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The Buffy Characters We Can't Stand

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1. It's as though the promo photographer told James, "Make yourself look as annoying as possible."  And he succeeded!  What's with the big drama-queen finger-splaying on the right hand while the left is hugging his side like a frightened child?  Go away, Spike.

4.  Where was this taken with the earth-tones and the fluorescent lighting and George Hertzberg smiling rather widely, considering the makeup? Set photograph from Lessons, with George/Adam wandering the "New Sunnydale High" set, even though First!Adam only appears in the basement?  Or is this from a con somewhere, and George broke out the "kinematically-redundant biomechanical demonoid" make-up (complete with floppy drive) for the organizers' benefit?

(Shan just could not get past the floppy drive; she called Adam "Floppy-Disk Drive Man" every time.  Somehow even she knew that by 2000 floppies were already on the way out [at the least, it should be a CD-ROM, right?] and I don't think she was even born by 2000.  The monster-makers at Optic Nerve really blew that design.

Come to think of it, I guess that this is more evidence that Initiative's finances are a mess.  As I noted in the The Initiative topic, Willow reacts badly to the Dingoes song on the tape, which Riley says is "a few bands from last year's party", meaning they've had to cut back on the live music from multiple bands to nothing, just a tape, and now we find that Maggie can't even afford half-decent IT for her pet demonoid.  The suits in DC must have really cut off her funding if she can't even procure a freaking CD-ROM drive, I'm just saying.)

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On ‎06‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 6:30 PM, lembergwatcher said:

No. Rona couldn't be more annoying than Anya or Buffy 'cause she appered in fewer episodes.

Buffy and Anya were funny and interesting, all Rhona ever did was moan!

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9 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy and Anya were funny and interesting, all Rhona ever did was moan!

Buffy and Anya were funny and interesting? In the final season? In what episode?
Wrong. Rhona didn't only moan, she slayed vampires as well.

Edited by lembergwatcher

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18 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Buffy and Anya were funny and interesting? In the final season? In what episode?
Wrong. Rhona didn't only moan, she slayed vampires as well.

In EVERY ep! Did we ever actually see Rhona bag a vamp?

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2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

In EVERY ep!

I have a feeling we're discussing two different shows.
 

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Did we ever actually see Rhona bag a vamp?

Wasn't she supposed to do it in Chosen - just like the rest of 'em? And I do remember her taking part in slaying the vamp inside the crypt in Potential.

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5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I have a feeling we're discussing two different shows.

I think that almost every episode contains at least one Anya line that is crafted to seem amusing and may even appear as such on paper.

The problem is that, IMO, so little work has been put into making Anya come across as empathetic and decent and more just treating her as a crass cartoon that for many in the audience, there's simply no interest in seeing her be "funny".  It's just empty joke-telling, without dealing with her overall grating nature, which is usually showcased in the exact same episodes where she's supposedly "amusingly blunt".

The next step down would be Andrew, who's a repulsive weasel for 98% of the time, and then he makes some longwinded Star Wars reference and we're supposed to be all "ha-ha, nerd!".  Where I'm mostly "STFU, already."  But that's JMO, I'll allow.

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21 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I have a feeling we're discussing two different shows.
 

Wasn't she supposed to do it in Chosen - just like the rest of 'em? And I do remember her taking part in slaying the vamp inside the crypt in Potential.

I don't remember her bagging any and give me some dialogue from her that wasn't complaining?

15 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I think that almost every episode contains at least one Anya line that is crafted to seem amusing and may even appear as such on paper.

The problem is that, IMO, so little work has been put into making Anya come across as empathetic and decent and more just treating her as a crass cartoon that for many in the audience, there's simply no interest in seeing her be "funny".  It's just empty joke-telling, without dealing with her overall grating nature, which is usually showcased in the exact same episodes where she's supposedly "amusingly blunt".

The next step down would be Andrew, who's a repulsive weasel for 98% of the time, and then he makes some longwinded Star Wars reference and we're supposed to be all "ha-ha, nerd!".  Where I'm mostly "STFU, already."  But that's JMO, I'll allow.

The whole point of Anya is to see her become more and more human over time. 

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4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I don't remember her bagging any and give me some dialogue from her that wasn't complaining?

She did it off-screen I guess :) I don't care much about her "complaining" or whatever 'cause she's just a tertiary character. She's way less irritating than Anya/Andrew and her attitude doesn't disturb me as much as Buffy's.

Edited by lembergwatcher

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6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The whole point of Anya is to see her become more and more human over time. 

Well, given that she's still making insensitive remarks to scared young girls about their possible brutal and painful deaths in End of Days and that Xander has to remind her not to call the girls "cannon fodder" in Chosen, it appears as though this "become more human over time" riff is taking its own sweet time…right up until the time when Anya herself runs out of time, for all time.  Poor timing?

Also, the fact that Anya dies where the girls she "comforts"/torments in End of Days do not would be irony, right?  Appreciated, then.

Edited by Halting Hex

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Funnily enough, Anya felt more human and less of a cartoon when she was merely the antagonist of the week in The Wish and Doppelgangland. The idea that she spent a millennium tricking people and yet didn't know the first thing about human customs and ways (especially since she was human for many years before becoming a vengeance demon) is preposterous. But hey, writing "funny alien" jokes was probably far easier than integrating Anya into the Scooby gang in some less artificial way.

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21 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

She did it off-screen I guess :) I don't care much about her "complaining" or whatever 'cause she's just a tertiary character. She's way less irritating than Anya/Andrew and her attitude doesn't disturb me as much as Buffy's.

Anya and Andrew are funny, Rhona is the voice of doom whilst Buffy is the  heroine 

19 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, given that she's still making insensitive remarks to scared young girls about their possible brutal and painful deaths in End of Days and that Xander has to remind her not to call the girls "cannon fodder" in Chosen, it appears as though this "become more human over time" riff is taking its own sweet time…right up until the time when Anya herself runs out of time, for all time.  Poor timing?

Also, the fact that Anya dies where the girls she "comforts"/torments in End of Days do not would be irony, right?  Appreciated, then.

Yes it is ironic that's the point and yes, her humanity never does quite finish up but she gives her life to save it?

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1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Anya and Andrew are funny

I guess we mean different things when we say "funny".

 

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Rhona is the voice of doom whilst Buffy is the  heroine

And yet it was Buffy telling everyone they're useless and calling Spike "the one person" watching her back.

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I despise Glory and her crappy storyline. Are we supposed to believe that this 4'9 blonde bimbo midget is a God? No. Just no.

Didn't give a crap about Adam or his storyline 

Hated that weird unnecessary trio. Forgot their names. (One of them got killed by Willow)

Didn't give a crap about Anya or Druisella 

 

Hated what the writers did with Xander. Nicholas Brandon has so much acting range. I don't know why they went with dorky Xander but it got tired after the first season. I wanted The Pack Xander. I wanted his personality to become affected by that darkness during the series. He would have been a lot more interesting to watch. They all did Nic Brendon dirty. 

Hated the potential slayers.

Spike in Season 7 was atrocious. Way to ruin a fan favourite. Him being awful was a part of his charm.

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21 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I guess we mean different things when we say "funny".

 

And yet it was Buffy telling everyone they're useless and calling Spike "the one person" watching her back.

No, she just wants them to step up. 

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11 hours ago, K42 said:

I despise Glory and her crappy storyline. Are we supposed to believe that this 4'9 blonde bimbo midget is a God? No. Just no.

Didn't give a crap about Adam or his storyline 

Hated that weird unnecessary trio. Forgot their names. (One of them got killed by Willow)

Didn't give a crap about Anya or Druisella 

 

Hated what the writers did with Xander. Nicholas Brandon has so much acting range. I don't know why they went with dorky Xander but it got tired after the first season. I wanted The Pack Xander. I wanted his personality to become affected by that darkness during the series. He would have been a lot more interesting to watch. They all did Nic Brendon dirty. 

Hated the potential slayers.

Spike in Season 7 was atrocious. Way to ruin a fan favourite. Him being awful was a part of his charm.

Was she blonde? I always took her as a redhead? But that's the whole point, she doesn't look like a hellgod any more than Buffy looks like the ultimate human warrior. Adam is terrible, Warren, Jonathon and the other one were more interesting, human and fallible. Dru is a marvellous character, tragic, evil, yet oddly appealing.

 Yes, it is interesting when any of the Scoobs goes dark, NB is truly scary in The Pack and as vampXander. You should check him out as the rapist in Private Practice. Not all the Potentials were bad but they took up too much screentime. Many fans complained about neutered Spike in s7, partly why they brought back bad boy Spike in Get it Done.   

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3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Was she blonde? I always took her as a redhead? But that's the whole point, she doesn't look like a hellgod any more than Buffy looks like the ultimate human warrior. Adam is terrible, Warren, Jonathon and the other one were more interesting, human and fallible. Dru is a marvellous character, tragic, evil, yet oddly appealing.

 Yes, it is interesting when any of the Scoobs goes dark, NB is truly scary in The Pack and as vampXander. You should check him out as the rapist in Private Practice. Not all the Potentials were bad but they took up too much screentime. Many fans complained about neutered Spike in s7, partly why they brought back bad boy Spike in Get it Done.   

I did. That's why I mentioned that Nicolas Brendon has so much acting range. He can send shivers down your spine if he chooses to. I can overlook everything I mentioned above but this is one thing I'm never forgiving Whedon for. I love Xander in all his dorkiness but some darkness in him would have been even better. If I'm not mistaken, he was the only one who never got to have a dark side. We had evil Willow, badass dark magic Giles, and bitchy rebellious Buffy. Even on Criminal Minds, they should have done more with his character than be Garcia (the tech analyst's lapdog). I love Nic Brendon. There's something about him that's so sexy. 

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On 12.12.2018 at 3:46 PM, K42 said:

If I'm not mistaken, he was the only one who never got to have a dark side. We had evil Willow, badass dark magic Giles, and bitchy rebellious Buffy.

Because Whedon probably didn't consider Xander "cool" enough to play the bad guy. Being born or going bad in the Buffyverse is like having some sort of coolness certificate signed by Joss Almighty himself (The Trio aside, 'cause they are just the sorry excuses for villains). Sometimes it seems like "evil" is a code for "cool" in the BtVS writers' vocabulary. God forbid Xander moves up to the big league due to going a little darker.

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1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Because Whedon probably didn't consider Xander "cool" enough to play the bad guy. Being born or going bad in the Buffyverse is like having some sort of coolness certificate signed by Joss Almighty himself (The Trio aside, 'cause they are just the sorry excuses for villains). Sometimes it seems like "evil" is a code for "cool" in the BtVS writers' vocabulary. God forbid Xander moves up to the big league due to going a little darker.

Such a shame. Being bad would have suited Nicholas Brendon a lot. I truly believe that he would have "out-acted" them all had he been given a dark side. Nicolas Brendon has a very seductive stare. 

buffy_xander1.jpg

Screen-Shot-2013-10-29-at-11.12.31-PM.pn

buffy106.jpg


Hyena+Xander+2.jpg

xanderpack.gif


Those are some serious eyes..

Edited by K42

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On ‎13‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 2:25 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Because Whedon probably didn't consider Xander "cool" enough to play the bad guy. Being born or going bad in the Buffyverse is like having some sort of coolness certificate signed by Joss Almighty himself (The Trio aside, 'cause they are just the sorry excuses for villains). Sometimes it seems like "evil" is a code for "cool" in the BtVS writers' vocabulary. God forbid Xander moves up to the big league due to going a little darker.

Xander is Joss' avatar, so he can be funny and likeable and useful but he can never be cool because Joss doesn't kid himself that he is. 

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1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Xander is Joss' avatar, so he can be funny and likeable and useful but he can never be cool because Joss doesn't kid himself that he is.

If Xander is Joss' avatar, than Joss surely has some gross emotional problems and should have undergone medical treatment instead of writing shitty episodes like Family, The Gift and Chosen to name a few or forcing Spuffy down our throats. And there is a big difference between "not cool" or "not cool enough" and pathetic buffoon who can't do anything right. There's no need to make Xander wear leather, ride motorbikes, cast the spells, play the guitar or defeat monsters in the wink of an eye. Just don't degrade the guy into some sort of excuse for his former self.  Spare us Xanya travesty. Let Xander remain the integral part of both the gang and B/W lives like he used to, don't turn him into glorified extra or some cannon fodder for no reason.  

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On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 12:43 PM, lembergwatcher said:

If Xander is Joss' avatar, than Joss surely has some gross emotional problems and should have undergone medical treatment instead of writing shitty episodes like Family, The Gift and Chosen to name a few or forcing Spuffy down our throats. And there is a big difference between "not cool" or "not cool enough" and pathetic buffoon who can't do anything right. There's no need to make Xander wear leather, ride motorbikes, cast the spells, play the guitar or defeat monsters in the wink of an eye. Just don't degrade the guy into some sort of excuse for his former self.  Spare us Xanya travesty. Let Xander remain the integral part of both the gang and B/W lives like he used to, don't turn him into glorified extra or some cannon fodder for no reason.  

1. Love those eps

2. Love Xanya

I'm afraid we may have to agree to disagree. 

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Funny, I've liked the way Xander was allowed to grow.  By the end of the series---though it's less visible at the very end because nobody's building anything in Sunnydale---he's grown from being very determinedly a failure to being the boss of a construction crew in very little time, and in stark material terms is the closest thing to a functional adult of all the Gang. 

...and though he did it in a profoundly bad way and for a profoundly stupid reason, his decision not to marry Anya was the closest thing to a mature decision I can see from any of them.

(I lost all sympathy with Buffy the moment she decided that her sister's life was worth letting the world end in horrendous pain...which would have ended her sister's life. Only a nonsensical anus-pull at the end of Season 5 prevented this from being the case, and it worked only because she had the writers on her side.)

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5 minutes ago, Ayn Marx 666 said:

Funny, I've liked the way Xander was allowed to grow.  By the end of the series---though it's less visible at the very end because nobody's building anything in Sunnydale---he's grown from being very determinedly a failure to being the boss of a construction crew in very little time, and in stark material terms is the closest thing to a functional adult of all the Gang. 

...and though he did it in a profoundly bad way and for a profoundly stupid reason, his decision not to marry Anya was the closest thing to a mature decision I can see from any of them.

(I lost all sympathy with Buffy the moment she decided that her sister's life was worth letting the world end in horrendous pain...which would have ended her sister's life. Only a nonsensical anus-pull at the end of Season 5 prevented this from being the case, and it worked only because she had the writers on her side.)

Agree on Xander, not on Buffy, she knew both she and Dawn would die and the rift would be heeled. 

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2 hours ago, Ayn Marx 666 said:

Funny, I've liked the way Xander was allowed to grow.  By the end of the series---though it's less visible at the very end because nobody's building anything in Sunnydale---he's grown from being very determinedly a failure to being the boss of a construction crew in very little time, and in stark material terms is the closest thing to a functional adult of all the Gang.

1. I guess your post is in the wrong thread since this one is dedicated to unlikable characters,

2. I don't think it's right to confuse character growth with life achievements. Buffy or Willow succeeded/became more proficient in their respective fields over the years, which doesn't mean both changed for the better as personalities.

3. Xander's academic performance might have been very far from perfect throughout the first three seasons, yet it was the same Xander who saved his friends and offered help on many occasions. Doesn't sound like failure to me.

4. Somehow Xander's stupid relationship with Anya doesn't support the theory of him becoming more mature in the later seasons.

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8 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

1. I guess your post is in the wrong thread since this one is dedicated to unlikable characters,

2. I don't think it's right to confuse character growth with life achievements. Buffy or Willow succeeded/became more proficient in their respective fields over the years, which doesn't mean both changed for the better as personalities.

3. Xander's academic performance might have been very far from perfect throughout the first three seasons, yet it was the same Xander who saved his friends and offered help on many occasions. Doesn't sound like failure to me.

4. Somehow Xander's stupid relationship with Anya doesn't support the theory of him becoming more mature in the later seasons.

Surely him ending his relationship with Anya proves otherwise?

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On 12/13/2018 at 10:58 AM, K42 said:

Such a shame. Being bad would have suited Nicholas Brendon a lot. I truly believe that he would have "out-acted" them all had he been given a dark side. Nicolas Brendon has a very seductive stare. 

buffy_xander1.jpg

Screen-Shot-2013-10-29-at-11.12.31-PM.pn

buffy106.jpg


Hyena+Xander+2.jpg

xanderpack.gif


Those are some serious eyes..

I'm really glad you brought this up, especially with the screen grabs.

This is my first time watching the show and I'm on the 4th episode of the second season, and I really have a problem with Xander. I think the episode you highlighted above was really where the problem started. I don't like rape scenes or almost-rape scenes. I know I'm not alone there, but I feel like the show wants me to let Xander off the hook because he was under a magical spell. Here's the thing - I just don't see how Buffy got past it. He literally had her on her back and was leaning over her taunting her that if she liked bad boys so much, he would now be a bad boy and she could like him.

Would any girl who had a close male friend who is bigger than her be able to stay friends with him after he got onto the off-ramp and was headed towards rapeville? I think not. I know plenty of guys and girls who immediately distance themselves from any friends who are interested in dating when they don't share those same feelings. That's a really awkward thing. But not only do Buffy and Willow (who has feelings for Xander all the while) continue to be friends with Xander in spite of him having done what he did, but Xander continues to openly flirt with a Buffy all the while...and reference how he doesn't like other men being around her in any capacity.

We've seen these kinds of unrequited crushes on other shows and I feel like they've been handled with a lot more grace then here. I've seen Once More With Feeling (and nothing else so no spoilers please!) so I know Xander eventually gets a girlfriend and probably moves on from his crush, but I feel like he's being a major asshole by not keeping his mouth shut about Buffy and accepting the terms she set forth for their relationship.

Buffy just stands around and smiles and says nothing and Willow does the same and Xander just keeps putting his foot in his mouth so badly but not in a way that's cute or funny. It just feels like harassment. And by the second season, other people know that Buffy is a Vampire Slayer so it's not like she's stuck with these two people being the only two who know her secret. Buffy being attractive and somewhat pleasant could easily make friends with pretty much anybody in the school, so I don't know why she continues to allow this relationship with Xander to go on.

And what's really sad is I actually like Xander when he's just being adorkable and buffoonish. That's okay with me. I think the actor does a great job of it. But I almost feel, and I may be completely off base here, that Xander is acting the way Joss would act in the same situation. I feel like he's the stand-in for the writer somehow, and maybe that's not fair of me to say...but maybe it is given what's going on. I mean the show is full of super-powered super thin cute girls and Xander's walking around the perpetual virgin who can't get a date and is openly commenting on it and salivating about all the girls, including those he is supposed to respect as his friends and not treat as potential bedmates. If he were going on about his opinions on women with his male buddies, that would be one thing. It would still be kind of gross, but it would be boy talk. But he's doing this in front of Buffy.

When she actually had to tell him she didn't share his feelings, I was really surprised by the fact that she had to repeat herself three times. And Xander walked away angry with her! If you have to ask someone if they like you, chances are you know there's a big possibility that they don't, otherwise they would have made it clear by now. So Xander went into that conversation knowing Buffy probably wasn't feeling the same way he was, and yet he was almost demanding that she give him a shot and force herself to develop feelings. Dude! What's wrong with you?

The show was written by a witty oddball man who was interested in all sorts of geeky things. I could see him very much relating to Xander and Xander representing that part of him. So it makes me uncomfortable to think that the world of the show was created by a guy who can't help but self insert into this universe filled with thin sexy women and then comment on how frustrating it is that they won't sleep with him.

Just my two cents.

Again, I'm only at the beginning of season 2 so please don't spoil things for me. I'm not sure I'll make it through the entire show, but I'll go as far as I can.

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7 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

I think the episode you highlighted above was really where the problem started

You mean you have a problem with Xander because of the thing he did while being possessed and thus having no control over his actions? And you choose to ignore the fact that apart from that incident the guy didn't have a habit to harass his girl friends on a daily basis?

7 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

I just don't see how Buffy got past it

A very little spoiler for ya: keep watching the show (especially the seasons 2-3) and you'll learn Buffy can get past many things. Even worse things.

8 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

But not only do Buffy and Willow (who has feelings for Xander all the while) continue to be friends with Xander

So you expected Buffy to end her friendship with Xander after the whole hyena thing? If so chances were Buffy's dead and rotting corpse would've stayed in the Master's lair forever... (S.01E.12 Prophecy Girl).

8 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

I mean the show is full of super-powered super thin cute girls and Xander's walking around the perpetual virgin who can't get a date and is openly commenting on it and salivating about all the girls, including those he is supposed to respect as his friends and not treat as potential bedmates. If he were going on about his opinions on women with his male buddies, that would be one thing. It would still be kind of gross, but it would be boy talk. But he's doing this in front of Buffy.

I don't understand how can you expect a 16-year-old teenager to act like a level-headed adult. Yes, Xander can say inappropriate things or do some stupid/immature stuff time after time (just like vast majority of people do). That however doesn't make him bad, evil, rotten or the problematic character in any way, shape or form. And one more little spoiler: with regards to immaturity Buffy beats Xander 5 to 0 most of the time.   

8 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

So Xander went into that conversation knowing Buffy probably wasn't feeling the same way he was, and yet he was almost demanding that she give him a shot and force herself to develop feelings. Dude! What's wrong with you?

Nothing's wrong actually. It's just sometimes underage 16-year-old teens (boys and girls alike) have a tendency to act impulsively and immature. That however doesn't make them bad or problematic. Sometimes people say and do things they shouldn't say or do, but that's human nature, I guess. 

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New to Buffy, binge watched recently...

Willow got on my nerves and then boring Tara came along. I ended up ff’ing their scenes. 

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On 11/19/2019 at 6:57 PM, DanaMB said:

New to Buffy, binge watched recently...

Willow got on my nerves and then boring Tara came along. I ended up ff’ing their scenes. 

You don't come from Bizarro world do you?

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8 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

You don't come from Bizarro world do you?

Maybe! I kind of thought my opinion would not be a popular one. Part of it may be that I don’t have the close tie to the series a lot of people do since I didn’t watch it the first go round and just recently binged it (very quickly too). The in depth analysis I find from a lot posters here really impresses me and shows me that I’m just a casual viewer, but still a fan. If that makes sense. 

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15 hours ago, DanaMB said:

Maybe! I kind of thought my opinion would not be a popular one. Part of it may be that I don’t have the close tie to the series a lot of people do since I didn’t watch it the first go round and just recently binged it (very quickly too). The in depth analysis I find from a lot posters here really impresses me and shows me that I’m just a casual viewer, but still a fan. If that makes sense. 

Keep with it, where are you now?

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1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Are you watching Angel?

Finished that one, too. I broke my foot and had to stay off it as much as possible the last 3 months so I had a lot of time to binge. Really liked Angel until season 4. Had a hard time with season 5 but it got better halfway through. 

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14 hours ago, DanaMB said:

Finished that one, too. I broke my foot and had to stay off it as much as possible the last 3 months so I had a lot of time to binge. Really liked Angel until season 4. Had a hard time with season 5 but it got better halfway through. 

Try Dollhouse/Firefly.

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