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ElectricBoogaloo

S03.E13: Pandemonium

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Friendship is a higher form of love than romantic love. Romance is just a magic trick that biology plays on you so as to further the propagation of the species.

I find the love between Michael and Janet more affecting than the infatuation that Janet feels for Jason. And while I'm on board with Chidi and Eleanor loving each other, being "in love" for an eternity -- is that a good thing? Is it even possible? Stomach flutterings, racing hearts, aroused genitals, after several million years as a couple? 

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One thing that isn't clear to me from this finale is how they are going to replicate the torture element from the original neighborhood.

The initial scenario was set up to be the perfect torture for all four humans. Eleanor thinks she is in TGP by mistake, and has to keep up her disguise in front of tons of people she is going to see as disgustingly perfect. Depending on what she chooses, either a stick-in-the-mud ethics professor is her only confidante, or just the hardest person to keep the façade up in front of.

Indecisive, always tormented Chidi is going to, at minimum, have to deal with being paired with a soulmate who is obviously unsuitable for him -- and, likely, going to deal with the ethical crisis caused by figuring out/being told that Eleanor is here by mistake. My guess is if Eleanor hadn't fessed up, at some point, Michael would have engineered the situation so that Chidi found out another way.

Tahani, who is consumed with a sense of inferiority, has to be around a whole group of perfect people. She is paired, to all appearances, with a silent Buddhist monk who isn't going to lavish her with praise and is going to make her feel even more inferior with his presumed nobility. Jason, of course, is stuck pretending to be a Buddhist monk, committed to an acetic life.

Throughout, Michael and the other demons were helping things along. From giving Eleanor the small, creepy clown house to letting Tahani see that she was the bottom point scorer to bringing in "real" Eleanor, the whole neighborhood was designed to subtly torture them while appearing to be a paradise.

Now, the other residents are neutrals, not demons, and as it doesn't seem Shawn has a say in the day to day running of the neighborhood, there's really no one left to be an obvious source of torture - which is going to change the dynamic significantly already.

In addition, Simone can't logically take the Eleanor spot, since everything we know about her suggests that Simone is a thoroughly decent person. She would have no reason to think she wasn't legitimately in the Good Place, and even if she somehow figured it out, there isn't an obvious reason for her to need to seek ethics lessons from Chidi.

None of this is necessarily a problem, but it raises a lot of interesting possibilities. Do Michael, Eleanor et al realize they have to start torturing Chidi and the new four humans to jump-start the process? How do they engineer things so Chidi plays ethics teacher again? Not that I think the experiment is going to work anyway - or at least not in the way Team Cockroach 2.0 expects; four new people aren't likely to wind up in the same place that the original four did. 

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I loved this episode, and am very sad to have no Good Place for 8 months.  :( 

I have absolutely no problem with the rebooting.  I don't think of this as a trope - it's an integral part of the show's design.  It's not like they're using it because they've run out of ideas, or wrote themselves into a corner.  The reboots always serve the plot.  I wish they took the Season 2 episode where they whizzed through 800+ reboots in a single episode, and gave each it's own episode.  OK, not all 800, but that would be a fun filler for the hiatus - have mini webisodes of some of the reboots, since they could do whatever they wanted and have no effect on going back to the main story in Season 4.  Anyways, I agree that Chidi would be unable to keep up the facade of not having met Simone, and his reboot was necessary. 

I also love Eleanor and Chidi as a couple.  I think they have great chemistry, and Michael's video was so sweet! 

I do wish they had introduced all 4 new characters in the finale.  I would have preferred either all 4 or just Simone.  It felt weird to introduce just 2.

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11 hours ago, j5cochran said:

Is the terrified Michael of this episode the "real" Michael?  Or did Shawn manage to get the "Vicki in a Michael suit" into the neighborhood? That mood change seemed so over the top to me, that I wondered if it was our Michael.

I was wondering that too. Not only did he have the initial panic attack when the first new person showed up, but he didn't do much of anything helpful or constructive after that. Even the Eleanor/Chidi montage movie ultimately just made them both sadder.

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5 hours ago, clack said:

I find the love between Michael and Janet more affecting than the infatuation that Janet feels for Jason.

I kind of love the Janet/Jason pairing because it's meant to be forced and unnatural. There's a self-awareness about it. Chidi/Eleanor is played very straight. (No pun intended.) In my personal opinion, Eleanor/Tahani or Eleanor/Simone was setup better. It was less "smashing two people together until they kiss". Eleanor and Chidi went from barely tolerating each other to not being able to keep their hands off each other. Every plot point that brought them together, like forcing them to live together, those life-or-death moments, seeing memories of sleeping together in other resets, etc. have been largely artificial. It's just not very organic, whether the actors have chemistry or not.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Aw. I loved what Janet said in the end. It could be about all of the relationships of the characters, not only the romantic ones. Is it close to what Albert Camus believed or am I seeing things because I like a lot of his books?

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1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

I kind of love the Janet/Jason pairing because it's meant to be forced and unnatural. There's a self-awareness about it. Chidi/Eleanor is played very straight. (No pun intended.) In my personal opinion, Eleanor/Tahani or Eleanor/Simone was setup better. It was less "smashing two people together until they kiss". Eleanor and Chidi went from barely tolerating each other to not being able to keep their hands off each other. Every plot point that brought them together, like forcing them to live together, those life-or-death moments, seeing memories of sleeping together in other resets, etc. have been largely artificial. It's just not very organic, whether the actors have chemistry or not.

I see that Eleanor and Chidi complement each other. He has taught her to think about the consequences of her actions. She has taught him to think a little less.  But we have alsoseen that Eleanor has developed a passion for moral philosophy that rivals Chidi’s passion, and they have learned how the other views the world. 

Also theyare both, for different reasons, discovering true intimacy for the first time. 

I think this hs been organic. Yes in the ordinary course of events they would never have brcome acquainted. 

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One other interesting factor they never mentioned is that since Simone is dead, if she doesn't take part in Michael's experiment, she would be sent to Sean's bad place to be tortured.

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On 1/25/2019 at 5:29 AM, bluebox said:

Also what is Simone supposed to improve on? She seems dead-on awesome.

By the theory of season 3, no one has scored enough to earn Good Place admittance in centuries. Maybe Simone had her own almond milk type situation. 

On 1/25/2019 at 6:13 AM, Cerulean said:

They’re supposed to be “about the same badness”. Did we ever see the four’s actual point totals? If he’s supposed to be Tahani’s correlary, he seems a lot worse. If Simone is Chidi’s (possibly slightly better she’s not indecisive), i can’t wait to see the match’s for Eleanor and Jason. On the other hand, since even Doug’s points were enough, maybe the actual totals are irrelevant.

I think John is Shawn's pick to be Tahini's (inadvertent) torturer, not her parallel. (TBH, it's a shame none of the other three original humans were big Kamilah fans. I think they hadn't quite dialed in on Tahani at the start of the show, so the idea that Jason and Eleanor and Chidi would torture her by their very selves didn't quite work, not as much as the torture designs for the other three.)

Simone might be more of a parallel to Tahani in her relative awesomeness. But mostly she's Shawn's pick to torture Eleanor and Chidi.

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7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Indecisive, always tormented Chidi is going to, at minimum, have to deal with being paired with a soulmate who is obviously unsuitable for him -- and, likely, going to deal with the ethical crisis caused by figuring out/being told that Eleanor is here by mistake. My guess is if Eleanor hadn't fessed up, at some point, Michael would have engineered the situation so that Chidi found out another way.

In addition Chidi was also tortured by having to find a new life’s work in the afterlife. Remember Michael told him that his thesis was unreadable and was trying to steer him towards other careers - cartography, journalism, arc welding, etc. And he hated all of them. I assumed this was always to be part of his torture as well. In addition to the side bit with Eleanor. 

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When they said how easy it would be to avoid running into someone in a town with 322 people, I thought, "Clearly you didn't attend a small high school." It can be impossible to avoid someone when there are only 300 people!

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As someone who never really got into the Eleanor/Chidi thing (they just seem like really good friends to me), I was still affected by the montage. Kristen Bell was superb as usual.

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

In my personal opinion, Eleanor/Tahani or Eleanor/Simone was setup better.

I think Eleanor has way more sexual/romantic chemistry with either Tahani or Simone than she does with Chidi.

I don't mind the wipe. It sets up a different kind of tension for next season.  I must admit I felt guilty at laughing that they realised the best way for Jason not to fuck things up was to have him be the silent Buddhist monk again.  His pizza line made me tear up too.

Tahani was a positive saint with that nasty blogger guy.  I would have smacked him (or at least spat in his frozen yoghurt).  I like that she quickly worked out that he was a trap for her.

It wasn't the most amazeballs finale, but I really liked it and it sets up some good storylines for next year.  I can't wait to see who the remaining two 'inmates' are - presumably nemeses for Eleanor and Jason?

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8 hours ago, pootlus said:

His pizza line made me tear up too.

Jason was amazing in that scene. So worried for Chidi then glad that at least he will remember what pizza is. Whew. That was close. Manny's face was so amazing and expressive in that scene that yeah, I got a bit teary eyed myself. Really, this whole ep was one big blubberfest for me. I partly took the next day off because I was so wrecked by this ep (I also didn't feel well, but was on the fence about going in until TGP just devastated me.)

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13 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When they said how easy it would be to avoid running into someone in a town with 322 people, I thought, "Clearly you didn't attend a small high school." It can be impossible to avoid someone when there are only 300 people!

When the only entertainment is Tahani’s parties and drinking beer out of boots in the town square?

michael had what seemed to be mandatory gatherings. Flying. Etc. 

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6 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

So worried for Chidi then glad that at least he will remember what pizza is.

I know, it was so sweet, in a Jason kind of way. I know that the changes that Eleanor have made are probably the most notable of Team Cockroach, but Jason has shown a lot of real growth as well, even if its harder to see a lot of times because Jason...is gonna Jason. He has become a lot more thoughtful of others (his real flaw wasn't exactly that he was stupid, its that he was stupid and selfish), really cares about his friends, and has even shown some depth of understanding, like his whole speech in the episode before this about understanding context before judging someone on seemingly bad behavior. This was probably always something in him (he DID figure out they were in the Bad Place in one time line!) but it was never really nurtured until now. Which certainly makes sense, considering his dad is Donkey Doug, the man who quit his sons dance crew because he wanted to spend more time on dance, and less time on petty crime...

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24 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Which certainly makes sense, considering his dad is Donkey Doug, the man who quit his sons dance crew because he wanted to spend more time on dance, and less time on petty crime...

Is there another story about the 60 person dance crew? I thought Donkey Doug quit when Jason framed his girlfriend for boogie board theft.

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19 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Is there another story about the 60 person dance crew? I thought Donkey Doug quit when Jason framed his girlfriend for boogie board theft.

I am pretty sure that DD was the first guy to leave the Dance Crew when Jason had his near death experience, and decided to try and better himself. He probably quit several times :)

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I think Chidi and Eleanor could be a decent couple, but the mind wipe seemed like just a different twist on the long standing TV practice of finding contrived ways to break up the couple so they can do another round of will they get back together, rinse and repeat until the final reconciliation when the show ends or final break-up if one of the actors leaves the show.   When a show splits up a couple for a second time, I start to not care if they get back together.  I would be also be OK if the Jason-Tahani-Janet triangle was dropped.

I did think the Janet - Eleanor scene was touching.  I find all of the friendships more interesting than the romantic drama and Janet's evolution has been a highlight of the show.

Still a good show, but as much as I will miss it, I think it would be best for next year to be the last year.

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On 1/26/2019 at 12:16 AM, Zuleikha said:

It does raise an important question about how the afterlife could really handle multiple deep love. Exes who broke up in life is one thing, but what about widows/widowers?

Oh, I always wonder about that. My grandpa has remarried since my Nana passed and I am SURE he is meant to spend the afterlife with Nana. However, my parents were childhood/high school sweethearts, soulmates in every version of the word, and they amicably divorced. My stepmother is guaranteed eternal damnation, but my mom may have both my dad and my stepdad there as her "eternity" mates. Love triangle!!! Haha

I wish this show actually knew these afterlife answers. I mean, what if Larry Hemsworth dies! Does Tahani spend eternity with him, or Eleanor? 

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29 minutes ago, BoogieBurns said:

Oh, I always wonder about that. My grandpa has remarried since my Nana passed and I am SURE he is meant to spend the afterlife with Nana. However, my parents were childhood/high school sweethearts, soulmates in every version of the word, and they amicably divorced. My stepmother is guaranteed eternal damnation, but my mom may have both my dad and my stepdad there as her "eternity" mates. Love triangle!!! Haha

I wish this show actually knew these afterlife answers. I mean, what if Larry Hemsworth dies! Does Tahani spend eternity with him, or Eleanor? 

Alternate/parallel afterlife timelines?

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I think the last time I cried this much at a sitcom was the last episode of Scrubs, season 8, when JD's final fantasy is a video montage of what he hopes the future will look like.

So lesson learned: whenever an NBC sitcom breaks out a video montage--watch out, tear ducts. You don't stand a chance.

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16 hours ago, commadrama said:

I think the last time I cried this much at a sitcom was the last episode of Scrubs, season 8, when JD's final fantasy is a video montage of what he hopes the future will look like.

So lesson learned: whenever an NBC sitcom breaks out a video montage--watch out, tear ducts. You don't stand a chance.

Yup, when Jim and Pam had their season 9 marital troubles, it got wrapped up with a video montage that led to a LOT of crying in my household (of one).

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On 1/26/2019 at 6:38 PM, arc said:

By the theory of season 3, no one has scored enough to earn Good Place admittance in centuries. Maybe Simone had her own almond milk type situation. 

Right but my point is, that's not something she can improve upon by seeking out Chidi's help and studying moral philosophy.

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2 minutes ago, bluebox said:

Right but my point is, that's not something [Simone] can improve upon by seeking out Chidi's help and studying moral philosophy.

Maybe and maybe not. She might have died in a car crash when she swerved to avoid hitting a pedestrian, but drove into a large beehive killing the queen and many drones, and was stung to death by the remaining bees (remember Shawn said her death was hilarious). As a result, the entire Down Under ecosystem was negatively impacted. Meanwhile, the pedestrian was a serial killer. Or someone who hated Foster's and never cooked shrimp on the barbie. Chidi could provide guidance on why avoiding the pedestrian violated this or that philosopher's rules.

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12 minutes ago, bluebox said:

Right but my point is, that's not something she can improve upon by seeking out Chidi's help and studying moral philosophy.

True, unless she unintentionally creates enough drama to break up the experiment all together she was a wasted choice by Shawn. Remove the unintended consequences and she should be a shoe in. 

Edited by Dani
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On 1/25/2019 at 10:18 AM, jmonique said:

Yeah, no, me being over the writers repeatedly going to the mindswipe well doesn't mean I don't get it. I, and I'm guessing others, fully see how they led Chidi to this point where he and Eleanor have to make this huge sacrifice.

That doesn't make the "well, let's just take the character's memories" routine any less overused on the show or this any less manufactured. The Chidi who woke up in the waiting room and was greeted by Eleanor is the Chidi who was constantly paralyzed by indecision; we've lost the Chidi who saved Eleanor by imploring her to hold onto her memories of who she was; the Chidi who boldy told her that he loved her and then not only planned a date with her in the way station but also cosplayed as a mailman to fulfill Eleanor's kink; and the Chidi who finally knew happiness in a couple.

Instead, it's Chidi #804, and I'm tired of getting emotionally attached to these characters every season, only to have them and their interactions reset by reboots. Jason and Tahani don't remember falling in love and the growth they gained by trying to make a relationship work. Eleanor and Tahani don't remember becoming BFFs despite hating one another, and the growth they gained by being there for one another. 

I found the mindwipe in the season one finale clever, and thought the second episode of season two that was nothing but mindwipes just brilliant. I'll still watch season four, and I get that pulling one of the original four out of the group dynamic will make for interesting storyline possibilities next season, especially considering he'll think Eleanor is an architect, not Arizona trash. But they need to commit to these characters and allow these relationships to grow and continue, because watching them have to find and rebuild and regain these relationships is getting repetitive to me.

ALL THAT BEING SAID:

The Chidi & Eleanor movie was not just beautiful, but the music that played over it was a feast of artistry. The music team needs a raise for that score alone. It took the montage from lovely into the Rom-Com Hall of Fame.


I can't express how much I agree with this. I get the reason for this latest mind wipe, and the possibilities it opens up, but I'm still over the mind wipes. I'm pretty sure someone else mentioned this, but I forgot to quote it; I am feeling the same fatigue I eventually developed with Once Upon a Time's use of the device. 

As for the Eleanor/Chidi comment underneath the "ALL THAT BEING SAID" header, I agree with that too, with this caveat: as their montage was moving me, it occurred to me that I'm not even sure Eleanor and Chidi REMEMBER MOST OF THOSE MOMENTS, and that, dear readers, cheapened their movie for me. It went from being a beautiful moment to some sort of "Emperor's New Clothes" moment for me, and I'm the little kid who saw the emperor was nekkid.

Earlier this season, when Michael gave Eleanor the overwhelming peek at her forgotten afterlife past, I felt like that was a Chekhov's Gun for season three.

Now it may still be one for the entire series (i.e. the series will end with the core four having their full memories restored) but I feel like the season not only promised something (memory restoration) and then failed to deliver it, but that by mind-wiping Chidi once again, it also took away something it (and the audience) had already earned. 

I still love the show overall. I'm still going to watch the fourth season. This isn't that kind of rant. I am just tired of the mind wipes, and I feel like the Eleanor/Chidi movie was manipulative in a way that made me feel cheap. I hope the show avoids (or minimizes its use of) these moves in future seasons.

 

On 1/25/2019 at 4:47 PM, BoogieBurns said:

I can't even remember the character name because he instantly became Perez Hilton in my head.

 

On 1/25/2019 at 5:31 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

John Wheaton.

That's funny!


I went to the Perez place too, but I also wondered if "John Wheaton" was a shout out to (or poke at) Joss Whedon. Anyone else? 

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15 hours ago, General Days said:

As for the Eleanor/Chidi comment underneath the "ALL THAT BEING SAID" header, I agree with that too, with this caveat: as their montage was moving me, it occurred to me that I'm not even sure Eleanor and Chidi REMEMBER MOST OF THOSE MOMENTS, and that, dear readers, cheapened their movie for me. It went from being a beautiful moment to some sort of "Emperor's New Clothes" moment for me, and I'm the little kid who saw the emperor was nekkid.

The montage was virtually all clips we had never seen before

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On 2/2/2019 at 11:15 AM, General Days said:

I went to the Perez place too, but I also wondered if "John Wheaton" was a shout out to (or poke at) Joss Whedon. Anyone else? 

I had the same thought about the Joss Whedon shout-out, but Mike Schur said on the Podcast, there isn't any meaning behind the name.

My main issue with this season finale is similar to what was already posted above. What's the main motivation for the newcomers to become better humans?

I trust the show implicitly so I'm sure the answer will be clever one.

I listened to the podcast after watching the episode so it was pretty much a straight hour and a half of non-stop crying which ended up being super cathartic. This show is great and strange simultaneously.

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11 minutes ago, Catfi9ht said:

I had the same thought about the Joss Whedon shout-out, but Mike Schur said on the Podcast, there isn't any meaning behind the name.

My main issue with this season finale is similar to what was already posted above. What's the main motivation for the newcomers to become better humans?

I trust the show implicitly so I'm sure the answer will be clever one.

I listened to the podcast after watching the episode so it was pretty much a straight hour and a half of non-stop crying which ended up being super cathartic. This show is great and strange simultaneously.

I wonder the same thing. I do think it’s strange that they are trying to follow the same formula of the original neighborhood.

I think the people will improve just because unintended consequences are no longer a factor. They will be operating in a vacuum where if you do something good you gain points and if you do something bad you lose points. 

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Late realization: why not restore Chidi's pre-Simone but post-death memories so he and Eleanor would still be together? They could then explain to that Chidi what the current situation is and proceed with their original plan. Checkmate, you dingdong.

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1 hour ago, arc said:

Late realization: why not restore Chidi's pre-Simone but post-death memories so he and Eleanor would still be together? They could then explain to that Chidi what the current situation is and proceed with their original plan. Checkmate, you dingdong.

I think they said something about how the memory wipe system is very basic to the point where trying to do a targeted wipe would not be possible.

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6 hours ago, arc said:

Late realization: why not restore Chidi's pre-Simone but post-death memories so he and Eleanor would still be together? They could then explain to that Chidi what the current situation is and proceed with their original plan. Checkmate, you dingdong.

I thought the same thing but I doubt it will happen. 

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I think they said something about how the memory wipe system is very basic to the point where trying to do a targeted wipe would not be possible.

I think ARC meant give Chidi previous memories like when they let Eleanor see the version where they fell in love. Even if they can’t restore wiped memories they could let him watch some of what happened in previous reboots so that he is aware of situation. 

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Yeah. Basically, restoring Chidi’s memories of everything that happened in seasons 1 and 2. Michael only said that he couldn’t selectively wipe Simone from Chidi’s memories since her work in the study was so tied to the Soul Squad, meaning he’d have to effectively wipe every memory of Chidi’s life since there, meaning he might as well go right back to the air conditioner death. But none of that really means he couldn’t then restore Chidi’s old memories of all the afterlives he lived with Eleanor and Tahani and Jason and arguably even everything up to the Judge’s chambers at the end of S2.

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I'm finally watching this right now. This Is Us is supposed to make me cry (that's why I don't watch), not this show! 😞 Chidi and Eleanor watching their history together. 

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On 1/24/2019 at 11:30 PM, tomsmom said:

This may be an unpopular opinion but....meh. Chidi can’t be around Simone but he expects Elenor to be around him???? Harsh! So now we have to watch them find their way back to each other again???? Like I said....meh.

Yeah, and then they might have them like each other again, which is another love triangle I have no interest in.

I love this show, it was a lovely little surprise. I don't want it to go down badly, because of repeated mind wipes, and a stupid love triangle. When it came to Jason, Tahani, and Janet, we all know Tahani isn't in love with him. It's different. 

On 1/25/2019 at 8:29 AM, bluebox said:

Also what is Simone supposed to improve on? She seems dead-on awesome.

And how did she die? Was she killed just so that they could torture Eleanor and Chidi? If so, that's horrible.

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4 hours ago, Anela said:

Yeah, and then they might have them like each other again, which is another love triangle I have no interest in.

I love this show, it was a lovely little surprise. I don't want it to go down badly, because of repeated mind wipes, and a stupid love triangle. When it came to Jason, Tahani, and Janet, we all know Tahani isn't in love with him. It's different. 

And how did she die? Was she killed just so that they could torture Eleanor and Chidi? If so, that's horrible.

We don't know how Simone died, but I realllly doubt the judge would let the Bad Place kill her for this experiment

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11 hours ago, bros402 said:

We don't know how Simone died, but I realllly doubt the judge would let the Bad Place kill her for this experiment

All we know is that Simone's death was hilarious.*

*Per Shawn, who might not be the most reliable of narrators.

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So John is a bad swishy gay stereotype of a gossip blogger.

I'm happy Simone is back even if it forks up their plans. I like that actress/character.

I feel like this show's ideas about the Good Place and Bad Place can be hit or miss but they're developing something intriguing about the self and identity with the way the Brainy Bunch/Soul Squad have been rebooted (mostly Chidi and Eleanor because the shipping makes them a big focus) and Janet. 

I don't hate the mind wipe because I still feel like Chidi and Eleanor give off platonic best friend energy. And once again the show is trying to make me board the ship by showing a montage of flashbacks. That's not how it works!

I'm excited for season 4. I hope there's less filler this time. It feels like they're in a good place (ha!) to resolve everything if they know what they want to do.

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Oh, Shawn, you diabolical little bastard!  That demon totally knew how to game the system and the four new "guests" are going to be people who will personally torture the heroes in their own way.  Well played, Shawn!  So, now we've got this blogger that made Tahani's life a living hell and Simone is back (yay) to cause conflict with Chidi. 

This supports my idea that another demon would have done a better job of torturing humans in a complicated simulation. Sure, maybe it would have been hard to sell it as the Good Place but otherwise, someone else definitely could have managed psychological torture better than Michael.

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None of this is necessarily a problem, but it raises a lot of interesting possibilities. Do Michael, Eleanor et al realize they have to start torturing Chidi and the new four humans to jump-start the process? How do they engineer things so Chidi plays ethics teacher again? Not that I think the experiment is going to work anyway - or at least not in the way Team Cockroach 2.0 expects; four new people aren't likely to wind up in the same place that the original four did. 

One thing that immediately jumped out at me reading your post is that by throwing in the gossip blogger, Shawn already messed up the experiment. One of the biggest parts of Michael's argument was that the world is too complicated and that a big reason that the original 4 improved once they got to the "Good Place" is that the things that were pushing them to be bad had been removed. If you buy that then putting John with Tahani is bringing in something from earth that negatively impacted his ability to be good. Yes, she's a person but for how he treated her she might as well be an object. If John is a smoker trying to quit, Tahani is a box of cigarettes.

Unless there's an Eleanor analog, it feels like the only thing that would motivate the new humans to improve is to learn they're actually in the Bad Place. But as we learned, that corrupts their motivations. 

Maybe Eleanor can come up with something like... there's a random machine that will play memories from your time on earth or pick a flavor of froyo or assign you the animal you're supposed to bond to, etc. and one or more of the new humans will keep getting bad things until they're forced into a crisis about how they don't belong in the Good Place. Though, again, I think that risks tipping off that it's the Bad Place.

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It was less "smashing two people together until they kiss". Eleanor and Chidi went from barely tolerating each other to not being able to keep their hands off each other. Every plot point that brought them together, like forcing them to live together, those life-or-death moments, seeing memories of sleeping together in other resets, etc. have been largely artificial. It's just not very organic, whether the actors have chemistry or not.

This. I love a good romance. This is not a good romance. I wouldn't say the problem is that they were antagonists but that they were clearly friends more than lovers. But everything else about how their relationship has been developed off screen or in flashbacks rings true. It's all artificial, like the writers just expect us to go with it because it's been decreed as canon even though it was developed all wrong and out of order. 

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When the only entertainment is Tahani’s parties and drinking beer out of boots in the town square?

michael had what seemed to be mandatory gatherings. Flying. Etc. 

I could see John not being a join-er like Eleanor initially hated doing things with the group. This version of the Good Place is definitely a suburban ideal... very Stepford with all the community events. Maybe Janet will order all her babies to not be snarky so John is forced to play nice and it starts to make him crazy that no one takes any joy in mocking a Tahani or a Larry Hemsworth.

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I find the love between Michael and Janet more affecting than the infatuation that Janet feels for Jason.

Michael/Janet and Michael/Eleanor are my actual ships. Not romantically. I just think that either of those pairings feel like soul mates who should be together for eternity.

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Right but my point is, that's not something she can improve upon by seeking out Chidi's help and studying moral philosophy.

True, unless she unintentionally creates enough drama to break up the experiment all together she was a wasted choice by Shawn. Remove the unintended consequences and she should be a shoe in. 

Well, they're the ones who think Chidi needs to teach ethics. Technically all they have to do is show the humans improving once they're in a more sterile environment free from the distractions of earth. So yeah, maybe Simone does fine on her with the unintended consequences removed. 

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We don't know how Simone died, but I realllly doubt the judge would let the Bad Place kill her for this experiment

I felt like Shawn was suspicious when he was saying how lucky they were that she happened to die in time for the experiment. Also, we know quite well that the higher ups haven't been very attentive to the happenings on earth. I wouldn't be surprised if the demons did something shady. As far as I know, they still have their portal. It wouldn't have to be murder. They could have just caused an accident like the ones that befell most of our Brainy Bunch.

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I just rewatched the whole run, finishing with this one. 

There's something else going on. Like why isn't the Good Place involved in this at all? Michael is still a demon, after all. Why would the judge appoint HIM the pro-human side in such a big event. I know we were shown the Good Place as dweebs, but  why would the Judge just make determinations about its future without any consultation. There was a look Shaun gave that hinted there was more than the eye could see here. 

I could be wrong, but I think there's another game being played. 

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On 9/13/2019 at 9:52 PM, whiporee said:

I just rewatched the whole run, finishing with this one. 

There's something else going on. Like why isn't the Good Place involved in this at all? Michael is still a demon, after all. Why would the judge appoint HIM the pro-human side in such a big event. I know we were shown the Good Place as dweebs, but  why would the Judge just make determinations about its future without any consultation. There was a look Shaun gave that hinted there was more than the eye could see here. 

I could be wrong, but I think there's another game being played. 

Maybe because through his actions, Michael has demonstrated how deeply he cares for humans - and the Judge also knows how long it can take for the Good Place to decide on anything. Maybe they don't have any interest in this project, as it might not be a net good to participate in a project where demons have had a hand in creating/developing/running.

And they'd probably want to marbleize Janet. We can't have that.

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I think it is because Michael has put himself forward as the advocate for humans.  He is the one who is challenging the system, and the one asking for change.  So he represents, not the Good Place, but the voices for change.

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On 1/24/2019 at 10:40 PM, Dots And Stripes said:
On 1/24/2019 at 10:30 PM, tomsmom said:

This may be an unpopular opinion but....meh. Chidi can’t be around Simone but he expects Elenor to be around him???? Harsh! So now we have to watch them find their way back to each other again???? Like I said....meh.

Good point! I guess one huge difference is Chidi can't lie and Eleanor is a world class liar. But yeah, he's kind of setting her up for some torture.

The biggest point is, making sure this experiment works is the only way to secure getting out of the bad place for eternity. Chidi knows his weakness for bluffing and dishonesty, so they are thinking beyond relationship angst and the greater good for their friends and their future. Even if Chidi fell for Simone again, their overall goal is to save the gang as a whole, and prove that people who work together can be redeemable.

Edited by Chewy101

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On 2/3/2019 at 6:00 PM, Catfi9ht said:

My main issue with this season finale is similar to what was already posted above. What's the main motivation for the newcomers to become better humans?

Because Michael's plea to the Judge was if they could prove that people working together can better themselves, it's prove that going to Bad Place isn't necessary. 

I think it's funny how annoying the re wipe theme is. After all, isn't that a big torture in the Bad Place, repetitiveness?

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