Law & Order: Criminal Intent - General Discussion

[peacheslatour]

28 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah Rodgers was sometimes annoyed with Goren, but she respected him. Rodgers could get annoyed with any detective if they started poking around the body, which Goren loved to do (she also jumped Lupo for it once on the Mothership). 

I didn’t think Munch was constantly asking her out, I only recall him doing it once, in Entitled. I’m sure if Rodgers was that bothered by Munch she could’ve said something to Cragen and Munch would’ve knocked it off. Munch wasn’t the type to constantly push someone to go out with him, he was eccentric but he wasn’t a creep.

I'd love to watch Munch bounce his conspiracy theories off of Bobby.

[Xeliou66]

33 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I'd love to watch Munch bounce his conspiracy theories off of Bobby.

Oh yes Goren with Munch or Fin would’ve been awesome, it’s really too bad one didn’t make a cameo on the others show.

[wknt3]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I didn’t think Munch was constantly asking her out, I only recall him doing it once, in Entitled. I’m sure if Rodgers was that bothered by Munch she could’ve said something to Cragen and Munch would’ve knocked it off. Munch wasn’t the type to constantly push someone to go out with him, he was eccentric but he wasn’t a creep.

You very well could be correct. It seems like it was more than once, but that could just be because it was very memorable - it was a nice use of established continuity and characterization with Munch and Lennie having the same taste in women. And yes Rodgers could more than handle herself and did - if Munch ever seriously bothered her he never would have made it to retirement! The suggestion she was avoiding Munch was mostly a humorous way to explain what was surely a decision made for practical rather than story reasons. Just like my head canon that Logan started to microwave fish for lunch everyday which is why his partners kept leaving what was supposed to be one of the best assignments in NYPD...

[WendyCR72]

9 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I'd love to watch Munch bounce his conspiracy theories off of Bobby.

It would be the Epic Battle of the Quirkiness. Which one would end up looking actually...almost conventional?!

[peacheslatour]

12 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

It would be the Epic Battle of the Quirkiness. Which one would end up looking actually...almost conventional?!

Probably Munch. He tends to be a little pedestrian while Bobby is in the stratosphere.

[wknt3]

21 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

It would be the Epic Battle of the Quirkiness. Which one would end up looking actually...almost conventional?!

 

8 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Probably Munch. He tends to be a little pedestrian while Bobby is in the stratosphere.

 

I agree. Munch, while vocal, is considered a dilettante and is not taken seriously amongst the quirky community.

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, wknt3 said:

 

 

I agree. Munch, while vocal, is considered a dilettante and is not taken seriously amongst the quirky community.

I remember Munch's file on The Mothership. Poor guy, what a letdown for him. Still, since Bobby did work for the CID in the military, they must have thought - unlike the NYPD - that behind his own quirkiness, he had the mental stamina and stability for such a job!

[Hero]

When CI first aired, I watched the first episode and I couldn't stand VDO and how he played the character. I thought it was so over the top and the head-tilt thing he did annoyed me  

I was definitely in love with SVU more and compared Chris Meloni to VDO, I was in love with Chris Meloni and that definitely overshadowed CI. 

20 years later, I'm watching the reruns, and I'm in love with the Goren character lol His quirks, like the head- tilt and him getting physically close to people, makes his character so much more enjoyable. 

 

SVU made Elliott so angry, I stopped watching for a while. It's also too much Olivia and too much personal lives of the detectives. 

I'm on season 7 of CI and I'm kind of disappointed to see so much of the personal traumas of Goren. I really just want to watch the cases and Goren and Eames solve them. 

On a shallow note, Vincent is absolutely gorgeous 😍 His voice is so soft and sexy. I especially loved when he grew his hair out a little and he had salt and pepper curls. Even through is weight gain, I would still let that man do bad things to me. Lol

[peacheslatour]

8 hours ago, Hero said:

When CI first aired, I watched the first episode and I couldn't stand VDO and how he played the character. I thought it was so over the top and the head-tilt thing he did annoyed me  

I was definitely in love with SVU more and compared Chris Meloni to VDO, I was in love with Chris Meloni and that definitely overshadowed CI. 

20 years later, I'm watching the reruns, and I'm in love with the Goren character lol His quirks, like the head- tilt and him getting physically close to people, makes his character so much more enjoyable. 

 

SVU made Elliott so angry, I stopped watching for a while. It's also too much Olivia and too much personal lives of the detectives. 

I'm on season 7 of CI and I'm kind of disappointed to see so much of the personal traumas of Goren. I really just want to watch the cases and Goren and Eames solve them. 

On a shallow note, Vincent is absolutely gorgeous 😍 His voice is so soft and sexy. I especially loved when he grew his hair out a little and he had salt and pepper curls. Even through is weight gain, I would still let that man do bad things to me. Lol

Get in line!

[WendyCR72]

18 hours ago, Hero said:

When CI first aired, I watched the first episode and I couldn't stand VDO and how he played the character. I thought it was so over the top and the head-tilt thing he did annoyed me  

I was definitely in love with SVU more and compared Chris Meloni to VDO, I was in love with Chris Meloni and that definitely overshadowed CI. 

20 years later, I'm watching the reruns, and I'm in love with the Goren character lol His quirks, like the head- tilt and him getting physically close to people, makes his character so much more enjoyable. 

 

SVU made Elliott so angry, I stopped watching for a while. It's also too much Olivia and too much personal lives of the detectives. 

I'm on season 7 of CI and I'm kind of disappointed to see so much of the personal traumas of Goren. I really just want to watch the cases and Goren and Eames solve them. 

On a shallow note, Vincent is absolutely gorgeous 😍 His voice is so soft and sexy. I especially loved when he grew his hair out a little and he had salt and pepper curls. Even through is weight gain, I would still let that man do bad things to me. Lol

I have always loved the show - but I'm glad you came to like/appreciate it later on, as well as VDO/Bobby. As we discussed before, while some don't care for the personal side, I'm betting VDO had a blast playing it all out. (Although I don't like watching "Untethered" [the one where he goes undercover at Tates Prison] too much as the torture is pretty awful. But that also fleshed Goren out, it made me like Bobby even more because he was willing to risk his job for a nephew he had no idea existed.)

But I loved Goren's quirks and Eames' snark and loyalty. I'm glad the show ended up closing out as it had begun, with Goren/Eames (although I did like Mike Logan).

[peacheslatour]

Quote

 (Although I don't like watching "Untethered" 

I can't even watch it. 

[WendyCR72]

5 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I can't even watch it. 

I can make it up until Bobby gets drugged, then I'm done with that episode. In all seriousness, though, I still do not understand just why Eames and Ross did not arrest that warden, or whomever the hell that woman was at the end. She had all of the prisoner records, so I seriously doubt that she had no idea what was being done to the inmates.

And she seemed very reluctant to help Eames and Ross in rescuing Bobby...

[Xeliou66]

I have always preferred CI to SVU for the most part (the Mothership will always be my favorite, my favorite tv show ever) - SVU’s always had a bit too much soapy stuff, I hated that CI introduced that soapy shit in season 6 (6 is my least favorite season). Seasons 1-5  of CI are awesome. I’ve always loved Goren and Eames, and I think Deakins and Carver were a big part of the show as well and the show really lost something when they left. 

[WendyCR72]

I remember a post from VDO's Twitter last year where he said he would love to revisit Goren. Obviously, it never happened. But the way SVU has declined in quality almost makes me happy a Criminal Intent revisit didn't happen.

While it, too, had its ups and downs, at least the show ended on a high note (even if Eames' visits to SVU basically negated it! Which I ignore...), and I'd hate to see Goren/Eames ruined with the current lazy writing that is ruining SVU.

It just makes me roll my eyes again that, of the three successful incarnations, that SVU is the last L&O series standing. And the ridiculousness now seems to cast a pall on the franchise as a whole. Just my take there.

[Xeliou66]

18 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I remember a post from VDO's Twitter last year where he said he would love to revisit Goren. Obviously, it never happened. But the way SVU has declined in quality almost makes me happy a Criminal Intent revisit didn't happen.

While it, too, had its ups and downs, at least the show ended on a high note (even if Eames' visits to SVU basically negated it! Which I ignore...), and I'd hate to see Goren/Eames ruined with the current lazy writing that is ruining SVU.

It just makes me roll my eyes again that, of the three successful incarnations, that SVU is the last L&O series standing. And the ridiculousness now seems to cast a pall on the franchise as a whole. Just my take there.

Amen!! But with the news that it looks like they are reviving the Mothership for some more episodes, maybe we will see Goren again one day. Who knows. I’ll say the same thing about CI/Goren/Eames as I did about the Mothership - while it would be great to see beloved characters again, I fear the worst because of the shitshow that SVU has become. Current SVU is so poorly written and is just crapping all over the legacy of the franchise, that I don’t want the Mothership and CI ruined by it as well. I’m pissed at what SVU has done, and it’s a travesty that SVU got the record 21 seasons and not the Mothership.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Amen!! But with the news that it looks like they are reviving the Mothership for some more episodes, maybe we will see Goren again one day. Who knows. I’ll say the same thing about CI/Goren/Eames as I did about the Mothership - while it would be great to see beloved characters again, I fear the worst because of the shitshow that SVU has become. Current SVU is so poorly written and is just crapping all over the legacy of the franchise, that I don’t want the Mothership and CI ruined by it as well. I’m pissed at what SVU has done, and it’s a travesty that SVU got the record 21 seasons and not the Mothership.

If not a series, movies, or whatnot, I could settle for a Goren and Eames cameo on the revived L&O (Note: NOT SVU, thanks very much!). Since the show basically ignored "Loyalty" for S10, I'd say just ignore the shit about Goren having moved on that Eames said on SVU and just handle those logistics that way.

Maybe some issue requires some eyes from Major Case...

Not that it will happen. But it's nice to dream.

[Xeliou66]

11 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

If not a series, movies, or whatnot, I could settle for a Goren and Eames cameo on the revived L&O (Note: NOT SVU, thanks very much!). Since the show basically ignored "Loyalty" for S10, I'd say just ignore the shit about Goren having moved on that Eames said on SVU and just handle those logistics that way.

Maybe some issue requires some eyes from Major Case...

Not that it will happen. But it's nice to dream.

Yeah I would like to see something where maybe Goren comes on board as a consultant to a case Eames is working on and the two work together to solve it, it would make for a good CI movie. But yeah I don’t want Goren/Eames anywhere near Warren Leight!!

[WendyCR72]

On 9/28/2021 at 11:13 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I would like to see something where maybe Goren comes on board as a consultant to a case Eames is working on and the two work together to solve it, it would make for a good CI movie. But yeah I don’t want Goren/Eames anywhere near Warren Leight!!

Hmm. Good scenario. It would be great to see them, and/or other characters. I'd like to see Deakins or Hannah and Carver again (although I could see Carver going the Paul Robinette route and being a defense attorney [without warping him as TPTB did Robinette!] or as a judge by now).

Or maybe make the case connected to a past case seen on the show...

[peacheslatour]

On 9/28/2021 at 8:13 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I would like to see something where maybe Goren comes on board as a consultant to a case Eames is working on and the two work together to solve it, it would make for a good CI movie. But yeah I don’t want Goren/Eames anywhere near Warren Leight!!

I haven't watched any of the second season of The Equalizer but I wonder if he would goose up some of his patented Goren mojo helping Robin McCall by advising her on her cases. He could be Mycroft to her Sherlock.

[WendyCR72]

6 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I haven't watched any of the second season of The Equalizer but I wonder if he would goose up some of his patented Goren mojo helping Robin McCall by advising her on her cases. He could be Mycroft to her Sherlock.

I doubt that as I doubt they would be in the same TV universe since Chris Noth is not Mike Logan there, not to mention Bobby Goren seems too...dynamic...to play second fiddle. (And the second season premieres October 10th, so you missed nothing! 😎 )

[peacheslatour]

11 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I doubt that as I doubt they would be in the same TV universe since Chris Noth is not Mike Logan there, not to mention Bobby Goren seems too...dynamic...to play second fiddle. (And the second season premieres October 10th, so you missed nothing! 😎 )

What if Mike Logan was never really Mike Logan and he was really this other guy all along and Goren was the only one who knew it?

[WendyCR72]

12 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

What if Mike Logan was never really Mike Logan and he was really this other guy all along and Goren was the only one who knew it?

Way too sci-fi for me. In any case, as much as I'd love to see Goren and Eames saving NYC again one case at a time, I doubt it will happen. As I said in the Mothership's forum, though, I hope we don't see Eames and/or Goren on the revival of the Mothership unless Dick Wolf invests in some new writers. Because the current writing on his other shows is very hit or miss!

[peacheslatour]

13 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Way too sci-fi for me. In any case, as much as I'd love to see Goren and Eames saving NYC again one case at a time, I doubt it will happen. As I said in the Mothership's forum, though, I hope we don't see Eames and/or Goren on the revival of the Mothership unless Dick Wolf invests in some new writers. Because the current writing on his other shows is very hit or miss!

I don't think there's anything particularly sci fi about it. Assumed identities have been a staple of mystery stories since there have been mystery stories. Any Agatha Christie fan will tell you that.

[WendyCR72]

On 10/4/2021 at 2:13 PM, peacheslatour said:

I don't think there's anything particularly sci fi about it. Assumed identities have been a staple of mystery stories since there have been mystery stories. Any Agatha Christie fan will tell you that.

Yeah, but not in the more grounded Law & Order universe. So still a hard no from me. 😎

In any case, I doubt we'll see Goren again, anyway.

[WendyCR72]

So "Consumed" is on now on WE, and I just realized it was stated that the sleepwalking cop that was framed by his neighbor, Tommy, had a broken leg when being found in the subway.

Yet a few scenes later, he is in the hospital [awakening from sleepwalking again after talking to Eames] and appeared to be standing on said leg. (Although people were on each side of him to catch him when the doctor had Tommy wake up!)

All the times I watched that, I never realized. I want whatever he had if I ever break a bone! It's a medical marvel!

ETA: I see he is in a boot, but from break to boot in a snap of the fingers? I love TV.

[WendyCR72]

WE is showing "Silver Lining" now (with "Inert Dwarf" next...), and I still get a kick out of Bobby and Alex sort of gleeful that the guy that had stolen silver (not the perp; the guy with the dying father trying to get the appraisal!) had it stolen out from under HIM by the perp.

Their little grins reminded me of the scene in "No Exit" when Alex told the website dude to go do his little dance in hell now.

[WendyCR72]

Tonight's two-episode late-night block on WE seems perfect for this time of year (almost Halloween), as the episodes, from S4 (a dark season) are two of its creepiest: "Ex-Stasis", a.k.a. the organ donor that kills a victim when she decides to live her life as she wants instead of by his moral code, and "Shibboleth", with creepy Frank, the killer that binds women while in their underwear, and his weird son.

S7 was dark, but S4 had the creep factor notched higher.

[Xeliou66]

4 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Tonight's two-episode late-night block on WE seems perfect for this time of year (almost Halloween), as the episodes, from S4 (a dark season) are two of its creepiest: "Ex-Stasis", a.k.a. the organ donor that kills a victim when she decides to live her life as she wants instead of by his moral code, and "Shibboleth", with creepy Frank, the killer that binds women while in their underwear, and his weird son.

S7 was dark, but S4 had the creep factor notched higher.

Oh yes - as we’ve discussed before, season 4 was dark and creepy - great season though. Ex Statis was weird and had a unique plot, the killer was a wacko. Creepiest episodes of the season though are Want with cannibal Tagman, Death Roe with evil chef Tommy putting his son in law through the meat grinder, and In The Dark with the stone baby. Great episodes though.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Oh yes - as we’ve discussed before, season 4 was dark and creepy - great season though. Ex Statis was weird and had a unique plot, the killer was a wacko. Creepiest episodes of the season though are Want with cannibal Tagman, Death Roe with evil chef Tommy putting his son in law through the meat grinder, and In The Dark with the stone baby. Great episodes though.

Makes me wonder if TPTB had watched a ton of horror flicks and tried to fit in as many macabre scenarios that season as they could. "No Exit" was a real downer, too, with the suicide website and all, and "Beast" with the chloracne poisoning. But when "Beast" and "The Unblinking Eye" (with the actor that killed his actress "fiancé") actually seem like "normal" cases comparatively, you know it was one hell of a dark season.

[Xeliou66]

On 10/13/2021 at 2:04 AM, WendyCR72 said:

Makes me wonder if TPTB had watched a ton of horror flicks and tried to fit in as many macabre scenarios that season as they could. "No Exit" was a real downer, too, with the suicide website and all, and "Beast" with the chloracne poisoning. But when "Beast" and "The Unblinking Eye" (with the actor that killed his actress "fiancé") actually seem like "normal" cases comparatively, you know it was one hell of a dark season.

Magnificat was a real downer as well, and I think No Exit is the bleakest episode in CI history. And yes you are right, when episodes like Beast, The Unblinking Eye and even The Good Child (with the evil bio parents planning to kill the daughter for money) seem like “regular” cases, it was a dark season. But it really worked, I love most season 4 episodes, it was a shaky start as I didn’t like Semi-Detached because of Goren’s weird behavior and I will never understand him going so strongly to bat for Tagman in Want, and then I dislike Great Barrier because of Nicole (I really wish they had killer her off at the end) but after that season 4 was awesome. 

[WendyCR72]

18 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Magnificat was a real downer as well, and I think No Exit is the bleakest episode in CI history. And yes you are right, when episodes like Beast, The Unblinking Eye and even The Good Child (with the evil bio parents planning to kill the daughter for money) seem like “regular” cases, it was a dark season. But it really worked, I love most season 4 episodes, it was a shaky start as I didn’t like Semi-Detached because of Goren’s weird behavior and I will never understand him going so strongly to bat for Tagman in Want, and then I dislike Great Barrier because of Nicole (I really wish they had killer her off at the end) but after that season 4 was awesome. 

Looking at this altogether, I can easily understand just why VDO had his episode with exhaustion (thus bringing in Logan as a guest in "Stress Position", to set up alternating teams in S5!). Even being fiction, playing stuff like that in S4 week after week had to take its toll...

[WendyCR72]

If anyone is up during the dead of night like I am (work), WE will be showing both parts of "In The Wee Small Hours" beginning at 1:00 a.m. (10/19)   I mention it as these episodes seem to be the favorite of a few here!

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

If anyone is up during the dead of night like I am (work), WE will be showing both parts of "In The Wee Small Hours" beginning at 1:00 a.m. (10/19)   I mention it as these episodes seem to be the favorite of a few here!

I’m watching it right now. I think In The Wee Small Hours is my very favorite CI episode - so much to love about it - great case, lots of good detective work, good role for each character, even some good legal stuff with Carver, crossover appearance by Arthur Branch etc. And of course I loved the 4 detectives working together, particularly the Goren/Logan interactions, I really wish they had worked together more often. I think my favorite scenes from the episode are when Branch tears up Carver’s original arrest warrant and pulls out a new one with his signature on it, saying it’s “worth 2 points on election day”, I love Arthur’s colorful personality, and of course Goren baiting Judge Pervert into exploding and incriminating himself. Just a superb episode all around.

[WendyCR72]

18 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’m watching it right now. I think In The Wee Small Hours is my very favorite CI episode - so much to love about it - great case, lots of good detective work, good role for each character, even some good legal stuff with Carver, crossover appearance by Arthur Branch etc. And of course I loved the 4 detectives working together, particularly the Goren/Logan interactions, I really wish they had worked together more often. I think my favorite scenes from the episode are when Branch tears up Carver’s original arrest warrant and pulls out a new one with his signature on it, saying it’s “worth 2 points on election day”, I love Arthur’s colorful personality, and of course Goren baiting Judge Pervert into exploding and incriminating himself. Just a superb episode all around.

I like all of that. And I'm enough of a geek that I like the special opening credits for it, too. I also liked Goren, still seething over his mother, calm enough to confide in what happened to Eames and Eames going into action when she knew Bobby was on his way to confront Hot Tub Harry.

Also liked Logan's "Sorry to pull you out of your hot tub, Your Honor!" and Garrett's glare as he was being put in the police vehicle.

[peacheslatour]

19 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I like all of that. And I'm enough of a geek that I like the special opening credits for it, too. I also liked Goren, still seething over his mother, calm enough to confide in what happened to Eames and Eames going into action when she knew Bobby was on his way to confront Hot Tub Harry.

Also liked Logan's "Sorry to pull you out of your hot tub, Your Honor!" and Garrett's glare as he was being put in the police vehicle.

"Iago! Iago!" What a self inflated monster.

[Xeliou66]

22 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I like all of that. And I'm enough of a geek that I like the special opening credits for it, too. I also liked Goren, still seething over his mother, calm enough to confide in what happened to Eames and Eames going into action when she knew Bobby was on his way to confront Hot Tub Harry.

Also liked Logan's "Sorry to pull you out of your hot tub, Your Honor!" and Garrett's glare as he was being put in the police vehicle.

There is so much to like about that episode, it was just excellent overall. I also really like the scene where Logan and Goren bait Ethan into assaulting Logan so they could arrest him when searching his room, I loved all of the Goren/Logan interactions and it’s really a shame we didn’t get to see more of them together throughout the series. 

Nice continuity of bringing back Connie from Sound Bodies and using him to get Ethan to open up.

And the other Branch/Carver scene was great as well, where Branch offered to promote Carver to bureau chief if he wanted it and they discussed the media circus surrounding the case. It’s too bad this was Arthur’s only appearance on CI, as I’ve said, I wish there had been more crossovers - for the DA’s we only got to see Nora in the pilot and Arthur in this one, they were mentioned a few other times but it’s really too bad they didn’t appear more, anyway I liked the Branch/Carver scenes.

7 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

"Iago! Iago!" What a self inflated monster.

All of the Garrett’s were trash, as I’ve said before. They stand out as despicable scum. 

[peacheslatour]

Quote

Nice continuity of bringing back Connie from Sound Bodies and using him to get Ethan to open up.

OMG Sound Bodies was on Today and I remembered how they brought Connie back. What a nice touch that was. Icing on a very good cake.

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

There is so much to like about that episode, it was just excellent overall. I also really like the scene where Logan and Goren bait Ethan into assaulting Logan so they could arrest him when searching his room

I liked that, too, since Ethan was such an odious, entitled, smug little shit. I never bought his turn at the end, when he talked about Daddy Dearest being so awful. Ethan was a chip off the old block, not to mention his murdering mama.

Although I do wonder if the Logan/Goren tag team which resulted in Ethan trying to assault Logan could have been classified as entrapment. (Not a lawyer!) But I loved Ethan getting arrested, all the same.

And yeah, nice to see that other smug shit, Connie, back. Liked seeing Eames get to interact with him since she missed out last time.

I mentioned this before, but like Rip Torn in "Bedfellows" ("My Adlai!!!!!!) who appeared in Men In Black with VDO, Colm Meany also acted with VDO in the movie, Claire Dolan, in the '90s, so it was nice to see people VDO had worked with prior pop up.

[Xeliou66]

37 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I liked that, too, since Ethan was such an odious, entitled, smug little shit. I never bought his turn at the end, when he talked about Daddy Dearest being so awful. Ethan was a chip off the old block, not to mention his murdering mama.

Although I do wonder if the Logan/Goren tag team which resulted in Ethan trying to assault Logan could have been classified as entrapment. (Not a lawyer!) But I loved Ethan getting arrested, all the same.

And yeah, nice to see that other smug shit, Connie, back. Liked seeing Eames get to interact with him since she missed out last time.

I mentioned this before, but like Rip Torn in "Bedfellows" ("My Adlai!!!!!!) who appeared in Men In Black with VDO, Colm Meany also acted with VDO in the movie, Claire Dolan, in the '90s, so it was nice to see people VDO had worked with prior pop up.

I don’t think they could claim entrapment when Ethan tried to assault Logan, Ethan just lost his temper, there’s no rule preventing police from trying to provoke a suspect, he easily could’ve just not taken their bait, but he was an entitled douche who thought he could do whatever. And I didn’t really buy his turn at the end, he was rotten all around just like both of his parents. I would like to know what sentence the mom got for the murder and the judge got for the rape. All around it’s my favorite episode of CI I believe, and having both pairs of detectives working together on a big case was nice and it was really nice to go inside the courtroom and have Branch appear.

I know people have mixed opinions on season 5 but I like the vast majority of season 5 episodes, I was disappointed with Deakins exit but season 5 was the last season that felt like classic CI. 

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I don’t think they could claim entrapment when Ethan tried to assault Logan, Ethan just lost his temper, there’s no rule preventing police from trying to provoke a suspect, he easily could’ve just not taken their bait, but he was an entitled douche who thought he could do whatever. And I didn’t really buy his turn at the end, he was rotten all around just like both of his parents. I would like to know what sentence the mom got for the murder and the judge got for the rape. All around it’s my favorite episode of CI I believe, and having both pairs of detectives working together on a big case was nice and it was really nice to go inside the courtroom and have Branch appear.

I know people have mixed opinions on season 5 but I like the vast majority of season 5 episodes, I was disappointed with Deakins exit but season 5 was the last season that felt like classic CI. 

I think Elise Garrett may be even worse than her scummy hubby, because she was telling Bethany's distraught mother how Ethan was not a killer, all the while knowing SHE killed Mrs. London's daughter.

And, as I said, she was pushing Ethan to spill about what happened that night when, again, she actually killed Bethany. Not to say Judge Garrett was at all sympathetic. He was gutter trash, too. I'd hope both got the proverbial book thrown at them.

But since they were well to do, I wonder if they would have gotten undeserved leniency.

[Xeliou66]

18 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I think Elise Garrett may be even worse than her scummy hubby, because she was telling Bethany's distraught mother how Ethan was not a killer, all the while knowing SHE killed Mrs. London's daughter.

And, as I said, she was pushing Ethan to spill about what happened that night when, again, she actually killed Bethany. Not to say Judge Garrett was at all sympathetic. He was gutter trash, too. I'd hope both got the proverbial book thrown at them.

But since they were well to do, I wonder if they would have gotten undeserved leniency.

I agree Elise Garrett may have been worse, she actually smothered Bethany to death. They were all lowlife garbage though, and I hope they got harsh sentences. One thing I would’ve liked to have known about on CI is what specifically the perps got charged with/sentenced to, the show often didn’t say that as it usually just ended with the perp being arrested. At least in this episode we got to see them go into court but I still would’ve liked to have known what the final sentences were for “Hot Tub Harry” and Elise Garrett.

[peacheslatour]

42 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I agree Elise Garrett may have been worse, she actually smothered Bethany to death. They were all lowlife garbage though, and I hope they got harsh sentences. One thing I would’ve liked to have known about on CI is what specifically the perps got charged with/sentenced to, the show often didn’t say that as it usually just ended with the perp being arrested. At least in this episode we got to see them go into court but I still would’ve liked to have known what the final sentences were for “Hot Tub Harry” and Elise Garrett.

Yep, that's the thing that made CI less satisfying than Mothership. But I get it. There's procedure and there's courtroom drama. Too bad they never found that balance.

[Xeliou66]

52 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Yep, that's the thing that made CI less satisfying than Mothership. But I get it. There's procedure and there's courtroom drama. Too bad they never found that balance.

Yes, it’s hard to match the Mothership, it was such an superbly executed show. CI was great as well, but the Mothership will always be my favorite for its balance of investigation/legal stuff, getting to see the case from beginning to end, and the lack of personal drama. But CI was great as well and one thing about CI is that the perps were almost always punished, very rarely did they escape justice, whereas on L&O and to a lesser extent SVU they occasionally did get off. 

[WendyCR72]

I liked CI because it was always so twisty-turny, which makes sense since Dick Wolf and Rene Balcer modeled Goren and Eames on Sherlock and Watson and going toe-to-toe with the criminals.

But, yeah, Carver never had much to do, really. Except be a good foil to Goren on occasion. Still wish he could have shown up in S10, maybe as a judge or defense lawyer that needed Goren and Eames' help, be it on a case or maybe Carver's family could have been in danger somehow...

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I liked CI because it was always so twisty-turny, which makes sense since Dick Wolf and Rene Balcer modeled Goren and Eames on Sherlock and Watson and going toe-to-toe with the criminals.

But, yeah, Carver never had much to do, really. Except be a good foil to Goren on occasion. Still wish he could have shown up in S10, maybe as a judge or defense lawyer that needed Goren and Eames' help, be it on a case or maybe Carver's family could have been in danger somehow...

Yeah Carver was a great character that was criminally underused. Deakins as well for that matter. CI lost a lot when they left. At least Deakins got an exit, albeit a mostly unsatisfactory one. I like to imagine Carver went on to become a judge, while Deakins got to enjoy retirement with his family somewhere. I do wish one or both of them had made a cameo in season 10, they could’ve come up with a reason for them to appear, it would’ve been really nice to see them again. 

[peacheslatour]

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But CI was great as well and one thing about CI is that the perps were almost always punished, very rarely did they escape justice, whereas on L&O and to a lesser extent SVU they occasionally did get off.

With one notable exception. Paul Whitlock in Magnificat. MFer should have been drawn and quartered.

[Xeliou66]

4 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

With one notable exception. Paul Whitlock in Magnificat. MFer should have been drawn and quartered.

Yes as I’ve said before, that was one of the only times I was really disappointed in Carver, he should’ve had that asshole charged and let a jury decide whether he was culpable. It was pretty clear to me he was guilty of criminally negligent homicide or maybe even manslaughter. 

[WendyCR72]

7 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yes as I’ve said before, that was one of the only times I was really disappointed in Carver, he should’ve had that asshole charged and let a jury decide whether he was culpable. It was pretty clear to me he was guilty of criminally negligent homicide or maybe even manslaughter. 

I never understood Carver's reasoning where Paul Whitlock was concerned. He saw that heater, knew his wife had tampered with it and why, which means he knew she was unstable.

So the fact that she did go on to kill the majority of their kids and tried to kill herself and their surviving child should have made him complicit/culpable almost as much as Doreen, IMO.

[Xeliou66]

3 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I never understood Carver's reasoning where Paul Whitlock was concerned. He saw that heater, knew his wife had tampered with it and why, which means he knew she was unstable.

So the fact that she did go on to kill the majority of their kids and tried to kill herself and their surviving child should have made him complicit/culpable almost as much as Doreen, IMO.

Exactly. I thought it was cowardly of Carver not to prosecute him - Whitlock knew his wife had tried to commit suicide and was a danger to her kids and herself, and yet he didn’t get her help or do anything. If he hadn’t been negligent, his children would’ve have died. And he didn’t seem to give a shit. I like Carver but this was the one time he really was on my bad side, I don’t think a prosecutor like Jack McCoy or Mike Cutter would’ve let Whitlock off.

And I hope he didn’t get custody of his oldest son, he was clearly an unfit parent. 

[peacheslatour]

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And I hope he didn’t get custody of his oldest son, he was clearly an unfit parent. 

 

It looked like Goren's friend, the child welfare advocate, was going to take care of that.