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Athena

S08.E03: The Long Night

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2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

If one gives up all claims and titles can they take them back just because they found a loophole by returning from the dead?  Theres a debate to be had here.

Another complicatng factor would be if he/ she comes back in "Pet Sematary" mode....

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47 minutes ago, BooBear said:

No humans should have been offered up to die. The living have an edge... they can think.

Not in this show (crypts!) LOL! But I agree - they still could have come up with a better plan that ultimately had to fail so that Ninja Arya can save the day. It would have been more of a tragedy than this assembly of Darwin award contestants.

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1 hour ago, BooBear said:

One dragon on the ground blowing fire at the wrights and the other standing guard against the night king.

This is actually a bad idea. As the show has shown, Dragons are very vulnerable when stationary. And when flying in range of a projectile. Had they just been hanging out on the ground - they could have quite easily been taken out, unless plot armor was in effect. 

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4 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

This is actually a bad idea. As the show has shown, Dragons are very vulnerable when stationary. And when flying in range of a projectile. Had they just been hanging out on the ground - they could have quite easily been taken out, unless plot armor was in effect. 

I said with the other dragon standing guard. 

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11 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

They can probably dig up the proof of the annulment and marriage at the Citadel.

Proving that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna rather than Ned and some tavern wench would be more difficult.

Are Bran's visions admissable in court?  

Howland Reed might be a witness.  He probably saw Ned carry Jon out of the Tower of Joy.

And those would be called receipts. Factual proof is one thing - but to suggests that everyone should just take Jon’s (or Sam or Bran’s) word for it is silly. 

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I watched the episode again and watched some of those YouTubers who critique episodes.  I think the complaints fall into the following general categories.

- Too dark!   As I said previously, once I saw that the episode was looking dark I paused the show and calibrated my screen.  Didn't have a problem after that.  BUT the directors for this and other shows should understand that the world of viewing has changed.  I watched the show via standard cable on a big TV.  Many and an increasing number of people watch via streaming services.  The quality of the internet stream can vary with traffic.  Additionally, lots of people watch on laptops and even cell phones.  The directors have to keep this in mind unless they want to behave like they're creating art house productions that can only be viewed under optimal conditions.

- OMG, the battle tactics sucked!   There's a lot of arguing back and forth on this, with points supporting that both Our Heros and the NK are military idiots.  Personally, I think this episode is going to give great joy to people who enjoy debating military tactics in movies and TV for a long time to come.  Could it have been done differently?  Yeah, sure.  I think the point was to really decimate the number of fighters to set up the dynamic for interactions with Cersei's troops.

- Magic plot armor!  Yeah, this is a valid point and the director screwed up.  How many times were Brienne and Sam under a dogpile of wights, only to survive?  How many times did all the major characters face overwhelming odds, yet survive (with a couple of notable exceptions)?  I think the director was trying to convey the horror and hopelessness of the situation for the living fighters.  Could have done this better for sure.

- Editing issues that left some plot points ambiguous!   Yeah, how did Jorah just hear a dragon vocalization and know that Dany would be falling off at just that place?  He had to get there to finish his character's arc, but why couldn't he have seen her dragon stuck on the ground and run towards it?  Dunno.  Sansa, Tyrion, and even Varys in the crypt, we don't know who was trying to do what.  Maybe this was to add to the feeling of confusion, but I think it was more a victim of cutting bits from the scenes.   Jon yelling at the dragon could have been better.  We felt his frustration at being trapped, but it wasn't clear why he stood up and yelled.  He'd had enough?  Who knows.   At several points, the number of wights was huge, then just seconds later one or more of the primary characters has a chance to catch their breath or cry.  What happened to the wights?  More things along those lines.

- Why were the wights comparatively passive and few once they got inside the rooms of Winterfell?  The library scene with Arya was very suspenseful and awesome in it's way, but kind of odd in another way.  Massive numbers of wights were flowing over the walls of Winterfell.  Why were just a few of them walking slowly through the library?  Shouldn't the hallways been crowded with masses of wights pushing forward?  I think for the flow of the episode, we needed a break, a change in the kind of action for a moment to keep up suspense and avoid battle fatigue on the part of the viewer.  It also served to get Arya together with Berric, the Hound, and Melissandre.   Still, it's a good point and could have been handled differently.

- Speaking of Melissandre!   Ok, why was she approaching Winterfell from the north if she was returning from overseas?  What was she doing for most of this episode, just calmly strolling around the castle?  Speaking of strolling, she really could have walked a bit faster to the trench.

- OMG, the NK is DEAD already?   I think this actually suits GoT.  You think that the human fighting is really distracting from the real peril north of the wall.  You hear the Starks and the Wildlings telling everyone this who will listen.    Yeah, it was BAD and the humans had to work together for the most part to get it done, but this is still the Game of THRONES.  Turns out the big climactic fight is over the throne.   That said, there are still some loose threads.  Winter doesn't have to be over just because the NK died.  The endless night won't happen, but it could still get very cold for a long time.  What the heck was Bran doing in those ravens for most of this episode?  That had BETTER come up soon and be related to the rest of the struggle.

- OMG, it should have been Jon fighting the NK, not Arya!   I thought it would have been Jon versus the NK, or some tag team of Jon and Bran.  Nope, it was Arya and as soon as it happened a whole bunch of puzzle pieces clicked together in my head.   People related to the Bravosi religion have been guiding or influencing Arya since the very beginning.  Syrio said things that could have come out of Jaquen's mouth.  I also think that the Many Faced God and the Lord of Light are aspects of the same god.  They were too coordinated in training her and getting her to where she had to be.  I think all along I'd assumed that Arya would use her skills to kill Cersei, but once you see the whole thing laid out it had to be the NK.  That's the threat a god would be concerned about, not some squabbling over a throne.  I think Cersei is more likely to be killed by Jaime now.  Arya rather than Jon is right in GoT's wheelhouse.  You think the logical arc is going one way and boom, it's another, then you think about it and the hints were there.

Overall, I can see what the director was going for but I think he might have been a bit over ambitious.  It reminds me of Project Runway, actually, when the judges tell a designer that he or she has included too many ideas in a single design.  This episode could have stayed the same length, but streamlined a bit so that some critical parts were less ambiguous.  The battles and in particular the hand to hand fighting should have been more realistic with less use of magical plot armor.

All that said, I still enjoyed the episode.  It sets up Our Heros as highly damaged but still in possession of at least one dragon.  They're at a serious disadvantage against Cersei.  What the heck are they going to do?  I'm going to be pissed off if all of a sudden there are a whole bunch of surviving Dothraki and Unsullied ready to fight.   The biggest thing for me, though, is that I need some payoff related to what Bran was doing warged for the majority of the episode.  No, saying that he was observing isn't enough.  What the heck specifically was he doing?  Why wasn't he able to help at least with some information as to where the NK was or where the wights were as they approached Winterfell?

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Is the 3 Eyed Raven an exclusively "Northern" role? Does the Citadel have any records / anecdotal evidence about omniscient tree people? This would establish Bran as an expert witness.....

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4 minutes ago, paigow said:

Is the 3 Eyed Raven an exclusively "Northern" role? Does the Citadel have any records / anecdotal evidence about omniscient tree people? This would establish Bran as an expert witness.....

THis is one area where the show has done a poor job (like many pure fantasy elements in my opinion): why does ANYONE know what Bran means when he says he's the three eyed raven? He told Maester Luwin he had a dream about it, maybe mentioned it to Osha, maybe Rickon, probably the Reeds...but no other Northerners in the show have ever made mention of ANY three eyed raven. It's totally unclear why anyone would understand what he's talking about. If it had grown into a legend when Brynden Rivers disappeared and I guess morphed into the tree, you'd think someone would say "Bran, those are just stories. You hurt your head in a fall," but they don't. He just sighs "I'm the three eyed raven" and they're all like "oh, okay." No one says "What the hell are you talking about?"

Did they even use his testimony, really, in the 'trial' of Baelish? I got the feeling Baelish was in deep shit already when that scene started. There was plenty of actual people evidence against him. They didn't need Bran's "you held a knife to our dad's throat" either, that shit would have been some serious word of mouth news in Westeros by then. 

Good grief I hate Bran.

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2 hours ago, Affogato said:

Sam says at one point that the oath doesnt say the night watch can’t have sex, just children and wives. He implies such things are open to lawyerly discussion among factions. Jons death, i would imagine, would be one of those discussions. 

I agree.  But, at this point, the technicalities of  Night's Watch Vow are probably a moot point.  A huge section of the wall has been destroyed and the enemies to the North of it have either been destroyed or have become allies.    It is quite possible the Night's Watch will be disbanded.  

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25 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

THis is one area where the show has done a poor job (like many pure fantasy elements in my opinion): why does ANYONE know what Bran means when he says he's the three eyed raven? He told Maester Luwin he had a dream about it, maybe mentioned it to Osha, maybe Rickon, probably the Reeds...but no other Northerners in the show have ever made mention of ANY three eyed raven. It's totally unclear why anyone would understand what he's talking about. If it had grown into a legend when Brynden Rivers disappeared and I guess morphed into the tree, you'd think someone would say "Bran, those are just stories. You hurt your head in a fall," but they don't. He just sighs "I'm the three eyed raven" and they're all like "oh, okay." No one says "What the hell are you talking about?"

Did they even use his testimony, really, in the 'trial' of Baelish? I got the feeling Baelish was in deep shit already when that scene started. There was plenty of actual people evidence against him. They didn't need Bran's "you held a knife to our dad's throat" either, that shit would have been some serious word of mouth news in Westeros by then. 

Good grief I hate Bran.

I think Bran can prove his abilities by telling people things about themselves that he would have no way of knowing without his mystical 3ER powers.

But, I agree that the whole 3ER thing has not been handled very well by the show.  I think part of the problem is that if you show too much of his powers and make the extent of them clear, it would ruin a lot of plot tension.   So many of the problems that come up in the show could be easily solved by Bran power, which would become boring rather quickly.  

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4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I agree.  But, at this point, the technicalities of  Night's Watch Vow are probably a moot point.  A huge section of the wall has been destroyed and the enemies to the North of it have either been destroyed or have become allies.    It is quite possible the Night's Watch will be disbanded.  

They did pretty much state that Edd, Sam and Jon were the only ones left. Now it's only Jon, who died and therefore is no longer bound by his vows & Sam who abandoned his training at the Citadel and has his own family (in Gilly and Lil' Sam).

Not sure there's anything to disband.

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On 4/29/2019 at 7:40 PM, LadyChaos said:

He literally told everyone in the great room, "EVERY MAN AND WOMAN between the ages of 10-60 would train to fight'  That includes Sansa.

Sansa certainly should have learned to use a dagger or sword, though she was busy with a lot of other important matters.

I don't think Jon's intention was that every man, woman and child would be on the front lines.  Is was never going to be "Dothraki horsemen on the left, Brienne and the Knight of the Vale, next to them, division of 10 to 13 year old girls, to their right."

I think the idea was that every man, woman and child have some basic ability to use a blade or bow to defend themselves, so the real soldiers wouldn't have to spend as much time protecting them, and so they would have a fighting chance when there were no soldiers to protect them. 

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7 minutes ago, Efzee said:

They did pretty much state that Edd, Sam and Jon were the only ones left. Now it's only Jon, who died and therefore is no longer bound by his vows & Sam who abandoned his training at the Citadel and has his own family (in Gilly and Lil' Sam).

Not sure there's anything to disband.

Good point.  Still they could reestablish it with new members.  But, it doesn't seem necessary to put together a new force to actually do nothing but watch out for grumpkins and snarks.     

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12 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Bran can prove his abilities by telling people things about themselves that he would have no way of knowing without his mystical 3ER powers.

But, I agree that the whole 3ER thing has not been handled very well by the show.  I think part of the problem is that if you show too much of his powers and make the extent of them clear, it would ruin a lot of plot tension.   So many of the problems that come up in the show could be easily solved by Bran power, which would become boring rather quickly.  

Maybe, but from a show perspective, this starts to look like a carnival psychic rather than a mystical tree dwelling internet of weirwood cams :). I don't like Bran because of the exact reason in your second paragraph: he highlights the idea that the show is doing things SIMPLY to make it last longer. It's like @Bannon points out with the dragons a lot: if this were handled more realistically (Bran basically finding the checkmate sequence and just telling people how to execute it using his magic / dragons basically being indestructible gunships that only one side has) you deflate dramatic tension. I find this problematic because there's no true plot driven reason to do so, just SHOW reasons. I'm not doing a good job of explaining it, I'm sorry. 

It's a problem that Binge Mode (which is FUCKING great, no I don't work there but I wish I were friends with them #realtalk) points out with the entire seventh season. When Dany lands in Westeros, if she flies the three dragons to the Red Keep (not to mention a pre-stupid planning Tyrion, Varys when he was a character on this show, two guys who knew the entire political landscape like the back of their hands), lands two on top of it and has the third burn the entire Lannister / Iron fleet in the harbor, brings all 8000 unsullied and 40K Dothraki to the gates of King's Landing, and demands capitulation, the political part of the show would be resolved already.  Cersei, who has no allies at that point, who owes the Iron Bank, would have either surrendered or killed herself or been brought out kicking and screaming by the people who hate her and don't want to do die in a melted stone castle. It's a plan she could have literally executing in S7E1 before the 40 minute mark. Nothing but dramatic requirements forced them to hobble Dany by taking on the north problems first (the terrible Wightnapping plan being the first foray). Now it's a real question: how does she defeat 20K Golden Company and the Lannister army with like 4 unsullied and maybe a half dozen Dothraki? Oh yeah. The two dragons ARE ENOUGH TO DO SO still. And don't talk to me about those stupid crossbows. Those ain't shit. 

Edited by Uncle JUICE
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1 hour ago, BooBear said:
1 hour ago, ShellsandCheese said:

This is actually a bad idea. As the show has shown, Dragons are very vulnerable when stationary. And when flying in range of a projectile. Had they just been hanging out on the ground - they could have quite easily been taken out, unless plot armor was in effect. 

I said with the other dragon standing guard. 

Sounds like 2 stationary dragons. 

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think the idea was that every man, woman and child have some basic ability to use a blade or bow to defend themselves, so the real soldiers wouldn't have to spend as much time protecting them, and so they would have a fighting chance when there were no soldiers to protect them. 

Ding ding ding.  Though I could imagine that those planning to be locked in the crypts would have been given much less training, since they were not expected to be exposed to any enemies. 

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2 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Maybe, but from a show perspective, this starts to look like a carnival psychic rather than a mystical tree dwelling internet of weirwood cams :). I don't like Bran because of the exact reason in your second paragraph: he highlights the idea that the show is doing things SIMPLY to make it last longer. It's like @Bannon points out with the dragons a lot: if this were handled more realistically (Bran basically finding the checkmate sequence and just telling people how to execute it using his magic / dragons basically being indestructible gunships that only one side has) you deflate dramatic tension. I find this problematic because there's no true plot driven reason to do so, just SHOW reasons. I'm not doing a good job of explaining it, I'm sorry. 

It's a problem that Binge Mode (which is FUCKING great, no I don't work there but I wish I were friends with them #realtalk) points out with the entire seventh season. When Dany lands in Westeros, if she flies the dragons to the Red Keep, lands two on top of it and has the third burn the entire Lannister / Iron fleet in the harbor, brings all 8000 unsullied and 40K Dothraki to the gates of King's Landing, and demands capitulation, the political part of the show would be resolved already.  Cersei, who has no allies at that point, who owes the Iron Bank, would have either surrendered or killed herself or been brought out kicking and screaming by the people who hate her and don't want to do die in a melted stone castle. It's a plan she could have literally executing in S7E1 before the 40 minute mark. Nothing but dramatic requirements forced them to hobble Dany by taking on the north problems first (the terrible Wightnapping plan being the first foray). Now it's a real question: how does she defeat 20K Golden Company and the Lannister army with like 4 unsullied and maybe a half dozen Dothraki? Oh yeah. The two dragons ARE ENOUGH TO DO SO still. And don't talk to me about those stupid crossbows. Those ain't shit. 

I agree Dany easily could have taken KL as you described.  The show exaggerated the collateral damage and civilian casualties that would occur to come up with a reason why Dany just doesn't do it. 

I think it is a common problem in fantasy and Sci-fi.  When you create things that are so powerful they can solve just about any tactical problem (like dragons, starships, mystical people like Bran) you have to come up with ways to limit those powers (shields, malfunctions, more powerful aliens, Giant Crossbows, the people of KL being human shields, etc)  to have any dramatic tension

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10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't think Jon's intention was that every man, woman and child would be on the front lines.  Is was never going to be "Dothraki horsemen on the left, Brienne and the Knight of the Vale, next to them, division of 10 to 13 year old girls, to their right."

Uhm- depends on the 10 to 13 year old girl. LYANNA MORMONT FOREVER

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23 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't think Jon's intention was that every man, woman and child would be on the front lines.  Is was never going to be "Dothraki horsemen on the left, Brienne and the Knight of the Vale, next to them, division of 10 to 13 year old girls, to their right."

With Lyanna Mormont leading the division.

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On 4/29/2019 at 9:01 AM, Moot Smoothie said:

I watched in a darkened room too and I have a 4k Samsung so don't think my tv is the problem.  It was like trying to watch a freaking audiobook.  Later tried watching on laptop held up to my nose so that I could turn the screen when scenes changed to get better view but didn't help much. 

Read an article this morning about how the makers have been purposely using only "natural" light for past several seasons in order to be more authentic because they didn't actually have giant electric lights back in 'those days' which never happened anyhow and people were too poor to be burning candles inside!  WTF?, just sounds like such lazy bs excuse-making because most of the interior scenes are shot in castles held by people who can likely afford wax because they can surely afford face-fuls of what appear to be professionally applied cosmetics amd the services of some really first-rate tailors and dress-makers so....

It just seems counter-productive to spend so much money, time and effort to make what should be a visually great series and, at the same time, make it so hard to actually see. 

You know, all of this reminds me of Robert Altman’s naturalist sounds techniques. It sounds great in theory, having the sound in a movie mimic the real life experience of entering a crowded room with multiple conversations taking place simultaneously but at the end of the day I couldn’t follow the actual dialogue in Altman’s early films much of the time. 

I understand the importance of realism in art but art is not life (unfortunately) and artists and artisans need to make certain that people can see, hear and feel the art so that they can experience and then interpret. Having a film where people struggle to see and have repeatedly complained about the issue over years isn’t artistic integrity; it is artistic arrogance. 

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Just now, terrymct said:

With Lyanna Mormont leading the division.

Lyanna the Giant Slayer would BE the division.  

Just now, AuntieMame said:

You know, all of this reminds me of Robert Altman’s naturalist sounds techniques. It sounds great in theory, having the sound in a movie mimic the real life experience of entering a crowded room with multiple conversations taking place simultaneously but at the end of the day I couldn’t follow the actual dialogue in Altman’s early films much of the time. 

I understand the importance of realism in art but art is not life (unfortunately) and artists and artisans need to make certain that people can see, hear and feel the art so that they can experience and then interpret. Having a film where people struggle to see and have repeatedly complained about the issue over years isn’t artistic integrity; it is artistic arrogance. 

Realism should not get in the way of effective story telling.  

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8 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Jon pledged his life and died; therefore, his watch ended. It all seems really clear cut and simple to me. There is no clause for “if you die and are resurrected you are still bound to NW.”

In which case Jon murdered Alliser Thorne, Olly and the others. No longer being a member of the Night's Watch or its commander, he no longer had the legal authority to execute them, which makes it murder

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2 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

In which case Jon murdered Alliser Thorne, Olly and the others. No longer being a member of the Night's Watch or its commander, he no longer had the legal authority to execute them, which makes it murder

You could argue that his obligation to the NW ended with his death, but he was able to resume his  position as Lord Commander after his resurrection, and keep it until he resigned, as no replacement had been chosen.    

Even if you want to argue it was technically "murder" bfd.   He "murdered" a gang of lawless mutineers who had assassinated the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  It wasn't really different than killing the mutineers at Craster's Keep who murdered Lord Commander Mormont.   I don't recall them receiving a trial.    

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17 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

I understand the importance of realism in art but art is not life (unfortunately) and artists and artisans need to make certain that people can see, hear and feel the art so that they can experience and then interpret. Having a film where people struggle to see and have repeatedly complained about the issue over years isn’t artistic integrity; it is artistic arrogance. 

17 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Realism should not get in the way of effective story telling.  

I'm on the fence here. I agree that realism shouldn't be a narrative obstacle (in transmitting what's happening to the viewer, not in "anything goes, no rules," ways...fantasy stories like all stories need to have rules and boundaries within which to act). But the complaints about how dark this episode was have gotten under my skin a bit. This was a television episode on a network that does not have advertising revenue. Put another way, I pay for the ENTIRETY of HBO content (all movies, all shows) through my monthly subscription fee that costs FAR LESS than taking my family to see a single movie (four tickets to Solo last summer and the snacks cost enough to pay for six months of HBO). I give the filmmakers a lot of credit for making something small, like interior sets in Winterfell, FEEL much larger through the use of lighting, camera work, etc. The special effects shots in this episode were rampant! They didn't have enough money to show Ghost for the better part of two full seasons, and this episode is how that money paid off. Yeah, it can be frustrating to watch if you watch it during the day, but I'm not sure what else I could have asked. If they'd done something like add a long tracking shot, as a way to establish where characters were in relation to each other, my biggest quibble, those are insanely expensive and complex to do...and for what? Shit the Dothraki arakh lighting alone cost a ton of money to produce I'm sure. 

I'll accept a lot of criticism of this show and of this episode, but I do not agree that the show did us a disservice by being too dark. They simply cannot afford to show all of the things we wanted to see more clearly. Respect for how much they DID. ETA the shot of the two dragons flying above the clouds into the moonlight in search of Viserion and the Night King...that shot is entirely CG, and it's feature film quality. That costs money. I'd rather have that shot than a better look at the wight army's numbers. 

Edited by Uncle JUICE
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14 hours ago, Dobian said:

Waiting for a person here or there to die inside the walls is not reinforcements.  10,000 troops coming in to aid you is reinforcements.  This isn't Walking Dead rules either.  A person who becomes undead doesn't turn others by biting them, so there is no chain effect.

The thing I found most interesting is that the dead only rose by the NK's command. At least in this battle. I imagine the others (I forget what the "generals" are called) could also resurrect the dead.

48 minutes ago, Efzee said:

They did pretty much state that Edd, Sam and Jon were the only ones left. Now it's only Jon, who died and therefore is no longer bound by his vows & Sam who abandoned his training at the Citadel and has his own family (in Gilly and Lil' Sam).

Not sure there's anything to disband.

Okay, so it's  more like they'd never re-establish the Night Watch, since with the NK and his minions gone, there's nothing to watch for anymore.

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2 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I'm on the fence here. I agree that realism shouldn't be a narrative obstacle (in transmitting what's happening to the viewer, not in "anything goes, no rules," ways...fantasy stories like all stories need to have rules and boundaries within which to act). But the complaints about how dark this episode was have gotten under my skin a bit. This was a television episode on a network that does not have advertising revenue. Put another way, I pay for the ENTIRETY of HBO content (all movies, all shows) through my monthly subscription fee that costs FAR LESS than taking my family to see a single movie (four tickets to Solo last summer and the snacks cost enough to pay for six months of HBO). I give the filmmakers a lot of credit for making something small, like interior sets in Winterfell, FEEL much larger through the use of lighting, camera work, etc. The special effects shots in this episode were rampant! They didn't have enough money to show Ghost for the better part of two full seasons, and this episode is how that money paid off. Yeah, it can be frustrating to watch if you watch it during the day, but I'm not sure what else I could have asked. If they'd done something like add a long tracking shot, as a way to establish where characters were in relation to each other, my biggest quibble, those are insanely expensive and complex to do...and for what? Shit the Dothraki arakh lighting alone cost a ton of money to produce I'm sure. 

I'll accept a lot of criticism of this show and of this episode, but I do not agree that the show did us a disservice by being too dark. They simply cannot afford to show all of the things we wanted to see more clearly. Respect for how much they DID. 

I don’t think people are complaining because they can’t see what they wish they could see, all of the potential fantasy effects for example; I think people are repeatedly complaining because they have difficulty seeing what is on the actual screen. 

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2 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

The thing I found most interesting is that the dead only rose by the NK's command. At least in this battle. I imagine the others (I forget what the "generals" are called) could also resurrect the dead.

Okay, so it's  more like they'd never re-establish the Night Watch, since with the NK and his minions gone, there's nothing to watch for anymore.

IIRC correctly, the White Walkers can raise the dead as wights by touching them.   The NK can do it remotely by raising his arms.   

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Just now, AuntieMame said:

I don’t think people are complaining because they can’t see what they wish they could see, all of the potential fantasy effects for example; I think people are repeatedly complaining because they have difficulty seeing what is on the actual screen. 

I get it, I also think that added to the confusion, claustrophobia and overall sense of terror I had while watching this episode, which is what I think the characters were going through, which I LOVED having. If it's a settings adjustment to a television set people are complaining about, then there's a very easy solution, but the people I know all sound more like they wish they'd seen more...like the scale of Winterfell more, for example, how big is the area, where's the library, how far is the crypt entrance, etc. You can't ask this show to do that AND deliver this battle.

Remember, the Whispering Woods battle happened off screen. That had no fantasy elements. I guess we can take for granted how big and groundbreaking this show is, is my point. 

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4 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

(I forget what the "generals" are called)

The Night's Posse. Undead Entourage. 2 Dead Crew. Spearcaddies. Make a game out of it ;-). 

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14 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I'll accept a lot of criticism of this show and of this episode, but I do not agree that the show did us a disservice by being too dark. They simply cannot afford to show all of the things we wanted to see more clearly. Respect for how much they DID. ETA the shot of the two dragons flying above the clouds into the moonlight in search of Viserion and the Night King...that shot is entirely CG, and it's feature film quality. That costs money. I'd rather have that shot than a better look at the wight army's numbers. 

I think that the battle scenes SHOULD have been dark and confusing because it conveys the feeling of the battle.   This fight was a mess and should have felt like it.  

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14 hours ago, Dobian said:

They follow basic commands, but they are incapable of making tactical decisions on the fly. They'd be sitting ducks out there. Start raining fire on them and it would be chaos.  We saw how they mindlessly piled into the flaming trenches.  They did a similar thing in a big battle several seasons ago.  If the NK did not have the dragon, I'm convinced the humans inside the castle could break the siege in a matter of weeks, and food would not be an issue.

There's only so much oil to burn and so much dragonglass to use- everything else is ineffective. And it wasnt mindless to plow into the fire, it was their tactic to get across and it worked. Then they pile onto the walls and eventually there is a mound. They also fight 24hrs a day, litreally NO REST WHATSOEVER for the humans. Think about what you are saying, that an army of undead who cant be killed aside from burning or dragonglass and is headed by some demonic being and his generals would be "easy pickings" for some random king in 1137 France. Sorry that doesnt comport, the humans dont have unlimited resources and unlimited stamina and once any of the undead breach the walls and start killing all those kiled become additional soldiers. Win in a few weeks? In a week maybe an undead giant shows up and smashes the outer walls to pieces. I didnt see any indication that a few more trebuchet volleys was all that was needed. Also they massacred the Dothraki's who were obviously the equivalent of Mongols...who annihilated all the best medieval fighting forces of their day and actually eliminated the vaunted Knights Templar at Legnica. So although we didnt get to see it, clearly the undead fought very well.

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5 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Great post, just one pedantic correction. Theon never burned two children alive, he murdered the farmboys (or ordered them killed) then burned the bodies to disguise who they really were. Burning them while still alive (without even Mel's excuse of fire magic) would just be some sadistic Ramsay-level shit. Not all burnt corpses had to be die by burning. 

Personally, I don't think Theon really had a suicide wish but that he volunteered to guard Bran, the NK bait, knowing he'd very likely die and choosing that if he died in this epic battle where everyone was anticipating their deaths, his would be guarding the same Stark he'd betrayed and endangered before. He would have considered it a honor to fall trying to atone for his sins but Bran gave him the peace of knowing he was already forgiven so he could run towards death freed of his guilt and shame. 

I don't think Theon had a suicide wish per se either, but protecting Bran and charging the Night King enabled him to integrate his Stark and Greyjoy background. As a Stark by protecting the Starks, and as an Iron Islander by living, and dying, by their ethos of "No surrender".

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58 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I agree Dany easily could have taken KL as you described.  The show exaggerated the collateral damage and civilian casualties that would occur to come up with a reason why Dany just doesn't do it. 

I think it is a common problem in fantasy and Sci-fi.  When you create things that are so powerful they can solve just about any tactical problem (like dragons, starships, mystical people like Bran) you have to come up with ways to limit those powers (shields, malfunctions, more powerful aliens, Giant Crossbows, the people of KL being human shields, etc)  to have any dramatic tension

This is why Tolkien's One Ring was such a clever plot tool. It's All Powerful, but only The Big Bad can use it (and he doesn't have it) extensively without being ruined, and some powerful heroes dare not even touch it, and only barely dare look at it, for fear of being ruined via corruption. Just really smart story construction.

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9 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I don't think Theon had a suicide wish per se either, but protecting Bran and charging the Night King enabled him to integrate his Stark and Greyjoy background. As a Stark by protecting the Starks, and as an Iron Islander by living, and dying, by their ethos of "No surrender".

Am I the only one who's glad we're never going to hear anyone talk about "the Iron X" again? Did you pay the Iron price,or the gold? Did you eat the Iron way, or with spoons? Did you wear the Iron clothes, or the gowns? Shut the fuck up, you grumpy ass people. I hated the iron born, to state the now obvious. I still don't get the whole "This is going to be hilarious, when I meet with him and dad after he fingerblasts me all the way to the castle, he's going to be like WHHAAAAAAT? you're my sister??? HAHAHAH! Classic Yara!" Assholes. 

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2 hours ago, terrymct said:

Magic plot armor!  Yeah, this is a valid point and the director screwed up.  How many times were Brienne and Sam under a dogpile of wights, only to survive? 

It was established that Sam has immunity from wights and White Walkers at the end of Season 2 when the entire Army of the Dead walked by him in full view without giving him a second thought

2 hours ago, terrymct said:

Speaking of Melissandre!   Ok, why was she approaching Winterfell from the north if she was returning from overseas?

She rode north to Winterfell, passed by the castle on her left, hung a louie and then hung another louie.

Presto! She's at the northern entrance of Winterfell traveling south

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10 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

As a Stark by protecting the Starks, and as an Iron Islander by living, and dying, by their ethos of "No surrender".

"What is dead may never die, but rises again harder and stronger."  Post-Reek Theon was certainly reborn harder/better/faster/stronger than Original Recipe Theon. 

And in dying to save Bran and Winterfell, he probably personally felt as if he'd made up for not sending his letter to Robb letting him know that Balon was going to attack Winterfell and kill his brothers... though Bran and the viewers know Theon needed to do that in order for everything else to have happened therefore it wasn't anything to be ashamed of.     

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6 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Am I the only one who's glad we're never going to hear anyone talk about "the Iron X" again? Did you pay the Iron price,or the gold? Did you eat the Iron way, or with spoons? Did you wear the Iron clothes, or the gowns? Shut the fuck up, you grumpy ass people. I hated the iron born, to state the now obvious. I still don't get the whole "This is going to be hilarious, when I meet with him and dad after he fingerblasts me all the way to the castle, he's going to be like WHHAAAAAAT? you're my sister??? HAHAHAH! Classic Yara!" Assholes. 

The Iron Islands need some major Martha Stewart Living intervention.  Window treatments, people, FFS.

But no, unfortunately we're not done with those references, because this Iron Dickbreath still lives.

euron_greyjoy.gif

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9 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Am I the only one who's glad we're never going to hear anyone talk about "the Iron X" again? Did you pay the Iron price,or the gold? Did you eat the Iron way, or with spoons? Did you wear the Iron clothes, or the gowns? Shut the fuck up, you grumpy ass people. I hated the iron born, to state the now obvious. I still don't get the whole "This is going to be hilarious, when I meet with him and dad after he fingerblasts me all the way to the castle, he's going to be like WHHAAAAAAT? you're my sister??? HAHAHAH! Classic Yara!" Assholes. 

I hated the Iron Born too. But, I thought Balon's Iron Price or Gold Price speech to Theon was brilliant and convincing propaganda to get his son to return to the awful ways of the Iron Born.   It almost convinced me that Theon should betray Robb.   

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3 minutes ago, Drogo said:

The Iron Islands need some major Martha Stewart Living intervention.  Window treatments, people, FFS.

But no, unfortunately we're not done with those references, because this Iron Dickbreath still lives.

euron_greyjoy.gif

I know he's still alive, but he never says Iron anything. He's just basically a Judas Priest cover band lead singer who's one sentence away from a piratey YAAARGH!. Seriously no death is grisly enough for this guy, who should have been developed over a longer arc, because he has insanely cool potential. ETA IRon Dickbreath is a fucking thing of genius and is how I will refer to him when watching from now on. 

Edited by Uncle JUICE
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1 minute ago, Drogo said:

The Iron Islands need some major Martha Stewart Living intervention.  Window treatments, people, FFS.

But no, unfortunately we're not done with those references, because this Iron Dickbreath still lives.

euron_greyjoy.gif

I can't stand Euron, but I enjoyed him with Cersei in Season 8 episode 1.     

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2 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

THis is one area where the show has done a poor job (like many pure fantasy elements in my opinion): why does ANYONE know what Bran means when he says he's the three eyed raven? He told Maester Luwin he had a dream about it, maybe mentioned it to Osha, maybe Rickon, probably the Reeds...but no other Northerners in the show have ever made mention of ANY three eyed raven. It's totally unclear why anyone would understand what he's talking about...He just sighs "I'm the three eyed raven" and they're all like "oh, okay." No one says "What the hell are you talking about?" 

There was the time Sam met up with Bran in the Season 7 finale

Quote

Bran: Samwell Tarly.

Sam: I wasn't sure if you'd remember me.

Bran: I remember everything. You helped us get beyond the Wall. You're a good man.

Sam: Oh, well, thank you, but, um, I'm not sure that I am. What happened to you beyond the Wall?

Bran: I became the Three-Eyed Raven.

Sam: Oh!...(pause)...I don't know what that means.

Which is amusing, ultimately doesn't answer the question.

As far as I know, the answer appears to be I can see things whenever it's necessary to advance the plot

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1 hour ago, Drogo said:

Though I could imagine that those planning to be locked in the crypts would have been given much less training, since they were not expected to be exposed to any enemies. 

Since they didn't bother to arm the people in the crypts, I imagine they trained with the sword and dagger equivalents of air guitars

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1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Since they didn't both to arm the people in the crypts, I imagine they trained with the sword and dagger equivalents of air guitars

You know, thinking about this is making me nitpick. Having the people in the crypt stay there for their protection is fine, but assuming that they'll remain safe and untouched and therefore not bothering to arm *any* of them seems a little bit like hubris.

I get that they're smallfolk, mostly, and women and children both young and old, but (as has been pointed out), they're Northerners. They're a hard and cold people, and the sort that you would expect to go down fighting desperately if the crypt were breached. 

That feels like an argument to train them specifically in close combat tactics, or put maybe one soldier down there with them, or give them all *something* to help keep them safe. Instead, everyone is like "LOL, if they break into the crypt I'll be too dead to care, byeeee!"

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3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

There was the time Sam met up with Bran in the Season 7 finale

Which is amusing, ultimately doesn't answer the question.

As far as I know, the answer appears to be I can see things whenever it's necessary to advance the plot

Sansa said the same thing when Bran told her he was the 3ER.  "I don't know what that means".  

He tried to explain it.  I think Bran's answer is the show runners' answer, "It's difficult to explain".   

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1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

He "murdered" a gang of lawless mutineers who had assassinated the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  It wasn't really different than killing the mutineers at Craster's Keep who murdered Lord Commander Mormont.   I don't recall them receiving a trial.    

Jon and his companion didn't unilaterally attack the mutineers at Craster's Keep, but first received the approval of of Alliser Thorne, who was acting Commander of the Night's Watch. When Jon asked for volunteers, he said "I'm going to capture the mutineers holed up there or kill them" But all of the mutineers resisted.

7 minutes ago, Kate47 said:

You know, thinking about this is making me nitpick. Having the people in the crypt stay there for their protection is fine, but assuming that they'll remain safe and untouched and therefore not bothering to arm *any* of them seems a little bit like hubris.

I get that they're smallfolk, mostly, and women and children both young and old, but (as has been pointed out), they're Northerners. They're a hard and cold people, and the sort that you would expect to go down fighting desperately if the crypt were breached.

At least give them the Masada option

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28 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I hated the Iron Born too. But, I thought Balon's Iron Price or Gold Price speech to Theon was brilliant and convincing propaganda to get his son to return to the awful ways of the Iron Born.   It almost convinced me that Theon should betray Robb.   

It certainly convinced all of the viewers who pay the iron price to watch Game of Thrones

https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/17/18412159/game-of-thrones-got-season-8-premiere-pirated-55-million-times-first-24-hours-hbo

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3 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

What I don't understand is how the HELL does this guy get anyone to work for him? He tore out the tongues of everyone on his crew! You'd think recruitment and retention would be a bitch...

You sound like you watched it in the same emotional state I did. I spent the minutes from the end of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms to the end of The Long Night literally dreading this show. Anyway...

I'm now adding a five minute scene of Euron's Iron Born Jobs Fair to my "Night Kin 3/4 Court Heave Hits Viserion," / "Street of Steel Merchant Complains about Walks of Shame" drafts. GREAT POINT. Why they haven't tossed him overboard is literally unimaginable, as in I cannot imagine a way that makes sense. After about the third tongue, wouldn't four or five guys be like, wait, fuck this, let's murder his ass and toss his body, it's not like we don't have a demonstrable cause here. It's been a while since I read the books, and by the time Euron shows up I'm not going to lie, those books started to feel like homework. 

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38 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I can't stand Euron, but I enjoyed him with Cersei in Season 8 episode 1.     

No doubt we enjoyed him with Cersei more than Cersei did. 

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9 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Why they haven't tossed him overboard is literally unimaginable, as in I cannot imagine a way that makes sense. After about the third tongue, wouldn't four or five guys be like, wait, fuck this, let's murder his ass and toss his body, it's not like we don't have a demonstrable cause here. It's been a while since I read the books, and by the time Euron shows up I'm not going to lie, those books started to feel like homework. 

Hypothesis:  Most of them cut out their own tongues on purpose so he wouldn't try to fucking talk to them anymore. 

You know, so he doesn't come over on deck and say Iron Bullshit like:

  • I'm going to build that fleet, and I'm going to gallivant right over and give it to Daenerys Targaryen, along with my big cock.
  • Does she like it gentle...or rough? A finger in the bum? Shh, not now. We'll talk later.
  • It was glorious watching you cut down my entire family, like a dance! The place was getting crowded, I enjoyed watching it, I truly did.
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Everybody is so worried and concerned about the viability of the war strategy, whether enough characters died, if this character or that character did enough or nothing, etc. 

For me this episode was beautiful because it highlighted the fact that people do panic when facing death, they freeze, but hopefully they recover and try to fight back even if it cost them their lives. 

The most remarkable scenes for me where those were people recovered and conquered their fears. Sandor Clean PSTD and froze but then recovered, Arya was all frazzled before she received Melisandre's pep talk. Melisandre was starting to panic when she couldn't light up the trenches but then got the courage to keep on going, Jon panicked when the NK resurrected the dead but kept trying to fight, Sansa and Tyrion panicked but then got out and killed a WW, Daenerys panicked when she dracaryed the NK and he didn't burn but she got courage to fight along Jorah, Jorah panicked but that didn't prevent him from protecting Dany, Theon panicked but still charged against the NK. I could feel Jon's frustration when he was screaming at the ice dragon, I could feel Sansa and Tyrion desperation thinking they were all going to die in the crypts, I could feel Jorah's desperation thinking he wouldn't be able to protect his queen. I could feel Grey Worm frustration when they couldn't fight the WW back. 

If D&D wanted to make us feel like this was over, that the NK was going to win, but despite all that these characters were going to die with dignity and fighting till their last breath, then they got it. I was so panicked and frustrated, I wanted to shout and scream knowing this was probably the end. They got that. The moment that out of nowhere Arya came along and stroke and killed the NK I jumped out of my seat like something had posses me, this is the first time this has ever happened to me as far as a show is concerned so kudos to D&D for that. 

I could nitpick their lack of strategy and how the light was not the best, how Jon didn't get the final stroke but I won't. They all personified the basis of human behavior for me, they all in their own way portrayed basic and raw human emotions. Now I am more than ever hoping that GRRM finishes the books because I know that all those pesky details that didn't make sense will come together, I want to know what each of these character were thinking and feeling. In summary I will continue waiting for his books like a GD stalker. 

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