S02.E12: Sanctuary

[Catfi9ht]

8 hours ago, North of Eden said:

Lastly, consider the ball dropped with Isacc. There has been zero follow up about how the crew feels having someone indirectly responsible for the deaths of their fellow crew and union members sitting on the bridge as if nothing happened.

This is my biggest gripe currently with the show. They continue to make progress on the Moclan gender genocide storyline, but there has been zero fallout regarding Isaac's mutiny. 

Since the prosthetics on the aliens have been so well done, I decided to look up who was responsible. The special effects supervisor is Howard Berger, and he has and doing makeup and special-effects since the 80s including Evil Dead II, The Walking Dead, and Hemlock Grove. There are a ton of other credits, but those are the ones that stood out to me personally. https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0074205/

I love the art of special effects (not CGI) and prosthetics so I always try to look up those credits if I really like the work. On a side note, I miss Face Off and Making Monsters alot. 😓

[Mr. Sparkle]

If I'm not mistaken, there's been very little of Isaac, the Doctor or her kids since that episode. I have to assume they're setting something up for a future episode, either this season or next. 

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, Catfi9ht said:

This is my biggest gripe currently with the show. They continue to make progress on the Moclan gender genocide storyline, but there has been zero fallout regarding Isaac's mutiny. 

I think you expect way too much of this show! The things that are connected are only superficially so. The Moclan gender plot I believe is the result of the show's writers realizing that the first story about this was one of the few widely praised episodes, so they went back to the well ... again. I actually view it as a weakness. They need new stories.

13 minutes ago, Superclam said:

If I'm not mistaken, there's been very little of Isaac, the Doctor or her kids since that episode. I have to assume they're setting something up for a future episode, either this season or next. 

We've seen enough of the doctor and her kids to hold us over for a season or two, IMO! I agree they are setting up another confrontation with Isaac's people. Well, not so much "setting up" as not mentioning them much until the cliffhanger. Because you know we are headed for a cliffhanger. 

This episode I was live texting a friend, and called the baby being what is in the case as soon as the two visiting Moclan's opened a case and all we saw was a blue glow, and Topa spilling the beans as soon as Topa walked into the quarters of the two Moclans (before he even saw the baby).  It wasn't because I'm S-M-R-T, it was because I went with whatever was the easiest and weakest plot point.

Also, Kelly and Bortus taking out a platoon of Maclans, you know, the ones who provide the Union with weapons, was just silly.

[shapeshifter]

22 minutes ago, Ottis said:

This episode I was live texting a friend, and called the baby being what is in the case as soon as the two visiting Moclan's opened a case and all we saw was a blue glow,

I was expecting an egg. 
It was a very cute baby.

[Ottis]

37 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I was expecting an egg. 
It was a very cute baby.

Ha. It reminded me of that show Dinosaurs, with the muppet-like live action dinos. "Not the mama!"

[ganesh]

I actually can't remember when we last saw the doctor. Maybe she took a leave of absence after everything that happened. 

I'm going to give the show a little credit and say they're planning something with Isaac. As he's only been around to take orders and do basic things, I'm going to give the show a little wiggle room in that everyone is just keeping away from him and he's just doing his job. I don't know that he would be able to grasp the concept of him being frozen out, but that's what it looks like to me. 

[AnimeMania]

51 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I actually can't remember when we last saw the doctor.

You certainly can't since she was in this episode, she wanted to run tests to see if the baby actually belonged to the two Moclans.

[ganesh]

I meant as a key plot character in response to this comment. 

2 hours ago, Superclam said:

If I'm not mistaken, there's been very little of Isaac, the Doctor or her kids since that episode. I have to assume they're setting something up for a future episode, either this season or next. 

[AnimeMania]

7 minutes ago, ganesh said:

key plot character

The only time the Doctor is a key plot character is when something super freaky happens to her like being held captive in somebody's closet, being macked on by living Jello or trying out an experimental Kaylon sex toy.

[Jacks-Son]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I was expecting an egg. 
It was a very cute baby.

That baby was adorable.  I can't imagine doctors standing over her and performing unnecessary gender reassignment surgery. <Shudder>

[rmontro]

On 4/15/2019 at 7:22 AM, Catfi9ht said:

This is my biggest gripe currently with the show. They continue to make progress on the Moclan gender genocide storyline, but there has been zero fallout regarding Isaac's mutiny. 

They've featured Isaac so infrequently that I almost get the feeling that they want us to forget about what he did, so that when they do reintroduce him, he'll have a clear slate.

More likely, we'll get an entire episode devoted to catching us up on the story and taking us to the next step.  In the meantime, they're not focusing on it.

[Chaos Theory]

15 hours ago, rmontro said:

They've featured Isaac so infrequently that I almost get the feeling that they want us to forget about what he did, so that when they do reintroduce him, he'll have a clear slate.

More likely, we'll get an entire episode devoted to catching us up on the story and taking us to the next step.  In the meantime, they're not focusing on it.

Bit I think that is the point.   Isaac isn’t being included like he was before.  I think everyone was expecting overt punishment like throwing  him in  the brig or locking him in his quarters until he is needed but his “punishment” is that he is no longer being included.  He used to sit with the group while they ate.  They used to wave him over to talk with him.  Now he is alone and to some that may not feel like  enough “prison prison prison prison prison” but the lack of any real Isaac inclusion has been jarring to me. 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[Catfi9ht]

25 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Bit I think that is the point.   Isaac isn’t being included like he was before.  I think everyone was expecting overt punishment like throwing  him in  the brig or locking him in his quarters until he is needed but his “punishment” is that he is no longer being included.  He used to sit with the group while they ate.  They used to wave him over to talk with him.  Now he is alone and to some that may not feel like  enough “prison prison prison prison prison” but the lack of any real Isaac inclusion has been jarring to me. 

I agree, but I wish they would have had at least a 30 second conversation to discuss the fallout to make the story line more cohesive.

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, Catfi9ht said:

I agree, but I wish they would have had at least a 30 second conversation to discuss the fallout to make the story line more cohesive.

Yep, I would have loved a scene in briefing room without Isaac where Bortus says "we should turn his ass off" and Ed says "He's just a machine and should be seen as such, a tool that we use to further our mission and the Union" while the Doctor has a pained look but says nothing. 

[Chaos Theory]

3 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Yep, I would have loved a scene in briefing room without Isaac where Bortus says "we should turn his ass off" and Ed says "He's just a machine and should be seen as such, a tool that we use to further our mission and the Union" while the Doctor has a pained look but says nothing. 

But that would be a repeat of the scene with the admiral and serve zero purpose. It would also be a waste of a scene.    There is no point to the scene and would actually make me feel bad for Isaac and think everyone was being needless mean to Isaac our of spite.  Which again is the whole reason Ed didn’t want any restrictions but on Isaac it would prove Prime right.  And this exact scene would Prime right.   

Instead having all these unintentional cruelties.  Not inviting Isaac when they would have out of habit.  Thinking twice before letting Isaac play with the kid you left him alone with before.  The entire scenario actually only works if nothing gets said otherwise it’s everyone intentionally bullying Isaac which again proves Prime right.

[jumper sage]

On 4/15/2019 at 7:22 AM, Catfi9ht said:

This is my biggest gripe currently with the show. They continue to make progress on the Moclan gender genocide storyline, but there has been zero fallout regarding Isaac's mutiny.

I see the Isaac character/storyline much like my broken dryer that I cursed out.  Dryer fixed and until something comes up - perhaps it will magically wash clothes - out of sight out of mind.

On 4/15/2019 at 3:24 PM, Jacks-Son said:

That baby was adorable.  I can't imagine doctors standing over her and performing unnecessary gender reassignment surgery. <Shudder>

Agreed.

I really liked the episode and the series.  Glad Topa made friends with a girl.  I see more problems for the SAHD.  Now correct me if I am wrong but - Bortus knew his spouse was born a female because that is the only way they could have had a female egg?  The spouse is then being very sadistic towards those of his original sex or:  Me thinks he doth protest too much.

[DarkRaichu]

Great episode.  I am not going to repeat everyone's comments. 

To me the writing style of this show is closer to DS9, where each episode can stand on its own, but there are connecting issues between episodes that would make a better viewing experience for fans of the show. 

This show doing a great job at world building.  Look at the variety of aliens in the council.  One I noticed was the race of that poet engineer who had a date with Alara.

'I like the fight sequence with Dolly Parton's 9 to 5.  Although I questioned how Kelly could kick a Moclan soldier hard enough to drop him.  The Moclans are supposed to be heavier and stronger than average humans.  The physics just did not work.  They should have shown more of female Moclans taking care of themselves vs male Moclans and Kelly as weapon support.

Bonus points for Gordon's piloting skill making the Orville lasted that long vs a bigger stronger Moclans warship before going to the nebula.  I love picking up little details like these 😄

Bortus' smile was a good way to end the episode 

[AnimeMania]

Watched Deadpool 2 and they also had a fight scene to Dolly Parton's 9 to 5.

[Ceindreadh]

3 hours ago, jumper sage said:

I see the Isaac character/storyline much like my broken dryer that I cursed out.  Dryer fixed and until something comes up - perhaps it will magically wash clothes - out of sight out of mind.

Agreed.

I really liked the episode and the series.  Glad Topa made friends with a girl.  I see more problems for the SAHD.  Now correct me if I am wrong but - Bortus knew his spouse was born a female because that is the only way they could have had a female egg?  The spouse is then being very sadistic towards those of his original sex or:  Me thinks he doth protest too much.

Bortus only knew that Klyden had been born female because Klyden told him. 

Klyden himself didn’t know until he was an adult and a doctor told him. 

It seems to me now that one of the arguments the Moclans used in favour of the gender reassignment policy has now been negated. They’d claimed that Topa, as the only female in a generation, would be isolated and an outcast without the surgery. But now it’s clear that there’s considerably more female births than previously claimed, so while females may still be a minority, they certainly wouldn’t be as isolated as the Moclan government made them out to be. 

If news of the sanctuary was publicized on the Moclan home world, I wonder how many parents would be pissed off that they’d agreed to the surgery under false pretenses. 

[Jacks-Son]

3 hours ago, jumper sage said:

Bortus knew his spouse was born a female because that is the only way they could have had a female egg?

I don't know if that is entirely correct. With hardly any females to mate with,  I think,  Moclan's,  as a species,  must she able to reproduce asexually.  I'm sure the scientists among us can answer that question better than I. 

[Bort]

It could be that the Moclans were a species that could reproduce no matter what the pairing: M/F, M/M, F/F. Or that when they “did away with” females, they engineered a way for the species to reproduce without females.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Ceindreadh said:

It seems to me now that one of the arguments the Moclans used in favour of the gender reassignment policy has now been negated. They’d claimed that Topa, as the only female in a generation, would be isolated and an outcast without the surgery. But now it’s clear that there’s considerably more female births than previously claimed, so while females may still be a minority, they certainly wouldn’t be as isolated as the Moclan government made them out to be. 

If news of the sanctuary was publicized on the Moclan home world, I wonder how many parents would be pissed off that they’d agreed to the surgery under false pretenses. 

I wonder if Topa will be given the choice to be converted back to female. In an early episode, regrowing a leg was pretty simple and painless.

Edited April 18, 2019 by shapeshifter

[tv-talk]

5 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

But that would be a repeat of the scene with the admiral and serve zero purpose. It would also be a waste of a scene.    There is no point to the scene and would actually make me feel bad for Isaac and think everyone was being needless mean to Isaac our of spite.  

The Admiral didnt know Isaac nor was he going to be living/working with him after he betrayed the human race in an effort to wipe it out. As for the cruelty, the point of a scene like I described would be to impress the fact that Isaac is "just" a machine and not capable of feeling sad nor neglected nor persecuted. 

[The Kings Foot]

On 4/12/2019 at 2:19 PM, Danielg342 said:

You keep missing my point. No one will change their minds unless they have a reason to do so.

Right now, the Moclans feel that women are useless. The women thus need to be shown that they have a use, and the easiest way to do that is if the women show it to them.

(I grant they don't have to, which I said in my original post, but the task becomes much harder, and the women proving their worth is a better story)

Bill of Rights exists because we, as a society, believe there is a value in each and every one of our existences. We can debate how realistic this is, but that is a separate debate- the philosophical core is that every one of us has value so we ensure that we all preserve each other. Those who oppress do not see the value of those they are oppressing, which is why they do it.

Isnt this what you are accusing Seth of doing ? Altering the plot to take the easy way out ?

Quote

You'd think, if the world was written by Seth, that all that's needed is a few strongly-worded speeches and a strange revolutionary (who's not actually all that strange if you got to know her) and you can still secure a quasi-solution that solves the immediate problem while still maintaining the status quo.

If only situations like this could be this easy

Edited April 20, 2019 by The Kings Foot

[legaleagle53]

On 4/12/2019 at 9:30 AM, iMonrey said:

Wow this episode was a real star-studded one. F. Murray Abraham, Ted Danson, Tony Todd - have we seen Marina Sirtis before? I have to say, seeing her looking so old made me feel so very old myself. (She still looks good, she just looks so much older than I remember her.) Seemed like kind of a small part for such a significant guest star, but I noticed Jonathan Frakes directed this episode, so maybe he talked her into it.

I think she looks just as beautiful as ever. And how cool was it to hear her speak in her native British accent after years of the "exotic" accent she created for Troi?

[Danielg342]

@The Kings Foot, if you want to have a discussion about the show, I'm all for that.

If your only interest is "beating" me, then I'm sorry, I'm not interested.

[The Companion]

I was disappointed when more Moclans showed up at the beginning of this episode, because I feel like we have been dealing with the Moclans so much this season, and I am pretty sick of them but this ended up being a really entertaining episode and justifying some of the prior focus. 

Most importantly: Dolly Parton is a national treasure and, if anyone deserves to live on centuries from now it is that woman. I loved the 9 to 5 fight sequence and honestly the quote in the speech (which worked surprisingly well).

It was a little frustrating to see all those cool aliens we haven't met. I hope next season will branch out a bit. 

The story itself was actually really great. Having to balance the values of the union against its security. 

I know some people have speculated on stun vs. fatal shots. At the end of the episode it looked like everyone was up, so I have to assume stun. Still, it was interesting that the Mochlans felt secure in going down to the planet before a final vote was tallied. I am not sure I would trust them to honor the vote.

Klyden continues to be awful. A lot of people have noted how little contact he has outside of quarters. I think this was a good way to drive that home. I did find it surprising that he would even allow his son to be taught by a woman. The culture clash aspect is really interesting to me, even if I would really like to explore it in a different context. 

I found the diplomatic solution rather unsatisfying. It saved the women in that colony, but now other females have nowhere to go. 

[legaleagle53]

42 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I found the diplomatic solution rather unsatisfying. It saved the women in that colony, but now other females have nowhere to go. 

But as Heveena herself pointed out, that doesn't matter. The diplomatic compromise only stops the smuggling of female refugees into HER colony. It doesn't stop anyone else from picking up where Heveena left off by starting ANOTHER refugee colony and Underground Railroad, and Heveena knows that eventually someone else will. The Moclans will never be able to put this genie back into the bottle.

[The Companion]

13 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

But as Heveena herself pointed out, that doesn't matter. The diplomatic compromise only stops the smuggling of female refugees into HER colony. It doesn't stop anyone else from picking up where Heveena left off by starting ANOTHER refugee colony and Underground Railroad, and Heveena knows that eventually someone else will. The Moclans will never be able to put this genie back into the bottle.

I don't disagree with that, but it puts a pretty heavy burden on refugees. Presumably, nobody in the union is going to risk taking refugees, so we are really talking about finding another planet that is habitable and starting a colony (with no comparable protections from the Union and no defenses). The point is they essentially grandfathered in the existing refugees but provided no protection for future refugees. I think Heveena is right and it will happen again, but not without pretty heavy risk and potential consequences. 

[legaleagle53]

5 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I don't disagree with that, but it puts a pretty heavy burden on refugees. Presumably, nobody in the union is going to risk taking refugees, so we are really talking about finding another planet that is habitable and starting a colony (with no comparable protections from the Union and no defenses). The point is they essentially grandfathered in the existing refugees but provided no protection for future refugees. I think Heveena is right and it will happen again, but not without pretty heavy risk and potential consequences. 

All revolutions do. If they didn't, they'd never eventually succeed.

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, The Companion said:

I found the diplomatic solution rather unsatisfying. It saved the women in that colony, but now other females have nowhere to go.

I think that was the point though. There was no ideal solution. The fact they were able to avoid a larger conflict or fracture the union was the best they could hope for. 

[The Companion]

44 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I think that was the point though. There was no ideal solution. The fact they were able to avoid a larger conflict or fracture the union was the best they could hope for. 

I think it would have felt a little more satisfying if there had been some negotiations and concessions. Maybe that makes me a nerd. 🙂

[legaleagle53]

13 hours ago, The Companion said:

I think it would have felt a little more satisfying if there had been some negotiations and concessions. Maybe that makes me a nerd. 🙂

There were concessions on both sides. The concessions were that Heveena would stop running her Underground Railroad and that the Moclan men would leave the existing refugee colony alone. It was the best that could have been accomplished within such a short time frame.

Edited May 3, 2019 by legaleagle53

[RedHawk]

On 4/17/2019 at 5:57 PM, AnimeMania said:

Watched Deadpool 2 and they also had a fight scene to Dolly Parton's 9 to 5.

I love Dolly Parton and I like the song. I enjoyed Hevenna’s reaction to it and use of it as her inspiration. However, it just didn’t work for me in a fight scene, either in Deadpool 2 or this show. It was jarringly out of place; I guess I associate it too much with scenes  from the original film. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by RedHawk

[The Companion]

12 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

There were concessions on both sides. The concessions were that Heveena would stop running her Underground Railroad and that the Moclan men would leave the existing refugee colony alone. It was the best that could have been accomplished within such a short time frame.

Fair point. Correction: negotiated concessions. Basically, what they proposed was immediately accepted with no negotiation which made it feel like they could have done more for the colony. A successful negotiation involves both parties being a bit unhappy, which this definitely fit in the sense that neither side "won." However, it seems to me that the Moclans came out substantially ahead at the cost of the colony, especially after their bad faith efforts to collect the women before a decision could be made. The cynical side of me says the Moclans show back up a few months down the road and destroy the colony or kidnap the women, given their behavior in this episode. Or that they apply pressure to prevent other members of the union from trade. Or that they otherwise feel empowered to throw their weight around. The colony has no representation, so how will they protest? They are restricted from growing their female Moclan population, so how will they gain enough residents to make an impact or become important players? Their best bet is probably that Moclan culture changes, and perhaps it will. Perhaps there will be widespread outrage that the government has hidden the truth about female babies. 

I am probably putting way too much thought into it, regardless. As I said, I thought the solution was unsatisfying. Not that it was necessarily dead wrong or even unreasonable. Just not what I would have liked to see were I rule of the universe/negotiating it. 

[Bort]

36 minutes ago, The Companion said:

They are restricted from growing their female Moclan population, so how will they gain enough residents to make an impact or become important players?

Presumably they will breed like any colony and expand that way. And since female Moclan births appear to be more common than originally let on, they'll get more that way. And more boys that won't be raised with the same prejudices as on the homeworld.

[ganesh]

14 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

There were concessions on both sides

I can get that it was a little rushed. I would have liked a 2 parter because this was a good frame to do some world building. 

[Ceindreadh]

8 hours ago, The Companion said:

 The colony has no representation, so how will they protest? They are restricted from growing their female Moclan population, so how will they gain enough residents to make an impact or become important players? Their best bet is probably that Moclan culture changes, and perhaps it will. Perhaps there will be widespread outrage that the government has hidden the truth about female babies. 

How will they gain residents?  Well, when a Moclan and a Moclan love each other very much...  😁

[blueray]

On 4/13/2019 at 11:42 PM, Jacks-Son said:

I'm also surprised that Talla did not accompany Bortus and Kelly down to the planet, was the Security Officer always the next in command after Mercer, Kelly, Bortus go off ship? I don't remember Alara sitting in the Captain's chair. I DO remember her being afraid to take command.  I sort of remember Gordon asking someone how it felt to sit in the chair.  Was that Alara?  Did Odo ever have to assume command of DS9?

Sorry to respond to an old post. But Odo did take command technically once. It was during the episode Babel. All the senior staff (minus Odo) were sick therefore compromised. It's toward the end of the episode, but Odo finds himself basically in command of DS9 and alone at ops. And has to make decisions and such.

In this episode, Bortus asked to go with Kelly which meant that Talla was the senior officer on the bridge now. She unlike Alara seemed to have experience with this and was ready to go.

Anyhow, another good episode. This one was interesting because I can't think of a Star trek episode exactly like it.  And I liked them using 9-5 as an empowerment song.