S03.E11: Songbird Road, Part One

[Dreamboat Annie]

2 hours ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

I believe Jack knew it was an accident.  He knew Nicky - and Nicky wouldn't intentionally hurt any child, and this was a child he knew and who knew him and there was obviously fondness between them.  And Jack had probably seen Nicky and the little boy interact before.  Nicky was great with him.  I could see Jack being unforgiving of Nicky for having grenades in the same boat as a child. 

 

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't know, he was determined not to let Nicky talk about it, so he foreclosed any chance to have clarity.  I believe there was guilt that Jack felt in not preventing it, and it was just too painful to think that he maybe could have. 

I maintain.  Jack knew it was a an accident.  And had clarity.  He knows for sure that Nicky would never hurt a child intentionally.  Guilt?  Maybe, considering he always felt responsible for Nicky as children.  That's why he enlisted in the first place.  Preventing it?  No.  He was super pissed.  He knew it was an accident.  But he also knew that taking grenades into a boat with a child was not an accident.  Jack couldn't forgive Nicky for that. 

[jmonique]

1 hour ago, KaveDweller said:

But hadn't Nicky only become an addict in Vietnam? I can understand being done after years of problems from the addiction, but Jack had just gotten to Vietnam and found out Nicky had become an addict. The timeline wasn't super clear, but I got the impression the explosion was within a couple weeks of when Nicky and Jack were re-united.

Yeah, but given how Jack had given up his own life to enlist and try to take care of Nicky, going so far as promising Nicky's CO that he could get him straightened out, only to be met with Nicky the wallowing addict, i can see how getting a kid killed by fishing with grenades was just IT for Jack. Jack had spent his entire life protecting his little brother, who got a little boy killed due to his poor choices. 

That, combined with, as Nicky called out, Jack's black-or-white view of life and his own PTSD that was never addressed, I can see how it all went down as it did. Jack finally achieved the nuclear family he had always longed for, and a strung-out little brother who got a boy killed in Vietnam didn't fit into that picture. Jack had to make the choice, and he decided to focus on taking care of his wife and children instead.

[Mystery]

3 hours ago, ams1001 said:

Damn show actually made me cry a little.

Jack pissed me off, though, when he wouldn't let Nicky say what he needed to say.

Kate, too, with her "we're not going anywhere"...because, what, Nicky owes them something?

I agree about Jack. Kate wouldn't go anywhere because they're Jack's kids and they always think they're right. 

 

3 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Good casting on old Nick. Took me a second to realize that wasn't age makeup.

But the wrong color eyes, weren't they? And did younger Nick lick the Nestle's Quik spoon and put it back into Jack's mug? I cringed *and* laughed because I thought Jack deserved it. 

 

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I was really proud of Kevin this week.  He has shown the most character growth of all the Big 3.  I liked that he did what Jack should have done.  I am looking forward to what the writers have in store for Nicky and Kevin.

I agree with this. 

 

2 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

So in the dozens of postcards Nicky sent Jack, he couldn't have written "What happened to the kid was a total accident. I tried to warn him but it happened too fast. It's haunted me for years." on ANY of them?

Right? "It was an accident."

I'm in the "Jack thought it was on purpose" camp. 

[lucindabelle]

Jack being that hard and unforgiving and loving a lie just doesn’t jive with the Jack we know... honestly his story is more poignant if Nicky has died.

nicky was irresponsible but it was an accident just like the guy playing football and alerting the VC was an accident. 

Explosions making fish appear was a plot point in the WWII film Hope and Glory so I wasn’t shocked...

im just so glad the show avoided a my Lai style event or them taking revenge on the town for the boat or something like that...

i can see jack feeling bitter. But ignoring him first for 20 years and then cutting him out of his life completely is almost as if he killed Nicky or wished him dead. And unlike what Nicky did it was not an accident but a choice.

[CrystalBlue]

2 hours ago, jmonique said:

Having hit the wall with an addict once myself, I can understand Jack being just DONE with Nicky after a child was killed due to him. Yeah, it was an accident, but Nicky was still the adult who took a child out on a boat to go fishing with grenades, and then bailed and left the kid to die. "I never got to tell him it was an accident," Nicky says, but I don't even know if that would have mattered. Jack was trying desperately to clean his brother up, and a kid died on his watch. I don't blame him for just being OVER his brother's addictions. 

I agree with this, but Jack ends up being an alcoholic.

[memememe76]

The death of the child was more than just an accident. Nicky took the boy on the boat and played around with grenades. I could totally understand Jack wanting nothing to do with Nicky (although I suspect we will get more flashbacks with them when Jack came back to the US). Nonetheless, I am glad Kevin and the others went back to see him.

I was tense throughout. Wonderful episode.

[tennisgurl]

Kevin has really become the MVP of this season, he’s grown so much as a person, and as a member of their family. He’s working so hard on making family connections and being a more thoughtful person. 

[chocolatine]

This episode made no sense to me. I can see Jack being "done" in the moment, but what happened was ambiguous enough that he should have questioned it after some time had passed and sought clarity from Nicky. If Nicky had wanted to hurt Vietnamese civilians, he would have thrown the grenade into a crowd of people, not taken out one kid on a boat.

And we still don't know for sure whether Jack told his parents Nicky was dead, but if he did, then I'm "done" with Jack. It's one thing to lie to new people in his life who'd never met Nicky, but if he told his mother to her face that Nicky is dead, watched her excruciating grief and didn't realize right then and there that he made a huge mistake, that's indefensible.

I did love that Kevin chose to go back for Nicky, and that Randall acted more like S1-Randall and less like last-episode-Randall. Kate still sucks and should have stayed home.

[CrystalBlue]

^ I'm waiting to see what transpires in Part 2 to come to any final opinions.  One thing I wonder though:  Since Jack knew Nicky had his address, didn't he live in fear that Nick might show up on his doorstep someday (after the first postcard or the first one that came to the house)?  Did Jack explicitly tell him he had told his wife and children that he was dead, so don't come around ever?

[bros402]

Based on this episode, I think they overcorrected St. Jack a bit, since that is waaay cold to tell everyone he is dead for what was obviously an accident

[ElectricBoogaloo]

My favorite scenes on this show are always when Randall, Kate, and Kevin are together. They are each capable of being unbearable on their own, but when they are together they are clearly siblings who love each other and I always enjoy watching that. All the teasing in the car about Randall giving out pennies and raisins embodied that perfectly, from the look on Kate's face before she said, "No, I'm good," to Randall good-naturedly protesting that he is the only one on his block who gives out full sized candy bars for Halloween.

And just as great was how quickly they went from that fun moment to Kate asking how Randall could be so calm when they just found out that their dad lied to them their whole lives about Nicky being dead. Randall's answer was perfect though. He already lived through the shock of finding out that Rebecca lied to him about William his whole life, so it would take a lot to surpass that.

I also loved when Kevin whispered, "I'm Sundance," and Randall just smiled and said, "I know."

[ElectricBoogaloo]

That was us:

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Apparently I am old and out of touch with fashion because I have no idea what these uncle hunter jeans are that Randall was talking about. Are those a real thing or did I hear what he said incorrectly?

[debraran]

5 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Even though it was hard for Nicky to relive and tell his story he now has family... Jack was wrong I think to decide for Nicky amdnall of Nickys family that he was dead, even lying to randall at the Vietnam Memorial.

 

im glad the big three didn’t assume- as would frankly have been understandable given the veneration ofntheir dad- that there’re were good reasons why Nicky didn’t want to be in their lives. There were reasons. Not necessarily good ones. And I think Nicky would absolutely have shot himsef- I don’t think that was the first time he’d considered it, given his speech about how haunted he is by the woman crying. 

I don't know why the writers decided to do it this way, making it an accident and Nicky wasn't bipolar or something that scared Jack with his family.  He didn't care what care he received or where he lived or if his children (or mom?) knew he was alive? So odd. Jack went there on his own to "save him". He's human, Nicky was human, you can't always be superman but you can be human. As I said before, if any of his kids hurt someone by accident, a pool accident, driving, he would be disappointed, angry, but never write his Katie girl or sons off.  Why did Nicky say to him, "Did I ruin your life?" Jack almost bragged about his pretty wife and kids as if Nicky wasn't suffering enough. Look at me, house, kids, pretty wife, you stay in your stinky trailer and live us alone. When he said that, I had a flash that the kid was Jack's but the timing wouldn't have been right. Maybe he wanted to be with the child's mother after the war? Overthinking it.

I also loved Randall's answer about his bio dad. Perfect and true. Lies were not only his father's but his was pretty big and altered all their lives. I agree with above post that said if he didn't tell his Mom, no amount of goodness would erase that for me. Nicky had to have the autonomy to see his Mom, and I hope he does, maybe she helps him a little? He never mentions the mom yet, just Jack. They have kept when his mom died a secret, was it soon after, you never see flashbacks with her, just Rebecca's mom.

Edited January 23, 2019 by debraran

[Blakeston]

Jack had to know it was an accident. Who the hell intentionally murders a child by blowing up the boat you're both sitting in?

When Nicky and Jack spoke in the trailer, Nicky was clearly about to say that it was an accident, and Jack stopped him - because he didn't care.

Jack had the hugest martyr complex imaginable, so of course he felt completely responsible for the child's death (Jack's the one who brought Nicky there, and kept trying to "fix" him). The guilt was more than Jack could handle, so he had to just shut it out, along with everything else that happened in Vietnam.

I actually think it's bolder for the show to handle the plotline this way than if they'd made Nicky a cold-blooded murderer. If he had intentionally killed a child, then Jack's actions would be a lot more defensible.

Instead, they're actually tarnishing the memory of St. Jack a bit, which I fully welcome. It's high time that his family dealt with his flaws.

[debraran]

7 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Jack had to know it was an accident. Who the hell intentionally murders a child by blowing up the boat you're both sitting in?

When Nicky and Jack spoke in the trailer, Nicky was cleaYerly about to say that it was an accident, and Jack stopped him - because he didn't care.

Jack had the hugest martyr complex imaginable, so of course he felt completely responsible for the child's death (Jack's the one who brought Nicky there, and kept trying to "fix" him). The guilt was more than Jack could handle, so he had to just shut it out, along with everything else that happened in Vietnam.

I actually think it's bolder for the show to handle the plotline this way than if they'd made Nicky a cold-blooded murderer. If he had intentionally killed a child, then Jack's actions would be a lot more defensible.

Instead, they're actually tarnishing the memory of St. Jack a bit, which I fully welcome. It's high time that his family dealt with his flaws.

I agree and seeing how it impacts Rebecca and her image of him. She was tarnished because of William, but I don't think Jack froze her out or didn't try to understand why she did what she did.

My biggest issue with the timeline is Jack's mom, played by Laura Niemi.  Why was she given so short shrift in the flashbacks and just in talking about Jack's parents. Kate went with her mom to see dying father but no talk of funeral for his mom or how she doing alone. Even before this plot change, I wondered about her, why Rebecca's parent was in flashbacks and not her, not even a sentence saying something about her. Either writers thought she was unimportant or had ambiguous plot lines forming and didn't want to cement a death or other plotline yet.

[Biggie B]

I liked the moment at the end when Kevin placed his hand on Nicky's shoulder - the actor's physical response was quite good, they way he squinched his eyes shut, crooked his neck to the side, and slightly raised that shoulder into Kevin's touch. God knows the last time anyone actually ever touched Nicky affectionately or even at all. That was a brief but well-acted, non-verbal moment.

I know everyone's on the Kate Hate Train and did not like her statement of "We're not going anywhere," or whatever it was she said when Nicky first asked them to leave. I cringed for a moment because I thought she was gonna make it all about herself ("I'm pregnant and I just sat in a car for 6 hours and had to keep stopping to pee," etc.) but she made it about Kevin - which it sorta was - and I have to give her a little credit for that.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Biggie B

[JudyObscure]

I didn't think I wanted a new character, but  Nicky may be just what's needed. We've had death and grief in many forms, but someone living with, maybe learning to deal with, terrible guilt is far more interesting to me and is just what the big three can learn from.

[ShadowFacts]

6 hours ago, Mystery said:

But the wrong color eyes, weren't they? And did younger Nick lick the Nestle's Quik spoon and put it back into Jack's mug? I cringed *and* laughed because I thought Jack deserved it. 

If I'm not mistaken he handed the cup to Jack with no spoon in it, because I was about to be grossed out, too.

5 hours ago, chocolatine said:

This episode made no sense to me. I can see Jack being "done" in the moment, but what happened was ambiguous enough that he should have questioned it after some time had passed and sought clarity from Nicky. If Nicky had wanted to hurt Vietnamese civilians, he would have thrown the grenade into a crowd of people, not taken out one kid on a boat.

I agree, this doesn't fit in with Jack's a) character and b) knowledge of his brother and the situation.  I believe there's a lot of guilt Jack was unable to face; after all, he begged his commanding officer to let him go and take care of the out-of-control brother, and he doesn't have a tight enough rein on him to prevent him from fishing with a case of grenades.  Also, Jack was able to sit in the trailer and reminisce somewhat warmly about old times as kids, but then leave and totally cut his brother off?  Did not work for me.

5 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I did love that Kevin chose to go back for Nicky, and that Randall acted more like S1-Randall and less like last-episode-Randall. Kate still sucks and should have stayed home.

Yes to all of this, and Kate should have stayed home if for no other reason than that having to pee all the time in an airplane "bathroom" would be a non-starter for me if I were her. 

[Haleth]

That was horrifying even though it was obvious what was going to happen.  Nicky is one messed up human.  Such a shame he didn't get the help he needed to deal with this accident and his addiction.  It was shocking that Jack tossed him away rather than trying to fix his brother.  (Although the kind of cheesy road signs illustrated how Jack felt he had to choose between his wife and kids and his brother.)

When did Kevin supplant Randall as my favorite character?

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Apparently I am old and out of touch with fashion because I have no idea what these uncle hunter jeans are that Randall was talking about. Are those a real thing or did I hear what he said incorrectly?

I think it was just a joke.  Randall was hunting his uncle.

Maybe Mom Pearson died while the boys were in Vietnam?

[ShadowFacts]

1 minute ago, Haleth said:

Maybe Mom Pearson died while the boys were in Vietnam?

No, remember she was alive at the point where Jack met Rebecca, and had just taken her out of her house and into a friend's home, to prevent her from further abuse (and himself from killing his father).

[jmonique]

I wanted to add that even though this show is known for aging its actors to tackle different eras, I totally back the decision to have Griffin Dunne play 70-year-old Nicky.

While I'm one of those who can actually buy Mandy as 65+year-old Rebecca, I'm always overly aware that Jon Huertas is wearing aging makeup. I think allowing Dunne to step in and take on the role of Nicky allowed me to believe that this was a man who has lived with a life-altering pain, guilt and grief for over 40 years. I wasn't distracted by 31-year-old Michael Angarano trying to adopt the mannerisms of not just a Vietnam war vet, but also a 70-year-old hermit. Dunne was able to slip into that skin, and carry himself like an older man because he is one.

Edited January 23, 2019 by jmonique

[Ohiopirate02]

I actually do not see Jack's behavior in this episode to be out-of-character.  We have seen that Jack is selfish and he has issues dealing with trauma.  The episode where he told Kevin to just suck it up after his football injury really cemented who Jack is.  Jack is someone who expects everyone around him to behave and process feelings in exactly the same way  that he does.  I can see him freezing Nicky out of his life because that is what Jack needed in order to live his life.  Jack never did process his feelings in a healthy way and he intentionally left Rebecca in the dark about his time in Vietnam.  Miguel understood why Jack behaved this way even if he did not agree with it.  

 

Another thing, Jack and Nicky's parents knew that Nicky was alive.  They were his next of kin and the army would have contacted them if Nicky had died.  Jack would never have been able to hide this.  I guess we will see more flashbacks about this time when it comes to their mother.  

[MissLucas]

This show just get so much better when the Big Three are together! All those sibling interactions were gold and what makes the show great. 

I think Jack knew it had been an accident or at least realized it later on but it didn't make a difference - the kid was dead and Jack being Jack he carried the guilt over that death with him. Nicky had been his responsibility (in his mind) and Nicky got the kid killed under his watch. The only way he could deal with the guilt was to close the door within for good. Shutting out the memories and shutting out Nicky - for better or worse. Could he have led the life he lived with Rebecca with Nicky and his problems constantly hovering in the background? Probably not - or that's what he told himself. And that's why he had to make sure that life was beyond perfect (even when it wasn't). The Pearson perfection had been purchased at a pretty high price.

I'm really glad this season gives Kevin a better arc and some real character growth. It had to be him who had to go back for Nicky - Kevin himself once put the life of a kid close to his brother in danger, also as a result of addiction. And that the show did not point that out specifically (I was dreading another Pearson-speech) was the icing on the cake.

Yay for Tess throwing shade at Dad's proclivity to 'bring home people' and kudos to Miguel for being a great granddad and husband.

[ShadowFacts]

47 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I actually do not see Jack's behavior in this episode to be out-of-character.  We have seen that Jack is selfish and he has issues dealing with trauma.  The episode where he told Kevin to just suck it up after his football injury really cemented who Jack is.  Jack is someone who expects everyone around him to behave and process feelings in exactly the same way  that he does.  I can see him freezing Nicky out of his life because that is what Jack needed in order to live his life.  Jack never did process his feelings in a healthy way and he intentionally left Rebecca in the dark about his time in Vietnam.  Miguel understood why Jack behaved this way even if he did not agree with it.  

 

Another thing, Jack and Nicky's parents knew that Nicky was alive.  They were his next of kin and the army would have contacted them if Nicky had died.  Jack would never have been able to hide this.  I guess we will see more flashbacks about this time when it comes to their mother.  

I have not remotely felt like re-viewing any episode in a long time, but I might this time (plus it's a snow day).  I need to especially see how Jack interacted with Nicky in the trailer.  I do feel his behavior after that was not in keeping with what we knew about him previously.  He may have told Kevin to suck up an injury, but didn't he also counsel him more than once to stand by his brother?  He is super solicitous of little Kate's feelings.  He's known Nicky's character since childhood.  To limit contact for a period of time is believable to me, but to cut him out and leave him alone and suffering, no, it doesn't fit for me.   It now ends up with Rebecca feeling guilt for not having asked more.  I wonder if we will see more of that scene where Jack starts talking about Nick, and we don't hear audio.  I would like to know what he was telling her. 

[Lovecat]

I know that what with the constant speechifying and the stupid election plot line Randall hasn't been the most popular character around these parts lately, but damn if he didn't give me one of my favorite moments of last night's episode:

Kevin:  So...Randall's adopted...

Randall, nodding:  That's true.

Kevin:  ...which explains why he's black...

Randall, nodding harder:  Also true.

[lucindabelle]

It's so interesting reading the different reactions we have to Jack shutting Nicky out.

Personally I do feel that once he became an alcoholic Jack should have developed more empathy.

I cannot imagine living comfortably with my family knowing the brother I had loved was alone.

But on another level, I feel that this was retrofitted, and not what was planned from the beginning, which was a simple Vietnam Vet returns home, and his brother died there. I agree with the idea that this is wildly overcorrecting for St. Jack. We went from slightly flawed but loving to cold as ice. 

I'm a purist when it comes to retrofitting, I feel I can always see it whether in books or in TV shows when they're making it up after the fact. It's one of the things I've always loved about the Harry Potter series-- you can tell Rowling really did have it all planned in advance, whether or not she got to write the whole series, she knew where it would go.

[NicoleMN6]

What’s saddest to me is that Nicky WAS finally getting better in Vietnam, during that fishing trip with the little boy. (He was laughing and able to enjoy the innocence of the boy instead of envisioning him as his enemy.) Until the accident.

I’m glad, it only for Rebecca’s sake, that we see that St. Jack kept a huge secret and was not such a saint after all. It’s good for Miguel, too, come to think of it.

Jack’s parents had to have known about Nicky, at least that he came back from the war, though it’s possible he faked his death to them afterwards. Jack’s mom must have died some years before the kids are 9 years old; they probably don’t even remember her, since she’s never been mentioned. 

[ClareWalks]

As awful as it is that Jack cut Nicky off (and wouldn't even let him explain, WTF), it's kind of nice to see Saint Jack brought down a peg. It was absolutely ridiculous in the first two seasons how FLAWLESS Jack was (even with alcoholism).

[lucindabelle]

1 minute ago, ClareWalks said:

As awful as it is that Jack cut Nicky off (and wouldn't even let him explain, WTF), it's kind of nice to see Saint Jack brought down a peg. It was absolutely ridiculous in the first two seasons how FLAWLESS Jack was (even with alcoholism).

But, I kind of miss mostly flawless Jack. (Alcoholism is a big flaw). There really are plenty of men who are loving fathers and husbands who don't have a secret of wishing their brother dead and writing him off. I worry that this will change my reaction to the show too much, TBH. on the other hand, i'm interested to see if the show can make me still care about Jack despite this terrible "Am I my brother's keeper" moment. 

[ClareWalks]

1 minute ago, lucindabelle said:

But, I kind of miss mostly flawless Jack. (Alcoholism is a big flaw). There really are plenty of men who are loving fathers and husbands who don't have a secret of wishing their brother dead and writing him off. I worry that this will change my reaction to the show too much, TBH. on the other hand, i'm interested to see if the show can make me still care about Jack despite this terrible "Am I my brother's keeper" moment. 

Most of what really bothered me about the Saint Jack narrative is that people assumed that, if Jack was perfect, then Rebecca was a bitch whenever she had a different opinion. I think it's more realistic when the characters are all multidimensional and nobody is always "the bad guy."

[lucindabelle]

2 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

Most of what really bothered me about the Saint Jack narrative is that people assumed that, if Jack was perfect, then Rebecca was a bitch whenever she had a different opinion. I think it's more realistic when the characters are all multidimensional and nobody is always "the bad guy."

Oh well, that's true too. But he could be multidimensional just by, say, cutting Nicky off for 20 years. But forever? Too harsh.

[Biggie B]

16 minutes ago, NicoleMN6 said:

What’s saddest to me is that Nicky WAS finally getting better in Vietnam, during that fishing trip with the little boy. (He was laughing and able to enjoy the innocence of the boy instead of envisioning him as his enemy.) Until the accident.

Was he, though? I think he was very much an addict at the time of the accident. The show made a point of showing him rifling through a backpack, finding, and popping some pills. Even if that was a flashback, I don't think he was better at all - perhaps no worse, but not better. 

[lucindabelle]

12 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

Was he, though? I think he was very much an addict at the time of the accident. The show made a point of showing him rifling through a backpack, finding, and popping some pills. Even if that was a flashback, I don't think he was better at all - perhaps no worse, but not better. 

Hmm. He did seem to like the little boy though, spoke to him in Vietnamese and held his hand.

[Scarlett45]

30 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Oh well, that's true too. But he could be multidimensional just by, say, cutting Nicky off for 20 years. But forever? Too harsh.

He did cut Nicky off for 20yrs- and then he died. Had Jack survived the fire, and the kids grown and out of the house, he may have been motivated to reach out to his brother, but that time never came, Jack died young. 

I think the hardest and most human thing about Jack and Nicky’s relationship- is that if Nicky hadn’t been using drugs, and it was only an accident (Although a reckless one) Jack would’ve forgiven him. Had Nicky come home from Vietnam and had the same response Jack did, they probably would’ve worked together to save their Mom etc. But due to his mental health struggles Nicky floundered for many years, and Jack moved on and built a life with Rebecca and the kids.

 

If Nicky had written to Jack telling him that he’d settled in a “typical” life (full time job/community etc) and he wanted to make peace with Jack, he might have been more receiptive. But as it stood Jack saw Nicky as another burden around his neck, one he just couldn’t carry. Jack being the Capt Save a Wounded Bird that he is, it was an either or thing with him- that is a consistent characterization IMO. 

[emjohnson03]

I can't tell you how much I loved this episode. It seems polarizing which I totally understand but for the first time this whole season, I was emotional and feeling everything that the characters were. 

Nicky I think did a good job explaining Jack, He was black and white. He saw his life before that incident and then everything after it. While I do find it hard to believe that Jack would shut his brother out like that without much of an explanation, I also feel like it makes sense that Jack took that part of himself, shut it off and moved on to be the man he wanted to be, the one his dad never could. And in that, in his mind, he had to forget his brother in moving to that place. I will say, showing that picture to Nicky of his family and then Nicky just looking at it, like, "man, what a wonderful life you made and you couldn't ask me to join you it" made me SO sad.

I wonder if those who were over in Vietnam have any insight to their dynamic, and how Nicky was so resentful of his life and Jack was just trying to make it better, even being in the hell that they were. I wonder if any of these men could say better why Jack might have done this to his brother because of circumstances. So many men just came home and didn't talk about it and I can't imagine Nicky ever being able to tell Jack in a letter and even in person, couldn't tell him the truth. What a sad and lonely life his brother lived and didn't even know Jack had died.

I just thought it was a very flawed and very human episode even if many didn't like what Jack had done. At the end though, his family did come back for Nicky and I do think at some point, Jack may have changed his mind about everything but he died so young, he really didn't have the chance.

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, emjohnson03 said:

At the end though, his family did come back for Nicky and I do think at some point, Jack may have changed his mind about everything but he died so young, he really didn't have the chance.

Yes. I can understand that Jack’s first emotional priority was 1. Getting his mom out of the abuse and 2. Raising his minor children to adulthood. Nicky have ended up as point (3) but Jack passed before that could happen. Nicky suffered for a long time, and that wasn’t his fault but it also wasn’t Jack’s responsibility to save him. IF Nicky was committed to living a full life I’m sure his mother would’ve opened her arms to him- the man had demons (understandable) but that doesn’t mean it was Jack’s job to fight them with him. 

[Aloeonatable]

5 hours ago, debraran said:

I agree and seeing how it impacts Rebecca and her image of him. She was tarnished because of William, but I don't think Jack froze her out or didn't try to understand why she did what she did.

My biggest issue with the timeline is Jack's mom, played by Laura Niemi.  Why was she given so short shrift in the flashbacks and just in talking about Jack's parents. Kate went with her mom to see dying father but no talk of funeral for his mom or how she doing alone. Even before this plot change, I wondered about her, why Rebecca's parent was in flashbacks and not her, not even a sentence saying something about her. Either writers thought she was unimportant or had ambiguous plot lines forming and didn't want to cement a death or other plotline yet.

I think we, as viewers, need to be patient with the storylines and the characters. This show will probably be on for at least a few more years, so we have time to get the full story.

This was an excellent episode. I have never said that Jack was a saint, so his rejection of Nick is no surprise to me, nor out of character.

[ChicksDigScars]

12 hours ago, balmz said:

Kate was kind of pushy and rude when she said they weren't leaving

And wasn't Nicky's response a slightly sarcastic, "You sure are Jack's kids..."

[lucindabelle]

Just now, ChicksDigScars said:

And wasn't Nicky's response a slightly sarcastic, "You sure are Jack's kids..."

I think in this case the show is on the side of pushy over polite. It might have been more polite not to seek out a long lost uncle... in which case uncle might well have committed suicide. It might have been less pushy (OK, would have been) for Kate to understand he wanted to keep that secret.

But it was BETTER not to... better out than in, as they say.

Yes, Jack died young... but wasn't it years, like 6 years, after he'd seen Nicky? Didn't he see him in 1992, or do I have my timeline off?

[marceline]

I liked this episode. It dealt with some things I've been wanting to see addressed.

This really helps bring poke some holes in the myth of St. Jack. Jack's judgment destroyed his relationship with his brother and denied his family a connection that they certainly needed after his death and it denied Nicky something he desperately needed in order to heal.

Back when Rebecca was talking to Tess about coming out, she mentioned keeping some destructive secrets. I assumed she was talking about keeping William from Randall but now we know that she knew Nicky was alive. It makes me wonder what else Rebecca might be sitting on.

Kevin seems to have a sixth sense about when someone is at the end of his rope. Just like when he knew Randall was having a breakdown, he knew leaving Nicky was a bad idea. Of all the characters I feel like Kevin has shown the most growth.

Also, well done Miguel. It would be so easy to write him as threatened by the memory of Jack but this episode showed how meaningful it is for him and Rebecca to share their memories of Jack.

And just for the record, just showing up to Nicky's without warning was not only rude as hell but it showed how the whole thing could've ended badly. Give the guy a phone call or a letter.

[Ms Blue Jay]

9 hours ago, memememe76 said:

The death of the child was more than just an accident. Nicky took the boy on the boat and played around with grenades. I could totally understand Jack wanting nothing to do with Nicky (although I suspect we will get more flashbacks with them when Jack came back to the US). Nonetheless, I am glad Kevin and the others went back to see him.

I was tense throughout. Wonderful episode.

I agree with you.  It's interesting how some view Nicky as a victim in all of this.  However you slice it, he killed a kid.  Nicky did a really fucked up thing.  I don't even know how Jack catches blame in this situation.  

Does it make any sense that Nicky would 1) be so blase to hearing about Jack's death  2) at the same time be holding onto hope that Jack is still alive even though he would be 75 or something?  Not everyone is lucky enough to live that long.  I thought the whole trailer thing was very weird writing.  He's never moved?  Come on.

A lot of people are saying they've lost their love for this show and honestly all of a sudden I'm getting there too.  I really didn't need to see that kid sacrificed for this fucked up storyline.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[WendyM]

11 hours ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

 

I maintain.  Jack knew it was a an accident.  And had clarity.  He knows for sure that Nicky would never hurt a child intentionally.  Guilt?  Maybe, considering he always felt responsible for Nicky as children.  That's why he enlisted in the first place.  Preventing it?  No.  He was super pissed.  He knew it was an accident.  But he also knew that taking grenades into a boat with a child was not an accident.  Jack couldn't forgive Nicky for that. 

And Jack couldn't forgive himself. I think that's what it was, deep down. He feels even more responsible than Nicky ever could. He couldn't prevent him from being drafted (no one could do that), he enlisted to try to save him, and even brought him to his camp to try to save him. If he hadn't brought Nicky there, the kid wouldn't have died.

He couldn't forgive Nicky because he couldn't forgive himself. Remember: Jack was Superman. We've been reminded elevendy-seven times, sheesh.

I wonder if Jack would have liked Kevin's movie. Hmm. My father (who enlisted and spent a year in Vietnam) didn't like any of the Vietnam movies. Granted, he never talked about what happened over there. I just know he didn't like the movies.

I have an overarching question about the whole series: when we see the relevant flashbacks (Jack and Randall at the DC memorial, Jack and Kevin talking in the living room before Jack leaves for the secret Nicky trip), are we supposed to think that the kids are remembering these moments in the present? Or are the flashbacks just for us, to help us understand the story better? I'm not sure I'm being clear but it's something I've always wondered.

Edited January 23, 2019 by WendyM
Jack is Superman!

[Ohiopirate02]

26 minutes ago, emjohnson03 said:

I can't tell you how much I loved this episode. It seems polarizing which I totally understand but for the first time this whole season, I was emotional and feeling everything that the characters were. 

Nicky I think did a good job explaining Jack, He was black and white. He saw his life before that incident and then everything after it. While I do find it hard to believe that Jack would shut his brother out like that without much of an explanation, I also feel like it makes sense that Jack took that part of himself, shut it off and moved on to be the man he wanted to be, the one his dad never could. And in that, in his mind, he had to forget his brother in moving to that place. I will say, showing that picture to Nicky of his family and then Nicky just looking at it, like, "man, what a wonderful life you made and you couldn't ask me to join you it" made me SO sad.

I wonder if those who were over in Vietnam have any insight to their dynamic, and how Nicky was so resentful of his life and Jack was just trying to make it better, even being in the hell that they were. I wonder if any of these men could say better why Jack might have done this to his brother because of circumstances. So many men just came home and didn't talk about it and I can't imagine Nicky ever being able to tell Jack in a letter and even in person, couldn't tell him the truth. What a sad and lonely life his brother lived and didn't even know Jack had died.

I just thought it was a very flawed and very human episode even if many didn't like what Jack had done. At the end though, his family did come back for Nicky and I do think at some point, Jack may have changed his mind about everything but he died so young, he really didn't have the chance.

While I am not a Vietnam veteran, I do wonder if Jack had gotten real therapy if his approach to Nicky would have played out differently.  I can see why Jack needed to distance himself from Nicky in order to keep his sanity, but he lacked the tools to effectively communicate this.  Bottling everything up until almost explode and then letting that steam off at a boxing ring is not therapy.  Jack just shut Nicky off when he tried to tell him that it was an accident because Jack could not handle the rest of the sentence, and it is always about Jack.  Jack did hesitate while at the convenience store and he knew that he did need to hear Nicky out, but he was not prepared at that time to listen.  I do wonder if he would have shown up at Nicky's if he had not died so suddenly.  He was working the program and he must have felt that he needed to make amends to Nicky in some way.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, NicoleMN6 said:

What’s saddest to me is that Nicky WAS finally getting better in Vietnam, during that fishing trip with the little boy. (He was laughing and able to enjoy the innocence of the boy instead of envisioning him as his enemy.) Until the accident.

Wasn't he lying around fantasizing about shooting Vietnamese people doing finger guns at them?

[WendyM]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

 

Another thing, Jack and Nicky's parents knew that Nicky was alive.  They were his next of kin and the army would have contacted them if Nicky had died.  Jack would never have been able to hide this.  I guess we will see more flashbacks about this time when it comes to their mother

Yeah, this too. Nicky has to be living on some kind of benefits, too. However, if Jack told his parents Nicky deliberately killed that child...ugh.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, ClareWalks said:

As awful as it is that Jack cut Nicky off (and wouldn't even let him explain, WTF), it's kind of nice to see Saint Jack brought down a peg. It was absolutely ridiculous in the first two seasons how FLAWLESS Jack was (even with alcoholism).

I didn't see him as flawless, alcoholism aside.  He was possessive with Rebecca , coddled Kate, undercut Rebecca with the kids (I'm remembering Halloween, overruling dietary choices).  What he did with Nicky was another level of flaw, though. 

 

3 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

While I am not a Vietnam veteran, I do wonder if Jack had gotten real therapy if his approach to Nicky would have played out differently.  I can see why Jack needed to distance himself from Nicky in order to keep his sanity, but he lacked the tools to effectively communicate this.  Bottling everything up until almost explode and then letting that steam off at a boxing ring is not therapy.  Jack just shut Nicky off when he tried to tell him that it was an accident because Jack could not handle the rest of the sentence, and it is always about Jack.  Jack did hesitate while at the convenience store and he knew that he did need to hear Nicky out, but he was not prepared at that time to listen.  I do wonder if he would have shown up at Nicky's if he had not died so suddenly.  He was working the program and he must have felt that he needed to make amends to Nicky in some way.  

Really good point.  There's no way he could have felt very good with the knowledge of how his brother was living.  He kept this from Rebecca for a reason.  He was definitely not at peace with it.

[BonnieD]

I was almost positive that Nicky went AWOL and was living the life of a deserter so knowledge of his whereabouts or existence would put the family at risk of breaking the law. Something along those lines anyway. It would certainly explain not telling the family about him, letting them think he died in Vietnam. Maybe that's yet to come, but probably not.

[debraran]

Nicky wasn’t a pedophile or serial killer. There was no logical reason to keep up the facade he was dead. He could have said he had issues with him etc and they didn’t speak, but dead? His address was listed, he gets checks it seems ,nothing he did would make me say “dead “after what happened.  Imagine if Nicky died and they contacted jack as next of kin somehow .  That’s a story. 

[ChicksDigScars]

13 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Just made it to the end and I did cry. But what kind of brother turns so finally on his own brother he even lies about it? Really sad. 

A brother that was at wit's end. Who tried to straighten his brother numerous times and had had enough. A brother that thought his drugged out brother was responsible for the death of an innocent child. I really don't have a problem with Jack disowning Nicky. Lying to everyone about his death, sure, but families break apart (especially dysfunctional families) all the time.  Plus, we don't know if Jack would have attempted to mend fences, or come clean to the kids once they'd hit adulthood, had he lived. Telling them that their uncle was alive, but here's why I disowned him, is not subject matter for kids. Vietnam veterans came back changed. Some close down when it comes to what happened over there. Hell, my ex-father-in-law fought in Germany in WWII, yet refused to speak of it to anyone, not even his kids. Whatever he saw, affected him that profoundly. I've always suspected that he was around during the liberation of the concentration camps, and saw the horrors, first hand. The timeline matches up, as well as where he fought.  But, he couldn't share what he saw. He refused. It was too much. My grandfather rarely spoke about his WWII experience in the Pacific, either.  They're both gone now, and I have no idea what they really saw. 

Or this:

Quote

Yeah, but given how Jack had given up his own life to enlist and try to take care of Nicky, going so far as promising Nicky's CO that he could get him straightened out, only to be met with Nicky the wallowing addict, i can see how getting a kid killed by fishing with grenades was just IT for Jack. Jack had spent his entire life protecting his little brother, who got a little boy killed due to his poor choices. 

That, combined with, as Nicky called out, Jack's black-or-white view of life and his own PTSD that was never addressed, I can see how it all went down as it did. Jack finally achieved the nuclear family he had always longed for, and a strung-out little brother who got a boy killed in Vietnam didn't fit into that picture. Jack had to make the choice, and he decided to focus on taking care of his wife and children instead.

Totally agree. 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by ChicksDigScars