S14.E18: Absence

[John Potts]

Quote

Sam and Dean continue to worry about the condition of Jack's soul.

[Pondlass1]

Sounds riveting.  😱

[Lady Calypso]

So...my level of care for Mary Winchester is so low, it's basically non-existent. 

Which is why I was annoyed over all the fuss with Mary's death. I didn't need those flashbacks with Mary as her swan song. I guess I should be glad that they made it extra clear that Mary's dead-dead. My biggest worry was them tricking us and having Mary be alive, or in the Empty or something. No surprise she cares more about John than her boys.

I was annoyed at some parts as well. For example, when Sam/Dean got to the bunker, did they really not notice Mary's bag and phone? Also, Dean being so nonchalant about Cas' revelation about the snake for one scene. 

Listen; I get the emotion here. But all I can think of is thanking Jack for losing it on the dumbass who was trying to talk to Jack and tell him to calm down when he was telling her to shut up. 

Honestly, I don't think Mary is worth the tears. Although I did laugh at Jack doing all that work to resurrect her body, only to have them burn it again. 

Seriously, though. I just couldn't care less about Mary so all of these flashbacks were....eh. I feel sad for the boys that their mother wasted her few years back on Earth by running around, spending time anywhere but with either of them for a good chunk of it. 

I don't fully buy that Lucifer was his subconscious. I still think part of Lucifer got in Jack. 

So, my overall thoughts? The show wanted me to cry. I got annoyed instead. 

[Morrigan2575]

I've never been a fan of Mary, don't hate her just mostly indifferent to her. I'm not happy or sad that she died, although it was nice that she got to be with Jon in Heaven this time around.

I spent most of the episode thinking she's not really dead. Also spent the last part of the episode thinking Jack would bring her back. 

I felt bad for Sam/Dean, especially the scene of Dean driving with Mary asleep, he was so happy to have her back. Beyond that, I mostly feel bad for Jack, for what he's going through. I really like that kid and I'm not happy with the way the show seems to be going.

[SmokeIfyougotem]

Hyped up a Michael storyline that they threw away 5 episodes ago. Teased Nickifer all season before killing him last episode. And we’re left with? Jack being mopey and as the lead with the Winchester’s and cass as supporting characters. No wonder they wanted this show to end lol

[trudysmom]

Mary's dead, yay.  The boys are sad, boo.  Cas is sad, more boo.  Jack is darkside, I don't care.  I'm more annoyed by Mark Pellegrino on my tv than anything.  My lord why won't he go away?

[Pondlass1]

Should’ve been titled The Whitewashing of Mother Mary. Good grief I was expecting her to be sporting a halo at the end. She abandoned her sons and shacked up with the enemy. She was ready to let them die to get the Colt. Etc etc. Sheesh! 🙄

Dean looks so beautiful when he’s desolate.  Jack had better watch out.

Hope things will ramp up now.  It’s been pretty blah considering  we’re so close to the end of the season.

Nick is never going away is he?

[tennisgurl]

So Mary is not only merely dead, she is really most sincerely dead. You can tell because of the sappy flashbacks to everyone being in awe of wonderful Mary, and the ending flashes of her in soft lighting. I dont particularly like Mary, but I do feel bad for Sam and Dean losing their mom. Again. 

So she got "complicated" huh? Is that what Mary calls taking every opportunity to squander her second chance to get to know her sons to hang out with every other rando she meets? Sleep with dudes who tortured her sons and innocent people? Has been down to sacrifice them every other time its offered? Its like we went back to pilot era perfect mom Mary, not the Mary that we actually know, she of the bad life choices.

We really can never get rid of Nick, huh? Dude is like the gum perpetually stuck to the bottom of my shoe. Even if its just in Jacks head. 

So after all this drama with MichaelDean, its looks like our real Big Bad is Jack. What a waste of Dean in spiffy outfits being sinister. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Bergamot]

14 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Seriously, though. I just couldn't care less about Mary so all of these flashbacks were....eh. I feel sad for the boys that their mother wasted her few years back on Earth by running around, spending time anywhere but with either of them for a good chunk of it.

Yes. I was rolling my eyes at all those tender flashbacks of moments with Mary, showing how wonderful she was. Moments that we never saw until they decided to kill off the character. Sorry, show, it's too late to try with the character.

Also disliked the gooey sentimentality of the writing in this episode in general, and the way every emotional moment stretched out unbearably. For me sentimentality is trying to buy feelings without being willing to pay a fair price for them, and that's what I felt they were doing. My emotions are not so cheaply bought, and I am not sad that Mary is gone. I sincerely hope that they never bring her back.

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

We really can never get rid of Nick, huh? Dude is like the gum perpetually stuck to the bottom of my shoe. Even if its just in Jacks head. 

LOL, tennisgurl! That's a good description! I am so, so sick of Mark Pellegrino, but we just can't get rid of him.

[Wynne88]

Trying to make Mary more relatable via flashbacks is almost insulting.  And even then, they can't manage a single flashback of her giving Dean some kind of positive reinforcement?  I swear, this is the most tone-deaf set of writers/show-runner I can ever remember.

[SueB]

Well that hurt. 

Unlike many, I loved Mary.  She pissed me off a great deal but I felt for her.  

I’m grateful they gave her a long goodbye in this episode.  And I’m so very very glad that Cas was able to peek into her Heaven and see she’s happy and with John.  That was kind of Duma to let him see.  

I know how much the boys will miss her but I think knowing she’s at peace will really help — eventually.

Quick character thoughts:

-Sam’s POV.  Loved his remembering Mary talked about how difficult parenting was.  And I think his immediate assumption of guilt is Sam 101.  I also loved that he simultaneously supported Dean (who is having the greatest freak out) and Cas.  That last moment when he held back Cas from going to Dean was spot on.  Dean is not ready to unpack everything yet.  And he’s no where ready to hug anyone or hear a comment of sympathy.  Sam understands his brother so well.  And he’s letting Dean come to terms in his own way. 

- Cas’s little memory was sweet.  I’m glad they gave us that insight.  And Cas is just one big ball of pain right now.  So glad he got the closure information on Mary’s Heaven.  

- Dean.  Ouch. Jensen makes Dean’s pain/anger/confusion/horror so very real.  That little moment of joy they shared is exactly what I needed to see.  It’s not words, it’s actions.  And Mary sleeping on his shoulder was awesome and heartrending for me. But at the end of the day, it kinda feels like the biggest ‘threat’ in the room is Dean’s reaction.  Yes, Jack can burn up the planet, but what matters to TFW 2.0 is Dean’s reaction.   Jack is fleeing from it. Cas keeps wanting to make it better. Sam is standing by his side, following his lead and simultaneously providing support and space.  And Winchester 101, when Sam started blaming himself, THAT’s when Dean could coherently acknowledge that they ALL knew there was a problem and ALL wanted Jack to be okay.   Ultimately this will help them come to terms.  But Sam’s instincts are right — not just yet. 

- Jack. Alex did a great job of showing panic and remorse and horror and delusion all at once.  He’s so f*cked up right now.  It’s telling that ‘the devil on his shoulder’ is ... the devil.  Lucifer’s running commentary was both harsh and damaging.  This is only driving Jack to worse mistakes. And he KNOWS he can’t fix it now.  Jack has been a sponge, like any child, absorbing all the feelings and ethos of TFW.  Even if he is dead inside, he’s rightly panicked about what happens next.

-Lucifer delusion- well, I am glad Nick is dead and rotting in a cabin somewhere.  Boys need to salt and burn that and spread the ashes into sewers all around the US.  Just to be sure.  

-Rowena my Queen! Smart, direct, helpful, sympathetic and unambiguously ‘Rowena’ the whole time.   Bless her for saying ‘No’ to Jack when presented with the ash pile.    Even though she thinks Sam is going to kill her, she was risking Jack turning her into ash in that moment.  I tell ‘ya, Sam & Dean’s superpower is the impact they have on others.

- Mary.  I’m glad they let Mary show her softer side in flashbacks.  I don’t give a shit if that pisses others off, it totally worked for me.  This was how I saw Mary and I appreciated that this is what Berens gave us.   Individual moments showing how much Mary meant to each member of TFW.   And she got her ‘happy ever after’ soul-mate Heaven.  Good wrap up for the character.   I’ll miss the softness and vulnerability she brought out in Sam and Dean but I think it’s a good character end.   

Plot points I liked:

-That they immediately went for the resurrection and that the circumstances were unambiguous— no coming back for Mary.

- Everyone turns to Rowena.  She’s become quite the ally.

- Nick and Lucifer are most sincerely dead.  So yes, we wil still get Hellucination!Lucifer but at least he’s not an active threat.   

Expectations:

- Well, I think Dean will live up to his original commitment and take Jack out.  

Note to @AwesomO4000 - yes, they did it. They had Sam say Dean was right 2 years ago. But I think Sam, Dean, and Cas loved and still love Jack.   And Dean acknowledges this.  And that, IMO, made Sam’s choice to try and help Jack the right decision.   

Edited April 12, 2019 by SueB

[tennisgurl]

5 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I swear, this is the most tone-deaf set of writers/show-runner I can ever remember.

I love how even in the perfect Mary flashbacks, she still cant be bothered to actually give him any positive feedback, or tell him what a good person he is. She just sleeps on him. They have to know what they're doing!

[Aeryn13]

Ding Dong...

Since in three Seasons she could never say one complimentary thing to Dean, it's fitting that everyone got a meaningful flashback scene of ""Saint Mary" but him. He got squat.    

This super-retconning of the Ice Queen via flashbacks is ridiculous. They wrote the character one way and now are too cowardly to stand by it.

Called it with Hallucifer.

I don't give a rat's ass about Jack. The character has hijacked (pardon the pun) the entire show.

Im sure Berens is happy with the Dean-hate he brought on. Douche.    

[Ninamags]

So were we supposed to be sobbing and rending garments over this development?

At least the boys got to see her one last time and gave  her a proper hunter funeral.  

Makes you wonder what the point of bringing her back  was.  Maybe the  writers didn’t know what to do with her and so they sent her away for months at a time. 

Maybe our expectations were too pedestrian and we were disappointed for the boys that she wasn’t more of a real, loving, supportive, apple-pie baking person that Dean Idolized. But then what would have been the drama in that? 

Ugh, just let the season end already. 

[Lastcall]

2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I love how even in the perfect Mary flashbacks, she still cant be bothered to actually give him any positive feedback, or tell him what a good person he is. She just sleeps on him. They have to know what they're doing!

It’s very telling when Sam,Jack and Cas’s best memories are with Mary being supportive and complimenting them on how great they are while Dean’s best memory was when Mary’s head fell left instead of right when she was sleeping.

[BabySpinach]

DIE JACK. DIE. GO AWAY.

Welp, we're now down to two episodes left, with no indication that Nougatnatural is going to miraculously morph back into the show I used to love any time soon. It's unbelievably insulting how eagerly Michael!Dean was stomped out and presented on a silver platter to the God-Powered Manbaby. 

Saccharine flashbacks of a recently-deceased character are an incredibly cheesy, overwrought cliche. If Mary had actually been written to be likable and important to the story, we wouldn't have needed them. Ellen and Jo didn't need drippy flashbacks. Nor did Bobby, Crowley, Benny, or even John. Once again, Berens/Dabb think that being genuinely poignant and emotionally affecting means shoving grief porn straight down the viewers' throats. This show has been so dumbed down.

[tennisgurl]

22 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

If Mary had actually been written to be likable and important to the story, we wouldn't have needed them.

Thats pretty consistent with how Mary has been written since she got back, its all tell and little show. We are TOLD that she is a kind of loving mother, but are SHOWN her being cold and uncaring towards her sons, and never prioritizing them and their wellness. We are TOLD she is a badass hunter, but are SHOWN that she is a either just average as a fighter, or a useless damsel in distress. We are TOLD that she is a smart cunning woman, but we are SHOWN an idiot who falls into bed, literally and figuratively, with people she knows have hurt her sons and are clearly sketchy, and thinks that yelling at an uber powered child and getting into his face while he is losing control of his god mode powers is a good idea.

[ZennyKenny]

LIKES:

- the entire first part that grew in tension as the boys went from concerned to worried to panicked.

- the boys really acted their hearts out with the grieving over Mary.

- Sam and Dean having the conversation where they admitted to each other that they both suspected something was wrong with Jack, and that it wasn't just Cas.

- Rowena. Always love me some Rowena.

- It being confirmed that Mary is indeed in Heaven. Where she is staying.

DISLIKES:

- literally anything that implied that Mary was in any way a good mother.

- Nicksifer as Jack's "subconscious" or whatever.

DISAPPOINTED:

- That something "horrible" wasn't brought back by Jack, but just a shell of Mary. It was heavily implied that there was going to be some Pet Semetary in my Supernatura and I got hypedl!!

- I thought Rowena was tricking Jack and was actually creating a binding spell. You know how she does.

LOVED:

- the idea of Jack going full-dark. FINALLY! I wanna see it! Don't let me down show!!

Edited April 12, 2019 by ZennyKenny

[gonzosgirrl]

This is the first episode since I started watching live in Season 10 that I didn't watch live, nor live tweet. I watched with my finger firmly on the ff button, and to my amazement, I didn't use it. Because I was too dumbfounded by the comical sepia flashbacks to this mythical character, Mother Mary. It's more than mildly insulting that they seriously expect us to believe that was the woman they gave us the last three years. Honestly, I fear for Dean's mental health if he really, most sincerely, took what the Ice Queen offered as 'love'. And unless I missed it, there was no crying in the woods. Maybe the scene got cut? Wouldn't be a shocker, given the givens.

The best thing about the episode was Rowena. What a strange, afterschool special the show has become.

[OrigamiNightmare]

44 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

DIE JACK. DIE. GO AWAY.

Welp, we're now down to two episodes left, with no indication that Nougatnatural is going to miraculously morph back into the show I used to love any time soon. It's unbelievably insulting how eagerly Michael!Dean was stomped out and presented on a silver platter to the God-Powered Manbaby. 

Saccharine flashbacks of a recently-deceased character are an incredibly cheesy, overwrought cliche. If Mary had actually been written to be likable and important to the story, we wouldn't have needed them. Ellen and Jo didn't need drippy flashbacks. Nor did Bobby, Crowley, Benny, or even John. Once again, Berens/Dabb think that being genuinely poignant and emotionally affecting means shoving grief porn straight down the viewers' throats. This show has been so dumbed down.

This. All of this.

[S Cook Productions]

52 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

It’s very telling when Sam,Jack and Cas’s best memories are with Mary being supportive and complimenting them on how great they are while Dean’s best memory was when Mary’s head fell left instead of right when she was sleeping.

I would think Dean’s short-changed Mary flashback has more to do with him needing time off for New Orleans than anything derogatory on the part of the writers. IMO, of course  

Other than that, I pretty much agree with SueB. 🙂

[Lastcall]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is the first episode since I started watching live in Season 10 that I didn't watch live, nor live tweet. I watched with my finger firmly on the ff button, and to my amazement, I didn't use it. Because I was too dumbfounded by the comical sepia flashbacks to this mythical character, Mother Mary. It's more than mildly insulting that they seriously expect us to believe that was the woman they gave us the last three years. Honestly, I fear for Dean's mental health if he really, most sincerely, took what the Ice Queen offered as 'love'. And unless I missed it, there was no crying in the woods. Maybe the scene got cut? Wouldn't be a shocker, given the givens.

The best thing about the episode was Rowena. What a strange, afterschool special the show has become.

I know it’s conspiratorial but I truly believe what ever the real Dean/Mary scene was it was way worse then the SNL sketch we saw. I thought Dean was going to be in this far less but he was pretty much in every scene with Sam. The only thing to cut was the Dean/Mary scene. After getting burned by the Michael storyline I can just hear him telling Dabb and co. to write around this episode so he could do the Madri Gras gig. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Lastcall

[S Cook Productions]

24 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

LIKES:

- the entire first part that grew in tension as the boys went from concerned to worried to panicked.

- the boys really acted their hearts out with the grieving over Mary.

- Sam and Dean having the conversation where they admitted to each other that they both suspected something was wrong with Jack, and that it wasn't just Cas.

- Rowena. Always love me some Rowena.

- It being confirmed that Mary is indeed in Heaven. Where she is staying.

DISLIKES:

- literally anything that implied that Mary was in any way a good mother.

- Nicksifer as Jack's "subconscious" or whatever.

DISAPPOINTED:

- That something "horrible" wasn't brought back by Jack, but just a shell of Mary. It was heavily implied that there was going to be some Pet Semetary in my Supernatura and I got hypedl!!

- I thought Rowena was tricking Jack and was actually creating a binding spell. You know how she does.

LOVED:

- the idea of Jack going full-dark. FINALLY! I wanna see it! Don't let me down show!!

OmG, I expected a Pet Sematary too! I even said that aloud during the ep and totally thought that’s where they were going lol. 

[DeeDee79]

I didn't watch tonight so can someone let me know what the "dead to me" scene with Dean and Cas that was supposed to be in this episode was about?

[S Cook Productions]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

I didn't watch tonight so can someone let me know what the "dead to me" scene with Dean and Cas that was supposed to be in this episode was about?

Pretty much exactly what it was foreshadowed to be...

[Lastcall]

4 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

I would think Dean’s short-changed Mary flashback has more to do with him needing time off for New Orleans than anything derogatory on the part of the writers. IMO, of course  

Other than that, I pretty much agree with SueB. 🙂

Regardless, that is Deans best memory of new Mary. Compared to his best heaven memory of his Mary making him sandwich’s and letting him comfort her when she was sad.

[Bergamot]

22 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

- the idea of Jack going full-dark. FINALLY! I wanna see it! Don't let me down show!!

I wouldn't mind seeing this as well. I just don't believe that the show will fully commit to it. Not with all the "poor Jack, it's not his fault" hedges they have erected around the story.

It would seem so bizarre to me though if this storyline for Jack ends with Dean and Sam welcoming him back with open arms and telling him, "It doesn't matter that you killed our mother! You didn't mean to! All that matters is that we're FAMILY!"

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

I would think Dean’s short-changed Mary flashback has more to do with him needing time off for New Orleans than anything derogatory on the part of the writers. IMO, of course  🙂

Yeah, no. Jensen is one of the leads of the show, and the Dean/Mary relationship was (or should have been) the most important one she had, along with Sam. Don't care if Jensen needed a month off, never mind a couple of days. They could and should have shot around that and given him at least one lousy scene in three freaking years where Mary praised him and showed him this love and respect she showed Sam. Fuck that.

ETA and in the one crappy scene they got last week, Dean once again threw shade at himself in order to prop up Mary. He comforted and supported her, not the other way around. In other words, just another day in the life of Dean Winchester.

ETA2: and since they were all flashbacks, that makes it even worse, because they didn't need a particular location or look, they could have filmed it anywhere, any time, if Dabb & Co had any respect for the character at all.

Edited April 12, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Jediknight]

Oh this ain't over, Jack brought something back besides Mary's shell.  They're not dropping that hint, and don't follow up on it.

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Regardless, that is Deans best memory of new Mary. Compared to his best heaven memory of his Mary making him sandwich’s and letting him comfort her when she was sad.

Right?

This is the best that he can expect of/from his family, I guess.

How sad and tragic.

I loved Jensen in this one. 

He's way too good for this show, though.

[Lastcall]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah, no. Jensen is one of the leads of the show, and the Dean/Mary relationship was (or should have been) the most important one she had, along with Sam. Don't care if Jensen needed a month off, never mind a couple of days. They could and should have shot around that and given him at least one lousy scene in three freaking years where Mary praised him and showed him this love and respect she showed Sam. Fuck that.

ETA and in the one crappy scene they got last week, Dean once again threw shade at himself in order to prop up Mary. He comforted and supported her, not the other way around. In other words, just another day in the life of Dean Winchester.

Exactly, all the writers have done is reinforce the fact that Mary has been a cold, distant and emotionally abusive presence in the life of the one person that loves her most in the world. That fact that she shows love to his brother, friend and surrogate makes it so much worse. The irony is the one that seemed hurt the most and that the rest were worried about was the one she never showed love to at all.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Lastcall

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

He's way too good for this show, though.

Understatement.

[Myrelle]

9 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I wouldn't mind seeing this as well. I just don't believe that the show will fully commit to it. Not with all the "poor Jack, it's not his fault" hedges they have erected around the story.

It would seem so bizarre to me though if this storyline for Jack ends with Dean and Sam welcoming him back with open arms and telling him, "It doesn't matter that you killed our mother! You didn't mean to! All that matters is that we're FAMILY!"

I SO! DNW this.

But I'd bet the ranch that it's what we're going to get from Dabb-not a spoiler, just sad spec based on everything that Dabb has given us already.

As for him going "dark", he's just not that to me or menacing or any such thing and I don't think he's ever going to be.

Dean is much, MUCH! darker to me in all of his righteous anger right now-and even while he knows that they all felt this coming.

[Myrelle]

48 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I didn't watch tonight so can someone let me know what the "dead to me" scene with Dean and Cas that was supposed to be in this episode was about?

TBH, I think it was meant to show how deeply the knowledge of her death was going to affect Dean. He lashed out at Cas for not speaking up sooner, but it was shown to be nothing more than that, as we saw later in the episode-which will likely be followed up by the as usual requisite apology from Dean eventually; but not yet-not while everything is still so raw for him.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Myrelle
revision

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Yes. I was rolling my eyes at all those tender flashbacks of moments with Mary, showing how wonderful she was. Moments that we never saw until they decided to kill off the character. Sorry, show, it's too late to try with the character.

Also disliked the gooey sentimentality of the writing in this episode in general, and the way every emotional moment stretched out unbearably. For me sentimentality is trying to buy feelings without being willing to pay a fair price for them, and that's what I felt they were doing. My emotions are not so cheaply bought, and I am not sad that Mary is gone. I sincerely hope that they never bring her back.

This. So much.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Dean looks so beautiful when he’s desolate.  Jack had better watch out.

Indeed.

My favorite part of this one was the funeral pyre.

[ZennyKenny]

52 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I wouldn't mind seeing this as well. I just don't believe that the show will fully commit to it. Not with all the "poor Jack, it's not his fault" hedges they have erected around the story.

It would seem so bizarre to me though if this storyline for Jack ends with Dean and Sam welcoming him back with open arms and telling him, "It doesn't matter that you killed our mother! You didn't mean to! All that matters is that we're FAMILY!"

Yeah I feel the same way. They can't let their precious tender marshmallow boy who just also happens to be the most powerful being in the Universe **eyeroll** turn evil!

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, ZennyKenny said:

Yeah I feel the same way. They can't let their precious tender marshmallow boy who just also happens to be the most powerful being in the Universe **eyeroll** turn evil!

Maybe Chuck will come to take him on a trip to Disneyland with Auntie Amara.  Forever.  

[ZennyKenny]

48 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Oh this ain't over, Jack brought something back besides Mary's shell.  They're not dropping that hint, and don't follow up on it.

I really really REALLY hope so! Because what we got was so anti-climactic. 

[ZennyKenny]

39 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I SO! DNW this.

But I'd bet the ranch that it's what we're going to get from Dabb-not a spoiler, just sad spec based on everything that Dabb has given us already.

As for him going "dark", he's just not that to me or menacing or any such thing and I don't think he's ever going to be.

Dean is much, MUCH! darker to me in all of his righteous anger right now-and even while he knows that they all felt this coming.

At this point I would hate it if they welcomed him back. But if he's going to be in next season, they'll probably take the laziest, tropiest way out and have something happen to Jack that gives him amnesia where he doesn't remember killing Mary, and resets his personality to marshmallow mode. And the boys feel responsible for taking care of him.

I'd MUCH rather see him go fully unhinged, screaming at an imaginary Lucifer and going on a insanity-induced killing spree and needing to be put down or something like that. 

[Ninamags]

Forgot to mention that Mary didn’t earn her initials on that table. No way, no how. 

Another cheap attempt by the writers to justify her character deficiencies. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Ninamags

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Note to @AwesomO4000 - yes, they did it. They had Sam say Dean was right 2 years ago. But I think Sam, Dean, and Cas loved and still love Jack.   And Dean acknowledges this.  And that, IMO, made Sam’s choice to try and help Jack the right decision.  

Thanks for the warning. I'm out of town and the hotel doesn't have the CW on the cable choices, so I'll be watching when I get home.

As for it being the right decision anyway, I guess that depends. If it turns out that Dean has to put Jack down*** - not a spoiler, just a guessed potential direction based on Dean promising Jack he would take him out if he had to - it could be more like it would have been better if Jack had never been. Like Sam was willing to do in "The Song Remains the Same" (i.e. not existing or just existing for a moment wouldn't be so bad as having existed and having to be destroyed.) In which case it will seem to me like just another - this time extended - Sam was wrong set up. Again. Sam's misplaced sympathy will strike again, something the show's been mining since early on and started showing as a real problem since "Croatoan." Weirdly Sam doesn't seem to get to learn though... and when he does decide not to show sympathy... he still ends up wrong (example: Benny). Don't ask me... I still haven't made any sense of it. I jut know that it's likely going to happen, because it usually does.

*** And thinking about it, it maybe makes narrative sense... Jack will be Dean's Sam "done right." Whereas Dean couldn't kill Sam when he couldn't save him, this time Dean will kill Jack when he/they couldn't save him. Maybe that's where this is all going. Dean will fulfill John's directive - as well as his own - this time and save the world as a result. And Dean will once again clean up everyone's  - especially Sam's - mess and be the hero. Again.

And if that's what happens, I will sigh, because I've learned not to expect much more for Sam than that. If that's not what happens, I will pleasantly surprised, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Edited to add: I do so appreciate your optimism, SueB. I used to share it, but it's getting harder to do so. I just want Sam to get some kind of win at some point... a real one, not a backhanded one where he seems like he's getting set up for a win only to fail, or he's damned with faint praise.

Edited April 12, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Thanks for the warning. I'm out of town and the hotel doesn't have the CW on the cable choices, so I'll be watching when I get home.

As for it being the right decision anyway, I guess that depends. If it turns out that Dean has to put Jack down*** - not a spoiler, just a guessed potential direction based on Dean promising Jack he would take him out if he had to - it could be more like it would have been better if Jack had never been. Like Sam was willing to do in "The Song Remains the Same" (i.e. not existing or just existing for a moment wouldn't be so bad as having existed and having to be destroyed.) In which case it will seem to me like just another - this time extended - Sam was wrong set up. Again. Sam's misplaced sympathy will strike again, something the show's been mining since early on and started showing as a real problem since "Croatoan." Weirdly Sam doesn't seem to get to learn though... and when he does decide not to show sympathy... he still ends up wrong (example: Benny). Don't ask me... I still haven't made any sense of it. I jut know that it's likely going to happen, because it usually does.

*** And thinking about it, it maybe makes narrative sense... Jack will be Dean's Sam "done right." Whereas Dean couldn't kill Sam when he couldn't save him, this time Dean will kill Jack when he/they couldn't save him. Maybe that's where this is all going. Dean will fulfill John's directive - as well as his own - this time and save the world as a result. And Dean will once again clean up everyone's  - especially Sam's - mess and be the hero. Again.

And if that's what happens, I will sigh, because I've learned not to expect much more for Sam than that. If that's not what happens, I will pleasantly surprised, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Dean isn't being (and won't be) played as the hero. He is getting a thourough hate-wave right now and daring to hurt previous Nougat will make that ten times worse. 

After all, even new sainted Mary never hat anything good to say to him either.   

[Casseiopeia]

  They sure hit us over the head with Mary is DEAD, like Really Most Sincerely Dead, in a locked ward of heaven no one can enter, vaporized, no body, empty shell, not coming back....ever....no really not ever.

The June Cleaver retcon was sooo over the top complete with sappy violin music.  I suppose it was worth the waste of a precious episode to be done with Mary.  It was a mistake they have been trying to fix almost from the get.  Glad it's over.

[Casseiopeia]

Saw this posted elsewhere...it cracked me up

"Yes our Uber ultra alert world renowned hunters who are looking for both Jack and Mary completely overlook her backback, keys and cellphone sitting out on a table in plain site. That’s realistic."

You just can't make this stuff up

Edited April 12, 2019 by Casseiopeia

[catrox14]

I never liked Mary and for all the complaints about Mary being fridged in the pilot (I don't think she was) she sure seems to have been fridged again for Jack's story.

And it was so bad. They threw in  a bunch stupid scenes in flashbacks to try and retcon her being a shit mom and saying it's just so complicated. NO it's really not, show. Not in this world. 

And sorry, but her initials being in the table at the bunker is fucking BS.  I have so much else to gripe about but I need to gather my thoughts.  This episode actually pissed me off and I just don't care that she's dead. 

[juppschmitz]

2 hours ago, S Cook Productions said:

OmG, I expected a Pet Sematary too! I even said that aloud during the ep and totally thought that’s where they were going lol. 

People mightn't have known the difference between good!Mary and bad!Mary...

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I wouldn't mind seeing this as well. I just don't believe that the show will fully commit to it. Not with all the "poor Jack, it's not his fault" hedges they have erected around the story.

It would seem so bizarre to me though if this storyline for Jack ends with Dean and Sam welcoming him back with open arms and telling him, "It doesn't matter that you killed our mother! You didn't mean to! All that matters is that we're FAMILY!"

🙄

[7kstar]

For those that wanted a way to have cannon say that Mary was trying to be a good mother, for fanfiction, they now have cannon to help their cause.

I tried to watch and feel something...but I just couldn't get into it.  Not even Jensen got me to feel something because I kept thinking what was the point of this season?  What was the point of bringing Mary back and creating such a fail with Dean due to the BAD WRITING!  If they had wanted to, they could have given us a line here and there to make this last ep work.

Also how many times can you bring back a character just to kill them off for no reason...or at least a worthwhile reason?  I mean we have her death so Jack goes crazy.  

So was the secret planning table like:

Hey, we need Jack to go dark side.

Yes, we also need the brothers to grieve and get Dean angry enough to kill the big bad...

Oh, I know...it's never been done and well it will fit perfectly with the 300 ep...Let's Kill (drum roll as everyone will be so surprised)  Let's kill Mary! 

No one will see it coming.  After all, we can always bring her back when we need her again.  Perfect...let's do it!

I'm not angry.  just indifferent.  I still haven't watched last weeks ep...

[juppschmitz]

1 hour ago, ZennyKenny said:

At this point I would hate it if they welcomed him back. But if he's going to be in next season, they'll probably take the laziest, tropiest way out and have something happen to Jack that gives him amnesia where he doesn't remember killing Mary, and resets his personality to marshmallow mode. And the boys feel responsible for taking care of him.

I'd MUCH rather see him go fully unhinged, screaming at an imaginary Lucifer and going on a insanity-induced killing spree and needing to be put down or something like that. 

I'd rather not see him at all unless he's second fiddle to Dean and Sam.

[catrox14]

Can someone explain to me when Sam dumped Jack on Cas? Did I miss an episode??