Leaving Neverland

[Guest]

Four-hour documentary airs on HBO on March 3rd and 4th. 

From the link:

Quote

HBO has announced that the four-hour long, two-part documentary Leaving Neverland will premiere on the network March 3 and March 4. Directed by Dan Reed, the film focuses on two men, Wade Robson and Jimmy Safechuck, who claim that, as children, they were sexually abused by the late pop star Michael Jackson.

I really hope this doc finally opens the public's eyes about what a monster this man was. But I've a feeling the general public will still parrot the Jackson family PR stance of  "leave Michael alone!" 

[Simon Boccanegra]

I don't know about the general public, but people who identify as huge Michael Jackson fans may say that. They've wanted to believe the best of him for so long, and their minds probably cannot be changed. Some of them are in the comments sections now everywhere this is being discussed on the internet, claiming they know more about MJ's legal cases than the documentarian or the reporters. Most either won't watch this or won't admit they watched it. If they do watch it and something in it makes them doubt Michael's innocence even a little, they may not want to admit that either. Believing in him means too much.   

I feel he lost the general public (including more casual fans) quite a while ago. Some people still have empathy for him, all things considered,. Many can put aside what they believe about his behavior toward children and still enjoy listening to "Billie Jean" or "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough." ("P.Y.T." is probably pushing it.) But the combination of weirdness/creepiness on multiple levels and the sheer crushing pathos of it all took something away that can never be won back.  

The response to the film at Sundance was very positive. Over and over, those who actually have seen all four hours have described it as extremely convincing. Even the one published reviewer who was hostile to it (a woman of color) took the position more that she didn't really know what to believe, and that the film was painful for her to sit through, rather than that it was patently false.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Simon Boccanegra

[MsTree]

I'm looking forward to this documentary to learn more about this pedophile's behavior. And to all those who don't want to believe MJ's sick behavior...your first clue would be the interview he did with Martin B. where MJ said (and I'm paraphrasing) "why can't you share your bed...it's the most beautiful thing". This was in response to Martin asking him about sharing his bed with boys. I forgot how old MJ was at the time, but I think he was pushing 50. For all the non-believers, think about another celebrity at that age (for instance, Brad Pitt) saying the same thing, and tell me it's not too creepy.

[Simon Boccanegra]

MsTree: You are not far off on the age. The interviews took place in 2002-03; Jackson would have been 44.

Here are the relevant quotes.  

Quote

I have slept in the bed with many children.  I sleep in the bed with all of them. When Macaulay Culkin was little, Kieran Culkin would sleep on this side, and Macaulay Culkin is on this side, his sister’s in there, we’d all just jam in the bed.  Then we’d wake up at dawn, and go in the hot air balloon.  We have the footage.  I have all of the footage. [Bashir question: But is that right, Michael?] It’s very right. It’s very loving. It’s what the world needs now.  More love.

He "has the footage"? Every time he slept with children, he made sure to get the whole thing on tape? That's the thing about Jackson that was always most disturbing to me. The "innocuous" spin he and his supporters put on something, rather than allaying concern, would just raise more questions. 

Quote

When you say bed, you’re thinking sexual, they make that sexual, and it’s not sexual, we’re going to sleep, I tuck them in, I put a little music on, I read a book, it’s very sweet, I put the fireplace on, I give them hot milk, we have cookies, it’s very charming, it’s very sweet.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Simon Boccanegra

[funky-rat]

I wouldn't mind seeing this, but we haven't had HBO in eons, and I just cancelled my Amazon Prime because my husband lost his job and we need all of the extra money we can get (I know sometimes HBO Docs show up there).

I pretty much stopped listening to his stuff after "Off The Wall".  The whole "Thriller" thing make him so overexposed, and since I wasn't a super fan to begin with, I just wanted him to go away (not unlike Madonna - I felt the same way about her).

Still, I was aware of his tragic upbringing, and I always felt he was essentially harmless.  Even through the Lisa Marie days, and the time he married the mother of his older kids.  He really began to lose me in the days when Blanket was a baby, but still, I felt that for a lot of it, he just didn't know any better due to his messed up childhood.  Then I saw the Bashir interview.  I changed my mind fully that day.  No more sympathy of any kind toward him.

[formerlyfreedom]

‘Leaving Neverland’ Trailer: Magical Childhood Memories Turn Dark In HBO Michael Jackson Documentary

[msrachelj]

direct tv has this as a 2 hour movie, no part one or two. all the descriptions are the same no matter which showing you bring up. what time is on march 3rd and 4th? i'll just have to have faith that i'm recording part one and two.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, msrachelj said:

direct tv has this as a 2 hour movie, no part one or two. all the descriptions are the same no matter which showing you bring up. what time is on march 3rd and 4th? i'll just have to have faith that i'm recording part one and two.

The TVGuide listing online shows Sunday night as "Part One" which airs from 8-10 and "Part Two" as Monday from 8-10. My Comcrap onscreen guide makes no distinction—and simply reads "Leaving Neverland" on both nights with the same episode description. The film is most definitely four hours though so it's probably best to manually record both.

[cpcathy]

I'm so on board for this. Michael Jackson estate earns a lot of money even after his death, his family and probably a lot of other people benefit from that money. I think they will always say he did nothing, just to keep the cash rolling in.

[msrachelj]

5 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

The TVGuide listing online shows Sunday night as "Part One" which airs from 8-10 and "Part Two" as Monday from 8-10. My Comcrap onscreen guide makes no distinction—and simply reads "Leaving Neverland" on both nights with the same episode description. The film is most definitely four hours though so it's probably best to manually record both.

direct tv first shows it on saturday hbo at 9 i believe. i recorded sat and sunday. will just have to check i have part 2! this is odd, that the description/info on the show does not say part one and two.

[biakbiak]

Following the second installment. Could be a game changer in public opinion because well Oprah.

[Guest]

Really interesting in-depth interview with filmmaker Dan Reed.

And here's an old clip of LaToya from the Today show reinforcing that the mother told her about Michael's abuse, including showing her checks written to several of the children's families: (WARNING! LaToya very casually recounts her mother calling Michael a f***** several times in this interview.)

[ruby24]

I wonder if this will cause more victims of his to step forward.

I also wonder if the same people who publicly supported the victims of R. Kelly's after the recent documentary will support MJ's victims or stay silent in the wake of this. 

[Robert Lynch]

Something tells me my stomach will do jumping jacks by watching this. Well, no pain no gain.

[druzy]

Why would anyone allow their son to spend the night with a grown man?

Also, Michael was the devil.

Edited March 4, 2019 by druzy

[Robert Lynch]

34 minutes ago, druzy said:

Why would anyone allow their son to spend the night with a grown man?

Also, Michael was the devil.

Ooh.....I need a shower. So uncomfortable. And those faxes...what the hell?

[EtheltoTillie]

Watching now. Too disturbing. What was wrong with those parents?  

[druzy]

[Guest]

I don't know if anyone else watched Abducted in Plain Sight on Netflix, so I'm going to put this comment in tags:

Spoiler

Michael's behavior reminded me exactly of B's behavior with Jan and, more specifically, her parents as he groomed all of them. Michael groomed both Wade and Jimmy's mothers, got them under his thrall and truly had them believing he was just some benign man-child. The same shit happened with B and Jan's parents—he knew exactly how he could manipulate them so he could continue raping Jan. 

Sickening. That's really just the word that went through my mind through those two painful hours of TV. Sickening. Michael Jackson was an evil human being. He ruined Wade's family and never gave a shit once the new boys came along—in this case, Macauley Culkin and Brett Barnes (who can continue to issue their denials but I'll never not believe they wasn't treated the same way as Gavin, Jordan, Jimmy, and Wade). Jackson was a serial pedophile who had us all groomed back in the 80s and early 90s with his "I never had a childhood" spiel and his constant stream of "he's just eccentric" PR stunts (Elephant Man bones/hyperbaric chamber nonsense). He laid that groundwork specifically so that anyone automatically just poo-poo'd his "love of children" as him just being a lovable icon with a "terrible childhood" who was just having the "childhood he never had" as an adult. I know I fell for it. Until Jordan Chandler came forward and that was the end of any misgivings I ever had about him. 

Fuck him. I hope he's rotting in hell.

[formerlyfreedom]

Never have I been happier that I was never a Michael Jackson fan. All those years of people being shocked when I said, "yeah, nope, don't like him," and I'm feeling vindicated.

But I really wish I weren't.

[druzy]

Michael Jackson Estate Drops Concert Film on YouTube During ‘Leaving Neverland’ Premiere

Quote

The Michael Jackson estate has taken one last swipe at the documentary “Leaving Neverland,” which alleges that the late singer sexually abused boys, by releasing a concert film on YouTube the exact length of the first part of the documentary, which airs on HBO Sunday night.

The Jackson estate’s Twitter account posted a link to the film about 20 minutes into Part 1 of “Leaving Neverland,” announcing that “Live in Bucharest (The Dangerous Tour),” from 1992, would be available for a “limited time.” At two hours and 20 minutes long, it’s the same length as the first part of “Leaving Neverland.”

It doesn’t end there, however. On Monday, a second concert film, “Live at Wembley Stadium” will air the same time as the second part of “Leaving Neverland.”

The move is the latest in series of actions taken by the Jackson estate to attempt to discredit the documentary since its Sundance premiere, not least of which is a $100 million lawsuit the estate filed against HBO. The premium cabler took little notice of it, however, stating that it would continue to air the documentary as planned.

Edited March 4, 2019 by druzy

[Lesia]

God that was horryfying.

[Guest]

Quote

not least of which is a $100 million lawsuit the estate filed against HBO.

Bring that shit on, I say. Discovery is going to tank those remaining assholes. 

An excellent article in Vanity Fair by Maureen Orth who's been covering Jackson's crimes since the 90s. It's called 10 Undeniable Facts About the Michael Jackson Sexual-Abuse Allegations, including this little nugget:

Quote

4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.

[druzy]

The MJ defenders are out in full force on Twitter.

If this story was told without mentioning the pedophile's name, everyone who is defending MJ on Twitter and elsewhere would be condemning him.

[chuckity]

I feel gross.

I also feel like I enabled MJ (as well as R Kelly FWIW) by continuing to buy their music.

Did Michael molest his own children?  Has that ever been alleged?

[ruby24]

1 minute ago, chuckity said:

I feel gross.

I also feel like I enabled MJ (as well as R Kelly FWIW) by continuing to buy their music.

Did Michael molest his own children?  Has that ever been alleged?

No one knows, but do these kinds of pedophiles make exceptions for their own relatives? I don't think so. I remember that Penn State coach a while back- wasn't his son one of his accusers?

Also, assuming MJ had less access to constant children in the time after the trial and before his death, I honestly would be surprised if he didn't molest his kids. The boys, I mean. He'd been doing this for decades at that point and I don't think these kinds of sick people just stop. 

[Irlandesa]

I thought this was pretty powerful.  There's just so much to unpack.  I think what was scariest for me is that I actually understood how the parents were seduced.  When I saw Abducted In Plain Sight, I just thought the parents were such idiots.  But here, he really sold the "just like a kid" routine to the point that he was treated as one.  Plus, the VIP special treatment amidst all the chaos that was his life, the unlimited resources, the shopping trips and the time spent on the phone with different members of the family.

And I think it's really important to show how children perceive these things and why it's sometimes hard to come to terms with.  In the moment, they were convinced they were special and in a real relationship.  I mean he had a wedding with James.  Goodness.

[Robert Lynch]

I wondered how part 2 would end tomorrow.

[ruby24]

I wonder if he molested Macauley Culkin. That seems like it would have been such a HUGE risk at that time and yet he was probably arrogant enough to think he could do it. And Culkin came from such a troubled family as well, with awful stage parents. Given all the problems he had later in life (although many child stars have problems anyway), I can imagine he would have responded to MJ's style of grooming. Shudder.

Edited March 4, 2019 by ruby24

[spaceghostess]

I'm halfway through part I and seriously doubt I can handle watching the second part tonight. It's incredibly depressing how easy it was for Jackson to groom these boys' parents, much less their kids. Children are vulnerable, duh; parents are supposed to be on guard for predators. These people were so dazzled by celebrity, they forgot what was safe and normal for their kids? I'm not saying it's unbelievable; I'm just getting so angry watching the mothers reminisce about how much they were enjoying Neverland (and Paris, and wherever else) while their kids were having sleepovers with a grown man. I stopped to write this at the point when Wade's mom describes how they decided it would be fine to leave him behind at Neverland while the rest of the family went RV-ing to the Grand Canyon. What in the ever-loving fuck is that all about? I can't conceive of doing something like that. And yes, I'm being judgemental. I don't care;  I just can't with that kind of idiocy.

I share custody of my two sons with their father, who's a master of irresponsibility and benign neglect. I'm the custodial parent, but only by an extra 24 hours per week (I went to trial to fight for more, but our moronic family court judge chose to ignore testimony from two social workers who agreed with me). In any event, while their father isn't abusive, he's not trustworthy as far as actually being present with the kids and tuned in to their needs. The "babysitter" he uses (when he doesn't just leave the boys by themselves) once left them sitting alone in a studio locker room while she took a yoga class. They told me and I was all over it. Never happened again, but that's the kind of thing I have to worry about and follow up on ALL THE TIME. He also never pays people--like the babysitter--but rather makes all sorts of weird "barter" arrangements and used to have them taking Ubers by themselves until I found out and put the kibosh on it. There's very little  I can do about any of these situations, except be aware of them, follow up legally whenever possible, and, most importantly, be the parent who gives them stability and always has their backs. You can bet I ask my kids a hell of a lot of questions about who they see, what they do, and where they go when with their father. If I heard one word about them being in bed with ANY adult it would be dealt with YESTERDAY.

It's totally gross--and unsurprising--that the Jacksons are dropping concerts as a shiny object to distract fans. I guess the ones who prefer living with their heads up their asses will enjoy them.

Edited March 4, 2019 by spaceghostess
Edited per info on the fathers from Simon Boccanegra

[Simon Boccanegra]

3 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

I'm just getting so angry watching the mothers (apparently the fathers had nothing to say?)

Both Robson's father and Safechuck's are no longer with us, unfortunately. Suicide, in both cases. 

[spaceghostess]

Just now, Simon Boccanegra said:

Both Robson's father and Safechuck's are no longer with us, unfortunately. Suicide, in both cases. 

God, how awful. Like those kids didn't have enough to deal with. 😞

[qtpye]

45 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

Both Robson's father and Safechuck's are no longer with us, unfortunately. Suicide, in both cases. 

Holy shit...I think the kid who first came forth with the accusations and Michael settled with him out of court also had his father commit suicide.

55 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

I'm halfway through part I and seriously doubt I can handle watching the second part tonight. It's incredibly depressing how easy it was for Jackson to groom these boys' parents, much less their kids. Children are vulnerable, duh; parents are supposed to be on guard for predators. These people were so dazzled by celebrity, they forgot what was safe and normal for their kids? I'm not saying it's unbelievable; I'm just getting so angry watching the mothers reminisce about how much they were enjoying Neverland (and Paris, and wherever else) while their kids were having sleepovers with a grown man. I stopped to write this at the point when Wade's mom describes how they decided it would be fine to leave him behind at Neverland while the rest of the family went RV-ing to the Grand Canyon. What in the ever-loving fuck is that all about? I can't conceive of doing something like that. And yes, I'm being judgemental. I don't care;  I just can't with that kind of idiocy.

I share custody of my two sons with their father, who's a master of irresponsibility and benign neglect. I'm the custodial parent, but only by an extra 24 hours per week (I went to trial to fight for more, but our moronic family court judge chose to ignore testimony from two social workers who agreed with me). In any event, while their father isn't abusive, he's not trustworthy as far as actually being present with the kids and tuned in to their needs. The "babysitter" he uses (when he doesn't just leave the boys by themselves) once left them sitting alone in a studio locker room while she took a yoga class. They told me and I was all over it. Never happened again, but that's the kind of thing I have to worry about and follow up on ALL THE TIME. He also never pays people--like the babysitter--but rather makes all sorts of weird "barter" arrangements and used to have them taking Ubers by themselves until I found out and put the kibosh on it. There's very little  I can do about any of these situations, except be aware of them, follow up legally whenever possible, and, most importantly, be the parent who gives them stability and always has their backs. You can bet I ask my kids a hell of a lot of questions about who they see, what they do, and where they go when with their father. If I heard one word about them being in bed with ANY adult it would be dealt with YESTERDAY.

It's totally gross--and unsurprising--that the Jacksons are dropping concerts as a shiny object to distract fans. I guess the ones who prefer living with their heads up their asses will enjoy them.

It is shocking how they were so seduced by the lifestyle that they were turning a blind eye to the total inappropriateness of the behavior. Robson’s mother almost seemed more disappointed in her son being “replaced” than by the fact that this weirdo was having private slumber parties alone with her son. 

[Simon Boccanegra]

27 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Holy shit...I think the kid who first came forth with the accusations and Michael settled with him out of court also had his father commit suicide.

Yes.  Evan Chandler, father of Jordan, the boy of the 1993-94 case.. Evan Chandler killed himself later the year that MJ died.  

My only source on the elder Safechuck's suicide is Maureen Orth's Vanity Fair piece linked above in this thread. I'm beginning to wonder now if she put "Jimmy Safechuck" in error, when she meant "Wade Robson." Here's how it reads at present:  

9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Jimmy Safechuck, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time.

She had opened with a paragraph about Dennis Robson's conflicting stories and eventual death by suicide. 

Edited March 4, 2019 by Simon Boccanegra

[Armchair Critic]

MJ also isolated the mothers from the fathers to ruin their relationship, therefore making it easier for him to get to the boys. He is partially responsible for the suicides of the fathers.

[biakbiak]

What a load of horseshit.

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

I'm halfway through part I and seriously doubt I can handle watching the second part tonight. It's incredibly depressing how easy it was for Jackson to groom these boys' parents, much less their kids. Children are vulnerable, duh; parents are supposed to be on guard for predators. These people were so dazzled by celebrity, they forgot what was safe and normal for their kids? I'm not saying it's unbelievable; I'm just getting so angry watching the mothers reminisce about how much they were enjoying Neverland (and Paris, and wherever else) while their kids were having sleepovers with a grown man. I stopped to write this at the point when Wade's mom describes how they decided it would be fine to leave him behind at Neverland while the rest of the family went RV-ing to the Grand Canyon. What in the ever-loving fuck is that all about? I can't conceive of doing something like that. And yes, I'm being judgemental. I don't care;  I just can't with that kind of idiocy.

I share custody of my two sons with their father, who's a master of irresponsibility and benign neglect. I'm the custodial parent, but only by an extra 24 hours per week (I went to trial to fight for more, but our moronic family court judge chose to ignore testimony from two social workers who agreed with me). In any event, while their father isn't abusive, he's not trustworthy as far as actually being present with the kids and tuned in to their needs. The "babysitter" he uses (when he doesn't just leave the boys by themselves) once left them sitting alone in a studio locker room while she took a yoga class. They told me and I was all over it. Never happened again, but that's the kind of thing I have to worry about and follow up on ALL THE TIME. He also never pays people--like the babysitter--but rather makes all sorts of weird "barter" arrangements and used to have them taking Ubers by themselves until I found out and put the kibosh on it. There's very little  I can do about any of these situations, except be aware of them, follow up legally whenever possible, and, most importantly, be the parent who gives them stability and always has their backs. You can bet I ask my kids a hell of a lot of questions about who they see, what they do, and where they go when with their father. If I heard one word about them being in bed with ANY adult it would be dealt with YESTERDAY.

It's totally gross--and unsurprising--that the Jacksons are dropping concerts as a shiny object to distract fans. I guess the ones who prefer living with their heads up their asses will enjoy them.

I also kind of notice that the mothers were two fairly attractive women who had married fairly shlubby looking, maybe older guys. I am sure they were living vicariously through their sons and waving away any misgivings because they wanted this life. Robson's older brother even said that Michael Jackson's invitation to LA was a good way for his mother to leave her marriage.

The stories eerily reminded me of what I read about Henry the VIII. How he seemed to grow obsessed with a woman, only to easily put her aside or even behead her once he found his shiny new plaything.

[Blakeston]

As much as the mothers' behavior seems inexplicable, I find it a whole lot easier to understand than the mothers who did the same thing after the molestation scandal broke.

I think people were really conditioned in the 80s and early 90s to think of child molesters as fire-breathing monsters whose grotesque creepiness would be immediately apparent. And MJ's image at that point was extremely clean-cut, and deeply intertwined with helping children.

I have no doubt that it seemed like an incredible opportunity for those kids to stay at Neverland Ranch, and the kids would probably have hated their mothers if they'd kept them away.

None of that excuses them allowing their kids to sleep in MJ's bed, obviously. But I see a difference between them and the parents who let their kids hang out with MJ after the scandal broke, who must have been straight-up pimping out their children.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Blakeston

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

My only source on the elder Safechuck's suicide is Maureen Orth's Vanity Fair piece linked above in this thread. I'm beginning to wonder now if she put "Jimmy Safechuck" in error, when she meant "Wade Robson." Here's how it reads at present:  

Yeah, I think that's an error. It was definitely Wade and Jordan's fathers who killed themselves. 

8 hours ago, druzy said:

The MJ defenders are out in full force on Twitter.

I looked at the comments after the show aired and noped out after reading about a page worth's of insane conspiracy theories. His estate must spend countless millions on whatever bot farms they employ to spread their nutty lies.

I was struck by something I think Dan Reed said to Wade—it was something to the effect of calling Michael his "lover," which, in fact, is a complete mischaracterization. Michael was his rapist, above all else. Wade was in no position as a child to take on a "lover." 

Looking forward to what Oprah has to present after Part 2 ends tonight. 

[Robert Lynch]

You think MJ was closeted most of his life? I know the fans would say he was straight, but you had to remember that even though he brought Brooke Sheilds as his date to the Grammy Awards back in 1984, he took Emmanuel Lewis for the ride as well. I wondered if Joe's upbringing caused MJ to be severely damaged beyond control.

I am not defending MJ to what he did to James and Wade, but I wondered how badly  damaged he was that he had to resort to a pedo all of a sudden. And nearly every musician had homosexual experiences, like David Bowie, Mick Jagger, Joan Jett, Grace Slick, and so forth..It is not like they are predators or whatever. Their experience was within their age group. But MJ was always a strange case itself when it came to his sexuality. It is just that it involved children.

[Simon Boccanegra]

Another thing I find creepy -- now especially -- is that the favored kid of the moment was so often made over into a mini-me. You see Thriller-era photos and he'll be with a boy in a red jacket and a single glove. The Victory-era kids have his sequined-ambassador look. In the photo visible a couple times in this thread, the boy has been made to look like "Smooth Criminal"-era Michael. Their own fragile identities were eradicated.  

I really do not remember seeing the now-infamous Pepsi "dressing room" commercial when it was a current ad, the one with the young James Safechuck, but I think I would have found it "off" just on its own merits, not even knowing what the child actor in the commercial would later claim. The boy is portrayed as being fascinated by Michael's personal effects and private world rather than the music or the concert. Then the eventual face-to-face encounter looks nearly flirtatious. Maybe I'm just viewing it with inevitable hindsight, but it's a completely different vibe from what I remember in other "kid meets idol" ads, like the Coke commercial with the football player Joe Greene.  

10 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I wonder if he molested Macauley Culkin. That seems like it would have been such a HUGE risk at that time and yet he was probably arrogant enough to think he could do it.

Something I read this morning made a good point: it's quite possible he was different with boys such as Culkin and Emmanuel Lewis, versus some kid whose dad was a sanitation worker. If Jackson had any pragmatism about hiim, he'd know it would be harder and steeper to pay off parents of children who were already getting millions. Culkin had received $4.5 million in early-'90s money just for appearing in Home Alone 2.  

2 hours ago, Robert Lynch said:

And nearly every musician had homosexual experiences, like David Bowie, Mick Jagger, Joan Jett, Grace Slick, and so forth..It is not like they are predators or whatever. Their experience was within their age group. But MJ was always a strange case itself when it came to his sexuality. It is just that it involved children.

Well...not to widen the net too much, but a lot of male rock legends have been credibly alleged to have had sex with underage girls, in the hedonistic '70s and '80s. Jimmy Page and David Bowie both apparently had relations with Lori Maddox when she was 14-15.  Don Henley had a big hit song about what a raw deal he felt he got from the media when an underage girl was found overdosed at his house. He denied a sexual relationship, and got off with the lesser charge of contributing to the delinquency of a minor. If that happened today, he would probably be through. It was a different world.  

Edited March 4, 2019 by Simon Boccanegra

[qtpye]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/celebrity/oprah-winfrey-says-she-knows-shell-be-criticized-for-hosting-after-neverland-interview/ar-BBUiCAZ?li=BBnb7Kz

[Robert Lynch]

6 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

Another thing I find creepy -- now especially -- is that the favored kid of the moment was so often made over into a mini-me. You see Thriller-era photos and he'll be with a kid in a red jacket and a single glove. The Victory-era kids have his sequined-ambassador look. In the photo visible a couple times in this thread, the boy has been made to look like "Smooth Criminal"-era Michael. Their own fragile identities were eradicated.  

I really do not remember seeing the now-infamous Pepsi "dressing room" commercial when it was a current ad, the one with the young James Safechuck, but I think I would have found it "off" just on its own merits, not even knowing what the child actor in the commercial would later claim. The kid is portrayed as being fascinated by Michael's personal effects and private world rather than the music or the concert. Then the eventual face-to-face encounter looks nearly flirtatious. Maybe I'm just viewing this with inevitable hindsight, but it's a completely different vibe from what I remember in other famous "kid meets idol" ads, like the Coke ad with the football player Joe Greene.  

Something I read this morning made a good point: it's quite possible he was different with boys such as Culkin and Emmanuel Lewis, versus some kid whose dad was a sanitation worker. If Jackson had any pragmatism about hiim, he'd know it would be harder and steeper to pay off parents of kids who were already getting millions. Culkins had received $4.5 million in early-'90s money just for appearing in Home Alone 2.  

Well...not to widen the net too much, but a lot of male rock legends have been credibly alleged to have had sex with underage girls, in the hedonistic '70s and '80s. Jimmy Page and David Bowie both apparently had relations with Lori Maddox when she was 14-15.  Don Henley had a big hit song about what a raw deal he felt he got from the media when an underage girl was found overdosed at his house. He denied a sexual relationship, and got off with the lesser charge of contributing to the delinquency of a minor. If that happened today, he would probably be through. It was a different world.  

You know, I forgotten about that, too. Thanks for the info.

[jenrising]

10 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

I don't know if anyone else watched Abducted in Plain Sight on Netflix,

I was thinking the same thing about Abducted in Plain Sight. 

Spoiler

Even down to the way the mothers talk now about Michael. Like their lost love. The same way Mary Ann did. It's horrifying but so similar. 

[qtpye]

10 minutes ago, jenrising said:

I was thinking the same thing about Abducted in Plain Sight. 

  Hide contents

Even down to the way the mothers talk now about Michael. Like their lost love. The same way Mary Ann did. It's horrifying but so similar. 

https://slate.com/culture/2019/03/leaving-neverland-mothers-joy-robson-michael-jackson.html

This article examines how the mothers are portrayed in the documentary.

[jenrising]

14 minutes ago, qtpye said:

https://slate.com/culture/2019/03/leaving-neverland-mothers-joy-robson-michael-jackson.html

This article examines how the mothers are portrayed in the documentary.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to vilify the mothers. They were seduced as well. Manipulated so well that to this day they can't help but remember him fondly in part. That's what abusers do. You can still love someone who hurts you terribly. 

[dcubed]

11 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

Macauley Culkin and Brett Barnes (who can continue to issue their denials but I'll never not believe they wasn't treated the same way as Gavin, Jordan, Jimmy, and Wade).

I have no doubt that MJ was a pedophile.  I think it is wrong to project what we think is the "truth" on others, especially potential victims.  It is not for us to call them out and demand the truth.  It is their truth, their experience and their story to tell if they want to.  Pedophiles do pick and choose.  We don't know much about Brett or how involved his parents were.  Mac was extremely popular in his own right.  Molesters don't molest every one they come in contact with (substitute the word rapist and it might make more sense).  Pedos know how to pick and choose victims that will remain silent and are easily manipulated. 

If Brett and Mac say they were not victims, I believe them just as I believe those that say they were.  I say this kindly.  I understand the outrage.  I want all his victims to come forward.  I want the parents to be charged with child neglect and endangerment.  But I don't want to "drag the truth" out of someone that does not wish to share or maybe even hurt the case by including people as victims that might not have been.  I think there are enough out there around.  Like what happened after the R Kelly series, I think the floodgates will open with many more victims coming forward.  I hope this documentary gives them the courage to do so with the hopes of peace and strength as the end result. 

Edited March 4, 2019 by dcubed

[msrachelj]

9 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

Both Robson's father and Safechuck's are no longer with us, unfortunately. Suicide, in both cases. 

what the fuck is wrong with both those mothers? especially the one without the artificial clown colored hair? smiling and outright laughing while telling the stories? yours sons were raped! how can you talk about all this and react that way? no tears, no frowns, no anger. just what.. the... fuck! i could barely concentrate on anything else in doc. because i couldn't stop thinking what unfit parents these were. sorry. i'm judgmental too. there is no excuse for leaving your 7 or 10 year old sons with a man who is a stranger. to SLEEP IN HIS BED. and then you go off on adventures for the day or week. celebrity or not. and the australian one who up and left her family? michael was a monster. the parents were blinded by $$$ and the poor boys suffered. 

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, Robert Lynch said:

You think MJ was closeted most of his life? I know the fans would say he was straight, but you had to remember that even though he brought Brooke Sheilds as his date to the Grammy Awards back in 1984, he took Emmanuel Lewis for the ride as well. I wondered if Joe's upbringing caused MJ to be severely damaged beyond control.

I am not defending MJ to what he did to James and Wade, but I wondered how badly  damaged he was that he had to resort to a pedo all of a sudden. And nearly every musician had homosexual experiences, like David Bowie, Mick Jagger, Joan Jett, Grace Slick, and so forth..It is not like they are predators or whatever. Their experience was within their age group. But MJ was always a strange case itself when it came to his sexuality. It is just that it involved children.

I'm not sure how musicians having gay experiences with other adults relates to Michael Jackson. But I would definitely agree that Joe's upbringing is what caused MJ to turn out the way he did. Joe denied his son a childhood, and that stopped him from ever mentally maturing beyond childhood.

At the end of the day, even if Michael was so warped that he truly believed that his sexual relationships with these boys were healthy and normal, he's still a vicious person for casually disposing of the boys the way that he did once they reached a certain age. The love and kindness and caring was all an act.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Blakeston

[funky-rat]

Grr...the quote feature isn't working for me again.

I don't believe he did anything to any of the celebrity kids he hung out with.  That would be incredibly stupid, as they would be seen as credible if they told on him, and served as an alibi of sorts for him - kids he could trot out that had name power who would sing his praises.  Poor kids who were not famous and came from possibly sketchy homes would be another story altogether.  As you can see, many don't believe them, and it's easy to beg it off as nonsense coming from a damaged kid, etc.

I read a statement from Corey Feldman, who has made accusations about being molested in the past.  I don't recall the exact wording, but it boiled down to MJ didn't do anything to him, and he'd like to think he didn't do anything to any kids, he can't say for sure it never happened.