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S03.E03: The Big Never

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8 minutes ago, izabella said:

Are you talking about the picture, or the dead boy?  I wasn't referring to the picture.  I didn't see a rosary on the dead boy, but it's very possible I missed it. 

Sorry, I meant to say hands in prayer like with a rosary (as might be common for funerals)- I don't think there was a rosary on the body in the cave either, but the hands were definitely positioned into prayer hands.

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Did they realize have the technology in 1990 to enter fingerprints into a computer system, and have the computer search all the fingerprints in a huge database to find a match?

I know that they could match a set of particular fingerprints, obviously - but that doesn't appear to be what happened here.

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4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

My mind goes to a pure speculation about the shoot, in which the sound guy lets the director know he can't make out Mahershala, and the director asks Mahershala to speak a little more distinctly, and Mahershala fires back, "Do you want it clear or do you want it RIGHT?" At which point the director sighs and thinks to himself, "Well, at least there'll be closed captioning."

Based on a recent interview with Mahershala, I can't imagine him responding like that. He's a sweetheart.

 

 

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

the scene with old Hays and the memory of his wife showing up,

That scene bugged me because it was almost identical to one of those low budget commercials for prescription medication for hallucinations caused by another medication for Parkinson's.  

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I was watching tennis last night, so I'll be watching the Ep. 3 tonight.  I'll try closed-captioning to see if it helps, but I'm thinking I don't want to work "that" hard to follow the story.  We'll see!!!

ETA:  Thanks to you guys & CC, I thoroughly enjoyed this episode.  Looking forward to next week!!

Edited by Medicine Crow · Reason: Additional info.
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1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

Did they realize have the technology in 1990 to enter fingerprints into a computer system, and have the computer search all the fingerprints in a huge database to find a match?

I know that they could match a set of particular fingerprints, obviously - but that doesn't appear to be what happened here.

The FBI has been matching fingerprints since the '30s, pre-computer. A single print left on a fuel can used in the Bremer kidnapping was matched to Dock Barker, identifying the Barker-Karpis gang as the kidnappers. It was done the old fashioned way, with the Mark I eyeball, comparing the print to those of the same type (there are different types, the most common patterns being arch, whorl, and loop).

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2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Did they realize have the technology in 1990 to enter fingerprints into a computer system, and have the computer search all the fingerprints in a huge database to find a match?

I know that they could match a set of particular fingerprints, obviously - but that doesn't appear to be what happened here.

5 HOURS AGO, DROGO SAID:

Lots of my friends' parents took them to events from LE where non-missing kids' fingerprints were taken, put on cards for the parents and added to the national database in casethey ever went missing. That was the 80's. Recently the subject came up that they're lucky none of them committed a crime thinking their prints wouldn't come up in searches.

I remember that going on. I knew there was something about it that seemed wrong about it to me at the time.

Anyway, in the rural community where I lived with my elementary school-age kids at the time, we didn't have access to anything like that—but that doesn't mean the show's small town didn't have it.

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8 hours ago, mxc90 said:

When the father was praying and the camera was panning the box of files, one folder had abduction spelled "Abdvction".  It was clearly a "v". Is this a show mistake or clue or just nothing?

I didn't pay attention to the kidnapper's note to see if there were any misspellings.

Screenshot of the note:

U7RfMyy_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&f

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I think Walmart daughter may not be alive in present.  I think they are just telling hays she's in LA.  It was just last week during the dinner table scene.  They all acted weird when her name came up.

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I'm waiting for this show to solve the far greater mystery for me: Why did Amelia marry Wayne? Sure, he's super hot but he comes across in all their interactions as a dour sourpuss.  

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2 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

I'm waiting for this show to solve the far greater mystery for me: Why did Amelia marry Wayne? Sure, he's super hot but he comes across in all their interactions as a dour sourpuss.  

Maybe she was pregnant? (just speaking from experience in the 80s)

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13 hours ago, crookedjackson44 said:

The scene in Walmart was terrific.  The tension and panic rose so very fast, and when Hays found his daughter, he responded with anger and his daughter cried, just as she should have.  Simple but authentic.

I FF'd through it, because I predicted it a minute earlier when Hay s told his kids to stay close to him, clearly a personal response to the case. It wasn't going to go anywhere, and didn't.

I understand what everyone says (the audio) just fine. I think this show isn't about the case. It's about Hays. And so far my interest is minimal. No urgency nor danger.

Edited by Ottis
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14 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

Very good point.  My eyebrows went up at the hawk and dove part but  from having lived in Arkansas I know that there are a number of break-off from Baptist or Evangelical churchs and was wondering if any used that kind of imagery.  Doesn't mean Animist, just some kind of "weird old America" preaching speak

There's a sizable Native American population in Arkansas isn't there? I know I've heard similar prayers from Native Evangelicals. If his AA group has several Natives he might have picked it up from one of them. 

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14 hours ago, crookedjackson44 said:

The scene in Walmart was terrific.  The tension and panic rose so very fast, and when Hays found his daughter, he responded with anger and his daughter cried, just as she should have.  Simple but authentic.

"Stores aren't supposed to be this big."

-Wayne Hays, shopping at Walmart in 1990

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I had my fingerprints taken when I was a child in the 1980s. It happened at an event coordinated with the local police, who came to my mother's Parents Without Partners group meeting. My hometown is a medium-sized city.

I wonder if the child fingerprinting initiative back then was in response to the abduction and murder of Adam Walsh...?

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2 hours ago, Ottis said:

I FF'd through it, because I predicted it a minute earlier when Hay s told his kids to stay close to him, clearly a personal response to the case. It wasn't going to go anywhere, and didn't.

I understand what everyone says (the audio) just fine. I think this show isn't about the case. It's about Hays. And so far my interest is minimal. No urgency nor danger.

It isn’t just about Hays.  It’s also about the nature of memory.

2 hours ago, Utpe said:

"Stores aren't supposed to be this big."

-Wayne Hays, shopping at Walmart in 1990

He wasn’t half wrong.  

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10 hours ago, Diana Berry said:

I think Walmart daughter may not be alive in present.  I think they are just telling hays she's in LA.  It was just last week during the dinner table scene.  They all acted weird when her name came up.

That thought crossed my mind too.  Henry got upset and left the table when Hays asked about her the second time.  I’m curious as to what happened with her. 

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Something about the way the documentary producer keeps saying "Julie and her father" makes me think Julie was taken by her bio-dad. The insistence on playing the pro-noun game and that fact that even Hayes doesn't say Purcell makes me think Julie's father isn't the man we've been introduced to. Which is something I'm actually surprised Hayes and his partner haven't taken more seriously in 1980. Most kidnappings are custody disputes. Although I suppose that might have been less true in 1980. 

Of course that doesn't quite seem to fit with the planned out nature of Will's death. It could be though that the killer wanted to kill both kids but Julie ran off and her father took it as an opportunity to take Julie without being blamed. It could also be the Julie's father has a screw loose and planned to kill Will and take Julie the whole time. I do feel like we are looking for a killer and a kidnapper not one villain. The killing of Will was methodical and planned out. The note sent by her kidnapper was erratic and odd.  The syntax of the note is down right strange, it almost reminds me of Eastern European ESL speakers. 

Also the creepy old man had something to do with it calling it now. I actually hope he is the one convicted not Woodward. He could have a son that did it and he covered up for him. 

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More questions than answers in this episode.  I wonder how much Hayes' dementia played tricks on him in regard to his present day investigation.

In previous episode, it was clear that they got the wrong guy for the murder in 1980.  Hayes was most likely exiled to a desk job shortly after arguing against whoever decided to convict that wrong guy.

 

1 hour ago, Emily Thrace said:

Most kidnappings are custody disputes.

I hadn't thought about that angle.  I will put my speculations and respond to yours in the appropriate thread ;)

14 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

I'm waiting for this show to solve the far greater mystery for me: Why did Amelia marry Wayne? Sure, he's super hot but he comes across in all their interactions as a dour sourpuss.  

Whatever the reason was, it was strong enough for her to propose an all night sex session with him 10 years later :D

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Just now, DarkRaichu said:

Whatever the reason was, it was strong enough for her to propose an all night sex session with him 10 years later :D

And it took him entirely too long to leave the fucking Walgreens and head to the motel. 

"What do you want to do?"
"I saw a motel back th--"

giphy.gif

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On 1/20/2019 at 11:06 PM, Diana Berry said:

Unfortunately , I can't figure out that option on my tv. I have to end up rewatching every episode.

What cable/dish system do you have? It's usually accessible from the cable remote if you can't figure it out from the tv.  hope that helps

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17 hours ago, Diana Berry said:

I think Walmart daughter may not be alive in present.  I think they are just telling hays she's in LA.  It was just last week during the dinner table scene.  They all acted weird when her name came up.

I think it's probably just because Hays is mostly responsible for whatever falling out they had. And either he forgot about it, or refuses to own up to his part in it. So they learned it was better just to not talk about her. 

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Okay this show is really slow...but know what...it's great, I am really enjoying it...not as much as the first season, but man, it's pretty damn good. 

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On 1/21/2019 at 1:13 PM, mxc90 said:

When the father was praying and the camera was panning the box of files, one folder had abduction spelled "Abdvction".  It was clearly a "v". Is this a show mistake or clue or just nothing?

I didn't pay attention to the kidnapper's note to see if there were any misspellings.

"Should" was spelled "shud."

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Is it possible that modern day Hays is going to solve the crime that he couldn't in 1980, 1990 and whenever Amelia's book was written?  It seems as though that's where this is going.  Hays' mind seems to be able go places that it wasn't before he was ill with whatever he has (Alzheimers or dementia).

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2 hours ago, Dminches said:

Is it possible that modern day Hays is going to solve the crime that he couldn't in 1980, 1990 and whenever Amelia's book was written?  It seems as though that's where this is going.  Hays' mind seems to be able go places that it wasn't before he was ill with whatever he has (Alzheimers or dementia).

This is speculation, so I'm putting it in a spoiler.

Spoiler

The case was solved in the '90s. Something happened to Hays' daughter, dead or missing possibly, and Hays has confused the cases due to his dementia. He's trying to solve his daughter's case, while thinking it is the girl's case.

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1 hour ago, Gobi said:

This is speculation, so I'm putting it in a spoiler.

  Reveal hidden contents

The case was solved in the '90s. Something happened to Hays' daughter, dead or missing possibly, and Hays has confused the cases due to his dementia. He's trying to solve his daughter's case, while thinking it is the girl's case.

After the 3 episodes do we know if the case was solved following the discovery of the girl's prints in the store?

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1 hour ago, Gobi said:

This is speculation, so I'm putting it in a spoiler.

  Reveal hidden contents

The case was solved in the '90s. Something happened to Hays' daughter, dead or missing possibly, and Hays has confused the cases due to his dementia. He's trying to solve his daughter's case, while thinking it is the girl's case.

After the 3 episodes do we know if the case was solved following the discovery of the girl's prints in the store?

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28 minutes ago, Dminches said:

After the 3 episodes do we know if the case was solved following the discovery of the girl's prints in the store?

We do not know yet. There have been strong hints, with references to something that happened with the girl and her father in the '90s. See the speculation thread for more, well, speculation.

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The Walmart scene was really well done and perfectly acted by Mahershala Ali (of course!)  Curious about what happened to his daughter, since we haven't seen her yet and his son's reaction to her name last week seemed to hint she wasn't around.  Is she dead?  Or was there a falling out of some kind?  And could that be related to Wayne's distance with Amelia in their later years?

Liked that the 90s segments aren't just going to be deposition interviews anymore, and it is now about the original case being reopened, but Roland being the one in charge, due to moving up in the world, while Wayne fell behind for mysterious reasons.  But I wonder how Wayne will handle Roland being his superior instead of his partner.

Definitely think the trash guy/Michael Greyeyes was actually pulling out a big gun instead of a body.  Either way, he's totally a red herring.

Looks like the victim's dad is still around in the 90s, but the mother will be dead.

Agree that the accents and volume make it hard to hear them at times, but I really enjoying this more than the last season.  Mahershala Ali, Carmen Ejogo, Scott McNairy, and Stephen Dorff are shining here so far.

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8 hours ago, Dminches said:

Is it possible that modern day Hays is going to solve the crime that he couldn't in 1980, 1990 and whenever Amelia's book was written?  It seems as though that's where this is going.  Hays' mind seems to be able go places that it wasn't before he was ill with whatever he has (Alzheimers or dementia).

I really love this idea of Hayes' dementia allowing him to see things in a way he could not when all parts of his brain were firing, and that the uncluttered parts that remain will give him a clarity to solve it--perhaps with the help of others--although @Gobi's idea seems likely and good too.

 

 

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

Liked that the 90s segments aren't just going to be deposition interviews anymore, and it is now about the original case being reopened, but Roland being the one in charge, due to moving up in the world, while Wayne fell behind for mysterious reasons.  But I wonder how Wayne will handle Roland being his superior instead of his partner.

I reasonably trust the show (writing, acting, directing) to handle this with a nuance that won't offend.

 

 

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

Looks like the victim's dad is still around in the 90s, but the mother will be dead.

I understood that the mom was dead from this conversation in the 90s when Roland visited the dad:
   [Dad]: You know,  I think of Lucy. I wish she was still around to hear this. Two years ago now.
   [Roland West]: Alan had her file.
   [Dad]: I had the body brought back from Vegas

Edited by shapeshifter
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2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Curious about what happened to his daughter, since we haven't seen her yet and his son's reaction to her name last week seemed to hint she wasn't around.  Is she dead?  Or was there a falling out of some kind?  And could that be related to Wayne's distance with Amelia in their later years?

According to Wayne's son, she's in California:

Wayne: Maybe you guys could see about getting Rebecca out here. I'd like to see her.
Teddy: She's in LA, Dad.
Wayne: When did that happen? What's she doing out there?
Heather: She's playing music, Wayne.
Wayne: She okay? You talk to her?
Heather: I talked to her a few weeks ago.
Wayne: Think she'd come back home for a visit?
Teddy: She don't like it here, Dad.
Wayne: Why not? 
Teddy: I just don't think it suits her. She never liked it.
Wayne: She didn't?

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Random memory: a female family friend tried to be an FBI agent in the 70s. As an agent-in-training she worked an overnight shift, doing nothing by looking at fingerprints through a lens, searching for matches - eight hours, every night. It slowly drove her mad and she left the Bureau.

Thanks goodness this show has found its way back to its original brilliance. I favor season one because I grew up in southwest Louisiana, but this season will do nicely, thank you very much. Ali as the elderly Hays is remarkable, down to the way he walks out the door. The real find is Stephan Dorff, whom I last saw in a sleazy Aerosmith video featuring teenage girls (Alicia Silverstone and Liv Tyler). Dorff is perfect as the slightly shabby cop with the gravelly cigarette voice. He reminds me a little of Dennis Quaid. Loved his little moment with the bartender at the VFW; loved Hays' salute to the bartender as he walked out the door.

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On 1/22/2019 at 10:50 AM, Emily Thrace said:

Of course that doesn't quite seem to fit with the planned out nature of Will's death. It could be though that the killer wanted to kill both kids but Julie ran off and her father took it as an opportunity to take Julie without being blamed. It could also be the Julie's father has a screw loose and planned to kill Will and take Julie the whole time. I do feel like we are looking for a killer and a kidnapper not one villain. The killing of Will was methodical and planned out. The note sent by her kidnapper was erratic and odd.  The syntax of the note is down right strange, it almost reminds me of Eastern European ESL speakers.

I wonder if the killer always planned to take Julie, had been building up a trust with both kids by playing with them but when he made his move to take her Will tried to protect her.  The rocky ledge with his blood made me think maybe he’d been shoved up against it, possibly even being killed by accident.  Their dad telling Will to look out for Julie when they rode off would back this up.

Don’t know how that squares up with the posing and the dolls though.

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On 1/21/2019 at 7:44 PM, Diana Berry said:

I think Walmart daughter may not be alive in present.  I think they are just telling hays she's in LA.  It was just last week during the dinner table scene.  They all acted weird when her name came up.

I thought it was because he brought her up the second time and completely forgot he was just talking about her, but it's so early on, any avenue is possible. 

I haven't had any issues with sound. 

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On 1/21/2019 at 9:20 PM, Giant Misfit said:

I'm waiting for this show to solve the far greater mystery for me: Why did Amelia marry Wayne? Sure, he's super hot but he comes across in all their interactions as a dour sourpuss.  

As painful as it is, I appreciate the way the couple / marriage is being portrayed.  The level of dissatisfaction they seem to have with each other is interesting to me.  It's not so much that staying together is worse than divorce and not so little that staying together isn't hard work.   In my mind, I tend to think most marriages are a lot like theirs, and I appreciate it that the writer, etc. kept things somewhere in the middle.   It seems more real to me.  

On 1/22/2019 at 7:01 AM, Giant Misfit said:

True, true.

giphy.gif

Jack Black cracks me up.  

Edited by Jextella
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5 hours ago, Jextella said:

s painful as it is, I actually appreciate the way the couple / marriage is being portrayed. 

Oh, yeah. I have no problem with the way their marriage is portrayed. But in all of their dating interactions I've seen, I wasn't really reading any sort of emotional connection between the two. (Physical, yes.) 

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2 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

Oh, yeah. I have no problem with the way their marriage is portrayed. But in all of their dating interactions I've seen, I wasn't really reading any sort of emotional connection between the two. (Physical, yes.) 

Talking pre-marriage years....I agree.  I *think* the goal is to show them connecting over the fact that each experienced a time when they were a messed up in life.  While both are back on a reasonable path, neither is super happy nor living their full lives.  I'm not sure this connection has been shown to be deep enough to enter a marriage.  I don't even pick up on much physical chemistry between the two. 

They are two warm bodies who got each other at the time.  Again, maybe not so far from how many in the real world end up together.  

Edited by Jextella
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Ok...my 2 cents:
1) the writers are sprinkling clues and distractions all over the place.  My guess is that this approximates some real investigations.
2) The 3 time lines make this an interesting exercise for the viewer.  The challenge for the writers is to make it blend together to move the story along and not just make it a fun exercise for bored writers.
3) Episode 3 raises the issue of the events being related to a religion.  Gads...I really wish this was not so.  We get too many shows pointing fingers at religion.  That seems to be too easy...and annoying.
4) There seems to be some issue around the higher-ups closing down part of the investigation.  And removing Mr. Hays from the investigation.  Hmmm...the plot thickens!
5) And just what did Mr. Hays hide in the woods, as his now-deceased wife said.
 

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On 1/21/2019 at 12:30 PM, kicksave said:

I so related to that scene! My son did that once at a store not too long after Adam Walsh disappeared and I was frantic. He was in the next isle and slipped out of my sight for two seconds when I went to get something from a higher shelf. I found him immediately and had a similar response to Hays...it was probably one of the more frightening moments of my life.

 My sister did that when we were kids. Not only walked off, but we were swimming with friends, at a pool in the next town (we took a bus to get there) - she grew tired of waiting for us to finish swimming, when she'd had enough, so she just took the bus home. We were running around the building, then around shops on the same street, and the library. Finally took the bus home, and I ran up to mum, asking, "Is she here?!" That is still one of the scariest times of my life. I think I was eleven, and she was younger. 

 

Anyway, the show: the main actors are all excellent. I wonder what he left in the woods. I have a few ideas, and don't like one of them. 

I hope his wife didn't sleep with that cop, that they really just had dinner, as she took notes, knowing that flirting would get her information. Maybe I should watch the rest, before talking about it, although I like that we still have a full forum for this. 

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On 1/25/2019 at 6:59 AM, pasdetrois said:

The real find is Stephan Dorff, whom I last saw in a sleazy Aerosmith video featuring teenage girls (Alicia Silverstone and Liv Tyler). Dorff is perfect as the slightly shabby cop with the gravelly cigarette voice. He reminds me a little of Dennis Quaid. 

I am loving everyone in this show, they are all top notch. I sure am glad to see Stephen Dorff in this, I've liked him since I first was aware of him in Blade. He actually looks a whole lot like a friend of mine so that might be the reason I liked him so much but yeah, he's killing it in this show.

Eta: Oh shit, he was in Backbeat too. I remember liking him very much as Stuart Sutcliffe but I think I didn't know what his name was then. Or I'm just not remembering if I did. I'm old, y'all.

Edited by festivus

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