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3 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Well, the idea is new to me.  I didn't start posting about this show until late in the last season, so was not exposed to such discussions.  I have to say, I don't find it totally implausible.

This is the first I've heard about it.  But I find it implausible as well just with how contracts and stuff typically works.  Not saying it couldn't happen, but it just doesn't seem likely to me.

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I agree the notion seems impractical from a logistical perspective.  For one thing, Swimtern plays a critical role in getting his uncle to go along with Plan Swappity-Do.  It seems highly improbable that Sorkin was involved in developing the character's backstory over several episodes just for that moment.  

On the other hand, I would definitely say The Supremes doesn't seem like a typical Debra Cahn product.   She wrote two of my favorite episodes, Abu El Banat and Institutional Memory.  They are both focused on relationships and the effect political careers have on people.  The last few seconds of IM, when CJ realizes she doesn't want to work at the White House anymore, is one of my favorite moments in the whole series. 

The Supremes is the opposite of that.  It is packed with constitutional issues and the politics that go into getting new justices onto the Court.  Mulready's reference to Harlan's Dissent is another signature moment of the series.  I watched the episode again a couple days ago and continue to be impressed by it.  

And then there's the casting.  They got a lot of high-powered players for this one episode.  Glenn Close(!), Bill Fichtner, Robert Picardo, Mitchell Ryan, and Milo O'Shea.  Maybe they did plan way in advance to create this one swansong for Aaron Sorkin.  

In the end it's impossible to know the truth.  In the commentary Cahn mentioned having many conversations with the support staff about the political process.  One also has to wonder if Sorkin could have come up with the idea of a compromise involving cookies.  I don't really care one way or the other and I don't need to know the answer; for me it was more valuable to think about the question. 

Edited by PeterPirate
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Couple of sad 6 Degrees

Doris Day was in Move Over Darling with

James Garner who was in My Fellow Americans with

Bradley Whitford

and

Tim Conway was in one very funny episode of Mad About You with

Helen Hunt who was in What Women Want with

Cliff Calley, I mean, Mark Feuerstein

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(still doesnt beat The Supremes, which I still think Sorkin wrote and gave to Debra Cahn to turn in!).

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Or perhaps the woman wrote a great script of which she is proud and for which she rightly received credit - both among fans and per WGA rules - and, whether or not she's even half as tired as I am of hearing it must have been written by Aaron Sorkin instead, when asked about the creative process she is happy to share details.

So, I haven't been on the site in a little while and I see this little flurry of activity and I want to make something clear....I don't actually think Sorkin wrote the episode and gave it to her. I have been saying that to be funny for a long time, probably since it aired since it was so good and soooooo much better than anything in Season 5 and almost felt like it was from Seasons 1-4.

I think Debora Cahn is a GREAT writer and I enjoy her stuff A LOT. I do think it has the feel of a vintage Sorkin episode ("I Love her....I love her mind...I love her shoes" is well.... Sorkinesque)and what I am really trying to say is that good writers borrow from other and great writers steal outright, and she borrowed and stole the tone and style of one of the best.

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On 5/14/2019 at 9:58 AM, AriAu said:

good writers borrow from other and great writers steal outright, and she borrowed and stole the tone and style of one of the best.

There's this from Abu El Banat, wherein Jed and Abby are talking about their children.

Abby - We didn't beat them.
Jed - There's still time.  

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Hey everyone, The West Wing has made it to the finals in two of the Primetimer Awards categories. Yay!  Let's see if we can't push it to a victory in one or both categories.  Here are direct links to both categories to make it easier for everyone here to vote.  Get clicking!

Get Your GOAT: Favourite Show of All Time

Oldie but a Goodie (or Bestie Even): Favourite Show that no longer airs

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8 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Hey everyone, The West Wing has made it to the finals in two of the Primetimer Awards categories.

Buffy?  Buffy is beating WW?  What in the hell is this world coming to?

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I spoke with Aaron Sorkin.  He said he would have voted for West Wing, but his hands were carrying his four Emmy Awards.  

Less good news:  John Wells On Possibly Rebooting ‘ER’, ‘The West Wing’ & ‘Southland’

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It is the question that comes up all the time, but Aaron and I have talked about it many times and have not really felt that it was the right thing to do. But again, you never know.

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Episode 1.03 is A Proportional Response.  The word "proportional" is spoken 8 times.  The word "proportionate" is never said.   

Edited by PeterPirate
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From The Drop-In:

Donna - Ambassador Marbury was just telling me about how royal men are schooled in the ways of courtship. King George III, for example, sailed his bride up the river Thames to music that was specially composed.

Leo - Yeah. That was just a few years before we opened up a big can of whoopass on him at the Yorktown Airport.

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Rip Torn played Nixon in Blind Ambition, wherein Martin Sheen played John Dean.

Rip Torn was also in The Lyon's Den, the show that Sam, Sam the Sunshine Man starred in when he wasnt getting enough attention so he left The West Wing!

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Congratulations to Bradley Whitford on receiving his 6th Emmy nomination earlier today (July 16th)! This year Bradley’s nominated in the Outstanding Guest Actor in a Drama Series category, for his portrayal of Commander Joseph Lawrence in The Handmaid’s Tale, which streams on Hulu (&, in a “6 Degrees” connection, stars Elisabeth Moss who, of course, played the youngest First Daughter, Zoey Patricia Bartlet, in TWW). The Creative Arts Emmys, which include presentation of the Guest Acting Emmy Awards, are supposed to air on the FXX cable channel; I think on September 21, 2019.

Also, look for Bradley’s new NBC sitcom, Perfect Harmony, which will air on Thursday nights at 8:30PM Eastern/7:30PM Central, premiering on September 26, 2019. Bradley stars in it & is 1 of the Executive Producers. This kinda snuck up on me, until recently, even though the new TV schedule was announced in May.

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2 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

Also, look for Bradley’s new NBC sitcom, Perfect Harmony, which will air on Thursday nights at 8:30PM Eastern/7:30PM Central, premiering on September 26, 2019. Bradley stars in it & is 1 of the Executive Producers. This kinda snuck up on me, until recently, even though the new TV schedule was announced in May.

Trailer...

  Very much not my speed, but best of luck to them!

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From ExtraTV Co-Stars Bradley Whitford and Amy Landecker Tie the Knot

Congratulations to the happy couple! After having been engaged for a little over a year, Bradley & his Transparent co-star (though they never shared any scenes), actress Amy Landecker, were married Tuesday in Santa Barbara, CA. It’s the second marriage for both; Bradley has 3 children, Frances, George & Mary Louisa from his first marriage.

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Well I have been away for a few months, only to return and not only to find PTV getting a makeover (which I really do not like at all!), but also to find TWW, and one or two other of my fave shows (The Wire, being another) unceremoniously dumped into the dungeon!

That said, it has been awhile since I last watched TWW in its entirety,, and on a recent re-viewing I found myself skipping through quite a lot of S1 - which back in the day would have been unforgivable of course!

I haven't found the motivation to bother with S2 yet, which again would be sacrilege only a couple of years ago when I had quite frequent boxset marathons over a number of weekends. But these days I just can't seem to find sufficient mojo to want to bother!

Perhaps with so many great shows from non-network channels to choose from these days, along with new and varied writing styles and storylines, I think I am finding TWW a little staid, safe and perhaps a little dated for this far more dynamic and interactive digital-media age.

I think the only character that really draws me into the show is Leo. For me he is The West Wing, and although the likes of CJ, Josh, Toby, Bartlet and to a lesser extent Sam, were all fully rounded and interesting characters, I always looked to Leo for his reassuring and pragmatic demeanour, and for his fatherly reassurance when things go a little awry. And of course his tragic alcoholism backstory, always has an effect on me.

As for the talk of reboots - well if it is more than just a rumour let them carry on and do one, but I don't think I'll be tuning in. 

 What's next?

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Most emotional words of the whole series for me is the end of Election, Part 2. “Thanks, boss.”

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I recently found the West Wing Weekly podcast and have started a rewatch for refreshment reasons. It's a very enjoyable way to watch the show in my opinion.

I just watched Let Bartlet Be Bartlet, which features a fabulous cold open which always makes me laugh:

Toby: Sam?

Sam: Damn it!

Leo: What?

Sam: I forgot to do something.

President Bartlet: As I look out over this magnificent vista...

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On 7/16/2019 at 9:10 PM, BW Manilowe said:

Congratulations to Bradley Whitford on receiving his 6th Emmy nomination earlier today (July 16th)! This year Bradley’s nominated in the Outstanding Guest Actor in a Drama Series category, for his portrayal of Commander Joseph Lawrence in The Handmaid’s Tale, which streams on Hulu (&, in a “6 Degrees” connection, stars Elisabeth Moss who, of course, played the youngest First Daughter, Zoey Patricia Bartlet, in TWW). The Creative Arts Emmys, which include presentation of the Guest Acting Emmy Awards, are supposed to air on the FXX cable channel; I think on September 21, 2019.

And further congratulations go out to Bradley Whitford!  He won the Emmy Award, earlier tonight, for Guest Actor in a Drama Series, for his portrayal of Commander Joseph Lawrence in Hulu’s The Handmaid’s Tale.

I think that makes 3 wins (TWW, Transparent, The Handmaid’s Tale) for 6 nominations (besides the 3 wins, 2 additional nominations for TWW, as I remember; 1 additional nomination for Transparent, for playing a totally different character than the 1 he won the Emmy for portraying the previous year/TV season).

The Creative Arts Emmy Awards, during which they present the awards for Outstanding Performance by a Guest Actor/Actress in a Comedy &/or Drama Series, will be presented on the FXX (with 2 X’s) cable network next Saturday, September 21st. At least an edited version of the presentation of Bradley’s newest Emmy & the accompanying acceptance speech should air during their broadcast.

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Aron Eisenberg was in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine with
Rene Auberjonois who was in Benson with 
Robert Guillaume who was in Soap with
Billy Crystal who was in Forget Paris with
John Spencer

What can I say, I'm a DS9 fan.  

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6 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

I was not really a TV watcher when TWW first aired, and just began watching it for the first time when a daughter gave me Netflix for last Mothers Day. 

Like the author of this article describes, it is both “depressing” and “hopeful.” 

Watching it for the first time now (just finished 4.3 last night) I feel like I have opened a time capsule 20 years after the apocalypse. 

But not only do I have better technology with which to view this time capsule’s contents than did the contemporaries it depicts, and not only does this time capsule heartbreakingly reveal the social interactions of an extinct way of life, but the quality of the writing, directing, and acting would be enthralling on its own to any TV archaeologist. 

Anyway, I feel kind of indescribably special watching it for the first time now, and wonder if Sorkin or any of the others involved in the show had any inkling of preserving a snapshot of the peak of political self-awareness and moral introspection for a future generation after the apocalypse. 

________________

article originally published at https://www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/media/2019/07/19/watching-the-west-wing-20-years-later-both-sad-and-hopeful/1721335001/

Edited by shapeshifter
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3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

....quality of the writing, directing, and acting would be enthralling on its own to any TV archaeologist. 

Amen to that.  All of it, at least in the first several seasons, was just extraordinary.  I don't think anything these days comes even close.

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From H. Con-172:  

Quote

"Whereas, in his conduct of the Office of the President of the United States, the President has engaged in a course of deceitful and dishonest conduct designed to impede and deny the disclosure of vital matters of public concern, the United States Congress hereby condemns him for acting in a manner contrary to his trust as President to the great prejudice of the cause of justice and to the manifest injury of the American people."

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On 1/23/2019 at 12:29 AM, deaja said:

Also, he comes across as such an arrogant prick in so much of the MS storyline, especially then.

My best friend has MS and Bartlet's feelings seem kind of real in that moment. It's just a very insiduous disease, if you will and considering when the show aired, it's possible that there was only the one treatment that they mention on the market at the time.

On 1/23/2019 at 12:29 AM, deaja said:

And I get he’s grieving, but smoking and dropping his cigarette butt in the National Cathedral?

His attitude about smoking annoys me throughout the show. So what if he's the President and no one would dare tell him not to smoke (apart from the people in the WH, apparently). He is the President, so he should lead with an example and that not only includes setting a good example and follow the rules but also showing respect and consideration to others. Doing something that harms someone else's health just because you can is none of these things. (Not to mention that smoking is probably a very bad idea when you have MS anyway).

On 9/24/2019 at 8:04 AM, shapeshifter said:

I was not really a TV watcher when TWW first aired, and just began watching it for the first time when a daughter gave me Netflix for last Mothers Day.

I don't even know if the show aired in Germany but someone recommended it to me when Madam Secretary started airing and I watched it a couple of years ago for the first time. I generally enjoy it, the dialogue is right up my ally. but there are some episodes especially in the earlier seasons when I think to myself: thinking very highly of yourself again, boys, aren't you? That certainly was a bunch of overconfident men at times. It doesn't bother me or diminishes my viewing experience, it's just something I noticed.

And as someone who watched it much later, I also enjoyed the later seasons. I'm not much of a fan of how they made it seem like everyone in the WH is just waiting for time to pass now in some episodes and I kind of wish they would have done more with CJ as CoS but I like the Santos campaign story.

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11 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

My best friend has MS and Bartlet's feelings seem kind of real in that moment. It's just a very insiduous disease, if you will and considering when the show aired, it's possible that there was only the one treatment that they mention on the market at the time.

I get that, but for me it was more how long it took him and Abby to really admit they did anything wrong. Like, initially, he was pissed at Toby for questioning him on it. She acted shocked that she could face repercussions for illegally administering medicine.  More stuff like that. I also wouldn't have judged it so harshly if these were actions he did soon after finding out, because it is horrible to find out you're sick.  But for 9 years later, he didn't still have that initial shock, and while I like that later, he did seem to accept that what he did was wrong, to me it took too long for him to get there.

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2 hours ago, deaja said:

I get that, but for me it was more how long it took him and Abby to really admit they did anything wrong. Like, initially, he was pissed at Toby for questioning him on it.

So was I. 😉 Should Bartlet have told his Senior staff during the campaign? Absolutely. But they didn't and I think Toby needed to get over himself. I also think that Bartlet wasn't that far off the mark when he asked if Toby was pissed he didn't tell him or that 16 people knew before him.

I found CJ's anger much more relateable because she didn't come across as righteous which I think Toby did (and often did in other situations, too).

2 hours ago, deaja said:

More stuff like that. I also wouldn't have judged it so harshly if these were actions he did soon after finding out, because it is horrible to find out you're sick.  But for 9 years later, he didn't still have that initial shock, and while I like that later, he did seem to accept that what he did was wrong, to me it took too long for him to get there.

I think it were the circumstances which pushed him to the point of being angry. Maybe he was also in some sort of denial with regards to how it would affect him and in that moment, it sort of all came crashing down.

I don't know why they chose to give him MS but I think they should have explored it a little more and/or differently to make his reactions a bit more relateable.

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2 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

But they didn't and I think Toby needed to get over himself.

But at that point, not only was there the uncertainty of how it would affect their jobs, but their whole lives.  Working for a disgraced administration, which this easily could have turned to, would have ruined their lives. As it was, Charlie was expected to rack up hundreds of thousands of legal fees if things hadn't resolved when they did. What if each of them had done that?  Toby never seemed to have had the super high paying job that Sam and I think Josh did prior to joining the administration - those types of bills would destroy most people's lives. If you add to that being unable to get a job going forward because you were seen as toxic, giving up as much as they all had to get to that point and seeing it could all crash down in an instant - I think it's easy to see why they were pissed.

That being said, I don't think he should have told the senior staff during the campaign. He should have told everyone during the campaign.   I mean, then we wouldn't have the drama of  a tv show, but that's what I think would have been the "right" thing to do.  

But overall, I think Jed is a great guy, so in one way having him act in ways I hate during this arc makes him more believable of a character.  And I do see arrogance as one of his personality traits at other times too, so to me, it is a believable downfall.

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2 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

I found CJ's anger much more relateable because she didn't come across as righteous

I liked hers best because she's the one the Bartlets had put out there time and again to answer questions about the president's health; she wasn't lying, because she didn't know, but she's the one who was going to be scrutinized almost as much as the two of them; every news station in the country (and beyond) is going to assign an intern to pull up every frame of footage in which she mentions the president's health and put together a package.  Yet she was still one of the last to be told, which made me even angrier on her behalf. 

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4 hours ago, deaja said:

But at that point, not only was there the uncertainty of how it would affect their jobs, but their whole lives.  Working for a disgraced administration, which this easily could have turned to, would have ruined their lives. As it was, Charlie was expected to rack up hundreds of thousands of legal fees if things hadn't resolved when they did. What if each of them had done that?  Toby never seemed to have had the super high paying job that Sam and I think Josh did prior to joining the administration - those types of bills would destroy most people's lives. If you add to that being unable to get a job going forward because you were seen as toxic, giving up as much as they all had to get to that point and seeing it could all crash down in an instant - I think it's easy to see why they were pissed.

I completely understand why they were angry. Still, Toby's anger seemed different from anyone else's. I felt that he often came across as entitled and that seemed to be part of his anger, too. I don't know. There was just something about it that never made me feel symapthetic towards him in that episode.

4 hours ago, deaja said:

That being said, I don't think he should have told the senior staff during the campaign. He should have told everyone during the campaign.   I mean, then we wouldn't have the drama of  a tv show, but that's what I think would have been the "right" thing to do.  

Since it was bound to come out, it probably would have been the smart thing to do.

4 hours ago, deaja said:

But overall, I think Jed is a great guy, so in one way having him act in ways I hate during this arc makes him more believable of a character.  And I do see arrogance as one of his personality traits at other times too, so to me, it is a believable downfall.

I definitely agree that there is a certain arrogance to him (just like I think there is to Toby, Josh and Sam). I just don't see this scene as he being arrogant. Just angry at the circumstances and what life has thrown at him.

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On 1/22/2019 at 11:29 PM, deaja said:

And I get he’s grieving, but smoking and dropping his cigarette butt in the National Cathedral? So so wrong.

I actually grew to like that scene. That moment when he drops his cigarette butt was so startling and disrespectful in the setting, it was both shocking and remarkable, because in any other circumstance as an adult, there's no way Bartlet would do that. He's so strong in his Catholicism. But he was so angry, because of what happened to Mrs. Landingham and Josh, so he lashed out. So the cigarette butt moment felt really powerful and almost gasp-worthy to me. He was almost saying, "I'm done with you. I don't believe in you anymore. How could you do this? How could you let it happen?" After all his reverence for his faith (especially in previous episodes like Take This Sabbath Day), it was painful yet understanding to see him rail against his God in that moment.

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On 10/10/2019 at 4:01 PM, CheshireCat said:

I completely understand why they were angry. Still, Toby's anger seemed different from anyone else's. I felt that he often came across as entitled and that seemed to be part of his anger, too. I don't know. There was just something about it that never made me feel symapthetic towards him in that episode.

I like that scene between Bartlet and Toby because neither of them are particularly admirable or right. (In different ways they're both right and both wrong.) But they're both angry and stubborn and wanting the other person to understand why they're upset, but neither one will budge. It's a very human sort of scene, very honest. It's hard to watch.

Reminds me also of the scene where Bartlet hasn't been sleeping and Toby pisses him off by making a comment about his father hitting him when he was a kid, and Bartlet snaps at him: "I don’t know what the hell goes on in a Brooklyn shrink’s office, but get it the hell out of my house!" Ouch, ouch ouch.

But Toby was right - Bartlet often rode that line between unthreatening / too centrist "Uncle Fluffy" versus super smart, lethal, unafraid to speak his mind Bartlet, and you never knew which one he'd choose to be (which had to be really frustrating for his staff when they wanted to accomplish things but didn't know if he'd really take a stand or not).

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7 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

That moment when he drops his cigarette butt was so startling and disrespectful in the setting, it was both shocking and remarkable,...

I totally agree and it was one of the most memorable to me.  I won't say favorite because it's not like I loved the idea but it certainly stood out as a shocking and powerful scene.  Martin Sheen did such a fabulous take on that, you could see and feel the roil of emotions there.  Throw in the Latin cursing and it's a huge stand out moment to me from not only the series but most of what I have seen on screen in my life.

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Have just been watching Season 2: 9 "Galileo" and the scene between Leo, Josh and Toby

LEO What are you smiling at? (to Josh)

JOSH Nothing, I just... Toby got the stamp assignment. 

TOBY Leo, I might need some help.

LEO Take Josh.

TOBY Thanks. Congratulations, Josh, you're choosing the next stamp.  

JOSH Wow, that happened fast. 

Such a simple but hugely amusing scene, not least for arrogant Josh to get his comeuppance!  It just reminds me how great the writing was for this show.

Edited by Zola
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I love Toby's rant in 17 People.  It's in my top two scenes of the entire show--the other being Leo telling Bartlet that he has to give the order to kill Shareef "Because you won".  Both of these moments speak to the power of the presidency.

Toby wasn't just teeing off on Bartlet just because he had lied and should be ashamed of himself.  He pointed out that for 90 minutes there had been a "coup d'etat" in which the vice president's authority was "murky" and that it was Leo who really called the shots.  It calls to mind Al Haig saying "I'm in charge" after Reagan was shot.  When presidents keep secrets from the American people, it can cause genuine problems for national security.  

There are times when this show really, really, really holds up.  

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Wasn't there a West Wing episode in which Bartlet practiced pitching a baseball, preparing to throw out the first pitch at a game?  Madam Secretary just had a similar scene.  I can't find the West Wing scene, and if there is one I'd enjoy seeing it again.

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8 hours ago, Driad said:

Wasn't there a West Wing episode in which Bartlet practiced pitching a baseball, preparing to throw out the first pitch at a game?  Madam Secretary just had a similar scene.  I can't find the West Wing scene, and if there is one I'd enjoy seeing it again.

Memorial Day - Season 5.

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1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

Memorial Day - Season 5.

Ah, that explains why I couldn't remember the episode.  I tend to skip that one! 

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 I won't say favorite because it's not like I loved the idea but it certainly stood out as a shocking and powerful scene.  

Yeah, it's more "memorable" than "favorite" for me as well. 

If we're talking favorites, well, there are too many to name, but one that's up there for me is everything involving Toby with In the Shadow of Two Gunmen / The Midterms. I love what Richard Schiff does expression-wise when he finds Josh on the steps. I love how angry and defensive he is later, arguing with CJ about how mad he is and whether or not he should see a counselor, and I love when he finally goes to see the President in the Oval Office and ends up breaking down a little. Such powerful moments.

CJ: You wanna lock up everybody with a white sheet?

TOBY: Yes, I do! Who has a problem with that? Bring 'em to me right now! YES I DO!

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The West Wing will be leaving Netflix for HBO Max.

The West Wing is walking and talking its way from Netflix to HBO Max

Excerpt: "Aaron Sorkin‘s Emmy-winning political drama, which ran for seven seasons from 1999 to 2006, will arrive on HBO Max when the streaming service launches in spring 2020, EW has learned. This news comes after the platform acquired all episodes of Friends and The Big Bang Theory for its launch."

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3 hours ago, ProudMary said:

The West Wing will be leaving Netflix for HBO Max.

The West Wing is walking and talking its way from Netflix to HBO Max

Excerpt: "Aaron Sorkin‘s Emmy-winning political drama, which ran for seven seasons from 1999 to 2006, will arrive on HBO Max when the streaming service launches in spring 2020, EW has learned. This news comes after the platform acquired all episodes of Friends and The Big Bang Theory for its launch."

Oh dear. I hope this means I have until spring 2020 to finish it. 😢

Edited by shapeshifter · Reason: 2029 is not 2020

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