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S09.E09: Adaptation

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55 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I needed context clues to figure out who "Adam" and "Eric" are, and I just take you at your word that those are their names. That's how many characters are on this show that make no impact on me.

Seriously.  Right about the time I actually started to remember Eric's name, he was killed off, which I think probably says a lot more about the craptastic character development on this show than my memory.  

I think that's why season 2 (the farm season) was my favorite, lots of great fleshing out of the characters and getting to know them and what made them tick.  Of course, except for Daryl and Carol, all of those characters are gone.  

For the past couple of seasons, I've not even bothered to try to remember most of the new characters' names because I really could not care less if they're killed off.  I think the only new character I've come close to liking is Siddiq, and he gets so little air time I can't warm up to him, either.  

Like a few posters above, I couldn't help but notice that Michonne has been given the Crown of Grunting Glory.  

I finally was able to understand Dirty Daryl's grunts and mumbles without the use of closed captioning, and now I'm probably going to have to to back to using it to decipher Michonne's dialogue.  

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43 minutes ago, Imnotmaggie said:

Ugh.. i hate that my favorite show has turned into this mess. I have been a HUGE lover of this show since the beginning.  I'll admit that I struggled through seasons 6, 7, and 8, but I  kept with it. But... dear lord.. this mess?... Its time to give up.  I understand that the showrunners and writers were trying to be "cool" and "edgy" by killing off main characters. Unfortunately,  the only thing that they accomplished for me was to make  the show less engaging every time we lost a character that I was emotionally invested in.

I only care about 1/10th of the characters that are still remaining.  Its just not worth my time anymore.  

I don't think the problem was losing the main characters.  I think the problem was that the writers didn't really attempt to build up any of the newer characters to replace the main characters until they started losing the main characters.

I think they could have done a lot with Jesus.  A wasted character that could have been built up as someone special if they had only reduced all of the time spent on Nagen's speeches.  That also would have helped reduced that levels of hatred that Nagen receives.   Sure, people would still be pissed that Nagen killed Abraham and Glenn.  I just think that more people were pissed that Nagen had a case of the "can't shut the hell ups". 

As far as Nagen episodes go, this episode was much more watchable than most.  That is, except for the dogs getting eaten.

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2 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I don't think the problem was losing the main characters.  I think the problem was that the writers didn't really attempt to build up any of the newer characters to replace the main characters until they started losing the main characters.

I think they could have done a lot with Jesus.  A wasted character that could have been built up as someone special if they had only reduced all of the time spent on Nagen's speeches.  That also would have helped reduced that levels of hatred that Nagen receives.   Sure, people would still be pissed that Nagen killed Abraham and Glenn.  I just think that more people were pissed that Nagen had a case of the "can't shut the hell ups". 

As far as Nagen episodes go, this episode was much more watchable than most.  That is, except for the dogs getting eaten.

Bingo!  

And conversely, they then shove a character like Neil into a scene, kill him off, and apparently we're supposed to have some sort of reaction to his tragic demise.

Instead I think most of the viewers were sitting there like I was, saying "Who the fuck is Neil???"  

That being said, I think so far Kang is doing pretty well with the shitshow she was given to salvage.  I'm hoping she's still in the process of fixing what Gimple/AMC broke.  

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You know — The Whisperers. Now how does that work? Do you put on the same face-mask every morning, or do you skin a new one every day? And do you mingle with the same herd? Or do you pick a new herd every day? Maybe there's new and better dynamic in the herd today as opposed to the one yesterday. Do you name the herds? How about the people in the herds? Do you try to be buddies with other herd members? Do you exchange vacation pics? And a practical question — What do you do when you have to pee??? How do you extract yourself (pardon the pun) from the herd to do that? Maybe the entire herd goes to the same tree and pees in unison. Nothing says "herd" like peeing together. Then, at the end of the day, do you clock out and leave the herd? Do you go home and pop some popcorn? This is the kind of stuff TPTB needs to give us. 

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I found it hilarious that Negan was able to find another fucking leather jacket and it fit him just right.

Rosita does look beautiful with the longer hair.  I guess I wasn't paying enough attention that she was pregnant.  Who is the baby daddy?  

Michonne and that hot mess that's on her head.  I wish she'd just get a haircut.   

Also, I really didn't care that the dogs got eaten.  It's eat or be eaten, and they lost.

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1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

I needed context clues to figure out who "Adam" and "Eric" are, and I just take you at your word that those are their names.

Same. I have no idea who they are.

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

I was watching Supernatural and all I saw was Negan.

I saw a preview of the horrid movie "Rampage" starring the greatest actor of our time, Dwayne Johnson, and JDM is doing his Negan schtick there too. I think he has become his character and is unable to turn it off.

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18 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I found it hilarious that Negan was able to find another fucking leather jacket and it fit him just right.

Rosita does look beautiful with the longer hair.  I guess I wasn't paying enough attention that she was pregnant.  Who is the baby daddy?  

Michonne and that hot mess that's on her head.  I wish she'd just get a haircut.   

Also, I really didn't care that the dogs got eaten.  It's eat or be eaten, and they lost.

Baby's daddy is apparently Siddiq, conceived in a pre-Gabriel carnal escapade.

I actually was rolling my eyes and laughing during the scene with the dogs.

Most well-fed, well-groomed, fresh-from-herding "wild" dogs I've seen on this show.

At least the pack of wild dogs that the crew shot and grilled a few seasons ago looked like savage mongrels.  

These three last night looked extremely...well cared for.  

Edited by Persnickety1
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54 minutes ago, Persnickety1 said:

Instead I think most of the viewers were sitting there like I was, saying "Who the fuck is Neil???"  

Aww, you have to bring up Neil, just when I was finally coming to grips with his death, whoever the fuck he was.

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12 minutes ago, Persnickety1 said:

Baby's daddy is apparently Siddiq, conceived in a pre-Gabriel carnal escapade.

Ok, so is she with Gabriel now?  I was washing dishes and missed some of this stuff.

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18 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Ok, so is she with Gabriel now?  I was washing dishes and missed some of this stuff.

Apparently so.

For the record, washing the dishes was probably more entertaining than a few segments of tonight's episode.  

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It is amazing that after all that time Luke is still unable to defend himself against walkers, and is still alive. Has his group been carrying him all around?

And feeding him well, apparently. Seriously, how is anyone overweight at this point? What the hell are they eating to stay overweight 10 years into the ZA? Did they find a stash of Hostess Twinkies somewhere? Contrary to urban legend, those do go bad. But even if they're living off pre-packaged junk food, they're wandering around aimlessly and dropping like flies until there's only four left in their group. That's not exactly the kind of sedentary lifestyle that leads to weight issues. 

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Luke is the music teacher played by Dan Fogler who came in with the latest group of survivors.  I like the actor a lot and think he's giving it all he's got to try to do something with the role, but yeah he looks a little ... rotund to have been on the run this far into the ZA.

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4 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Luke is the music teacher played by Dan Fogler who came in with the latest group of survivors. 

Thank you. Now I know who he is. And yeah, walking around 10 years post-apocalypse with a big jelly-belly would likely have people all around cornering him and asking suspiciously, "How do you do that?"

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6 hours ago, Jel said:

Also, their festering, decrepit, advanced periodontal diseased teeth would barely be able to stay in their mouths and would definitely come out with one bite, and that would be the end of that. There should be way more toothless walkers at this point and way more walkers who can't really muster up the energy to get up. I get that it's horror and not science fiction, but I feel there needs to be at least some logic involved in this stuff.

All the flesh would be long since rotted off by now. We saw the one that grabbed Negan's belt and just by moving forward he ripped the walker in half since they are so fragile, yet one of them can kill a pack of big, well-fed healthy dogs. How did the dogs stay so healthy? Who knows. Dogs will eat rotted meat, but living on a diet of decayed flesh of walkers would be very bad for them and they'd be suffering all kinds of diseases, parasites and bacterial infections. Ugh. I guess it all falls under the usual category of some genius saying, "Wouldn't it be cool if..."

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22 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Luke is the music teacher played by Dan Fogler who came in with the latest group of survivors.  I like the actor a lot and think he's giving it all he's got to try to do something with the role, but yeah he looks a little ... rotund to have been on the run this far into the ZA.

Ok, thanks.  I had never seen him before early yesterday when I saw him in Scenic Route.  He was really good in that.

Alas, I think the walkers will love dining on him.  

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4 hours ago, sarthaz said:

I needed context clues to figure out who "Adam" and "Eric" are, and I just take you at your word that those are their names. That's how many characters are on this show that make no impact on me.

Methinks “Adam” = Aaron.  Eric was Aaron’s partner, who died in the assault on the Sanctuary last season.

2 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Ok, so is [Rosita] with Gabriel now?  I was washing dishes and missed some of this stuff.

Rosita and Gabriel being a couple was referenced in the first half of the season; not much more than a sentence fragment’s worth of mention in this episode.

Edited by Nashville · Reason: Eric expansion
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For all that is holy can they please devise some subplot to rescue Carol and Michonne from those atrocious wigs?

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39 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Methinks “Adam” = Aaron.  Eric was Aaron’s partner, who died in the assault on the Sanctuary last season.

Rosita and Gabriel being a couple was referenced in the first half of the season; not much more than a sentence fragment’s worth of mention in this episode.

LOL, you're right.  I think I'm the one who called him "Adam" earlier in this thread.  

I guess that shows how interchangeable/irrelevant some of these characters are to the show.  

I'm waiting to see the fallout from Gabriel overhearing Rosita talking about being pregnant.  

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1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Luke is the music teacher played by Dan Fogler who came in with the latest group of survivors.  I like the actor a lot and think he's giving it all he's got to try to do something with the role, but yeah he looks a little ... rotund to have been on the run this far into the ZA.

Good thing he avoided Terminus.  He would have been a much bigger meal than Rick and his pals.

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37 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Methinks “Adam” = Aaron.  Eric was Aaron’s partner, who died in the assault on the Sanctuary last season.

I believe that is correct, if you're referring to the person who finished off Jesus, although keeping names straight with this revolving door of secondary and new characters is difficult. Speaking of Aaron, he has an actual metal hand with fingers and knuckles on the end of his metal arm. Who was capable of fashioning that? (please don't say Eugene)Does the hand work, or is it just aesthetic? Excuse my ignorance.

So I just tried doing something I haven't done in ages with this show, and that's rewatch the ep since I obviously missed a lot. I just started and thought, wait - what? Here's Negan wandering around and it's night. My memory is horrible but I'm pretty sure when he saw him get out of jail last season it was daylight. He's eating the tomato and it's night. Judith catches him on the fence and it's daylight again. We're supposed to think that someone who escaped jail would meander around all day and all night and into the next day at the location of his incarceration before even thinking of leaving and not a soul, other than that brat, saw him? He goes into Michonne's house (she seems to see no reason to lock a door with two small children there) and into the kid's room and still is undetected? Wow, is all I can say.

Everything I've read and heard about escaped prisoners indicates that the first thing they do is get away as far as fast as they can.

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3 hours ago, Persnickety1 said:

Instead I think most of the viewers were sitting there like I was, saying "Who the fuck is Neil???"  

Wasn't Neil the dude that was trying to protect the horses from the walkers on the bridge way back when Rick was still on the show?

I think Neil was the horseshoe making guy from Hilltop.

I liked him a lot.  Anyone who is willing to put their life on the line to protect animals and dies in the process is someone that I am going to miss.

Edited by icemiser69
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Just now, icemiser69 said:

Wasn't Neil the dude that was trying to protect the horses from the walkers on the bridge way back when Rick was still on the show?

Nope. That was someone else,  who was I think talking about his father or Henry's father or something like that. Neil was sitting in the car with Maggie when some Savior stopped them on the road and "Oh, no!" they shot Neil! Oh shit. 

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6 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Wasn't Neil the dude that was trying to protect the horses from the walkers on the bridge way back when Rick was still on the show?

That was Ken, son of Brett Butler's character, Tammy.  He was in just that one episode to protect the horses and then died.  We joked at the time that he was the Neil of season 9.

Neil was some random background character who was sitting in the passenger seat next to Maggie when one of the Savior bigwigs shot him in the head after they broke out of the Sanctuary.  Maggie immediately began caterwauling that "they shot Neil!" and making her revenge in threatening to kill other Savior prisoners all about justice for Neil.  Except that I don't think we'd ever heard Neil speak and didn't know anything about him.

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I find it a little humorous that the only two people that Negan actually seems to like in the ZA are two kids. He's shown more respect in his weird Negan way to Carl and Judith than to anyone. 

He's so cartoony, I find it hard to be really disgusted by him.  Yes, he did horrible things to people, but the writing was so over the top that I just never have taken him too seriously. He wasn't a good villain. They really blew it with him, and the Saviors. That whole "I am Negan thing" and his asshole lieutenants. They were all so unlikeable, and not in a good villainy way. 

I feel like the show wasted a lot of time on this.

The Whisperers appearing seemingly out of nowhere and using the arrows as bait -- now that was good and creepy. So much better than that stupid whistling. 

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9 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I don't like watching any animal violence.  I am tired of it.

Same (I don't even like watching the dinosaur feeding scenes in Jurassic Park). That's why I am glad whatever happened was off screen.  I would have been more upset if Negan fed Dog or a domesticated dog to a Walker but these dogs just tried to rip him apart, it's kill or be killed. I already spend enough of this show worried about the horses and now worried about Dog.

On the topic of dogs, IMHO it's cool that the doggie actors look healthy and well fed. I don't need to see an emaciated dogs, or want them to starve a dog for realism.

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2 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

or want them to starve a dog for realism.

Of course no one would starve animals for realism (unlike human actors who do that to themselves. Looking at you, JDM) but if they can't make something look even vaguely realistic, don't include it. The dog scene was an utterly pointless time filler, as so many scenes are here.  Historically, animals are included in this series only to die horrible deaths, pronto. I'm hoping they don't do this to Daryl's Dog, but I'm not counting on him surviving. I guess I shouldn't bother saying that at this point there would be no purebred dogs like Daryl's Malinois and after generations of random breeding they would all look vaguely like Dingos. Oh well, I did say it.

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9 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

None of the people who rode with Rick all that time can be bothered to spend a little time with his daughter?  Carol is 'raising' Henry (and doing a terrible job, by the way) yet she doesn't know that the daughter of TWO of her closest friends is hanging out with a rapist/mass murderer?  Bullshit.

Judith is Michonne’s daughter, not Carol’s. Carol is at the Kingdom so she can’t and shouldn’t be expected to keep an eye on Judith who is st ASZ. That’s on Michonne and the people who live there. 

And Henry’s just too stupid to train and deserves to die. That’s on him and not Carol too. Lol

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1 hour ago, Persnickety1 said:

LOL, you're right.  I think I'm the one who called him "Adam" earlier in this thread.  

I guess that shows how interchangeable/irrelevant some of these characters are to the show.  

I'm waiting to see the fallout from Gabriel overhearing Rosita talking about being pregnant.  

Holy crap. This is the most Walking Dead thing ever. LOL I had no idea you were wrong, and I suspect neither did half the people in this thread. 

I've been trying to think of something I'd care about less than Rosita being pregnant, and I've got nothing. 

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11 minutes ago, Ocean Chick said:

Judith is Michonne’s daughter, not Carol’s. Carol is at the Kingdom so she can’t and shouldn’t be expected to keep an eye on Judith who is st ASZ. That’s on Michonne and the people who live there. 

And Henry’s just too stupid to train and deserves to die. That’s on him and not Carol too. Lol

I don't think Carol should be dropping in everyday to make Judith lunch.  I just think that Rick's friends should keep an eye on his children because they loved him.  Daryl should be making way more of an effort than Carol because he lives close by. 

And I can't argue about Henry being too stupid to live.

I noticed Michonne's new voice.  Perhaps it's the weight of the new wig that's straining her vocal cords.  Between the clanging of falling anvils and the sotto voce speaking, I couldn't understand half of what Michonne and Daryl were talking about.  Luckily, I'm well versed in 'meaningful looks' so I think I have some idea.

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8 hours ago, marcee said:

I, too, am having logistical problems with the Whisperers as a "thing". Yes, it's creepy and interesting... but at the end of the day, what is the purpose? If they spend their time slowly shuffling around in the midst of zombie hordes when and where and how do they get food and clean water. Everything's been stripped bare. If they're not growing food or taking time to purify water... how are they surviving? If they're caring for their hordes, how are they caring for themselves? If they really believe the world belongs to the dead, why don't they just join the dead? I can't imagine a long term strategy for this story that makes any kind of sense.

I so agree with this. There is no end game with the Whisperers. Besides the flesh that they take from the dead would continue to decompose and fall apart. The whole thing is creepy, but makes no logical sense. The thing that I really hated though, was the fact that AMC just completely spoiled these guys before the show even came back.  If you saw ANY commercials at all before last night, you saw what would happen. That kind of ruins it for those that have never read the novels. I think they made a huge mistake getting rid of Carl as well. Carl leading the younger crew would have been of interest to me. Judith, not at all. 

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7 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Michonne and that hot mess that's on her head.  I wish she'd just get a haircut. 

Bingo!  They should let the actress forget the wig and wear her own close-cropped hair.

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That young girl is Judith?  I didn't watch the first of the season, so how many years have passed?  The last time I saw Judith she was about four years old.

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29 minutes ago, riverheightsnancy said:

I so agree with this. There is no end game with the Whisperers. Besides the flesh that they take from the dead would continue to decompose and fall apart. The whole thing is creepy, but makes no logical sense.

Right unless they are tanning the skin but then, wouldnt that just make it leather and how is that blocking living human smell anyway?

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23 minutes ago, riverheightsnancy said:

I so agree with this. There is no end game with the Whisperers. Besides the flesh that they take from the dead would continue to decompose and fall apart. The whole thing is creepy, but makes no logical sense. The thing that I really hated though, was the fact that AMC just completely spoiled these guys before the show even came back.  If you saw ANY commercials at all before last night, you saw what would happen. That kind of ruins it for those that have never read the novels. I think they made a huge mistake getting rid of Carl as well. Carl leading the younger crew would have been of interest to me. Judith, not at all. 

I couldn't understand why there was so much talk about the Whisperers all over AMC.  It just seemed to defeat the purpose and remove any element of surprise.  And then throw in that it doesn't make one single lick of sense.  These people are walking around in herds of walkers, wearing walker skins.  Why?  What purpose does it serve?  The Governor, Termites even the Saviours were evil for a purpose.  What do the Whisperers get out of this mishegas?  They scare people.  That's it? 

Like so many have said, the boilerplate excuses just don't make any sense any more.  My husband/wife/son/daughter/pet was killed so I decided to become evil.  It's more than 10 years into the ZA; who are you terrorizing anymore? 

I get the feeling that the Whisperers are going to be Neganx100.  It only works in a comic book.  A character that walks around carrying a baseball bat talking about his dick might work on paper but not in live action.  Dwight and Sherry's story was much more interesting than Negan's story was because they were REAL people trying to survive, not cartoon characters.

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49 minutes ago, Diane M said:

That young girl is Judith?  I didn't watch the first of the season, so how many years have passed?  The last time I saw Judith she was about four years old.

Six years passed between the end of last season and the start of this one.

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Does "Alpha" have anything to do with the "This one is an A and this one is a B" business?

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16 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I don't think the problem was losing the main characters.  I think the problem was that the writers didn't really attempt to build up any of the newer characters to replace the main characters until they started losing the main characters.

Really.  When they are scraping the bottom of the barrel by making Tara a lead character?  Not good writing.  Reading this thread I have to keep reminding myself who all these people being mentioned are.  Luke?  Alpha?  Adam?  Ha!  I thought I knew who Neil was but I guess I was mixing him up the horse guy, too.  It was surprising that Bret Butler is still in the cast. 

The characters we care about need to be together so we can see them in each episode.  Filling time with poorly written people whose names we can't remember isn't going to cut it, neither is the wash, rinse, repeat plot of someone gets lost, others go to find him/her, they get captured by bad guys, war ensues.  That said, this is still better than the tedious Saviors plot.

Never mind who is watching Judith, who is watching Michonne's baby?

I agree the Whisperers make no sense.  Shouldn't they be scavenging food and water instead of shuffling around with the walkers?  What's the point?

I also agree that trying to redeem Negan is disappointing.  However, JDM acted the hell out of the scene with his return to the Sanctuary.

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41 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I also agree that trying to redeem Negan is disappointing.  However, JDM acted the hell out of the scene with his return to the Sanctuary.

 

At the risk of ticking off the anti-Negan (which I feel I'm a part of for obvious reasons), I too thought JDM did a great job the other night. The scene when Judith caught him going over the fence — I mean he could have easily bopped her on the head, or taken her gun. But he didn't . . . and I think it's that he likes her AND didn't want to hurt her. I think you saw the turmoil on his face and even in his movements. Freedom was right there ... but for this little girl.

Not that JDM is Laurence Olivier, but when compared with ALL the other actors currently on theis show, he STANDS out. (Except when he goes on one of his 20-minute monologues which seems to be only dick-related. Not exactly Shakesperean!!!)

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14 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

That was Ken, son of Brett Butler's character, Tammy.  He was in just that one episode to protect the horses and then died.  We joked at the time that he was the Neil of season 9.

Neil was some random background character who was sitting in the passenger seat next to Maggie when one of the Savior bigwigs shot him in the head after they broke out of the Sanctuary.  Maggie immediately began caterwauling that "they shot Neil!" and making her revenge in threatening to kill other Savior prisoners all about justice for Neil.  Except that I don't think we'd ever heard Neil speak and didn't know anything about him.

TPTB are going to have to start putting "Hello my name is" stickers on all of these "one bite wonder" characters.   I can't keep track of them all.

I miss Ken.  Now that I know his name, I miss the "horse whisperer" even more.

Edited by icemiser69
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23 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Technically, Judith is the daughter of Shane and Lori.

I do agree that someone should be keeping an eye on Judith.  I don't know why she is allowed to run all over the place with a revolver in her hands.  I am surprised that the antagonists haven't kidnapped her yet.   The adults get caught all of the time, and Judith can wonder all over the place without being in any danger of some bad element even sneezing on her.

Nope, Judith letting Negan go is more reliable than a DNA test.  She is Rick's.   Shane's little girl would have blown his head off.

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21 hours ago, diebartdie said:

Fuck it, let's talk about those dogs. I was thinking about them when I watched the shitty shitty show last night. That one big black one had cropped ears. How would that be a thing? I mean dogs generally live 8-15 years. All those dogs looked young and healthy so clearly, they were born wild and free and were all younger than Judith. Aint gonna be no cropped ears on dogs that late in the ZA. 

The ears could have been bitten off by a zombie. I assume that any existing packs of large dogs are habitually eating zombies. A lot of their diet could just be scavenging the completely-dead ones that get shot and left behind every week, but based on their aggressiveness toward Negan I would also assume that they often hunt and kill their own prey, only seriously avoiding confrontations with groups of zombies or humans.

What I do have a problem with is that, reagrdless of whether the individual in question was a zombie, a whisperer, or a chupacabra, if they or it could be spun around like a ragdoll so easily by Negan then the dogs should have torn them to pieces pretty easily. I mean, we've seen Daryl rip off a zombie's head one-handed, for christsake. You can swing a chain through three of their heads at once. You can kill them by squirting a fire hose! Even it lands a lucky kill bite on one, you really think none of the other zombie-hunting dogs are going to chomp into its ridiculous cardboard skull and put an end to it?

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2 hours ago, Haleth said:

When they are scraping the bottom of the barrel by making Tara a lead character?  Not good writing.

It's sad to see TPTB getting desperate enough to promote Miss "I have two expressions in my repertoire" Tara in this way.

1 hour ago, SamBeckett said:

Not that JDM is Laurence Olivier, but when compared with ALL the other actors currently on theis show, he STANDS out

I agree he's a competent actor for sure and that showed the few times he was acting like a normal human being.  After he joined TWD I checked him out in another role and he was likable and personable but his previous performances here - although I know he was just doing as asked to be Bobby K's self-insert -  made him so annoying, loathesome and boring that for me it taints everything else he does.

34 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Nope, Judith letting Negan go is more reliable than a DNA test.  She is Rick's.   Shane's little girl would have blown his head off.

But Real Rick would have blown his head off too. He never hesitated to blow heads off.  He killed Shane, after all. Pod-person "Can't we all just get along?" Rick, invented to make sure Negan stays around forever, was a fairly recent incarnation.

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50 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Nope, Judith letting Negan go is more reliable than a DNA test.  She is Rick's.   Shane's little girl would have blown his head off.

Rick raised her after he killed Shane, that is where she got her "soft as a pillow" instinct..  I thought it was pretty much established earlier in the series as well as Rick's last episode when he was in the car with Shane  (dream sequence) that Shane was indeed the father of Judith.

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9 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

But Real Rick would have blown his head off too. He never hesitated to blow heads off.  He killed Shane, after all.

Depends entirely on which Rick you were dealing with.  Kill 'Em All Rick, the guy who murdered people pre-emtively, sure.  The Rick who doggedly insisted that it was better to shoot at windows than take out the source of so much of their misery for some larger ill-defined lesson about building a better world, not so much.  That's where the show really wasted Jon Berenthal's cameo in Rick's big death fantasy dream sequence.  Instead of retreading the same tired old banter the show should have had dream fantasy Shane smacking Rick upside the head and asking him WTH he was thinking leaving someone like Negan alive.  We know Shane wouldn't have.

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Just now, nodorothyparker said:

The Rick who doggedly insisted that it was better to shoot at windows than take out the source of so much of their misery for some larger ill-defined lesson about building a better world, not so much. 

I should have said, "Pre-Negan Rick" rather than "Real" since Post-Negan Rick was someone else, someone who would turn on his own people to protect the person who would have been Carl's murderer if not for the intervention of a frickin' tiger.

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22 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

At this point, I don't know if Henry's naive hothouse flower routine is indicative or being raised by two people who'd already lost too much and did the equivalent of bubble-wrapping him or it's a larger indictment of these communities that appear to have mostly sat behind walls for most of the six-year time jump.  In the meantime, the ASZhats seem to have given up all pretense of paying any attention to Judith, who gets to hang out unsupervised with a serial murderer and torturer whenever she isn't out wandering the roads with a gun that any adult could easily take off of her at any time were he so inclined.  That's a level of child neglect Lori Grimes would be deeply impressed by and would have made Carl envious.

At this point I'm wondering if the writers are trying to make the argument that nature trumps nurture. But at the same time shielding the children with much more plot armor. Judith seems to have the same nature as Carl, in that she always sneaks off and tells no one. It doesn't seem to matter how many times the parents say 'don't do that', the kids don't learn. It also seems that Judith's sneaking off doesn't seem to have had the dire consequences that Carl's did. I mean Carl got people killed with his antics and he was often himself in need of a last minute save. They don't seem willing to do the same for Judith which is weird.

I don't fault Carol for Henry. That little idiot was this way long before Carol even became a 'parent' for him. He's been doing the sneaking off, running into danger, not having control over his emotions or holding back when needed since we met him. His older brother makes an interesting contrast to that. They had parents, then the older brother raised Henry (probably like his parents raised him) and both then sort of taken in by Ezekiel. But the brothers are different, hence the conclusion that nature trumps nurture. Henry won't change (much like Carl didn't) and it will be continued trouble for everyone.

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42 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

The ears could have been bitten off by a zombie. I assume that any existing packs of large dogs are habitually eating zombies. A lot of their diet could just be scavenging the completely-dead ones that get shot and left behind every week, but based on their aggressiveness toward Negan I would also assume that they often hunt and kill their own prey, only seriously avoiding confrontations with groups of zombies or humans.

What I do have a problem with is that, reagrdless of whether the individual in question was a zombie, a whisperer, or a chupacabra, if they or it could be spun around like a ragdoll so easily by Negan then the dogs should have torn them to pieces pretty easily. I mean, we've seen Daryl rip off a zombie's head one-handed, for christsake. You can swing a chain through three of their heads at once. You can kill them by squirting a fire hose! Even it lands a lucky kill bite on one, you really think none of the other zombie-hunting dogs are going to chomp into its ridiculous cardboard skull and put an end to it?

Unpopular opinion, but I didn't feel a twinge of 'poor doggies' in that scene.  That herd of fat and sassy dogs would have torn any and all walkers to pieces.  Shit, they were going after Negan, weren't they?  The showrunners put the scene off camera because they knew that a lot of animal lovers would get the vapours at the mere suggestion of animal danger.  Forget that there's a little girl hanging out with a mass murderer/sexual predator.

I think DreamShane told Rick Judith was his just to fuck with him.  No child of Shane is going to let a danger to his loved ones live.  That's all Rick Grimes. Or whoever it was that was wearing Rick's clothes by the time Andrew Lincoln checked out. 

There was a time when I LOVED Rick.  The Rick who tore a man's throat out for THREATENING to rape his son.  When Rick Grimes said 'They're messing with the wrong people' I CHEERED.  That Rick Grimes got lost somewhere on the road and by the time they got to Alexandria, I couldn't stand him.  It made me sick to see one of my favourite characters ever get stuck with a man so unworthy of her. 

Being an asshole must be sexually transmitted because I don't know who this dreadlocked person carrying a katana is.  It sure as shit isn't Michonne.  She doesn't even SOUND like Michonne anymore.  Michonne was working on a charter for all the groups to follow.  Now we're supposed to believe that Michonne doesn't want to have anything to do with the people she fought and bled with.  That she would turn her back on MAGGIE.  No matter what Maggie felt about keeping Negan alive, she was Glenn's wife.  Little Hershel was Glenn's child.  I will never believe that Michonne would turn on Maggie.  Michonne was ride or die for her family, not just the guy she was fucking.  But they had to shit on Michonne because they didn't want to pay Lauren what she was worth.

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26 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

Unpopular opinion, but I didn't feel a twinge of 'poor doggies' in that scene.  That herd of fat and sassy dogs would have torn any and all walkers to pieces.  Shit, they were going after Negan, weren't they?  The showrunners put the scene off camera because they knew that a lot of animal lovers would get the vapours at the mere suggestion of animal danger.  Forget that there's a little girl hanging out with a mass murderer/sexual predator.

I agree!

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