The West Wing - General Discussion

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 hours ago, blondiec0332 said:

I love me some Bradley Whitford.  I liked Josh.  He would irritate me sometimes but there wasn't a character that didn't irritate me. 

So true! I think Charlie was the only one who didn't irritate me.

And man, did they trash/paint Josh as an incompetent boob in the beginning of Five. The man couldn't do anything right! Leo snuck in that pollster? whatever she was Angela from New York, who took over Josh's job. And even Leo was acting out of character.

And why am I continuing to watch since Rob Lowe and Sorkin are gone? Blech.

Since Annabeth Gish was so underutilized, I find not liking Liz. Like, at ALL. And all her anger on her husband's behalf, only to find out he'd been cheating on her? And his smug self-righteousness in asking Josh to put in a good word for him. And when that didn't happen, he's like, well, I don't need the president's endorsement anywayz, like a petulant baby.

 

[BlackberryJam]

Doug Westin (Liz’s husband) was a total douche. Total. 

I found it pretty glaring that neither Zoe nor Liz was in Ellie’s wedding episode.

[AriAu]

Sorry to be late to the party, but I was busy watching the special for the 4th or 5th time. It just made me smile...it was like seeing old friends, but mostly like listening to old friends since some looked somewhat different (yeah, I am looking at you Bradley Whitford, Allison Janney and Dule Hill) but all sounded the same. While the acting was uniformally wonderful, it really felt like Richard Schiff and Martin Sheen just calmly slipped right back into Toby and POTUS like they hadn't missed a day.

Watching Donna go out to make her campaign calls made me think of something.......did Andrew Shepard violate the Hatch Act during his "making you afraid of it and telling  you who's to blame for it" speech since he could not be any more clearly on White House property in the press room?

EDITED TO ADD  Never mind...I just remembered that the Hatch Act doesn't actually apply to the President......good thing he ended with "I am the President"!

Edited October 19, 2020 by AriAu

[Cyranetta]

Condolences to Allison Janney - her mother passed away.

[anna0852]

Just watched. Like visiting with old friends. Loved Brad's monologue at the beginning! Very funny and at the same time you could hear him choking up over John Spencer 😥

[BW Manilowe]

2 hours ago, anna0852 said:

Just watched. Like visiting with old friends. Loved Brad's monologue at the beginning! Very funny and at the same time you could hear him choking up over John Spencer 😥

Regarding the bolded: It’ll be 15 years (Already!) in December since John Spencer passed, & they all still seem to miss him like it happened yesterday. I wish/hope I have friends like that; not sure I do, for a lot of reasons.

Edited October 20, 2020 by BW Manilowe
To add a comment.

[A.Ham]

Spoiler tags just in case:

Spoiler

 

Gail the fish made an appearance!!! Though I could not tell what was in her fish bowl, maybe ballot boxes?

Anyways, I loved that Charlie made sure she was safe when CJ’s desk fell apart. Nice bit to add, as it was not in the original episode.

 

 

[Guest]

23 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Doug Westin (Liz’s husband) was a total douche. Total. 

I found it pretty glaring that neither Zoe nor Liz was in Ellie’s wedding episode.

I think I read that it was a budget issue, but I wish they had at least referred to them more.  Like make it seem like they were just in the next room somehow.

[blondiec0332]

2 hours ago, deaja said:

I think I read that it was a budget issue, but I wish they had at least referred to them more.  Like make it seem like they were just in the next room somehow.

TV shows are horrible at this.  Whenever a character should be onscreen but isn't due to some offscreen issue (budget, actor unavailable) they make their absence more glaring by simply not mentioning it.   Like you said casually say they are in another room or say Liz's kids came down with chicken pox or something.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, blondiec0332 said:

TV shows are horrible at this.  Whenever a character should be onscreen but isn't due to some offscreen issue (budget, actor unavailable) they make their absence more glaring by simply not mentioning it.   Like you said casually say they are in another room or say Liz's kids came down with chicken pox or something.

I mean it could have been as simple as talking about one of them being her maid of honor or saying something like "Liz already has the kids downstairs with the photographers, so we need to hurry before they get into things."  I don't know.  It just felt sloppy the way it was done.

[CheshireCat]

2 hours ago, deaja said:

I mean it could have been as simple as talking about one of them being her maid of honor or saying something like "Liz already has the kids downstairs with the photographers, so we need to hurry before they get into things."  I don't know.  It just felt sloppy the way it was done.

Could be that a line like that was in but then cut because it didn't do anything to move the story forward and they needed another line more urgently elsewhere.

[BW Manilowe]

7 hours ago, blondiec0332 said:

TV shows are horrible at this.  Whenever a character should be onscreen but isn't due to some offscreen issue (budget, actor unavailable) they make their absence more glaring by simply not mentioning it.   Like you said casually say they are in another room or say Liz's kids came down with chicken pox or something.

At some point around the 3rd or 4th season of the recently-ended Hawaii Five-0 reboot, Scott Caan got his work schedule on the show changed so that, for every 5 episodes his Co-Star/the show’s lead, Alex O’Loughlin, did Scott could be written out of 1 episode (at least initially... it might’ve been changed again later on; it felt like it was changed so Scott  could miss more than 1 ep for every 5 Alex did to some regular viewers, but it was too hard to actually keep track of). The reason for the reduced work schedule was, ostensibly, so he could spend more time with his family (at the least, his father, acting legend James Caan; his [female] partner &, later, their daughter, Josie James Caan, who was born in 2014, right before filming resumed for the 4th season—if not also his half-siblings from his father’s other relationships), who lived in LA while he was filming in Hawaii; this all came about after Scott’s mother died of Cancer just prior to the beginning of the show’s 2nd season.

They didn’t mention a reason for his character, Danny (who was also the team’s second in command), to be away on a work day very often either—maybe 1 of every 5 absences, if that. That bugged, because they could so easily have added a throwaway line, like he was testifying in court on a case, he had to have dental surgery, etc., & they didn’t. I probably could’ve come up with enough excuses that made sense to cover the non-appearances. At least, most of the time, if Danny had been injured in a previous episode McGarrett or 1 of the other characters would be smart enough to slip a “Danny’s not here because he’s still recovering from his recent injury” excuse into their dialogue, so we got an excuse if Danny had suffered an injury previously.

But it still bugs when writers have to work around an actor’s reduced work schedule—expected or not—& they can’t come up with a clever line for another actor to toss in about why the missing character isn’t in the episode that week. You’d think, if they were clever enough to write the rest of the script they could come up with *1* more, SHORT, stinking line explaining the whereabouts of *1*, usually ever present, character in an ep.

[anna0852]

Oh that drove me nuts about 5-0!

[ProudMary]

There's a YouTube video up of The West Wing Cast Trivia Event fundraiser for the Biden/Harris campaign from last week. (48:14)  Fun!

 

[blondiec0332]

10 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

But it still bugs when writers have to work around an actor’s reduced work schedule—expected or not—& they can’t come up with a clever line for another actor to toss in about why the missing character isn’t in the episode that week. You’d think, if they were clever enough to write the rest of the script they could come up with *1* more, SHORT, stinking line explaining the whereabouts of *1*, usually ever present, character in an ep.

I think it was one of the Friends books that quoted a writer as saying he never paid attention to previous scripts when writing his scripts. If more writers are like him then that explains inconsistencies and fucked up continuity on tv shows.

I also think a lot of TV writers/producers think poorly of the viewers. That we won't notice things or we won't care when something makes absolutely no sense.  Before the internet they could get away with that but with the ability to criticize what we see onscreen in real time viewers have a voice now.  Of course that doesn't mean they will listen to  us.

When the West Wing was on the internet of course existed but it was before social media.  I think if it aired now it would be discussed on  Twitter and plots would have to be marked as spoilers until people had a chance to watch the next episode online.  I can clearly see a scene with Toby trying to explain to President Bartlett how to tweet and him resisting him becoming exasperated.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm not a fan of John Wells' writing. Like Sorkin, he wrote a good number of scripts. But I will NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVERRRRRRRR Forgive him for greenlighting killing Admiral Fitzwallace! NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER!!!!!  Or for saddling me with that annoying Kate and getting rid of Anna Deavere Smith's Nancy McNally (NSA Director). McCormack gets to be in the opening credits and Anna doesn't??!!!

I don't remember if Nancy was just sidelined, but "Liftoff" was her last episode until Leo's funeral ("Requiem") and then episode 19, which was..."Transition", but I barely remember the final season because I think I only watched Leo's funeral and recall Teri Polo being all uncomfortable as First Lady and having her staff tell her they were her...staff and they did the things that she insisted she could do herself. Or something. I just know she irritated me. And even though I rewatched when I got the dvd set, I still fast forwarded anything and all that didn't show the original cast--or who was left. Except for Donna. I continued and continue to fast forward her scenes.

So I don't know if Anna's scenes were just a non-speaking appearance or just one or two lines.

And why am I such a glutton for punishment, that I sat here, last night, and watched, in horror and fear, as Leo had that massive heart attack? Knowing that in a little over a year, John Spencer would suffer the same fate, except he wouldn't recover. Why didn't I just fast forward it?

And I don't know if this is unpopular (Still bitter this show was vaulted to a single thread), but I'm so, so, so, sick and tired of the Israel/Palestine story lines. I don't give any good goddamns about the pseudo-fictional and preaching I get from these episodes. So...fast forward it is.

I wish Haffley had been the one to get killed. Yes, I said it. I can't stand his smug, smarmy, arrogant asshole self.

Edited October 21, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[blondiec0332]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I don't know if this is unpopular (Still bitter this show was vaulted to a single thread), but I'm so, so, so, sick and tired of the Israel/Palestine story lines. I don't give any good goddamns about the pseudo-fictional and preaching I get from these episodes. So...fast forward it is.

I much preferred when the storylines were about the characters and how they dealt with what was happening.  I didn't need to hear all the details.  

 

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I'm not a fan of John Welles' writing. Like Sorkin, he wrote a good number of scripts. But I will NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVERRRRRRRR Forgive him for greenlighting killing Admiral Fitzwallace! NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER!!!!!  

I loved Fitzwallace.  He was one of many of the great supporting characters.  Which also included.....

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Or for saddling me with that annoying Kate and getting rid of Anna Deavere Smith's Nancy McNally (NSA Director). McCormack gets to be in the opening credits and Anna doesn't??!!!

I absolutely love Anna. She is such a good actress that you can't help but just be so captivated by any character she plays.  I watched American President last week and she was an aid to the president and I thought how nice she got promoted on the West Wing.

Edited October 21, 2020 by blondiec0332

[BlackberryJam]

Oh I loved Admiral Sissymary and Dr. Strangelove! Some of the best side character interactions were Fitzwallace and McNally.

It always bothered me how they went from McNally being totally down with bombing the crap out of Qumar to her not wanting to be aggressive after Zoe's kidnapping. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I also adore Tim Matheson and just got whiplash over how they kept flipping his character. He’s an asshole! No, he’s really a good guy. No! He’s a cheating asshole! The worst part was that retcon of him and CJ. Especially since there was no indication there was any history between them along those lines during their few face to face interactions.

So as I’m sitting here, watching season six, I can’t remember what ultimately happened with Hoynes.

Edited October 22, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[BW Manilowe]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I also adore Tim Matheson and just got whiplash over how they kept flipping his character. He’s an asshole! No, he’s really a good guy. No! He’s a cheating asshole! The worst part as that retcon of him and CJ. Especially since there was no indication there was any history between them.

So as I’m sitting here, watching season six, I can’t remember what ultimately happened with Hoynes.

Regarding the bolded: Hoynes resigned due to a sex scandal. He was having an affair with a woman named Helen Baldwin (I think), & he would tell her all sorts of government-related things he wasn’t supposed to in the course of “pillow talk”. She decided to write a book about the affair/all the stuff he was telling her that he had no business telling her. A Washington gossip columnist mentioned the book, or the book deal & what it was about, in his column & that precipitated Hoynes’ resignation as VPOTUS & “Bingo Bob” Russell’s ascension to the office.

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 minutes ago, BW Manilowe said:

Regarding the bolded: Hoynes resigned due to a sex scandal. He was having an affair with a woman named Helen Baldwin (I think), & he would tell her all sorts of government-related things he wasn’t supposed to in the course of “pillow talk”. She decided to write a book about the affair/all the stuff he was telling her that he had no business telling her. A Washington gossip columnist mentioned the book, or the book deal & what it was about, in his column & that precipitated Hoynes’ resignation as VPOTUS & “Bingo Bob” Russell’s ascension to the office.

It was Brooke Baldwin and this happened in season four.

But Hoynes returned in season six and has declared his run for the presidency. I just can’t remember how he was finally written off.

[BW Manilowe]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

It was Brooke Baldwin and this happened in season four.

But Hoynes returned in season six and has declared his run for the presidency. I just can’t remember how he was finally written off.

According to the West Wing Wiki, it was Helen Baldwin who had the affair with Hoynes & wrote the book about it, which caused his resignation from the Vice-Presidency. Brooke Baldwin is a real-life CNN Anchor whose newscast airs, like, 2-4PM Eastern (I’m pretty sure that’s the timeframe).

Again according to the West Wing Wiki, Hoynes wrote a book (in Season 5),  Full Disclosure, for a $5 million advance, to repair his image so he could run for President in 2006 & succeed President Bartlet. Hoynes’ 2006 presidential campaign was “temporarily suspended” during the primaries after a former Senate staffer was paid by a tabloid to talk about a sexual relationship (without talking about the actual sex) she had with then-Senator Hoynes. He retreated to Washington to be with his wife & family. Judging by comments after this disclosure, by California Governor Tillman, by Will Bailey of Bingo Bob” Russell’s Presidential Campaign, and the media, among many others; and in consideration of being dogged by rumors of his sexual exploits since the Senate, which only subsided after the book and interview, his political career is effectively over. 

This has been confirmed by the season six finale, in which he wound up as neither the presidential candidate or the running mate for the 2006 election on the Democratic side. 

Hoynes would later be present at Leo McGarry's funeral service.

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Helen, Brooke, whatever. She never appeared, so I'm not overly concerned getting her name wrong.

And all due respect, but I have watched this series. All I was saying was I didn't remember how Hoynes was finally written off the show.

The show should have just ended after season five. Halfway into the sixth season and it isn't about the main characters any longer. Josh is off campaigning for Santos; and all I'm seeing is the campaigning stuff for that idiot Bob as well.

I enjoyed watching Josh and Toby meet with Congress in the first two seasons. There was nuance. But since Season five, I can't tell who the Democrats are and who the Republicans are because ALL of them are so arrogant, smug, and full of themselves, and they all want what's best for their agenda. I wanted my President Bartlet to enter those rooms as BADASS as he did in the pilot and put ALL these ASSHATS in their place.

There's hardly any Bartlet or Leo.

And just GO AWAY, Kate! Acting as if she's granting Leo a favor by mealymouthily saying you'd like to talk to him. And then when she shows up, she's acting as if LEO asked to meet and talk with her!

I swear, Leo, Charlie, and CJ are the ONLY ones who don't bug me right now. I should stop. But I'm anal retentive and will watch till the bitter end. Being able to fast forward helps a lot!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

All I was saying was I didn't remember how Hoynes was finally written off the show.

It was down to him, Bingo Bob, and Santos (as a long-shot) for the nomination in Season 6.  Obviously, Santos was going to win because Jimmy Smits was in the credits and the other two weren't. But then there was another Hoynes sex scandal so he dropped out of the race and Santos picked up a lot of his voters.  (I believe it was an old scandal, but it just brought up all the sum of his allegations and scandals.)

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, deaja said:

It was down to him, Bingo Bob, and Santos (as a long-shot) for the nomination in Season 6.  Obviously, Santos was going to win because Jimmy Smits was in the credits and the other two weren't. But then there was another Hoynes sex scandal so he dropped out of the race and Santos picked up a lot of his voters.  (I believe it was an old scandal, but it just brought up all the sum of his allegations and scandals.)

Thanks @deaja!

And just a bit of trivia for those that didn't know, and I learned this a few years ago: Tim Matheson was the voice of Jonny Quest in that amazing 70s cartoon! Even though I had/have my issues over Hadji and how the Indian characters didn't speak with an Indian accent, that show was one of my jams in my childhood. I never knew Tim was a child actor! Okay, teen actor, because dude would have been around 17, providing the voice for a 12-13 year old!😁😅

[BlackberryJam]

I have loved Tim since he said the words, “Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damned glad to meet you.”

The Hoynes sex scandals were gross, but well...seemed in character. 

Season 6 is very uneven.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I have loved Tim since he said the words, “Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damned glad to meet you.”

The Hoynes sex scandals were gross, but well...seemed in character. 

Season 6 is very uneven.

I disagree.  His reaction to the first one was really pretty honorable - like he shouldn't have done what he did, but Jed and Leo talk about covering it up and he basically says "I did it and I need to go now, for my wife's sake if nothing else." Then suddenly in Season 5, it was one of many affairs. Then in Season 6 there was even more. To me it seemed very forced to set up drama in Season 5 and then to set up a path for Santos in Season 6.   

[PeterPirate]

Various random thoughts and reactions: 

In the HBO special, Bartlet refers to the Hudson River being an "estuary".  But in the original episode he called it a "tidal estuary".  

Even if one of the daughters was said to be out because of chicken pox, in this show that would have been code for something else.  

The last low-angle shot of Hoynes in the season 6 finale is priceless.  

I've also always found Amy distracting too.  But probably in a different way than others.  

Edited October 22, 2020 by PeterPirate

[GHScorpiosRule]

Toby makes it really hard to have any sympathy for him in "Drought Conditions".

And DAMN. I totally blanked out that fight between him and Josh.

I'm trying to understand or see why he's so angry and bitter. I guess I'm just stupid because it's all so confusing.

[BlackberryJam]

47 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Toby makes it really hard to have any sympathy for him in "Drought Conditions".

And DAMN. I totally blanked out that fight between him and Josh.

I'm trying to understand or see why he's so angry and bitter. I guess I'm just stupid because it's all so confusing.

I think the implied story is that he had a terrible relationship with his brother, who then committed suicide and Toby is dealing with anger and guilt because of that. Instead of going to a therapist (Alan Arkin appearance!), Toby releases that anger at Josh, who was a little brother to him and who also abandoned him. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I think the implied story is that he had a terrible relationship with his brother, who then committed suicide and Toby is dealing with anger and guilt because of that. Instead of going to a therapist (Alan Arkin appearance!), Toby releases that anger at Josh, who was a little brother to him and who also abandoned him. 

This is how I took it. Just like I took the shuttle leak to be that he couldn't save his brother, the astronaut, so he acted to save the other astronauts.  Lots of parallels.

[GHScorpiosRule]

20 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I think the implied story is that he had a terrible relationship with his brother, who then committed suicide and Toby is dealing with anger and guilt because of that. Instead of going to a therapist (Alan Arkin appearance!), Toby releases that anger at Josh, who was a little brother to him and who also abandoned him. 

12 minutes ago, deaja said:

This is how I took it. Just like I took the shuttle leak to be that he couldn't save his brother, the astronaut, so he acted to save the other astronauts.  Lots of parallels.

 

See? Stupid I am. That should be new name: StupidIAm. Because how much time has passed since Josh left to get Santos to run? And that he never spoke to Toby about doing this? Yet we were shown Leo urging Josh to move on, as life moves on.

I had to fucking go to imdb to find out that Mel Harris (!) was the Rafferty, and not a reporter that Toby was talking to in the bar.

Based on just this episode, (and I may change my mind after I get to the end), I can believe Toby responsible for the shuttle leak.

All I care about this episode is I can't remember the name of the music that was playing at the DNC party. Netflix's "awesome" (total sarcasm here) closed captioning told me it was "Jazz playing". I can't get the tune outta me head, and I'm trying to WORK here! 😅

[PeterPirate]

30 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

All I care about this episode is I can't remember the name of the music that was playing at the DNC party. Netflix's "awesome" (total sarcasm here) closed captioning told me it was "Jazz playing". I can't get the tune outta me head, and I'm trying to WORK here! 😅

The piece is "Take Five".   

Edited October 22, 2020 by PeterPirate

[BW Manilowe]

19 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Thanks @deaja!

And just a bit of trivia for those that didn't know, and I learned this a few years ago: Tim Matheson was the voice of Jonny Quest in that amazing 70s cartoon! Even though I had/have my issues over Hadji and how the Indian characters didn't speak with an Indian accent, that show was one of my jams in my childhood. I never knew Tim was a child actor! Okay, teen actor, because dude would have been around 17, providing the voice for a 12-13 year old!😁😅

I knew about Tim Matheson being the voice of Jonny Quest. Pretty cool.

Tim Matheson (then billed as Tim Matthiesson) also played (among other roles, I’m sure) the eldest son in the real-life blended family (he was 1 of the kids born into the father’s side) which was the subject of the movie Yours, Mine and Ours—the original 1968 version, starring the late Lucille Ball & the late Henry Fonda as the parents (there was also a 2005 remake, starring Rene Russo & Dennis Quaid as the parents of the blended family).

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 10/22/2020 at 2:23 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Based on just this episode, (and I may change my mind after I get to the end), I can believe Toby responsible for the shuttle leak.

Quoting myself because, well, I'm leaning toward CJ leaking the news to the press.

First she was the only one who questioned why the space shuttle was being weaponized.  Toby wasn't in any of those meetings, so he never knew the details. CJ only hinted at it, when she asked him if his brother ever bragged.

Second, the look on her face at the end of that episode when Annabeth, I think it was, said it had been leaked from "inside."

Third, CJ was the only one who Brock had used as a source when she was Press Secretary, and then he also helped her out. Then there was the number of times his name showed up on her call sheet.

Unless I missed something?

While they trashed Hoynes' character, at least, in the end, he was going to do the right thing, when it looked like Matt needed the boost, until he didn't.

I'm not a fan of the blonde hair on Abbey. And boy did she go through some styles in one season in season six! I actually prefer the style and color in the first season.

Now the premiere of the final season starts with Bartlet entering the library named after him. John Spencer/Leo was conspicuously absent. Did they film the premiere after he'd passed away?

And yuck. It's Season Seven. I'm just going to just watch Leo's funeral episode, Anna's last one, if she's more than a cameo and the finale. Because...yuck.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Okay now I’m confused! Toby confessed!

[Moose135]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Okay now I’m confused! Toby confessed!

To protect someone else...

[CheshireCat]

On 10/22/2020 at 1:08 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Toby makes it really hard to have any sympathy for him in "Drought Conditions".

I found it hard to have any sympathy for him throughout the series. Most of the time, he's irritatingly righteous and acts like he has not faults and knows better than anyone else.

[BW Manilowe]

19 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Now the premiere of the final season starts with Bartlet entering the library named after him. John Spencer/Leo was conspicuously absent. Did they film the premiere after he'd passed away?

No. John Spencer passed on December 16, 2005 (4 days before his birthday that year), while the show was on its Christmas/Hanukkah/New Year’s hiatus that season. They likely had been filming since about midsummer (July-ish), as usual.

As I remember, a number of people (myself included) posted, on whichever board we were posting on during S7, upon seeing the scene(s) where the various members of the former Bartlet staff arrived at the dedication ceremony for his Presidential Library that the way they were set up (as flash forwards) we couldn’t have seen Leo in them because how he would’ve had to be addressed, protocol-wise, would’ve given away who won the election... which wasn’t until the end of the season/series.

If Jed & the Bartlet staff called him “Leo”, that likely meant Vinick won the election; if they called him “Mr. Vice-President”/“Mr. Vice-President-Elect”, that meant Santos won (& you know, protocol-wise, Leo probably wouldn’t stand for being called “Leo” by Jed if he were the VP, since he NEVER called Jed anything but “Mr. President”, even in situations where he could call him “Jed” since they were supposed to be best friends before Jed became President—like Martin’s character in The American President would never call Michael Douglas’ character “Andy”, even when they were alone, though they’d been best friends before the White House days).

Donna was also missing from the former Bartlet staffers at the dedication ceremony. It was opined that if she was there, then that would give away the status of her & Josh’s relationship, somehow. Of course, in retrospect, the fact she wasn’t there probably could’ve also been an indicator of the status of her relationship with Josh. Especially since he was there. The only thing we didn’t know about him, at the time, was if he was there as a former (or returned) Bartlet staffer or as a Santos staffer. His only line during the arrivals sequence was to announce the arrival of whichever guy won the Presidency; he could’ve said that as a member of either Jed’s or Santos’ staff.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, BW Manilowe said:

No. John Spencer passed on December 16, 2005 (4 days before his birthday that year), while the show was on its Christmas/Hanukkah/New Year’s hiatus that season. They likely had been filming since about midsummer (July-ish), as usual.

As I remember, a number of people (myself included) posted, on whichever board we were posting on during S7, upon seeing the scene(s) where the various members of the former Bartlet staff arrived at the dedication ceremony for his Presidential Library that the way they were set up (as flash forwards) we couldn’t have seen Leo in them because how he would’ve had to be addressed, protocol-wise, would’ve given away who won the election... which wasn’t until the end of the season/series.

If Jed & the Bartlet staff called him “Leo”, that likely meant Vinick won the election; if they called him “Mr. Vice-President”/“Mr. Vice-President-Elect”, that meant Santos won (& you know, protocol-wise, Leo probably wouldn’t stand for being called “Leo” by Jed if he were the VP, since he NEVER called Jed anything but “Mr. President”, even in situations where he could call him “Jed” since they were supposed to be best friends before Jed became President—like Martin’s character in The American President would never call Michael Douglas’ character “Andy”, even when they were alone, though they’d been best friends before the White House days).

Donna was also missing from the former Bartlet staffers at the dedication ceremony. It was opined that if she was there, then that would give away the status of her & Josh’s relationship, somehow. Of course, in retrospect, the fact she wasn’t there probably could’ve also been an indicator of the status of her relationship with Josh. Especially since he was there. The only thing we didn’t know about him, at the time, was if he was there as a former (or returned) Bartlet staffer or as a Santos staffer. His only line during the arrivals sequence was to announce the arrival of whichever guy won the Presidency; he could’ve said that as a member of either Jed’s or Santos’ staff.

I know when John Spencer passed away. I've talked about it on this very thread. And I'm also aware that most of scripted shows resume filming in July for the next season.

But I've also seen shows aired, that it was clear the episodes were filmed either a year before or even later and aired out of order.

Bartlet would absolutely call Leo, Leo. And I don't believe that would indicate that Vinick won the election. That is your take on it.

Donna was always invited to and was at all events, able to see the president because her voice ALWAYS needed to be heard😒🙄; so if she showed up at the dedication ceremony, I don't think it would reveal anything about whatever her relationship with Josh was. At least, not to me, or to anyone else who could see that they would eventually get together. Those that watched the show regularly and those who shipped them.

They had to have that stupid twat Kate at the ceremony and that SamWannaBe Will, who admittedly, stopped being a smarmy jerk after Toby was fired and took over as Press Secretary.

Toby was at the dedication ceremony, so that took out/removed any drama over what would happen to Toby near the end of the season, since the audience knew Bartlet and Toby had made up.

And I still remain confused as to how Toby was protecting David during that whole shuttle leak subplot. Like I posted above, Toby wasn't in on those conversations about the astronauts. How would he know? Even if David bragged about the U.S. weaponizing space, how was he protecting David--who died before that incident with the astronauts--when/if he leaked that the government was weaponizing space to Brock?

Like we discussed up thread, not having Zoey or Liz at Ellie's wedding was stuck out like a huge ass thumb. Practially ALL of Washington, D.C.'s politicians were there, but the bride's sisters couldn't? I blame Wells. I'm blaming every mistake, snub, on Wells. Yes, I'm that petty. Because Charlie--someone Bartlet considered a son--wasn't at the wedding either!

But, they all were there for Leo's funeral. EXCEPT FOR SAM. Rob Lowe returns for the last three episodes, but not for Leo's funeral??!! AND neither Sam or Josh mention Leo when Josh goes to get Sam to join his staff? I blame Wells.

Are we sure Liz is a Bartlet? That she would accept that her lying, cheating, douche of a husband should be someone their children should be proud of and look up to, "no matter what he's done" is just...mind boggling.

And yes, as a palate cleanser, I watched the pilot at 2:00 a.m. this morning, so I could go to bed with a smile on my face after hearing Bartlet's "...Get your FAT ASSES out of my White House."

Just watching that pilot, Bartlet and his staff discussing world events, just highlighted, for me, how much the last two and a half seasons SUCKED.

[Moose135]

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I still remain confused as to how Toby was protecting David during that whole shuttle leak subplot. Like I posted above, Toby wasn't in on those conversations about the astronauts. How would he know? Even if David bragged about the U.S. weaponizing space, how was he protecting David--who died before that incident with the astronauts--when/if he leaked that the government was weaponizing space to Brock?

I think Toby was protecting David's widow. After David's shuttle flight had issues in S1, he may have told her "don't worry if there is a problem, there's a secret shuttle and they can rescue us."  When the shuttle mission in S7 had problems and it looked like nothing was being done to rescue them, she dialed a reporter. Not that a reporter would run with the story just on her word, but it could have given him enough to start poking around, talking to his other sources, and uncovering enough to report on the military shuttle.

[Guest]

22 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

But, they all were there for Leo's funeral. EXCEPT FOR SAM. Rob Lowe returns for the last three episodes, but not for Leo's funeral??!! AND neither Sam or Josh mention Leo when Josh goes to get Sam to join his staff? I blame Wells

That annoyed me. I think they wanted the “reveal” of Josh going to see him, but it was so ridiculous. There is no way he would have missed the funeral without good reason.

Either CJ was supposed to be the leaker and they changed their mind or it was all a series of red herrings, IMO. Richard Schiff thinks it was done to Toby because the writers had something against him personally. 

[CheshireCat]

On 10/24/2020 at 1:02 PM, BW Manilowe said:

Donna was also missing from the former Bartlet staffers at the dedication ceremony. It was opined that if she was there, then that would give away the status of her & Josh’s relationship, somehow. Of course, in retrospect, the fact she wasn’t there probably could’ve also been an indicator of the status of her relationship with Josh.

They gave away the status of CJ's and Danny's relationship, so if that was the reason, it makes little sense to me.

[BW Manilowe]

3 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

They gave away the status of CJ's and Danny's relationship, so if that was the reason, it makes little sense to me.

I know. But the results of the election & the Josh/Donna “Will they finally realize they can have a work relationship and a personal relationship at the same time (unless their employer forbids it)?” were the 2 major storylines they had to play out in the final season (I’d argue the military shuttle leaker storyline wasn’t as big in the show as they were making it out to be).

They weren’t gonna play their hands on those in the Bartlet Presidential Library Dedication flash forward; especially not Josh/Donna because so many fans (not necessarily including me) had been wanting them to “get your heads outta your asses & get together already!” for so long; especially after Josh dropped everything to fly to Donna’s bedside at the US military hospital she was evacuated to in Germany, after she was injured in the car bombing of the US delegation to Gaza which also killed Admiral Fitzwallace, & Members of Congress & some staffers who were too unimportant in the storyline to show while they were alive.

[BW Manilowe]

Speaking of the dedication of the Bartlet Presidential Library, how far forward do you think they went for that to take place in the show’s universe?

I mean, the President whose arrival they were awaiting in the scene was supposed to be either Santos or Vinick, by process of elimination (we don’t know who, at that point), & they’re at an unspecified point in their Presidency—either still in the first term or possibly somewhere in the second—but we know they only had up to 8 years, maximum, to say either was there, & in real life it seems to take forever to build a thing like that... a Presidential Library/Center/Museum (whatever you wanna call it). 

They don’t seem to get them done during the first term of the successor in real life, like they might’ve been implying they did in the show. And I still remember when the title card for the Bartlet Library dedication scene originally said “Dedication to the Josiah Bartlet Presidential Library”, instead of the correct “Dedication of the Josiah Bartlet Presidential Library”, which NBC obviously heard about & managed to fix—thankfully—for the 7th Season/Complete Series DVDs, streaming & subsequent TV airings.

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

Speaking of the dedication of the Bartlet Presidential Library, how far forward do you think they went for that to take place in the show’s universe?

There was a tag at the opening scene that it was 3 years from Today or something like that--but it was 3 years, so it's Santos' first term in this episode.

 

9 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

I know. But the results of the election & the Josh/Donna “Will they finally realize they can have a work relationship and a personal relationship at the same time (unless their employer forbids it)?” were the 2 major storylines they had to play out in the final season (I’d argue the military shuttle leaker storyline wasn’t as big in the show as they were making it out to be).

By the final season, Donna and Josh weren't employee/employer any longer. She had already quit in season six.

The shuttle leaker was absolutely a huge thing because by Toby admitting he did it, he was out of the inner circle. Toby was part of Bartlet's team since DAY ONE. And the fact that it played out over several episodes and into the final season. Keeping Margaret ALL DAY testifying; CJ and Charlie getting subpoenas. I'd say that was a big deal. Then again, I don't give any good damns about whether Josh and Donna got together or not, because that relationship, just bugged me to no end.

I don't consider the Josh/Donna when will they a major storyline. At all. This show wasn't a night time soap, after all. There was no reason not to show that Donna was right behind Josh. And the show could have ended at the dedication where the premiere left off, since the flash back was so abrupt. Plus, like I posted up thread, Toby was there in the season 7 premiere, so that cut any drama or angst as to Toby's fate during the season, and there was no doubt that Bartlet would have pardoned Toby.

[ProudMary]

For anyone without access to HBO Max at the time it was released, A West Wing Special to Benefit When We All Vote is now available free-to-all until the end of 2020 at this link:

https://www.hbomax.com/votebecause
 

Edited October 29, 2020 by ProudMary
Typo

[ifionlyknew]

12 hours ago, ProudMary said:

For anyone without access to HBO Max at the time it was released, A West Wing Special to Benefit When We All Vote is now available free-to-all until the end of 2020 at this link:

https://www.hbomax.com/votebecause
 

Thank you for the link. I just watched it and what struck me was how much of the script was still relevant today.  When Donna was telling Josh about the concerns of the couple in New Hampshire they were things that the President's opposing party were in favor of but mistakenly believed it was what Bartlett was in favor of.  And when Bartlett was talking to Sam about how he knows what to do because he listens to his people made me think how badly I miss a president who will do that.

I must be in the minority because I didn't care for Sterling K. Brown's performance as Leo. I didn't dislike it but he portrayed him as emotionless and John Spencer always played Leo as someone who you could feel his emotions right there right under the surface and could bubble out at any moment.  SKB's Leo seemed very tightly wound and I never saw JS's Leo as that way.

Edited October 29, 2020 by ifionlyknew

[Kohola3]

14 hours ago, ProudMary said:

For anyone without access to HBO Max at the time it was released, A West Wing Special to Benefit When We All Vote is now available free-to-all until the end of 2020 at this link:

A thousand thanks for posting the link.  I really needed to see that today as the world spirals out of control.  I have seen Hartsfields Landing so many times I probably do the dialog myself and the actors used so many of the same mannerisms and inflections as in the original.  

Loved how Charlie saved Gail!

I do love SKB and it's not his fault but nobody could come close to playing Leo.  As @ifionlyknew said, there wasn't that underlying emotion that John Spencer was able to project so deftly.

Very much missed:  Fitzwallace and Danny

[CailynA]

The thing about the secret military shuttle was always interesting to me, I assumed Toby had reconnected with his brother who told him about it.

What made the story even more interesting was reading the autobios/bios of several shuttle astronauts and learning there were classified shuttle flights, the entire crew was military. The world knew they flew but their mission was secret and some are still classified today.