The West Wing - General Discussion

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

Okay, let's do worst per season instead. That might be easier.  

Season 1: 20 Hours in LA (I do like and watch this episode, but Season 1 is so full of great episodes!)

Season 2: The Stackhouse Filibuster - the whole premise was so ridiculous

Season 7: The Wedding

Season 1:  Mandatory Minimums.  

Season 2:  The Stackhouse Filibuster.  I still watch it since it is the first of six episodes that I consider to be the best multi-episode arc of the series.  

Season 7:  The Debate.   

[BlackberryJam]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

Season 1:  Mandatory Minimums.  

Season 2:  The Stackhouse Filibuster.  I still watch it since it is the first of six episodes that I consider to be the best multi-episode arc of the series.  

Season 7:  The Debate.   

I'd banished the existence of The Debate from my mind. 

[Featherhat]

The Stackhouse Fillibuster is ridiculous but I got a lot of warm fuzzies when I used to watch it as a tween and a couple of years ago on a rewatch. Even though it doesn't make much sense I still love it for the ending when all the Senators walk on to the floor to help out. For a long time I thought Filibusters were always used for noble or at least understandable reasons! (oops). 

Although there's one line that I always remember was an eye roll even then "Stackhouse would have to know as much about Senate procedure as Josh and that was unlikely". He was a 20 year senator who had planned this filibuster, you don't think he knew the rules especially of this specific thing, better than Josh and Donna who had never been senators?

[CheshireCat]

For me, it's episode arcs that I don't like rather than the episodes themselves. The ones I like the least are the Zoe kidnapping story, the Gaza story and the solving the Israel-Palestine conflict episode.

[Eeksquire]

Oh God, I cannot remember the episode title because I skip it everytime, but: when Toby decides to save Social Security because he figures some Senator isn't running for reelection. Yikes. And yawn.

[ProudMary]

From "Enemies Foreign and Domestic"
Claudia Jean 'C.J.' Cregg: Outraged? I'm barely surprised. This is a country where women aren't allowed to drive a car. They're not allowed to be in the company of any man other than a close relative, they're required to adhere to a dress code that would make the Maryknoll Nun look like Malibu Barbie. They beheaded 121 people last year for robbery, rape, and drug trafficking, they've no free press, no elected government, no political parties, and the royal family allows the religious police to travel in groups of six, carrying nightsticks and they freely and publicly beat women. But "Brutus is an honorable man." Seventeen schoolgirls were forced to burn alive because they weren't wearing the proper clothing. Am I outraged? No, Steve. No Chris. No, Mark. That is Saudi Arabia, our partners in peace. Bonnie, then Scott.

Edited February 27, 2021 by ProudMary
Added episode title from which the quote was taken.

[CheshireCat]

I've reached the end of S6. It's interesting that the Republicans have been the "enemy" throughout the show but they've created such a likeable Republican candidate for President. Was that a result of the change of showrunners or did they do that because they thought this would make it less obvious that Santos would win?

It's strange that while Vineck considers his VP no one points out that if he brings in a moderate Democrat he may not need the conservative Republican base because he'll probably get the majority of the Independent vote and a healthy amount of the moderate Democrat vote, too. Of course, if he'd nominated a Democrat as VP, none of the Democratic candidates would have stood a realistic chance, so he couldn't nominate a Democrat. Still, I think someone on his team should have brought that up for consideration.

[PeterPirate]

"One egg is an oeuf".

"I'm ensorcelled".

Two classic West Wing lines that Aaron Sorkin used in The Trial of the Chicago 7, for which he won the Golden Globe for Best Screenplay.  

 

[CheshireCat]

After the discussion, I paid close attention to the leaker story. I don't believe CJ did it. I believe she was a red herring. First, she's the obvious choice. Second, she had numerous phone calls to the reporter in question and if she then leaked the story to him, she would be more than stupid and she's not. Third, she's genuinely surprised when she realizes she's the suspect. Yes, this is a show and this is acting but they also get directions from the director and CJ isn't an actor, so if she did it, I think she should have reacted differently. Likewise, when Toby asks if she's got a lawyer.
And, lastly, she's hesitant about the pardon. I don't think she would have been so hesitant about the pardon if she had been the leaker. Of course, it would have still been difficult for her to bring it up with the President but she told others that she doesn't even know if she should bring it up and if she had done it, I think she would have said something along the lines of she wants to because Toby has been a loyal member of the team up until then or something along those lines. I also think that she would have tried to push the President into signing the pardon if she had done it. I'm not even sure she would have allowed Toby to take the fall had she done it. He wasn't facing a slap on the wrist, he was facing jail time. I don't think she is the kind of person who would have let the father of two children go to jail for something she had done.

Also, there's a scene between her and Danny when she wants to leak him a story and he refuses because he thinks she'll regret it the moment he's out the door. Yes, characters can change but we haven't seen any indication that she changed in that regard.

There is also the scene between the President and Toby when the President tells Toby that CJ is the focus of the investigation, then Toby says they're wrong and the President says that they don't seem to see it that way. The President's words do something to Toby, there is not eye-contact and this whole scene feels like the President could know that it was Toby or at least, have an idea that it might have been him.

For a moment I wondered if Leo did it because CJ tells Toby that Leo is in trouble. But, again, if Leo did it, I believe CJ would not have hesitated about the pardon. I think the fact that she's so hesitant about the pardon is the strongest indicator at Toby truly being the actual leaker.

[Guest]

I don't think there is any way to wiggle around Toby being the leaker.  The only theory I've read that I think makes sense is if he was covering for his brother's widow.  Which, I don't think an astronaut's widow would have access to the reporter needed to leak it the way it was.  As much as I hate that plot line, I think in show universe, it only makes sense for it to be Toby.

[PeterPirate]

All I remember is that in one of the commentaries, two members of the production staff said they never wanted to think about two plotlines again:  Kazakhstan and the Shuttle Leak.  

And Santos only won because of an emergency at a nuclear power plant.  Diablo Ex Machina.  

Sigh.  Except for the last three, stellar episodes, Season 7 was a hot mess.  

[Simon Boccanegra]

On 2/25/2021 at 4:36 AM, CheshireCat said:

I didn't think ["The Long Goodbye"] was a bad episode per se as in, the acting was good. It just wasn't necessary and had little to do with the White House. Did someone from the show want to raise awareness for Alzheimer's?

I think it had more to do with the family history (father) of the playwright who wrote the episode. He wrote nothing else for The West Wing, so I assume he was a friendly peer of Sorkin's.  

That one came up recently in my first-ever complete rewatch of the series (now I'm slogging through season 5). I liked it less than I'd remembered. It was going to be a tough sell, because it was so unlike anything else in the series, not even being set in Washington. They had to nail it, and I don't think the script did that. Alzheimer's is not an unusual subject for drama, and it's been handled better elsewhere, before and after. We'd just barely heard about CJ's father before that, and the episode seemed rushed. This was understandable and necessary, but still so. We raced through all the obvious, familiar dementia scenes: Dad's forgetting things he should know in his first scene; in his second scene, he doesn't recognize CJ herself; then there's the obligatory doctor's visit; the car ride that turns perilous, etc. It was like a disease-of-the-week film compressed into 40-odd minutes. And the scenes with the love interest played by Matthew Modine did nothing for me.

Overall, it reminded me of those ER episodes with a single character on a trip to California, Mississippi, Africa, or wherever. Those were never my favorites.

[CheshireCat]

On 3/2/2021 at 12:55 PM, deaja said:

I don't think there is any way to wiggle around Toby being the leaker.  The only theory I've read that I think makes sense is if he was covering for his brother's widow.  Which, I don't think an astronaut's widow would have access to the reporter needed to leak it the way it was.  As much as I hate that plot line, I think in show universe, it only makes sense for it to be Toby.

I think one or two posters said a few pages back that they thought CJ had actually been the leaker, so I watched the story with that in mind because I hadn't been under the impression that she was and Toby was covering for her. I think if she hadn't been torn about the pardon, it would have been possible that it had been her but I think by making her torn about the pardon, they confirmed that it wasn't her or Leo and that she has no idea that it was someone else if Toby is supposed to be covering for someone.

I'm not a fan of that story either but I guess it was their way of reducing Schiff's hours. I would assume that they wanted to have all the actors on the final season but in order to do so, they all needed to have reduced hours on set. From how much they appear on the show, I would think that Schiff, Sheen and Spencer were the most expensive actors, hence, the once with the least amount of screen time.

On 3/4/2021 at 9:59 PM, PeterPirate said:

Sigh.  Except for the last three, stellar episodes, Season 7 was a hot mess.  

I could have done without the leaker story but other than that, I don't mind it so much. I like both candidates and I like that they did the campaign. I wish they had shown us more about the White House, too, because apart from the episode when CJ meets Danny again and he sort of pokes her, it seems that they barely did anything in the White House anymore other than play defense. It seems that they didn't even try to pass some of the stuff that they wanted to do. They started it with Leo who made a list but they never followed through on that which I think is a pity. However, I liked the candidates enough that I really would have liked to see the West Wing continued with the Santos administration (though maybe not with Josh as Chief of Staff, I don't know. But it could have been interesting if they had focused on foreign policy so that we would have seen interaction with Vineck. ETA: And I think it would also have been interesting if they had shown more of Helen, how she adjusts to her new role and what she chooses to do).

[oakville]

I would have liked to have the show continue with the Santos administration. I am a big fan of Alan Alda, so having Vinick spar with members of the Santos administration would have been very entertaining.

I do wish the how would have done more flashbacks on how Bartlett won the first election . IIRC they never showed the GOP nominee that he beat.

[Simon Boccanegra]

3 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

I could have done without the leaker story but other than that, I don't mind it so much. I like both candidates and I like that they did the campaign. I wish they had shown us more about the White House, too, because apart from the episode when CJ meets Danny again and he sort of pokes her, it seems that they barely did anything in the White House anymore other than play defense. It seems that they didn't even try to pass some of the stuff that they wanted to do. They started it with Leo who made a list but they never followed through on that which I think is a pity. However, I liked the candidates enough that I really would have liked to see the West Wing continued with the Santos administration (though maybe not with Josh as Chief of Staff, I don't know. But it could have been interesting if they had focused on foreign policy so that we would have seen interaction with Vineck. ETA: And I think it would also have been interesting if they had shown more of Helen, how she adjusts to her new role and what she chooses to do).

I've only seen the final two seasons once (I have "The Supremes" coming up in the Great West Wing Rewatch of '21), but I enjoyed the Santos/Vinick era first time around. We had seen some of the campaigning side of politics in season 4 and in the occasional flashback to Bartlet's first run, but I love that stuff, so I liked getting a deep dive into it with Bartlet's two would-be successors and those who fell short of the nominations. I felt the candidates and their supporting characters gave an old show some new life, and it was the point when The West Wing finally found an identity post Sorkin.  

A few bright spots aside, season 5 has been as much of a chore the second time around as I'd remembered. Episode after episode is a big shrug. Things that should be huge are no more consequential, compelling or moving than the B-story filler. I'm surprised the ratings stayed as steady as they did in that season. 

But I also felt that Sorkin's later two seasons, especially 4, showed a falling-off in quality. More of the sides of him I don't like were getting into the scripts: the lecturing, the stagy tics like repetitive dialogue, the apparent trolling of his critics. The inspiring oratory wasn't as consistently inspiring, either. (However, no matter how bland it was, it always got thunderous applause, reminding me a little of those Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip sketches we were told were hilarious.) I don't want to overstate the case, though. There are magnificent episodes that are favorites of mine in seasons 3 and 4. Far fewer in 5.

[Bastet]

8 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

From how much they appear on the show, I would think that Schiff, Sheen and Spencer were the most expensive actors, hence, the once with the least amount of screen time.

When Janney, Schiff, Whitford, and Spencer banded together to renegotiate their contracts after the show became a hit (Rob Lowe and, of course, Martin Sheen, were already being paid more), didn't they all get the same amount?

[BW Manilowe]

On 3/1/2021 at 5:53 PM, PeterPirate said:

"One egg is an oeuf".

"I'm ensorcelled".

Two classic West Wing lines that Aaron Sorkin used in The Trial of the Chicago 7, for which he won the Golden Globe for Best Screenplay.  

 

And Aaron was nominated earlier this morning for another Oscar for writing the movie (he won for The Social Network in the adapted screenplay category in 2011; he’s been nominated for other Oscars since winning, & before today I’m pretty sure). Hopefully he’ll win that second Oscar this year & finally get the other half of his pair of “Oscar bookends” he started back in 2011. Since he already won the Golden Globe, hopefully that’s a good omen.

Edited March 15, 2021 by BW Manilowe
To add some comments to clarify meaning.

[ProudMary]

12 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

And Aaron was nominated earlier this morning for another Oscar for writing the movie (he won for The Social Network in the adapted screenplay category in 2011; he’s been nominated for other Oscars since winning, & before today I’m pretty sure). Hopefully he’ll win that second Oscar this year & finally get the other half of his pair of “Oscar bookends” he started back in 2011. Since he already won the Golden Globe, hopefully that’s a good omen.

After his win for The Social Network, he was also nominated for Moneyball and for Molly's Game, but went home without his other bookend. 😥 How he didn't receive a nomination for Steve Jobs is beyond me. I walked out of the theater and said to my friend, "They should just start engraving Aaron Sorkin's Oscar right now." So much for that prediction. 🙄 Most of the predictions I've been seeing online have him as the front-runner for the Original Screenplay Oscar for The Trial of the Chicago 7. I hope that holds, especially since he was snubbed for the Best Director nomination. 😠

[ProudMary]

I'll definitely give this one a watch.
‘Wonder Years’ Reboot Pilot at ABC Casts Dulé Hill, Laura Kariuki
 

Quote

The project will show how a black middle-class family in Montgomery, Alabama in the turbulent late 1960s, made sure it was The Wonder Years for them too.

Hill will star as family patriarch Bill Williams. He’s a music professor by day and a funk musician by night – described by Adult Dean as “The baddest guy I knew.” Almost always calm and composed, his favorite words are “be cool.” Bill wants his family and their black, middle class neighborhood to remain self-sufficient and he puts his money where his mouth is.

 

[UYI]

So this happened. On March 19th, so over a month ago, but better late than never to post it here!

 

[ProudMary]

In case you haven't seen it, first round voting for The Primetimer awards is happening this week. You have until Friday to vote for the Greatest Show of All Time. Even if you're not interested in voting in the other categories, just head on over to this link and vote for The West Wing!
The GOAT: Greatest Show Of All Time

[shapeshifter]

4 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

In case you haven't seen it, first round voting for The Primetimer awards is happening this week. You have until Friday to vote for the Greatest Show of All Time. Even if you're not interested in voting in the other categories, just head on over to this link and vote for The West Wing!
The GOAT: Greatest Show Of All Time

I did. Now I just hope the run-off doesn't pit WW against BrBa, because I'm not sure what I would do. 😟

[Guest]

On 6/17/2021 at 2:24 AM, shapeshifter said:

I did. Now I just hope the run-off doesn't pit WW against BrBa, because I'm not sure what I would do. 😟

BrBa? I looked at the nominees to figure it out and couldn’t, so please help. :)

 

ETA- oh wait. Breaking Bad

[Cetacean]

2 hours ago, deaja said:

ETA- oh wait. Breaking Bad

Doesn't hold a candle to West Wing.

[shapeshifter]

5 minutes ago, Cetacean said:

3 hours ago, deaja said:

ETA- oh wait. Breaking Bad

Doesn't hold a candle to West Wing.

Mileage varies, but BrBa does hold a magnet. 😆

[PeterPirate]

One of the WW lines that I say to myself is "Let's see how the pizza turns out", when I am waiting for the outcome of something.  

And from now on I will also think "Unsliced and on the roof".  

[ProudMary]

The West Wing didn't even make the cut to be voted on in the final round of the Primetimers. 😞
For the record, neither did Breaking Bad. 🤷‍♀️

[shapeshifter]

12 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

The West Wing didn't even make the cut to be voted on in the final round of the Primetimers. 😞
For the record, neither did Breaking Bad. 🤷‍♀️

I know! Our friendly feud fizzles ignominiously. 😶

[ProudMary]

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I know! Our friendly feud fizzles ignominiously. 😶

I don't think people understand the meaning of "Greatest Show of All Time."  Otherwise, we certainly wouldn't be looking at WKRP in Cincinnati as a finalist. 🤦‍♀️ BTW, I did watch and enjoy WKRP, but that doesn't make it a G.O.A.T. candidate!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ProudMary said:

I don't think people understand the meaning of "Greatest Show of All Time."  Otherwise, we certainly wouldn't be looking at WKRP in Cincinnati as a finalist. 🤦‍♀️ BTW, I did watch and enjoy WKRP, but that doesn't make it a G.O.A.T. candidate!

Every year, I’ve been like “what?” at the show that win GOAT. 
I just don’t understand WRKP and Great British Baking being nominated in a world where West Wing and Mad Men exist.

[wknt3]

11 minutes ago, deaja said:

Every year, I’ve been like “what?” at the show that win GOAT. 
I just don’t understand WRKP and Great British Baking being nominated in a world where West Wing and Mad Men exist.

Well leaving aside the inherent issues of the idea of GOAT given the diversity of genres and the vast changes in technology and culture meaning that you will always end up trying to compare apples and hand grenades and splitting the vote, it is simply a fact that "As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly" beats anything in Season 5.

[caitmcg]

None of those shows make sense to me in GOAT context. I never watched the X Files, but I’ve seen and liked the others, but no. small voice/ I don’t rate WW among mine, either /small voice. But I get it.

[Cetacean]

I guess my definition of a GOAT would be great writing which includes both humor and drama, a dash of "teaching moments" that make me think even if I didn't agree, episodes where I both laughted and cried in that single hour, and lines I remember and use decades later.  Then throw in great actors that had chemistry and storylines that (mostly) made sense.  That's the WW to me.

In Excelsis Deo will remain my favorite episode of all of my TV viewing for the rest of my life. Nothing these days even comes close.  I doubt anything ever will.

And to think I almost did not watch.  What could be good about a show with an emphasis on the government?  But my favorite Detroit News TV critic wrote highly of it and I normally agreed with his choices.  I didn't start watching until it was in reruns that first year.  To think what I would have missed.....

[AriAu]

On another topic, people have asked about TWW swag so see this site.

https://lemonlyman.shop/product-category/episodes/

Pretty clever, but some are a little too on the nose for me and others are not that good looking (in my opinion), and none can top the Josiah Bartlet Presidential Library shirt I bought about 10 years ago, but I'm thinking of an investment in the Cartographers for Social Equality or  Hartsfield Landing shirts as a way of identifying true Wing Nuts and the Big Block of Cheese one since it is cool looking.

[Cetacean]

15 minutes ago, AriAu said:

On another topic, people have asked about TWW swag so see this site.

 

Holy cow, so many great lines!  Definitely something that would attract the eye of Wing Nuts - and the upside down world from the cartographers frankly freaked me out as well.

[Driad]

Cool TWW swag, but where are the muumuus?

If we could design a fabric print for TWW muumuus, what would it show?  I wouldn't want it to say West Wing or have pictures of the characters.  More subtle items, like Gail the goldfish, a roast turkey, and a Paul Revere carving set.  What else?

[Cetacean]

21 minutes ago, Driad said:

What else?

A bicycle, a tennis ball, big block of cheese (a must), a picture of Pluie, books written in Latin, a cello

[ProudMary]

7 hours ago, Driad said:

Cool TWW swag, but where are the muumuus?

If we could design a fabric print for TWW muumuus, what would it show?  I wouldn't want it to say West Wing or have pictures of the characters.  More subtle items, like Gail the goldfish, a roast turkey, and a Paul Revere carving set.  What else?

A Raggedy Ann doll with a knife stuck through its throat (that would be quite a macabre muumuu!); a book of Eskimo poetry; a black Vera Wang; a cricket bat; a voice recorder being smashed by a gavel.

 

[AriAu]

On The Rewatchables podcast, they have a topic "What prop would you most like to have from the movie?"......which I think is the same as what you are discussing, except that the prop has to actually exist.

Assuming you cant take like the entire set and need to pick specific items, I think that any answer other than "these knives were made for my family by a Boston silversmith named Paul Revere" is just wrong......altho I think "a cricket bat given to me by Her Royal Majesty Elizabeth Windsor" would be a close second.

Edited to add.....

Ooops, serious brain cramp......the only other acceptable choice was given back to POTUS by Mallory........THE napkin, preferably in the frame.

Edited July 9, 2021 by AriAu

[supposebly]

I have continued rewatching season 1 of the West Wing yesterday and I'm afraid I may like the show a lot less than I used to if I continue.

It's the episode Enemies. There is a scene where Hoynes says something to a committee about the primary goal to be getting the banking bill through congress. Bartless enters the room and catches the last part and goes: shouldn't our primary goal to be to serve the American people? Hoynes says that's not what he meant and then it gets blown out of proportion and the woman who took minutes seems to have said something to Danny.

I really hated Bartlett at that point. What the hell was that about? And when Hoynes goes to clean the air, Bartlett goes, you shouldn't have made me beg. Apparently he was a bit reluctant to join him right after he had just lost the primary to Bartlett. No kidding.

So very very petty.

Overall, from what I remember, the writing for Hoybes became very problematic later on. I wondered if that was supposed to prepare us for that? Because it did the exact opposite for me.

[Guest]

On 8/4/2021 at 10:52 AM, supposebly said:

I have continued rewatching season 1 of the West Wing yesterday and I'm afraid I may like the show a lot less than I used to if I continue.

It's the episode Enemies. There is a scene where Hoynes says something to a committee about the primary goal to be getting the banking bill through congress. Bartless enters the room and catches the last part and goes: shouldn't our primary goal to be to serve the American people? Hoynes says that's not what he meant and then it gets blown out of proportion and the woman who took minutes seems to have said something to Danny.

I really hated Bartlett at that point. What the hell was that about? And when Hoynes goes to clean the air, Bartlett goes, you shouldn't have made me beg. Apparently he was a bit reluctant to join him right after he had just lost the primary to Bartlett. No kidding.

So very very petty.

Overall, from what I remember, the writing for Hoybes became very problematic later on. I wondered if that was supposed to prepare us for that? Because it did the exact opposite for me.

Yeah, Bartlet was a real jerk at times. But in a consistent way, which to me made him seem more real.  Like, his big flaws were always similar and related to ego. Which, a person in his position will almost always have a huge ego - even aside from being President, a wealthy person whose roots trace back to a signer of the Declaration of Independence, Nobel Prize winner, etc. He wasn't used to being told no or not getting his way in life.

I did hate the Hoynes storylines later on - Season 5 on, but I don't think this was foreshadowing anything more than Hoynes and Bartlet not being friends.

[PeterPirate]

It's been a while since I've done one of these.  As a youth I was completely infatuated with her.

Markie Post was in Night Court with
Dan "Cricket Bat" Larroquette  

[Cetacean]

I always wondered if Fitz AKA Admiral Sissymary was based on Colin Powell.

[Moose135]

When PTV worlds collide - from Monday's Jeopardy! in the category "Fictional Africa".

Edited October 19, 2021 by Moose135

[ProudMary]

20 hours ago, Moose135 said:

When PTV worlds collide - from Monday's Jeopardy! in the category "Fictional Africa".

The woman who answered correctly, sounded giddy when she said, "What is The West Wing?" 

She's one of us. ☺️

[Guest]

Food for thought - at the beginning of Season 6, if Leo hadn't had a heart attack, do you think he would have followed through with his resignation? Or would he and Jed have patched things up?

[PeterPirate]

From Eppur Si Muove:

Abbey - Ok, Elmo. It's time for your vaccination and I'm going to give you a little injection.

 

[Driad]

Classic West Wing Thanksgiving moments

[Cetacean]

1 hour ago, Driad said:

Classic West Wing Thanksgiving moments

Absolute classics.  God, I miss this kind of quality.

[MaryMitch]

Last night I finished a re-watch of the series. I first watched it during the previous administration.  Even though the previous and current administrations are so different, I think the show ages well and most of the plots are still relatable.

(But I hate CJ's hair in the last season. 😁 )

Edited November 20, 2021 by MaryMitch