S07.E11: Past Sins

[Lady Calypso]

Quote

DAVID RAMSEY DIRECTS HIS FIRST EPISODE OF ARROW — The past comes back to haunt both Oliver (Stephen Amell) and Laurel (Katie Cassidy). Curtis (Echo Kellum) is upset when he discovers that Diggle (David Ramsey) and Lyla (guest star Audrey Marie Anderson) have restarted The Ghost Initiative with Diaz (guest star Kirk Acevedo), China White (guest star Kelly Hu), Kane Wolfman (guest star Liam Hall) and Carrie Cutter (guest star Amy Gumenick). David Ramsey directed the episode written by Onalee Hunter Hughes & Tonya Kong (#711). Original airdate 1/28/2019.

[ladylaw99]

I have no idea what I just watched

I was so bored

[apinknightmare]

Tired of Oliver having an identity crisis every week. 

No thanks to Laurel and Felicity's friendship going 10,000 mph to BFF ville this week. It's not much of a redemption story when the being good comes so easy. 

I wish Curtis had really died. 

I hope Stan kills someone I hate. 

 

/fin

[insomniadreams88]

Bored again. Wish they hadn't had Felicity there for Laurel when she should've been there for Oliver and we were stuck with Oliver/Dinah scenes.

Don't even get me started on the ARGUS/Curtis/Diggle stuff. They teased what I want -- Curtis gone, in some way, I'll take just leaving SC for good, but whatever -- and took it away. 

Yes, it's sad what happened to E2-LL's father, but they need to not forget all the people she killed. Felicity even brought them up! 

Oh, and I'll be shocked if Felicity doesn't create the Archer Program. (Also, she better do it all on her own. No help from anyone else.) 

[JJ928]

Ok so that stalker has to be Stanley, right? Other than that little bit this ep was boring. Honestly, I was hoping to see something of Earth 2, what's the point of this story line if you're not gonna do it? I really need Felicity to start her company, but I guess I should be happy she was allowed out of the house. Also, I hate Dinah, she gets on my last nerve. This is not a good way to come back from hiatus, with 2 lack luster eps.

[BkWurm1]

I'm frustrated with how Oliver and Felicity are being written now that he is out of jail.  The separate storylines made sense when they weren't together but as much as I love them as a couple, I NEED them to be partners in this saving the city thing and working together on any case or problem.  Felicity feels like she's been bumped from the team.  She's the wife role now.  It comes with her helping Oliver once or twice on the side, but she's not really part of his world any more and it sucks and it needs to stop right now.  

[calliope1975]

I hope Stan's the stalker and starts thinning the herd. Oh wait, Dinah's in the FF'd. Dammit. 

Curtis' speechifying makes me think of reality shows and how they always focus on the person who gets eliminated that episode. Does the timeline of this ep match up with KA's

Spoiler

bragging about killing a fave? Was he trolling and it doesn't stick? 

It's hard to get excited about a show when the lead looks a mix of bored, resigned, and slightly irritated. I feel you, Steve. 

I don't have anything nice to say about BS' plot other than EBR is really pretty. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by calliope1975

[tennisgurl]

We were so close to the end of Curtis! SO CLOSE!! 

So Felicity and Oliver get a whole, what, two scenes together after their traumatic separation? I guess Oliver was busy being guilt trip for stuff that wasn't his fault and watching the city he has given everything for turn their back on him (AGAIN) and Felicity playing cheerleader to her favorite serial killer (AGAIN!) to spend any time together! 

Bleh.

[calliope1975]

Beth has really bought into the party line of Oliver must suffer and be blamed and blame himself for everything forever and always. It's so limiting as a story.

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, calliope1975 said:

I don't have anything nice to say about BS' plot other than EBR is really pretty.

I might not have minded that plot if Oliver's plot wasn't so emotionally heavy again.  Felicity literally dashes off in the middle of a discussion about it.  And then Dinah plays partner instead.  To be clear, there is nothing romantic between them, but her lines were pretty much what they would have had Felicity say if she's been allowed to be there.  I suspect just about anytime Laurel is on I can expect them now to coop Felicity to try and make her work.  

[Mary0360]

I hope Oliver and Felicity stretch well before doing all that heavy lifting!

[BkWurm1]

5 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Tired of Oliver having an identity crisis every week.

And what was that "Go ahead and kill me if you need to" crap?  That's some pretty regressive shit.  Oliver has a son and a wife and WANTS to live.  Or are we to think that he's kind of depressed and resigned that he's going to die soon anyway because of whatever secret deal he made with the Monitor?  What if SA is making Oliver seem depressed and glum on purpose?  

[lemotomato]

With this episode, Tonya K has achieved what no other show writer has: a spot on my “under no circumstances will I ever watch anything this writer is involved with” list. Congrats, Tonya! 

[BkWurm1]

On the positive side, I didn't notice anything really off about the directing choices and I understood Diaz better than I can every remember so good for DR.  

[KenyaJ]

The writers need to understand that Redemption via Friendship with Felicity is not redemption. Redemption only comes when someone takes responsibility for their actions, suffers consequences for them, and resolves to be different. It’s amazing that in the same episode where Oliver stresses the importance of transparency and not telling lies, Laurel is still pretending to be someone she’s not, lying to the entire city, but we’re supposed to believe she’s good now!

I’m not even going to get into the ridiculous of Felicity acknowledging all the people that Laurel killed, but handwaving it because . . . reasons!  God, I barely even recognized her tonight. I hate that my favorite character’s characterization is suffering for the sake of this unearned OOC friendship. 

And that’s all I’ve got, because this episode was a tedious, stupid mess. Tonya Kong is a complete hack. I feel bad that DR’s directorial debut was wasted on that crap. 

[Mary0360]

Just now, lemotomato said:

With this episode, Tonya K has achieved what no other show writer has: a spot on my “under no circumstances will I ever watch anything this writer is involved with” list. Congrats, Tonya! 

I do find it sort of funny though that it seems like they brought in a writer specifically to write BS storylines. Like do the other writers not care enough? 

[JamieLynn832002]

I think I may actualy like Curtis more than Dig right now. This is terrible. Don't get me wrong, Curtis still sucks and I was still happy when he 'died' but he's not orchestrating a plan that involves the potential release of multiple people who want to kill his best friends so he wins. I want the real John Diggle back, I hate this one!

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

With this episode, Tonya K has achieved what no other show writer has: a spot on my “under no circumstances will I ever watch anything this writer is involved with” list. Congrats, Tonya! 

I really should have known Tonya was writing.  

[Primal Slayer]

It was an ok episode but Olivers plot was extra boring because the bad guy was lame. They should've just combined Oliver and Laurels storylines, she could've sworn that it was someone from E2 and there ya go. 

I am happy that they FINALLY addressed that E1 Laurel was BC and that Star City actually thinks something about her being DA. Though the interviewer should've asked her her thoughts on someone else taking up the mantle, could've lead to some good Dinah drag. As always I love me some Lauricity, I just wish that they had a longer scene at the bar with them relaxing and just hanging out instead of getting into the drama of it all. I am confused though...I thought she killed E2 guy but she didnt? And you give us the quickest glimpse of E2 I got whiplash. If you aint gonna go at least half way in dont go in at all. It still didnt show us her becoming Black Siren. It's like seeing the boat crash and BAM! Oliver is Green Arrow. We dont need 5 years of flashbacks but I need at least a good 10mins if not an entire episode. I hope this puts an end to the constant "is she or isnt she" that Beth and co. like to talk about. Have her struggle with being "good" but dont just have her become a flat out villain again. But I guess the end of the episode (that of course had to center on Dinah) means that the drunk guy wasnt sending Laurel all those messages?

The Ghost Initiative....centered to much around Curtis. Should've just ripped off SS and introduce each villain and show a cool montage of them being at their best. 

[apinknightmare]

Just now, Primal Slayer said:

But I guess the end of the episode (that of course had to center on Dinah) means that the drunk guy wasnt sending Laurel all those messages?

Pretty sure it was Stan.

[Mary0360]

1 minute ago, KenyaJ said:

The writers need to understand that Redemption via Friendship with Felicity is not redemption. Redemption only comes when someone takes responsibility for their actions, suffers consequences for them, and resolves to be different. It’s amazing that in the same episode where Oliver stresses the importance of transparency and not telling lies, Laurel is still pretending to be someone she’s not, lying to the entire city, but we’re supposed to believe she’s good now!

I’m not even going to get into the ridiculous of Felicity acknowledging all the people that Laurel killed, but handwaving it because . . . reasons!  God, I barely even recognized her tonight. I hate that my favorite character’s characterization is suffering for the sake of this unearned OOC friendship. 

And that’s all I’ve got, because this episode was a tedious, stupid mess. Tonya Kong is a complete hack. I feel bad that DR’s directorial debut was wasted on that crap. 

I look at characters like Cole Turner on Charmed or Spike on Buffy or Benjamin Linus on LOST who all had engaging redemption story lines that got the audience invested but didn't dramatically change the character over night and have them become everyone's best friend. There's a way to have Siren go on a redemption journey that would be far more interesting and challenging and would actually get the audience to root for her more then using the I Dream of Genie blink power to magically turn her into a saint just because.

 

It honestly feels like the writers have just decided: "We've got Katie in a contract. We have to use her for something. I see people want her redeemed. Whatever. I don't care either way to be honest. Let's just say she's redeemed and move on." 

[lemotomato]

17 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

I’m not even going to get into the ridiculous of Felicity acknowledging all the people that Laurel killed, but handwaving it because . . . reasons!  God, I barely even recognized her tonight. I hate that my favorite character’s characterization is suffering for the sake of this unearned OOC friendship. 

And that’s all I’ve got, because this episode was a tedious, stupid mess. Tonya Kong is a complete hack.

The episode was basically a self-insert fanfic with BS super fan Tonya using Felicity as her avatar. 

[Lantern7]

Heh. Curtis basically owned Diaz. Diaz broke out, broke out the other members of Suicide Squad Ghost Initiative, whupped on ARGUS agents, snapped Curtis's neck . . . and it was all a VR scam from Curtis. That was funny.

I was mostly ambivalent. Funny idea of Laurel-2 having a stalker from "home." Of course, an overwrought origin story is involved, which explains a lot of Laurel-2. She's still a bitch, though.

It took Oliver over a decade to realize there might have been fallout from his dad shooting that one guy?

I suck at paying attention. WTF is Stan?

[Genki]

50 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

It honestly feels like the writers have just decided: "We've got Katie in a contract. We have to use her for something. I see people want her redeemed. Whatever. I don't care either way to be honest. Let's just say she's redeemed and move on." 

That sums up how they have dealt with KC for years...just look at her Black Canary story.

I'm concerned that because Lance (her previous best scene partner) is gone, and the scenes with EBR are pretty tolerable, compared to the last 6 seasons of KC on Arrow, plus Katie is finally acting in her wheelhouse, they will make EBR her main scene partner constantly. It's annoying how much Oliver and Felicity are split to make Dinah and BS relevant.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Genki
Siren=/= Canary

[mxc90]

 Laurel is the most popular DA in the past 10 years? 77% wants Oliver to step down? What's in the Star City drinking water? I would move out of town so fast and never look back.

 Did Kate Cassidy get more "work" done?

I fell for the fake and cheered when Curtis died!

[Mary0360]

3 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

 

I suck at paying attention. WTF is Stan?

Olivers prison friend who he saved only to find out the guy's a looney toon.

Just now, mxc90 said:

 Laurel is the most popular DA in the past 10 years? 77% wants Oliver to step down? What's in the Star City drinking water? I would move out of town so fast and never look back.

And yet the writers want us to think Felicity is a villain for wanting to decimate Star City? You're doing a piss poor job #teamFelicity #burnstarcitytotheground

[apinknightmare]

11 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

I suck at paying attention. WTF is Stan?

Stanley is Oliver's little serial killer friend from prison. 

[tennisgurl]

Felicity suddenly being besties with Black Siren, even knowing she is a multiple murderer, is just so disturbing to me, and so out of character. She even acknowledged her multiple murders, that she never feels bad about, and its just glanced over like its nothing. And she gets some big sob story because her dad died, and thats supposed to make everything alright? Her being a col blooded killer for years makes everything all better? Just because has has currently stopped murdering people doesent make her a good guy for no reason, nor does just looking like their friend! She hasn't really had a redemption arc, or tried to make things right with the people she hurt (except a quick apology to Dinah for killing her boyfriend) or even seemed to feel particularly bad about her previous murders. They just waved their magic wand, and "now your a hero! Because we said so!" and expected us to all get on board. 

I mean, I guess fuck all those victims of BS and their grieving families, we can all be happy that some guy who looks like some guy who accidentally killed Not Laurels dad is in jail for minor offenses! Hurrah! Feel bad for her, dont think about the sons and daughters of HER victims she killed in cold blood! Dont think about them!

Meanwhile, Oliver gets yet another guilt trip, and gets to get treated like shit by his city for the billionth time. I do appreciate them having some actual continuity from way back in season one with the son of the guy Robert killed coming back for vengeance, but it was mainly used so Oliver can beat himself up more. I would think his wife would be there to comfort him, but she is off giving pep talks to our friendly neighborhood psychopath. I especially dont know why Emiko is so pissed at him. He didnt even know she existed! Oliver has done plenty of bone headed things before, dont blame him for the stuff he actually didnt do! And 77% of Star City wants him gone? 77%!? You would think him saving the city from blowing up about 30 times a year would make people a bit more appreciative, but apparently not! These are really the people who Oliver has given up so much for? Are they worth it Ollie? People that turn on you over one stupid video? 

I hate agreeing with Curtis over Diggle, I freaking hate it. But, John is being a total idiot. Back when the Suicide Squad started ages ago, John was its biggest critic, and he was horrified by the way they treated human beings, who were even capable of decency, but now he is all for it. For some reason. I can just see him rolling ARGUS closer and closer to the ARGUS fascist world from LoT, and I hate it. I wanted ARGUS to become full on bad guys, but I didnt want DIGGLE to be the Big Bad! I did like seeing some of the old villains, especially my girl Cupid! Even if it didnt happen. Or something.

Now at least I can think about Curtis getting his neck snapped, or Mumbles looking confused and stupid. I can think of those images when they are too annoying to even deal with. 

Better than last week, and DRs directing was pretty good, but it left much to be desired. Like, maybe less pointless newbies...

[Lantern7]

8 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

Olivers prison friend who he saved only to find out the guy's a looney toon.

 

Just now, apinknightmare said:

Stanley is Oliver's little serial killer friend from prison. 

Duuuuuurrrrrrrrr. Now it comes back to me. Thanks!

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Felicity suddenly being besties with Black Siren, even knowing she is a multiple murderer, is just so disturbing to me, and so out of character. She even acknowledged her multiple murders, that she never feels bad about, and its just glanced over like its nothing. And she gets some big sob story because her dad died, and thats supposed to make everything alright? Her being a col blooded killer for years makes everything all better? Just because has has currently stopped murdering people doesent make her a good guy for no reason, nor does just looking like their friend! She hasn't really had a redemption arc, or tried to make things right with the people she hurt (except a quick apology to Dinah for killing her boyfriend) or even seemed to feel particularly bad about her previous murders. They just waved their magic wand, and "now your a hero! Because we said so!" and expected us to all get on board. 

I mean, I guess fuck all those victims of BS and their grieving families, we can all be happy that some guy who looks like some guy who accidentally killed Not Laurels dad is in jail for minor offenses! Hurrah! Feel bad for her, dont think about the sons and daughters of HER victims she killed in cold blood! Dont think about them!

The saddest thing is that they accidentally created themselves some really meaty stuff to work with! A doppelgänger pretending to be her E-1 counterpart. Think of all the people who would know her since she's lived in the city her whole life, and think of all the bullshitting Laurel would have to do to sell her story! We get none of it. Someone who is not a lawyer pretending to be a lawyer. Think of the comedy gold you could dig from that if you wanted to! But they didn't want to. A person who had committed atrocious things who had the face of someone that all these people cared about. Imagine the stories you could've written about her trying to redeem herself for what she'd done and to become legit friends with these people. Nope, none for you! 

 

Lazy a-holes LMAO. To think that Tonya obviously cares the most about her and this is the garbage she spews. LOL.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I am confused though...I thought she killed E2 guy but she didnt? 

No, she did.  The man that she killed was found five years ago dead of undetermined causes on his porch.  She was the undetermined causes.  

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

hate agreeing with Curtis over Diggle, I freaking hate it. But, John is being a total idiot. Back when the Suicide Squad started ages ago, John was its biggest critic, and he was horrified by the way they treated human beings, who were even capable of decency, but now he is all for it. For some reason. I can just see him rolling ARGUS closer and closer to the ARGUS fascist world from LoT, and I hate it. I wanted ARGUS to become full on bad guys, but I didnt want DIGGLE to be the Big Bad! I did like seeing some of the old villains, especially my girl Cupid! Even if it didnt happen. Or something.

I do see the seeds of Curtis leaving to start his own foundation or something from this.  He wants to call the shots and the only way that's going to happen is if he's not at ARGUS.  Dude's getting on a bus soon I think.  

[olicityfan25]

21 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

 Laurel is the most popular DA in the past 10 years? 77% wants Oliver to step down? What's in the Star City drinking water? I would move out of town so fast and never look back.

 Did Kate Cassidy get more "work" done?

I fell for the fake and cheered when Curtis died!

It's just Tonya trying to make siren better than Oliver.

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Dude's getting on a bus soon I think.  

 

[quarks]

1. Clever plot twist with Diaz/Curtis, except for the mild problem that this meant that Diaz is STILL ON THE SHOW and NOT BLOWN UP which turned this from a clever plot twist to a sad plot twist, and, also, it was a bit difficult to get too involved with that plot when three separate and mostly unrelated plots were going on. Speaking of which -

2. Remember when this show tried to ensure that its various subplots were at least linked thematically and also by characters participating in more than one of them? Yes. That. Can we get back to that?

3. I keep thinking that on the bright side, Arrow's set issues can't get any worse, and then, we have tonight's episode. I know that this is about when they've historically needed to tighten the budget while preparing for February sweeps issues, but, for the love of all television gods, Arrow, can you kindly at the very least change the lighting a bit? Maybe that would help. Also, can you invest in more prop cars for next season so I don't have to see the same SUV three nights in a row?

4. Hi, Arrowverse! Three years ago you allowed an extra with a rather recognizable face to react to Oliver and Felicity discussing nighttime leather activities. Since then, she has had quite a career, appearing at Catco as both a board member AND a staff writer AND a party guest while ALSO working with the DEO while ALSO getting the occasional coffee over at Jitters while ALSO time travelling while ALSO working with the Time Bureau (ok I guess that one makes sense) and a few Star City events and now for no apparent reason whatsoever joining the Star City police force. I would not have noticed her if you had not gone out of your way to showcase her, but now that you have, can we get this extra's story? She's like the most fascinating person on all four shows right now! Is she travelling between worlds and times, just trying to keep an eye on Team Arrow and Team Flash? Are there three of her on Earth-1, and if so, why? How? Did she come over with Zoom? Is she a time relic? Enquiring minds want to know! Ok, just one enquiring mind, but still. Since we've now officially seen more of this extra than some of the recurring cast members, how about giving her a couple of lines and adding her to one of the shows? 

5. The amount of time I just spent typing on the last point kinda tells you the rest of my feelings on this episode, doesn't it?

[insomniadreams88]

The thing is, I’m pretty sure they could have had Oliver offer to leave the SCPD if even a single digit percentage of SC wanted him to. 

Or figured out a different reason for him to decide to part ways with the SCPD. 

[tennisgurl]

A long time ago, back when they were just sort of shopping around the idea of Black Siren being a good gal, I mentioned what I think of as the Get Out of Jail Free Card when it comes to redeeming a villain. Basically, this card existed to give audiences some reason for the villains evil ways that is understandable, and sympathetic to an audience, enough to make accepting them as a hero palatable. Like, n this franchise, you have Nyssa or Leoanard Snart, who were remorseless career criminals...but they were raised to be like that by their abusive parents who raised them to be villains, so when they start to become more morally ambiguous anti heroes, the audience can understand why they ended up the way they did. Or how they started to go more into how Mick Rory had actual mental health issues that drove him to burn things when he started to become a good guy, or how Deadshot was a vet with PTSD who felt that killing was all he could do anymore. That cant be the end of the redemption arc, they still need to actually work at showing remorse, admitting fault for their bad choices later on, actually be willing to suffer consequences, etc. before that redemption can fully happen, but before all of that, the writers can carefully slip the audience that little card to the audience, to build that sympathy in the audience, and give them a feeling of "well, they did bad things, but this also happened to them, so I can see how..." that can start that redemption quest, without it feeling like the audience is suddenly just slammed with "this bad guy is now good, deal with it!", it makes them not totally in control of their circumstances, so easier for the audience to understand.

The problem with Black Siren is, that card didnt really get played well for her. Yeah, they've tried to use the Dead Dad card, but its so disproportionate to her actual crimes, that it doesent really work. For someone who has done as many horrible things as Black Siren, she needs a REALLY impressive Get Out of Jail Free Card, and having her father die at 13, while sad, just isnt something that makes it seem like she was shoved unto her path to evil. Even if you felt those other characters redemptions didnt work, they made much more sense. I can see "my dad was a criminal, it was all I knew, so I became one too" as a sympathetic backstory that makes sense to how someone got to be the way they are then "my dad died and I felt guilt because he was getting me cake, so I become a hit woman who melts peoples brains for fun." It just doesent work! Not only is just focusing on an excuse for a villain being evil not enough reason for me to feel bad for them, thats all they seem to have! They havnt wanted to WORK at her being new Laurel, just...now she is, abd everything for her is awesome! Everyone giggles at her getting away with murder back on Earth 2 like its adorable! What?!?

[Mellowyellow]

Has Oliver left SCPD by the end of this ep?

I can't be bothered watching. 

[way2interested]

I laughed that even Beth's mom only texted Beth about Curtis' and Oliver's plots.

[JamieLynn832002]

With Laurel and Felicity, I can almost fanwank that because Felicity's in love with a man with a fairly high body count of his own she may feel like she has to give Laurel the benefit of the doubt if she's trying to reform. Especially since Laurel was the only person even a little bit in Oliver and Felicity's corner while he was in prison. But that only goes so far when Oliver has shown more guilt for killing evil people 6 years ago than Laurel has for killing innocent people last year. Everything about every relationship other than the ones betweeen Felicity/Oliver/Dig/Lyla (and to a certain extent Curtis since I can believe Oliver and Felicity would always be extremely grateful for her ability to walk and back when he gave a fuck about his best friends probably Dig too) is so unearned. We're supposed to believe these people are close because show says they are but they never give us a reason to believe that while piling on reasons to believe Oliver and Felicity shouldn't give these assholes the time of day.

[BkWurm1]

5 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Has Oliver left SCPD by the end of this ep?

I can't be bothered watching. 

No.  I'm sure the fickle peeps of Star City and the SCPD love him again for now.  

[Mary0360]

4 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 

The problem with Black Siren is, that card didnt really get played well for her. Yeah, they've tried to use the Dead Dad card, but its so disproportionate to her actual crimes, that it doesent really work. For someone who has done as many horrible things as Black Siren, she needs a REALLY impressive Get Out of Jail Free Card, and having her father die at 13, while sad, just isnt something that makes it seem like she was shoved unto her path to evil. Even if you felt those other characters redemptions didnt work, they made much more sense. I can see "my dad was a criminal, it was all I knew, so I became one too" as a sympathetic backstory that makes sense to how someone got to be the way they are then "my dad died and I felt guilt because he was getting me cake, so I become a hit woman who melts peoples brains for fun." It just doesent work! Not only is just focusing on an excuse for a villain being evil not enough reason for me to feel bad for them, thats all they seem to have! They havnt wanted to WORK at her being new Laurel, just...now she is, abd everything for her is awesome! Everyone giggles at her getting away with murder back on Earth 2 like its adorable! What?!?

The thing is the large portion of Laurels fan base basically want her redemption handwaved and seems to care less about how logical or even how invested the writing is in redeeming her then being able to say she's redeemed. They also seem to completely buy into a sad child sob story as being enough to justify her villainy and her inner goodness. So the writers aren't motivated to do more. Which is why they've written the storyline so lazy. 

[Writing Wrongs]

 Oliver Queen, Consulting Vigilante is boring as hell. I want to see the real Green Arrow doing Green Arrow shit. 

If Emiko hates everything Queen, then why is she going around dressed up like big bro?

I kept dozing during the Laurel stuff and am still not sure what was going on. But Katie got a new name added to hers. Awww.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Writing Wrongs

[quarks]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

A long time ago, back when they were just sort of shopping around the idea of Black Siren being a good gal, I mentioned what I think of as the Get Out of Jail Free Card when it comes to redeeming a villain. Basically, this card existed to give audiences some reason for the villains evil ways that is understandable, and sympathetic to an audience, enough to make accepting them as a hero palatable.  [snip]

The problem with Black Siren is, that card didnt really get played well for her. Yeah, they've tried to use the Dead Dad card, but its so disproportionate to her actual crimes, that it doesent really work. For someone who has done as many horrible things as Black Siren, she needs a REALLY impressive Get Out of Jail Free Card, and having her father die at 13, while sad, just isnt something that makes it seem like she was shoved unto her path to evil. 

This echoes the problem Arrow had with Laurel during season two: this could all be very sympathetic - on another show. Or in this case, shows.

But unfortunately, Not-Laurel and The Sad Case of the Undelivered Birthday Cake are on this show, where pretty much everyone has suffered from severe trauma. Just in this one episode alone Diaz had to run around with a bomb in his neck and was mentally manipulated (I'm not sorry, but still); a random reporter/talk show host was beaten up; three cops were briefly kidnapped; and we were reminded that the father of the Bad Guy of the Week was murdered and that Oliver watched his father murder someone else and commit suicide right in front of him. And again, all of that was just in this episode, and that's not counting Cupid's lingering trauma over Oliver. (sniffle) 

Add in that most of the characters in the other Arrowverse shows have also experienced severe trauma, in pretty much all cases far worse than an Undelivered Birthday Cake and a Dead Dad, and most went on to be heroes, and my heart strings can only be tugged so hard.

[tennisgurl]

14 minutes ago, quarks said:

Add in that most of the characters in the other Arrowverse shows have also experienced severe trauma, in pretty much all cases far worse than an Undelivered Birthday Cake and a Dead Dad, and most went on to be heroes, and my heart strings can only be tugged so hard.

Yeah, it become even more ridiculous that the Undelivered Birthday Cake and the Dead Dad backstory is treated as the most horrible and traumatic thing ever, and explains all of how she ended up being a remorseless killer, when almost every character in the Arrowverse, from the main characters to the one offs, have suffered just as much, or even worse, than her Dead Dad. Hell, this franchise collects dead relatives and lovers like playing cards, but most of the rest of the characters used that trauma to fuel their journeys to become heroes or were just trying to live their lives normally. Black Siren had one Dead Parent, and she apparently gets to do whatever, and its all excused? I mean, Oliver saw BOTH of his parents die in front of him, one by murder, and the other by suicide, as well as countless other people he cared about, but he still keeps trying to be a good guy, and doesent make excuses! If the "lose a parent=become a murderer for hire" thing was true for anyone who went through a trauma, this whole universe would be filled with psychopaths! 

[apinknightmare]

The guilt over the birthday cake thing could've definitely led to some self-hatred and bad decisions that I could see ultimately leading her into making some pretty terrible decisions! But I'm pretty sure her story ends there for us. She's forgiven, she's good now, all is well. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by apinknightmare

[thuganomics85]

Aww, they couldn't find a way to have Diaz's bomb accidentally go off and take both him and Curtis out?  I so feel bad for saying that since Curtis was actually in the right this go around, but those two are easily my least favorite characters on this show, and I was bored throughout all of it.  And once again, the show makes a mistake by also bring back past villains, because while they only had probably a minute of screen time total, the likes of Cupid and China White (why Kelly Hu doesn't get bigger roles, I have no idea) were way more entertaining in their brief moments compared to more of Diaz's mumbling threats and snarling.

Meanwhile, Felicity once again gets stuck tagging along in Laurel's story, where the show once again attempts this hilarious redemption tour, where, as usual, Laurel barely seems to even be trying to actually change and it's more someone else (in this case, Felicity) is like "Bad Laurel!  No killing!" and stopping her, but that apparently.... counts?  In comparison, Oliver is getting punished for something his dad did, and Oliver being Oliver naturally just piles it on all the other stuff he feels guilty for and believes he is a horrible person for (which at this rate, probably includes parking tickets and un-returned library books that he probably thinks are responsible for all of the evil in the world), and is even to let himself get shot for it.  The idea of redemption and morals is so weird on this show. 

At least Emiko has now into "she'll think about talking with Oliver" territory.  Even though she delivered that news by... talking with Oliver?

For that it is worth, David Ramsey actually did pretty good directing wise.  He was probably having way more fun getting to that then playing whatever excuse of a character Diggle has become this season.

This episode was an upgrade since it at least avoided the flash-forwards, but still pretty dull.

[Primal Slayer]

38 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

The thing is the large portion of Laurels fan base basically want her redemption handwaved and seems to care less about how logical or even how invested the writing is in redeeming her then being able to say she's redeemed. They also seem to completely buy into a sad child sob story as being enough to justify her villainy and her inner goodness. So the writers aren't motivated to do more. Which is why they've written the storyline so lazy. 

I doubt the writers are lazy because fans want a drive thru story. Laurel fans have wanted more for her since forever but they've always been fairly lazy with her story.

I have doubted that Quentin dying is the one thing that made Laurel become Black Siren but the writers are just lazy to think to outside the box. Quentin dying should be the catalyst that lead her down a darker path, she starts running with the wrong crowd, she isnt trying to wed Oliver Queen which makes their relationship better? he dies which leads her to running away from life which leads her to becoming a meta human which should lead to Zoom or some bad guy taking her under their wing and making her feel powerful and seduce her into the darkness.

But 22 episodes is just not enough for these writers (sarcasm) to flesh out characters in their show because they would rather introduce a whole new cast of characters and only focus on 2/3 of their main cast. 

[Soulfire]

 

 

 

 

 

 

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All taken from here.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Soulfire

[catrox14]

Who is this pod person they are turning Felicity into?  What a boring bad episode.  Katie Cassidy still can't act. 

[Chaser]

I’m trying to articulate my thoughts about how awful that BS backstory was but I can’t. It was sooo bad. That backstory would warrant a bad boyfriend and stealing cars, not melting brains and blowing up police stations. 

The Felicity and BS friendship? Throw it in the dumpster. It sort of worked in the beginning cause there was a snarky truth to it. This is ridiculous. Felicity assigning herself BS’s emotional support  animal is stupid. 

Since BS is officially done can she go now please?

Edited January 29, 2019 by Chaser