Law & Order: Criminal Intent - General Discussion

[Xeliou66]

I saw The Healer today, that has to be arguably the weirdest CI episode ever with its voodoo theme and bizarre murders, but I liked the episode, the explanations for the murders were complex but the plot was entertaining and I liked Logan’s reactions to the voodoo stuff, I also liked seeing ME Rodgers play a large role in the case. Carver seemed unusually irritated at the start with the detectives, I didn’t get why, he was usually very calm but not so at the start of this episode, that was odd I thought. Interesting episode.

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I saw The Healer today, that has to be arguably the weirdest CI episode ever with its voodoo theme and bizarre murders, but I liked the episode, the explanations for the murders were complex but the plot was entertaining and I liked Logan’s reactions to the voodoo stuff, I also liked seeing ME Rodgers play a large role in the case. Carver seemed unusually irritated at the start with the detectives, I didn’t get why, he was usually very calm but not so at the start of this episode, that was odd I thought. Interesting episode.

I have to wait until this episode rolls around on Oxygen. Or ION, because I'm not sure if the latter will start with the first season or not.  Because I can't recall how many times Carver and Logan shared scenes in Vance's last season. I just get a thrill that the first time they do on this show, that Noth's Logan, played the detective to Vance's murderer on the Mothership in Noth's final season.

[WendyCR72]

ION has changed the return date for CI. It was originally set for Wednesday, June 19th, starting at 10:00 a.m. Now it says Monday, June 24th, starting at...7:00 a.m. It is still starting at the beginning, Season 1 Episode 1, with "One".

[Sigmagirl]

On 5/3/2019 at 2:48 AM, WendyCR72 said:

Oxygen is finishing up with S9 in late night and is going to show the 8 episodes of S10. After that, on the morning of 05/17, at 3:00 a.m. (so DVR), Season 5 will begin. (This is for you, @GHScorpiosRule! And anyone else that wants to see Mike Logan again.)

And in the meantime, it’s been months since they’ve played episodes like Chinoiserie, Best Defense, See Me, and Probability. 

[WendyCR72]

19 minutes ago, Sigmagirl said:

And in the meantime, it’s been months since they’ve played episodes like Chinoiserie, Best Defense, See Me, and Probability. 

Well, S1 is cycling through on WE late night (early Tuesday and Wednesday mornings) now and since it goes in order, S2 should be popping up again in the next few weeks! So keep a look out on the listings and set your DVR.  🙂

[WendyCR72]

Speaking of ION, the schedule will go forward like this. Monday and Tuesday mornings from 7:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m., so 4 episodes a day, every Monday and Tuesday.

[WendyCR72]

Per TV listings, WE is at it again soon. For anyone that checks in on the marathons, after the usual Thursday/Friday marathon on 05/23 and 05/24, the show will have what looks like another marathon starting at 10:00 a.m. ET on Tuesday, 05/28.

Which means the Mothership must be moving again. I'll have to see what is going on there.

ETA: Looks like the Mothership will also still be on Tuesdays but now splitting it with CI, which will air 'til 3, then the Mothership takes over. Same schedule for Wednesdays, which means CI is now on 4 days a week as the Thursday/Friday marathons remain.

[WendyCR72]

Just a reminder for the Mike Logan junkies here: S5 begins on Oxygen overnight, so set those DVRs!

[bkathi]

On 5/9/2019 at 1:34 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I saw The Healer today, that has to be arguably the weirdest CI episode ever with its voodoo theme and bizarre murders, but I liked the episode, the explanations for the murders were complex but the plot was entertaining and I liked Logan’s reactions to the voodoo stuff, I also liked seeing ME Rodgers play a large role in the case. Carver seemed unusually irritated at the start with the detectives, I didn’t get why, he was usually very calm but not so at the start of this episode, that was odd I thought. Interesting episode.

I love seeing a young Oscar Isaac in this episode.  He played Robby.

[WendyCR72]

9 hours ago, bkathi said:

I love seeing a young Oscar Isaac in this episode.  He played Robby.

I know Robby was used, but...he DID help smother two women to death, even unknowingly. He shouldn't have had nothing in the way of punishment, IMO. At least, he should have been charged with manslaughter or something!

[WendyCR72]

WE showed a lot of S7 yesterday (Friday). And while I still like "Frame" and the callbacks and such, one thing I never mentioned before (I know!) that kind of made me go "hmm..." was the fact that Bobby had no clue what either Declan or Jo was up to since "Blind Spot".

Intellectually, I get it, since Jo went after Alex and we saw how Bobby reacted to that. But I would think he would keep tabs just to assure himself and Alex that she was truly no longer a threat, being crazy and all. So Bobby not knowing about Declan losing his faculties and about his stomach parasites just seemed a bit off, to me.

Still could not get over how much older actress Molly Gottlieb looked as Gwen Chappell in "Frame" versus just 2 or so years before in "Grow". Always was a downer that her father basically succeeded in killing her, albeit slowly.

[Broderbits]

13 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

was the fact that Bobby had no clue what either Declan or Jo was up to since "Blind Spot".

Jo was arrested at the end of "Blind Spot" and sent to prison; Bobby knew exactly where she was. Declan was at Goren's mother's funeral, but they probably didn't interact enough for Bobby to notice him acting weirder than usual.

[WendyCR72]

6 hours ago, Broderbits said:

Jo was arrested at the end of "Blind Spot" and sent to prison; Bobby knew exactly where she was. Declan was at Goren's mother's funeral, but they probably didn't interact enough for Bobby to notice him acting weirder than usual.

Well, "weird" seemed to be Declan's default, so... And Bobby is sort of off kilter (not meaning so in a derogatory way), so maybe he would not have thought much of it. Besides, considering Bobby's Mommy issues, I bet he was much more focused on her loss even if Declan was around. And probably fuming that Frank didn't show. (Which we knew through Alex telling Frank she didn't see him there.)

And, yeah, Jo was locked up. But whether for himself, Alex, or Jo herself (since Bobby knew her for so long), you would have thought he would keep tabs. The fact that he had no idea she was in a coma and had bitten her tongue off sort of surprised me. Especially since Bobby felt guilty about the attention Declan lavished upon him while basically ignoring Jo, which he even apologized for. (I did say this before, but I liked how VDO played Bobby reacting to Jo's confession, trying to remain neutral/friendly, but his little eye close as Jo mentioned killing Eames was a nice touch. Ditto the breath he took when he and Ross found Eames' car in the parking garage just before Bobby popped the trunk and found that woman's body in there (since Bobby was mentally preparing to see Alex!).)

[Xeliou66]

I have to say once again, I hate Frame and the whole storyline relating to Goren’s family, it was a total soap opera. It was like a totally different show than the first 5 seasons, the first 5 seasons were 100% about the cases and then season 6 became more about personal drama with the cases being incredibly weak. And having Goren’s bio dad turn out to be a serial killer was just utterly over the top and ridiculous. The whole thing was just so out of place for an L&O show and it didn’t even feel like CI then. And I hated how they made Rodgers look bad by revealing Goren’s personal info to Ross, and I hated the hint of a romantic relationship between Rodgers and epic douchebag Ross.

[WendyCR72]

22 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I have to say once again, I hate Frame and the whole storyline relating to Goren’s family, it was a total soap opera. It was like a totally different show than the first 5 seasons, the first 5 seasons were 100% about the cases and then season 6 became more about personal drama with the cases being incredibly weak. And having Goren’s bio dad turn out to be a serial killer was just utterly over the top and ridiculous. The whole thing was just so out of place for an L&O show and it didn’t even feel like CI then. And I hated how they made Rodgers look bad by revealing Goren’s personal info to Ross, and I hated the hint of a romantic relationship between Rodgers and epic douchebag Ross.

I liked "Frame". Yes, I said it. It was soapy, but it also made Goren face his demons - demons which, unfortunately, included a mentor he trusted as a surrogate father, and made him see Declan Gage for what he was. When Declan told Bobby he was free, I think that was the beginning of the end of Bobby hating himself. Yeah, S8 was a mess. But so was every show around that time because, well...can't fight the chaos of a Writers' Strike. And that shortened the season and Lord knows who was really overseeing those S8 scripts, so S8 was an explainable mess, at least.

I also like - for good or bad - that episode wrapped up the Frank stuff which, like with their mother, weighed Goren down. Let's face it. It all had to be addressed. And "Frame" killed 3 birds with one stone: Frank, the Declan/Jo mess, and Nicole. While I wished the Nicole stuff had ended long before and, if it had to end here, have Bobby deal with her, in the end, I was just glad it was all put to bed. Brady as Goren's dad was a low point, but it also definitely was an explanation for his mother's indifference for him and worship of Frank. And I think that little secret played out decently enough in terms of Bobby's shrink sessions in S10, and was a component as to why he was so...screwed up, I guess.

On another note, I think VDO did great in the scene with Eames and Ross in Ross' office when Goren confronted Ross. Most especially the nonverbal cues, just that mocking smile and eyebrow raise as he stared Ross down.

And I did like the callback with Gwen. While her fate ended up sad (dying of cancer), it felt more "real", addressing a prior case. The show was decent with history and callbacks.

As you know, though, I do agree about Rodgers breaking confidentiality to Ross and that whole thing. It sucked. And I don't think Goren was out of line for flipping out, especially since Ross' motives (how Goren was a target, or so he told Rodgers) seemed far less noble than he tried to make it seem since he so easily believed Goren was a murderer. So I liked Alex being so abrupt with Ross through all of that.

I did get a laugh when that finance guy, who recurred in a few other episodes, seemed so petrified of Alex when he entered that conference room rambling to Ross about Bobby's financials.

Just as an aside, and I know it doesn't mean anything one way or another as the likely number of voters is a microcosm, but with this debate, it is interesting to note that "Frame" is ironically the second-highest rated episode of the series on IMDB at 9 out of 10 stars, only beaten by "Endgame" at 9.1. So I guess this show had two audiences. Some that liked the S1-5 style better, then the other half.

I guess, like any show, it does take all kinds!  🙂

[Xeliou66]

I was glad that Frame ended all of the soapy plots, but god it was painful to watch. The whole soap surrounding Goren’s personal life was so unnecessary, as was the whole formula change in general, the first 5 seasons were excellent and the change in style in season 6 ruined the show.  

The Nicole storyline should’ve ended with Great Barrier, they should’ve gone with the ending where she was killed and let that be it, that storyline was just ridiculous and I was glad she was bumped off, but it should’ve been Goren and Eames to do it, not Declan offscreen. 

And yes we are on the same page regarding Rodgers, I hated how Rodgers violated patient confidentiality and told Ross about Goren’s father. And I loathed Ross, he was such an epic douche who didn’t trust his detectives at all and was demeaning and condescending to them, the hint of a relationship between the awesome ME Rodgers and Captain Douche made me sick. 

I don’t actually think season 8 was that much of a mess, yes some of the episodes were out of order and there is the infamous episode that is never shown, The Glory That Was, but I thought season 8 was solid overall, it marked a return to focusing on the cases and not on personal soaps. The cases weren’t quite as strong as seasons 1-5, but they were still good and felt much more like classic CI, so I actually like season 8. 

[WendyCR72]

29 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I was glad that Frame ended all of the soapy plots, but god it was painful to watch. The whole soap surrounding Goren’s personal life was so unnecessary, as was the whole formula change in general, the first 5 seasons were excellent and the change in style in season 6 ruined the show.  

Which was, ironically, under Warren Leight. Amazing how on one branch of the franchise that he is so well liked, and on CI, he...wasn't that great. Interesting that you liked S8 since Walon Green took over as EP then. Maybe Leight's melodrama works better on SVU?

I think S10 really did help close the show on a high note. Bobby had some of his groove and humor back and...he remembered how to smile. Who knew?

The thing that made me scratch my head was why G/E were so broken up about Ross' demise considering how he treated them (well, mainly Goren) 99% of the time.

As for "The Glory That Was", if TPTB knew it would piss off the Olympic Committee, why make the damned episode at all if it was going to be left out of the national syndication package and left off of the US Season 8 DVD? (It is on the European version, which I also have for completeness' sake. I like the European cover better, too. Just saying!)

[Xeliou66]

10 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Which was, ironically, under Warren Leight. Amazing how on one branch of the franchise that he is so well liked, and on CI, he...wasn't that great. Interesting that you liked S8 since Walon Green took over as EP then. Maybe Leight's melodrama works better on SVU?

I think S10 really did help close the show on a high note. Bobby had some of his groove and humor back and...he remembered how to smile. Who knew?

The thing that made me scratch my head was why G/E were so broken up about Ross' demise considering how he treated them (well, mainly Goren) 99% of the time.

As for "The Glory That Was", if TPTB knew it would piss off the Olympic Committee, why make the damned episode at all if it was going to be left out of the national syndication package and left off of the US Season 8 DVD? (It is on the European version, which I also have for completeness' sake. I like the European cover better, too. Just saying!)

It’s weird how Leight revived SVU while he wrecked CI. I think part of it is that the formula of SVU needed to be changed whereas the CI formula didn’t. 

I don’t think they knew how controversial The Glory That Was would be, but it’s very weird how it’s still never shown on TV. It’s really bizarre.

Yeah I didn’t get why everyone was so broken up over Ross biting the dust either, he treated his detectives like crap and was a pompous, arrogant prick. I certainly wasn’t saddened by his demise. 

Season 10 was the best season since season 5 and it did end CI on a high note, it was really nice to see Goren being 100% himself again, the cases were gripping and complex, and we got a good captain in Joe Hannah again. 

What was your opinion on season 8? It was pretty good IMO, I liked how it marked a return to focusing on the cases and not on soapy personal plots. I saw 2 season 8 episodes yesterday, Astoria Helen and Folie A Deux, both were pretty good episodes IMO. 

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

What was your opinion on season 8? It was pretty good IMO, I liked how it marked a return to focusing on the cases and not on soapy personal plots. I saw 2 season 8 episodes yesterday, Astoria Helen and Folie A Deux, both were pretty good episodes IMO. 

Narrative wise, what with being obviously aired out of order, I still maintain S8 was a bit of a mess. (Obvious because Goren would be clean shaven one episode, then with longer hair with a beard, then back again!). But the episodes themselves, most were decent to good. Like you, I liked "Folie A Deux" and "Astoria Helen" was okay. I did like the follow up to "Cruise To Nowhere" from S5, "All In", even if I still am at a loss as to the Joey Frost/Josh Snow name change and such. And I really liked "Lady's Man". It was nice to see some focus on Eames and to see her be a bit off kilter for once with Goren having her back.

I guess it was unavoidable since she was really pregnant and not returning, but I still scratch my head at Megan Wheeler getting no true exit. She was on the show for three seasons. But she goes to have her baby and...poof! But again, the Writers' Strike probably had a lot to do with it, too.

I am curious if the whole "Goren in Tennessee" stuff was supposed to be where he was when he was with his "niece" at the beginning of "Faithfully". Obviously, that was when he came back and Eames met him in Staten Island, but later on, like in "Major Case", Eames mentioned Tennessee, which really made that whole timeline a mess.

In terms of S10, I wish the original ending was an extra. It was filmed. Portions were used in USA commercials back in the day. Also, it would have been cool to see the cameo of Rene Balcer, the EP from S1-5, who was in the "busier street" ending. He was just someone on the street, apparently. (But Goren wasn't exiting the shrink brownstone, but some big city building. Maybe it was felt just having G/E near the brownstone alone worked better.)

And you mention Joe Hannah. I have the press/screener version of "The Consoler" (via eBay), and in the episode originally, he was in the opening credits with his own shot after VDO/KE, like Jamey Sheridan and Eric Bogosian were. It was originally the premiere with a lot of cops welcoming G/E back and a slightly different last scene involving Eames and Hannah. But when Charlie Sheen lost his marbles, CI made "Rispetto" and that was the premiere. (The screener still had the old ending shot of Goren, Eames, and Ross walking saying "Re-shoot with J. Sanders" at the top. Obviously, that never happened, he didn't keep his opening credit and was reduced to "Also Starring" with the other guest stars. Curious as to why the change there!

[GHScorpiosRule]

I have my stupid fakakta General Hospital if I want "soapy" or want to watch soaps. I don't watch this show or the Mothership, for nonsensical, self-indulgent drama. Though the mothership only did that with "Aftershock" and was a one and done, thank goodness.

I HATED all the personal drama with Goren. They destroyed that wonderful, smart, intelligent detective who didn't take things personally, into a rage monster, so mired in personal issues with his mother, brother and Sheriff Brody as his serial killing sperm donor, that I could never really get back to enjoying this show. And the sad thing is, Leight was involved in this show in the early seasons. I remember seeing his name. It seems when certain writers get the "producer" credit, their writing goes to SHIT. Balcer seems to be the exception.

I also did not shed any tears when Ross bought it. A bigger blowhard of an asshole I've never met. He seemed to have a grudge against both Mike and Goren.

I've never liked Wheeler. She was just so...bland. She had NO personality. Her affect was just so...flat. I know that over on TWoP, people hated Alicia Witt's Falacci, but I LOOOOVED HER. I thought she was a very good foil for Mike, seeing as she had the temper that he once had when he was younger. She actually had a personality.

I guess they thought the actress did a good enough job when she guest starred on the mothership as the half-sister to the murder victim, that Dickless thought she'd be a good fit on this show?

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I've never liked Wheeler. She was just so...bland. She had NO personality. Her affect was just so...flat. I know that over on TWoP, people hated Alicia Witt's Falacci, but I LOOOOVED HER. I thought she was a very good foil for Mike, seeing as she had the temper that he once had when he was younger. She actually had a personality.

I didn't hate Falacci. She could annoy me, but I didn't hate her. Wheeler suffered as a character, I think, because...and I am not trying to sound sexist as a woman myself...it seemed Julianne Nicholson was off more on maternity leave than she was on the show. Her first pregnancy was at the end of her very first season! Then her second, the seventh, she was off for the first 11 episodes. By the time Megan Wheeler was back full time, it was a short window until her next pregnancy the following season. Kind of hard to truly develop a character when she isn't around. And what's weird is, there was a synopsis about Wheeler's criminal father in a S6 episode synopsis, forget which, that never made it to air. So it does make me wonder what the story is, since a story early on focusing on Wheeler just went poof.

Still, however, I guess when compared to Barek - who seemed asleep to me half the time - people seemed to think Wheeler was a breath of fresh air or something. Shrug.

And while I get the point about Goren, all of these characters got mired in soap at some point. See Logan and that Holly chick in "Renewal". Logan became all about some bare acquaintance to the point where he was neglecting the case of the murdered cadet. Mothership Logan was impulsive, but he never neglected cases. Seems Warren Leight just liked everyone miserable and/or unstable.

[wknt3]

18 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Which was, ironically, under Warren Leight. Amazing how on one branch of the franchise that he is so well liked, and on CI, he...wasn't that great. Interesting that you liked S8 since Walon Green took over as EP then. Maybe Leight's melodrama works better on SVU?

TV success is all about timeslots! When you come in after a period of tremendous creative success it's a lot harder to look good than when you're following a few years of a series going completely off the rails. And yes WL's focus on his protagonists' family issues and his tendency towards melodrama is much more aligned with classic SVU than classic CI. I will remind everyone too that he had very different marching orders. On SVU he was told to bring the show back to something closer to the earlier seasons the fans loved. On CI  he was told to mess with success and try to bring in elements from other hit shows that didn't really fit. I think about 2/3rds of what we don't like about Leight's seasons would have happened no matter who was in charge and some of the rest would have been replaced by other stuff we didn't like (for instance some of Goren's issues were simply steering into the skid of VDO's own troubles and however the EP handled it it likely wouldn't have measured up to the earlier years).

Quote

I think S10 really did help close the show on a high note. Bobby had some of his groove and humor back and...he remembered how to smile. Who knew?

Yes. Too bad nobody at NBCUniversal seems to have learned that announcing a final season of a L&O franchise ahead of time and telling everyone involved to give the fans what they want and go back to basics makes for great television and will lead the fans to forgive you for everything.
 

Quote

As for "The Glory That Was", if TPTB knew it would piss off the Olympic Committee, why make the damned episode at all if it was going to be left out of the national syndication package and left off of the US Season 8 DVD? (It is on the European version, which I also have for completeness' sake. I like the European cover better, too. Just saying!)

I think the network execs underestimated the pettiness of the IOC and the producers underestimated the cravenness of NBC's top brass. Which means neither were paying attention...

[WendyCR72]

5 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

(for instance some of Goren's issues were simply steering into the skid of VDO's own troubles

This, I'm not entirely sure of. Not that VDO didn't have issues. He was very frank about it on a recent podcast. But he also pinpointed that era around S4/S5, which was why Chris Noth was brought to the show in the first place. (He was frank about S4 being a big blur.)

By S7/S8, I think it was less those issues than just being burnt out/tired which most actors get. I will concede he seemed more than ready to fly after S8. Which made his last hurrah/return in S10 that much more surprising. And while I know actors are NOT their characters or saints of any kind, in a YT video that he and KE did together as a goodbye, it seemed that last season was some sort of thank you to the loyal fanbase, so at the very least, VDO was aware and grateful for that much.

I think part of the problem with CI was just too many different visions mixed with actor issues and the middle just lost its way. Still, at least it righted itself. Some shows don't ever manage to do that. And as far as SVU is concerned, the jury's still out there.  😉

[WendyCR72]

30 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

On CI  he was told to mess with success and try to bring in elements from other hit shows that didn't really fit. I think about 2/3rds of what we don't like about Leight's seasons would have happened no matter who was in charge and some of the rest would have been replaced by other stuff we didn't like

Forgot this part in my first post. Why the hell would the network WANT TO mess with what was successful?! Seems to me that sounds like a form of sabotage somehow. If something works, you don't take a sledge hammer to it.

Makes me wonder if Rene Balcer left voluntarily or if the network wanted these changes and Balcer balked and gave the reins over to Leight.

[Xeliou66]

I never cared for Wheeler, I found her very bland. I did like Falacci and I wish she had been kept on, she was interesting and had good chemistry with Logan. Wheeler was just dull IMO. 

This show was never good about giving characters exits, most of the time they just disappeared without a mention of what happened to them. Notably this happened to Carver, he just vanished and was never seen or heard from again, we don’t know what happened to Barek, Logan barely got an exit, Wheeler didn’t get an exit, the only one to really get an exit was Deakins and I thought he should’ve gotten a better one. 

3 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Narrative wise, what with being obviously aired out of order, I still maintain S8 was a bit of a mess. (Obvious because Goren would be clean shaven one episode, then with longer hair with a beard, then back again!). But the episodes themselves, most were decent to good. Like you, I liked "Folie A Deux" and "Astoria Helen" was okay. I did like the follow up to "Cruise To Nowhere" from S5, "All In", even if I still am at a loss as to the Joey Frost/Josh Snow name change and such. And I really liked "Lady's Man". It was nice to see some focus on Eames and to see her be a bit off kilter for once with Goren having her back.

I guess it was unavoidable since she was really pregnant and not returning, but I still scratch my head at Megan Wheeler getting no true exit. She was on the show for three seasons. But she goes to have her baby and...poof! But again, the Writers' Strike probably had a lot to do with it, too.

I am curious if the whole "Goren in Tennessee" stuff was supposed to be where he was when he was with his "niece" at the beginning of "Faithfully". Obviously, that was when he came back and Eames met him in Staten Island, but later on, like in "Major Case", Eames mentioned Tennessee, which really made that whole timeline a mess.

I liked most season 8 episodes. I have to admit I didn’t care for All In, although I liked Cruise to Nowhere a lot, I was incredibly distracted by how they changed Joey Frost to Josh Snow even though they were obviously the same character and I found the story to just be bland, and the final confession would never hold up since Goren had a gun on him, which I found bizarre. I liked Folie A Deux a lot, it felt like a classic CI episode with a gripping case and a focus on the perps, and Astoria Helen was decent although somewhat complex and I found to be a glaring hole how they didn’t check the dental records on the body to confirm it was Joe, whoever did the original autopsy must’ve been terrible as they didn’t do that and they said he died in the fire which he didn’t. I liked how season 8 marked a return to the focus on the cases and the criminals and not on personal soaps. 

As for the Goren/Tennessee thing, I’m pretty sure there was no continuity error there, Goren was in Michigan with family at the start of Faithfully, not Tennessee, and it was said in Major Case that Goren was in Tennessee on work business. 

[WendyCR72]

2 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I liked Folie A Deux a lot, it felt like a classic CI episode with a gripping case and a focus on the perps

Yeah, as I said, I liked it, too. But I had to laugh a bit at the very end, when the baby's remains were wheeled in. Does the coroner's office also have a barber shop? Because Goren's hair and beard were much shorter/trimmed versus the rest of the episode. Hee.

On a more somber note, I did like where Goren told Rodgers the poem next to the remains was by Elizabeth Barrett Browning and how André couldn't even be original for his own daughter.

[wknt3]

2 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

This, I'm not entirely sure of. Not that VDO didn't have issues. He was very frank about it on a recent podcast. But he also pinpointed that era around S4/S5, which was why Chris Noth was brought to the show in the first place. (He was frank about S4 being a big blur.)

By S7/S8, I think it was less those issues than just being burnt out/tired which most actors get. I will concede he seemed more than ready to fly after S8. Which made his last hurrah/return in S10 that much more surprising. And while I know actors are NOT their characters or saints of any kind, in a YT video that he and KE did together as a goodbye, it seemed that last season was some sort of thank you to the loyal fanbase, so at the very least, VDO was aware and grateful for that much.

I think part of the problem with CI was just too many different visions mixed with actor issues and the middle just lost its way. Still, at least it righted itself. Some shows don't ever manage to do that. And as far as SVU is concerned, the jury's still out there.  😉

I'm not sure of exactly what was going on when, but simply based on physical appearance I don't think he was capable of playing the character with the same energy and verve as in earlier seasons even with the reduced schedule. I agree the last season was meant as a thank you to the fanbase from everyone involved including VDO and KE. I don't think he was ungrateful or unaware by any means - that would minimize what seems to me to be some serious mental and physical health challenges he faced. And yes CI is a classic case of too many cooks in the kitchen. Or perhaps network executives with delusions of creativity?

3 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Forgot this part in my first post. Why the hell would the network WANT TO mess with what was successful?! Seems to me that sounds like a form of sabotage somehow. If something works, you don't take a sledge hammer to it.

Makes me wonder if Rene Balcer left voluntarily or if the network wanted these changes and Balcer balked and gave the reins over to Leight.

See above re: delusions of creativity. Also there is the desire to justify your existence and valuing buzz and hipness rather then viewers. If you are a hack you look at CSI, see it gets higher ratings then CI and think if you can copy some random elements you can get those same higher ratings. Or you try to make it more of a "USA show" even if it makes no sense to and your boss' bosses have approved sharing the show with another network that is looking for something completely different. It makes no sense of course, but it happens over and over again.

Good point re; Renee Balcer that I had never thought of before! Maybe he got tired of fighting with the network? You don't last as long as he has in the Dick Wolf fold if you don't know when to move on.

[wknt3]

5 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Yeah, as I said, I liked it, too. But I had to laugh a bit at the very end, when the baby's remains were wheeled in. Does the coroner's office also have a barber shop? Because Goren's hair and beard were much shorter/trimmed versus the rest of the episode. Hee.

They have scissors and razors and Rodgers has an interest in changing hairstyles...

[WendyCR72]

On 5/29/2019 at 8:04 PM, wknt3 said:

They have scissors and razors and Rodgers has an interest in changing hairstyles...

True! Gotta say, though, I never thought the blonde worked for Leslie Hendrix. But hey, not my hair! 🙂 But, to me, the red hair suited her and the character's blunt personality.

[WendyCR72]

I have never visited this site and, actually, don't view this site much on my phone (desktop mainly), so I was a bit surprised to see this site and story pop up today on my phone. All the more mystifying is, these articles are three years old!

But some site called Plagiarism Today, which talks about - duh, plagiarism! - dissects two episodes of CI that dealt with perps with that subject. Why? Don't know. Slow news day back in 2016? But in reading, I guess the author was also a fan of the series. Anyway, the two episodes written about, if you want to pass the time and take a look, are:

"Self Made" from S7

"Pravda" from S3.

Again...sort of weird. Oh, well!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oxygen is WEIRD. Most of the season five episodes are airing in order, but they skipped over my ALL-TIME FAVORITE ALL TEAM TEAMUP "In the Wee Small Hours"!!!! And I'm pretty sure the "Acts of Contrition" that aired was from Oxygen, or maybe it wasn't, because whatever aired before it, Oxygen asked if I wanted to "buy" "Acts of Contrition." And I'm like, whuuut? I just SAW it! BAH! It might have aired on my other local affiliate, but I don't think so, because that was airing season 8. And whaddya know? Oxygen bleeps out "pot to piss in" but didn't bleep out the N-Word in "Acts of Contrition."

But these episodes were sooooo good. Know why? Because ♥️💕Balcer 💕♥️co-wrote every damn one of them.

And the local affiliate ends with Season 8--Logan's final episode, "Last Rites" and instead of nine, will start with season one! Thanks be to the TV GODS for that. Though I hate, hate, hate, with the heat of a million gazillion nuns, ADA Driver. NOT DA Driver. ADA Driver, with her playing politics and her being an amoral shady one with higher political ambitions. Where the FUCK was Foghorn Leghorn to reign her ass in? I get that we knew Noth was leaving the show, and I suppose I should be grateful Logan wasn't dumped back in Staten Island? PUH-LEAZE. And as for no family? The hell he doesn't.  He has some family out there. During his run on the Mothership, there was a line about how he had a nephew that liked whatever gadget the cops were talking about. That could be a cousin's kid. Hell, he's CATHOLIC. I'm sure he had uncles and aunts galore. So I call BULLSHIT on making him this loner with NO ONE, as he clearly put in for his pension.

"Unchained" was AWESOME. I loved the mention of Lennie. But Virgini was right, even though he was trying to goad Mike to lose his temper. When things fell apart for Mike at the end of season five on the mothership, Lennie was nowhere to be found, while he constantly showed loyalty to other cops he'd worked with in his younger days and at other precincts. And I remain bitter, irked, and pissed that Mike Logan was described and shown to be some kind of habitual troublemaker/problematic cop during the course of his career. He did only ONE thing wrong. And that was to punch the murdering homophobic councilman in the face. And he got dumped in Staten Island for 10 YEARS for that. He was never under any IAB investigations during his tenure at the 2-7. So Virgini's lawyer, saying that nonsense about Logan having a "record of misbehavior" just makes me ragey and stabby.

"Proud Flesh" was very confusing, but so good as well. And I had totally forgotten that the non-speaking Asian in this one, at the jewelry shop, would reunite with D'Onofrio in Season One of Netflix's DareDevil, as Madame Gao to his Kingpin!

But they're skipping "Washichu" which I don't understand why they're skipping certain episodes.

"Wrongful Life" is also another favorite of mine.

I'm so bitter because this is the last of the cunning and intelligent Goren who isn't beset by his demons or issues that I will be seeing. Or the awesomeness of a supporting Captain in Deakins.

We got Goren making Eames that espresso while investigating the murder in "Scared Crazy" which, I will not lie, made me smile. Oxygen better not skip over "Healer" and that's all I have to say.

Edited June 4, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[Xeliou66]

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Oxygen is WEIRD. Most of the season five episodes are airing in order, but they skipped over my ALL-TIME FAVORITE ALL TEAM TEAMUP "In the Wee Hours"!!!! And I'm pretty sure the "Acts of Contrition" that aired was from Oxygen, or maybe it wasn't, because whatever aired before it, Oxygen asked if I wanted to "buy" "Acts of Contrition." And I'm like, whuuut? I just SAW it! BAH! It might have aired on my other local affiliate, but I don't think so, because that was airing season 8. And whaddya know? Oxygen bleeps out "pot to piss in" but didn't bleep out the N-Word in "Acts of Contrition."

But these episodes were sooooo good. Know why? Because ♥️💕Balcer 💕♥️co-wrote every damn one of them.

And the local affiliate ends with Season 8--Logan's final episode, "Last Rites" and instead of nine, will start with season one! Thanks be to the TV GODS for that. Though I hate, hate, hate, with the heat of a million gazillion nuns, ADA Driver. NOT DA Driver. ADA Driver, with her playing politics and her being an amoral shady one with higher political ambitions. Where the FUCK was Foghorn Leghorn to reign her ass in? I get that we knew Noth was leaving the show, and I suppose I should be grateful Logan wasn't dumped back in Staten Island? PUH-LEAZE. And as for no family? The hell he doesn't.  He has some family out there. During his run on the Mothership, there was a line about how he had a nephew that liked whatever gadget the cops were talking about. That could be a cousin's kid. Hell, he's CATHOLIC. I'm sure he had uncles and aunts galore. So I call BULLSHIT on making him this loner with NO ONE, as he clearly put in for his pension.

"Unchained" was AWESOME. I loved the mention of Lennie. But Virgini was right, even though he was trying to goad Mike to lose his temper. When things fell apart for Mike at the end of season five on the mothership, Lennie was nowhere to be found, while he constantly showed loyalty to other cops he'd worked with in his younger days and at other precincts. And I remain bitter, irked, and pissed that Mike Logan was described and shown to be some kind of habitual troublemaker/problematic cop during the course of his career. He did only ONE thing wrong. And that was to punch the murdering homophobic councilman in the face. And he got dumped in Staten Island for 10 YEARS for that. He was never under any IAB investigations during his tenure at the 2-7. So Virgini's lawyer, saying that nonsense about Logan having a "record of misbehavior" just makes me ragey and stabby.

"Proud Flesh" was very confusing, but so good as well. And I had totally forgotten that the non-speaking Asian in this one, at the jewelry shop, would reunite with D'Onofrio in Season One of Netflix's DareDevil, as Madame Gao to his Kingpin!

But they're skipping "Washichu" which I don't understand why they're skipping certain episodes.

"Wrongful Life" is also another favorite of mine.

I'm so bitter because this is the last of the cunning and intelligent Goren who isn't beset by his demons or issues that I will be seeing. Or the awesomeness of a supporting Captain in Deakins.

We got Goren making Eames that espresso while investigating the murder in "Scared Crazy" which, I will not lie, made me smile. Oxygen better not skip over "Healer" and that's all I have to say.

Great post and I have some comments:

Terri Driver was an ADA in Queens, not Manhattan, so she wasn’t working under Arthur Branch, she was working for whoever the Queens DA was. And Logan’s final episode was at the end of season 7, not 8. And I hate Driver with a passion as well and wanted to punch her in the face everytime she was on screen.

About Logan’s record, he was shown to have a hot temper many times on the Mothership and got rough with suspects a few times, remember in Bad Faith when Cragen told him to “keep his famous temper in check”? So he could’ve been under IAB investigation before. 

I love Unchained as well and I loved the mention of Briscoe. I love season 5 in general, most episodes from that season are great, In The Wee Small Hours might be my favorite CI episode ever, I loved seeing the 4 detectives work together, the case was gripping plus Carver and Deakins got large roles. 

The show was so great in seasons 1-5, I really hate how they destroyed it in season 6 by making it into a soap opera. Only in the brief season 10 did the show feel like Golden Age CI again, I’m glad it went out on a high note.

[WendyCR72]

I hate that Oxygen skipped "Wee Hours", too.   😞 Season 5 on Oxygen is winding down. Per listings, the next season shown will be S6, which is actually in order.

But I have to say, I'm not all that sad that "Wasichu" was skipped. That one always bored me to death.

[WendyCR72]

9 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Oxygen better not skip over "Healer" and that's all I have to say.

No fear. "Drama Giocoso", "The Healer", and "Vacancy" (God, I hate that whiny Alice chick in that one!) will air on early Thursday morning from 3:00 a.m. to 6:00 a.m., so make sure those DVRs are set!

"Cruise To Nowhere" and "To The Bone" air the next morning, Friday, at 4:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m.

[Xeliou66]

55 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I hate that Oxygen skipped "Wee Hours", too.   😞 Season 5 on Oxygen is winding down. Per listings, the next season shown will be S6, which is actually in order.

But I have to say, I'm not all that sad that "Wasichu" was skipped. That one always bored me to death.

I’ve always really liked Wasichu, I found it compelling, complex but a compelling case, and I liked how Deakins and Carver got a larger role in the episodes. I guess we just have a different opinion on that one, I think it’s a strong episode.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Xeliou66

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Great post and I have some comments:

Terri Driver was an ADA in Queens, not Manhattan, so she wasn’t working under Arthur Branch, she was working for whoever the Queens DA was. And Logan’s final episode was at the end of season 7, not 8. And I hate Driver with a passion as well and wanted to punch her in the face everytime she was on screen.

About Logan’s record, he was shown to have a hot temper many times on the Mothership and got rough with suspects a few times, remember in Bad Faith when Cragen told him to “keep his famous temper in check”? So he could’ve been under IAB investigation before. 

I love Unchained as well and I loved the mention of Briscoe. I love season 5 in general, most episodes from that season are great, In The Wee Small Hours might be my favorite CI episode ever, I loved seeing the 4 detectives work together, the case was gripping plus Carver and Deakins got large roles. 

The show was so great in seasons 1-5, I really hate how they destroyed it in season 6 by making it into a soap opera. Only in the brief season 10 did the show feel like Golden Age CI again, I’m glad it went out on a high note.

D'OH! You're right. I meant to say season 7.  Driver was Queens' ADA? BAH! Figures.

Well, yeah, we saw Mike's temper when he would knock heads with Max and even Phil. I think once with Lennie. I think that's what Cragen was referring to. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! That his famous temper was always "in-house" and that the only time we got to see him go over the line before he punched that Councilman was in Season Two's opener, when he threatened Max's killer.

And Wheeler's shady fiance was played by that obnoxious actor who played the dirty Defense Attorney who used to be an ADA in the 19th? season of the Mothership.

[WendyCR72]

I could see Logan being under investigation through IAB, but at the same time, if he and/or Goren were as horrible as the higher ups thought in later seasons, I don't think Logan could have been hired by Deakins for Major Case (no matter how many favors Deakins had, which was the reasoning used to get Logan there to begin with!) and I don't think Goren would have been re-hired after his firing.

Yes, they had issues. But they were also shown in past years to be great cops. So I like to think of it as someone upstairs holding a grudge against both for...reasons.

[GHScorpiosRule]

15 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I could see Logan being under investigation through IAB, but at the same time, if he and/or Goren were as horrible as the higher ups thought in later seasons, I don't think Logan could have been hired by Deakins for Major Case (no matter how many favors Deakins had, which was the reasoning used to get Logan there to begin with!) and I don't think Goren would have been re-hired after his firing.

Yes, they had issues. But they were also shown in past years to be great cops. So I like to think of it as someone upstairs holding a grudge against both for...reasons.

See, I can't. Because if he was, then the Mothership would have used that during the first five seasons. IAB was constantly getting in their faces. There was never a remark toward Mike when he and Max were trying to clear Cragen in "The Blue Wall" just orders for them to stay out of it. And the grudge/trashing of their characters is pure PLOT!CONTRIVANCE! One would think Mike was a dirty cop that no one wanted to touch, so Deakins burned a lot of favors to get him back to Manhattan. Fuck you, Dick Wolf.

And YAY! Season One with "One" aired last night or was it Monday night? on my local affiliate. But why they flipped episode two and one, where "Art" aired first and then "One" is confuzzling. And D'Onofrio looked soooo thin! It's just so, so, sad what the show did to him in Season 6 until the end. He was smart. He was cunning. He looked beyond face value. 

And STFU, Nora. I'd forgotten she had a cameo near the end. With her smug "Do you Trust him?" to Carver about Goren, and then the more smug "Should I Trust You?" Bullshit.

And I won't lie: I laughed, or rather, snerked at Goren's promise to the girl's parents in "One" that he would find who killed her, and Deakins wasn't there to tell him 'You never promise such a thing' when in Season 17 of the Mothership, when Cassady did the same thing, Van Buren ripped her a new one for promising. Then again, Goren is a veteran cop, Cassady was just stupid.

Edited June 5, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[WendyCR72]

18 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I won't lie: I laughed, or rather, snerked at Goren's promise to the girl's parents in "One" that he would find who killed her, and Deakins wasn't there to tell him 'You never promise such a thing'

Well, Alex did ask him how he could keep such a promise. And, to be fair, since this was the pilot episode for CI, I think they wanted to show that Goren was driven to speak for the victims or whatnot, and that was the shortcut du jour to show it.

Still so odd to know Sylvia Moon in "Art"in S1 was the same actress (Elizabeth Marvel) to play fragile Jenny/Wendy, Corbin Bernsen's scummy prison warden character's wife in "Prisoner" in S5. Her voice even seemed different for both characters.

And yes, I still laugh at how "Art" depicts Troy, NY. Yeah...no.

[wknt3]

21 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I won't lie: I laughed, or rather, snerked at Goren's promise to the girl's parents in "One" that he would find who killed her, and Deakins wasn't there to tell him 'You never promise such a thing' when in Season 17 of the Mothership, when Cassady did the same thing, Van Buren ripped her a new one for promising. Then again, Goren is a veteran cop, Cassady was just stupid.

3 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Well, Alex did ask him how he could keep such a promise. And, to be fair, since this was the pilot episode for CI, I think they wanted to show that Goren was driven to speak for the victims or whatnot, and that was the shortcut du jour to show it.

That's how I took it - it was a way of establishing Goren's personality. Not only is he driven to the point of obsession, but he doesn't always follow SOP and is brilliant enough to get away with it, most of the time. It also sets up Eames and the partnership nicely - she's the grounded one who challenges him and tries to keep him tethered to reality. It really is a good piece of writing in that it's a nice emotional dramatic moment that really shows us who those two characters are.

[Xeliou66]

I’m watching season 1 today, and I saw Jones, Talbot’s wife always pisses me off in this, she was remarkably blind and stupid not to see that her husband was a murderous slimebag piece of shit, she continued to help him even after she knew the detectives were searching for him. Fuck her, she should be charged for obstruction and accessory, I loved Goren’s angry interrogation of her, and his final interrogation of Talbot was classic Goren. Good episode with a fast paced plot. Carver only had a couple of lines of the dialogue in the episode, but there was a lot of Deakins. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Well, Alex did ask him how he could keep such a promise. And, to be fair, since this was the pilot episode for CI, I think they wanted to show that Goren was driven to speak for the victims or whatnot, and that was the shortcut du jour to show it.

8 hours ago, wknt3 said:

That's how I took it - it was a way of establishing Goren's personality. Not only is he driven to the point of obsession, but he doesn't always follow SOP and is brilliant enough to get away with it, most of the time. It also sets up Eames and the partnership nicely - she's the grounded one who challenges him and tries to keep him tethered to reality. It really is a good piece of writing in that it's a nice emotional dramatic moment that really shows us who those two characters are.

Oh, I realize that. But having just recently gone through watching the last 9 seasons of the Mothership, it just made me giggle when I saw Goren promise and Eames ask him about said promise. THIS is the Goren I LOVE. 

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’m watching season 1 today, and I saw Jones, Talbot’s wife always pisses me off in this, she was remarkably blind and stupid not to see that her husband was a murderous slimebag piece of shit, she continued to help him even after she knew the detectives were searching for him. Fuck her, she should be charged for obstruction and accessory, I loved Goren’s angry interrogation of her, and his final interrogation of Talbot was classic Goren. Good episode with a fast paced plot. Carver only had a couple of lines of the dialogue in the episode, but there was a lot of Deakins. 

Yeah, and her arrogance when Goren was questioning her, a la "He did it for ME!" Oh, yeah. He killed a bunch of women, but it is All. ABOUT. YOU.

She really should have been charged for obstruction, at the very least.

[Sigmagirl]

Re “The Good Doctor”: They make a big deal out of Kelmer’s “Friends and family” list being in alphabetical order, and they use that to show what a control freak he was. At the time, if I had needed to provide such a list, I would simply have handed over my Christmas card list, and it would have been in alphabetical order. Big deal.

[Xeliou66]

30 minutes ago, Sigmagirl said:

Re “The Good Doctor”: They make a big deal out of Kelmer’s “Friends and family” list being in alphabetical order, and they use that to show what a control freak he was. At the time, if I had needed to provide such a list, I would simply have handed over my Christmas card list, and it would have been in alphabetical order. Big deal.

I don’t think most people have a Christmas card list in alphabetical order, I certainly don’t, I think that would be unusual. 

The Good Doctor is one of my favorite CI episodes, I love seeing them go into the courtroom and Kelmer was a memorable, smug villain. It was a great episode despite how straightforward it was.

[WendyCR72]

21 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I don’t think most people have a Christmas card list in alphabetical order, I certainly don’t, I think that would be unusual. 

The Good Doctor is one of my favorite CI episodes, I love seeing them go into the courtroom and Kelmer was a memorable, smug villain. It was a great episode despite how straightforward it was.

Alex, I think, was right about one thing, though: Kelmer was convicted because he was a raging douche, not because of any real evidence. (Still love the blooper at the end of the trial/verdict dated as April 30th, yet Carver, Goren, and Eames exit the courthouse steps in winter coats and gloves. Valerie was killed in January, I think. If the show wanted the realistic time jump, just have the three talking in the empty courtroom afterwards!)

[Xeliou66]

On 6/7/2019 at 4:34 PM, WendyCR72 said:

Alex, I think, was right about one thing, though: Kelmer was convicted because he was a raging douche, not because of any real evidence. (Still love the blooper at the end of the trial/verdict dated as April 30th, yet Carver, Goren, and Eames exit the courthouse steps in winter coats and gloves. Valerie was killed in January, I think. If the show wanted the realistic time jump, just have the three talking in the empty courtroom afterwards!)

Juries frequently convict based on how much they like the defendant or not. And I thought the circumstantial evidence against Kelmer was very strong. I liked seeing Carver get him to explode on the stand, I wish CI had gone into the courtroom more often.

[Sigmagirl]

Goren really was coming close to being held in contempt of court. I suppose they’d prearranged what would have happened, like in My Cousin Vinny? 😆 Does the police union provide lawyers to help with bail? Would Eames bail him out? Would Carver help? 

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, Sigmagirl said:

Goren really was coming close to being held in contempt of court. I suppose they’d prearranged what would have happened, like in My Cousin Vinny? 😆 Does the police union provide lawyers to help with bail? Would Eames bail him out? Would Carver help? 

I think Goren knew when to stop before getting held in contempt. And yeah if he had been I think Carver would’ve smoothed things over with the judge to get him out. I remember an SVU episode where Stabler was held in contempt and Novak I believe got him out.

[wknt3]

1 hour ago, Sigmagirl said:

Goren really was coming close to being held in contempt of court. I suppose they’d prearranged what would have happened, like in My Cousin Vinny? 😆 Does the police union provide lawyers to help with bail? Would Eames bail him out? Would Carver help? 

12 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I think Goren knew when to stop before getting held in contempt. And yeah if he had been I think Carver would’ve smoothed things over with the judge to get him out. I remember an SVU episode where Stabler was held in contempt and Novak I believe got him out.

Carver would have helped. Eventually. After letting Goren cool his heels a bit...