Quentin Lance: Winner of the Least Observant Detective Award

[Lisin]

I like Detective Lance a lot.

[Luisa]

I'm a little ashamed to say that I would have fizzled on this show a long time ago if I didn't love Paul Blackthorne. Like a lot. Like, too much. Waaaay too much.

My rational brain thinks he has Pierce potiential, especially down the road, but then my irrational brain sucker punches that brain in the brain gut and starts hysterically sobbing something about the Dresden Files.

 

[Kromm]

We can fanwank that he HAS to know that The Arrow is Ollie, because he DEFINITELY (at this point) knows that Sara is busy being a vigilante, that she's involved with Ollie, that he actively lied about her fate after the sinking ship, and that Black Canary pops up next to the Arrow all of the time now.  And that Felicity also works for Ollie but is part of Team Arrow, and that he's vaguely aware that the Arrow HAS enough of a team to mount a duplicate to make himself appear to be in two places at once.

So he knows--at least he has for the course of this season (at the very least since Sara first appeared)--and just doesn't acknowledge anything.

[Lisin]

I'm with you on the fanwankikng because really, he just HAS to know.

[Kromm]

I'm with you on the fanwankikng because really, he just HAS to know.

That move is called "The Gordon" (at least the comic book version in the 90s and 00s, where it became obvious he HAD to know Batman and Bruce Wayne were the same person).

[Carrie Ann]

Also, I'm pretty sure the Arrow and Canary walked away from Lance holding hands. So, I mean.... He knows.

[Danny Franks]

That move is called "The Gordon" (at least the comic book version in the 90s and 00s, where it became obvious he HAD to know Batman and Bruce Wayne were the same person).

Gordon did it in Batman: Year One as well. He clearly saw Batman unmasked, but claimed to be so blind without his glasses that he couldn't recognise the face that was about a yard away from him.

I'd really only be happy if it turns out that this is what Quentin has been doing. That he knows that Oliver is the Arrow, but just wants to maintain plausible deniability... and also, perhaps there's a lingering worry over what Oliver might do to anyone who discovers his identity. It's too dumb for him to genuinely not know. I understand that the writers apparently hate writing secret identity stuff, but if that's the case, then maybe they shouldn't be working on a show that has a masked vigilante with a secret identity as its central concept. Just a thought.

[Zalyn]

I'd really only be happy if it turns out that this is what Quentin has been doing. That he knows that Oliver is the Arrow, but just wants to maintain plausible deniability... and also, perhaps there's a lingering worry over what Oliver might do to anyone who discovers his identity. It's too dumb for him to genuinely not know. I understand that the writers apparently hate writing secret identity stuff, but if that's the case, then maybe they shouldn't be working on a show that has a masked vigilante with a secret identity as its central concept. Just a thought.

Agreed.  I really appreciate what Blackthorne is bringing to the character; even when Lance was fixated on hunting "The Hood," he still acknowledged that the black arrows were not his MO, and therefore should not be considered as evidence that he was there. His character has grown enough in these two seasons to be in a place where he could accept Oliver as Arrow. 

And I think it would do so much more respect for Lance's character if he got to do an "Of course I knew who you were, Oliver.  Do you think I'd have trusted you to save my daughters if I didn't?" (a la Helena) rather than a surprise reveal (a la Tommy or

Roy

).  I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the next episode!

[thuganomics85]

I really do hope that it ends up that Quentin knew who Ollie was for quite some time.  I just have problems buying that Quentin, of all people, has not put two and two together at this point, especially since, at one point, he even suspected Ollie was The Hood.

I honestly think Paul Blackthorne is one of the best actors on this show.  Some of the best "acting" moments I can think of came from him, especially when he sees Sara for the first time.  His reaction was just so impactful.  Not to mention, he was almost the only reason I didn't chunk something at the TV during Laurel's Downward Spiral arc.  He just sold Quentin's heartbreak over seeing his daughter ruin herself, and being powerless to stop it.  Really, he's been impressing me a lot this season.

Edited March 30, 2014 by thuganomics85

[BkWurm1]

Laurel's scenes with her dad where the only times I found her a believable character.

And let me second how wonderful PB reaction was to seeing Sara for the first time.  He didn't have to say a word and I completely understood how much she meant to him.  I got teary eyed.  I think Quentin is half the reason why I liked Sara so much. 

[pootlus]

Paul Blackthorne is indeed an excellent actor - I've loved him since The Dresden Files (which started unevenly but was so good in the last three episodes that I was absolutely gutted when they canned it).  He can sell heartbreak so well and was pretty much the sole redeeming factor in Laurel's so-called 'crucible' arc.

[jeannie]

My favorite scene with PB this year (so far) was the one where he's sitting with Laurel, explaining how he wants to have a family dinner and wants to try to win his wife back. He was just so damn charming and sweet, and as a bonus, I actually found Laurel fairly tolerable during that scene. I was legitimately pissed at his ex-wife for revealing that she has a boyfriend. Who on earth can resist Quentin Lance???

Also, he totally know that Oliver is the Arrow. He has to. He just has to.

[BkWurm1]

My favorite scene with PB this year (so far) was the one where he's sitting with Laurel, explaining how he wants to have a family dinner and wants to try to win his wife back. He was just so damn charming and sweet, and as a bonus, I actually found Laurel fairly tolerable during that scene.

 

Yeah, Laurel actually comes off well in most of her scenes with her dad.  Poor Quentin, he was so blindly happy thinking he could get his family back together.  His clueless assumptions kind of broke my heart.  Someone get him a love interest (one that doesn't turn evil or die)

Edited March 31, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Zalyn]

Actually, I think Quentin would feel fulfilled if he could regularly work with Arrow after coming clean about knowing it's Oliver.  He is at his most passionate when he's working a case and has the authority to do what needs to be done.  Also, he could use a positive relationship with a dude - maybe that could be a way for Oliver and him to develop a new adult relationship.  ...Except for the whole boning Sara thing.

[Danny Franks]

So now he's been arrested for being too dumb to know who's under the mask. I feel like this new wrinkle in the show would be far, far more interesting if it culminates in Quentin revealing that he does know who the Arrow is.

Him insisting, at the risk of his job, that he has no idea, and sticking to that, while everyone frets over Oliver's secrecy hurting people, and whether he could do anything to help Quentin. And then, once it's resolved, the Arrow apologises for it all, only for Quentin to let him know that he isn't a complete idiot, and he knows that he could have said "Oliver Queen is the Arrow", but didn't because he thinks the Arrow is helping the city? That could be such a great moment.

That's the sort of show of trust that could really solidify their relationship as partners, and really push Quentin into James Gordon territory.

[quarks]

I'm going with Quentin knows. His question to Sara - "So, what does Oliver think about all of this Arrow business?" seemed to be designed to get his daughter to open up to him, even if she didn't take the opportunity. There's no possible way that Quentin could think that Oliver would be fine with having his girlfriend disappear each and every evening without telling him what she's up to - the show even brought this up as a potential problem between Oliver and McKenna last season, and Sara and Oliver have been going out for weeks now. But instead of responding to Sara's "Oliver doesn't know," with "Wow, that seems odd," Quentin just dropped it.

Not to mention that the only evidence against Oliver's being the Arrow is the stunt he played last year where he had Diggle wear the hood while he was under arrest, and Quentin's smart enough to realize that could be easily rigged.  

And if the show says otherwise? I shall just retreat into my own little fanwanking headspace on this.

Edited April 4, 2014 by quarks

[KirkB]

Not to mention Lance has seen the Arrow take hits and the next day finds Oliver limping or bruised in the exact same way. Very few people get that kind of a look at Batman and Gordon never spent all that much around Bruce Wayne so I can kind of forgive that, and that sort of thing was never really an issue for Clark Kent at the people at the Daily Planet. But if Lance has spent this much time interacting with both Oliver and the Arrow, both of whom seem to be involved with Sara, and doesn't know they are the same person, IMO there is no way he's smart or observant enough to have become a detective in the first place.

[Monty]

Well, he hasn't been a detective in this season. He got busted down to officer, and now he might not be on the force at all.

[Kromm]

Well, he hasn't been a detective in this season. He got busted down to officer, and now he might not be on the force at all.

And it being one of the worst explained things ever.  An officer who seems to show up at random crime scenes, with his authority to do so or have any info at all, never really talked about.  Mid season they strayed from him being "just a beat cop" and strayed into being way vague, because there was no explaining the things the show needed him to do.

[Monty]

Yeah, he was supposed to be a beat cop, but he was also running major operations like the raid on the mob guy.

[KirkB]

I suppose the rationale is since he was a detective and a respected one at that, when he shows up at a crime scene he starts giving orders out of reflex and the others tend to obey unless someone higher in rank comes along to tell them otherwise. And since Quentin seems to be one of the only competent officers on the force in the first place I guess they kind of need the help.

[bluebonnet]

We don't talk about Detective Lance enough.  I've been rewatching the show and I can't quite decide whether or not Quentin knows Ollie's secret identity.  Most of me screams he has to know because duh.  But questions were raised, for me, when Quentin was arrested and would not admit to knowing, not even to Laurel.  Then there was that scene were he asked Sara what Ollie had to say.  Still, it was easily explained because his daughter was also a vigilante and would be an easy suspect if Lance told anyone that Oliver Queen was the vigilante.  

 

So, while I think Quentin knows but refuses to admit to it, I'm curious what arguments can be made for why he might not know.  

[icandigit]

I assumed he did and wasn't saying anything until the finale. But, the scenes where he tells everyone about Laurel's kidnapping and when Sara tells him later about Oliver leaving town made me change my mind. If they wanted to keep us guessing they should have had him with some kinda tell in those scenes that made us go, hmm he might know. They really didn't. Especially when his daughter is missing. What he said to Oliver would've been veiled but less distant more personal.

[statsgirl]

I can see him acting surprised, but with very bad acting.

 

Given that he knows who Sara is and that she was hanging out with Oliver, and that when he wants to talk to the Arrow he phones, Felicity, there's no way he can't know.

 

After the debacle with Dinah and getting his heart broken, I hope Quentin gets a love life next season.

[KirkB]

I have a feeling that Quentin willfully doesn't know. That is, if he stopped and thought about it for half a second of course he'd figure it out, but for Sara's sake and the city's he is trying to keep plausible deniability. Given how emotional he was when he came to the Arrow after Laurel got kidnapped in the finale, if he did know for sure I think when the Arrow talked about the city coming first and started to turn away Quentin would have snapped and shouted something like "Damn it, Oliver!"

[BkWurm1]

I think he actively works against knowing meaning that deep down he knows but clings to the times when Oliver's whereabouts were known and the Hood showed up somewhere else thus seeming to prove Oliver is not the Arrow.  Once he knew about Sara he HAD to make the connection that the Arrow HAD to be Oliver but he can cling to those little moments of plausible deniability and leave the question not only unanswered but actively unasked.

 

Which I think can explain how he can ask about Oliver like he doesn't know he's standing right in front of him.  The alternate thought to him asking about Oliver would be to see if his daughter is yet willing to share the truth with him, but even if that was his reason I still think he could be doing the denial thing at the same time.

 

Like he told Laurel, he doesn't want to know.  He needs the Arrow to do things and take chances that he couldn't ask of anyone he actually knows.  He couldn't do that to Oliver let alone to his daughters.  So in the end, when something FORCES Quentin into knowing, I would half expect him to deny ever seeing anything and go on pretending he doesn't know.  It's just easier that way for everyone. 

[statsgirl]

Paul Blackthorne was on ER s10 playing Alex Kingston's love interest, a womanizing, arrogant, untrustworthy hotshot, rather like pre-island Ollie.   (I wonder what his method preparation for that role was.

[Actionmage]

I'm bringing this over from my comments on the episode "Tremors":

"Now, I am a big Quentin Lance-as-played-by-Paul Blackthorn fan. Yet, I really have a problem with Quentin wordlessly shouldering his way into Laurel's apartment, snarking on the mess and implying that her booze is the sole/main cause of that mess. Laurel has tons of faults, reacts badly to confrontation with family members, but she is, at the end of the day, an adult female and is allowed to make crappy decisions as long as they aren't infringing on others. Like later in the episode, Quentin ambushes Laurel with a bait-and-switch- dinner*psych!* AA meeting! Not cool in any way. That wasn't an intervention. It wasn't helpful. It was controlling and condescending and gross coming from a character who had been trusting a virtual stranger to help safeguard a city. (Yes, he has to have an inkling The Arrow is someone he knows, but that is another thread. Purely by dialogue, Quentin goes with a 'I don't know you' base.) Yet, not taking cues from his own recovery, he's trying to force Laurel into her recovery. She flat isn't there yet. What happens next isn't helpful for Laurel either( but there's a lot that goes weird with the Lance family in the following episodes anyway.)

"  It just makes me sad that to further Laurel's downward spiral that Quentin had to be made to look worse than when we first met him. Yes, it came from concern and love for Laurel, but! Still not cool, what he said and did."

 

My question is: In season 1, was Quentin like this but we brushed it off as residual Queen/Oliver-hate? If not, did we see it for the icky controllingness that it was? I need to go over my dvds again, but I don't think Quentin was so over-the-line.

 

I remember the arguments over security, but that didn't seem controlling at the time. Laurel was also written, at the time, as almost daring mobsters and hit persons to kill her with her insistence of being left alone.

 

I still love Quentin on the whole. If his actions in "Tremors" can be grown away from, that'd be great though.That is, if they weren't Plot Contrivances so Laurel could have her  spiral.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Actionmage

[BkWurm1]

Oh Quentin, you are having a very bad day.  :(

[Actionmage]

The look on Quentin's face when Laurel Said she couldn't talk to him? It cut him deep. He's only been with you since Dinah left town and the insanity of the last year. There are probably very few "off-limits" subjects and Laurel didn't clarify that it fell into one of those. On top of that, she's fussing over him like he's a kid that would willfully ignore his doctor and get hurt/injured again. Also, the obvious pulling away from him. ( How can she not know; he notices that kind of stuff for a living?)

 

It was floated in the episode thread (4.5), but I agree: Quentin needs to meet Donna, Felicity's mom. I could totally ship them, but it's kinda rushing things since we just saw Donna. It could lighten Quentin a bit and  a Dinah/ Donna meeting could be a wonderful present for all involved, including us! ( I miss Ms. Kingston.) Plus, Quentin has earned some love. He could appreciate her sacrifices and how cool she is. She could find him heroic and equally cool.  They can commiserate over their daughters and how it's hard being the sole parent.  There is so much good potential.

[statsgirl]

Not to mention, Paul Blackthorne said that he wanted to see Quentin get a love interest. Win-win all around.

[thuganomics85]

I'm getting to the point now that, when Quentin finds out Sara is dead (I have to think it's only a matter of time), and just how long Laurel and the rest have been keeping it from him (and the methods they used in this recent episode), I want him to completely lose it and just become next season's big baddie.  The Wrath of Quentin.  Against the Lying Liars who Lie.

 

Seriously, though: I don't care about the reasons or excuses.  Whatever reaction he has, they will deserve it, and just need to shut up and take it.  Ugh.

[tv echo]

Most likely, Quentin will just forgive Laurel - because he seems to forgive whatever outrageous, unethical or unlawful thing that she's ever done for the past two plus seasons.  

[chaos is welcome]

I am a little worried about immediate forgiveness as well. He should revert back to bitter s1 Quentin who is distrustful of all, and is willing to use his daughter as bait to get the arrow. It's inexcusable what they are doing to him.

[Actionmage]

And despite Felicity, finds himself drawn to fun, bubbly Donna Smoak and has a life outside of his job! ::crosses fingers and promises to eat my veggies::

 

I just want to hug Quentin every time someone lies to him about Sara. Yet, I have a feeling that our esteemed Captain, who correctly sussed out Ollie as The Hood, probably is already onto the Truth About Sara and has mourned quietly, and quite possibly angrily, on his own time. He's probably been to tons of meetings and is mostly at a good spot.

 

Then last night's episode happens. His baby's been called dead for certain twice before.

 

And I want to just hug him and make cocoa with tiny marshmallows for him.

 

Much love for Paul Blackthorne for dealing with this inane, horrible storyline!

[Angel12d]

I feel like we need to have a Quentin Lance death watch because PB has been given nothing to do this season. It feels like it's only a matter of time.

[Starfish35]

I agree.

[Actionmage]

No; we, like Felicity and the gang, have to keep hope alive for those that are still with us. ( Sad that I am only half joking.)

[KirkB]

At this point I'm kind of hoping Quentin gets tired of all the crap from guys like Brick, city hall AND team Arrow, kills everybody who's pissed him off and HE takes over the city.

[Actionmage]

Well, he knows now. Which is good. Are we going to see any consequences for Dinah and Laurel, not to mention Team Arrow, for keeping him in the dark for so long. Whether he truly doped it out (my headcannon) or not (what the episode wants to sell), whether Laurel will try to take all the blame for the lies as her doing, Quentin  should be righteously angry and correctly so.  Quentin even has the perfect line to Laurel if he decides to shut down her Canary time: he's doing it to protect her; that he can't lose another daughter!

 

PB scared me, with his stagger back after the news. I was mentally looking for the police doctor!  Quentin is a great foil/ally for Team Arrow; use him better, Show!

Edited February 12, 2015 by Actionmage

[BkWurm1]

PB scared me, with his stagger back after the news. I was mentally looking for the police doctor!  Quentin is a great foil/ally for Team Arrow; use him better, Show!

 

Yup, this. 

 

Still don't like that they are continuing with him having heart problems. 

[Carrie Ann]

Well, he knows now. Which is good. Are we going to see any consequences for Dinah and Laurel, not to mention Team Arrow, for keeping him in the dark for so long. 

 

I may have sent a super snotty question to MG on Tumblr about this last night. I honestly never ever try to interact with people like that, and I half-wish I could delete the question now, but eh. If he answers it, it would only be in the affirmative and I'll be relieved to know that there will be actual consequences. But unless Quentin pulls a pretty abrupt turn, it doesn't appear that he's angry with Laurel for keeping the secret. So whatever happens, it won't be satisfying to me.

[apinknightmare]

I'm gonna call shenanigans if Quentin's first question after he comes to grips isn't "where is she?" And when he finds out she was buried in her old grave where the grass has already regrown over it, surely he must ask "How fucking long ago did this happen?!"

MG said there would be comeuppance from Lance, but I bet it's going to be aimed at Team Arrow as much as if not more than Laurel.

[Carrie Ann]

Right, or Lance is going to end up actually having this heart problem, which once again is not a consequence for Laurel. He's the one who pays. Laurel never does.

[kismet]

Right, or Lance is going to end up actually having this heart problem, which once again is not a consequence for Laurel. He's the one who pays. Laurel never does.

But Laurel always reminds us how much she is paying.... so annoying the way she does that. She might have a big heart, but she also has a big mouth making sure everyone knows what she did.

 

Poor Quentin... Maybe he'll take a little vacation to Vegas, meet Donna & actually be happy for a bit. He is technically out of the SC border so happiness is a possibility. Maybe its Quentin that brings Mama Smoak to town. And of course because they crossed the town line all happiness must cease so 1 of them winds up in the hospital.

[Scribbles]

In the Q&A with SA we get a hint that a big scene between Arrow and Quentin is coming at the end of 3-18. 

 

I am of the mindset that Quentin has long believed Oliver is the Arrow.  Last season with Sara he had to come to grips with people wearing masks being real people with families and friends.  I am not sure what I think would be an in character reaction for Quentin if he unmasks the Arrow at this point.

 

He has Laurel flaiiling about playing at being a hero in a mask and knows Roy is Arsenal.  What does Quentin do with the confirmation that Oliver is the Arrow?  Hopefully the writers make it good.

[Actionmage]

Is it wrong to hope for a Quentin/Felicity reconciliation scene?  They have so much crap from others hitting them, plus the new mayor's death, that I kind of want Capt. Lance and Felicity to be good again. She obviously cares about him and his well-being, despite the Canary fakery. He's trusted her (first earthquake machine) and understands that while she is less than sterling legal-wise, she's trying to ensure the safety of the city.

 

Adding into it Felcity's father issues, I kind of hope they can get back to being friends. Take the time, it was a big secret to be kept.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Actionmage

[tv echo]

I agree that Quentin has long suspected Oliver is the Arrow but chose to ignore it.  After finding out Sara was the Canary last season, he'd be an idiot not to suspect Oliver - who also was presumed dead and turned up alive at about the same time the hooded vigilante appeared in Starling City.  But then again... this is the show where no one recognizes Oliver's jawline under the hood or body shape.

[Actionmage]

Are we supposed to believe that Quentin never had an inkling, even after the suspiciously convenient exoneration?  Things were in a better place between Quentin and Ollie/Arrow in Season 2, but by the time Laurel tried to tell Quentin the truth? It seemed he had made his peace more than just flat didn't know.

 

As others have said, with Felicity, Roy and Sara being known associates of the Arrow, how could the good Captain not have it as a strong hunch?  Yet, the dialogue given QL tonight was all "I should have known!"  Well, he did.   Yet another straw in the game of desert Jenga the writers are playing with me.  The writers are making a concerted effort to drop as many inconsistent and insulting actions from Quentin, so the camel's back may break before the end of the season.

 

As others in the episode thread have noted: Lian Yu was for Sara to tell Quentin, not Oliver, especially as Oliver thought she was dead due to drowning at that point. Look to your surviving daughter, dude. Oliver didn't buckle up and fake like he was Sara, so ease up and put S1 Quentin back in his box. Please?

[tv echo]

It's a bit hypocritical for Quentin to be angry at Laurel and Oliver (persuaded by Laurel to keep quiet) for not telling him for months that Sara was dead.  Last season, Quentin (persuaded by Sara to keep quiet ) didn't tell Dinah - Sara's mother! - and Laurel for months that Sara was alive.