S03.E11: Songbird Road, Part One

[CrystalBlue]

15 minutes ago, DebbieM4 said:

They might have been expecting official notification, but they also might not have.   We don't know the state of their minds at the time (especially his father)  or what was said.  I can easily see Jack staying one step ahead of them:  "I was there when it happened, I received the notification, I have the documentation", etc.  And that's if they asked for any proof at all, which I think is unlikely.

I'm not saying that's what happened.  I'm just saying that I think it's completely possible they believed Nicky had died.  

Well it's a TV show.  You are free to believe what you think fictional characters would do.  I'm waiting for Part Two to see what happened.

[debraran]

Pretty good interview about show with writers. It doesn't seem like they are going to delve much into Nicky's life without them and I hope he does get to know his family now They don't need to show the "catch up" conversations but it must be overwhelming to be exposed to so much so soon. I hope he sticks around for a bit and then visits.

Watching the fishing part again, I realized the boy dropped the grenade, not Nicky (although it doesn't matter really) and that Nicky was catatonic for a while they said in the interview, so unable to speak.They leave it open whether they take him or Rebecca goes there. I hope they take him.

https://www.thewrap.com/this-is-us-nicky-not-dead-jack-lie-vietnam-kevin-songbird-road/

Edited January 25, 2019 by debraran

[DebbieM4]

8 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

Well it's a TV show.  You are free to believe what you think fictional characters would do.  I'm waiting for Part Two to see what happened.

 I said pretty much the same thing upthread.  There is more to unfold about this, for sure.

(I have no idea what fictional characters would do.  I was simply sharing my thoughts about what possibly could have happened.)

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, Snewtsie said:

I am glad they are tearing down the illusion that Jack was so perfect in every way.  It's bugged me since the show began.  This new side of him will make his character more true to life and more interesting for us viewers.

Personally though, I think Rebecca would resist negative info on Jack and even become hostile to anyone who doesn't hold up the saint image.  It's been my experience that surviving spouses (& parents, and sometimes adult kids) cling to their to their idealistic 'memories' of the one they lost, at all costs.  

I have a suspicion that Rebecca found out that Nicky was alive but kept silent out of respect for her husband.   We know that Jack's AA notebook survived the fire.  I can see her reading it and putting it together.   I do believe that Jack would have contacted Nicky while he was working the program,  he just never got the opportunity.   I can see him putting this visit off, maybe waiting for the kids to graduate and move out of the house.  To me this is the ultimate tragedy, never getting the chance to clear the air.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, PRgal said:

I guess Nicky doesn't have a TV - otherwise, he SHOULD recognize Kevin (since he's a celeb), shouldn't he?  Or at least have a vague idea of him?  

If I recall what was said in earlier episodes, Kevin's fame is solely from just one show: The Manny. If Nicky didn't watch that ONE show, he wouldn't know who Kevin is, especially since he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would watch crappy shows like TMZ that focus on celebrity news (aka the kind of shows that might have had stories about the play he did or his drunk driving incident).

The only other big/high profile project Kevin has done is that movie but since it's a war movie, I can imagine Nicky wouldn't be interested in seeing that either just on principle and changing the channel whenever there was an ad for it on tv.

[ShadowFacts]

53 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I have a suspicion that Rebecca found out that Nicky was alive but kept silent out of respect for her husband.   We know that Jack's AA notebook survived the fire.  I can see her reading it and putting it together.   I do believe that Jack would have contacted Nicky while he was working the program,  he just never got the opportunity.   I can see him putting this visit off, maybe waiting for the kids to graduate and move out of the house.  To me this is the ultimate tragedy, never getting the chance to clear the air.  

I don't know if she knew or not, but from what she said to Miguel, asking if she could have done more, why she didn't ask more questions, it seems like maybe she didn't know anything for certain.  But I do think the way she acted in the flashbacks, she suspected he was not talking about just anybody from Vietnam, it was maybe his brother.  She was so circumspect, she didn't even ask him why he lied about where he was going in the first place, which would have been a natural question.  Kevin had the box of his dad's mementos, including the Vietnam stuff and postcard.  Did he get that from Rebecca, I don't remember?  If she ever saw that postcard it was cryptic enough not to be definitive. 

[Violetgoblin6]

On 1/23/2019 at 10:26 AM, NicoleMN6 said:

What’s saddest to me is that Nicky WAS finally getting better in Vietnam, during that fishing trip with the little boy. (He was laughing and able to enjoy the innocence of the boy instead of envisioning him as his enemy.) Until the accident.

I’m glad, it only for Rebecca’s sake, that we see that St. Jack kept a huge secret and was not such a saint after all. It’s good for Miguel, too, come to think of it.

Jack’s parents had to have known about Nicky, at least that he came back from the war, though it’s possible he faked his death to them afterwards. Jack’s mom must have died some years before the kids are 9 years old; they probably don’t even remember her, since she’s never been mentioned. 

In the thanksgiving episode with Pilgrim Rick Jack mentions that his parents are dead. We know his dad died summer of 1989. So yeah, she must have died before they were 9.

[debraran]

11 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I am looking forward to seeing Rebecca's reaction to this whole thing.  

She didn't tell Randall (or anyone else, IIRC) about meeting his biological father until after Randall found out about it.

Jack didn't tell anyone that Nicky was alive.

This could get real interesting.   She can't be all that outraged at Jack.  Or can she?

Well, 2 wrongs never make it right but it feels better to say it sometimes, "You did this too!"  I would have liked to see Jack's reaction when they found William and Randall temporarily wouldn't speak to Rebecca. It would have been interesting.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

I am looking forward to seeing Rebecca's reaction to this whole thing.  

She didn't tell Randall (or anyone else, IIRC) about meeting his biological father until after Randall found out about it.

Jack didn't tell anyone that Nicky was alive.

This could get real interesting.   She can't be all that outraged at Jack.  Or can she?

It will be interesting to see how she integrates this information at this late date.  Sadness, disappointment, regret that she didn't do more; she already seemed to be going in that direction with her talk with Miguel.  It's certainly disturbing, and it will all come alive if she meets him face to face. 

[doodlebug]

15 hours ago, PRgal said:

I guess Nicky doesn't have a TV - otherwise, he SHOULD recognize Kevin (since he's a celeb), shouldn't he?  Or at least have a vague idea of him?  

Even if he had seen Kevin on TV, seeing him out of context so unexpectedly might have thrown him off and he wouldn’t have realized it.

I once unexpectedly encountered a very famous, easily recognized celebrity And it took me several minutes to realize why they looked and sounded so familiar and I am not an elderly alcoholic recluse.

13 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

The parents would still be expecting official notification from the U.S. Army, especially the elder Mr. Pearson.  To just tell his mom and dad that Nicky went blooey up in a puff of smoke from a bomb would still need documentation.

When Nicky was evacuated for mental health care, his parents would’ve automatically been notified and there’s no way that Jack, out in the boonies in Vietnam Nam, could have interfered. A very big plot hole.

[Pallas]

Jack's losing his brother adds texture to his determination to immediately adopt a son within hours of losing one. And Jack's fervor before Rebecca gave birth, when telling both her and Dr. K that no matter what, they were going to walk out of the hospital with three babies, damn it. No man left behind: not on this mission, not with his family. 

[ClareWalks]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

Even if he had seen Kevin on TV, seeing him out of context so unexpectedly might have thrown him off and he wouldn’t have realized it.

I once unexpectedly encountered a very famous, easily recognized celebrity And it took me several minutes to realize why they looked and sounded so familiar and I am not an elderly alcoholic recluse.

And I am the sort of person who, even if I saw someone who seriously looked just like (insert celeb here), I'd be too nervous to ask just in case I was wrong. Especially if I were in a random place where I would have no expectation of seeing (celeb). I once could have sworn I saw Matthew Broderick in first class on my flight, but it was a flight out of the Milwaukee airport so I just assumed I was mistaken.

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

When Nicky was evacuated for mental health care, his parents would’ve automatically been notified and there’s no way that Jack, out in the boonies in Vietnam Nam, could have interfered. A very big plot hole.

Yes, a plot hole if they weren't in the know, but we aren't sure of that yet.  They might have known, Nicky might have not wanted them to see him like he was, maybe the mom at least was in some contact, and after she died, he really deteriorated more, etc.  That was her baby, I hold out hope that there was some connection, however brief.  The more I think of the guy, the more haunted I am.  He's emblematic of so many others like him, crossing time, wars, traumas.  

[NicoleMN6]

Rebecca probably feels a mix of remorse and relief. Remorse that she didn’t ask more questions when Jack (and his mom?) were still alive, remorse that her marriage was so full of secrets after all... and relief that she wasn’t the only one hiding a huge secret and being the “bad” one after all.

Miguel wins!

[balmz]

10 hours ago, Violetgoblin6 said:

In the thanksgiving episode with Pilgrim Rick Jack mentions that his parents are dead. We know his dad died summer of 1989. So yeah, she must have died before they were 9.

maybe he lied about that too and they are still alive

[Driad]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

The more I think of the guy, the more haunted I am.  He's emblematic of so many others like him, crossing time, wars, traumas.  

This reminded me of the West Wing episode "In Excelsis Deo."  A homeless veteran died and a staffer arranged a funeral with an honor guard.  The president said, "If we start pulling strings like this, don't you think every homeless veteran will come out of the woodwork?"  The staffer replied, "I can only hope so, sir."

[Neurochick]

21 hours ago, chocolatine said:

There's a huge difference between not wanting a relative around your family and telling everyone that said relative is dead. Jack could have told Rebecca that his brother is troubled and had done bad things in the war, so Jack doesn't want him to meet the kids, but that he would be visiting him occasionally and try to help him get better. 

Maybe.  But it also shows that Jack wasn't exactly St. Jack, that he had quite a few flaws.  What Jack did sadly happens a lot in real life.  People told a family member has died, when they haven't.

[Ohmo]

On 1/22/2019 at 10:04 PM, Spartan Girl said:

s bad as I feel for Nicky, I can't help understanding why Jack cut him off after that.

I agree, and I don't necessarily think that it was solely about this incident.  I think this incident is just what broke Jack.  I'm also a fan of the term "choose not to deal with."  I believe that family is not an infinite card to play.  I think Jack was just like "You know what, Nicky, just do your thing, but I'm no longer interested.  If you want to live in a trailer, great.  If you want to drink your ass off, great, but that doesn't mean that Jack has to engage just because they're related.  Jack didn't wish Nicky any ill will.  He just asked him to stay away.  Nicky wanting to tell Jack about the accident is Nicky wanting Jack to engage.  It doesn't mean Jack has to.

I have family like this.  Some I don't like.  Some I don't trust, and some I'm just generally over.  Go do whatever it is that makes you happy.  Just do it away from me.  Jack's been bailing Nicky out of messes for years.  Their childhood I understand, but Nicky was a hot mess in Vietnam, and as we see now, he's still a hot mess.

My family always says that I'm cynical when I say this, but it's true.   At its base level, your family is created because a bunch of people (who aren't you) had sex.  Some people feel very strongly about that bond---that it means everything, but I feel that at some point, behavior matters more.  I think Jack just got to that point, whether it was an accident or not.

[chocolatine]

The more I think about Jack lying about Nicky's death, the more I dislike Jack. It's not just the fact that he lied, but also that this particular lie brought him undeserved sympathy, as we saw in the road trip episode with Rebecca. I can see how Rebecca would have mixed emotions, to say the least, that she walked on eggshells around Jack all this time regarding this subject, and it turns out he lied to her for 26 years.

[Ohmo]

On 1/22/2019 at 10:26 PM, debraran said:

Jack was supposed to take care of him, he loved him.

Why was jack "supposed" to take care of him?  This is where family gets abusive, and I'm not talking in the physical way (although Nicky and Jack did have that do deal with.)  The "supposed to" only works in one direction---Jack's apparently.  Nicky tells him it was an accident, and Jack's "supposed" to just say okie dokie?  We know that Jack a) enlisted in Vietnam to be near Nicky and b) use his clout to get Nicky transferred to his unit in an effort to help straighten him out.  Nicky was not interested, threw it back in Jack's face, AND did something irresponsible (accident or not) that led to the death of a child.  Nicky's a taker, not a giver, and jack had reached the limits of what he could take.

[Ohmo]

Re:  it was an accident vs. on purpose

Doesn't matter because what that's essentially saying is that Nicky telling Jack that it was an accident would have been the single and only thing that caused Nicky's life to be what it was.  That he would have magically somehow not lived in a trailer for decades and made better choices if Jack had only listened to "poor Nicky."

Utter bullshit.  Nicky is/was responsible for his own life.  The allure of "just if this one thing happens" then family member X will straighten his/her life around is strong, but bogus.  Nicky isn't STILL in that trailer because of Jack.  He's there because of himself and conveniently blaming it on Jack.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Ohmo

[debraran]

Jack couldn’t fix Nicky, getting enlisted was a crazy thing to do and setting his mom up to lose 2 sons. He probably would have gotten a psych discharge or worked it through in real life. Jacks role was to guard him, that’s what was setup from birth. That was his dad and moms doing and jack fell in line.I thought it was brave of Nicky to not go to Canada but sad since he probably didn’t want to be cut off from jack and mom. I never got impression Nicky needed him, just that he was sensitive. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by debraran

[chocolatine]

7 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

He's there because of himself and conveniently blaming it on Jack.

Nicky isn't blaming anything on Jack. He signed his postcards as C. K. so as not to expose Jack's lie to anyone. He said he lives in a trailer because it's easier for him than living in a house. He was worried that he ruined Jack's life, and visibly relieved when Jack told him his life is good. All he was asking from Jack was the chance to talk about what happened in Vietnam.

[Neurochick]

57 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

I agree, and I don't necessarily think that it was solely about this incident.  I think this incident is just what broke Jack.  I'm also a fan of the term "choose not to deal with."  I believe that family is not an infinite card to play.  I think Jack was just like "You know what, Nicky, just do your thing, but I'm no longer interested.  If you want to live in a trailer, great.  If you want to drink your ass off, great, but that doesn't mean that Jack has to engage just because they're related.  Jack didn't wish Nicky any ill will.  He just asked him to stay away.  Nicky wanting to tell Jack about the accident is Nicky wanting Jack to engage.  It doesn't mean Jack has to.

I have family like this.  Some I don't like.  Some I don't trust, and some I'm just generally over.  Go do whatever it is that makes you happy.  Just do it away from me.  Jack's been bailing Nicky out of messes for years.  Their childhood I understand, but Nicky was a hot mess in Vietnam, and as we see now, he's still a hot mess.

My family always says that I'm cynical when I say this, but it's true.   At its base level, your family is created because a bunch of people (who aren't you) had sex.  Some people feel very strongly about that bond---that it means everything, but I feel that at some point, behavior matters more.  I think Jack just got to that point, whether it was an accident or not.

If I could like this post a million times I would.  This is very true.  I have friends who have toxic family members and they just tell them, "you do you," and that's it.  Those people ARE dead to them.  They don't want their own families dealing with them.  Just because you're related by blood means just that, you're related by blood.  That's why you hear people say, "family of origin" vs "family of affiliation."  

[ShadowFacts]

58 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

I have family like this.  Some I don't like.  Some I don't trust, and some I'm just generally over.  Go do whatever it is that makes you happy.  Just do it away from me.  Jack's been bailing Nicky out of messes for years.  Their childhood I understand, but Nicky was a hot mess in Vietnam, and as we see now, he's still a hot mess.

I don't remember seeing Nicky being bailed out of any mess until Vietnam, which was the mother of all messes.  Up until being drafted, he had been the little brother who Jack protected from their father, a kid who liked science and was on his way to maybe becoming a doctor.  Jack had a history of trying to be a protector, of his mother also, but I don't think Nicky had a history of being in messes for years. 

14 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

Doesn't matter because what that's essentially saying is that Nicky telling Jack that it was an accident would have been the single and only thing that caused Nicky's live to be what it was.  That he would have magically somehow not lived in a trailer for decades and made better choices if Jack had only listened to "poor Nicky."

I disagree.  Jack shutting him out wasn't the single factor in Nicky's life being what it was, and there was not going to be magic involved if Jack had given him a chance to say what he had to say.  In one of the post cards Nicky asked for just 5 minutes.  That's all he wanted -- he wasn't asking to be rescued or taken in by Jack.  I don't think that was asking too much.  Completely cutting someone off as if they were dead, not giving them 5 minutes after driving hours and reminiscing, was overreaction, and kind of wiped out years of their being close.  Sad. 

[Ohmo]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Maybe.  But it also shows that Jack wasn't exactly St. Jack, that he had quite a few flaws.  What Jack did sadly happens a lot in real life.  People told a family member has died, when they haven't.

Telling people that you're estranged from family often doesn't go over well.  Some can't comprehend how that can possibly be.  In the minds of many, if you're estranged from  members of your family, then something must inherently be wrong with you

[Ohmo]

6 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I disagree.  Jack shutting him out wasn't the single factor in Nicky's life being what it was, and there was not going to be magic involved if Jack had given him a chance to say what he had to say.  In one of the post cards Nicky asked for just 5 minutes.  That's all he wanted -- he wasn't asking to be rescued or taken in by Jack.  I don't think that was asking too much.  Completely cutting someone off as if they were dead, not giving them 5 minutes after driving hours and reminiscing, was overreaction, and kind of wiped out years of their being close.  Sad. 

Well. we'll agree to disagree,  I don't think the "just five minutes" was just five minutes.  It's whatever the person who's saying "just five minutes" is hoping will be enough to get you to fall for it again.

[kili]

Quote

We know that Jack a) enlisted in Vietnam to be near Nicky and b) use his clout to get Nicky transferred to his unit in an effort to help straighten him out.  Nicky was not interested, threw it back in Jack's face,

I'm leaning to Nicky's side on these two points.

Jack's plan to enlist to be near Nicky was not a well-thought out plan. There was very little guarantee that Jack would get anywhere near NIcky, have any ability to help Nicky or that he would even arrive in country before NIcky's situation changed. It was a crazy Hail Mary of a plan and that it even kind of worked is by extreme luck and not design. Jack should have tried to help from stateside (still a long shot, but probably much greater chance). Nicky was crushed knowing this his brother (whose health was judged too fragile for war) had joined up and risked his life and his sanity to join Nicky in a horrible situation. That did not make Nicky feel better. It made him feel worse. What is the first thing he says to his long-lost brother? "If you die out here, that's not on me." He says that because he instantly feels at fault.

Then, Jack decides to have him assigned to a situation that is arguably much worse for some do-it-yourself rehab. You can't rehab somebody who doesn't want rehab. You can't rehab somebody by just taking their drugs away and not dealing with the underlying reasons they started doing drugs. You probably shouldn't try rehabbing somebody by taking them back to exactly the situation where they started doing drugs in the first place ("You went off the rails when you were embedded in a village living amongst the villagers who betrayed your mentor/CO and turned him into hamburger? Let's take you to a situation where you will be embedded in a village living amongst villagers who just might do the same thing to your brother/CO!"). And it is pretty tough to rehab somebody in two weeks. Let's compare the two week rehab program Jack designed for Nicky to the one that Kevin got. It's not difficult to figure out why one appears to be a pretty good success and the other was abject failure.

Jack has been criticized for doing grand gestures in the past, but these were the grandest and craziest so far. Their chance at success was so minimal, that he actually deserved a wake up call. I commend Jack for trying to help his brother, but not all plans deserve praise. Some deserve criticism.

Quote

AND did something irresponsible (accident or not) that led to the death of a child. 

Taking a suicidal, unstable junky from the relatively safe confines of an official military base which had built-in safe-guards for access to drugs and munitions to put that junky in an environment that worsened his PTSD, exposed children/civilians to his erratic behavior, allowed access to drugs kept in a backpack and where he could get easily obtain a  box of grenades could also be seen as irresponsible. Jack was determined to fix things and he ignored the warnings of his brother, his brother's CO, the other soldiers and common sense itself.

I love Jack as a character. I'm not blaming him for the child's death. But I'm not going to congratulate him or praise him for his patently stupid "I'm going to war to fix my brother" plan which only made things worse.  Jack's fundamental flaw is that he thinks he has to be the one to fix everything. It's what got him killed saving a dog and a bunch of mementos - nobody thought that was a good trade.

Edited January 26, 2019 by kili

[meirav]

On 1/22/2019 at 7:12 PM, ams1001 said:

I'll admit I was expecting the kid to pick up a grenade when his back was turned. Show actually had me a little nervous (partly because I was afraid they'd do something more graphic and I didn't want to see that).

I looked away. I still don't know how they  did the scene.

[auntiemel]

40 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

Telling people that you're estranged from family often doesn't go over well.  Some can't comprehend how that can possibly be.  In the minds of many, if you're estranged from  members of your family, then something must inherently be wrong with you

OMG, yes!!! And also the endless conversations where they try to convince you to reconnect with them, and you have to just constantly re-explain and re-justify your decisions. It's freaking exhausting. Good lord! There have been many times that I wished I had just told someone that fill-in-the-blank-family-member was dead from the jump. It would have been so much easier!

[Ohmo]

50 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Nicky isn't blaming anything on Jack. He signed his postcards as C. K. so as not to expose Jack's lie to anyone. He said he lives in a trailer because it's easier for him than living in a house. He was worried that he ruined Jack's life, and visibly relieved when Jack told him his life is good. All he was asking from Jack was the chance to talk about what happened in Vietnam.

The operative words here are "Nicky said."  Nicky says he once had a house or lives in a trailer because it's easier.  Doesn't make it true.  My estranged relatives say a lot of things, too.  They sound great to the outside world.  too bad it's all BS, and I know it's all BS.  Rebecca's response is telling to me.  Like others have mentioned, I think Rebecca knows something about Nicky.  Something that Jack told her and because of it, they mutually decided to keep the kids away from Nicky---and I don't think it's the accident vs. on purpose thing.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Ohmo

[debraran]

23 hours ago, DebbieM4 said:

I understand that.  But what I said is that in their grief, they might not have been focused on the particulars.  And Jack might have told them there was no body to bury.

My point was that it's certainly possible the parents would have believed Nicky was dead even if he actually wasn't.   They had no reason to believe that Jack - of all people! - would not be telling them the truth.

You get paperwork and discharge notifications . No way the army lied to them. I’ll see how they set it up next week.

Milo himself thought  Jack acted odd but it wasn’t his call.  Nicky was never an addict or problem before. How could jack be tired of it?  He was smart, kind and lacking in some self esteem.  Not everyone who needs mental health treatment get it without a loving family and even then.  Nicky was in a hell that many broke under, no shame in that. Jack made it worse going and butting in with his Pearson speeches. Jack never spoke to him really as an addict outside of Vietnam. He left his brother catatonic with no support. His fellow comrades tried to sympathize, tell him the Army would "fix him" (laughable) but that was when he shut him out. All the years before meant nothing. That's what confused Milo, the eating of the soul anger. It didn't fit over a long time span. He wasn't a doctor, he should have left his brother alone or helped from outside. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by debraran

[Ohmo]

On 1/23/2019 at 10:17 AM, lucindabelle said:

But on another level, I feel that this was retrofitted, and not what was planned from the beginning, which was a simple Vietnam Vet returns home, and his brother died there. I agree with the idea that this is wildly overcorrecting for St. Jack. We went from slightly flawed but loving to cold as ice. 

This is interesting to me because I've read comments about "overcorrection."  I don't look at it that way.  To me, it signals that for Jack to not act as St. Jack must mean he has a damn good reason to not act that way with Nicky.  I also think that we have to be careful that we assume that we know everything.  This response from Jack may be due to this incident plus other things we do not yet know.  Only Jack knows for sure what Jack knows.  Nicky's assuming that Jack believes that the incident was intentional, but all we know is that Nicky didn't tell him about it. Jack could believe it was accidental and still have a reason to not deal with Nicky.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Ohmo

[ShadowFacts]

43 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

The operative words here are "Nicky said."  Nicky says he once had a house or lives in a trailer because it's easier.  Doesn't make it true.  My estranged relatives say a lot of things, too.  They sound great to the outside world.  too bad it's all BS, and I know it's all BS.  Rebecca's response is telling to me.  Like others have mentioned, I think Rebecca knows something about Nicky.  Something that Jack told her and because of it, they mutually decided to keep the kids away from Nicky---and I don't think it's the accident vs. on purpose thing.

If that were the case, I think given what happened when Randall found William and then found out that Rebecca knew him from the beginning, she would have spilled it right there when they were Skyping with Kate, or at least before they went on the road trip.  She had to have learned something from how Randall reacted to a devastating secret.  I think at most she suspected, and wished she had dug deeper, per what she told Miguel.  This secret is illustrating that Jack and Rebecca were on parallel tracks, concealing something very important from their partner, and the costs of keeping those secrets, the implications for the family, that each was trying to protect.  Shock, heartbreak, regret, wondering what else was hidden. 

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, kili said:

I'm leaning to Nicky's side on theoe two points.

Jack's plan to enlist to be near Nicky was not a well-thought out plan. There was very little guarantee that Jack would get anywhere near NIcky, have any ability to help Nicky or that he would even arrive in country before NIcky's situation changed. It was a crazy Hail Mary of a plan and that it even kind of worked is by extreme luck and not design. Jack should have tried to help from stateside (still a long shot, but probably much greater chance). Nicky was crushed knowing this his brother (whose health was judged to fragile for war) had joined up and risked his life and his sanity to join Nicky in a horrible situation. That did not make Nicky feel better. It made him feel worse. What is the first thing he says to his long-lost brother? "If you die out here, that's not on me." He says that because he instantly feels at fault.

Then, Jack decides to have him assigned to a situation that is arguably much worse for some do-it-yourself rehab. You can't rehab somebody who doesn't want rehab. You can't rehab somebody by just taking their drugs away and not dealing with the underlying reasons they started doing drugs. You probably shouldn't try rehabbing somebody by taking them back to exactly the situation where they started doing drugs in the first place ("You went off the rails when you were embedded in a village living amongst the villagers who betrayed your mentor/CO and turned him into hamburger? Let's take you to a situation where you will be embedded in a village living amongst villagers who just might do the same thing to your brother/CO!"). And it is pretty tough to rehab somebody in two weeks. Let's compare the two week rehab program Jack designed for Nicky to the one that Kevin got. It's not difficult to figure out why one appears to be a pretty good success and the other was abject failure.

Jack has been criticized for doing grand gestures in the past, but these were the grandest and craziest so far. Their chance at success was so minimal, that he actually deserved a wake up call. I commend Jack for trying to help his brother, but not all plans deserve praise. Some deserve criticism.

Taking a suicidal, unstable junky from the relatively safe confines of an official military base which had built-in safe-guards for access to drugs and munitions to put that junky in an environment that worsened his PTSD, exposed children/civilians to his erratic behavior, allowed access to drugs kept in a backpack and where he could get easily obtain a  box of grenades could also be seen as irresponsible. Jack was determined to fix things and he ignored the warnings of his brother, his brother's CO, the other soldiers and common sense itself.

I love Jack as a character. I'm not blaming him for the child's death. But I'm not going to congratulate him or praise him for his patently stupid "I'm going to war to fix my brother" plan which only made things worse.  Jack's fundamental flaw is that he thinks he has to be the one to fix everything. It's what got him killed saving a dog and a bunch of mementos - nobody thought that was a good trade.

Me hugging this post a million times!

[Dminches]

On 1/23/2019 at 1:51 AM, tennisgurl said:

Kevin has really become the MVP of this season, he’s grown so much as a person, and as a member of their family. He’s working so hard on making family connections and being a more thoughtful person. 

Agree.

Plus, he is the ONLY Pearson who currently has a job (or at least has had a job).  Do any of the others work?  How do they pay for their lives?

[DebbieM4]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

You get paperwork and discharge notifications . No way the army lied to them. I’ll see how they set it up next week.

I never said or even implied that the Army had lied to the family.  What I said was that Jack could have told his parents that Nicky had died, and they might have believed him even in the absence of official notification, etc.

Again, I’m not saying this is what happened, just that it’s a possibility.  But the Army lying had absolutely nothing to do with any of my posts.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Telling people that you're estranged from family often doesn't go over well.  Some can't comprehend how that can possibly be.  In the minds of many, if you're estranged from  members of your family, then something must inherently be wrong with you

 

2 hours ago, auntiemel said:

OMG, yes!!! And also the endless conversations where they try to convince you to reconnect with them, and you have to just constantly re-explain and re-justify your decisions. It's freaking exhausting. Good lord! There have been many times that I wished I had just told someone that fill-in-the-blank-family-member was dead from the jump. It would have been so much easier!

This is a huge pet peeve of mine (in real life and on tv). Not everyone has a warm loving supportive relationship with [insert relative here], and that's okay. If your relatives are abusive/emotional vampires/just plain jerks, it's not your job to torture yourself by continuing to be around them. Just because you are related by blood doesn't mean that you have a responsibility to put up with their bull shit for the rest of your lives.

When people know you have an asshole boyfriend or platonic friend, they're totally supportive of you ending this toxic relationship. But if they're family, suddenly it's the opposite: "You should really try to make more of an effort to mend this relationship. You will regret it if you walk away from them because they're you're family." The assumption is always that YOU are the one who needs to do the work, be more tolerant/forgiving, and fix the relationship and that if you just try harder, your relative will suddenly become a sane, rational, kind human being.

I just posted about this again the other night because something similar happened on You're the Worst (the main character's best friend insisted that she had to call her mom to tell her that she's getting married). There's another storyline on Grey's Anatomy this season where the main character's father is dying so of course she got the "you should reconcile with him while you still have the chance" talk. I've seen versions of this countless times on tv and in movies (and, unfortunately, in real life with several friends who were estranged from certain relatives and guilt tripped about it). I still remember how mad I was when Marshall was insistent that Lily invite her dad to their wedding on How I Met Your Mother. I know people think they're helping, but they need to mind their own business. 

I'm not saying that Nicky was the absolute worst, but if takes two people to have a relationship and once one of your decides that it's over, there isn't much that the other person can do (contrary to the girlfriend on Seinfeld who refused to accept George breaking up with her). Jack decided he was done with Nicky. I don't know for certain what his reasoning was (he was tired of trying to save him, he was tired of failing, he didn't think Nicky would ever get clean, he couldn't forgive Nicky for his role in that kid's death), but what he did just goes to show that no one can make you have a relationship with someone.

[DebbieM4]

3 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Re:  it was an accident vs. on purpose

Doesn't matter because what that's essentially saying is that Nicky telling Jack that it was an accident would have been the single and only thing that caused Nicky's life to be what it was.  That he would have magically somehow not lived in a trailer for decades and made better choices if Jack had only listened to "poor Nicky."

Utter bullshit.  Nicky is/was responsible for his own life.  The allure of "just if this one thing happens" then family member X will straighten his/her life around is strong, but bogus.  Nicky isn't STILL in that trailer because of Jack.  He's there because of himself and conveniently blaming it on Jack.

It didn't seem to me that Nicky was blaming Jack.  He seemed to be blaming himself pretty heavily.  All he had wanted was to tell Jack what happened.  I don't think he thought it would change his life, and I don't think he feels he deserves a life that's any better.   He didn't expect magic of any kind, or even forgiveness.  Just a chance to speak about that horrible day.

[CrystalBlue]

7 hours ago, Driad said:

This reminded me of the West Wing episode "In Excelsis Deo."  A homeless veteran died and a staffer arranged a funeral with an honor guard.  The president said, "If we start pulling strings like this, don't you think every homeless veteran will come out of the woodwork?"  The staffer replied, "I can only hope so, sir."

I never watched West Wing, as I'm not attracted to fictional political TV shows, movies or books, but that sounds great!

[MsChicklet]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When people know you have an asshole boyfriend or platonic friend, they're totally supportive of you ending this toxic relationship. But if they're family, suddenly it's the opposite: "You should really try to make more of an effort to mend this relationship. You will regret it if you walk away from them because they're you're family." The assumption is always that YOU are the one who needs to do the work, be more tolerant/forgiving, and fix the relationship and that if you just try harder, your relative will suddenly become a sane, rational, kind human being.

Maybe that's part of why Jack closed the door. Also, so he could better compartmentalize, as Miguel said. 

There may be more to the rift than what we've seen so far. There may have been repercussions for Jack from the Army. There may have been a revenge attack on his platoon. Jack may have gotten more abuse from his father -- he was very close to the breaking point the night he got his mom to leave. Maybe in psychiatric care Nicky blamed Jack for trying to help.

And there may have been nothing else. This may have simply been the thing that broke Jack, He had tried and tried and, largely because of circumstances beyond his control, failed. And he got to see bits of what was once a child floating in the water because of it. Nicky's not the only one who was still hearing the mother's wails.

ETA: It doesn't mean Nicky was in the wrong to try and reach out to Jack. Both of them had their own damage, trauma, hurt and grief. And that they were never able to bridge that gulf is another tragedy that Vietnam wrought.

Edited January 26, 2019 by MsChicklet

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

This is a huge pet peeve of mine (in real life and on tv). Not everyone has a warm loving supportive relationship with [insert relative here], and that's okay. If your relatives are abusive/emotional vampires/just plain jerks, it's not your job to torture yourself by continuing to be around them. Just because you are related by blood doesn't mean that you have a responsibility to put up with their bull shit for the rest of your lives.

Thank you, ElectricBoogaloo.  I know that this hits a personal nerve with me, and I'm trying to allow for that.  However, reading the responses about Jack being mean, how could Jack do that, etc.  I would just like people to understand the other side of that coin.  I'm estranged from people on both sides of my family---the short reason being that relatives treated both my parents horribly, not just once, but over the period of many, many years.  Estrangement did not happen overnight, and I think most people do not estrange themselves lightly.  It's a conscious choice.  Jack, being the thoughtful guy that he seems to be...well, I'd hazard a guess that he did not make such a choice lightly.  Especially being St. Jack.  Even he apparently reached a limit, and I'm glad to see that represented...because family is NOT "you can do whatever you want to me, treat me like crap, and expect me to have no breaking point just because we're family."  If anything, family should NOT treat each other that way because they're family.  I'm more than willing to cut Jack some slack because if St. Jack couldn't be St. Jack, to Nicky there must have been a reason why.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Ohmo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

In the case of Nicky, he's an addict and anyone who has had an addict in their life knows what a struggle it can be for the addict as well as everyone around them. As much as you can love an addict, that doesn't mean you are responsible for them. It doesn't mean that you are obligated to stay by their side to witness it all or try to convince them to get clean. As the saying goes, you can't help someone who doesn't want to help themselves. Putting yourself in a position where you personally feel responsible for someone else's sobriety is only going to break your heart repeatedly. I think Jack finally hit that wall after he saw that kid die and gave himself permission not to be responsible for Nicky's well being anymore.

[Violetgoblin6]

On 1/24/2019 at 7:09 AM, alexvillage said:

I liked the episode. I have been annoyed with all the Jack flashback - because he has becoming unlikeable to me, going from a thoughtful person to a selfish one - and by the Vietnam storyline but I do like Nicky now. I can see how tormented he became, even though I don't think he would have survived that long - apparently he has been drinking a lot for all those years. 

Despite the absurdity of Kate simply ignoring her high risk pregnancy, after all the drama to get pregnant, and flying cross country, than driving for hours, I still liked the episode. I particularly liked the directing and editing of it, the past and the present complementing each other. Very well done.

And drinking, apparently, as a diabetic. I'm type 1 and I don't drink. My dad is type 2 and drinks, but it does cause issues. Although, like my dad, Nicky appeared to only be consuming scotch, low sugar. It's not like Nicky was drink sugar filled wine. 

[ams1001]

4 hours ago, meirav said:

I looked away. I still don't know how they  did the scene.

They didn't show anything. We don't see the boy again, just a panicked Nicky in the water looking for him, and the boat in pieces, then they pull him out and he's dazed/in shock (which is where I thought "that's what really broke him").

[lucindabelle]

7 hours ago, Ohmo said:

This is interesting to me because I've read comments about "overcorrection."  I don't look at it that way.  To me, it signals that for Jack to not act as St. Jack must mean he has a damn good reason to not act that way with Nicky.  I also think that we have to be careful that we assume that we know everything.  This response from Jack may be due to this incident plus other things we do not yet know.  Only Jack knows for sure what Jack knows.  Nicky's assuming that Jack believes that the incident was intentional, but all we know is that Nicky didn't tell him about it. Jack could believe it was accidental and still have a reason to not deal with Nicky.

No, the show has taught me to take it at face value. Some people said Nicky must not want to be found: there was no evidence of that, and guess what... turns out not to be true.

 

and shout out to the poster who said rightly that Jack saying his brother died in the war for him sympathy and shut conversation down for YEARS. Frankly I’ll never believe, speaking as a writer, that those early scripts were written knwoing Jack was lying- and the actor didn’t know it more to the point.

 

in earlier episodes when milo spoke about his brother Nicky, he played a character whose brother was dead.

 

i get how one could decide family is an accident of birth but it just isn’t true that Nicky had been a mess for years. Jack abandoned him when he was trouble and never looked back.

 

as for working the program and dying young- no, Jack died six years after he visited Nicky. That’s a long time.

 

the episode was poignant but for me it changed Jack too much. It’s as if he actually wished Nicky dead. And it’s not the relationship we had been shown, nor the character we’d seen.

[CrystalBlue]

2 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

No, the show has taught me to take it at face value. Some people said Nicky must not want to be found: there was no evidence of that, and guess what... turns out not to be true.

 

and shout out to the poster who said rightly that Jack saying his brother died in the war for him sympathy and shut conversation down for YEARS. Frankly I’ll never believe, speaking as a writer, that those early scripts were written knwoing Jack was lying- and the actor didn’t know it more to the point.

 

in earlier episodes when milo spoke about his brother Nicky, he played a character whose brother was dead.

 

i get how one could decide family is an accident of birth but it just isn’t true that Nicky had been a mess for years. Jack abandoned him when he was trouble and never looked back.

 

as for working the program and dying young- no, Jack died six years after he visited Nicky. That’s a long time.

 

the episode was poignant but for me it changed Jack too much. It’s as if he actually wished Nicky dead. And it’s not the relationship we had been shown, nor the character we’d seen.

Many times the showrunners will tell the actor(s) what they want them to think, so when Milo played Jack as if Nicky really were dead, he, the actor, may have thought that was the storyline.  Also, as other posters have said, we don't know if the show started out knowing Nicky would end up really being alive.

[Ohmo]

7 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Many times the showrunners will tell the actor(s) what they want them to think, so when Milo played Jack as if Nicky really were dead, he, the actor, may have thought that was the storyline.  Also, as other posters have said, we don't know if the show started out knowing Nicky would end up really being alive.

Agreed, CrystalBlue.  Any piece of writing is a dynamic thing until it's finished.  With a TV series, the "finish" is really the series finale.  Milo playing Nicky as dead might have been because, at that time, that's where the writers thought they were going.  It might have even been where they intended to go, but they probably weren't sure.  That's why they didn't do something to fully commit it to canon.  They wanted to give themselves some room.  I'm quite sure that Fogelman's vision for the show isn't exactly the same as it was when he was pitching the pilot.  There's no possible way that can be true.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Ohmo

[Tosia]

On 1/23/2019 at 10:48 AM, ChicksDigScars said:

A brother that was at wit's end. Who tried to straighten his brother numerous times and had had enough. A brother that thought his drugged out brother was responsible for the death of an innocent child. I really don't have a problem with Jack disowning Nicky. Lying to everyone about his death, sure, but families break apart (especially dysfunctional families) all the time.  Plus, we don't know if Jack would have attempted to mend fences, or come clean to the kids once they'd hit adulthood, had he lived. Telling them that their uncle was alive, but here's why I disowned him, is not subject matter for kids. Vietnam veterans came back changed. Some close down when it comes to what happened over there. Hell, my ex-father-in-law fought in Germany in WWII, yet refused to speak of it to anyone, not even his kids. Whatever he saw, affected him that profoundly. I've always suspected that he was around during the liberation of the concentration camps, and saw the horrors, first hand. The timeline matches up, as well as where he fought.  But, he couldn't share what he saw. He refused. It was too much. My grandfather rarely spoke about his WWII experience in the Pacific, either.  They're both gone now, and I have no idea what they really saw. 

Or this:

I agree with both of you.

 I think many of us sometimes see history or tv depictions of history through our contemporary,  more informed and aware eyes. We know (and are fortunate to have more options), and have more acceptance , or less stigma,  about PTSD therapy,  trauma, codependence, addictions, domestic abuse, personality types, toxic parents, and forgiveness issues. 

So we tend to judge/interpret others' actions with our current knowledge. 

They didn't have this knowledge back then.  And even if they did,  intellectual knowledge is often over-ridden by emotional contradictions and a mighty struggle ensues in our psyches......over and over as we seek to reconcile these feelings because.....family. 

Living away from others is a choice made by many vets (still) due to trauma from horrors of war. I love that Nick reached out to Jack. Two brothers who were so close as children . It's incredibly sad that Jack couldn't accept Nick afterwards.

My mom's brother, Chet, my uncle, had PTSD/other undefined issues cuz he served in the Pacific and  survived Pearl Harbor. Mom was wary of him when he visited because mental illness was associated with random violence back then. ..and now, isn't it?  Chet never did anything violent, got married, had kids,  and was ok. Just spacey sometimes.  

My father was interned in slave labor camps, including Dachau, for 5 years during WWII. He was Polish , Catholuc, and blonde, blue eyed. Sone 60,000-100,000 non -Jews were imprisoned, abused  and killed this way.  He never talked about it to us. He did tell his story to Spielberg's Shoah Foundation Video rep for history in 1990. I've  never watched the video. Just can't. Maybe someday.  

I interpret  Jack's dismisaal of Nick as protecting his family.  

[nexxie]

19 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Nicky isn't blaming anything on Jack. He signed his postcards as C. K. so as not to expose Jack's lie to anyone. He said he lives in a trailer because it's easier for him than living in a house. He was worried that he ruined Jack's life, and visibly relieved when Jack told him his life is good. All he was asking from Jack was the chance to talk about what happened in Vietnam.

Yes! I just wish Nicky had blurted out what he needed to say.