S02.E05: Saints of Imperfection

[Bort]

Quote

Burnham and the crew navigate a dangerous alien landscape in a race against time to save Tilly's life, but Stamets is not at all prepared for what they find in the process. Section 31 is assigned to help track down Spock, much to Pike's dismay.

Airdate: Thursday, February 14, 2019

[starri]

Nhan is just pure competence.  That's a nice trait to have in a security chief.

[ottoDbusdriver]

So when did Georgiou find Spock's shuttle and take it over ?  Before or after the events of last week's encounter with the giant sphere  ?

I'm thinking after, but who knows for sure ?  And where did Spock go ?  Another ship ?

[starri]

You have to love that Michelle Yeoh can make something as simple as eating an apple menacing.  I do also like that despite everything, she still seems to care about Michael.  In her own twisted way, at least.

I think there's something wonderful in the Valentine's Day episode being in large part about two halves of a gay couple finding each other across universes.  And I guess we finally got confirmation that they're actually married, because Michael's VO used "widower" for Paul when talking about labels.

I also loved Pike's line to Leland about thinking he was fighting "alligators" on Cestus 3.

[DrScottie]

2 hours ago, starri said:

 I also loved Pike's line to Leland about thinking he was fighting "alligators" on Cestus 3.

Arena was a classic episode of TOS.  I remember the "alligator" er, Gorn saying "I grow weary of the chase!" or Slow down so I can kill you. Both William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy suffered hearing loss because of the makeshift cannons going off. 

Hugh is back! 🙂 That's awesome. What a great Valentine's Day show.

I wonder what will happen when Ash and Hugh meet again though. 

2 hours ago, starri said:

Nhan is just pure competence.  That's a nice trait to have in a security chief.

Absolutely. Much more level headed than Commander Landry who managed to get herself killed in both the regular and the mirror universe. 

Edited February 15, 2019 by DrScottie

[marinw]

Ash looks great with the longer hair and beard.

Welcome back Dr. Hugh! His resurrection seems convoluted even for this show, but I like the character so I’ll allow it.

Edited February 15, 2019 by marinw

[DrScottie]

3 minutes ago, marinw said:

 Welcome back Dr. Hugh! His resurrection seems convoluted even for tis show, but I like the character so I’ll allow it.

I figured that the last episode of the show would be Paul joining Hugh in the network to be together for eternity. That might still happen at the end anyway, bur I'm glad they brought him back earlier than that. 

[KimberStormer]

The people who make this show are absolutely incapable of respecting the deadlines that they write themselves.  "YOU HAVE FIVE SECONDS BEFORE TOTAL CATASTROPHIC FAILURE!" "ACKNOWLEDGED!  [fifteen-minute heartfelt discussion while doing absolutely nothing]"  This episode was totally ridiculous like the last and that's great IMO.  Finding Georgiou in the shuttle instead of Spock is definitely an upgrade.  All the (literal!) scenery chewing that Michelle Yeoh wants to do is alright with me.  It does bother me that everyone knows what Section 31 is, when the whole point of those episodes of DS9 was that Bashir and Sisko had no reason to believe they were real.

Happy to have my cinnamon roll Ash back around.  I enjoy how convolutedly the creators had to squirm to undo their Kill Your Gays baloney that never should have happened.  The half-sunk ship and the advancing wall of watery doom was a wonderful visual (the network in general looked great) no matter how puzzling from a "what exactly am I looking at" point of view.  Stamets is such a great dude.  I'm into it!

Michael's final speech about hoping the Invisible Hand will guide them well sure seemed like she was speaking in the voice of the original showrunners, talking about the people taking over.  Was that the last episode for them?  Will be interesting to see how things change.

[KimberStormer]

4 hours ago, starri said:

Nhan is just pure competence.  That's a nice trait to have in a security chief.

It is funny though, as someone noticed here last season, Discovery has only one security officer, period.  Nhan watches Tyler in the cafeteria, Nhan herds the crew...

[themadman]

All through this episode, I was literally screaming at my screen going, "Mofos, ain't nobody got time for your speeches and pontificating! Did you not hear the time constraints being constantly told to you?" So bloody infuriating!

[thuganomics85]

Between her chowing down on that apple and flat-out, legitimately hissing when Michael called her a snake, I was so loving Georgiou just hamming it up.  Michelle Yeoh was having the time of her life, here.  The eventual spin-off is going to be a blast!

I figured Culber was eventually going to be saved since Wilson Cruz was upgraded to the main credits, but I'm happy for him and Stamets.  But I definitely suspect this won't be a smooth transition.  I imagine he'll have some form of PTSD, especially with "Ash" back onboard as the liaison for Section 31.

I wonder how many first contacts would have gone smoother if Tilly had been there to teach the other alien species the art of the pinky swear!

I do love how Pike seems to know that a lot of stuff isn't adding up, but is willing to trust that Michael will tell him when it is the right time.

For all the time crunches that kept claiming they were under, they sure seemed to be a lot of unnecessary talking and whatnot.  Living life on the edge, aren't we, guys?!

Hey, Cornwall is back and single-handily gets Pike and Leland/Section 31 captain to stuff it and work together!

Nhan does seem pretty cool.  I would say I hope we get more of her, but I'm still hoping we get more of the bridge crew eventually.

[MissLucas]

Wow, I have no idea what I just watched but Michelle Yeoh was having the time of her life and I'm all for it. So, let's see:

• We got Hugh back (despite having had a body to prove he was dead - he just wasn't dead dead). All that was needed was an insane amount of tech- and biobabble. 'The mushrooms did it!'
• Now that the mycelial network is free of Hugh, I guess the spore-drive is back in action? I can only assume Jett Reno isn't please since she was nowhere to be seen. Can't blame her for deciding that pulsating alien chrysalises were not on her to-do list.
• The visuals of the Discovery trapped between worlds/universes were breathtaking.
• Tilly commenting on half the Discovery jumping into the network (btw. almost as cool as BSG's atmospheric jump): 'That's for me' was great, also great 'That's soldier for get behind me' and her explanation of weaponry categories to an unknown alien.
• At least we're rid of the man-bun.
• Of course the Emperor's first instinct on a new assignment is getting all the dirt on her supposed CO, he!
• Pike's dry-pan humor is really endearing the character to me. And he seems to have good instincts - his reaction to the Admiral's suggestion of swapping liaisons was hilarious.
• And we're still not any closer to seeing Spock.
• I swear I started imagining Burnham's closing lines in Vanessa Redgrave's voice.

[cali1981]

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Between her chowing down on that apple and flat-out, legitimately hissing when Michael called her a snake, I was so loving Georgiou just hamming it up.  Michelle Yeoh was having the time of her life, here.  The eventual spin-off is going to be a blast!

Agreed! Michelle as Capt/Emperor Georgiou has been great.  The aura of danger and malice that surrounds her is palpable and her sarcasm is a big plus in my book. The deep eye shadow that she's using gives her face a certain look that really emphasizes that aura.  As starri noted, Michelle can make the simple act of biting an apple look malevolent.  Her scenes with Sonequa were up there with Sonequa's scenes with Doug Jones.  I loved the Admiral's talk with Leland and Pike, in effect telling the boys to put their manhood back in their pants and get the job done. Jane Brook nailed it.  Alan Van Sprang, who plays Leland, looked vaguely familiar.  I just watched the four season run of The Tudors on Netflix and Van Sprang had a pretty juicy role as Sir Francis Bryan, envoy, fixer and assassin for King Henry.  He's a very good actor. I'm finding this Section 31 plot thread to be very interesting and dig the black and silver Starfleet badge. Bet that will be collector's item for Trek fans.

[CarpeFelis]

9 hours ago, cali1981 said:

 Alan Van Sprang, who plays Leland, looked vaguely familiar.  I just watched the four season run of The Tudors on Netflix and Van Sprang had a pretty juicy role as Sir Francis Bryan, envoy, fixer and assassin for King Henry.  He's a very good actor. 

He was a hoot as King Henry on Reign, chewing the scenery with Megan Follows’ Catherine de Medici.

[SourK]

I don't know which I'd rather believe: that Discovery made up magic on the spur of the moment to bring back Hugh because they got dragged for killing him off, or they actually did have that super special plan they claimed to have... and this was it.

I also feel like Tilly didn't know the spore alien long enough to be sad that she'll never get to see it again. And also, I get that Michael is the main character, but why does she always have to be the most upset about anything that happens? I didn't really need her slo-mo run to find out Tilly was in the Upsidedown. It's weird because she's technically not acting dramatic and self-centered, but the way the show focuses on her reactions all the time and tries to build drama around them makes me feel like she is.

22 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

Finding Georgiou in the shuttle instead of Spock is definitely an upgrade. 

This. I had zero expectation that Spock would be in the shuttle -- I thought it would actually turn out to be Mudd or something -- but I love Michelle Yeoh, and I love her in this role, specifically, so I'm good with it. I'd actually rather have her around than most of the main characters.

[Milaxx]

11 hours ago, cali1981 said:

Agreed! Michelle as Capt/Emperor Georgiou has been great.  The aura of danger and malice that surrounds her is palpable and her sarcasm is a big plus in my book. The deep eye shadow that she's using gives her face a certain look that really emphasizes that aura.  As starri noted, Michelle can make the simple act of biting an apple look malevolent.  Her scenes with Sonequa were up there with Sonequa's scenes with Doug Jones.  I loved the Admiral's talk with Leland and Pike, in effect telling the boys to put their manhood back in their pants and get the job done. Jane Brook nailed it.  Alan Van Sprang, who plays Leland, looked vaguely familiar.  I just watched the four season run of The Tudors on Netflix and Van Sprang had a pretty juicy role as Sir Francis Bryan, envoy, fixer and assassin for King Henry.  He's a very good actor. I'm finding this Section 31 plot thread to be very interesting and dig the black and silver Starfleet badge. Bet that will be collector's item for Trek fans.

Alan Sprang is very good at evil guy and chewing the scenery. I’m just having a hard time not seeing Valentine from Shadowhunters. 

[statsgirl]

I loved Cornwall showing up and telling Pike and Leland to put it back in their pants.

Michelle Yeoh can show up and chew the scenery any time she wants.  I liked how we're never quite sure which side she's on, other than her own.

The one thing I didn't understand is why May didn't jump at the chance to get rid of "the monster" that was killing them. but instead got sad that she wouldn't be able to communicate with Tilly any more since the whole point of getting Tilly there was to save them. Okay, I also didn't understand why she didn't tell her species to stop attacking the ship so that they would have more time to help her.

Cestus 3, where the settlers play baseball...

[Miles]

How come these writers don't understand the fundamental basics of writing? If you want to pull something like "Tilly and this fungus are now soulmates", you've got to set it up and earn it.

What we actually got was both of them being at odds with each other throughout most of their inderactions and only a begrudging understanding, that is until we got dropped that bit of information via "tell don't show" onto our heads. I mean seriously?

On 2/15/2019 at 6:36 AM, KimberStormer said:

The people who make this show are absolutely incapable of respecting the deadlines that they write themselves.  "YOU HAVE FIVE SECONDS BEFORE TOTAL CATASTROPHIC FAILURE!" "ACKNOWLEDGED!  [fifteen-minute heartfelt discussion while doing absolutely nothing]"

I was rolling my eyes so hard at that part. Like, can you get out of there, and discuss the philosophical implications later, maybe?

On 2/15/2019 at 10:47 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Between her chowing down on that apple and flat-out, legitimately hissing when Michael called her a snake, I was so loving Georgiou just hamming it up.  Michelle Yeoh was having the time of her life, here.  The eventual spin-off is going to be a blast!

I do love her and her Georgiou as well, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. STD isn't exactly the subscriber draw CBS had hoped for. I don't thin that spinoff will happen anymore.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Miles

[Joimiaroxeu]

I think this episode nodded a bit toward The Expanse, though perhaps not deliberately.

This is probably the first ST episode where I got teary-eyed. So happy for Stamets.

Quote

Happy to have my cinnamon roll Ash back around .

You might want to step away from my tiramisu Ash.

[marceline]

I always knew Culber would come back but I was always afraid of how it would happen. This worked for me. 

It should be interesting when Culber and Tyler see each other again.

[MissLucas]

2 minutes ago, marceline said:

I always knew Culber would come back but I was always afraid of how it would happen. This worked for me. 

It should be interesting when Culber and Tyler see each other again.

I wonder how that will play out and hope for a surprising twist. Maybe once they get over the whole 'I killed you/You killed me'-thing they could bond over their weird experiences and PTSD. They both died and are now within bodies that are not really theirs (oversimplifying here). That could make for an interesting - and to the rest of the crew infuriating - buddy dynamic.

[Sandman]

On 2/15/2019 at 4:31 AM, themadman said:

"Mofos, ain't nobody got time for your speeches and pontificating!

You can all go ahead and just assume I'm going to be yelling this verbatim at my television every Thursday from now on.

[Starchild]

Some personal observations:

• A lame way of bringing back a character that never should have been killed off, but he's back and I'll take it
• I liked Georgiu Prime; the mirror version is too over-the-top. The emperor can go anytime
• Do we really need these monologues? What value are they really adding?
• I can understand how Section 31 could become what everyone thought was an urban legend after nearly a century, but right now they seem to be a pretty open secret. Pike knows all about them. Weird that Kirk never mentioned them.

[SourK]

7 minutes ago, Starchild said:

• Do we really need these monologues? What value are they really adding?

This reminds me that Pike's speech about why they were saving Tilly was probably my least favourite speech so far. It's hard to explain but I feel like, if what he was saying was true, then probably nobody on the crew doubted that they were going to save Tilly until he gave a big speech about how they were great for saving Tilly. Like, if it's such an obvious thing and it's what Starfleet stands for and nobody gets left behind... why do you need to lecture everyone about it like that?

In other news, as the weeks go on, I kind of hate Pike and I think this would have been a more interesting show if Saru had ended up captain for a while.

[Starchild]

I would have loved Saru as captain. Maybe Pike will leave once this whole Spock-tease is resolved and Saru will show us all how awesome an evolved Kelpian can be.

[ottoDbusdriver]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

Some personal observations:

• A lame way of bringing back a character that never should have been killed off, but he's back and I'll take it
• I liked Georgiu Prime; the mirror version is too over-the-top. The emperor can go anytime
• Do we really need these monologues? What value are they really adding?
• I can understand how Section 31 could become what everyone thought was an urban legend after nearly a century, but right now they seem to be a pretty open secret. Pike knows all about them. Weird that Kirk never mentioned them.

Precisely. They even have their own Section 31 pin, which everyone seems to recognize.  And that pin is in the intro now.

[paigow]

Section 31 learned from S.H.I.E.L.D. how to be a covert black ops team with a logo put on everything they own....

[DavidJSnyder]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

Section 31 learned from S.H.I.E.L.D. how to be a covert black ops team with a logo put on everything they own....

[Lebanna]

5 hours ago, paigow said:

Section 31 learned from S.H.I.E.L.D. how to be a covert black ops team with a logo put on everything they own....

See also: Torchwood. Top secret organizations with loudly branded clothing and vehicles are surprisingly common.

I will say that, like the Department of Temporal Investigations, Section 31 has always been completely lousy at keeping their secret... well, secret. How long did it take for the DS9 guys to find out everything about them? About ten minutes.

But that’s pretty normal. I mean, practically every country on Earth has had a ‘secret’ police at one time or another in the last 100 years - including right now - and generally we know it exists and what it is called and that part is never secret. I mean, just close to home, MI5/6, FBI/CIA... we know they exist, we don’t always know what they do. We know sometimes they do terrible things in our names, but we just accept it.

We assume, as Cornwell says, that they are keeping us safe and helping to keep the country together, and that matters more than the odd piece of worrying news about other operations that let’s just say, didn’t go so well.

So it would actually make more sense for them to be like that - the only reason they were supposed to be a total unknown on DS9 was that the writers had to explain to us why we hadn’t ever heard about 31 before - without causing anger and making us feel like our heroes had been lying to us by omission all these years.

Edited February 17, 2019 by Lebanna

[xaxat]

On 2/14/2019 at 9:49 PM, starri said:

I also loved Pike's line to Leland about thinking he was fighting "alligators" on Cestus 3.

I totally missed the reference. Thanks.

On 2/15/2019 at 4:31 AM, themadman said:

All through this episode, I was literally screaming at my screen going, "Mofos, ain't nobody got time for your speeches and pontificating! Did you not hear the time constraints being constantly told to you?" So bloody infuriating!

Not only that, Burnham was doing it in slow motion for the intro and conclusion. 

[LittleIggy]

On 2/15/2019 at 4:31 AM, themadman said:

All through this episode, I was literally screaming at my screen going, "Mofos, ain't nobody got time for your speeches and pontificating! Did you not hear the time constraints being constantly told to you?" So bloody infuriating!

Thank you! I was doing the same. 😆

Love Michelle Yeoh. She is awesome and hot! I’m a straight woman, but Georgiou would have me switching teams. 😏

Edited February 18, 2019 by LittleIggy

[KimberStormer]

10 hours ago, Lebanna said:

 How long did it take for the DS9 guys to find out everything about them? About ten minutes.

So it would actually make more sense for them to be like that - the only reason they were supposed to be a total unknown on DS9 was that the writers had to explain to us why we hadn’t ever heard about 31 before - without causing anger and making us feel like our heroes had been lying to us by omission all these years.

I haven't seen the episodes in a few years but this is not my recollection.  I remember the question of "Is Section 31 real"?  being kind of the whole point of their episodes, at least up to a point.  It was a sort of epistemological/metaphysical question because of the unknowability of those secret orgs -- we know there is a CIA (though I cannot agree that all of us just accept them) but there are people who are not officially employed by them, and nobody can really know if they are actually employed by them or not, unless you could trace their pay back to its origins.  But in the Federation nobody gets paid so how can you know?  And what would be the difference between an actual group of disavowed spies and a bunch of people who just think they are?  It's a sort of Philip K Dick kind of question.  In my memory, anyway.

[Clanstarling]

On 2/15/2019 at 9:24 PM, statsgirl said:

 Okay, I also didn't understand why she didn't tell her species to stop attacking the ship so that they would have more time to help her.

I think she did, they just didn't listen to her.

16 hours ago, DavidJSnyder said:

Beat me to it. 🙂

On 2/16/2019 at 7:13 PM, Starchild said:

• Do we really need these monologues? What value are they really adding?

I'm pretty tired of Burnham's voice overs. I agree they don't add much.

That being said, I enjoyed the episode (except for the dawdling under deadline). And am very glad Hugh is back, for the basic reason that in the first season he's one of the characters who stood out for me, along with Saru. (fun trivia - the actors who play Hugh and Stamets (Cruz and Rapp) were both in 13 Reasons Why, though Rapp was only on one episode)

Edited February 18, 2019 by Clanstarling

[Pestilentia]

So I'm really glad Hugh is back despite that horrid Neanderthal look he had going on while his spirit was manifesting as the Mycelial monster.

But I am stupid levels of hung up about where the network got his DNA to replicate him. They made a huge point of needing extra human DNA which they found in the cocoon (why couldn't they have just nabbed some from, I don't know- one of the humans on the other side) but no source of Hugh DNA.

If he was most sincerely dead presumably his body was disposed in whatever manner they utilize in space. It just bugs me because usually they toss me a bone so I can wank this sort of thing. 

Hopefully I have misunderstood and someone can correct me else I just have to make the leap and be happy he's back.  

Agree that I am loving how Pike operates- a couple of times there he was not entirely sure what was going on but trusted his officers enough to proceed with what they asked for anyway, and that's a great commander. 

Don't quite know why Ash was brought back just to have to sit around feeling useless but also agree that the hair looks good on him.

[paigow]

On 2/14/2019 at 9:49 PM, starri said:

I also loved Pike's line to Leland about thinking he was fighting "alligators" on Cestus 3.

Kirk was the first human to see a Gorn in the Prime Universe... The Federation knew nothing concrete about any other territorial claims in that region of space... So now we have to believe that Section 31 withheld / redacted critical information from the colonists..... just like Burke, Carter J.

[MissLucas]

9 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

But I am stupid levels of hung up about where the network got his DNA to replicate him. They made a huge point of needing extra human DNA which they found in the cocoon (why couldn't they have just nabbed some from, I don't know- one of the humans on the other side) but no source of Hugh DNA.

I think they just needed human DNA - any old bit would do since they had Hugh's essence (or whatever) stored on their side. Well that and a bit of Handwavium.

I feel your pain - I went through the same during the Voq/Tyler discussions - ultimately I just gave in and accepted that the pretty lives on. I guess that's the way to go here too.

[DavidJSnyder]

I found it distracting that Pike and Georgiou are supposed to be Academy contemporaries even though Yeoh is about ten years older than Mount ( who is already older than Jeffrey Hunter was in The Cage.) I liked their interactions, but I think a different prior relationship could have been established.

[Lazlo]

On 2/16/2019 at 3:55 AM, SourK said:

And also, I get that Michael is the main character, but why does she always have to be the most upset about anything that happens? I didn't really need her slo-mo run to find out Tilly was in the Upsidedown. It's weird because she's technically not acting dramatic and self-centered, but the way the show focuses on her reactions all the time and tries to build drama around them makes me feel like she is.

I know what you mean. I can easily believe Michael and Tilly are friends but from what we've seen recently Tilly actually seems closer to Saru and Stamets. Having Michael be so devastated didn't really feel earned. I had the same issue with the show trying to push the idea of Michael and Saru as BFFs last week - again there is a connection but it felt like the show forcing something more because Michael is our view point character.

I enjoyed this story but I'm beginning to worry the writers have forgotten that the Emperor (entertaining and charismatic though she is) is essentially Space Hitler. Deep Space Nine had a very similar problem with Gul Dukat were because the actor/character was so much fun the creators and audience lost sight of what a monster he was and eventually had to do a messy course correction.

[shrewd.buddha]

On 2/15/2019 at 4:31 AM, themadman said:

"Mofos, ain't nobody got time for your speeches and pontificating! Did you not hear the time constraints being constantly told to you?"

I actually expected someone to be killed on Discovery ... and everyone would be okay with having saved Tilly but losing a dozen or so red-shirts. 

On 2/18/2019 at 9:38 AM, Clanstarling said:

I'm pretty tired of Burnham's voice overs.

The monologue-ing - by everyone - in this episode was very annoying. It makes them all sound like pretentious wannabe philosophers. 

On 2/17/2019 at 12:46 PM, paigow said:

Section 31 learned from S.H.I.E.L.D. how to be a covert black ops team with a logo put on everything they own....

Ash was just walking around in his stylish black outfit and black badge for everyone to see. 

On 2/14/2019 at 10:31 PM, marinw said:

Welcome back Dr. Hugh! His resurrection seems convoluted even for this show, but I like the character so I’ll allow it.

Hugh was recreated from DNA scratch, so his scars are gone  ... but he somehow retains his memories? Do the writers not understand how memories are created? 
And how did the mycelial transporter pod manage to give Hugh such a nice haircut? 

Edited September 17, 2019 by shrewd.buddha

[TheGourmez]

On 9/16/2019 at 6:36 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

And how did the mycelial transporter pod manage to give Hugh such a nice haircut? 

That was my biggest question ! 😁

[John Potts]

Amazing how many explosive Nebulae there are in space!

"The innocent don't run"? The cry of the fascist through the ages (and even in Trek - see The Drumhead). Loved that Philippa admitted she wasn't innocent though!

Disappointed that Michael didn't say "Fall in" and have May go "I know what that means!"

Loved Cartwright going "Cut the manly bullshit!"

On 2/15/2019 at 2:13 AM, starri said:

Nhan is just pure competence.  That's a nice trait to have in a security chief.

Can't imagine how he got through Starfleet rigorous screening process. Doesn't he know Security are there purely as canon fodder?

On 2/15/2019 at 5:36 AM, KimberStormer said:

The people who make this show are absolutely incapable of respecting the deadlines that they write themselves.  "YOU HAVE FIVE SECONDS BEFORE TOTAL CATASTROPHIC FAILURE!" "ACKNOWLEDGED! 

Just once, I'd love it if they learn they have "Only seven hours to save the ship/world/universe!" - and for them to do it in three.

On 2/17/2019 at 10:29 PM, Lebanna said:

Torchwood. Top secret organizations with loudly branded clothing and vehicles are surprisingly common.

"Bloody Torchwood!"

[Idiotboy]

Quote

Wow, I have no idea what I just watched but Michelle Yeoh was having the time of her life and I'm all for it.

This. Michelle Yeoh can wield an apple like a WMD. I will enter a serious slough of despond if that Section 31 spinoff doesn't happen. Basically, now that Lorca is killed off, Georgiou's too-brief appearances are what's keeping me watching STD, although Saru, Stamets and NotDead! Hugh are a big help. Note that I didn't mention Burnham. Does anyone?

While I don't watch science fiction for the FX, those on Discovery are way better than average (and very imaginative). How is Strange New Worlds not going to look like a huge step backwards?

Lastly, why are Stamets and Pike the only ones with Voq issues? He killed the beloved Dr. Culber in cold blood, might still be half-Klingon and yet everybody's pretty chill about having him around (this started in S1:E14 and has bugged ever since).

[Paloma]

Coming to this show very late, my husband and I have mixed feelings about the series in general and this season (so far) specifically. We are both long-time ST fans (mostly of the original series and movies, TNG, Voyager, and the new movies), though we don't remember or recognize all the references to previous series and characters. We're finding STD enough fun to binge and we like the acting, the special effects, and the ethical dilemmas. BUT we often feel that the show is jumping the shark, or close to it. As much as I like the characters that have "died" or almost died, it's hard to care if you know that the writers will save them at the last moment or find some hard-to-believe reason for bringing them back to life (or in the case of Captain Georgiou, substituting her mirror version). It just feels like a cheat, a way to manipulate the audience emotionally.

We could also make a drinking game out of all the times they refer to Spock and set up situations in which we should expect to see him, but then pull the rug out from under us and give some lame reason why he is not there. Again, it feels like a cheat, and after doing it so many times it's become a joke. 

Finally, I will offer the unpopular opinion that Tilly is really annoying, and I find it hard to believe that she would be accepted into command training with her over-the-top nervous personality. And I say that as someone who sometimes acts like her in real life, but I hate it and am constantly telling myself to shut up when I blather on. So it's hard to watch someone like that on the screen.

[Affogato]

On 1/13/2023 at 11:12 PM, Paloma said:

Coming to this show very late, my husband and I have mixed feelings about the series in general and this season (so far) specifically. We are both long-time ST fans (mostly of the original series and movies, TNG, Voyager, and the new movies), though we don't remember or recognize all the references to previous series and characters. We're finding STD enough fun to binge and we like the acting, the special effects, and the ethical dilemmas. BUT we often feel that the show is jumping the shark, or close to it. As much as I like the characters that have "died" or almost died, it's hard to care if you know that the writers will save them at the last moment or find some hard-to-believe reason for bringing them back to life (or in the case of Captain Georgiou, substituting her mirror version). It just feels like a cheat, a way to manipulate the audience emotionally.

We could also make a drinking game out of all the times they refer to Spock and set up situations in which we should expect to see him, but then pull the rug out from under us and give some lame reason why he is not there. Again, it feels like a cheat, and after doing it so many times it's become a joke. 

Finally, I will offer the unpopular opinion that Tilly is really annoying, and I find it hard to believe that she would be accepted into command training with her over-the-top nervous personality. And I say that as someone who sometimes acts like her in real life, but I hate it and am constantly telling myself to shut up when I blather on. So it's hard to watch someone like that on the screen.

I recently rewatched the first season, hadn't since the first time it came out. It seemed to me that there was a lot of character exploration underneath all of this. The Spock teases, not so far about Spock, so much as they are ways to learn about Amanda and Michael and Sarek, and to a lesser extent, Pike. Anyway, I think that the 'spock teases' are seen from Michael's perspective, and she is also frustrated.

I remember my father having a hard time watching Dick Van Dyke, possibly for a similar reason. I think I can see Tilly being a captain, though, maybe not of a vessel that is likely to go to war. She would be loved by her crew, I think.