S08.E01: Winterfell

[Meredith Quill]

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Episode Synopsis:

Daenerys arrives at Winterfell, and Jon Snow gets some big news.

[gingerella]

And now our final watch has begun...

Given this is the final opening episode of the final season, I was surprised at how slow the pace felt, and yet looking back, there was a lot packed hour. 

I loved the initial scenes, which to me were strong call backs to S1E01 when Arya was hiding when the royal caravan rolled in to Winterfell (didn’t she spy on them arriving and wasn’t to be found the courtyard when Cat was corralling her children to meet the King?). This time, hiding amongst the crowd, wanting to shout to Jon, then to The Hound, but controlling her impulses (she has grown!). Then being in the reception line at the last minute to meet Dany, just like she did when Robert stepped out to meet the Stark clan eight seasons, and many more years ago. It was such a pure moment, recalling a time when our beloved Stark characters were carefree and happy, something we have not seen in this family since they rolled out the gates of Winterfell, headed to Kings Landing.  

The Cersei/Urine plotline I still don’t find any interest in, with the exception of Yara being freed by Theon and returning to the Iron Islands to take back her seat, and prepare to play a backstopping role if Dany and crew need to flee. That was a nice thought, but there are a shit ton of army troops, wildlings, et al that would need safe haven and I don’t see how the Iron Island ps can provide that, they always looked very small to me. It’s like she’s the Martha Stewart of Westeros, “Hey, I’ll be over here he Iron Islands making it nice for you guys if you need a place to flee!” Nice to see Theon finally do right by his sister. He is definitely going to bite it fighting in the North, but he has a lot to atone for so...it is his destiny I think.

I can see how the Northerners don’t trust Dany, she’s a Targ and she’s not a Northerner. But Jon didn’t really sell WHY he bent the knee to her, when he was talking to the Northern Houses. Little Lyana Mormont kicks ass and takes names again, “we voted YOU King of the North”...It felt like there needed to be more urgent dialogue in that scene, with Jon sharing what was coming in more detail perhaps? I mean, if they really got what was headed for them, I don’t think they’d be squabbling about who bent the knee to whom! 

Speaking of Lyanna Mormont, I’m curious to see her and Jorah meet, he’s from the same House, yes? I wonder if his presence supersedes hers? She’s a little badass and I don’t think she’d step down for anyone, to be honest. 

Loved seeing Gendry making a big comeback, and playing such a huge role in making the dragon glass weapons. And whoever was shipping Gendry and Arya, booyah! Those two were adorable, not a word we often use for A Show.

Very relieved to see Tormund and Dondarrion & Co. made it out alive from The Wall take down, but assumed they’d survived anyway because, Tormund! Poor little Ned Umber...I jumped when his body started squeeing! 

Sam - his scenes were really interesting to me retrospect. Sam has been shown to be a scaredy-cat most of the time, and I think that Sam would normally be reticent to tell Jon who his real parents are because he’d be afraid to do so, but it was as if Dany’s admission of killing his father and brother emboldened Sam to do Bran’s bidding and spill the (Sean) bean(s), sorry it was too easy not to! Anyway, I honestly don’t think he would have told Jon had Dany not told him about killing his family. It’s an interesting twist because I can start to see the possibility of the wheels of change turning against Dany as a result of her actions and decisions up until this point. She hasn’t really ever professed that someone else might be a bettering ruler than she, and she’s done whatever she had to to get to this point, but maybe her actions are starting to catch up with her now? If so, shitty timing! Plus, how many times does someone have to tell Tyrion the Northerners trust Jon Snow, King of the North, not Danaerys Targaryen, dragons notwithstanding.

The scenes with Tyrion, Davis and Varys and the Tyrion/Sansa scene underscored to me that Tyrion still doesn’t get how fucking twisted big sis is, because he seems like the only one who doesn’t get that the Lannister Army ain’t coming. When Sansa spelled it out for him on the balcony, it was such a darkly poetic scene. The last time these two were together, they were married, and Tyrion was Sansa’s protector, as best he could be given Joffreys  tormenting her. She’d been a fragile flower in need of a man to protect her, but now she wasn’t even Tyrion’s equal, she was clearly shrewder, smarter, more calculating than he was, she had risen far above him, and it was obvious I think even to him. When she walked away leaving him gobsmacked, she might as well have done a medieval *drops mic*, because she was so badass that moment!

Speaking of which, I adored Arya telling Jon that Sansa is the smartest person she knows. Such a 180 from their long sibling rivalry, and incredibly satisfying to A Viewer to see Sansa’s intelligence acknowledged. She has suffered far beyond any other Stark sibling (Joffrey, Littlefinger, Ramsey), IMO, and has grown far beyond that girl we first met who was obsessed with marrying a Prince and playing with dolls and pretty clothes. Arya’s reunion with Jon had me grinning ear to ear. These two are magic together, and they make me want House Stark to prevail in the end of this mess to come.

The last scene with Jamie arriving and turning to see Bran, whoa! Still, I’m betting that Bran forgives him (or doesn't even care anymore) because if he hadn’t been pushed and fallen, perhaps he wouldn’t have become the TER. I think Bran probably knows his destiny, has seen it in visions, and won’t be too bugged by Jamie’s actions all those years ago, because the only thing that matter right now is defeating the Night King and his Zombonis.

And speaking of Jamie...and Tyrion...is there any spitballer among us who thinks that Bronn would kill either Tyrion or Jamie? I think not. Bronn may be a sellsword, and talk a good game about being up for anything as long as he gets his money, but I cannot see him killing Tyrion or Jamie, and when he gets North and sees the shit show coming at him I have a feeling he'll be like, "Cersei who?". 

Today, in preparation for tonight’s premiere, I was looking back at a lot of what the Unsullied Nights Watch have spitballed over the last many years about A Show and something stood out to me today - I think Pallas wrote it - it was something about how Dany is really good at getting people to bend the knee in her quest to re take the Iron Throne, but how good might she be once she actually gets it? It’s sort of like those people who are compulsive buyers because the high of seeking out that item and purchasing gives them the high but once they get the thing they’ve been seeking, they are on to the next purchase because its the quest they get off on. I have often felt that this applies to Dany because we have seen her take what she wants, and she seems to be pleased with herself about her conquests, but once she has something, like Meereen, she doesn’t do a very good job of holding to it and keeping to her ethos. I guess it’s easy to say that ruling a kingdom is a lot harder than it looks but you get what I mean.

The other thing that my mind keeps going back to is her line, “I want to break the wheel.” It ties in to Jon Snow knowing now that he is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and IF Dany is truly committed to breaking the wheel, she will bend the knee to Jon Snow, and if she will not, well, she isn’t really a Breaker of Wheels, is she? She'll be a REinventer of Wheels. She’d be more like your typical garden variety Targ power monger. All spitball hypotheticals, but it’s rolling round my brain right now.

Lots more to say but needing time to process it...

Edited April 15, 2019 by gingerella

[DirewolfPup]

Cersei really wanted those elephants...

With Jaime abandoning the cause, she sleeps with Euron to pass her child off as his I presume. I guess she really must be pregnant. At least she actually thinks she is. Some of us were speculating that she was lying to keep Jaime loyal. Apparently, not the case. She did seem rightfully disgusted with herself after the whole ordeal.

Also, NEW OPENING CREDITS. They only had three locations, so they made the most of it. I wonder how much of Westeros will be "ice" by the end of the series.

Is Yara's story over? Is that it? Theon just saves her while Euron is schtuping the queen and she goes home? Theon's going to Winterfell to presumably die. That tortured man can't survive in this world ultimately. His fate is certain.

Sansa's really wiping the floor with all these emotional, impulsive men. Jon believes in Dany? Sure you don't just love her cause she's pretty? Oh, Cersei is going to send her army north to fight for you, Tyrion? I used to think you were clever.  That woman should rule the world. I almost feel like I willed this into fruition. Season 2, she was my favorite character because of her resilience in the face of pure evil. I endured so much teasing for thinking highly of her. Who's laughing now? harharhar <downs grog>

Gingerella, I too got major S01E01 vibes. The royal reception party. Arya's part in this hearkens back to wearing the helmet and sitting on the wagon for a better view. When she saw Jon, I got the sense that she was hoping he'd look her way, and they could have a moment. When that didn't happen, she looked a little hurt. Even The Hound and Gendry didn't look at her.

My favorite part of Arya and Jon meeting up again was the sword comparison. She got to admire Longclaw even though it's "Too heavy for me." She admits to using Needle "once or twice." Her face showed that she was hiding her true self. Is it shame, or not wanting him to view her differently. I can't tell what Arya's opinion of Dany is. They only discuss that Sansa doesn't approve.

By the way, where was Brienne? Didn't see her this episode unless I blacked out and missed something.

Poor wee Lord Umber. He did have a castle close to the wall. We learned that in Season 6 (see recap). I jumped at that shriek sound even though I saw his blue eyes open. Just a littlelittlelittle bit disturbing. But can we get some better lighting A Show? I had all the lights off watching this, and I still couldn't see fuckall for about 3 minutes. I could tell it was Tormund and Beric because of the style of grunting. Credit to the actors there. I get that it's dark, but find a damn torch, please.

The last scene with Jaime meeting eyes with Bran was interesting. Jamie looked visually shook. The actor who plays him has really awesome dread-face. No, I don't believe the-artist-previously-known-as-Bran will hold Jaime in ill will. The TER cares not for such things. Doesn't mean he won't tell anyone though. This is such a rag-tag group of characters. Almost everyone there has tried to kill each other in different phases of their lives. World keeps on turning I suppose.

Sam. Poor guy learning about his family's demise from the person who demised it. His father was a dick, but his brother seemed like a good dude. Somewhat bro-like, but inoffensive. I wonder if he'll get to be the Lord of House Tarly after all. Upon realizing the type of judgement Dany likes to exact, Sam chooses to quicken the pace and tell Jon the truth. My guess is Jon doesn't tell Dany for at least another episode.

[janjan]

Ooooo, Ginger and Puppy beat me to it -- so many good thoughts, better than mine. I'll admit that I kept getting yanked out of the moment by the obvious contrivances. Yup, it was full-circle back to S1E1, with the royal entourage arriving at Winterfell, and ending with the brief encounter of Jaime and Bran. (Bran isn't Bran anymore, as he has reminded us, so he certainly won't mind seeing Jaime.)

The ep was setting the stage, just as S1E1 was -- not much action but rather moving the pieces into place. Even if it meant strong-arming them. (Why is Theon coming now, when he wouldn't before?) And the welcome paring of subplots. (Yara's going home? Where Urine has been proclaimed king?) You can see different writers at work since A Show rocketed past the books. Blowing up the Sept of Baylor, with all those subplots inside, was most liberating. Whatever it takes to get rid of them.

And whatever it takes to get the pieces in place. Sansa's one remark ("How are we going to feed them?") was the only nod to the logistical impossibility of having two massive armies parked outside. With no tents or winter clothes. (Both Napoleon and Hitler learned how that works out.) And Urine's crew remains obedient, even after he has cut out their tongues and left the ship with no obvious overseer. Jeez, they outnumber him, fer gawd's sake. I could go on . . .

But hey, suspension of disbelief is what makes A Show truly great. Just spare us the lame jokes ("Dragons eat anything they want") and stick with the good ones ("I really wanted those elephants") -- best after-sex line ever!

[gingerella]

4 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

With Jaime abandoning the cause, she sleeps with Euron to pass her child off as his I presume. I guess she really must be pregnant. At least she actually thinks she is. Some of us were speculating that she was lying to keep Jaime loyal. Apparently, not the case. She did seem rightfully disgusted with herself after the whole ordeal.

Also, NEW OPENING CREDITS. They only had three locations, so they made the most of it. I wonder how much of Westeros will be "ice" by the end of the series.

Ye Gods, Pup, I didn't even think of that, DUH! Of course, that's why she stopped and gave a "okay, I'll let you schtup me" look. Urine is so disgusting in every way, but in that way they are a perfect match too.

I forgot to mention the Opening Credits...While sort of cool, I found them to be distracting and I couldn't really see what areas we were in, so it didn't really work for me. Plus, there is simply no need to change the opening credits for the final season.  If they did it every season, okay, but it's a formula we've seen for 7 seasons, don't change it now. It just felt like change for the sake of change, which I'm not a fan of. I did notice that the orb/sphere thingamabob at the beginning of the opening started with a dragon spitting fire down upon The Wall. I tried to catch the other piece of orb that flashed by but couldn't make out what it was.

Was Qyburn Cersei's Hand last season? I can't remember. That's dangerous. I can't make out if he'll realize that he needs to do something with his magic prowess or not. Or perhaps he has a spell reversal for what's marching South, though I'm still not sure the Dead will make it that far.

janjan, Welcome Home! There are plenty of ravens waiting for you...

Edited April 15, 2019 by gingerella

[DirewolfPup]

14 minutes ago, gingerella said:

I forgot to mention the Opening Credits...While sort of cool, I found them to be distracting and I couldn't really see what areas we were in, so it didn't really work for me. Plus, there is simply no need to change the opening credits for the final season.  If they did it every season, okay, but it's a formula we've seen for 7 seasons, don't change it now. It just felt like change for the sake of change, which I'm not a fan of. I did notice that the orb/sphere thingamabob at the beginning of the opening started with a dragon spitting fire down upon The Wall. I tried to catch the other piece of orb that flashed by but couldn't make out what it was.

Was Qyburn Cersei's Hand last season? I can't remember. That's dangerous. I can't make out if he'll realize that he needs to do something with his magic prowess or not. Or perhaps he has a spell reversal for what's marching South, though I'm still not sure the Dead will make it that far.

Agree about the opening credits, Ging. I thought they looked cool, and they had the same form and feel to them. Though I wish they'd pulled back so I could see what they were "building" as opposed to seeing some random thing build that I can't see or tell what it is. My guess is with only 3 locations, the opening credits would have been too short, so they changed it up a bit.

Yes, Qyburn has been the hand of the queen since her reign began. He's either going to save or destroy this world.

[WhiteStumbler]

1 hour ago, janjan said:

Yup, it was full-circle back to S1E1, with the royal entourage arriving at Winterfell

At that S1E1 royal visit to Winterfell, there were Starks, Lannisters, a Baratheon, and a secret Targaryen bastard. At this one there were Starks, Targaryens, a Lannister, and a secret Baratheon bastard. As they said on True Detective, "Time is a flat circle..."

52 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

My guess is with only 3 locations, the opening credits would have been too short,

I also think that there is some significance to the way the credits show us the layout of the respective castles. I have a feeling that this battle to "bring the dawn" (as the prophecy that Mel quoted said) is going to be won by the closest of shaves.

Random thoughts:

LOVED the look on Arya's face when dragons flew over The North and she saw one for the first time. Everyone else was cowering and shrieking, but she was like "me want yes please".

I think Sansa might have had two of the best lines of the night - referring to the wedding that killed off Joffrey: "It had it's moments", and her retort to Tyrion believing that Cersei would send her army to fight alongside the Stark / Targaryen forces: "I used to think you were the cleverest man alive."

I think that Cersei's response to Urine boasting about how he would "I'm going to put a prince in your belly" was genuine pain. She looked distressed, and her hands instinctively went to her abdomen - I think that she lost the child.

Not super crazy about Jon and Dany flying the dragons off for a make-out romp near a icy waterfall. Seems a bit frivolous, but it looked pretty good. I liked how Dany's line "We could stay a thousand years, no one would find us" was a distant echo of Ygritte's response to kissing Jon in another snowy environment with falling water "Let's not go back. Let's stay here a while longer. I don't ever want to leave this cave, Jon Snow."

Gendry's first "as you wish, milady" to Arya was super cute.

Why didn't Dany at least express some human emotion to Sam over executing his father and younger brother? "I'm sorry for your loss". "I regret that I was forced to deal with them so harshly". Something!

It seems unlikely that Edd, Tormund, and Beric all make it to Winterfell, but stranger things have happened.

I keep waiting for someone to say: An army of dead men, in divisions each led by a zombified Craster incest baby, is coming to kill us all. 

WHERE WAS GHOST?

[janjan]

Yes, O Stumbler, I want GHOST!! He was missing all through S7, but he has to come back -- he's Jon's only hope for company on the Iron Throne.

I'm not shipping Eggy and Dany anymore. He's still his noble self, but she's gone cold. The way she told Sam about his family was heartless, and she said at the time that she felt nothing when she dumped Dario. Maybe her heart died with Drogo. Except for her children, of course, but they're kind of, well, scaly.

And after this week's bravura performance, I betcha Sansa will be another Elizabeth I -- married to the realm, or at least to the North. None of the prospective mates are worthy of her, and what does she need them for anyway.

But Arya and Gendry? That's a lock.

The big outstanding question is Brienne: Jaime or Tormund?

[WhiteStumbler]

1 hour ago, DirewolfPup said:

The Wall. That's where the credits started their sequence started.

Re-watched the credits. The Wall, Last Hearth (with a bunch of tiles flipping over to icy blue in a path from the Wall Breach to Last Hearth), then Winterfell (with a much more robust looking weirwood tree - maybe because Bran is there?), then KL (with the map-floored courtyard that Cersei had painted clearly visible) were the places I could see.

I am going to guess that the tiles flipping to blue will track the Night King's progress south.

1 hour ago, janjan said:

The big outstanding question is Brienne: Jaime or Tormund?

Assuming Jaime survives long. The man defenestrated Bran, so the Starks want him dead, and killed the father of the Dragon Queen, a man he swore to protect. My guess is that Bran will speak up for Jaime by pointing out the million residents of KL that were saved by his actions when the Mad King wanted to "burn them all."

ETA: Just remembered that Jorah once fought for the Golden Company before pledging his sword to Viserys. I wonder if Jorah knows the leader of the Golden Company, Captain Strickland?

Edited April 15, 2019 by WhiteStumbler

[Anothermi]

On 4/14/2019 at 11:33 PM, gingerella said:

Given this is the final opening episode of the final season, I was surprised at how slow the pace felt, and yet looking back, there was a lot packed hour. 

I agree, Ging. I (happily) did not experience the sense of galloping through story lines in a race to the end - like I did in previous seasons. I got to be completely focused on the interactions between the characters.

On 4/15/2019 at 3:02 PM, WhiteStumbler said:

Re-watched the credits. The Wall, Last Hearth (with a bunch of tiles flipping over to icy blue in a path from the Wall Breach to Last Hearth), then Winterfell (with a much more robust looking weirwood tree - maybe because Bran is there?), then KL (with the map-floored courtyard that Cersei had painted clearly visible) were the places I could see.

Thanks, @WhiteStumbler.  I'll have to go back and pay closer attention. I did notice the change in the credits and recognized that we were seeing a great deal more than the outside of the location's Keep but was too impatient to get into the show to linger over what we were being shown. My thoughts - when I realized they were new - were that there must have been enough space between S07 and S08 to unleash the power of the creative forces that brought us the oh-so-satisfying initial, familiar credits. It made me happy. Like an unexpected gift.

And now that you mention it - I did wonder about those white "tiles". Hope you are correct about them tracking the progress of the Army of the Dead from episode to episode. That would be awesome.

On 4/14/2019 at 11:33 PM, gingerella said:

Speaking of Lyanna Mormont, I’m curious to see her and Jorah meet, he’s from the same House, yes? I wonder if his presence supersedes hers? She’s a little badass and I don’t think she’d step down for anyone, to be honest. 

That would only be an issue if whoever is left to rule after the War with the Dead decides to replace Lady Mormont (assuming she's still alive and the Dead haven't won the day). However, I don't think Jorah would accept the position even if it was offered to him. He is now very aware of how much he dishonoured his father & his House. At this point I believe he just wants to be of service to Dany. He's found his true place in the world. (Pretty sure the Bear Islanders wouldn't want him back regardless.)

On 4/14/2019 at 11:33 PM, gingerella said:

Poor little Ned Umber...I jumped when his body started squeeing! 

Yes! Waaaay more unnerving than the first little zomboni girl impaled on the tree branch back at the opening of S01E01! The WW ritual designs are now much more "artistic" and the newly minted zombonies more ferocious (RIP Ned's little namesake). Yay! for Dondarion of the flaming sword being ready and cool headed enough to act quickly. Wasn't it Thoros of Myr (the drunken priest/ deadreviver) that Jaime and Ned's long ago right-hand-man spoke about having the flaming sword during the battle with the upstart Greyjoys so many episodes ago?

On 4/14/2019 at 11:33 PM, gingerella said:

Sam - his scenes were really interesting to me retrospect.

Yes indeed. There was a lot there.

In Dany's defense, she had just lauded him for his role in saving Jorah and suggested (something I had been spitballing in my head) that the Citadel could use Sam's kind of "yes we can" leadership.  Once she realized that he was a Tarly and that he didn't know that his father and brother were dead, she didn't protect herself by withholding that fact. (I thought Jorah looked like he would have advised her to take that route) So I appreciated that she told him even though she was the cause instead of leaving it to someone else.

She's learned to not beat around the bush and, to the extent that she had also learned to live with her decisions, I felt she was as gentle with Sam as she was able. In the past she would have yelled about how they SHOULD HAVE BENT THE KNEE! but instead just  laid out what happened (from her perspective, yes,  but not insisting that Sam must see it that way). Of course she didn't explain that Tyrion had suggested another, non-fatal,  punishment. TMI for a would-be ruler to share with a subject.

I also think that Sam held himself together as best he could and that if she had been kinder or the least bit empathetic, it would have robbed him of his justifiable anguish and anger.

On a complete side note - Sam's life as a member of the Night's Watch would have been way more complicated if his father had be required to take the Black. It could have been and entire spinoff on it's own!

Edited April 17, 2019 by Anothermi

[janjan]

Quote

Stumbler of Pale Hue: Assuming Jaime survives long. The man defenestrated Bran, so the Starks want him dead, and killed the father of the Dragon Queen, a man he swore to protect. My guess is that Bran will speak up for Jaime by pointing out the million residents of KL that were saved by his actions when the Mad King wanted to "burn them all."

Could be, but .... (What did Ned say about everything before the "but"?)

The Starks don't know that Jaime threw Bran out the window -- they've always assumed that was an accident, and focused on who sent the assassin with Knifey. Bran knows, of course, but I doubt if the T-ER cares about such mundane things.

Dany will care, surely, when she sees the infamous Kingslayer, but she knows her father was a baddie, so she might -- might -- forgive. Especially if Bran speaks up for him.

Or maybe she will BBQ him and feed the apparently growing resentment of her harsh ways.

[Anothermi]

3 minutes ago, janjan said:

Bran knows, of course, but I doubt if the T-ER cares about such mundane things.

I definitely agree, janjan.  He did, however, get Sam to tell Jon about his real parentage. And he knew how Sam reacted to the news of his brother's death (in particular). But our Pup pointed out that Bran might tell someone what Jaime did if it served the cause.

I'm ready for Jaime's further "redemption" by him making an unexpected commitment to serve Bran. That would be both atonement and doing-the-right-thing all rolled into one!

[WhiteStumbler]

38 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

Wasn't it Thoros of Myr (the drunken priest/ deadreviver) that Jaime and Ned's long ago right-hand-man spoke about having the flaming sword during the battle with the upstart Greyjoys so many episodes ago?

Outside of King Robert's chambers back in S1E04:
Jory: We've met before, you know.
Jaime: Have we? Strange, I've forgotten.
Jory: The siege of Pyke. We fought side by side one afternoon.
Jaime: Ah. That's where you got your scar?
Jory: Aye.
Jaime: Oh.
Jory: One of the Greyjoys nearly took my eye.
Jaime: Vicious sons of whores.
Jory: They like their bloodshed.
Jaime: They stopped liking it at the end. That was a proper battle. Do you remember Thoros of Myr charging through the breach?
Jory: With his burning sword? I'll remember that ‘till the day I die.

S3E05:
Jorah: It was a bitch of a siege.
Barristan: Mm, you were first through the breach at Pyke?
Jorah: The second. Thoros of Myr went in alone, waving that flaming sword of his.
Barristan: (chuckles) Thoros of Myr. Bloody madman.

S7E06:
Jorah: Something I've always wanted to know.
Thoros: Alright.
Jorah: How drunk were you when you charged through the breach on Pyke?
Thoros: If I’m being honest, I don't remember charging through the breach. Some of the lads told me about it the next morning. Sounded like a good scrap.
Jorah: Aye. It was a proper scrap. The Ironborn thought you were some kind of god. The way you were waving that flaming sword. I thought you were the bravest man I ever saw.
Thoros: Just the drunkest.

Yet it is Beric who wields a flaming sword, not Thoros (that I recall). All this talk of flaming swords reminds me of our introduction to Mel back in the first episode of Season 2:

Melisandre: ...In the ancient books, it's written that a warrior will draw a burning sword from the fire. And that sword shall be Lightbringer. Stannis Baratheon, warrior of light, your sword awaits you. Lord, cast your light upon us! For the night is dark and full of terrors.
All: For the night is dark and full of terror.

Edited April 15, 2019 by WhiteStumbler

[Anothermi]

40 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Yet it is Beric who wields a flaming sword, not Thoros (that I recall).

NOW it is. But Beric hadn't embraced the Lord of Light until Ned sent him to the Riverlands to bring the Mountain back to face the King's justice. That was well after the seige of Pike.

Given that the Thoros revived Beric - who embraced the faith and went on to be the leader of the Brotherhood - it makes sense to me that he inherited the flaming sword responsibilities.

ETA - Anyway, I'd never dare to dispute that many eye witnesses. Thoros seems to do his best work when he's blind drunk. It's the decisions inbetween that are best left to others.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Anothermi

[janjan]

What happened in the great wight battle at the end of S7 when Thoros was killed? Did Beric take up the sword then, or did he have it before Thoros died?

[DirewolfPup]

5 minutes ago, janjan said:

What happened in the great wight battle at the end of S7 when Thoros was killed? Did Beric take up the sword then, or did he have it before Thoros died?

I seem to remember they both had flaming swords. It's odd that I can't remember since I watched that episode yesterday.

[gingerella]

29 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

I seem to remember they both had flaming swords. It's odd that I can't remember since I watched that episode yesterday.

I've always found it odd how I can watch an episode and completely blank on it when posting a little while later. There is sooooo much crammed into A Show that A Viewer's grey matter is maxed out...still turning over a few nuggets from last night, and anxiously awaiting the arrival of @Pallas, @Llywela and @ChocButterfly!

[Anothermi]

I know we first saw Beric wield a flaming sword when Arya and Gendry and the Hound all end up together as "guests (ways of making money)" of the Bw/oB. The Hound ends up fighting Beric and that is when he used a flaming sword. The Hound didn't see THAT coming.

[gingerella]

5 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I definitely agree, janjan.  He did, however, get Sam to tell Jon about his real parentage. And he knew how Sam reacted to the news of his brother's death (in particular). But our Pup pointed out that Bran might tell someone what Jaime did if it served the cause.

I'm ready for Jaime's further "redemption" by him making an unexpected commitment to serve Bran. That would be both atonement and doing-the-right-thing all rolled into one!

I like this idea, that Jaime gets revealed as the Kingslayer to Dany - I mean, how can he NOT given that everyone knows him by that moniker? I’d wager a barrel of our finest Dornish wine that Dany’s initial knee jerk reaction will be to kill him, BUT...Bran will save his ass because Bran will have seen what critical role Jaime is supposed to play in the upcoming Battle, and he’ll know what would happen if Jaime doesnt fulfill his destiny in this thing.

Given how much time Bran got last night, I think we’re finally seeing him play his part, and I’m thinking there will be a reprising of Bran the NuRoot Dude, but maybe not under a tree, but under Winterfell? I say this because the opening credits, while difficult to make out what we were being shown, seemed like a lot of underground passageways, and I assume they’re underneath Winterfell, perhaps passages beyond what we’ve been shown, passages that have been closed off for hundreds of years, but may be opened now for safety...? Just spitballin’ here.

[DirewolfPup]

No one is mentioning the dragon riding and subsequent waterfall makeout scene. That's probably for the best. That whole sequence made me a little annoyed. It's like a poorly placed scene from a live action Disney movie in the middle of Westeros.

Hey Jon, maybe the dragon is staring at you cause your kissing your aunt.

Clearly, I can't get over this accidental incest. I don't see the chemistry between the actors, especially during the old men onlookers scene. I don't get it.

[Pallas]

12 hours ago, gingerella said:

I like this idea, that Jaime gets revealed as the Kingslayer to Dany - I mean, how can he NOT given that everyone knows him by that moniker? I’d wager a barrel of our finest Dornish wine that Dany’s initial knee jerk reaction will be to kill him, BUT...Bran will save his ass because Bran will have seen what critical role Jaime is supposed to play in the upcoming Battle, and he’ll know what would happen if Jaime doesnt fulfill his destiny in this thing.

Dany knows that Jaime is the Kingsguardsman who stabbed her father in the back; what Bran might reveal is the mitigating "why," which Jaime has told no one but us and Brienne. She also knows that before Tyrion fled Westeros, Jaime accepted Tywin's deal to save his life, wanted to stand as his champion, and then found another way to save her Hand. And that Jaime brokered the meeting with Cersei that could have produced a truce or even a temporary alliance, were Cersei not Cersei. Also that he was the only man brave and foolish enough to try to end the war near the front end of a wounded dragon. She claims she's had enough of heroes, but if she has a soft spot left, they claim it. Especially those who'd give life and limb for their siblings.

I don't think the Three-Eyed Raven can see the future, only the past and present, everywhere he chooses to look. But that knowledge, wielded with wisdom, does of course provide insight into what follows from it. Bran and Sam -- Bran the eye, Sam the focus -- make a formidable team.

I suppose I can see why the writers chose to send Sam solo to tell Jon about his lineage. I can even buy that Bran would understand that this unwelcome, unbelievable news would come better to Jon from his far more human brother, and not the grown freak who Jon had loved and protected as a boy. To me, that's a sign that Raven Bran retains the ghost of his strongest emotions, and maybe more. 

But I hated the revelation scene dialogue. Jon and Sam may as well have texted it. We were given an origin story reveal less than half as long as the CGI dragon jaunt, that tired action-adventure montage in which our hero claims his ride (in this case, the one named for his father). Jon's reaction was no more than a set-up line for further earnest exposition, in which Sam laid out facts unchallenged by Jon. Jon, whose reaction to this world-changing, soul-shaking news was allowed to be anyone's best guess. 

A Show's unmooring from its source material was never more obvious. Source material by a writer whose creativity was clearly steeped in drama, which does the job with words and living people. 

[gingerella]

@Pallas, as you know, my memory is shite, but is it the Mad King’s “kill them all” that you’re referring to, that’s only Jaime and Brienne know about? I thought that was common knowledge now, no? Or are you referring to somethIng else? 

As for Bran, maybe he’ll spill the beans about Jaime’s reasoning on killing the Mad King and in doing so, solidify the fact that that he does possess supernatural powers now. As it stands, Dany doesn’t really know what Bran can see vis a vis the TER, right? Maybe this proves to her, and to Jon, what his strengths are in the battle that is coming?

@DirewolfPup, I haven’t mentioned the Disney dragon ride but@WhiteStumbler did, but yeah, it was hella cheesy and felt more like Aladdin than A Show. And the dragons side eye kiss scene was ridiculous. PLUS, why the fuck are they taking a joy ride when end times are marching towards them any day now? Don’t they have better things to do, like strategize and figure out how to distribute the ‘hot off the fire’ dragon glass weaponry, and, yanno, other highly important shit like that? But nope, they’re off on a magic dragon ride to Frozen meets Schmoopyville. Just, NO! That was an entirely unnecessary scene, and made zero sense. 

Quote

At that S1E1 royal visit to Winterfell, there were Starks, Lannisters, a Baratheon, and a secret Targaryen bastard. At this one there were Starks, Targaryens, a Lannister, and a secret Baratheon bastard. As they said on True Detective, "Time is a flat circle..."

^This^ is fabulous @WhiteStumbler, you are our very own Unsullied Maester!

[janjan]

Pallas is back! Glory be unto Pallas in the Highest!! Yes, A Show has devolved into a made-for-tv sensibility -- spectacle at all costs. That embarrassing dragon ride is Exhibit 1 -- it reminded me of Star Wars where Luke is attacking the Bad Planet, with CGI that had already been surpassed by video games.

But when the spectacle is integral to the drama, no one does it better. When Dany & the Dragons attacked the Lannister convoy, that was perhaps the best tv scene ever. Bar none.

Glory be unto GoT in the Highest!! Long may it reign!!!

[WhiteStumbler]

3 hours ago, Pallas said:

Dany knows that Jaime is the Kingsguardsman who stabbed her father in the back; what Bran might reveal is the mitigating "why," which Jaime has told no one but us and Brienne. She also knows that before Tyrion fled Westeros, Jaime accepted Tywin's deal to save his life, wanted to stand as his champion, and then found another way to save her Hand. And that Jaime brokered the meeting with Cersei that could have produced a truce or even a temporary alliance, were Cersei not Cersei. Also that he was the only man brave and foolish enough to try to end the war near the front end of a wounded dragon. She claims she's had enough of heroes, but if she has a soft spot left, they claim it. Especially those who'd give life and limb for their siblings.

Outstanding! All of the above is why Dany should spare Jaime. And welcome back!

3 hours ago, Pallas said:

the CGI dragon jaunt, that tired action-adventure montage in which our hero claims his ride (in this case, the one named for his father).

I didn't get the sense that Jon was "claiming" anything, more that he wanted to appear brave in front of Dany and thought he would give riding a dragon a try. Jon seems much more a reactive rather than a strategic thinker.

I do think that there might be a very necessary reason for this scene early on in the show - to demonstrate that Jon can ride a dragon (an actual dragon, people! Get your minds out of the Kings Landing gutters!!). Thinking that this will be significant rather soon.

14 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

I seem to remember they both had flaming swords. It's odd that I can't remember since I watched that episode yesterday.

Beric has always fought with a flaming sword. It appeared to be blood-activated in the fight against The Hound in the BwoB cave. In every scene that we have seen Beric's Flaming Sword, he sort of runs his hand along the blade prior to it bursting into flame. On rewatch, I see that Thoros and Beric both had a flaming sword in the fight against the zomboni polar bear - it was the first time we had seen Thoros fight, and the first time we saw two flaming swords at once! Thoros died during the first night on the island in the middle of the frozen lake, and during the zomboni attack (thanks, Clegane!) only Beric has a flaming sword.

Also, I re-watched the Jon & Dany Arrival at Winterfell scene again, and Brienne is in the reception line, though she didn't have any lines in the episode.

Edited April 16, 2019 by WhiteStumbler

[DirewolfPup]

21 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Also, I re-watched the Jon & Dany Arrival at Winterfell scene again, and Brienne is in the reception line, though she didn't have any lines in the episode.

Okay. I figured I missed it. Glad to know one of us is paying attentions to such things.

[WhiteStumbler]

55 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

Glad to know one of us is paying attentions to such things.

On re-watch, I was amazed I missed the woman Jaime once described as "a humorless mute" and "a giant towheaded plank". 😀

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, WhiteStumbler said:

I do think that there might be a very necessary reason for this scene early on in the show - to demonstrate that Jon can ride a dragon (an actual dragon, people! Get your minds out of the Kings Landing gutters!!). Thinking that this will be significant rather soon.

Let us also not forget Arya's love of dragons and long held desire to ride one...But with only two dragons on the side of the Living, what is her place in line and is she tall enough for the ride? 😉

[WhiteStumbler]

18 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Arya's love of dragons and long held desire to ride one

I remember the conversation between Arya and Tywin where she described how Aegon and his sisters Rhaenys and Visenya rode dragons into battle, but I don't remember any explicit desire on her part to ride a dragon.

Given Arya's expression at seeing a dragon over Winterfell, though...

Edited April 16, 2019 by WhiteStumbler
clarity

[Pallas]

4 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

I didn't get the sense that Jon was "claiming" anything, more that he wanted to appear brave in front of Dany and thought he would give riding a dragon a try. Jon seems much more a reactive rather than a strategic thinker.

I do think that there might be a very necessary reason for this scene early on in the show - to demonstrate that Jon can ride a dragon...

That's so true, Jon the reactive thinker. Like uncle, like nephew.

And the dragon ride definitely served as a forerunner. By saying that Jon "claimed" his seat, I meant that Jon took his place as the hero of song and screen who meets, mounts and tests his soon-to-fabled ride into battle: his horse, ship, car, plane, motorcycle, starship...

[janjan]

Re: dragon ride. I got the sense that Jon was mildly curious and aware that it might be a useful skill in the War to Come, -- and not too embarrassed to have Dany see him fumble around. It was Dany who led him to the Waterfall of Love. Since I can't stop thinking meta about this ep [thanks, writers -- now stop with the contrivances], I suspect that the only purpose was to get A Viewer invested in the budding love story, and thus to make it all the more poignant when Dany bites it. < Spitball incoming! > She will, you know -- that scene sealed her fate.

The scene was redeemed by Drogon giving Jon the stink eye for shtupping his mother.

Edited April 16, 2019 by janjan

[gingerella]

9 minutes ago, janjan said:

I suspect that the only purpose was to get A Viewer invested in the budding love story, and thus to make it all the more poignant when Dany bites it. < Spitball incoming! > She will, you know -- that scene sealed her fate. 

The scene was redeemed by Drogon giving Jon the stink eye for shtupping his mother.

If they're trying to parallel Jon & Ygritte, then Dany will have to try and kill Jon for some reason, like Ygritte did. But perhaps this time Jon takes her out instead of someone else. I'm trying to think of a situation where Dany turns on Jon. Is she is so invested in this war, and she's seen with her own eyes what's coming at them, then there isn't a way forward that explains why she'd turn on Jon for being the rightful heir and her nephew, at least not before the war with the Dead. She's full of herself and impetuous, and often speaks before thinking how it'll sound to the other person(s), but she's not fully stupid and I don't think she'd take out Jon for being the rightful heir, not right now, when they have the battle of their lives coming. Then again, they shouldn't be out joy riding dragons to Disney sets either right now, so what do I know?

That last sentence in @janjan's quote...perhaps Dany bites the bullet and Jon is able to harness the power of the dragons because they saw how he felt about Dany and she about him? Maybe that sacchriney scene was to set up something along those lines? After all, if Dany dies in battle, who's going to control/use the dragons?

Edited April 16, 2019 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

3 hours ago, Pallas said:

That's so true, Jon the reactive thinker. Like uncle, like nephew.

I have to ask: Which uncle? The Starks (Ned or Benjen) or  the Targaryens (Viserys)?

7 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

...but I don't remember any explicit desire on her part to ride a dragon.

Given Arya's expression at seeing a dragon over Winterfell, though...

It's true, I too don't remember her explicitly saying she wanted to ride a dragon, but both scenes you've mentioned, it's her expression that does the talking to me.

One thing, though. Dany's dragons have only (until Jon) been accepting of Dany and, strangely, Tyrion. I had a spitball forming that they accepted Jon due to the fabled: "Fee, Fye, Foh, FUN. I smell the blood of Tar-gar-y-un" factor.  But that doesn't explain Tyrion. However, they had been on a hunger strike... and Dany wasn't around... and he was being small and very respectful...

Jorah never got the welcome by Dany's dragons that Jon got. That's why I wondered if they were more accepting of Targs.

It's clear that any sort of riff-raff can catch a RIDE on a dragon if Dany says so, but driving one ON YOUR OWN seems to be a different set of circumstances.

Despite what I've mulled over above, I think in the right, desperate circumstances...

Arya might get her chance.

[gingerella]

25 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

t's true, I too don't remember her explicitly saying she wanted to ride a dragon, but both scenes you've mentioned, it's her expression that does the talking to me.

True, but I thought in S01, we saw her talking about how much she wanted to ride one, or how much she wanted to be like one of the Targ sisters and ride one. Maybe I'm wrong since nobody else remembers that, but maybe it was the way she spoke about it that I always assumed it was a dream of hers.

[janjan]

Where's our Stumbler, Keeper of the Flame, Maester of all that has occurred. I think it was one of Arya's conversations with Tywin when she was his cup-bearer. Or else not (?).

[Llywela]

Okay, I have watched, I had thoughts...and then I went to bed and had a restless night, and all those thoughts evaporated like snow in the sun. Lemme see if I can remember what I wanted to say.

Remember back in the early seasons when everyone was off in sub-plots of their own, and every now and then a couple of those sub-plots would come together very briefly before bouncing off in new directions, and how epic those meetings always felt, seeing characters interact who had never met in multiple seasons of the show? Yeah, this episode felt like that, but writ large, with a huge propportion of the cast all coming together in a single location for the first time in A Show's history. Gave me chills, it really did. Characters reuniting who haven't seen one another in years. Characters who have been around from the start finally meeting for the first time, after all these years. I loved that the episode made time to explore so many of those dynamics. And although I have tentatively peeked this morning at a few reactions to the episode and have seen it called 'slow' in a few places, I didn't find it slow at all. I thoroughly enjoyed the dynamics and the smaller character stories being told throughout, and was surprised to look back at the end of the episode and realise just how much ground had been covered, setting the scene for the season ahead. The action might have been primarily character-based, but it never stopped for a moment.

Seeing little Lord Umber and the young spitfire Lady Lyanna Mormont made me think wistfully for a moment of the late lamented Shireen, which in turn made me think about the endgame A Show is now cantering toward,  the question it for so many years now has wanted us to ponder - who will end up on the Iron Throne - and how the options therein have been carefully pared down over the years. If Shireen had lived, she would have always represented the Baratheon claim to the throne that Jon, like Ned before him, believed in so strongly. Therefore Shireen had to die so that the Baratheons very legitimate claim could die with her. Ditto the Lannister children, who might have been fathered by Cersei and Jaime's incest, but were nonetheless in the eyes of the law considered the legitimate offspring of King Robert, who had claimed the throne through right of conquest. By clearing the ground of all these claimants, A Show seems to be steering us back toward the Targaryens (whether Jon, Dany or both) as the 'rightful' heirs to the Iron Throne - although weren't the Targaryens foreign invaders in the first instance? There is probably a lot of parsing that could be done there, but I'm too tired to get into it, so I'll just note that the removal of so many other claimants to the throne does feel like A Show steering us toward the Targaryens as inevitable endgame rulers. Of course, A Show does like to throw in left field twists and turns from time to time, so that what seems the likeliest outcome rarely comes to pass, but it is getting pretty late in the game for anything of that nature now.

Of the two Targaryens, Jon definitely feels at this stage like the one A Show is lining up to ultimately win the game of thrones, not just because, with the reveal of his true parentage, his claim now supersedes Dany's in terms of strict legitimacy, but also because Dany's fundamental instability and inflexibility as ruler is being brought more and more to the fore. They are both pretty unyielding characters, but Jon's warmth of heart and the high moral code to which he was raised are tempering forces that Dany lacks. Dany simply wants to rule, at any cost - if she has to rule through fear, demanding respect by force, then by god that's what she will do...and A Show has already demonstrated through characters like Joffrey, Ramsay, and the history of the Targaryens, how badly that tends to work out in the long run. There was a moment that really made me go 'uh oh', when she was talking to Jon about Sansa, and basically said, 'your sister had better respect me, or else', and I thought to myself, 'damn, girl, do not start threatening your chief ally's sister, do not make him choose between you, especially not at a time like this, it will not end well.' But that's Dany's default reaction to insecurity. She goes cold and hard and goes all out to crush whatever is making her feel that way, for better or for worse.

Jon, on the other hand, a man with no desire for power who keeps finding himself in positions of ever-increasing power regardless (the Iron Throne would be the ultimate culmination of that particular character trajectory!), has been amply shown to also be a man capable of inspiring tremendous loyalty and unity among even the unlikeliest of followers, a man capable of tempering justice with mercy. So it does feel very much as if we are moving toward King Jon for reals (whether with Dany as his incest bride or not)...which probably means there is a definite Twist In The Tail still to come!

Got to admit, I'm beyond fed up of Cersei and her horrible alliance with revolting Euron Greyjoy. Why is A Show so obsessed with always having at least one utterly loathsome male villain with no redeeming features whatsoever? I mean, Cersei is pretty much beyond having any redeeming features herself at this point, but at least the character has massive amounts of depth and baggage, accrued over the years. Brought in at a very late stage, apparently simply to fill the 'revolting male' gap in the market, and divorced from much in the way of history of connection with pretty much anyone in the cast at all, Euron Greyjoy has no dimensions whatsoever, and the character falls completely flat as a result,  Urgh.

Sansa was absolutely the MVP of this episode - she absolutely killed it in every interaction she had. I'm sad that we didn't get to see her and Arya together, to actually see the new dynamic they have formed, but I really loved the little snippets we got of them talking about one another. Sansa so casually accepting of Arya's roaming ways when Jon asked where she was, and Arya so quick to defend Sansa when Jon started to belittle her behind her back. It all spoke such volumes for the relationship the sisters have formed now, and I really want to see more of it.

On 4/15/2019 at 7:33 AM, gingerella said:

Loved seeing Gendry making a big comeback, and playing such a huge role in making the dragon glass weapons. And whoever was shipping Gendry and Arya, booyah! Those two were adorable, not a word we often use for A Show.

Got to be honest, I still feel a bit weird about Arya-Gendry shipping, given that when they first met and became friends he was already of age and she was, like, 10 years old. But she's all grown up now, and that kind of age gap is not uncommon in any society, especially one of this nature.

On 4/15/2019 at 6:09 PM, janjan said:

 (Why is Theon coming now, when he wouldn't before?) 

I think because he has rescued Yara now - he wouldn't go with Jon before because he knew his sister had been captured by their evil uncle and couldn't, wouldn't leave her there. Getting her out was his first priority, and having done so, he is now free (with her blessing) to pursue the higher cause. Yeah, Theon is definitely toast by the time the season is done.

On 4/15/2019 at 2:29 PM, DirewolfPup said:

Sam. Poor guy learning about his family's demise from the person who demised it. His father was a dick, but his brother seemed like a good dude. Somewhat bro-like, but inoffensive. I wonder if he'll get to be the Lord of House Tarly after all. Upon realizing the type of judgement Dany likes to exact, Sam chooses to quicken the pace and tell Jon the truth. My guess is Jon doesn't tell Dany for at least another episode.

Ye gods, can you even imagine that conversation? "Hey, sweetheart, you know how we've got this nice little thing going wherein, having bent the knee, you now take me dragon-riding to romantic icy waterfalls for covert sexy fun times? And you know how your entire life's work and self-image have been built around your claim to the Iron Throne as the last surviving Targaryen? Well, funny story, but..." Sheesh.

17 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

I do think that there might be a very necessary reason for this scene early on in the show - to demonstrate that Jon can ride a dragon (an actual dragon, people! Get your minds out of the Kings Landing gutters!!). Thinking that this will be significant rather soon.

Good point, although the scene really didn't have to go on as long as it did - the point could have been made far more concisely (and thus cheaply!)

11 hours ago, gingerella said:

That last sentence in @janjan's quote...perhaps Dany bites the bullet and Jon is able to harness the power of the dragons because they saw how he felt about Dany and she about him? Maybe that sacchriney scene was to set up something along those lines? After all, if Dany dies in battle, who's going to control/use the dragons?

Interesting idea! As a Targaryen, could Jon control Dany's babies in Dany's absence? Is the Mother of Dragons entirely necessary for the deployment of said dragons, if they are willing to bond with someone else? Is Targaryen blood necessary for said bonding?

[WhiteStumbler]

13 hours ago, gingerella said:

True, but I thought in S01, we saw her talking about how much she wanted to ride one, or how much she wanted to be like one of the Targ sisters and ride one. Maybe I'm wrong since nobody else remembers that, but maybe it was the way she spoke about it that I always assumed it was a dream of hers.

12 hours ago, janjan said:

Where's our Stumbler, Keeper of the Flame, Maester of all that has occurred. I think it was one of Arya's conversations with Tywin when she was his cup-bearer. Or else not (?).

The only instance where Arya and Tywin discuss dragons (or that Arya mentions the word dragon, as far as I can recall) is this exchange...

Tywin: Yes, dragons happened. Harrenhal was built to withstand an attack from the land. A million men could have marched on these walls and a million men would have been repelled. But an attack from the air with dragon fire-- mm. Harren and all his sons roasted alive within these walls. Aegon Targaryen changed the rules. That's why every child alive still knows his name Aegon.
Arya: And his sisters.
Tywin: Mm?
Arya: It wasn't just Aegon riding his dragon. It was Rhaenys and Visenya, too.
Tywin: Correct. A student of history, are you?
Arya: Rhaenys rode Meraxes. Visenya rode Vhagar.
Tywin: I'm sure I knew that when I was a boy.
Arya: Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior. She had a Valyrian steel sword she called Dark Sister.
Tywin: Hmm. She's a heroine of yours, I take it? Aren't most girls more interested in the pretty maidens from the songs? Jonquil with the flowers in her hair?
Arya: Most girls are idiots.

[Anothermi]

On 4/17/2019 at 3:16 AM, Llywela said:

Okay, I have watched, I had thoughts...and then I went to bed and had a restless night, and all those thoughts evaporated like snow in the sun. Lemme see if I can remember what I wanted to say.

Excellent thoughts on this Episode, @Llywela! Brava!

On 4/17/2019 at 3:16 AM, Llywela said:

Characters reuniting who haven't seen one another in years. Characters who have been around from the start finally meeting for the first time, after all these years. I loved that the episode made time to explore so many of those dynamics.

Well put. This expresses how I felt watching this episode much better than I did.

On 4/17/2019 at 3:16 AM, Llywela said:

Of the two Targaryens, Jon definitely feels at this stage like the one A Show is lining up to ultimately win the game of thrones, not just because, with the reveal of his true parentage, his claim now supersedes Dany's in terms of strict legitimacy, but also because Dany's fundamental instability and inflexibility as ruler is being brought more and more to the fore. They are both pretty unyielding characters, but Jon's warmth of heart and the high moral code to which he was raised are tempering forces that Dany lacks.

~~~~~

Jon, on the other hand, a man with no desire for power who keeps finding himself in positions of ever-increasing power regardless (the Iron Throne would be the ultimate culmination of that particular character trajectory!), has been amply shown to also be a man capable of inspiring tremendous loyalty and unity among even the unlikeliest of followers, a man capable of tempering justice with mercy. So it does feel very much as if we are moving toward King Jon for reals (whether with Dany as his incest bride or not)...which probably means there is a definite Twist In The Tail still to come!

Good arguments for Jon as a top contender (and I am definitely preparing myself for the likely twist in the tale). Jon definitely has the makings of a one-of-a-kind change maker. (or, as janjan calls him, "Eggy": the 2nd? isn't it?)

Aegon #I bred huge, fierce dragons, had faced losing Valyria, his homeland, and went far away to create a new, better world (at least in his mind). He put new rules in place and, arguably, united Westeros from separate, warring kingdoms to a loosely-knit united country.

Aegon #6 (Jon's actual rank thanks to the raven eared Stumbler) started life as less-than and learned to expect nothing tangible. He relied on being the kind of man his father was - honourable, firm but fair for his goal in life. He wasn't above forging alliances with people deemed to be below him (taught this by no less than Tyrion). His commitment was to broad ideals (honour, The North, The Watch, defense of the whole country). His life experience taught him to see his ancient enemies were also just human beings and that this needs to be kept in mind when dealing with all enemies.

Dany was brought up believing she, her family, deserved to rule.

Jon was brought up to believe he didn't deserve anything but to earn respect by living up to his ideals.

Jon is winning this comparison, truly. But he really doesn't like ruling per se. THAT is his weakness. (Robert B didn't like ruling either but Jon does have a better developed respect for those who can do it well.)

I'm not really that invested in who gets The Throne and hope that Dany's vision in the tower at Qarth - of an empty throne and a ruined Red Keep - is the direction A Show is headed.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Anothermi
correct which Eggy that Jon is.

[janjan]

39 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

I'm not really that invested in who gets The Throne and hope that Dany's vision in the tower at Qarth - of an empty throne and a ruined Red Keep - is the direction A Show is headed. 

Oooo yes, I forgot about that. The throne room looked burned, didn't it -- all black and charred, as only dragons could do. The Great War Still to Come must make it all the way south, but whose dragon dunnit? There was a great idea upthread that the Great War can't be the end of the story. There will be many pieces to pick up no matter who wins. Now that Dany is no longer the only one with dragon-fire to command, we can only hope that Cersei gets toasted by red flames instead of blue ones.

[janjan]

Hmmm. I heard a rumor that George Lucas helped with the filming of S8E1. I didn't follow it up, because I'm pure and unsullied. But that would explain why the dragon ride to the incest waterfall (TM Pup) looked so much like early Star Wars.

[WhiteStumbler]

31 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

(or, as janjan calls him, "Eggy": the 2nd? isn't it?

Sixth. Sam tells AegJon (Eggy is good too) "You're the true king. Aegon Targaryen, Sixth of His Name, Protector of the Realm, all of it."

So there were 5 prior Targaryen kings named Aegon, the first being The Conqueror. One of the most recent (5th of his name I am pretty sure) was Maester Aemon's brother, who ruled "when I had refused the Throne". The Mad King followed.

The book that Tyrion gives to Joffrey for his wedding gift is "'The Lives of Four Kings.' Grand Maester Kaeth's history of the reigns of Daeron the Young Dragon, Baelor the Blessed, Aegon the Unworthy, and Daeron the Good." Not sure if Aegon the Unworthy was Maester Aemon's brother or not.

Shireen also mentions another Targaryen named Aegon to her father (but doesn't mention if he was named King or not) -
Stannis: What are you reading?
Shireen: "The Dance of Dragons."
Stannis: What's it about?
Shireen: It's the story of the fight between Rhaenyra Targaryen and her half-brother Aegon for control over the Seven Kingdoms. Both of them thought they belonged on the Iron Throne. When people started declaring for one of them or the other, their fight divided the kingdoms in two. Brothers fought brothers, dragons fought dragons. By the time it was over, thousands were dead. And it was a disaster for the Targaryens as well. They never truly recovered.

There was at least one Prince Aegon - Jon's half brother who was killed by The Mountain was also named Aegon. In the BwoB cave, Thoros said "House Clegane was built upon dead children. I saw them lay Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenys before the Iron Throne." The only time The Mountain would have killed Tararyen children was at the sack of KL just after Jaime killed the Mad King. So Jon's father / Dany's brother had two children named Aegon, but I can't figure out who came first and if Jon was named Aegon as a tribute to his dead half-brother, or if Raegar just really, really liked the name Aegon. Maybe he was the Westeros = of George Foreman, who famously gave all his male kids the same name?

Can't wait to see Dany's reaction when she hears that someone else is "rightful king of the Andals and the First Men." Uh oh.

[Pallas]

55 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

So Jon's father / Dany's brother had two children named Aegon, but I can't figure out who came first

Prince Aegon, killed by the Mountain at Tywin's command, was the son of Rhaegar and (Oberyn's sister) Elia Martell -- from the marriage that Rhaegar later annulled. So Prince Aegon and his sister were already children before Lyanna's son was born. In fact, they likely were already dead in King's Landing before Jon was born in the tower in Dorne.

[janjan]

3 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

. . .  The only time The Mountain would have killed Tararyen children was at the sack of KL just after Jaime killed the Mad King.

My beloved Oberyn, when taunting the Mountain, said:

" You raped her! You murdered her! You keeled her cheeldren!"

He sure sounded like Inigo.

[WhiteStumbler]

I rewatched some of the episode last night - Sansa's point about how they were going to feed everyone at Winterfell reminded me of this quote from Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC: "Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."

[janjan]

A couple random thoughts on rewatch:

What's with Jaime's dark hair? Is it just to show that he's not a "Golden Lion" anymore? In the same way Dany's and Cersei's costumes kept getting darker and darker as they evolved, until they were both in black? (Although Dany left her black dress at Dragonstone both times she went North and changed into bridal white.) (Where did she find a dressmaker on that rock  anyway? 🙂 )

I take it back that Bran can't be bothered with such mundane things as Jaime's crippling him. I missed the significance of his reply to Sam that he was sitting in the courtyard "waiting for a friend." (As we were meant to, dang contriving writers.) When Jaime arrived, Bran abandoned his trademark 1000-yard stare and skewered right on him. Uh oh. But maybe saying "a friend" wasn't sarcastic -- maybe he means to thank Jaime for making it all possible, and probably saving humanity to boot.

I'm still creeped out by the opening scene with the little kid running through the crowd and climbing a tree. Yeah, I know, it was eventually revealed to be an echo of Arya's and Bran's actions when Robert arrived in S1E1. But the more immediate echo was of the little kid running through the catacombs under the Sept of Baylor to light the wildfire. And the kid looked more scared than excited. Or maybe he's just not as good an actor as Maisie Williams. (Few people are.)

Why did Bran insist that Sam give Jon the news about his parentage right then? It's clear why Sam would want to:  he now thinks Dany might be dangerous and Jon should think twice about supporting her. But why does Bran think it's urgent that Jon should know? The most immediate effect is likely to be weakening the alliance of Team Living. Huh? Or is Bran, like Sam, thinking of what kind of ruler Dany is likely to be after the war?

Edited April 18, 2019 by janjan
Add another one.

[gingerella]

26 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

I rewatched some of the episode last night - Sansa's point about how they were going to feed everyone at Winterfell reminded me of this quote from Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC: "Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."

Great point KFH! It would be easy for people to say, 'what has Sansa really done though, other than be tortured, tormented and persecuted?" But the thing is, she's been a witness, an observer, to the Realm's worst/best #sorrynotsorry villians and she has silently observed how the worst of Westeros has risen to power and held on to it, and for much of that - Cersei (I'm not including Joff because really that whole charade was Cersei's grab for power as a Dowager Queen), Littlefinger, Ramsey, Littlefinger - she may not have fought back outwardly much in the past, but she endured and she saw everything...She knows what it takes to keep up control and power and what will destroy it. I didn't really think of her in this way until your post KFH, but she really is best suited to rule, if there is a final ruler, and I very much doubt there will be. I think if A Show ends in the way some of us are hoping for, it will be the end of the Iron Throne and a new type of governance will prevail, though that will no doubt be fraught with it's own challenges. Right now, it's very much a King and his serfs type of situation, with some 'lords' and 'warden' set up for higher level local rule, but I think if we're lucky, it's headed for perhaps some sort of 'statehoods'...?

[Llywela]

It occurred to me after I'd posted the above that although it feels very much as if A Show is lining Jon up for the Iron Throne at this stage, if his career trajectory over the course of the last 7 seasons has taught us anything, it is that he will most likely abdicate immediately, having found something better to do with himself. By which logic it'll most likely be Sansa left holding the Iron Throne when the music stops!

Maybe I should stop speculating now...

[gingerella]

@Llywela, there will be time a'plenty to stop speculating, but that time is definitely NOT now!

[janjan]

3 minutes ago, gingerella said:

@Llywela, there will be time a'plenty to stop speculating, but that time is definitely NOT now! 

Word! Carry on, LLywela. And everybody.

Is it Sunday yet?

[Pallas]

4 hours ago, janjan said:

What's with Jaime's dark hair?

A disguise for his ride through the North, I think. 

4 hours ago, janjan said:

When Jaime arrived, Bran abandoned his trademark 1000-yard stare and skewered right on him.

Completely, and Jaime took it in and passed it right through him, on to us. The most emotional moment of the entire episode. And not because, as an encounter between Jaime and Bran, it deftly mirrored the ending of the pilot, or because the dialogue improved. All the writers needed to do was to lean on the heft of the saga before -- trust the actors and the moment -- and let it breathe.

4 hours ago, janjan said:

Why did Bran insist that Sam give Jon the news about his parentage right then?

My guess: Bran believes that Jon Snow the bastard and reluctant leader needs to know himself as Lyanna Stark's son, Aegon Targaryen, to prevail. That for the kind of King that Jon is, self-knowledge generates power.

[Anothermi]

33 minutes ago, Pallas said:

My guess: Bran believes that Jon Snow the bastard and reluctant leader needs to know himself as Lyanna Stark's son, Aegon Targaryen, to prevail. That for the kind of King that Jon is, self-knowledge generates power.

And Jon is going to need some time to process this and there isn't much time to spare.