Law & Order: Criminal Intent - General Discussion

[WendyCR72]

My favorite S10 episode, "The Last Street In Manhattan" just started. I liked G/E's little exchange about Proust. And it still gets me how the actor playing wealthy Aston Skinner was sleazy Chilly from "Depths" back in S7.

[Xeliou66]

47 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

My favorite S10 episode, "The Last Street In Manhattan" just started. I liked G/E's little exchange about Proust. And it still gets me how the actor playing wealthy Aston Skinner was sleazy Chilly from "Depths" back in S7.

The Last Street in Manhattan was a strong episode, I like it a lot as well. But I like all 8 of the season 10 episodes, not sure if I have a favorite. 

[Dirtybubble]

On 6/22/2021 at 5:59 PM, WendyCR72 said:

And "Renewal", where Logan instantly falls for his doomed neighbor, Holly, and goes all ragey when she dies was one mess of an episode, with that and the whole thing with the cadet going on at once.

Yeah Renewal is a tough one to watch.  Talk about one bad event after another!  I believe this was the setup, a turn in a series of events, to him leaving at the end of the season.   Hey I'm all for seeing Logan, or any of the detectives for that matter, find a little romance in their lives.  I know a lot of people found it soap-y but IDK I kinda liked seeing a different more human side to these people.  But seeing that final scene with Logan in the bar is just wow--heart wrenching!!  😢

[WendyCR72]

I just wish the case that did send Logan out of the franchise yet again was a real unresolved case - or a real case of theirs needing a second look - instead of what there was.

Although I did like the Lennie mentions.

Or maybe Logan could have just decided on his own without the sadness and misery that he had done all he could as a cop and wanted to see what else was out there.

Seeing him leave under a dark cloud twice was sort of disheartening. I could buy Logan "moving on" more than I ever could Goren.

On another note, I see WE is adding another drama to the roster based on a commercial during the CI marathon I just saw. I guess NCIS is premiering on WE, appropriately enough, on July 4th. I don't watch it, but if anyone here does, there you go.

[Xeliou66]

8 hours ago, Dirtybubble said:

Yeah Renewal is a tough one to watch.  Talk about one bad event after another!  I believe this was the setup, a turn in a series of events, to him leaving at the end of the season.   Hey I'm all for seeing Logan, or any of the detectives for that matter, find a little romance in their lives.  I know a lot of people found it soap-y but IDK I kinda liked seeing a different more human side to these people.  But seeing that final scene with Logan in the bar is just wow--heart wrenching!!  😢

Only thing I found heart wrenching and emotional about Renewal was Logan talking about Lennie and how he still sees Lennie alive in his dreams, as someone who loved both Lennie and Logan that was a heart wrenching moment, and I’m really glad that Logan talked about Lennie and how Lennie’s death affected him. Other than that though, I found the episode to be overly soapy and melodramatic, though I did like Eames coming in to assist with the case.

And I don’t think Logan’s departure had anything to do with the events of Renewal, I think he just kind of got fed up with the system and decided to do something else with his life, I didn’t find his ending on CI as him leaving under a dark cloud. 

[WendyCR72]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Only thing I found heart wrenching and emotional about Renewal was Logan talking about Lennie and how he still sees Lennie alive in his dreams, as someone who loved both Lennie and Logan that was a heart wrenching moment, and I’m really glad that Logan talked about Lennie and how Lennie’s death affected him. Other than that though, I found the episode to be overly soapy and melodramatic, though I did like Eames coming in to assist with the case.

And I don’t think Logan’s departure had anything to do with the events of Renewal, I think he just kind of got fed up with the system and decided to do something else with his life, I didn’t find his ending on CI as him leaving under a dark cloud. 

I guess I just felt Logan's exit was on the bitter side, especially in dealing with the power-hungry Queens DA one time too many. Both exits just seemed so downbeat.

So, yeah, I would have liked for Logan to just decide that he was ready to try something else and leave somewhat content if not truly happy.

But then, as I said before, at least Logan got an exit. Wheeler just left to have her baby and never returned. (As said before, the 2008 Writers' Strike probably had a lot to do with that, but still!) But Nichols/Stevens/Callas never got an exit, either. Neither did Carver (which still bugs me.) I'm sensing a theme. LOL!

Then again, Goren/Eames did get an exit in S9 that was so terrible that they came back for a redo. So maybe exits are overrated.

[Xeliou66]

25 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I guess I just felt Logan's exit was on the bitter side, especially in dealing with the power-hungry Queens DA one time too many. Both exits just seemed so downbeat.

So, yeah, I would have liked for Logan to just decide that he was ready to try something else and leave somewhat content if not truly happy.

But then, as I said before, at least Logan got an exit. Wheeler just left to have her baby and never returned. (As said before, the 2008 Writers' Strike probably had a lot to do with that, but still!) But Nichols/Stevens/Callas never got an exit, either. Neither did Carver (which still bugs me.) I'm sensing a theme. LOL!

Then again, Goren/Eames did get an exit in S9 that was so terrible that they came back for a redo. So maybe exits are overrated.

I guess I just see it differently regarding Logan’s CI exit, I didn’t feel it was downbeat, I felt that Logan had just had enough of police work and decided to do something else.

I’ve always thought that Nichols and Stevens didn’t leave the squad, we just didn’t see them in season 10. Don’t know why Hannah replaced Callas as Captain though. And yeah Carver not getting an exit really pissed me off.

But yeah Goren and Eames had an awful exit in season 9, I have no idea who thought that would be a good ending for them. And Deakins exit wasn’t very good either IMO, I found it unsatisfying that Deakins retired instead of fighting Adair. So yeah CI didn’t do a great job with exits. 

[turbogirlnyc]

I've paid for Peacock for two months now to get my fill of CI. I got rid of cable in 2007 (I've been streaming ever since) and although I bought season 1 on Prime video, my favorite episodes are in seasons 3-5. I've also been reading through the CI forums. I can't get CI's forums on TWOP with the Way Back Machine for whatever reason. Love to read others comments since I'm the only person I know who loved CI IRL. Early Goren is a masterpiece thanks to VDO. Love him and absolutely abhorred the personal crap they brought into the show in later seasons. That's what made CI a good show. It never got personal, unlike SVU (ugh that show is awful and how it's still going is beyond me). People have shite taste, I guess? Lol. 

I think Nicole Wallace became overused but I also think Olivia D'Abo did a great job with the character. I personally saw a little bit of a crush or an attraction between her and Goren (not a popular opinion, I know). I first saw CI episodes in my later teens and I thought that "attraction" was apparent. And I whole heartedly agree with others that having Declan kill her was a terrible decision. So anticlimactic. 

Surprised little is said of Logan's first partner here. I'm drawing a blank on the name of the character and actress at the moment. I wasn't a fan of Logan being brought in because I loved Goren so much. Now I've watched many of Logan's episodes this time around and he grew on me a bit. But yeah, I hated the "bad cop" crap they constantly brought up in his episodes. Like that's so rare in NYC? Ha! It was a bit much. 

I am not and never have been a Goren and Eames shipper. I love them as a working team but can't see them as lovers or a couple for some reason. 

I can't decide which episode is my f favorite. I love Suite Sorrow, Tuxedo Hill, In The Wee Small Hours, Death Roe, No Exit, The Gift, But Not Forgotten & Bedfellows (My Adelaaii!!) I read on the old forum where someone said the actress that played Charlene was on other episodes? I never saw her on another episode. She was not in Slither.  She was very good as Charlene. I envy her physique so I looked for her on rewatch and no go. I saw Lena's actress at least 3 times. And the actress in Suite Sorrow played the killer in that episode and in the astronaut episode. 

Edited to add that I LOVE Deakins. Now that is a great looking older man! I also like Carver a lot too.  CBV knocked that role out of the park.

Edited June 26, 2021 by turbogirlnyc

[turbogirlnyc]

On 2/20/2020 at 1:13 AM, WendyCR72 said:

Rodgers definitely had her roots in the Mothership, no denying it. But as I have said before, she was practically another semi-regular part of the CI cast, at least in later seasons. Of course, much had to do with her....whatever...with Ross, but Rodgers still had good interactions with Goren [and got involved in his family drama], Eames, Logan, and such.

As an aside, I wish Leslie Hendrix kept her red hair. [Not even sure if that was her natural color, but she looked good as a redhead - and had the temperament for it!]

I agree that red is best on her. I do like that she changes it up though. And she can pull off every color! I envy anyone who can do that. 

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, turbogirlnyc said:

I've paid for Peacock for two months now to get my fill of CI. I got rid of cable in 2007 (I've been streaming ever since) and although I bought season 1 on Prime video, my favorite episodes are in seasons 3-5. I've also been reading through the CI forums. I can't get CI's forums on TWOP with the Way Back Machine for whatever reason. Love to read others comments since I'm the only person I know who loved CI IRL. Early Goren is a masterpiece thanks to VDO. Love him and absolutely abhorred the personal crap they brought into the show in later seasons. That's what made CI a good show. It never got personal, unlike SVU (ugh that show is awful and how it's still going is beyond me). People have shite taste, I guess? Lol. 

I think Nicole Wallace became overused but I also think Olivia D'Abo did a great job with the character. I personally saw a little bit of a crush or an attraction between her and Goren (not a popular opinion, I know). I first saw CI episodes in my later teens and I thought that "attraction" was apparent. And I whole heartedly agree with others that having Declan kill her was a terrible decision. So anticlimactic. 

Surprised little is said of Logan's first partner here. I'm drawing a blank on the name of the character and actress at the moment. I wasn't a fan of Logan being brought in because I loved Goren so much. Now I've watched many of Logan's episodes this time around and he grew on me a bit. But yeah, I hated the "bad cop" crap they constantly brought up in his episodes. Like that's so rare in NYC? Ha! It was a bit much. 

I am not and never have been a Goren and Eames shipper. I love them as a working team but can't see them as lovers or a couple for some reason. 

I can't decide which episode is my f favorite. I love Suite Sorrow, Tuxedo Hill, In The Wee Small Hours, Death Roe, No Exit, The Gift, But Not Forgotten & Bedfellows (My Adelaaii!!) I read on the old forum where someone said the actress that played Charlene was on other episodes? I never saw her on another episode. She was not in Slither.  She was very good as Charlene. I envy her physique so I looked for her on rewatch and no go. I saw Lena's actress at least 3 times. And the actress in Suite Sorrow played the killer in that episode and in the astronaut episode. 

Edited to add that I LOVE Deakins. Now that is a great looking older man! I also like Carver a lot too.  CBV knocked that role out of the park.

This is a great post. I'll have to come back in the morning to unpack it all.

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, turbogirlnyc said:

I am not and never have been a Goren and Eames shipper. I love them as a working team but can't see them as lovers or a couple for some reason. 

I'm not hard core, but I do think there is more than just a working relationship. A strong friendship, at the very least. But I'm a romantic at heart. If they are just friends? Great. But I do think - with both forever being unattached - more would not be impossible. But that is all I'll say, because we all have our own POVs, which I respect.

Oddly, however, the way you feel about G/E is how I feel about Stabler/Benson over on SVU. Maybe because of Stabler being married forever with kids. Or maybe because Olivia has bugged me for some time now. But I wish they'd stay just friends and stop cross pollinating their respective shows.

Back to CI, Logan's first CI partner was Carolyn Barek. Who, incidentally, popped up on an episode of SVU around February.

[turbogirlnyc]

4 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I'm not hard core, but I do think there is more than just a working relationship. A strong friendship, at the very least. But I'm a romantic at heart. If they are just friends? Great. But I do think - with both forever being unattached - more would not be impossible. But that is all I'll say, because we all have our own POVs, which I respect.

Oddly, however, the way you feel about G/E is how I feel about Stabler/Benson over on SVU. Maybe because of Stabler being married forever with kids. Or maybe because Olivia has bugged me for some time now. But I wish they'd stay just friends and stop cross pollinating their respective shows.

Back to CI, Logan's first CI partner was Carolyn Barek. Who, incidentally, popped up on an episode of SVU around February.

Yes, it's definitely possible and maybe even probable. I saw the last episode for the first time a few nights ago but didn't realize it was the last episode until there were no more episodes to watch and then I got to a few posts about it here and was like, ugh, I didn't even pay attention the end because I was Twittering while watching. Lol. I think they would be good together but I just never saw them that way. Goren did really care about her though. The way he freaked out when Eames was kidnapped. 

After I posted above I came across a few posts about Barek (sp?) And yeah, it was Annabelle Sciora! Her character just came across as not wanting to be there. Very low energy and not into it. Hard to explain. Maybe she wasn't happy with the role? Idk. 

Love Goren's mannerisms in the first seasons. Love how he bends forward and gets in the perps faces during interrogations. It really boggles the mind that VDO wasn't a bigger name in Hollywood. Such talent!

 

 

[WendyCR72]

I know in April of last year (2020), VDO tweeted how he would like to revisit Goren. But nothing ever happened. Maybe he was just spitballing. Or maybe with Stabler's return, maybe Dick Wolf thought that was enough. Who knows?

All this to say, though, that I'd love to see more adventures with Goren/Eames. But if it isn't meant to be, at least there are the repeats.

[turbogirlnyc]

On 7/28/2020 at 2:59 AM, WendyCR72 said:

Oxygen has gone from S8 to S1. "One" is about to end with "Art" to begin next, then "Smothered". I still love Bobby's line to creepy Sylvia Moon at the end as she was crying for sympathy and Goren just says, "Welcome to the human race!"

Still amazes me - as I did not know for some time - that the same actress to play Sylvia Moon (Elizabeth Marvel) would play Jenny Hendry/Wendy LeBlanc in "Prisoner" from S5 (which just aired again recently). As said, that episode and "Homo Homini Lupus" are the only two episodes of the franchise where there was no murder!

(Which, I have read, is more in line with the real Major Case, which deals with art thefts and such. At least "Art" was in the ballpark!  🙂  But I imagine the show could not sustain no murders for 10 seasons, soooo...)

I didn't realize this until I read your post in the old forum! She looked so "harsh in "Art". Maybe it was the hair? Sorry I can't think of a term other than "harsh" to describe it.

Sorry for the continuous posts. I'm just so happy to be with others that love CI like me. Well, at least the Eames & Goren CI 😉. 

[WendyCR72]

Just now, turbogirlnyc said:

I didn't realize this until I read your post in the old forum! She looked so "harsh in "Art". Maybe it was the hair? Sorry I can't think of a term other than "harsh" to describe it.

Sorry for the continuous posts. I'm just so happy to be with others that love CI like me. Well, at least the Eames & Goren CI 😉. 

Nice to see some more names here, so no worries!

And, yeah, Sylvia had the art school look going. Jenny/Wendy looked more fragile.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

I think Nicole Wallace became overused but I also think Olivia D'Abo did a great job with the character. I personally saw a little bit of a crush or an attraction between her and Goren (not a popular opinion, I know). I first saw CI episodes in my later teens and I thought that "attraction" was apparent. And I whole heartedly agree with others that having Declan kill her was a terrible decision. So anticlimactic. 

I agree. She was overused, whenever she showed in in an episode, I immediately lost interest. I don't think Bobby had a crush on her per se, I think he was fascinated by her pathology. And there was undoubtedly chemistry between the two actors.

Quote

 I am not and never have been a Goren and Eames shipper. I love them as a working team but can't see them as lovers or a couple for some reason. 

No, I wasn't either. I see him loving her and she loved him but in a more familial way than a romantic way.

Quote

I can't decide which episode is my f favorite. I love Suite Sorrow, Tuxedo Hill, In The Wee Small Hours, Death Roe, No Exit, The Gift, But Not Forgotten & Bedfellows (My Adelaaii!!) I

I like those too and I have to add Tomorrow. Merrit Wever as Hannah was beyond terrific. Adding some memorable last words: "Stones around my neck! Stones around my neck!" and "Egg cup! Egg cup!" 

Quote

Edited to add that I LOVE Deakins. Now that is a great looking older man! I also like Carver a lot too.  CBV knocked that role out of the park.

They were both criminally mistreated by the writers and producers. 

[Xeliou66]

19 hours ago, turbogirlnyc said:

I've paid for Peacock for two months now to get my fill of CI. I got rid of cable in 2007 (I've been streaming ever since) and although I bought season 1 on Prime video, my favorite episodes are in seasons 3-5. I've also been reading through the CI forums. I can't get CI's forums on TWOP with the Way Back Machine for whatever reason. Love to read others comments since I'm the only person I know who loved CI IRL. Early Goren is a masterpiece thanks to VDO. Love him and absolutely abhorred the personal crap they brought into the show in later seasons. That's what made CI a good show. It never got personal, unlike SVU (ugh that show is awful and how it's still going is beyond me). People have shite taste, I guess? Lol. 

I think Nicole Wallace became overused but I also think Olivia D'Abo did a great job with the character. I personally saw a little bit of a crush or an attraction between her and Goren (not a popular opinion, I know). I first saw CI episodes in my later teens and I thought that "attraction" was apparent. And I whole heartedly agree with others that having Declan kill her was a terrible decision. So anticlimactic. 

Surprised little is said of Logan's first partner here. I'm drawing a blank on the name of the character and actress at the moment. I wasn't a fan of Logan being brought in because I loved Goren so much. Now I've watched many of Logan's episodes this time around and he grew on me a bit. But yeah, I hated the "bad cop" crap they constantly brought up in his episodes. Like that's so rare in NYC? Ha! It was a bit much. 

I am not and never have been a Goren and Eames shipper. I love them as a working team but can't see them as lovers or a couple for some reason. 

I can't decide which episode is my f favorite. I love Suite Sorrow, Tuxedo Hill, In The Wee Small Hours, Death Roe, No Exit, The Gift, But Not Forgotten & Bedfellows (My Adelaaii!!) I read on the old forum where someone said the actress that played Charlene was on other episodes? I never saw her on another episode. She was not in Slither.  She was very good as Charlene. I envy her physique so I looked for her on rewatch and no go. I saw Lena's actress at least 3 times. And the actress in Suite Sorrow played the killer in that episode and in the astronaut episode. 

Edited to add that I LOVE Deakins. Now that is a great looking older man! I also like Carver a lot too.  CBV knocked that role out of the park.

Great post and I’ll give some thoughts on it. I love Goren as well and also abhor the personal crap they put him through in seasons 6-7, I’m very glad Goren got his mojo back in season 10 and the show went out on a high note.

I also never sensed any romantic chemistry between Goren/Eames, I think they just made for a great partnership. I hate the Nicole storyline, and yes it was very anti climatic how she was whacked offscreen by Declan Gage.

I love Logan, he was great on the original L&O and I’m glad he was brought over to CI. I liked Barek, Logan’s first partner, pretty good, I never cared for Wheeler much as she didn’t have any personality I felt like, I liked Falacci, Logan’s partner for 5 episodes in season 7, she added a spark to the show.

Those are great episodes that you mentioned, I love all of those as well. I think In The Wee Small Hours is my all time favorite CI episode, but there are so many great ones, seasons 1-5 of this show were just fantastic.

Deakins and Carver are awesome, and both were criminally underused, it’s a shame they didn’t get larger roles in many episodes.

And yes I love the minimal personal stuff of seasons 1-5, minimal personal stuff is one of the main reasons the original L&O is my favorite show ever, it was all about the cases, and CI’s first 5 seasons were the same way. Seasons 6-7 were such a drastic change for the worse for CI with all of the personal Goren soapy shit, I’m really glad CI returned to form in season 10 and gave Goren/Eames and the show a good ending.

 

 

[WendyCR72]

As I said, I liked some personal stuff. Fleshed out the actual characters rather than just be interchangeable chess pieces. But being the lone wolf here is kinda cool. 😎

Which, of course, means I did like Seasons 6 and 7, too. (As I said, though, S9 was interminably BORING, to me!)

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

As I said, I liked some personal stuff. Fleshed out the actual characters rather than just be interchangeable chess pieces. But being the lone wolf here is kinda cool. 😎

Which, of course, means I did like Seasons 6 and 7, too. (As I said, though, S9 was interminably BORING, to me!)

Season 9 was rather dull I agree - while I was okay with Nichols, both Stevens and Callas were way too dull and low key for me, and the cases were a mixed bag, I liked some of them and didn’t care for others. Season 6 is my least favorite by a mile, not a lot of good cases and a lot of soapy garbage. Season 7 was okay, while I didn’t like some of the soapy stuff I thought they did have mainly good episodes that season. Season 8 was somewhat odd with episodes airing out of order and stuff but I liked it overall. But it wasn’t until the short final season that CI really felt like golden age 1-5 CI again.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Season 9 was rather dull I agree - while I was okay with Nichols, both Stevens and Callas were way too dull and low key for me, and the cases were a mixed bag, I liked some of them and didn’t care for others. Season 6 is my least favorite by a mile, not a lot of good cases and a lot of soapy garbage. Season 7 was okay, while I didn’t like some of the soapy stuff I thought they did have mainly good episodes that season. Season 8 was somewhat odd with episodes airing out of order and stuff but I liked it overall. But it wasn’t until the short final season that CI really felt like golden age 1-5 CI again.

Season 8 was just weird. It wasn't bad, and had some good episodes, like "Lady's Man", but the weird airing order and no real explanation for Wheeler's exit (I thought Megan Wheeler was vanilla, but she was on for 3 seasons and at least deserved a mention after her kid was born...), it just seemed sort of...abrupt.

Again, I know there was a Writers' Strike in 2008, but the point stands.

At least Walon Green as EP meant less of Bobby in despair and a bit of subtlety back in the writing. (If Warren Leight had remained as EP, I think the episode, "Identity Crisis", for example, would have gone overly heavy handed with the parallels between Thomas Burrell and Goren with regard to their schizophrenic mothers!)

[Xeliou66]

42 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Season 8 was just weird. It wasn't bad, and had some good episodes, like "Lady's Man", but the weird airing order and no real explanation for Wheeler's exit (I thought Megan Wheeler was vanilla, but she was on for 3 seasons and at least deserved a mention after her kid was born...), it just seemed sort of...abrupt.

Again, I know there was a Writers' Strike in 2008, but the point stands.

At least Walon Green as EP meant less of Bobby in despair and a bit of subtlety back in the writing. (If Warren Leight had remained as EP, I think the episode, "Identity Crisis", for example, would have gone overly heavy handed with the parallels between Thomas Burrell and Goren with regard to their schizophrenic mothers!)

Season 8 was odd I agree, also with the missing episode The Glory That Was which still isn’t shown for bizarre reasons, and All In was weird as well with them trying to do a follow up to Cruise to Nowhere but giving characters different names and stuff, but for the most part I liked season 8 - Wheeler was dull and I didn’t really care about her exit, Eames pairing with Nichols for 2 episodes was interesting. Most of the cases were pretty good - I like Lady’s Man, Family Values, Identity Crisis, Major Case to name a few. And I liked how the soapy elements were dialed back. But yeah 8 had some oddities - I would rank it above seasons 6 and 9, below seasons 10 and 1-5, and about on par with 7. 

[WendyCR72]

I still am curious as to what the deal was with "All In" and "Cruise To Nowhere". The details made it more than clear that Josh Snow was Joey Frost (complete with "cold" names with Frost/Snow!) and the girlfriend in S5 ended up his wife and he was raising her kid.

I can only guess that there was some sort of financial and/or copyright issues with the writer of the original episode or something, so changes had to be made. That was very odd, though. And was the original actor playing Joey not available? Why the recast?

Not to say I disliked "All In"; I did like it. But those details still raise a lot of questions.

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

I still am curious as to what the deal was with "All In" and "Cruise To Nowhere". The details made it more than clear that Josh Snow was Joey Frost (complete with "cold" names with Frost/Snow!) and the girlfriend in S5 ended up his wife and he was raising her kid.

I can only guess that there was some sort of financial and/or copyright issues with the writer of the original episode or something, so changes had to be made. That was very odd, though. And was the original actor playing Joey not available? Why the recast?

Not to say I disliked "All In"; I did like it. But those details still raise a lot of questions.

I was so puzzled about the ties to Cruise to Nowhere I could barely focus on All In. Why the fuck did they change the characters names? Even if they couldn’t get the actors back to play them, use the same names if you want to do a follow up. Beyond weird - another weird thing from season 8. 

[peacheslatour]

I know a lot of people here have a problem with Palimpsest. I can't remember now. Watching it now. It seems like a typical Nichols episode to me.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

I know a lot of people here have a problem with Palimpsest. I can't remember now. Watching it now. It seems like a typical Nichols episode to me.

Well, it was never explained why Nichols had to travel all the way to London to talk to some woman that is never identified about a mentally-ill love of his that Nichols had never mentioned before or since.

Add in that the dialogue from the characters involved sounded stilted, like something out of an old Harlequin novel, and yeah. I hated that episode. It felt NOTHING like a CI or even franchise episode as a whole.

[Xeliou66]

48 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I know a lot of people here have a problem with Palimpsest. I can't remember now. Watching it now. It seems like a typical Nichols episode to me.

Palimpsest was beyond strange and not in a good way. It didn’t feel like CI at all, it felt like some strange mystery movie or something, including its castle like setting, and the scenes with Nichols in London. Really weird.

[WendyCR72]

And I know other cops in the franchise dealt with cases they should not have been near (hi, Eames, as one example, with her hubby!), but at least Eames had the "cover" of having a different last name from her husband's.

Nichols, knowing the deceased and being involved with his daughter should have been pulled from the case immediately. As much as the butler guy was guilty, I'd think he could easily create reasonable doubt just because of Nichols being the investigator.

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Palimpsest was beyond strange and not in a good way. It didn’t feel like CI at all, it felt like some strange mystery movie or something, including its castle like setting, and the scenes with Nichols in London. Really weird.

See, I liked all of that. Everything doesn't need to be "hard boiled NYC cop" stuff.

Edited June 29, 2021 by peacheslatour

[Xeliou66]

4 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

See, I liked all of that. Everything doesn't need to be "hard boiled NYC cop" stuff.

It just felt really unrealistic and like it was in a fantasy world, it was totally unlike anything L&O had ever done, I found it ridiculous and laughable. 

[peacheslatour]

2 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

It just felt really unrealistic and like it was in a fantasy world, it was totally unlike anything L&O had ever done, I found it ridiculous and laughable. 

Do you really think TV cop shows are realistic?

[Xeliou66]

43 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Do you really think TV cop shows are realistic?

No not really - although the original L&O did a pretty good job of being fairly realistic throughout its run, the spin-offs were less realistic, especially modern SVU which seems to abandon reality in favor of the ridiculous a lot of the time. But the L&O franchise did seem grounded in reality and had a very good formula, and Palimpsest was a total deviation from all of that, it just seemed like a far fetched mystery movie that wasn’t set in the same universe as L&O, it was just beyond strange and it didn’t work for me - the L&O franchise has a great formula, and when they screw with it, like with Palimpsest or with Aftershock on the Mothership, it usually isn’t good. So Palimpsest just didn’t work for me, at all, it felt like a fantasy movie.

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

No not really - although the original L&O did a pretty good job of being fairly realistic throughout its run, the spin-offs were less realistic, especially modern SVU which seems to abandon reality in favor of the ridiculous a lot of the time. But the L&O franchise did seem grounded in reality and had a very good formula, and Palimpsest was a total deviation from all of that, it just seemed like a far fetched mystery movie that wasn’t set in the same universe as L&O, it was just beyond strange and it didn’t work for me - the L&O franchise has a great formula, and when they screw with it, like with Palimpsest or with Aftershock on the Mothership, it usually isn’t good. So Palimpsest just didn’t work for me, at all, it felt like a fantasy movie.

As I said, the dialogue in "Palimpsest" was so weird. For example, when the couple, who were friends of Lenore, were at 1PP, saying, "Who did this ghastly thing?" Who the hell talks like that?!

And that kind of diction was all through the episode, also with Lenore telling Zack, "I am not free to marry."

Just frickin' WEIRD, to me.

At least in most of the other episodes of the franchise, the characters spoke like actual human beings of the 20th/21st century.

[Gramto6]

"Palimpsest" was definitely weird/different but in a way with all the oddities, I do like it. It is kind of like the "Twilight Zone" of LO/CI.

[peacheslatour]

11 hours ago, Gramto6 said:

"Palimpsest" was definitely weird/different but in a way with all the oddities, I do like it. It is kind of like the "Twilight Zone" of LO/CI.

I liked too. Mainly because I don't consider the Nichols episodes to be canon and secondly because it was like those old timey "collect all the suspects in the drawing room while the detective brilliantly reveals whodunnit" tropes that are so dear to my heart.

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Mainly because I don't consider the Nichols episodes to be canon

I'm no real Nichols fan, as you all are well aware (LOL!), but why don't you consider Nichols episodes canon? Just curious!

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

I'm no real Nichols fan, as you all are well aware (LOL!), but why don't you consider Nichols episodes canon? Just curious!

I dunno, he just seemed like a place filler with a bit of stunt casting thrown in.

[Xeliou66]

I just watched Poison - great episode, Trudy was an evil, chilling villain, she was just ice cold and cared about nothing aside from opening her store, and her mom was just kind of pathetic and spineless. I loved Briscoe and Green’s cameo, 4 of my favorite detectives in one scene, and Briscoe calling the commissioners office “those idiots” and Goren suggesting they leak the story to the press and I liked how Goren/Eames kept quiet when Deakins asked who leaked the story. I also liked Goren talking to his “tree hugger” friends  and getting key information from them.

As I’ve said before, I would love to know how Goren got Carver to go along with his plan to indict the mother - Carver wouldn’t have gone along without being throughly convinced, and the DA, at the time Nora Lewin, would’ve been keeping a close eye on the case as it was very high profile, so I just wonder how Carver agreed to go along with it, since it meant indicting someone they believed didn’t do it, and what Nora knew about it.

[turbogirlnyc]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:07 AM, peacheslatour said:

 I like those too and I have to add Tomorrow. Merrit Wever as Hannah was beyond terrific. Adding some memorable last words: "Stones around my neck! Stones around my neck!" and "Egg cup! Egg cup!" 

Yes, I liked Tomorrow, as well! I actually loved the twist of the soap opera. And funny you mention Merritt Weaver because she made such an impression on me (especially that scene at the end of the episode), that I immediately recognized her on Nurse Jackie. It's one of the first I looked for when I got Peacock. She is super talented.

Lol, Egg Cup! That was a decent episode too. Too bad her real parents both turned out to be horrible people. 

As a side note, CI has a lot of actor crossover with The Sopranos, Falucci included. 

I was bummed that Peacock Original Recipe L&O starts at season 13. So no Mike Logan, no Ben, no Jill Hennessy, etc. I was looking for an episode I saw in college on reruns. It was about a child dying in the hospital after the mom refused treatment because of her religion. The State prosecuted. I want to say Ben was the lawyer and Logan and Brisco were the law duo. Not nearly as familiar with original L&O as with CI. Anyway, I can't imagine why NBC doesn't have rights to old L&O.

Edited June 30, 2021 by turbogirlnyc
Wrong quote posted

[Xeliou66]

9 minutes ago, turbogirlnyc said:

Yes, I liked Tomorrow, as well! I actually loved the twist of the soap opera. And funny you mention Merritt Weaver because she made such an impression on me (especially that scene at the end of the episode), that I immediately recognized her on Nurse Jackie. It's one of the first I looked for when I got Peacock. She is super talented.

Lol, Egg Cup! That was a decent episode too. Too bad her real parents both turned out to be horrible people. 

I love Tomorrow, it’s a great episode with some wild twists about the nannies acting out the soap opera. I really wish they hadn’t deleted the scene where Goren, Eames and Carver consult with Skoda about the case, Skoda’s commentary added a lot of insight into the nannies psyche and motivations.

And yeah, The Good Child is great as well, and Trevor screaming “EGGCUP” at the end was hysterical to me.

[turbogirlnyc]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:01 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I was so puzzled about the ties to Cruise to Nowhere I could barely focus on All In. Why the fuck did they change the characters names? Even if they couldn’t get the actors back to play them, use the same names if you want to do a follow up. Beyond weird - another weird thing from season 8. 

I'm puzzled too. I've seen Cruise to Nowhere quite a few times and when I went back to watch All In after reading here, I didn't even recognize it as the same actor.

[Xeliou66]

2 minutes ago, turbogirlnyc said:

I'm puzzled too. I've seen Cruise to Nowhere quite a few times and when I went back to watch All In after reading here, I didn't even recognize it as the same actor.

Yeah the actors were different, as were the character names. Why they didn’t just keep the characters names even if they couldn’t get the same actors is beyond me. I like Cruise to Nowhere a lot, really good plot, I’m not a big fan of All In, in part because of how confused I was.

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, turbogirlnyc said:

I'm puzzled too. I've seen Cruise to Nowhere quite a few times and when I went back to watch All In after reading here, I didn't even recognize it as the same actor.

It wasn't. But based on all the history given and the close "cold theme" names (Joey Frost/Josh Snow), it's clear it was supposed to be the same character, but older. Why the original actor could not play him, I've no idea.

On another note, I still continue to love the scene in "Homo Homini Lupis" that just aired where Goren tracked the scumbag kidnapper/rapist in the restaurant by his Bonanza ring tone and holds his gun to the guy's head as he conversationally asks, "Are you going to answer that?"

[Dirtybubble]

On 6/26/2021 at 7:07 PM, turbogirlnyc said:

I personally saw a little bit of a crush or an attraction between her and Goren (not a popular opinion, I know). I first saw CI episodes in my later teens and I thought that "attraction" was apparent. And I whole heartedly agree with others that having Declan kill her was a terrible decision. So anticlimactic. 

I too had often wondered about Goren's relationship with Nicole.  Obvs not in love kinda way but she did challenge him in a lot of ways.  Maybe similar to the way Holmes felt about Professor Moriarty.  They challenged each other and with Goren's intelligence I can see that being difficult to do.  *shrug*

On 6/26/2021 at 7:07 PM, turbogirlnyc said:

I am not and never have been a Goren and Eames shipper. I love them as a working team but can't see them as lovers or a couple for some reason. 

ITA!  It always bugged me how S10/the series ended without any real resolution so I always just so them as really good buds or brother & sister even.  Not every male and female working relationship has to be romantic.

 

On 6/27/2021 at 6:47 PM, WendyCR72 said:

As I said, I liked some personal stuff. Fleshed out the actual characters rather than just be interchangeable chess pieces. But being the lone wolf here is kinda cool. 😎

Right there with ya!  Brings me back to the days of CSI where the detectives where fleshed out and given identities with love interests and such.  Ya don't have to be a blank slate all the time.  IMHO I would have liked to seen more side stories with the captains, M.E., or even Carver for that matter.  Their characters were so flat sometimes.

LOVED Logan and I liked his personal story line too.  I was all about the Renewal episode!  

HATED season 9.  I never really liked Jeff Goldblum as an actor and I didn't want to watch him mumble his way thru the Nichols character. 

[peacheslatour]

Quote

I too had often wondered about Goren's relationship with Nicole.  Obvs not in love kinda way but she did challenge him in a lot of ways.  Maybe similar to the way Holmes felt about Professor Moriarty.  They challenged each other and with Goren's intelligence I can see that being difficult to do.  *shrug*

Or Irene Adler. "The Woman" as he called her.

[Xeliou66]

I think the Goren/Nicole stuff was definitely based on Sherlock Holmes/Moriarty, given that Holmes was one of the characters that inspired Goren and Moriarty and Nicole were both professors etc. 

I am really glad that they never made the Goren/Eames relationship romantic, not all male/female relationships have to be romantic, I just found Goren/Eames to be a great working partnership but never sensed romantic chemistry there.

As I’ve said before, I don’t care for personal drama and liked how the show stuck to the cases for the most part. I do wish Deakins and Carver had gotten meatier storylines though, they were great characters who were underused and it would’ve been interesting for them to have at least one episode where they took center stage. I love Logan as well but Renewal just felt really strange and soapy, but like I said, I loved Logan talking about seeing Lennie Briscoe alive in his dreams and finding it hard to believe Lennie was gone, that was an emotional moment. 

[WendyCR72]

I do like that S10 was ambiguous for the viewers that saw more than partners (moi) and those that did not. I think the lack of resolution was smart and by design.

And, as I pointed out pages back, it wasn't just viewers seeing different things: The show fed both sides where G/E were concerned. They were usually the only team to play a couple going undercover, (Logan/Falacci did do so in "Seeds", but never with Barek!) Moran made a point to mention Alex's "deep, personal feelings" when giving her the task to fire Goren, and S10 even had them flirting a bit. And many an episode with people telling Alex to "hook up with a real man", the prime rib comment with Eric Roberts' character in S7, and Dean Holiday "reading" the issues of their relationship in "Vanishing Act", Bobby being out of sorts when Alex left to have her sister's baby, and his complete collapse and being unable to focus to really investigate when Alex was abducted. The other pairings seemed strictly partners, etc.

ETA: Also forgot both members of Bobby's family mistaking their relationship, with Frank - upon hearing Alex was his partner - "what are you waiting for?" - and Frances Goren telling Bobby she wanted to meet his "girlfriend". So the show definitely knew there were two audience factions and tended to play it down the middle, IMO.

So, yeah. Said it before, but the show wanted its cake and to eat it, too. So it was almost a fait accompli that the nature of G/E's feelings would be debated!

No, not all partnerships have to be romantic [I feel that way about Stabler/Benson, so I get it!], but in this case, I get the ambiguity and actually like it, to allow for everyone to think as they like.

[txhorns79]

On 6/30/2021 at 5:21 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I do wish Deakins and Carver had gotten meatier storylines though, they were great characters who were underused and it would’ve been interesting for them to have at least one episode where they took center stage.

I was glad Carver was eventually dropped.  I got they thought they needed an ADA to have the Order part of the show, but the legal scenes were always the worst.  The perps almost always had terrible attorneys who let them confess to everything. 

[Xeliou66]

14 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I was glad Carver was eventually dropped.  I got they thought they needed an ADA to have the Order part of the show, but the legal scenes were always the worst.  The perps almost always had terrible attorneys who let them confess to everything. 

Well, I strongly disagree with most of your post. I agree about some of the attorneys being very weak and not telling their clients to shut up, but Carver was a great character who added a lot to the show with his legal expertise and the show really missed that when he left. There wasn’t as much depth to the cases without Carver, and I really liked Carver’s personality. It was a huge mistake for them to drop the legal side of the show.

[WendyCR72]

Speaking of bad attorneys, at least the perp confessing made sense once the deadly sisters from "Tomorrow" got saddled with Shattenstein (sp?). I recall seeing him on the Mothership, too, where he seemed marginally more competent.

19 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I was glad Carver was eventually dropped.  I got they thought they needed an ADA to have the Order part of the show, but the legal scenes were always the worst.  The perps almost always had terrible attorneys who let them confess to everything. 

Well, it didn't help that the later EP, Warren Leight [who later went to SVU, left, and now returned there!], is well known to dislike the courtroom stuff. Which makes me wonder just why Dick Wolf put him in charge of shows that had Law & Order in their titles! *shrug*

[txhorns79]

19 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Well, it didn't help that the later EP, Warren Leight [who later went to SVU, left, and now returned there!], is well known to dislike the courtroom stuff. Which makes me wonder just why Dick Wolf put him in charge of shows that had Law & Order in their titles! *shrug*

I feel like Criminal Intent was so much about Goren that it did not really need the "Order" component in every episode, and it felt like at times they struggled to work Carver into the story.