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The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

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On May 22, 2019 at 8:27 PM, Bruinsfan said:

And not the good General Ross, either. If you need Ross for ongoing appearances, why not back a truck of money up to Sam Elliot's house and make the character something other than a two-dimensional ranty antagonist?

WHY WAS ROSS EVEN AT THE FUNERAL?! It's the one thing from Endgame that is still pissing me off. Especially because it didn't lead to a much-deserved payoff of Professor Hulk telling him off. Is there any chance that would be a deleted scene?

You know who SHOULD have been there? Betty. Or Everett Ross from Black Panther. At least they're allies who actually care about the Avengers. WTF, Russos?

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2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

You know who SHOULD have been there? Betty. Or Everett Ross from Black Panther. At least they're allies who actually care about the Avengers. WTF, Russos?

There are certain realities that go into filmmaking.  I think it's highly unlikely that they could have somehow gotten every single actor to be available to come to Georgia on the same day to film a non-speaking cameo.

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Everett Ross worked with the Wakandans not the Avengers. While he may have known unofficially that Team  Cap and Bucky  Barnes had a refuge in Wakanda  as far as I know he had no direct connection to Tony Stark or Pepper Potts. And Betsy Ross was connected to Bruce Banner's rear view mirror 

Edited by Raja

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1 hour ago, starri said:

There are certain realities that go into filmmaking.  I think it's highly unlikely that they could have somehow gotten every single actor to be available to come to Georgia on the same day to film a non-speaking cameo.

18 minutes ago, Raja said:

Everett Ross worked with the Wakandans not the Avengers. While he may have known unofficially that Team  Cap and Bucky  Barnes had a refuge in Wakanda  as far as I know he had no direct connection to Tony Stark or Pepper Potts. And Betsy Ross was connected to Bruce Banner's rear view mirror 

Valid points, but neither of them justifies why Ross was at the funeral. It wasn't a state funeral, the attendees were friends and family and acquaintances of the Avengers. Ross was not a friend and he sure as shit was not family. He didn't even deserve to be an acquaintance. He was the guy who stalked Bruce and ruined his life because he wanted the power of the Hulk, and when they didn't work, he tried to use the Accords as a way of controlling the Avengers, and turned them into fugitives.

So again, HE HAD NO RIGHT TO BE THERE.

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2 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

he tried to use the Accords as a way of controlling the Avengers, and turned them into fugitives.

Not Tony. Remember Tony and Ross were on the same side in Civil War. And Tony was the one who recruited Ross into the whole game to begin with.

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26 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

Not Tony. Remember Tony and Ross were on the same side in Civil War. And Tony was the one who recruited Ross into the whole game to begin with.

They were on the same side up until the point Ross outright refused to look into the Zemo matter, which is when Tony stopped returning his calls. You're not wrong about Stark getting him involved in the first place, but that just brings up the issue of Team Cap being in Lagos without any forewarning or oversight. Given Ross' general demeanor, he might have seen that as a valid excuse to stick his nose in where it wouldn't have been invited otherwise, with or without Tony saying 'hey, you want to come lecture us about collateral damage?'

Edited by Cobalt Stargazer
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I saw Ross being there as makings amends for his past behavior. I'm betting the Snap taught him a hard lesson. Didn't the filmmakers confirm Betty was dusted? Maybe he's just there to pay respects to the team that got his daughter back and the good person who died in the process.

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When prominent politicians die, those from the opposing party show up and are welcomed at the funeral. It's a sign of respect.

And there's no doubt that Ross respected Tony, despite their sometimes opposing viewpoints. They were allies once, they worked together, Tony is an international hero, Ross is representing not only himself but also the government -- of course Ross should be there.

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15 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

But wait, there's more!

https://www.screengeek.net/2019/05/07/captain-marvel-brie-larson-replacement-petition/?fbclid=IwAR32eG6UR1DdAeZBLwn73gWYAgNqevmNvrfoIdPfff0F_r904mB0XduskHU

If I was a worse person than I actually am, it'd be hilarious. As it is, it's just pissing me off, because now the other trolls are getting into it.

Sad trolls will be sad trolls. They apparently think that not supporting this petition would undermine someone's "SJW" credentials.

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3 hours ago, anna0852 said:

I saw Ross being there as makings amends for his past behavior. I'm betting the Snap taught him a hard lesson. Didn't the filmmakers confirm Betty was dusted? Maybe he's just there to pay respects to the team that got his daughter back and the good person who died in the process.

We saw none of that in any of the movie. Too bad because I would have LOVED to see him snivel and grovel before the Avengers post-Snap.

So I'm just gonna echo @GHScorpiosRule with my own HA!

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2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Sad trolls will be sad trolls. They apparently think that not supporting this petition would undermine someone's "SJW" credentials.

What is SJW?

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Social Justice Warrior. A pejortive term for those who use social media to advocate against things like sexual assult, gender base pay gaps, lack of representation and other social issue.

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31 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

Social Justice Warrior. A pejortive term for those who use social media to advocate against things like sexual assult, gender base pay gaps, lack of representation and other social issue.

Of course by that logic Larson really should be replaced. Which, unless my memory is even shittier than I thought, is exactly what the non-SJWs want.

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I wish we could have gotten an actual third Captain America movie. Sure, Civil War is good but it really is Avengers 2.5. I'd love a movie featuring Team Cap set between Civil War and Infinity War. There wasn't much Steve in IW, and I feel like the ending of Endgame taints his character. I want more TWS/CW Steve. I feel shortchanged. 

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I don't know, all his individual movies were good (more than Iron Man and Thor can say!), and his role in the first, second, and fourth team movies was very satisfying to me. While I'd love to see more, I feel I can't complain, particularly in comparison to how Black Widow and Hawkeye were treated by the franchise.

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On 5/25/2019 at 8:48 AM, Bruinsfan said:

That was my first thought as well, I thought they were aiming at NYC. I was really surprised that Thanos' lackeys would redirect fire he'd ordered without direct permission from him.

Using my own experience in a field artillery fire direction center my first thought was if I was going to fire for effect on the commanders position then I am not expected to hear from him again. Then the ship's Captain saw the threat of Captain Marvel and did his best to protect his ship against her

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17 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

I wish we could have gotten an actual third Captain America movie. Sure, Civil War is good but it really is Avengers 2.5. I'd love a movie featuring Team Cap set between Civil War and Infinity War. There wasn't much Steve in IW, and I feel like the ending of Endgame taints his character. I want more TWS/CW Steve. I feel shortchanged. 

My main disappointment with Civil War was that it was overcrowded. Too many characters, too much focus on Tony, too much Black Panther. Simply not enough of the characters I consider central to the Captain America movies - Cap, Nat, Sam and Bucky. And as someone who was really invested in Bucky getting some quality characterization, I left the cinema feeling very disgruntled.

In hindsight, Civil War would have been a better fit for Avengers 2, instead of Ultron (not least, because Age of Ultron is bad). They could have introduced Vision and Wanda without Ultron's involvement (they could even have used them in Iron Man 3, instead of the Extremis thing that really played no further role in the MCU). The rest of the plot could have played out in similar fashion, with Bucky's involvement as the macguffin, and the eventual falling out at the end.

Then Cap 3 could have been about Cap's team, trying to do good while in hiding, similar to the New Avengers storyline that took place after Civil War in the comics (but with less dead Steve). You've got the core characters of Cap, Nat and Sam, with Wanda and Clint in smaller roles. And they could have built on the fugitives thing by having a conflicted Rhodey leading a taskforce dedicated to finding and capturing them.

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45 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

rs 2, instead of Ultron (not least, because Age of Ultron is bad). They could have introduced Vision and Wanda without Ultron's involvement (they could even have used them in Iron Man 3, instead of the Extremis thing that really played no further role in the MCU). The rest of the plot could have played out in similar fashion, with Bucky's involvement as the macguffin, and the eventual falling out at the end.

Well Extremis, Hydra improved into Centipede, was able to kick start Agents of SHIELD as their only source for superpowers with the Deathloks before the Inhumans focus post Winter Soldier, back when the show truly was connected. And Centipede was returned to in the natural series finale before the season 6 and 7 renewal order came down

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2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

My main disappointment with Civil War was that it was overcrowded. Too many characters, too much focus on Tony, too much Black Panther. Simply not enough of the characters I consider central to the Captain America movies - Cap, Nat, Sam and Bucky. And as someone who was really invested in Bucky getting some quality characterization, I left the cinema feeling very disgruntled.

I would point out that Civil War ends with Steve turning out to be a liar and a hypocrite for Bucky's sake, only to have Barnes fridged (literally) once he'd served his purpose, which was to give Cap something to be sad about. I think the darker Steve we see in Infinity War would have been interesting to expand on. Whether we agree with his reasoning or not, he'd betrayed those squeaky-clean ideals he was always espousing in the previous films, and that's not even getting into what his plans might have been if someone like Zemo showed up again to bring out the Winter Soldier. One of the smaller satisfying moments in Endgame was Tony all but spitting in Steve's face when the subject of reversing the Snap was first broached, but because the movies have been so obsessed with making Rogers the good guy no matter what, we don't get to see the full measure of how it affected him to be straight out called a liar and know that it's not wrong.

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On 5/27/2019 at 4:52 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

One of the smaller satisfying moments in Endgame was Tony all but spitting in Steve's face when the subject of reversing the Snap was first broached

I loathed that scene (and the scene with Tony ranting in Avengers HQ after returning from space) because Tony Stark is the very last person in the world who should be self righteous about anything.

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13 hours ago, Dee said:

I loathed that scene (and the scene with Tony ranting in Avengers HQ after returning from space) because Tony Stark is the very last person in the world who should be self righteous about anything.

Agreed but I've found Steve to be very judgmental and has made some poor decisions so I think he did deserve that.

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On a personal level, perhaps. As for the greater good issues that Stark was actually ranting about rather than his own hurt fee-fees, he needs to look in the mirror to correctly assess blame. That suit of armor around the world idea of his? Resulted in Ultron and humanity nearly being wiped out—gee, wonder why no one was too keen on the concept afterwards. Splitting up the Avengers? At least as much his fault as Steve's, and over rules he hypocritically violated as soon as they became personally inconvenient. Not being united for the fight against Thanos? Steve gave him a means of contact when help was needed (which he opted not to use) and showed up as soon as Bruce did call.

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Just rewatched 'Captain Marvel'. If she is supposed to be, as per Feige, the new face of the MCU, then she is going to need much better writers and directors. 

The movie lacked invention. The Kree scenes were dull.  their world and culture thinly imagined.  

The Skrulls were banal.  No sense of paranoid menace in the their ability to shape-shift.

Even Carol's relationships with Maria and Monica lacked depth. Carol was presumed dead for 5 years, she re-appears, and the Rambeaus are like, "Cool".

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I would take this with a ginormous grain of salt, but this is a supposed list of Phase 4 plans.  I'm spoiler tagging because the thumbnail has alleged titles.

Spoiler
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1 hour ago, starri said:

I would take this with a ginormous grain of salt, but this is a supposed list of Phase 4 plans.  I'm spoiler tagging because the thumbnail has alleged titles.

Better make that a salt mine. 

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56 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Better make that a salt mine. 

Salt mine indeed but some of those titles make me laugh SO HARD. Ant-Man vs The Masters of Evil makes it sound like the worlds of Ant-Man and He-Man collided. But maybe that's the side effect of new universes and whatever Wasp had to do to Escape the Microverse in her alleged movie.

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2 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Ant-Man vs The Masters of Evil makes it sound like the worlds of Ant-Man and He-Man collided.

Hahaha yeah that’s what I was thinking too.  That’s where I went, yeah, no, this isn’t for real. 🤣😂

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I wonder if these 'leaks' are a way of determining interest. If the internet likes some in particular, they'd get the green light. If not, it was just a rumour. In that case, I take a pro-Captain Marvel and the Valkyries stance, but anything Ant-Man related is a matter of waiting for the trailer.

I gather that in the comics, Wakanda has recently established a space empire. If that's what Black Panther Secret Empire is about, I'm happy to buy an advance ticket right now.

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Marvel Is Reportedly Looking to Cast WALKING DEAD Star David Morrissey in a Phase 4 Film

Quote

As you know, Marvel Studios is in the process of planning out and developing their fourth phase of films. Marvel has yet to officially announce that line-up, but we do know some of the films that will be included such as The Eternals, Black Widow, Doctor Strange 2, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3, Shang-Chi, and maybe Black Panther 2. Marvel is supposed to reveal their phase 4 line-up at Comic-Con this year.

It looks like one of these many film might end up starring Walking Dead alum David Morrissey, who played The Governor. According to Marvel insider Roger Wardell, the studio is considering him for multiple roles.

Apparently Kevin Feige is a fan of the British actor, and there’s a fan theory going around right now that he could make a good Norman Osborn, a.k.a. Green Goblin, which I could totally get behind, but it’s way too early to tell what Marvel is planning for him.

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2 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Salt mine indeed but some of those titles make me laugh SO HARD. Ant-Man vs The Masters of Evil makes it sound like the worlds of Ant-Man and He-Man collided. But maybe that's the side effect of new universes and whatever Wasp had to do to Escape the Microverse in her alleged movie.

My first thought was an Ant Man, Sam Raimi/Bruce Campbell/Ash Williams Evil Dead team up.

I would pay money for that.

Edited by xaxat
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On 5/27/2019 at 1:57 PM, Danny Franks said:

In hindsight, Civil War would have been a better fit for Avengers 2, instead of Ultron (not least, because Age of Ultron is bad). They could have introduced Vision and Wanda without Ultron's involvement (they could even have used them in Iron Man 3, instead of the Extremis thing that really played no further role in the MCU). The rest of the plot could have played out in similar fashion, with Bucky's involvement as the macguffin, and the eventual falling out at the end.

I think I might have liked  that. It would have required moving a bunch of pieces around but I think it would have worked. The biggest thing it would have achieved is it would have saved Ultron. I mean Ultron is probably my favorite Avengers villain and they turned him into a 1 movie jobber bad guy. Loki got to be in multiple movies, Thanos was in multiple, even the Red Skull came back and fucking Zemo is still alive. But Ultron seems gone for good like he was Whiplash or something.

Edited by Kel Varnsen
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14 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

On a personal level, perhaps. As for the greater good issues that Stark was actually ranting about rather than his own hurt fee-fees, he needs to look in the mirror to correctly assess blame. That suit of armor around the world idea of his? Resulted in Ultron and humanity nearly being wiped out—gee, wonder why no one was too keen on the concept afterwards. Splitting up the Avengers? At least as much his fault as Steve's, and over rules he hypocritically violated as soon as they became personally inconvenient. Not being united for the fight against Thanos? Steve gave him a means of contact when help was needed (which he opted not to use) and showed up as soon as Bruce did call.

The “suit of armor around the world” thing is also a place where Tony is deliberately disingenuous. When he’s trying to justify why he created a murderbot without telling the team to the rest of the Avengers, when Ultron makes his escape from the after party, Tony makes it sound like he brought the idea up to them and they shot it down. Except that...never happened? Tony acts like he’s offered the Avengers a viable Earth defense system and they turned it down, only he totally never did (that we saw, at least). It’s just more Tony spinning the truth so he doesn’t have to admit he was wrong. And then as far as I remember, he drops the idea after the whole murderbot thing anyway.

On another note, I’ve always found Civil War a weak movie, but post-Infinity War/Endgame I think it’s even weaker because to my mind, the team being split up actually had no effect on the outcome of the whole fight with Thanos. Steve and Nat and Sam and Wanda seem to be roving about as a peacekeeping team at the start of Infinity War just like Civil War, so it’s not like being outlaws really measurably changed their status quo. You could have had Steve’s team just on the other side of the world when Thanos shows up and thus unable to help in New York, and Infinity War plays out exactly as it did. And then the feud plays absolutely no part in Endgame beyond Tony making some classic “projection of blame onto Steve” mean comments ‘cause he has the emotional maturity of a teenager, and they don’t affect the plot at all. So not only is Civil War kind of a dumb movie and a poor end to the Captain America trilogy, it doesn’t even have any big ripple effects even though it should have had huge effects. Talk about a total dud of a movie. I wonder what would have happened with Cap 3 had Marvel not felt obligated to keep up with Batman vs Superman.

Edited by stealinghome
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4 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I wonder what would have happened with Cap 3 had Marvel not felt obligated to keep up with Batman vs Superman.

And there was just NO NEED for Marvel to feel obligated to keep up with that horrific, crapfucktick piece of shit that was Batman v. Superman.

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5 hours ago, stealinghome said:

So not only is Civil War kind of a dumb movie and a poor end to the Captain America trilogy, it doesn’t even have any big ripple effects even though it should have had huge effects. Talk about a total dud of a movie. I wonder what would have happened with Cap 3 had Marvel not felt obligated to keep up with Batman vs Superman.

This is a very good point. We don't see anything of Cap and his crew being under the radar and fighting in secret (like they did in the New Avengers book, post-Civil War). We're told that's what they've been doing, but the only evidence is Cap's angsty beard and Nat's blonde hair.

And yes, Infinity War didn't require any of that division to set it up, because Cap, Nat and Sam still could have been in Scotland with Vision and Wanda, while Tony was in New York. They just went on some mission that he didn't.

Anyway, if Cap 3 hadn't been Civil War (and they didn't rejig things to have Civil War take place in Avengers 2), I would think the movie would have been about Steve trying to find Bucky, with Sam's help. And Natasha perhaps looking for him on her own, for reasons that could have been expanded on. Zemo could still have been the villain, but he could be Hydra/AIM associated, instead of Sokovian. Crossbones could have been more than a 'two minutes then he blows up' bad guy. They could have spent more time on Bucky and actually given him a personality so people cared about him independent of Steve.

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15 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And there was just NO NEED for Marvel to feel obligated to keep up with that horrific, crapfucktick piece of shit that was Batman v. Superman.

In their defence, they didn't know that BVS was going to be bad.

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2 minutes ago, Anduin said:

In their defence, they didn't know that BVS was going to be bad.

I can't believe that I, a plebian, was more discerning than Marvel, who had already proven they were Leagues better in their live action than DC. And I say this as someone who grew up partial a wee bit more to DC than Marvel. And I could see from that "sneak peek" at ComicCon, and the casting of AssFleck, that it was going to be HORRIBLE. And it was.

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Rumors -- and Scarlett Johansson's on-set hair color -- suggest that the Black Widow movie is set post-Civil War, pre-Infinity War.

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22 hours ago, clack said:

Rumors -- and Scarlett Johansson's on-set hair color -- suggest that the Black Widow movie is set post-Civil War, pre-Infinity War.

Wooooo!!!! I'll try not to get my hopes up for Bucky, Sam, and Cap cameos. (pleasepleaseplease Bucky though kthx)

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So it looks like they might have a similar idea to the various, hare-brained ones I've come up with - A present day movie interspersed with flashbacks that give us Natasha's backstory. Only, it won't be quite present day, because it's set in the pre-Snap past... potentially with flashbacks to the more distant past.

I'd love to see Bucky in it, and for their barely-even-hinted-at MCU history to be fleshed out, but I'm more likely to be disappointed in the choices made by the writer, so it might be better if they just don't include him.

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Yeah, my guess is along the same lines. The Avengers break up post-Civil War, something or someone from Natasha's past draws her back to Russia to investigate her origins...

I believe Bucky is in Wakanda at this point and Clint is under house arrest. Maybe the Black Widow is truly on her own for this movie?

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I'm so glad that among the many roles played by Sir Ben Kingsley mentioned here they included "Mandarin" in Iron Man 3! I don't care what anybody says I love how they handled the character and how Kingsley played him. It's at the 4:50 mark:

Edited by VCRTracking
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25 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I'm so glad that among the many roles played by Sir Ben Kingsley mentioned here they included "Mandarin" in Iron Man 3! I don't care what anybody says I love how they handled the character and how Kingsley played him. It's at the 4:50 mark:

I agree with the Mandarin love! It was a clever twist on expectations and a good way to handle a problematic Asian character.

They way they handled Ancient One can go die in a fire on the other hand.

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On 5/29/2019 at 7:15 PM, Anduin said:

I gather that in the comics, Wakanda has recently established a space empire. If that's what Black Panther Secret Empire is about, I'm happy to buy an advance ticket right now.

Secret Empire was a (charitably) divisive comic event from a few years ago where it's revealed that Cap has been brainwashed (this is a vast oversimplification, but the full thing would take a REALLY long time) into thinking he's secretly been a HYDRA double-agent his entire life.  This touches off a plot where HYDRA places America under a fascist dictatorship and lots of bad things happen, including the fake Steve ordering Las Vegas to be razed.  

While in a vacuum, the story was well-written, a lot of people HATED it.  The MCU has been able to take titles and elements from previous comics stories and spin them into interesting stories, I don't think they'd touch this one with a ten-foot pole.  

That said, Steve's whisper of or "Hail HYDRA" in Endgame is a reference.

cphlhydrapic.jpg

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I don't think the story was that well-written. Aside from the issue of willing ignorance/tone deafness to the optics of making Cap a secret Nazi, it piled contrivance upon contrivance to get the setting/circumstances the writer wanted.

One that I recall making me facepalm particularly hard was having a throwaway bit about the Scarlet Witch being possessed again by the elder god Chthon and then meekly acting as a Hydra lackey in group scenes with a bunch of two-bit villains, as opposed to immediately becoming an existential threat to humanity that would put everyone else's agendas and alliances on hold.

Edited by Bruinsfan
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8 hours ago, starri said:

Secret Empire was a (charitably) divisive comic event from a few years ago where it's revealed that Cap has been brainwashed (this is a vast oversimplification, but the full thing would take a REALLY long time) into thinking he's secretly been a HYDRA double-agent his entire life.  This touches off a plot where HYDRA places America under a fascist dictatorship and lots of bad things happen, including the fake Steve ordering Las Vegas to be razed.  

While in a vacuum, the story was well-written, a lot of people HATED it.  The MCU has been able to take titles and elements from previous comics stories and spin them into interesting stories, I don't think they'd touch this one with a ten-foot pole.  

That said, Steve's whisper of or "Hail HYDRA" in Endgame is a reference.

Yes, I remember now. It wasn't a good look. People complained about Cap 2 with Hydra infiltrating SHIELD at the start. Nowdays it feels a little too close to reality for comfort. Let's just take the name and apply it to Wakanda's secret space empire, huh?

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9 hours ago, starri said:

That said, Steve's whisper of or "Hail HYDRA" in Endgame is a reference.

cphlhydrapic.jpg

I didn’t get that at all. I thought Steve whispered “Hail Hydra” because he knew everyone in the elevator were Hydra agents from Civil War. And since this was the past, he said it so they wouldn’t be suspicious. It was one of the funniest scenes in the movie for me.

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1 minute ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I didn’t get that at all. I thought Steve whispered “Hail Hydra” because he knew everyone in the elevator were Hydra agents from Civil War. And since this was the past, he said it so they wouldn’t be suspicious. It was one of the funniest scenes in the movie for me.

That's the reason within the universe.  Doing it at all (including how the shot was framed, IIRC) was from this.  At least, that was my takeaway.

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12 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I'm so glad that among the many roles played by Sir Ben Kingsley mentioned here they included "Mandarin" in Iron Man 3! I don't care what anybody says I love how they handled the character and how Kingsley played him.

I loved it, too! I thought it was borderline genius, and I nearly got chased away with pitchforks by my fellow comic fans. Oh well. 

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