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Giant Misfit

Leaving Neverland

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42 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Joe Jackson's dead. But probably the rest of them. None of them are decent people, I don't think. 

Welp, there goes that theory.

A few of the brothers (Tito?) also seem really invested, but I always felt like Joe Jackson was the driving force behind the "everyone is making stuff up" brigade.  

Janet seems to keep her distance from the whole situation.  Latoya defended MJ, but I haven't heard from her sinc celebrity apprentice.  It could be Catherine if she is alive, because she is a class a enabler, but she is so meek that I couldn't see her doing much.

However, the Jackson 4 (Tito + other brothers whose names I can't be bothered to Google) could have a vested interest in pushing a conspiracy narrative since they may lose Jackson 5 money if everyone thinks MJ was a pedophile.

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10 hours ago, RealReality said:

A few of the brothers (Tito?) also seem really invested, but I always felt like Joe Jackson was the driving force behind the "everyone is making stuff up" brigade.  

Joe Jackson ruled with an iron fist when he was alive, but a lot of the Jackson's have a vested interest in protecting Michael Jackson's legacy (i.e. money).  At different times, MJ's siblings, their children, their ex-wives, etc., live/lived with Katherine Jackson.  MJ paid all of Katherine's bills, and his estate went to his three children and Katherine Jackson.  So even in death MJ is paying all the bills.  I imagine they think a lawsuit against the documentary and people involved will look more sympathetic if Prince, Paris, and Blanket/Bidi are the ones filing the lawsuit.

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On 4/18/2019 at 11:10 AM, Ubiquitous said:

Oh my gosh! I had forgotten about Captain EO until reading that article! Wasn't MJ with a little boy in it?

Wow, I remember someone talking about MJ speaking differently in private.

Liza Minnelli said right after he died he talked with an adult voice with friends and it was all an act,

Edited by Dorne2.0
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On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 9:45 PM, icecweem said:

Now I understand why everyone in the chat is convinced the claims are true. There are literally no counter arguments addressed throughout this whole documentary hence why HBO is being sued for the documentary now (among other reasons). You have family members of MJ as well as other boys Michael befriended that claim it isn't true as well Wade's cousin who claimed Wade is lying (the cousin claimed to have spent time with MJ too and Wade never addressed his cousins claims). I get the point of MJ being particular about who he touched or violated but lets be honest here

Wait, are you saying Wade and James lied but MJ really was a pedophile?

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 1:37 AM, Umbelina said:

Feldman clarifies stopping his support for MJ, and says he couldn't watch the entire thing, it was too painful.

Ugh, I just can't deal with Corey Feldman! He is his own worst enemy.

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 6:13 PM, Umbelina said:

This is new to me, but a pretty dang comprehensive recap of MJ and sex with kids, and what it did to his finances, etc.

Thought I'd put it here, because it does answer some questions raised in this thread.

WOW!

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On ‎4‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 11:21 AM, TigerLynx said:

Joe Jackson ruled with an iron fist when he was alive, but a lot of the Jackson's have a vested interest in protecting Michael Jackson's legacy (i.e. money).  At different times, MJ's siblings, their children, their ex-wives, etc., live/lived with Katherine Jackson.  MJ paid all of Katherine's bills, and his estate went to his three children and Katherine Jackson.  So even in death MJ is paying all the bills.  I imagine they think a lawsuit against the documentary and people involved will look more sympathetic if Prince, Paris, and Blanket/Bidi are the ones filing the lawsuit.

The only actionable issue for a lawsuit against the documentary's producers is by someone who is living who feels they were defamed.  Michael Jackson is dead and therefore cannot be defamed.  His estate cannot sue except for other reasons than defamation which is why they went after HBO which had signed an agreement not to broadcast any negative information about MJ in conjunction getting rights to a concert of his they showed more than 20 years ago.  Obviously, the injunction didn't happen because expecting HBO to keep that agreement in perpetuity even in the face of new allegations is probably not legally sound. 

Since Jackson's kids were mentioned in the documentary, albeit briefly, in a story told by Robson; they're the only living people who can claim defamation.  However, Robson's story, that the kids didn't seem particularly concerned when Jackson left the room and never came back; that he thought that this must not have seemed unusual to them; is going to be tough to prove as defamatory.  Amongst other things, Prince, the oldest child, was only 8 in 2005 when Robson said the visit to Neverland occurred.  Paris was 7 and Blanket was 3.  I find it difficult to believe that that particular story implied anything negative about the Jackson kids, who were, in fact, just kids.

I think it is important to remember how MJ treated the other kids in his life and presume that his children were raised similarly (pedophilia excepted we hope).  He isolated children, kept them close to him and away from other adults.  Kids were taught to view him as the benevolent, all loving, all wise best friend who loved them most of all and would never, ever do anything to hurt them.  He also presented himself to kids as a hurt child, a victim, an innocent who needed protection from the big, bad outside world which wanted to hurt him.  I am sure that message was ground into Michael's kids too, and it is going to be very hard for them to accept any other version of their father; especially with the rest of the Jackson family reinforcing that POV.  Kids who are indoctrinated young take a very, very long time to question the world view that they are given; some never do.  Look how long it took Wade and James to realize what happened to them and they had spent their earliest years outside of Michael's influence.  MJ's kids may never realize how warped their view of their father really is.  They were brainwashed by a cult, in a sense, sort of like kids who've grown up in Scientology, etc.

Edited by doodlebug
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7 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

Dang, I'm out of free articles this month and the NYT has started blocking incognito browsers. 

I hate that they do that. I get that I should pay for content, but putting in my credit card number for something else?  Ugh.  Wish it could just be included with my Netflix or Amazon.

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8 hours ago, Robert Lynch said:

It was an interesting read. I give him some points for at least watching the documentary instead of the two writing MJ bios deciding not to watch it. Way to stay objective and do complete research on your subject. He mostly believes MJ is guilty except for a small part.

I don't understand how anyone can look at everything and not see it.

The settlement was brought up again just a little bit not by him but how fans think its a sign he was a victim. No rich person and/or celebrity ever pays a settlement to anyone even when they are guilty unless they have something. It doesn't happen. The rich person and/or celebrity have all the money, the best lawyers and celebrity status to win in court.  

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On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 7:33 AM, wendyg said:

The piece also has quotes from someone from The Simpsons saying that one reason for withdrawing the Jackson episode was his thought that Jackson may have used it to groom victims.

Isn't it kinda late now to be doing that?

On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 6:40 PM, Umbelina said:

There are a couple of significant things on this video, for anyone who still doubts James and/or Wade.  Former chief of security for MJ kept track of where people were sleeping.  He says over 100 boys slept in the room while he was in charge.

The rest is about Jordy, and it's pretty shocking, many saying "the beginning of the end" for MJ.  Gag orders skirted here with other family members.

Wow!

On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 6:47 PM, andromeda331 said:

Yes! That's another thing. No one who is rich and/or a celebrity ever pays a settlement unless there's something to it. No way. They have all the money, lawyers and power to destroy anyone trying to scam them or people they've actually done wrong but have no evidence. It doesn't happen. The Chandlors had something.  

Paying a settlement doesn't necessarily indicate guilt, but for this to happen over and over makes one wonder...

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:00 AM, pigs-in-space said:

Dang, I'm out of free articles this month and the NYT has started blocking incognito browsers. 

There are extensions for Google Chrome, Firefox, and some other non IE web browsers that allow you to bypass paywalls.

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2 hours ago, Ubiquitous said:

Paying a settlement doesn't necessarily indicate guilt, but for this to happen over and over makes one wonder...

There are extensions for Google Chrome, Firefox, and some other non IE web browsers that allow you to bypass paywalls.

In the case of Jordy Chandler, even Jackson's lawyers claim that the father originally requested around $2 million to finance some films he wanted to make.  The father was a dentist with aspirations of becoming a movie mogul.  But, at some point, something changed and 2 million wasn't enough; the family ended up with more than 10 times that amount.  So, what happened?  Did MJ just feel so sorry for Jordy and his family that he gave them a bonus?  Did he write the check and accidentally include an extra zero or two?  Or, did Jordy Chandler and his family have some very damning evidence, something that couldn't be explained away or rationalized; and, when MJ balked at handing over the 2 million, did they bring out the big guns and force him to pay a much higher price for their silence?  I know what I believe must've happened.  No other explanation makes sense.  Even Michael's representatives have talked about the initial 2 million ask and there are public records indicating that it was eventually $25 million.  There is a smoking gun and Jordy and his family held it and got paid.  Good for them, but Jordy's father is dead and Jordy changed his name and disappeared with his money, so we'll probably never hear the full story.

Edited by doodlebug
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Mesereau finally speaks out on Leaving Neverland.  I guess he's been busy keeping another rapist, child molester or wife killer on the streets.

Not exactly hard-hitting or unbiased, that interviewer is SO annoying.

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4 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

Mesereau finally speaks out on Leaving Neverland.  I guess he's been busy keeping another rapist, child molester or wife killer on the streets.

Not exactly hard-hitting or unbiased, that interviewer is SO annoying.

Meserau, uh! I just vomited in my mouth. He still has that same pageboy hairstyle? Time to change, man.

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On 4/22/2019 at 9:27 PM, RealReality said:

I hate that they do that. I get that I should pay for content, but putting in my credit card number for something else?  Ugh.  Wish it could just be included with my Netflix or Amazon.

As an alternative, you could try Blendle.com. You do still need to put in a credit card, but it gives you access to myriad publications. You pay out of your account balance for the articles you read (usually like 25 cents or so), and can ask for a refund if the article wasn't what you expected/wanted.

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3 hours ago, wendyg said:

As an alternative, you could try Blendle.com. You do still need to put in a credit card, but it gives you access to myriad publications. You pay out of your account balance for the articles you read (usually like 25 cents or so), and can ask for a refund if the article wasn't what you expected/wanted.

Good looking out!  I'll check that out!

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I always knew Diana Ross would defend him, but she never once questioned the lyrics to the song, Muscles, penned by MJ? I know he kind of based it on his pet snake, but the lyrics are really creepy. 

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If you were affected by Leaving Neverland, please take the time to find the new HBO documentary At the Heart Of Gold about the Larry Nassar-USA Gymnastics scandal.  It's horrifying.  It has its own thread under HBO Documentary forum.

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On 5/3/2019 at 9:55 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

If you were affected by Leaving Neverland, please take the time to find the new HBO documentary At the Heart Of Gold about the Larry Nassar-USA Gymnastics scandal.  It's horrifying.  It has its own thread under HBO Documentary forum.

I will thank you. 

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15 hours ago, Robert Lynch said:

Madonna on Michael Jackson's allegations

Oh, Madge, just go! You still don't know what the heck you are talking about.

Better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you're a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Madonna's opinion on the topic isn't even relevant, and, naturally, she brings it all back around to herself because she is the center of the universe.  She has had people tell lies about her, therefore, anyone saying negative things about a celeb must be a liar unless she decides they are credible.  And, any accuser who might, somehow, someday, someway benefit from their accusations cannot be believed, either.  Because the fact that they weren't paid for the documentary and they gave out so many details for free that there is nothing left for them to blackmail the estate with  is not proof that they aren't making money off of their tale. I guess she is referring to the lawsuit, filed years ago and dismissed, which they've been appealing for years is the reason she cannot believe them, because someday, it could be reinstated and then, several years later, there could be a trial and, after years of appeals; they could win some money if they're not dead by then.  She is an idiot.

Edited by doodlebug
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13 hours ago, Robert Lynch said:

Jermaine rips onto Quincy Jones

Jermaine needs to go wherever he came from and leave off the sharpie pens. Not a good look for a 65 year old man with a girl who is half his age. 

His time would better be spent working to pay all the spousal and child support he owes himself instead of relying on the money his Mother gets from Michael's estate. I read that she gets a stipend of about $67,000 and spreads $58,850 of that out between some of her children in varying amounts.

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Oh, god, Madonna, you were a rape victim, yourself!  Give me a fucking break.

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So MJ wrote songs, choreographed dance moves, performed all over the world. I just don't understand why his followers cannot believe he was a pedophile. Just like a lot of Catholics can't believe priests molest children. 

MJ didn't discover a cure for cancer or autism or Parkinson's. He got on stage and sang/danced. BFD. Creative genious? Maybe in the music industry. But DEFINITELY in the pedophile industry. 

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48 minutes ago, chenoa333 said:

So MJ wrote songs, choreographed dance moves, performed all over the world. I just don't understand why his followers cannot believe he was a pedophile. Just like a lot of Catholics can't believe priests molest children. 

MJ didn't discover a cure for cancer or autism or Parkinson's. He got on stage and sang/danced. BFD. Creative genious? Maybe in the music industry. But DEFINITELY in the pedophile industry. 

I think what it comes down to more than anything is 1) they just don't want to believe the person who made/created something they love and identify with can be a monster, and 2) people have a hard time comprehending the idea of a "seductive" pedophile.

Regarding the second one especially- if someone has never been abused, it's REALLY hard for them to imagine this scenario where a "relationship" forms between the abuser and the child so that the child not only thinks this is okay, but even likes it (or thinks they like it).

And that's the reality of this kind of child sexual abuse- people do not want to face that. Comments from someone like Barbra Streisand show that (even though she apologized). But her instinctive reaction was to think well, if the boys loved him and were okay with it, maybe it wasn't so awful?  I even wonder if that's how some of these mothers rationalized it to themselves (I think they knew deep down what was going on). That's a way of rationalizing the horror of the reality of what's really happening.

And forcing people to realize that more often than not, this is what it's like, makes them really uncomfortable and makes them want to turn away from it even more, sadly. People don't want to accept the truth and figure out how to deal with it when it makes them so uncomfortable. I think in some ways it's easier for an adult to grasp and deal with the reality of someone hurting your child in a violent way than to realize that your child has been pulled into a secret, "relationship" with an adult to the point where they think they're in love with them. Because then how are they going to deal with the ways this kid has now been affected by this twisted relationship? I bet for some parents it's too much and they won't want to deal with it, but avoid it. Which will lead to even more pain, for everyone.

Edited by ruby24
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3 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I think what it comes down to more than anything is 1) they just don't want to believe the person who made/created something they love and identify with can be a monster, and 2) people have a hard time comprehending the idea of a "seductive" pedophile.

Regarding the second one especially- if someone has never been abused, it's REALLY hard for them to imagine this scenario where a "relationship" forms between the abuser and the child so that the child not only thinks this is okay, but even likes it (or thinks they like it).

And that's the reality of this kind of child sexual abuse- people do not want to face that. Comments from someone like Barbra Streisand show that (even though she apologized). But her instinctive reaction was to think well, if the boys loved him and were okay with it, maybe it wasn't so awful?  I even wonder if that's how some of these mothers rationalized it to themselves (I think they knew deep down what was going on). That's a way of rationalizing the horror of the reality of what's really happening.

And forcing people to realize that more often than not, this is what it's like, makes them really uncomfortable and makes them want to turn away from it even more, sadly. People don't want to accept the truth and figure out how to deal with it when it makes them so uncomfortable. I think in some ways it's easier for an adult to grasp and deal with the reality of someone hurting your child in a violent way than to realize that your child has been pulled into a secret, "relationship" with an adult to the point where they think they're in love with them. Because then how are they going to deal with the ways this kid has now been affected by this twisted relationship? I bet for some parents it's too much and they won't want to deal with it, but avoid it. Which will lead to even more pain, for everyone.

Very well stated Ruby24. There are so many psychological aspects of a child being molested by a "friend". Parents can't accept that they were unaware, a child believes whatever the molester tells them (don't tell anyone or we'll both go to jail, it's a natural thing/an expression of love and blah blah blah). MJ used his money, fame and power to do despicable, unforgivable acts on  a child. And money, fame and power can be intoxicating to some people. It can make them blind to reality while they are living in a fantasy.

I wonder if Wade's mom would've responded the same way if the creepy,skinny, greasy haired older man NEXT DOOR, was inviting Wade over for sleepovers, video games, year long vacations together WITHOUT Wade's family. I doubt it. The perv next door would have been busted the first time Lil Wade was invited to do a sleepover and play with choo choo trains.

I have nothing but respect for Wade for finally coming forward and having the courage to tell the truth about MJ. aka: PEDOPHILE!

Edited by chenoa333
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On 5/11/2019 at 2:10 AM, Jaded said:

His time would better be spent working to pay all the spousal and child support he owes himself instead of relying on the money his Mother gets from Michael's estate. I read that she gets a stipend of about $67,000 and spreads $58,850 of that out between some of her children in varying amounts.

I would have expected her to get a lot more than that, honestly. I wonder what percentage of the proceeds from his estate goes to her.

Maybe the family gets less than people perceive, due to the obscene amount of debt that Michael left behind?

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1 hour ago, SnK said:

Saw this on twitter but haven't listened to it yet 

John Ziegler must be angling for his turn as NAMBLA president—he's also an apologist for Jerry Sandusky. 

I'm not inclined to listen to anyone who says Wade is lying unless they were in the room when Jackson was molesting him.

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On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 3:54 PM, chenoa333 said:

I wonder if Wade's mom would've responded the same way if the creepy,skinny, greasy haired older man NEXT DOOR, was inviting Wade over for sleepovers, video games, year long vacations together WITHOUT Wade's family. I doubt it. The perv next door would have been busted the first time Lil Wade was invited to do a sleepover and play with choo choo trains.

Just like there are so many people who believe an attractive man can't be a rapist.  If the predator doesn't fit their perceived vision of what a criminal should look like, they don't want to believe it.

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28 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Just like there are so many people who believe an attractive man can't be a rapist.  If the predator doesn't fit their perceived vision of what a criminal should look like, they don't want to believe it.

Exactly. I don't even have any kids but I could smell "child predator" on MJ.   His fake "baby" voice. His love for adolescent BOYS only. His story about being so lonely and having no friends. 

And the Neverland Ranch? Creepy. With the carnival rides, children's train, kids arcade, petting (no pun intended!) zoo, MJ having private pajama parties with adolescent boys. And why is it that MJ NEVER had little girls over? If his "love for children" was his reason for "entertaining" kids..why only boys? We all know why, he was a predator whose preference was little boys. 

I'll agree that the landscaping was pretty but aside from that....I would've grabbed my kid, called a taxi and got the hell out of there. And filled out an official complaint with the PD. I'm glad MJ is gone. And by his own sick demise.

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9 hours ago, chenoa333 said:

Exactly. I don't even have any kids but I could smell "child predator" on MJ.   His fake "baby" voice. His love for adolescent BOYS only. His story about being so lonely and having no friends. 

And the Neverland Ranch? Creepy. With the carnival rides, children's train, kids arcade, petting (no pun intended!) zoo, MJ having private pajama parties with adolescent boys. And why is it that MJ NEVER had little girls over? If his "love for children" was his reason for "entertaining" kids..why only boys? We all know why, he was a predator whose preference was little boys. 

I'll agree that the landscaping was pretty but aside from that....I would've grabbed my kid, called a taxi and got the hell out of there. And filled out an official complaint with the PD. I'm glad MJ is gone. And by his own sick demise.

There will be another documentary called Killing Michael Jackson. Not sure when it would be release.

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I was molested by a beloved family member until I was 4 or 6, I can't remember exactly. My abuser was a woman (I'm a woman) and she was molested before by a family member too. I think that's why this documentary touched me so strongly. I completely understand these men refusal to look at it as abuse for so long, even after adulthood. But people don't understand that. They don't want to. They don't wanna believe child sexual abuse can feel like affection, they don't want to believe a mother would abuse her daughter. They don't want to believe you can still care about your abuser. They don't wanna believe abusers sometimes think they are doing nothing wrong but showing love or that touching, caressing and kissing their child's genitals is sexual abuse and not normal because it was done to them by their parents or grandparents. It's sad people are so attached to Michael Jackson's image to see what's obvious. They have never been through that kind of abuse, and they don't want to face their Beloved Idol is a pedophile.... They claim Wade and James defended MJ so strongly before, well so did a lot of Warren Jeff's child brides, they don't understand the victim's mindset. I watched that once, I just saw they were telling the truth, they'd have to be incredible actors and have an awful lot of insight into this kind of abuse to lie so well. It's disheartening you can even voice your opinion it's true without being attacked in most discussion sites online. 

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Here's an Australian TV interview with a woman who was a maid at Neverland, who cleaned Michael's bedroom ...

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On 6/10/2019 at 12:20 PM, chenoa333 said:

Exactly. I don't even have any kids but I could smell "child predator" on MJ.   His fake "baby" voice. His love for adolescent BOYS only. His story about being so lonely and having no friends. 

And the Neverland Ranch? Creepy. With the carnival rides, children's train, kids arcade, petting (no pun intended!) zoo, MJ having private pajama parties with adolescent boys. And why is it that MJ NEVER had little girls over? If his "love for children" was his reason for "entertaining" kids..why only boys? We all know why, he was a predator whose preference was little boys. 

I'll agree that the landscaping was pretty but aside from that....I would've grabbed my kid, called a taxi and got the hell out of there. And filled out an official complaint with the PD. I'm glad MJ is gone. And by his own sick demise.

For me what really sealed it was his taking Webster to be his date to the award show. Here is a guy who could have the most beautiful adult woman or man in the world (though I think his religion was very homophobic) and he goes out of his way to take a person who looks like a perpetual boy. Also,the way he could not keep away from little boys even after he got in trouble was not the way a normal man who genuinely loves kids in a non sexual manner behaves.

Edited by qtpye
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23 hours ago, qtpye said:

For me what really sealed it was his taking Webster to be his date to the award show. Here is a guy who could have the most beautiful adult woman or man in the world (though I think his religion was very homophobic) and he goes out of his way to take a person who looks like a perpetual boy. Also,the way he could not keep away from little boys even after he got in trouble was not the way a normal man who genuinely loves kids in a non sexual manner behaves.

At the time MJ took Emmanuel Lewis to that awards show Emmanuel was a child (he was 12); although it seems as if they kept in touch MJ stopped paying him “special attention” when he was actually a legal adult, when he no longer needed a place to hide out after the Pepsi commercial fire. UMMMHMMMM. So even though Emmanuel still looked pre-pubescent, when he was actually a grown man MJ wasnt interested in a “friendship”. Or Emmanuel got wise to his ways and wanted no parts of him. 

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I took issue with some things but in the end, I believe James and Wade.  

Although they really should have left Wade's mother out of it.  She gave me the creeps with her constant giggling.  She still speaks about the things MJ did for them as if she was somehow elevated in status because of it.  And she giggled way too much about the things he used to do for them.  

And I had a big big problem with the positioning of Wade's parents divorce.  I don't think he gave two shits whether or not she was married.  The suggestion that he was the reason for their divorce as if he pushed her to it really irked me.  Not because I was defending him but because she dodged responsibility for her own poor choices.  She was an adult.  She made the choice to take off with her son to LA.  She made the choice to divorce her husband because she felt it would make her look better to MJ.  

The notes to Wade were creepy.  I got the chills when they showed some of them.  Talking to children like that is weird.  Especially if they aren't yours.  I don't even talk to my dog like that.  

I mean, as far as not believing it...the man clearly stated he slept with kids in his bed.  He knew it was societally frowned upon and he openly admitted it anyway.  Which, to me, says he didn't think what he was doing was wrong.  He felt it was love.  And in his own fucked up mind because it was love between two people it didn't matter that it was kids.  I don't know how an adult looks at his situation and thinks to themselves...."Yeah, he slept in his bed with kids but I'm sure that's as far as it went." 

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21 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Those women are just fucking nuts. 

I am sorry, but they lost me when one of them said they would defend MJ till the end. And this defamation lawsuit is ridiculous.

Edited by Robert Lynch
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