so team dead was looking north.)  I can't tell you why I thought that but I suspect that that is the mental geography I have had ever since the scene of the King's entourage arriving through the gates in the first episode.  They came from the south so I thought the gates faced south. 

That was my assumption too. The main gates definitely face south and it looked to be the same main gates to me as we've never seen the northern entrance/exit of Winterfell before. 

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1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

That was my assumption too. The main gates definitely face south and it looked to be the same main gates to me as we've never seen the northern entrance/exit of Winterfell before. 

Obviously, Winterfell was built in violation of Northern fire safety codes...Only one exit...unless you jump off the wall into a snowbank.....

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3 hours ago, paigow said:

Obviously, Winterfell was built in violation of Northern fire safety codes...Only one exit...unless you jump off the wall into a snowbank.....

You mean that wasn't the emergency exit?

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On 5/2/2019 at 11:07 AM, Constantinople said:

a much simpler explanation is that Jon directed "Go" is at Viserion and means "Go away" or "Go and take your best shot" by an exhausted an demoralized man who believes it's all over and all his hard work has gone to shit (similar to Jon telling Melisandre not to resurrect him again if he's killed at the Battle of the Bastards).

Agree. It is really concerning how desperate some of the fandom is to have the man be the hero. 

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19 minutes ago, BooBear said:

Agree. It is really concerning how desperate some of the fandom is to have the man be the hero. 

If this isn’t a reveal in Ep4 then it didn’t happen.  Simple as that.  

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9 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I just really don’t see her having babies and being happy homemaker with Gendry. 

I always presumed the coda for Arya's story would be her alone on a boat heading west over the sunset sea, she mentions it very early in the series. To me that's the appropriate final shot of the series. 

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45 minutes ago, BooBear said:

Agree. It is really concerning how desperate some of the fandom is to have the man be the hero. 

I can see both sides. When Arya is getting every hero moment it starts to veer dangerously close to Mary Sue territory. For me, her killing the Night King was anti-climactic. Not because she's a woman or because her arc had nothing to do with the WW's but because the show becomes predictable from here on out. We already know Cersei's been on Arya's list for years so naturally she'll have some hand in killing her. Why not just have her sneak into King's Landing and be done with it? At this point she might as well kill the Mountain too, because subverting expectations and all...

I think the whole thing kind of screwed Jon's entire story because what's left for him? He never cared about the Iron Throne, he doesn't want to rule Westeros and he apparently was brought back from the dead to distract a dragon.

I would've been okay if Jon and the NK had a knock-out, drag down sword fight and Arya got the save when it appeared Jon was defeated, but for Jon to spend the final minutes of the battle hiding behind rocks feels a bit hollow. Mileage will vary, of course.

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11 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Why?

Who says if the Night King besieged Winterfell, that he would place the wights and Walkers within striking distance of Winterfell's walls?

Well they were, they literally stormed the castle.  The Winterfell gang  just did a piss poor job of defending it.  But to be fair, the NK had his dragon.  I was talking about a scenario where dragons weren't a part of the equation.

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5 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Well they were, they literally stormed the castle.  The Winterfell gang  just did a piss poor job of defending it.  But to be fair, the NK had his dragon.  I was talking about a scenario where dragons weren't a part of the equation.

But somone's point was that the Night King shouldn't have stormed the castle. He should have waited it out. He's been waiting thousands of years. In comparison, a multi-year siege is nothing. Sooner or later the people in Winterfell would starve to death, or they'd be forced to attack the Army of the Dead.

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24 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

When Arya is getting every hero moment it starts to veer dangerously close to Mary Sue territory.

When has Arya had every hero moment?

Did she save the day at the Battles of Blackwater Bay, the Fist of the First Men, Castle Black, the Bastards, Hardhome or the Loot Train?

Did she free the slaves in Slavers' Bay?

Did she save the Magnificent Seven on their stupid quest to capture a wight to show to Cersei?

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16 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I think it's interesting that people think the gates of Winterfell face north.  I've always assumed they faced south and that the army of the dead went around the castle and assembled facing the gates (so team dead was looking north.)  I can't tell you why I thought that but I suspect that that is the mental geography I have had ever since the scene of the King's entourage arriving through the gates in the first episode.  They came from the south so I thought the gates faced south. 

That may be, but then it's a bid odd no one mentioned or noticed the Army of the Dead had traveled south of Winterfell, and then wondered if the Army of the Dead was going to bypass Winterfell entirely

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5 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

When has Arya had every hero moment?

You could argue Walder Fray but there is no way she has had every hero moment. It is Jon who has a hand in EVERYTHING... despite not really being good at anything. 

It is Jon who is the Mary Stu. 

16 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

But somone's point was that the Night King shouldn't have stormed the castle.

I would have been amazing to me if he just avoided Winterfell totally. Just walked on down to Kings Landing.  Didn't love the idea he was after the three eyed raven but even if he was, seems logical that he would see what was waiting for him and just go the other way. 

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10 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Did she save the Magnificent Seven on their stupid quest to capture a wight to show to Cersei?

I must have blinked and missed Denzel / Yul Brynner....

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Arya's had basically all the significant hero moments of the last several seasons. Killing Walder Frey, avenging the Red Wedding, taking out Baelish, killing the Night King and we all know she's killing Cersei. I should've clarified I meant S6-S8 in my comment.

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6 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Arya's had basically all the significant hero moments of the last several seasons. Killing Walder Frey, avenging the Red Wedding, taking out Baelish, killing the Night King and we all know she's killing Cersei. I should've clarified I meant S6-S8 in my comment.

Killing Walder Frey and avenging the Red Wedding is the same thing, or 2 stages of the same plan. And typically feeding someone cannibal pie isn't considered heroic. Nor, traditionally, is poisoning people.

Arya acted as the executioner when taking out Baelish. No other executioner in the series has been described as heroic: Ned, Ilyn Payne, Theon, Robb, Jon, Daario, etc. Moreover, the whole Arya-Sansa-Baelish storyline was handled so badly by the writers that no one comes off as heroic unless heroic = stupid.

Edited by Constantinople
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1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

I can see both sides. When Arya is getting every hero moment it starts to veer dangerously close to Mary Sue territory. For me, her killing the Night King was anti-climactic. Not because she's a woman or because her arc had nothing to do with the WW's but because the show becomes predictable from here on out. We already know Cersei's been on Arya's list for years so naturally she'll have some hand in killing her. Why not just have her sneak into King's Landing and be done with it? At this point she might as well kill the Mountain too, because subverting expectations and all...

There's no reason at all to assume Arya will have anything to do with killing Cersei. You're accusing her of hogging glory by making kills she hasn't made.

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

I would've been okay if Jon and the NK had a knock-out, drag down sword fight and Arya got the save when it appeared Jon was defeated, but for Jon to spend the final minutes of the battle hiding behind rocks feels a bit hollow. Mileage will vary, of course.

And yet the the showrunners all talk about how in their pov Jon is always getting hero moments and they spent half the battle trying to make him look cool. The whole reason it's even talked about is that it's assumed Jon is entitled to making the kill. It seems like you're giving Arya's moments more weight when the show is actually very much keeping her in her lane--the lane that led to her doing this thing. I mean, of these four:

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

Arya's had basically all the significant hero moments of the last several seasons. Killing Walder Frey, avenging the Red Wedding, taking out Baelish, killing the Night King and we all know she's killing Cersei. I should've clarified I meant S6-S8 in my comment.

The killing of Frey was a great sneaky assassin move of revenge, but I wouldn't consider it a big hero moment like killing the Night King. But even if you do see it that way, she certainly wasn't the hero of the Bealish story just because she was the person who executed him. Sansa's even the one given center stage in the scene. And nobody's killed Cersei so she doesn't get credit for that either.

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5 hours ago, BooBear said:

Agree. It is really concerning how desperate some of the fandom is to have the man be the hero. 

I would agree except Jon is a hero. Most all who have encountered him in his world agree, as do I.  A hero doesn’t have to win every battle, s/he just needs to stay true to his/her convictions and try.

Edited by taurusrose
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Arya being the killer without any buildup whatsoever between arya and the walkers, is bad writing. The fact that they didn't even know Arya was the killer till three years ago which was after Hard home was written and shot, not a good thing. 

And unless Dany gets a surprise Cersei kill, Arya's gonna get that too. Meaning that she will have both of the main villains in this series.  Please tell me any other series where a side character did something close to this?

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12 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I would agree except Jon is a hero. Most all who have encountered him in his world agree, as do I.  A hero doesn’t have to win every battle, s/he just needs to stay true to his/her convictions and try.

I really don't see why he is a hero. Other than the plot / fans demand it. Everything he does is piss poor and he just "lucks out" constantly.  The people that killed him didn't think he was a hero. The 49% of the nights watch that didn't elect him leader - didn't think so.  Sansa won the battle of the bastards but he got the credit. He bent the knee to Dany and most of the north is still mad at him for doing so. 

Ned Stark stayed trued to his convictions and doomed most of his family because of his "convictions". To me, that is a fool. Jon takes after him. 

But the "go go" theory is straight up lame and I can't see anyone taking it seriously -- unless that is, they are desperate to somehow give Jon credit for the NK kill. 

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20 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Arya being the killer without any buildup whatsoever between arya and the walkers, is bad writing. The fact that they didn't even know Arya was the killer till three years ago which was after Hard home was written and shot, not a good thing. 

I don't understand why she needs any buildup with the walkers. This isn't a personal vendetta. Everybody on the battlefield has a reason to want to kill the NK.

And if they didn't know she was going to do it until 3 years ago that means they didn't know *who* was going to do it three years ago. Anybody, according to those rules, would have not been good.  They spent three years establishing everything that she used or was done in this ep to kill the NK.

20 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

And unless Dany gets a surprise Cersei kill, Arya's gonna get that too. Meaning that she will have both of the main villains in this series.  Please tell me any other series where a side character did something close to this?

I don't understand why I should even assume she's going to kill Cersei. Personally, I've been expecting Jaime to do it. It's never even occurred to me to expect Arya to do it. Cersei isn't a hard-to-kill villain like the NK. She needs to be defeated, not killed. Even if Jaime were the one to kill her she'd be defeated because of more what Jon represents--the way he builds a coalition--than what Cersei does (leading through fear and strength). The NK was right in Arya's wheelhouse. Cersei's more in the part of the story that's about political intrigue and what being a king or queen means. She's not physically hard to take down at all.

Arya's been established more as a killer than a hero. She did save everyone in this scene, but her story until now seems like it's been more about her being a vengeful, fearful person who was in danger of just being a killer (iow, being the waif) but she came back from that by turning away from that and claiming the things that were important to her, her relationships.

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27 minutes ago, BooBear said:

The people that killed him didn't think he was a hero. The 49% of the nights watch that didn't elect him leader - didn't think so.

The people who killed him were xenophobic traitors, and 97% of the Nights Watch were rapists/murderers/various other shitbags. No weight given to the opinions of shitbags. 

Jon is a hero regardless of who struck the final blow against the NK, so I'm glad it was Arya.

At the end of the day that opportunity to kill the NK was only possible by way of 1) the accumulation of living troops and 2) the intel they had re: fighting the WW/AotD - and both were a direct result of Jon's efforts.

Hero.

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7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't understand why she needs any buildup with the walkers. This isn't a personal vendetta. Everybody on the battlefield has a reason to want to kill the NK.

This is exactly my problem with all of the people saying it should have been Jon. This is the battle on the show that isn't personal. (I didn't like the NK smirking -- that is the first time we saw that) The NK is just going about what he needs to do and Jon is doing what he needs to do.  To the extent that Jon has some personal animus, Jon has always taken on the NK when he was lacking back up. Caught off guard. Not sufficiently prepared. Under those circumstances yes.. the NK is a significant threat. But this is the first time Jon brought a serious challenge filled with various and sundry threats to the NK. Thousands of people armed with dragon glass and information about them all going all out with the only goal to kill them all. Is there any evidence that the night king knows who Jon is personally other than a living?  

To me a lot of the people who dislike it want the night king to be this kind of human like thing that holds personal vendettas and that is why they want it to be Jon. But I never really saw that on the show. They also wanted the night king of have some sort of massive powers and while he isn't stupid he isn't this massive unstoppable thing.  

They look to the last walkers invasion but isn't possible that the last time was so devastating because people were not as prepared as they were this time?

If Jon hadn't been around and gotten people to listen the nights king would have just slowly and quietly killed until millions of the dead showed up at Kings Landing and they would not have been prepared to fight them off. 
 

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20 minutes ago, Drogo said:

The people who killed him were xenophobic traitors, and 97% of the Nights Watch were rapists/murderers/various other shitbags. No weight given to the opinions of shitbags. 

And Jon knew he was risking that reaction. That, to me, seems like one of the main things that marks Jon as a hero, the way he's always ready to bring grief to himself or reject personal glory for the greater goal. It's not always the best thing to do in every situation, especially the way he goes about it, but it's usually done for a good reason, imo. Too much honor can lead to disaster, as we saw with Ned, but in the long run Ned's attitude was more reliable than the short term clever or ruthless schemes of plenty of other characters.

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40 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't understand why she needs any buildup with the walkers. This isn't a personal vendetta. Everybody on the battlefield has a reason to want to kill the NK.

And if they didn't know she was going to do it until 3 years ago that means they didn't know *who* was going to do it three years ago. Anybody, according to those rules, would have not been good.  They spent three years establishing everything that she used or was done in this ep to kill the NK.

I don't understand why I should even assume she's going to kill Cersei. Personally, I've been expecting Jaime to do it. It's never even occurred to me to expect Arya to do it. Cersei isn't a hard-to-kill villain like the NK. She needs to be defeated, not killed. Even if Jaime were the one to kill her she'd be defeated because of more what Jon represents--the way he builds a coalition--than what Cersei does (leading through fear and strength). The NK was right in Arya's wheelhouse. Cersei's more in the part of the story that's about political intrigue and what being a king or queen means. She's not physically hard to take down at all.

Arya's been established more as a killer than a hero. She did save everyone in this scene, but her story until now seems like it's been more about her being a vengeful, fearful person who was in danger of just being a killer (iow, being the waif) but she came back from that by turning away from that and claiming the things that were important to her, her relationships.

You don't build up a villain over seven years, spend the majority of that time building up a rivalry with someone else because you change your mind HALFWAY THROUGH THE STORY, just because the hero you chose wasn't surprising enough. 

They didn't build up Arya  at all for this event. They just turned her into a bad ass and hoped people would ignore the lack of build up. 

Brown eyes, green eyes , blue eyes, they're dropping anvils that Arya's killing Cersei. I suspect the only reason why anybody think Jaime's a viable suspect is because of the valonqur thing from the books which isn't even a thing on the show.

Fan service and subverting expectations was all that was about.

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3 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

They didn't build up Arya  at all for this event. They just turned her into a bad ass and hoped people would ignore the lack of build up. 

If Arya wasn't intended to assassinate the NK, then what was the purpose of turning her into an assassin?  Just to kill the Freys?

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Just now, izabella said:

If Arya wasn't intended to assassinate the NK, then what was the purpose of turning her into an assassin?  Just to kill the Freys?

She was an assassin way before they knew she would kill the Night King. I assume that they turned her into an assassin to get to Cersei, and whatever other crowd pleasing assassinations they could pull off.

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5 hours ago, BooBear said:

It is Jon who has a hand in EVERYTHING... despite not really being good at anything. 

The cave-scene back in S3 made it clear that Jon is indeed good at (and does know) something.

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37 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

You don't build up a villain over seven years, spend the majority of that time building up a rivalry with someone else because you change your mind HALFWAY THROUGH THE STORY, just because the hero you chose wasn't surprising enough. 

They didn't build up Arya  at all for this event. They just turned her into a bad ass and hoped people would ignore the lack of build up. 

Brown eyes, green eyes , blue eyes, they're dropping anvils that Arya's killing Cersei. I suspect the only reason why anybody think Jaime's a viable suspect is because of the valonqur thing from the books which isn't even a thing on the show.

Fan service and subverting expectations was all that was about.

The Night King didn't even appear until Season 4, and Jon never set eyes on him until Season 5 at Hardhome. Arguably Bran's interacted more with the Night King via visions and such (and the attack on Max Von Sydow's home in Season 6).

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42 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Brown eyes, green eyes , blue eyes, they're dropping anvils that Arya's killing Cersei. I suspect the only reason why anybody think Jaime's a viable suspect is because of the valonqur thing from the books which isn't even a thing on the show.

We should consider "green eyes" in a prophecy that's already been detonated to tell Arya, who has already killed people of all those eye colors presumably, that she should go kill the NK to be dropping anvils but describe a character who's been training to be a ninja assassin who kills for 7 years as lacking the build up to kill the character nobody can get close enough to to kill? That seems a bit arbitrary.

I lean towards Jaime killing Cersei because of their relationship and his character development, not because of any prophecy. I could also believe an ending where she wasn't killed at all. But I lean toward him because it would mean he was choosing to kill the one he grew up loving the most because they were too damaging to others or something like that. Cersei is not a big bad like a dragon or the NK.

34 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

She was an assassin way before they knew she would kill the Night King. I assume that they turned her into an assassin to get to Cersei, and whatever other crowd pleasing assassinations they could pull off.

I think they turned her into an assassin because her character arc was about exploring the dark side of that warrior she wanted to become from the beginning. She was afraid and powerless and being able to kill made her feel unafraid and powerful. But she became a good warrior by choosing to retain her identity and fight with her family and her people that she loved instead of becoming just a tool of death. Arya doesn't have to kill everyone on her list. She even saved the life of the Hound.

You don't need all those techniques to kill Cersei. She could die the same way her father did.

Arya is a warrior. Jon is a leader.

Edited by sistermagpie
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39 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

She was an assassin way before they knew she would kill the Night King. I assume that they turned her into an assassin to get to Cersei, and whatever other crowd pleasing assassinations they could pull off.

She wasn't, though.  She fought, to the best of her ability, to protect herself or to kill bad guys who were bad to her, just like every other person in Westeros who could wield a knife or sword, but she only became an assassin after completing her training with the Faceless, which took years.  Upon her return to Westeros, she assassinated the Freys, and then was planning to go to Cersei, but heard from Hot Pie that Jon was at WF and went there instead.  The Freys were her main assassinations since becoming a full-fledged assassin.  The show sent her to learn to become an assassin, probably because that was in the books and GRRM also told them at some point he intended for Arya to kill the NK with her mad assassin skillz.  (I have not read the books, so I don't know what is or isn't in them, but assume a long arc as Arya's training to be a FM was in there.)

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34 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

You don't build up a villain over seven years, spend the majority of that time building up a rivalry with someone else because you change your mind HALFWAY THROUGH THE STORY, just because the hero you chose wasn't surprising enough. 

That's the thing tho, there was no Jon vs NK rivalry. If anything it was Bran vs NK or more accurately NK hunting Bran. There was never any indication the NK cared one iota about Jon but rather Snow was just someone on the battlefield in his way. Jon himself didnt ever seem to have feelings about the NK himself personally ie "I'm going to get that guy" but was all about living vs dead and how the living could win. I think it's fans who built Jon up as having to kill the NK not the story itself. 

36 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

They didn't build up Arya  at all for this event. They just turned her into a bad ass and hoped people would ignore the lack of build up. 

Her story arc was going from literally a scared, traumatized little girl who watched her father's head get cut off into thru force of events being trained as a Faceless Man. She's automatically a known bad ass after that training and those experiences. In fact, she's about 100x more capable/suited to killing the NK than Jon would have been. Arya sneaking up and then pulling a slick knife trick to kill him is far more 'realistic' than a 1v1 fight vs Jon. The NK would annihilate Jon with ease. Period. For them to have had Jon manage to kill him would have very much broken who the characters were supposed to be.  NK a 10,000yr old undead, demonic being that could take dragons out by throwing a spear vs Jon the high level swordsman who may not have been able to beat prime Jaime, The Hound, The Mountain, maybe not Jorah, who knows about Bron, maybe not Tormund, definitely not the Morning Star etc etc. Arya killing him the way she did was good storytelling.

Last, not sure why everyone assumes Cersei will die let alone at Arya's hand. Who knows maybe she wins?

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36 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

You don't build up a villain over seven years, spend the majority of that time building up a rivalry with someone else because you change your mind HALFWAY THROUGH THE STORY, just because the hero you chose wasn't surprising enough. 

They didn't build up Arya  at all for this event. They just turned her into a bad ass and hoped people would ignore the lack of build up. 

Brown eyes, green eyes , blue eyes, they're dropping anvils that Arya's killing Cersei. I suspect the only reason why anybody think Jaime's a viable suspect is because of the valonqur thing from the books which isn't even a thing on the show.

Fan service and subverting expectations was all that was about.

I think that's what I'm struggling with as well. If we didn't get that Melisandre/Arya scene inside Winterfell and Arya killed the Night King simply because she had the first opportunity, then fine, I can live with that. Instead, we basically learn this has been Arya's destiny all along (brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes), making everything Jon endured completely meaningless. Hardhome meant nothing. Beyond the Wall meant nothing because Cersei didn't sent her troops. Bending the knee to Dany meant nothing because her forces got anilihated in the first five minutes. Being brought back from the dead meant nothing because it wasn't Jon's destiny to kill the Night King in the first place. So what was the point? His entire character arc got blown to shit. 

Even Maisie Williams said she was conflicted when the cast did the table read and she found out the ending.

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3 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

In fact, she's about 100x more capable/suited to killing the NK than Jon would have been. Arya sneaking up and then pulling a slick knife trick to kill him is far more 'realistic' than a 1v1 fight vs Jon. The NK would annihilate Jon with ease. Period. For them to have had Jon manage to kill him would have very much broken who the characters were supposed to be.  NK a 10,000yr old undead, demonic being that could take dragons out by throwing a spear vs Jon the high level swordsman who may not have been able to beat prime Jaime, The Hound, The Mountain, maybe not Jorah, who knows about Bron, maybe not Tormund, definitely not the Morning Star etc etc. Arya killing him the way she did was good storytelling.

When Jon and the other attacked the mutineers at Craster's Keep, Jon couldn't even beat Karl one-on-one. Karl was putting a beat down on Jon's ass, and would have killed Jon if one of Craster's widows hadn't stabbed Karl in the back

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5 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Hardhome meant nothing.

Hardhome showed that White Walkers could be killed with Valyrian steel, which is how the Night King killed, with Valyrian steel

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4 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I think that's what I'm struggling with as well. If we didn't get that Melisandre/Arya scene inside Winterfell and Arya killed the Night King simply because she had the first opportunity, then fine, I can live with that. Instead, we basically learn this has been Arya's destiny all along (brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes), making everything Jon endured completely meaningless. Hardhome meant nothing. Beyond the Wall meant nothing because Cersei didn't sent her troops. Bending the knee to Dany meant nothing because her forces got anilihated in the first five minutes. Being brought back from the dead meant nothing because it wasn't Jon's destiny to kill the Night King in the first place. So what was the point? His entire character arc got blown to shit. 

Even Maisie Williams said she was conflicted when the cast did the table read and she found out the ending.

Jon's arc was to bring everyone together to the battle so the NK could be killed.  Without Jon?  Everyone would have been minding their own Westerosi business instead of putting the pieces in place to kill the NK.  NK would have found Bran and humanity would be done.

Even Arya wouldn't have been at WF if she hadn't first been told Jon was there.  She went to WF to see Jon instead of to KL to kill Cersei.

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8 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I think that's what I'm struggling with as well. If we didn't get that Melisandre/Arya scene inside Winterfell and Arya killed the Night King simply because she had the first opportunity, then fine, I can live with that. Instead, we basically learn this has been Arya's destiny all along (brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes), making everything Jon endured completely meaningless. Hardhome meant nothing. Beyond the Wall meant nothing because Cersei didn't sent her troops. Bending the knee to Dany meant nothing because her forces got anilihated in the first five minutes. Being brought back from the dead meant nothing because it wasn't Jon's destiny to kill the Night King in the first place. So what was the point? His entire character arc got blown to shit. 

Nah that is looking at entirety of situation as solely the instant NK died and who killed him (it?). Jon was the major factor in making it all happen, without him there'd never have been a chance for Arya to do what she did. Without Jon no one would have realized threat before it was too late and Arya would have been randomly killed by Walkers somewhere along the way like everyone else (or she'd have escaped and gone into hiding). Jon saved the world of the living for sure, he's just not the person who killed the NK. And yes, Arya too can be credited for saving mankind for obvious reasons- but Jon is the person who made it possible.

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5 hours ago, BooBear said:

I really don't see why he is a hero. Other than the plot / fans demand it. Everything he does is piss poor and he just "lucks out" constantly.  The people that killed him didn't think he was a hero. The 49% of the nights watch that didn't elect him leader - didn't think so.  Sansa won the battle of the bastards but he got the credit. He bent the knee to Dany and most of the north is still mad at him for doing so. 

Ned Stark stayed trued to his convictions and doomed most of his family because of his "convictions". To me, that is a fool. Jon takes after him. 

But the "go go" theory is straight up lame and I can't see anyone taking it seriously -- unless that is, they are desperate to somehow give Jon credit for the NK kill. 

These are all arguments that have been made and defended (many times by me in previous season threads) too many times to count.  I’m sorry, but I don’t want to take them up again. I am not going to change your mind (I don’t want to) and you’re not going to change mine. The narrative is Jon’s a hero. You don’t like it, but it is what it is. Unless the narrative changes in the next few episodes, let’s just agree to disagree.

Edited by taurusrose
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1 hour ago, izabella said:

  Upon her return to Westeros, she assassinated the Freys, and then was planning to go to Cersei, but heard from Hot Pie that Jon was at WF and went there instead. 

That alone, to me, says that Arya killing Cersei isn't any big plan. It was laid out as something that was distracting her from what she really cared about. She chose the people she loved over a woman she hated.

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

I think that's what I'm struggling with as well. If we didn't get that Melisandre/Arya scene inside Winterfell and Arya killed the Night King simply because she had the first opportunity, then fine, I can live with that. Instead, we basically learn this has been Arya's destiny all along (brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes), making everything Jon endured completely meaningless. Hardhome meant nothing. Beyond the Wall meant nothing because Cersei didn't sent her troops. Bending the knee to Dany meant nothing because her forces got anilihated in the first five minutes. Being brought back from the dead meant nothing because it wasn't Jon's destiny to kill the Night King in the first place. So what was the point? His entire character arc got blown to shit. 

Even Maisie Williams said she was conflicted when the cast did the table read and she found out the ending.

but none of those things meant nothing. Jon is the entire reason everyone is there defending the North from the NK. Sure Arya happens to be the person who puts the knife in him, but the rest of the battle wasn't just meaningless. It set the stage where she could do it. The NK died at the battle of Winterfell--he even died according to the plan Jon (and others) approved, using Bran as bait. Jon thought the plan had failed when he couldn't get to Bran, but it turned out the plan worked without Jon in that specific role. In fact, it worked better.

I mean, if Jon had gotten to the Godwood and killed the NK in a battle, wouldn't that make the rest of the battle just as useless as it allegedly is now? In both cases the thing that ends it is somebody killing the NK.

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8 hours ago, Constantinople said:

The Night King didn't even appear until Season 4, and Jon never set eyes on him until Season 5 at Hardhome. Arguably Bran's interacted more with the Night King via visions and such (and the attack on Max Von Sydow's home in Season 6).

He was on the wall since season 1 and has been having encounters with stuff north of the wall ever since culminating with Hardhome and yes Bran interacted more, but it's established he's not a fighter and won't defend himself.  Even with all of that it was ultimately the Night Kings obsession with Bran that led to his downfall

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

We should consider "green eyes" in a prophecy that's already been detonated to tell Arya, who has already killed people of all those eye colors presumably, that she should go kill the NK to be dropping anvils but describe a character who's been training to be a ninja assassin who kills for 7 years as lacking the build up to kill the character nobody can get close enough to to kill? That seems a bit arbitrary.

They bought back said throwaway saying and repurposed it to use here when it was clearly being used to show that she'd be a ruthless killer nothing more (if not then mellisandre's a sadist who gets her kicks from burning kids alive). I don't think that they'd have any problems double winking by  recycling the saying again  for green eyed Cersei.

8 hours ago, tv-talk said:

That's the thing tho, there was no Jon vs NK rivalry. If anything it was Bran vs NK or more accurately NK hunting Bran. There was never any indication the NK cared one iota about Jon but rather Snow was just someone on the battlefield in his way. Jon himself didnt ever seem to have feelings about the NK himself personally ie "I'm going to get that guy" but was all about living vs dead and how the living could win. I think it's fans who built Jon up as having to kill the NK not the story itself. 

Jon was the defender of the wall against all things, Night King was the leader of the things beyond the wall. Hardhome set up Night King vs Jon, big time. Night King taking an interest in Jon after Jon killed one of his generals, Night King almost taunting Jon by showing off his powers, etc etc.  Jons whole storyline has revolved against defending the wall and being above politics because they must stop whats beyond the wall. They set up the rivalry themselves then changed their mind after.  That's sloppy story writing.

8 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Her story arc was going from literally a scared, traumatized little girl who watched her father's head get cut off into thru force of events being trained as a Faceless Man. She's automatically a known bad ass after that training and those experiences. In fact, she's about 100x more capable/suited to killing the NK than Jon would have been. Arya sneaking up and then pulling a slick knife trick to kill him is far more 'realistic' than a 1v1 fight vs Jon. The NK would annihilate Jon with ease. Period. For them to have had Jon manage to kill him would have very much broken who the characters were supposed to be.  NK a 10,000yr old undead, demonic being that could take dragons out by throwing a spear vs Jon the high level swordsman who may not have been able to beat prime Jaime, The Hound, The Mountain, maybe not Jorah, who knows about Bron, maybe not Tormund, definitely not the Morning Star etc etc. Arya killing him the way she did was good storytelling. 

Not even going to argue realism. Because if you want to do that, then we'd have to get into how she was able to sneak past all white walkers on her way to the Night King, especially when she could barely sneak out of the library with a few of them.   The mechanics of what happened or how it happened doesn't bother me, good enough writer can justify anybody beating anybody with enough development. My problem is with the buildup, don't develop a story to go a certain way just to change direction without explanation just to have a gotcha moment.

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22 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

They bought back said throwaway saying and repurposed it to use here when it was clearly being used to show that she'd be a ruthless killer nothing more (if not then mellisandre's a sadist who gets her kicks from burning kids alive). I don't think that they'd have any problems double winking by  recycling the saying again in use for green eyed Cersei.

They could do that, sure, but I wouldn't call that an anvil. It would be telling the same joke twice. Blue eyes has far more meaning than green eyes because the blue here is the unnatural blue of the NK and his army. I'm not saying that Arya couldn't kill Cersei, but it's not going to figure into my thoughts on this ep until it actually happens.

24 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Jon was the defender of the wall against all things, Night King was the leader of the things beyond the wall. Hardhome set up Night King vs Jon, big time. Night King taking an interest in Jon after Jon killed one of his generals, Night King almost taunting Jon by showing off his powers, etc etc.  Jons whole storyline has revolved against defending the wall and being above politics because they must stop whats beyond the wall. They set up the rivalry themselves then changed their mind after.  That's sloppy story writing.

I disagree the scene had to be setting up a rivalry between them and so it's sloppy. Imo, it directly supports what Jon's story is even as described above. Jon, as you say, is mostly interested in defending the people. What I got from HH wasn't that Jon had to kill the NK himself or that the NK was taunting this one guy, but that Jon was terrified that the land would be lost to the NK because he was too powerful. Jon's whole thing is that he's never defending his own personal position, he's just genuinely afraid that the people will be slaughtered and they will lose. But he had doubts that he could ever beat an enemy this powerful. And the NK was like yes, you're right, you can never defeat me because look at how powerful I am. I use your own dead against you etc. This battle seemed like it was the same thing again. Jon tried to reach the NK in the conventional way and failed. Then he tried to get to the Godswood and failed.

But Jon wasn't alone. The fight wasn't about him and the NK. Jon had brought all these people together to beat him and in the end that's how they won, because Jon didn't have to face him alone and prove himself a better fighter. He beat what was beyond the wall by being above politics and bringing old enemies and strangers together. Jon's reaction to this threat has always been to get other people to believe him and take it seriously.

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2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:
4 hours ago, izabella said:

Upon her return to Westeros, she assassinated the Freys, and then was planning to go to Cersei, but heard from Hot Pie that Jon was at WF and went there instead. 

That alone, to me, says that Arya killing Cersei isn't any big plan. It was laid out as something that was distracting her from what she really cared about. She chose the people she loved over a woman she hated.

I always loved that scene at the inn; Arya's sitting there all emotionless and stoic, just shoving food in her mouth, all "mummpf...nom nom...going to kill Cersei...nom nom" until Hot Pie mentions Jon, and then her face completely changes. 

I've been flip-flopping since S7 over who I thought would be the one to kill Cersei, and for a while I thought it was definitely going to be Jamie. But right before TLN aired I was playing around with my "who will live, who will die" list, and that made me think of Arya's list. I figuratively smacked myself upside the head and said to myself "you idiot...of course it's going to be Arya! It will be revenge for her father! Maybe she'll wear Littlefinger's face and it'll be even more epic!" But now, I don't think that's going to happen. I can't see the show giving Arya BOTH of the big kills this season.

I actually hope it's not Jamie, though. Or Tyrion. That fucking family (TM Bronn) has done enough to each other. I'd much rather at this point that it doesn't come down to one person. If it can't be Arya, then I think I'd like it to be all the common people of King's Landing. All those who Cersei treated like the scum on the bottom of her shoe since the beginning. All those who lost loved ones when she blew up the Sept. If they somehow manage to let a mob get hold of Cersei, let them drag her through the streets, and the last thing we see is them carrying her away, I'd laugh and laugh and laugh. 

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4 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Shit

I have green eyes

* hides in fear *

I have blue eyes. I've been hiding with Tomund for a while now. 

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1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Night King taking an interest in Jon after Jon killed one of his generals,

The Night King had a choice between staying and facing Jon, or going after Bran. The Night King chose Bran, and raised and sent some wights after Jon.

Jon simply isn't a priority for the Night King

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1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

My problem is with the buildup, don't develop a story to go a certain way just to change direction without explanation just to have a gotcha moment.

True dat. But to be fair, GRRM developed the story, and if he'd finished writing the books, I'm sure we wouldn't be having this particular conversation at all. If he ever does finish them, it will be absolutely fascinating to finally discover just what the show "knew" and what they had to improvise for this last season.

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