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The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

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Yes, I know that Jenkins was originally going to be Branagh's early replacement, but my point was that the switch to Taylor happened well before TDW went into actual production and shouldn't have had any effect on the movie's unevenness, unlike the situation with Edgar Wright who left Ant-Man much further into the project.

 

I think VCRTracking's response pretty much sums up what I see is most likely the reason the studio went with less Malekith and more Loki:

 

Eccleston is a good actor and I enjoy his work but I, too, found Malekith incredibly bland and uninteresting. It's not that Eccleston did a bad job in the portrayal, but the character himself lacked any solid motivation for his wrongdoing other than he wanted the world to be covered in darkness for the sake of it. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Marvel had the same impression once they realized the villain wasn't working and went with what they knew did work (Loki)--especially after The Avengers.

Oh I get your point, but what I'm trying to get across is that I do believe that sometimes those changes do affect the eventual production, even if said production is made with different filmmakers.  I think that sometimes, not always, that the behind the scenes drama does bleed into the eventual production. 

 

There is also the idea that each director brings their own style to certain movies.  For example, Natalie Portman was pissed when Patty was fired not because the movie was dead in the water but because she wanted to make Patty Jenkins's Thor 2.  Now that isn't to say that we know for sure that Patty's version would of been so much better but when a movie doesn't turn out so great it pushes the question of what the other filmmakers would of done with it.

 

Now with Ant-Man, it turned out pretty well, but if Ant-Man was a disaster the first thing people would of said was.  "This is what Marvel gets for getting rid of and trying to control Edgar Wright.".

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"It wasn't a question of doing everything differently, although they changed the ending; it was mostly a matter of doing everything wrong. They said the lines...mostly...but they said them all wrong. And they cast it wrong. And they designed it wrong. And they scored it wrong. They did everything wrong that they could possibly do. There's actually a fascinating lesson in filmmaking, because everything that they did reflects back to the script or looks like something from the script, and people assume that, if I hated it, then they’d changed the script...but it wasn’t so much that they’d changed the script; it’s that they just executed it in such a ghastly fashion as to render it almost unwatchable."

 

If that doesn't sound like over the top crazy complaining I don't know what does. The one that always stands out for me is the fact that he thinks they cast it wrong. It is an Alien movie with Sigourney Weaver, Brad Dourif, Winona Rider and Ron Pearlman? In what world is that bad casting for any movie? And again it goes back to being professional and keeping your mouth shut or bashing everyone else involved in the movie.

 

 

I don't think he meant Sigourney Weaver who is a mainstay as Ripley was wrong casting but besides Dourif, Rider and Pearlman there a dozen other people in the movie and in terms of saying the lines wrong, that's a slam primarily against the French director, who had never done an English language movie before and hasn't since. Having seen the movie I agree that they did a lot of things wrong including the design but think he is kind of overdramatic in some cases.  I don't believe anybody will blame a bad score on the screenwriter!

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The quote just makes it seem like he thinks his script was great and everyone else, down to the composer of the music was terrible. Which kind of ties into his comments on Age of Ultron. Sure the thing with Thor in the pool didn't make much sense, but at the same time, the article above which describes how the extended version of that scene would have worked didn't really sound very good either.

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The article it didn't test well in previews. Pretty much most sceenwriters thinks a screenplay of theirs was butchered in the translation and has complained about it publicly.

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I don't understand why CA: TWS is supposed to be the best Marvel movie. It has a great first act and a very good second act, but the third act is exactly the same old Marvel climax as in every other movie too and the face changing technology is such a plot device I can't take it seriously. If the movie had stayed true to the political thriller idea all the way, it would have been great, but as it is I'd say it's very good and then has a disappointing finale.

 

I do think they should let directors bring some sort of originality to their movies.  In my opinion the movies, Guardians excepted (the best of the phase 2 bunch, incidentally) just feel very alike now. The first bunch were still more distinctive. I mean, I get that they found what worked and how try to stick with that as much as possible, because it guarantees hits, but it also means none of the movies are really that innovative or bring anything new to the table. In the long run, I doubt people will be talking about any of the phase 2 movies.

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Guardians had the usual big action finale, too, so how is that different?

 

I rate CA:TWS above the others because it at least has two acts that are about ideas, which is more than one generally gets.

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I guess I'm not sure why a superhero action movie that stars Captain America gets clocked for its third act being... a superhero action movie. If I want to watch negotiations over peace or trade or whatever I'll watch Star Wars: Episode 1 or Star Trek VI.

 

Both of which, by the way, sucked.

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It didn't have to end in boring, but CA:TWS had spent the first two acts being a 70s-style conspiracy thriller and most of those end in a more quieter, but still impactful way.  You could have still had Cap fighting the Winter Soldier and the scenes with Black Widow and Robert Redford but the Helicarriers weren't necessary. I still don't understand how the plan was supposed to work. They fly up high in the air and just target whoever HYDRA thinks is a threat and shoot them?

 

If I want to watch negotiations over peace or trade or whatever I'll watch Star Wars: Episode 1 or Star Trek VI.

Both of which, by the way, suck.

First, the rule is the even numbered Treks are the good ones.

 

Second. BTW in TPM to quote Qui-Gon the "negotiations never took place".  And to quote Weird Al Yankovic: "And I thought me and Qui-Gon Jinn
Could talk the federation into
Maybe cutting them a little slack
But their response, it didn't thrill us
They locked the doors and tried to kill us

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I still don't understand how the plan was supposed to work. They fly up high in the air and just target whoever HYDRA thinks is a threat and shoot them?

That was pretty much it. Fly up in the air and it had some crazy long range, super accurate targeting system, so it could pretty much take out anyone and everyone that the computer determined was a threat, almost instantly. Although I am not sure how they expected it to deal with Bruce Banner. Especially after the story in The Avengers about how Bruce tried to kill himself.

Edited by Kel Varnsen

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Guardians had the usual big action finale, too, so how is that different?

They subverted that with the "dance off" though. It was simply more interesting. The big climax of CA: TWS was boring, drawn out and brought nothing new to the table, except that ridiculous deus ex machina face changing technology.

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Guardians of the Galaxy was a big space opera, all the way through to the end. Cap 2 for the first two acts was a paranoid conspiracy thriller. When it was that it was great. When it became an all action spectacle it seemed the filmmakers lost confidence in their approach.

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I feel that the standoff with Bucky and Cap more than made up for the "standard" big action set piece. There was some pathos there, we actually cared about the outcome of this fight between these two lifelong long-lost (sniff) friends. 

 

And it was just so much fun, the bit with Sam outrunning a collapsing building...that he was in, was incredibly stupid but ridiculously fun.

 

Sometimes I wonder what people want when they complain about the end of an action movie being big and loud. Do we want a wedding? A family gathering? A philosophical discussion? Action movies always end with some over the top big...ness. At least TWS but a spin on the building destruction porn that we've gotten from Transformers, Avengers, MoS, etc. It was just the SHIELD/Hydra base and a bunch of bad guys we wanted to see die anyway! Oh and the bit with the good and bad SHIELD agents turning on each other was pretty neat.

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Sometimes I wonder what people want when they complain about the end of an action movie being big and loud. Do we want a wedding? A family gathering? A philosophical discussion? Action movies always end with some over the top big...ness.

 

Agreed.  It's a superhero movie.  Should it not end with a big fight?  How should it end?  I'm just perplexed by this complaint.

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Hawkeye was also Goliath for awhile using Pym's technology. Wonder if we'd ever see that?

I think going with the Agent of SHIELD he is just a soldier with a bow and arrow ideal from Age Of Ultron they will stay away from that. However in The Avengers those blind shots he was taking suggest  that he might have a superpower beyond above average eyesight that is  unknown to himself

Agreed.  It's a superhero movie.  Should it not end with a big fight?  How should it end?  I'm just perplexed by this complaint.

Add me in we are taking about a guy in a red white and blue suit 

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I think going with the Agent of SHIELD he is just a soldier with a bow and arrow ideal from Age Of Ultron they will stay away from that. However in The Avengers those blind shots he was taking suggest  that he might have a superpower beyond above average eyesight that is  unknown to himself

If I remember the story from the comics the deal was that he was self-conscious about just being a regular person on the avengers surrounded by people with super powers. So he uses Hank Pyms technology to become Goliath. Could be something interesting to explore. Not sure there will be time for it in Cap 3, maybe in the Infinity War they could do something with it.

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I don't understand why CA: TWS is supposed to be the best Marvel movie. It has a great first act and a very good second act, but the third act is exactly the same old Marvel climax as in every other movie too and the face changing technology is such a plot device I can't take it seriously. If the movie had stayed true to the political thriller idea all the way, it would have been great, but as it is I'd say it's very good and then has a disappointing finale.

 

TWS is my favorite of the Marvel films, but I tend to start checking out in that last third. I like the Cap/Bucky fight and the Agent 13/Rumlow standoff, but everything else feels a bit superfluous. The face-changing tech made more sense in the original cut, but it comes out of nowhere in the theatrical version. I still kind of wish the female council member just happened to be the one badass who'd try to take down Pierce, with Natasha coming in after the fact.

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They subverted that with the "dance off" though.

 

I don't believe 30 seconds of goofiness can alter the nature of the 20 minutes of big action finale, but mileage varies.  And, as mentioned, CA:TWS ends not with Cap saving the world, but with Cap trying to save his friend through non-violence.  As a principle, and not just a diversion.

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Agreed.  It's a superhero movie.  Should it not end with a big fight?  How should it end?  I'm just perplexed by this complaint.

 

I'm not saying it shouldn't end with a big fight but I would have been happy with the confrontation with Bucky and the scene where Natasha and Pierce and Falcon fighting Lumlow. The destruction porn of the Helicarriers is what bothered me. I liked the climaxes of Iron Man 3 and Thor: The Dark World because there were other things going on  likeTony jumping in and out of his various suits or Thor and Malekith teleporting around London while fighting. They were fun.

 

I still kind of wish the female council member just happened to be the one badass who'd try to take down Pierce, with Natasha coming in after the fact.

 

 

Agreed, but it's mostly because I'm a fan of Jenny Agutter, ever since Logan's Run.

 

I don't believe 30 seconds of goofiness can alter the nature of the 20 minutes of big action finale, but mileage varies.  And, as mentioned, CA:TWS ends not with Cap saving the world, but with Cap trying to save his friend through non-violence.  As a principle, and not just a diversion.

Edited by VCRTracking

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If I remember the story from the comics the deal was that he was self-conscious about just being a regular person on the avengers surrounded by people with super powers. So he uses Hank Pyms technology to become Goliath. Could be something interesting to explore.

 

I would hope they would let Scott be able to go "giant-sized" before letting Barton...it's bad enough they pushed Pym aside somewhat to go w/ Scott, but to just jump to Barton using the Pym particles to go "giant-sized" would be just wrong.

 

I'm really thinking that we will see Scott go Giant-Man on us in Civil War at some point.  I think it would be funny to see Scott messing w/ the suit during the film and during the battle he hits the button but instead of shrinking he goes giant-sized.  It would break the mood if it happened during the middle of everyone fighting and everyone just stops to look at Scott now giant-sized.

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I think for the next two Avengers movies, they do need to not do another sequence of the Avengers in a circle fighting against a CGI horde. 

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I would add all the Avengers charging/leaping/flying together so they converge in a reeeeeally fake slow motion trailer shot to the Do Not Need list.

First, the rule is the even numbered Treks are the good ones.

Single digit even-numbered Treks are the good ones; Star Trek Nemesis sucked donkey balls. (And I'm not sold on either odd- or even-numbered movies being good in the reboot franchise.)

 

That was pretty much it. Fly up in the air and it had some crazy long range, super accurate targeting system, so it could pretty much take out anyone and everyone that the computer determined was a threat, almost instantly. Although I am not sure how they expected it to deal with Bruce Banner. Especially after the story in The Avengers about how Bruce tried to kill himself.

The Hulk has been knocked unconscious by a 6-mile fall and by a sucker punch from Iron Man's biggest, most powerful armor. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that HYDRA could have concentrated enough ordinance on him to be lethal; particularly if they weren't squeamish about the collateral damage of using tac nukes.

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I would think the Hydra threat target could totally have taken Banner out.  I think the reason why the self-inflicted bullet method didn't work was b/c the Hulk persona subconsciously knew what the Banner persona was going to do.  In this case a quick laser beam to Banner, he wouldn't have enough time to think about or know what was going to happen and I could see it taking him out.

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So is that concept art official? Because I'm a bit skeptical about the teams. Wasn't the Black Panther supposed to be considered neutral? I thought I had heard that from somewhere. Unless it was speculation. Natasha on Tony's team seems sketchy too.

So 5 vs 6? I'll bet The Scarlet Witch takes Cap's side. I wonder if that would sway Vision to change sides? Natasha could be one to flip sides too.

I do like Hawkeye's outfit though. I didn't care for his long-shirt(?) in AoU. he basically had two unnecessary flaps hanging off the side of him.

As for the CA:TWS discussion, It was a pretty solid movie and I can see why people would think it's the best. Personally I liked some of the other movies better, even though they probably had more flaws.

I know I like Iron Man better. Guardians of the Galaxy was fun. Thor's grown on me. The Winter Soldier is somewhere in the mix. I like Steve and Bucky enough, as well as Fury and Sam, but I am one of the few people who find Natasha uninteresting as well as the blonde carter niece(?). And I'm not used to watching thriller-like movies, so maybe I can't appreciate it as much.

Edited by HoodlumSheep

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At least TWS but a spin on the building destruction porn that we've gotten from Transformers, Avengers, MoS, etc. It was just the SHIELD/Hydra base and a bunch of bad guys we wanted to see die anyway! 

 

Why is it assumed that the only people who died on the helicarriers, and the resulting carnage of three huge pieces of metal falling all around the surrounding area was Hydra? Because no civilians were shown? Once the helicarriers were in the air, shooting them down ensured collateral damage over a fairly significant area - not just the base.  I mean, I don't hold it against Steve or Nick or Natasha or Sam or Maria that they were concerned with the immediate threat.  But it's no different than any other superhero movie where any civilian casualties aren't mentioned because it would detract from said heroism.  I like Steve, but he wasn't the least bit concerned about who else might be hurt or killed by shooting down the equivalent of three large buildings from several thousand feet.  He was too preoccupied with trying to get Bucky to remember their friendship. I mean, it was very touching and all, but yeah.  Standard superhero fare.      

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They subverted that with the "dance off" though. It was simply more interesting. The big climax of CA: TWS was boring, drawn out and brought nothing new to the table, except that ridiculous deus ex machina face changing technology.

This is where mileage varies, because I thought the dance off was some of the stupidest shit I have ever seen in a movie. Guardians is a deeply silly and stupid movie anyway, but that ridiculous dance-off took it to another level of dumb.

 

I find CA:TWS to be Marvel's best movie to date because the story manages to have both large (HYDRA takeover/SHIELD disintegration) and small (Bucky) stakes that are equally moving, Steve comes into his own as a grounded character with a lot of pathos in a way no other Marvel movie has managed to make its lead appealing, the Steve/Natasha team works surprisingly but incredibly well and ScarJo brings the best out in Chris Evans, the movie fleshes out the MCU's mythos very well, and the action sequences are the best Marvel has yet produced. The film just feels real and "quiet" in a way none of the other Marvel movies do, but that deeply appeals to me.

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The elevator fight is my favourite. It's rare to see something that tight used so well.

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The elevator scene and Fury's car chase scene are tied for my favorite of that movie. But what pushes the car chase scene to the top for me (and the highway scene too) is the music. I enjoyed the hell out of the music in TWS, too. 

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Well, Captain America: The Winter Soldier is probably my favourite Marvel movie too, but I still think the action in the final act is a bit mindnumbing. It just goes on and on, and while there are some very cool little moments in it (like Maria Hill wheeling back on her chair to shoot some guys, and most of the stuff with Falcon's wingsuit), I end up getting bored.

 

But the earlier action sequence, with the Winter Soldier's attack on Steve, Nat and Sam in their car? Fantastic. It keeps me gripped every time I watch it. And part of that is how much I love the character of the Winter Soldier, but part of it is the very human, grounded level of action. It's an armed raid, with no gigantic CG sequences and no sense of the human factor being diminished by the scale of events.

 

Honestly, with most action movies, I find the final act the least satisfying. Usually, the first two thirds of the movie build character and story in ways that I enjoy, then it gets thrown aside because the filmmakers are convinced they need a huge action set piece finale to send people home happy.

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The Hulk has been knocked unconscious by a 6-mile fall and by a sucker punch from Iron Man's biggest, most powerful armor. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that HYDRA could have concentrated enough ordinance on him to be lethal; particularly if they weren't squeamish about the collateral damage of using tac nukes.

In universe comic explanation is that Banner made the hulk go unconsious when those things happened. Banner can have an influence on the Hulk hence his destructive rampages aren't as destructive as they could have been. The Hulk can stomp his feet and cause the continents to shift if he wanted. Even nukes haven't killed the hulk. As for Banner even grenades didn't kill banner but caused a transformed Hulk that had huge mood swings. Not good. 

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The elevator fight is my favourite. It's rare to see something that tight used so well.

I tend to put TWS (my favorite Avengers movie) on as background noise whenever I see it on tv and I always stop what I'm doing to watch this scene.

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The fight scenes look as intense as they were in TWS.  Awesome.

 

Oh and I hope whoever leaked this isn't really named "John Lam" because watermarking the footage with his own name or Disney is going to destroy him!

Edited by VCRTracking

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Rewatching the highway fight scene in CA:TWS, it's still highly enjoyable and probably the best action sequence in all the MCU movies.

 

It won an award! And a couple other scenes too.

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Once the helicarriers were in the air, shooting them down ensured collateral damage over a fairly significant area - not just the base.

 

Natasha's testimony indicated that the carriers wound up in the river which acted like a moat for the SHIELD facility.  So the implication is that they didn't spread out from their initial launch locations, and no civilian areas were affected.

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I knew we would get a leak, even if it was a tiny one that looks like it was shot on a Super 8. Holy crap does that look intense. 

 

As far as movies, my three favorites are Guardians, Winter Soldier, or the original Iron Man. Although Iron Man 3 has grown on me a lot as time has passed. Plus The Avengers, original. Its honestly hard to choose. I have had issues with a few of the movies, and some were a little meh, but, to me, Marvel has yet to make a REALLY bad movie. The worst they get is "ok" (to be, Iron Man 2 is the most "ok"). After some of the DC movies of the past few years (I have an intense dislike of Man of Steel), I cant complain too much about Marvel movies.  

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I knew we would get a leak, even if it was a tiny one that looks like it was shot on a Super 8. Holy crap does that look intense. 

 

As far as movies, my three favorites are Guardians, Winter Soldier, or the original Iron Man. Although Iron Man 3 has grown on me a lot as time has passed. Plus The Avengers, original. Its honestly hard to choose. I have had issues with a few of the movies, and some were a little meh, but, to me, Marvel has yet to make a REALLY bad movie. The worst they get is "ok" (to be, Iron Man 2 is the most "ok"). After some of the DC movies of the past few years (I have an intense dislike of Man of Steel), I cant complain too much about Marvel movies.  

 

See to me, Iron Man 3 was the closest Marvel got to a bad movie.  I thought the humor was too self-indulgent and the Mandarin was done terribly.  What happened to the Ten Rings that were mentioned in the first Iron Man movie?

Edited by lion10

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Iron Man 3 was a lot better than Iron Man 2.  Iron Man 2...

 

-Has even less action than the first Iron Man if that was possible

 

-We have Tony saying he's privitized world peace but never see it.

 

-The villains are a complete joke.  Rourke's characters is defeated when he first engages Tony and Rourke then spends the rest of the movie mumbling in some warehouse before his second and final failed attack.

 

-While funny, Sam Rockwell's character is an absolute joke.  He's only there to make Tony look good in every way by comparison and in the end he couldn't even threaten Pepper Freakin Potts.

 

-Instead of doing Demon in a Bottle, we're stuck with a ridiculous Tony's dying storyline that's easily resolved.

 

-The film decided to live off of Tony's wacky antics and failed miserably.

 

-When Garry Shandling (who was funny in his role) is one of the highlights of a superhero movie, you know you've done something wrong.

 

-The film was rushed out and it showed.

Edited by benteen

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I really liked IM3. However, I hated Ant-Man. I didn't find the jokes funny. I can't even remember half the plot. Marvel did their best to make sure we didn't get another superheroine. Yeah, some of the effects were neat, but nothing mind-blowing. The bad guy. Did he even get a name?

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I loved Ant-Man. I thought it was a very entertaining movie. Not the best Marvel movie but an enjoyable movie going experience. DC movies are too dark and dreary for me. I like some light in my super hero movies. 

 

I'd put Ant-Man in the middle of the pack of favorite Marvel movies. 

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I thought Iron Man 2 was a disappointment after the first movie. The only great scenes was the suitcase armor bit and the Black Widow hallway fight. The problem is Tony already defeats Whiplash early so it doesn't mean much when he does it in the climax. I liked Iron Man 3 a lot more mainly because Tony actually gets beaten by who he thinks is "The Mandarin" so he has to work his way back up. I liked Ant-Man because it was nice to see a superhero origin again.

 

Thinking of  the planned Inhumans movie, I think since John Krasinski(The Office) was thought not to be right for Steve Rogers when he auditioned for it, he would make a great Black Bolt! He has proven he can say more with just a look to the camera than actual words!

Edited by VCRTracking

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The bad guy. Did he even get a name?

 

 

Darren Cross.  I did get a little amusement out of how close it was to Darren Criss.

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