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Especially when Nancy Travis is older and larger body structure both up to and below. "

Yea nothing against either actress (it wasn't meant to be any kind of criticism) but they so clearly have totally different body shapes and size, to the point where the bit was just stupid.

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When Mike and Ed take Ryan and his supposedly-ailing dad, Victor, on their hunting trip, Victor admits he wasn't truthful about his reasons for finally coming to see Ryan. Meanwhile, Vanessa scrambles to get more family members to attend Ryan and Kristin's wedding.

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You know if this ends up being the final episode and the show doesn't get renewed. As I have said many times before there is a lot of wasted stories if they had to put Ryan and Boyd right up front the last few years they should have had Ryan's family in more. Now, his father is showing up just before he get's married to his only grandson's mother. Of course he has other motivations, Ryan has talked about it the last 3 years how his dad is a jerk. As for Vanessa trying to get more family members to come, at this point, who cares? You'll save money in the long run and not to mention, I think its basically the writers version of how most fans see Ryan/Kristin/Boyd. They don't care about them and good luck finally having them married so they can be one Big Happy Family. 

Edited by readster

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I really enjoyed this episode.  I laughed at loud quite a few times.  Although it was a good episode, I didn't think it would make for a good series finale.  Here's hoping that this show is renewed!

Edited by me5671
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While enjoyable, the episode felt very out of place leaving things in the air. Especially if Kristin is going through with the wedding now. I think the biggest problem this season is they left many things up in the air ended things out of nowhere. The vaccine episode is a great example of writing to fit the plot and at the end we still had no idea if Boyd finally got his shots. Not to mention never explained how Ryan never got immunized. Vanessa's leaving her job over a very stupid reason and then magically getting into her high school job was really inconsistent. From being in as an intern to magically working there full time not to mention what she was really teaching. Science? Geology? Business? Ed's girlfriend losing the baby, it was very heart breaking but they set it up wrong. Then no mentioned of it for about 5 episodes and then: "She lost the baby, it was a boy." I know LMS is a comedy but they could have shown Ed dealing with being a dad again and his daughter's having a new sibling 20 years later before the tragedy. Or how about Eve's weird sports problems with the football team, invisible boyfriends and then her friend who might have been attracted to her? That was a real mess this season and don't get me started on Kyle and Mandy. Now here with Ryan's dad, who should have been on the show a while ago and then just shows up for very weird reasons and then it was all over. He should have been in a few episodes or seasons ago. Get rid of Kyle's Vegas Trip  and Mandy's tax episodes and had this season end with the wedding with Kristin either going through with it or not. If LMS does come back for season 5. Will the wedding have happened over the summer? Where is Kyle? Eve is graduating from high school next year, so is she going military or not? Too much of a mucky season 4.

Edited by readster

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 The show finally reached a deal for a 5th season. I figured, since after this season it will make the syndication schedule as a result. However, there is going to be a change in executive producers. Hopefully, the change will mean episodes need to have conclusions. Because from the way this season ended, we will either have Ryan and Kristin now married or not. 

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Oh, gag, why?  The first season was OK, but the ones after that, with newKristin, newBoyd, etc. were pretty awful most of the time.  

Sad that this one got renewed and Cristela didn't.

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I agree and they want to try out yet another new series as a result. LMS hasn't had a series last past season 1 while their ratings have dropped each season even though season 2 was a big drop due to the cast change with Kristin/Boyd/Ryan and changing it from Tuesday to Friday nights (still a very stupid decision). Many critics have said though it came down to money most likely. The show returns around October, goes straight into sweeps, celebrates 100 episodes, syndication money comes in and then Tim Allen still works with Disney for Toy Story 4 or related films. Season 3 was such a great improvement over season 2 by cutting down screen time with the NU cast but then here this season several episodes have no conclusion. They just finish with everything in the air such as: anti-vaccine, the wedding, Eve's friend, Mandy's business, Kyle being a doormat. Or the story lines come from out of nowhere and look like a good set up but then they just abandon them because they can't right it such as: Ed's girlfriend's miscarriage, Eve's sports and feeling she hates having to fill in the boy role in the family, Vanessa quitting her job to be a teacher saying it was "her dream" because Ryan had to be a moron. Add in Ryan being a bigger idiot, Boyd can't act, NuKristin is an even bigger idiot who is better showing off her boobs than having a story line. Mandy and Kyle get dumber and dumber by the episode. Add in Mike's constant political views that would have gotten him arrested. The neighbors border line racial or people destroying the Baxter's property and they get blamed for it. 

  Season 5 is going to be be an uphill watch this year. 

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Mike has returned from being on a fantastic two-month road trip traveling to far-flung places for Outdoor Man. It's great to be back with his wife, Vanessa, and their three daughters, but finds a lot has been going on at home as well as on the job since he's been away. To top it all off, a tornado is headed toward the Outdoor Man store and the Baxter home.

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That was pretty funny but I knew that Ed would have his girlfriend leave him (of course she is on another show now). Same goes with the more reduction of Ryan as he is busy filming a movie. It was funny for the most part and I understood Vanessa's point perfectly. She is going to wake up one day and her girls are gone and Mike will possibly be on the road again more since he won't have much to do at home until retirement. Of course, since they went to such extremes to get Vanessa out of her job to be an "inner city" school science teacher. Now, it seems the new show runners don't know what to do with everything. I love the fact that after so much hype to get Kristin and Ryan married so Boyd would have his happily little family. Now, they barely want to use them since general audience members don't like either characters. I say ship Kristin off then, they did it on Home Improvement with Randy of course that was more on the actors part than the show's. Tim, please shave, you can't do the beard.

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Amidst the mass chaos of picking up Ryan from school, Mike asks a reluctant Ryan to let Boyd walk home unsupervised. Meanwhile, Ed and Kyle hold a "Doomsday Preppers" meeting, and Eve and Mandy try to keep a secret from Vanessa.

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Even with new writers, Ryan continues to be one of the most whiniest and worst characters on TV. I worry about my son too at times but not to this point, I agree though they were saying that the news has gone into manipulative broadcasting instead of worrying about reporting the news these days. Do they not know what to do with Vanessa anymore? They don't talk about her job, saying how she is: "uncool" and her daughters keep thinking they have to tip toe around her fragile ego. I mean please.

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Isn't Ryan supposed to be an environmentalist? You'd think he'd be in favor of kids walking to school instead of being driven.

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Isn't Ryan supposed to be an environmentalist? You'd think he'd be in favor of kids walking to school instead of being driven.

We've seen the last couple of years that LMS changes characters around to fit the plots for the show. Ryan freaking out and admitting the news is propaganda more these days rang true. However, his entire: "Can't walk home, Boyd will be kidnapped." Had me rolling my eyes. Of course we know this is a lead up to politics coming up because upcoming episodes have Mike going at Hillary later this season and the Board of Education as stated in an interview for Time Allen: "Has been screwed up since Mr. Peanut took over." The ratings are good but slipping each season, with the 100 episode mark coming in November, I think this will be the last season for the show. 

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Vanessa tries to educate Eve on why she should be more on board with having a woman president. Meanwhile, after Ed mentions to Mike that he hasn't seen his own daughter for years, Mike and Mandy try to figure out what they have in common.

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When Mike blames the public school system for suspending his grandson Boyd from public school, he tells Ryan they should start looking at private schools. Meanwhile, Kristin and Kyle try to capture a raccoon loose in the Outdoor Man restaurant, and Mandy doesn't want Eve to take photos of her for a class assignment.

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I seriously wish Nancy Travis would tell the producers either to do something good with her character or she'll leave the show. Wow! Vanessa voting for Hilary because she is a woman and thinking Chuck did Obama because he's black. I really am tired of Disney letting Tim Allen have this political view needed for LMS. The show has really lost what made it good. No one came off as relatable. Eve is like: "Hey, who cares about anything, things have been done." Mike has been purposely losing to Mandy all these years? Seriously? Now, Mike and Ed are co-owners of Outdoor Man? When did this happen? LMS has really fallen so far and I read that the Hilary bashing will continuing. Its like saying: "I'm not voting for so and so because they are in that political party but I don't want the person who might be in my candidate in office." So, once again we have Kristin without Ryan or Boyd. Then we have Ryan and Boyd together and not with Kristin? You trying to tell us something writers?

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I agree.  It did make it look like Vanessa couldn't read up on issues.  "Oh she is a woman?  Yeah, I will vote for her and so should my daughters."

 

I thought there was another episode with Ed's daughter in it?

 

Mandy is getting on my last nerve.

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I agree.  It did make it look like Vanessa couldn't read up on issues.  "Oh she is a woman?  Yeah, I will vote for her and so should my daughters."

 

I thought there was another episode with Ed's daughter in it?

 

Mandy is getting on my last nerve.

 

 Ed has 5 daughters, we know two of them are on not so good speaking terms. I feel like they don't know what to do with Mandy and Kyle at times similar to how they are writing: Kristin/Ryan/Boyd. The last two Ryan/Boyd focused plots it was just them, hello Kristin is the mom and should say something on the matter. They did this big push the last two years for them to be this Big Happy Family and they are never together as a family. Its either just Kristin hanging with her family or with Ed at the restaurant or Ryan thinking of yet another stupid thing to do with Boyd and Mike has to step in. The new show runners are just spinning in circles after three episodes. Vanessa is such an idiot now its embarrassing. Mike is angry over things, he really just can't change. Ryan should be hauled off for child endangerment. Mandy and Kyle have no braincells between them. Eve has not only become meaner not caring what others think outside her father but I could see the side of the house being knocked in and she just sit in the chair going: "That's why insurance companies shouldn't rule us." Ed is about the only thing good about the show now.

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I like how out of touch they were on how private schools work. "Boyd will get individual attention he needs." Yes, its called IEP because nothing suggests that Boyd is too intelligent. Private schools don't have regular programs set up unless its a gifted program, they work like public with probably less trouble makers and a few other things. However, they function like a regular school with dress code and you pay higher in tuition. I wanted to laugh at Kristin when she asked what she was doing at the restaurant. I wanted to go: "Being a plot contrivance!" Of course LMS doesn't seem to understand public education too, first of all Vanessa would not have a mandatory meeting at night a few hours after school ended. It would have happened directly after school was over for the day. Admin and even the board like to go home at night and relax. They want to get things finished and done with and go home, plus they never really clarified what Vanessa had to do. Sounded like three teachers were going to go on maternity leave and she had to fit those spots. Umm... that's not how that happens, a permeant sub is usually found until the time those teachers work. It isn't the 60s-70s where if a teacher was pregnant they had to quit their job and they had to hire a new teacher. 

  Trust me, to be a teacher these days you have to jump through so many hoops for the state by laws from people who have never taught in a classroom because they think: "It will make better teachers." That's why the educational system is so screwed up, not by what president is in office but people in state offices who think they know what is the perfect way to run a school and then have no idea how to do it but they are in charge so they do it. No one is in infallible whether they are republican or democratic or liberal. I'm tired of Tim Allen acting like the Republican party is completely perfect. 

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. Sounded like three teachers were going to go on maternity leave and she had to fit those spots. Umm... that's not how that happens, a permeant sub is usually found until the time those teachers work. It isn't the 60s-70s where if a teacher was pregnant they had to quit their job and they had to hire a new teacher. 

 

I am pretty sure the joke, if you can call it that, was that 3 students were on maternity leave.

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readster, I just want to compliment you on your devotion to this show.  It doesn't deserve your (Kel's, webruce's, a few others here or my) loyalty!

 

I think the pregnancies were her students not teachers.  That students are pregnant was the joke.  Or, what Kel Varnsen said.

 

In one episode, suddenly, Vanessa is frustrated being a teacher and the "bureaucracy" of teaching.  So idiotic.

 

This show doesn't know what it wants to do or be about.  Just seems to want to criticize things in a strawman fashion.  All characters are idiotic or uninteresting save for Mike and usually Eve.  There is no continuity in storytelling.  A new "issue" each week is brought up and then forgotten.  What is the point and where is the humor?

 

Hate Ryan, Boyd, and Kristin with a passion.   Actively annoyed when I see Ryan and especially Boyd.  That kid is awful and just bugs.  Hate episodes revolving around Boyd.  I don't care about raising Boyd.  Ryan is a wet blanket to humor.  Alexandra Krosney was better in every possible way to Amanda Fuller.  That threesome are a black hole to consistency, interest, and comedy.

 

I only watch because I liked season one so much.  Hasn't been good since then.  I usually dislike the episodes.  I should stop watching but I keep coming back for more mediocre pointlessness.

Edited by Bazinga
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This show doesn't know what it wants to do or be about.  Just seems to want to criticize things in a strawman fashion.  All characters are idiotic or uninteresting save for Mike and usually Eve.  There is no continuity in storytelling.  A new "issue" each week is brought up and then forgotten.  What is the point and where is the humor?

 

 That's the real frustration, it doesn't know what it wants to be anymore. The show originally was about a man deal with his life with his wife and daughters and the angsts in life the followed. Then in season 2 it decided it needed to get political and deal with a man returning after running out on his family (Ryan). Then it became as you put it, the strawman fashion of political talk. I see hints of the show when it leaves the political crap out of an episode or doesn't focus on Ryan/Kristin/Boyd stupidity. Those are the better episodes and yes when there are focuses on Ed. This was the first episode that Ryan/Kristin actually kind of dealt with Boyd together. Previous episodes it was Ryan was being an idiot about Boyd or Boyd did something and only Ryan had to deal with the problem. Kristin might have been in those episodes but there was no interaction or talk about what had just happened. What's the problem now is, that Mike has the solution to everything in less than 2 seconds and then everyone fights with him on the decision. Here with private vs. public, it was completely hacked eye. Now, if they would have gone saying there were two private schools that have individual set ups for Boyd then ok. Instead they made it sound like all private schools are like that and the fact that Boyd is directly calling his teacher "boring" in the middle of class. Sorry, that isn't a kid bored, that is a kid who has no discipline but these days its not the kid's fault its the teacher, right? 

  The real problem is with Vanessa, now she can't deal with the bureaucracy of the school now. I really rolled my eyes when she talked about how she used to be a VP of an energy company and so forth. Yeah, you were until your moron of a son-in-law decided to dress your grandson as a lump of coal and made his grandmother feel she was destroying the environment. Or let's not forget the classmate of Eve who also said the same thing even though the classmate had no evidence for it and was on their own agenda. But of course if your dad tells you and a classmate says it, it must be true and Vanessa instead of standing her ground decides to quit. I also want to roll my eyes on how this school works. Meetings like how Vanessa wanted to drink herself stupid or changes they want to make don't work that fast and happen during formal assessment and after school. Not a few hours after work, not: "Get in here now, or else." Now, if they are going to homeschool Boyd, that means we will have to see more of him on TV. Hello LMS, no one cares about Boyd and the kid isn't a good actor and you always write him as a spaz. 

Edited by readster
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I've merged the individual episode threads into a Season 5 Discussion thread since there haven't been a lot of posts in the individual threads.

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Wow, look what happens when you don't have any Ryan or Boyd, Kristin is only on TV for 5 minutes and you just keep the political jokes to a quick punch line. See, then you have a funny episode and no one looks like a moron. In fact, it was such a nice change of pace to see Eve having fun and being excited to go to the concert. Usually she is: "I hate everything, give me a gun, I'm going into the military and being a republican and everyone else is stupid." Here, she was being a normal teen girl. I also like how Vanessa revealed she was more like Mandy in the party sense and sees that she has grown up and realizes she might have been too strict. As for the garage pit, well here is the thing, they started being a problem because if they weren't open pits, people tended to... die. Those who built them before there were so many problems can still legally have them. They do need a permit for them, but I get it both Tim Allen and Jay Leno had to take a shot at the president because remember, Tim Allen hates him and all democrats. However, this was an actually enjoyable show but really, enough with stupider than dirt Kyle. Its not funny, he looks like he is one step away from being killed by an ant.

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That was surprisingly a really enjoyable Halloween episode. I thought Kyle as Ed was the best, those scenes were great. No Ryan or Boyd and Kristin was in it for 5 minutes. At this point, they should just write them out, because they add nothing to the show and the episodes are better without them. I also liked Vanessa a lot in this episode, except for her still doing her entire: "Chuck should have rhythm because he's black" comment and Mike giving the Masters degree away, the rest was pretty funny. However, Mike and Chuck turning into the old guys who want to watch TV and forget everything else, that I we don't need. The Toy Story jokes were great though.

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When the show just goes for humor and drops the politics and debating how to raise Boyd, it is actually enjoyable.  The past two episodes were funny.  Nobody tunes into Last Man Standing for biting political debate or incite into raising a child, so why do they keep going there for stories?

 

Great, though unexpected, that the Halloween episode was sans Boyd.  Yes, dropping him and his wet blanket dad totally would be a great idea.  Kristin adds nothing but is necessary as the daughter unless the whole family decides to move to Canada.

Edited by Bazinga
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I completely agree. The show was not introduced to be anything about politics or raising Boyd. Yes, Kristin as a single mother was a plot point but the show was about a guy who dealt with life and his house full of women. Then they decided: "We are going to be like Archie Bunker and deal with politics" that's where it started going down hill. Plus, the recasting of Kristin, Amanda Fuller was not a good choice. She is fine in drama but not comedy same goes for the actor who plays Ryan. I've seen him in other shows and TV movies and he's fine there. Here as the wet blanket, hippy former deserting dad. It doesn't work. I would like to see a final end game for Mandy and Kyle though. They have been together for almost three years. Either promote Kyle, get them engage or move on. I've also liked the last two episodes with Eve actually having fun. Going to a concert, going to the gun range but then joining up with friends later. Like last season when she decided to throw a party while her parents were away. It was so much better than Eve: "I'm like my dad, wish I was secretly a boy and pick on all my sisters and my nephew and tell my mom I don't care."

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What's even more funny is the show is having its highest ratings in two years and they have shown its the episodes that don't have Ryan and Boyd in it. In fact, the episodes that do focus on Boyd and Ryan are the lowest because people tune out for those episodes. If LMS continues with these ratings, it will get a six season most likely but we know that once you start passing 100 episodes (February). Salaries and expenses for the show go up. If Tim Allen and crew are smart, they should write Kristin, Ryan and Boyd out. Focus more on Chuck and Denise and their son because its pretty obvious the writers are realizing that when they "have to" write Kristin, Ryan and Boyd has the main story. No one wants to watch the show, plus you would think after four years of recasting all of the parts, that the cast would have better chemistry or stories together and they don't. Sorry, LMS, but if you want to last, I think you know what you have to do but if you get rid of K,R and B, then Tim Allen can't do his political stories.

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Readster, you should be the showrunner. 

 

I would think Erika Alexander would have a higher salary based on her experience and name recognition then K, R, B.  Is EA a regular or just a guest?

 

I would love to lose the K, R, B characters.  For political talk can use Carol and Chuck as the political sparring partners for TA.  Ryan is just a dope and his beliefs are presented as stupid.  Mike Stivic was presented as mostly correct, though hypocritical at times.  Though, I really don't want this show to be "topical" and political in the first place. 

 

The family, I thought, had great chemistry season one.  The sisters seemed like sisters who loved and hated each other.  Here they just seem to hate each other and have no real relationships and limited interactions.  None of the female characters have more than skeletal storylines anyway.  Eve-military, dad's favorite and his mini-me.  Kristin-Boyd's mom, Ryan's wife and booster, runs an uninteresting restaurant in a pointless storyline.  Mandy-clothing line mostly failing, Kyle's girlfriend, stupid sometimes but not always.  Vanessa-teaching, growing dissatisfaction with her marriage, drinks.  Kyle is just comic relief, as is Ed, mostly. 

 

I can't see that this show would do well in syndication.  Does anybody care enough to watch this in reruns with so many other options out there?  I DVRd the whole season one when it was marathoned, and wouldn't care to watch the rest.

Edited by Bazinga

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Well thanks. After they recast the role of Kristin, Ryan and Boyd in season 2 and Tim Allen wanted to go more "All in the Family" as he put it and the time change from winning its slot on Tuesday to Friday nights. LMS was lucky it made it to season 3 and the ratings stabilized. However, they also got it into their heads that Kristin, Ryan and Boyd had to be this "big happy family". Getting them back together in season 2, and then engaged in season 3 and then the "non-wedding" we never saw in season 4. The problem also with the three they have to constantly rewrite the characters history to make their stories work. Ryan comes up with some extremely stupid thought process and Kristin supports him and Mike gets up in arms over how stupid it is. Then they reach some dumbass compromise and then wash, rinse, repeal for the last four years. The entire changing Ryan's family to make his dad a moron, his mom aloof and then some how magically being from Canada and living in Colorado long enough for Kristin to get knocked up, never made sense and still doesn't to this day. Can I see someone like Ryan getting scared and not supporting Kristin. Sure, but to magically backpack in South America on his dad's money (whom he apparently has hated for years). His Save the Earth mentality and other stupid atheist, liberal thought process. How did him and Kristin ever get together to begin with? They come off as more as two high school kids that got drunk at a party and hooked up once and got Boyd as result. Which then would make sense and not a school couple who weren't thinking and oops, baby. 

  Plus, Boyd comes off as just being less intelligent than his parents. Calling his teacher boring constantly in the middle of class. ADHD that no one wants to get a handle on. Apparently never getting immunity shots (Ryan either, which made even less sense). Kristin constantly saying how special he is and wants to be a doctor and now has forgotten that career to run a restaurant for her dad after she said she wanted to have a "real career". Then again having Kristin being in pre-med but anti vaccine because of hearing stuff from celebrities? That made even less sense, especially when it was constantly shown that Mike and Vanessa were helping Kristin constantly with Boyd. Of course if they decided to write the trio out then the writers would have to think of better story lines with Vanessa. Which they rather her want to vote for a woman president because she's a woman. Keeps thinking she is stuck in the 70s/80s on how african-american people should be. Leaves an over 75K job to be a school teacher because her son-in-law convinced her only grandson that she was destroying the Earth that was influenced by Eve's classmate a season before. They rather have Vanessa drinking and complaining about things because its easy to write it. Meanwhile, hey look, Trump wants to be president, Tim Allen might be large republican but he doesn't want that but the jokes will be: "He doesn't represent our best interests." "What's the best interests, dad?" "Not his." (Insert laugh track). LMS is very straw-man political talk, it wants to constantly complain about what is wrong with the president, school system or America in general but because its being ran by democrats but never gives why republican is better only because its not "them". Making  quick pot shot at a political figure, sure we get it. However, when you constantly blame one person for something, including the weather, it makes you come off as a moron but sadly many people believe that too, but never give a straight forward answer how to fix it. Just: "Its Obama's fault." or "Its the government's fault." "Or its that alderman's fault." Where you want to go: "Yes, because they were in office when it happen, but weren't but hey, they aren't fixing it now, so its all their fault." 

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All the plots you pointed out are one episode crises never to be brought up again. 

 

Why did Ryan have to be from Canada in the first place?  To make pacifist Canadian jokes?  Was Ryan from Canada season 1 or was it retconned?  Makes no sense in how he and Kristin hooked up.  

 

The overarching problem with the show is that it has no reason for being.  The original premise was manly guy in a house of women trying to deal with life, with some remnants of a distaff Home Improvement thrown in.  Not groundbreaking or earth shattering but these non-political stories were likeable and funny with consistent characterizations.  Some reason Tim Allen thought this generation needed an Archie Bunker, but the show can't be as politcially incorrect as All In The Family in our present day environment, so his political shots at dems are mild, one-sided and not even preaching to the choir, because they are so lame.  Just saying "Obama's fault" is not an actual joke.  The political opposition represented by Ryan is weak in that he is presented as an idiot with stupid opinions and ideas.   The character has to matter, to be likeable, to be interesting for his points to land.  Ryan, as played by Jordan Masterson, is none of those things.  That brings us to my issue number three (one being no consistency or follow-though with characters or stories; two being the politiclization of the show), the actors brought in to play Ryan, Kristin and Boyd are not funny or particularly good or likeable.  Boyd is awful as an actor and character-not cute, funny or talented.   Same for Amanda Fuller, really.  Four would be arguing about how to raise Boyd.  Don't care and none of it leads anywhere but setting up political debates as straw men. 

 

To follow-up on the above: The show wants to be relevant but it is not a groundbreaking political show, so why keep on with weak political or arguing about raising Boyd stories?  As we have seen, these last two non-political, non Ryan/Boyd, with little Kristin episodes are funnier.  But the rest of the cast has no roles in most of that save for Vanessa being TA's straight woman and hinting at the coming storm of a marriage breaking up due to unhappiness, unfulfillment and dissatisfaction. 

 

As for no follow-through with stories.  Last episode of last season was totally out of the blue devoted to Ryan's dad, sidelining the main cast for what purpose going forward?  No continuity in any story.  Kristin's boss liked her but that went nowhere, as Kristin needs to be with Ryan with no resentment or mention of past history.  Only mentioned once since season 1 that she dated Kyle.  Things are brought up and dropped.  Eve's football?  Boyfriend situation?  That girl who liked her a bit too much?  Where are we on any of that?  Blanca is there and then not.  Dog is there and then not.  Weren't Carol and Chuck having marital difficulties?  So many more examples to choose from.  Vanessa is an adrift character.  Kristin is pointless save for being Ryan's backup in arguments.  Mandy and Eve, so funny season 1, are not very funny beyond a one-liner here and there and have little to do but chime in with comments on storylines involving others.    Kyle has regressed in intelligence and as a character.

 

I watch weekly and am not really hate-watching, more disappointed-watching, waiting for the show to return to what I liked about it knowing that it wont and really can't. 

Edited by Bazinga

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Why did Ryan have to be from Canada in the first place?  To make pacifist Canadian jokes?  Was Ryan from Canada season 1 or was it retconned?  Makes no sense in how he and Kristin hooked up in the first place.

I really think that is why they did it, plus the various Canada jokes they made after the reveal. However, it was never established in season 1 when Nick Jonas was playing Ryan. In fact, Ryan apparently had started working for a theatre company and realized he had made a mistake running out in them. Then in season 2, he was a truck driver who found everything wrong in the world. 

 

 

The actors brought in to play Ryan, Kristin and Boyd are not funny or particularly good or likeable.  Boyd is awful as an actor and character-not cute, funny or talented.   Same for Amanda Fuller, really.  Four would be arguing about how to raise Boyd.  Don't care and none of it leads anywhere but setting up political debates as straw men.

That is so true, they aren't funny, they can't make it work either. In fact, Masterson is told to have the beard during the filming of the show because Ryan is suppose to be "a hippy". End of season 2, he was in the middle of filming a movie and couldn't have the beard, and other work he does, he doesn't have it. Fuller isn't funny at all, she tries and why she thought she could after being on various drama TV series is beyond me. As for Boyd, most likely  they thought he was cute and would be a natural and yet their best stories are having him getting in trouble at school or having Ryan or Mike flip out about something because Boyd is "special". 

 

 

No continuity in any story.  Kristin's boss liked her but that went nowhere, as Kristin needs to be with Ryan with no resentment or mention of past history.  Only mentioned once since season 1 that she dated Kyle.  Things are brought up and dropped.  Eve's football?

Completely agree, everything is thrown in and then never mentioned again. Same with Ed getting his girlfriend pregnant, they followed it up but after the reveal that she miscarried and then broke up a few episodes later. It was never head of again. Eve had some of the worst character development in seasons 2-3. She wanted to be a boy and do things boys do. She had these invisible boyfriends or guys who wanted to change her for 1 episode. Don't get me started on her picking and almost bullying Boyd is season 2. Holy, DCFS would have been all over the Baxter house. She was supposed to be 15 with a 7 year old nephew, not 10 and attacking her little brother. This season has been the best for Eve, she wants to have fun, doesn't have to always be "a boy" and has interesting stories. Of course it revolves around her wanting to go to the military and the shooting range which has been consistent since season 2. 

 

 

Weren't Carol and Chuck having marital difficulties?

 

Carol and Chuck have really been all over the place. In season 2 when they brought them in and Vanessa felt they had to be friends and then BFFS. It was so heavy handed and if I would have been then, I would have put in a restraining order. Then you add in Chuck "retiring" from the military and being a bum but then created his own security company to have something to do again. Why did he get so upset then retiring and why did Carol just leave him alone to get an idea. Plus, they have a son, which we never knew about and then introduced last season as a possible interest for Eve, that went nowhere. So, then why did Chuck want to all of a sudden divorce Carol, if their son was still in high school and he could spend more time with him? Why did Carol just tell Vanessa to stop acting like its the 80s when talking to her and to just act like they are human and not separated by color? Their history has been as confusing as Ryan's.

 

 

 

But the rest of the cast has no roles in most of that save for Vanessa being TA's straight woman and hinting at the coming storm of a marriage breaking up due to unhappiness, unfulfillment and dissatisfaction.

Vanessa's character has been an utter mess since season 2. Mostly because the writers had no idea what a geologist does for an energy company. Her going into the school world has now turned into her wanting to drink herself stupid because she can't handle the politics of the school system and its all Obama's fault according to Mike. However, I do feel for her, Mike wants to be a grumpy old man at home. He is never happy anymore, I keep thinking he is going to kill Kyle at times. He apparently doesn't care about his job anymore, he wants to constantly tell Ryan how badly he is raising Boyd, yet his ideas for raising Boyd right are sometimes worse. I'm waiting for Vanessa to turn into a drunk and Mike to be on his front porch with a shotgun threatening to shoot if anyone walks by.

 

 

Tim Allen thought this generation needed an Archie Bunker, but the show can't be as politically incorrect as All In The Family in our present day environment, so his political shots at dems are mild, one-sided and not even preaching to the choir, because they are so lame.

 

That's what really makes no sense. All in the Family, Sanford and Son and other "edgy" shows like them had their points in the 70s and early 80s. However, now that thought process doesn't work, shows try it but they try to fill a specific audience or an area that it works for material. LMS comes off as too one-sided and like a bad stand up show. In the last four years they have gone with this approach, the stories don't work and the ratings have reflected it. When they don't use Ryan, Kristin, Boyd and just do a quick joke on it, the episodes are more funny and enjoyable and show hints of the original premise of the show. When they go all political, people get tired of it and tune out. My wife who is raised in a very heavy republican family finds the jokes too one-sided and even when I have told her she says its the democrats fault. She later goes, sorry, I'm just too use to being like that because that's how I was raised. If anything LMS should address that we are instilled to hate a specific party or person from the get go and never look at the cold hard facts. Its like how Tim Allen doesn't want Trump as president even though he is republican but still goes: "But the republican party is the savor of the country." You can't have it both ways. 

 

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We wouldn't be watching LMS if we weren't fans or we didn't come in loving it. We are pointing out of what has really hurt the show the last few years or what are the weakest areas of it. If you look back, we do enjoy many episodes of it. I mean right now, one show I loved to death that has fallen is Castle and I can't even watch it and if it came to the point that LMS did what they have done with that show, I would stop watching. Jordan Masterson who plays Ryan last movie was: Bad Roomies. He was on the Family Channel series, Greek, which was great in. Of course, that was more drama than comedy. Joley Fisher has been in several TV and films in the last two years. 

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Wow! A use for Boyd that actually made sense and no Ryan. I liked it, I did have a problem with Ed just telling Mike to forget his 30th anniversary weekend and do his job. I get it was a story plot but Ed has at time praised Mike and Vanessa for being together as long as they have. Especially, since he has been married 5 times. Oh well. Speaking of which, I see the writers didn't want to deal with the main root of Ed and Holly being the miscarriage of their son. I figured they wouldn't want to go there, since it was more of drama and we know the writers aren't comfortable with them. As for Kristin, so they have completely dropped her wanting to be a doctor to be a restaurant owner. Oh well, they never really had any heart invested in the story anyhow. We rarely saw Kristin doing homework, she never talked about labs, was anti-vaccine and other things that doctors do. I could have lived with her deciding to change to nursing school or practicer, but oh well. One politic joke but I see it was the talk about people being lazy and doing nothing. I've heard that joke with democrat, republican and liberal for years. 

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Two episodes in a row that were funny and so few political jokes, no Ryan or Body, we are on a roll here. I have no problem with believing this girl could be Eve's friend but to be a best friend? That was a little too much disbelief. We have never seen her and she is such an opposite of Eve it was almost too much. However, what I did like was Eve was fun this episode and has been in the previous two, she was acting like a girl of 17 almost 18. Eve can be a fun character when they allow her not to be mini Mike. I had no problem with her tomboy status over the course of the show but it got to be too much. Her wanting to shoot guns, being so spiteful and mean to Boyd in season 2 and three. Her downright belittling of Mandy, Kristin and at times, Vanessa. It was too much and if it was my daughter I would have had a few choice words for her. I also liked that Mike was more upset because he knows that Eve is going into the military and will be gone in a little over 6 months. That shows a father wanting to spend time with the last of his girls because he knows she is going to be out of the house for a longer period of time. Not like Mandy who is stuck in the basement or Kristen who he sees everyday at work. That is something I did enjoy about the show and much better than bitter old man Mike we've seen since the show began.

  I do wish they would stop with Vanessa being so stupid about race. I mean her line about a "Black Sydney Poite" I was like: "Oh come on, that was so forced and how long has she known the Parkers?" I hated everything with Kristin, I still feel she is one of the weakest pieces of the show outside of Ryan and Boyd. Ever since Amanda Fuller has been in the role, you can't get behind her in the part. Kris has been written to be: "Poor me, life is so hard." Not the one who was trying to get her life back on track despite being knocked down in season 1 that Alex Krosney, played so well. I'm sorry but her telling Mandy she was tired of her just breezing through in life was too much. She has been handed a good job not once but twice by an old friend and then her father and Ed. She took Ryan back in almost no time, she has done very stupid decisions with Boyd and yet everyone is: "Oh poor, Kristen, here have some money." I have officially come to the conclusion that the writers know that Kris can't be pulled off as either funny or sympathetic by Fuller, but she doesn't complain about her part or her lines to the TPTB so they keep her and have tried to force the writing to like her. Much like with Mike's political talk that is out of place and destroys the episodes that focus on it. So, they feel this is the lesser of two evils. I have enjoyed this season much more than last season, but the facts remain. Kristin, Ryan and Boyd are the weakest parts of the show and I think the producers are seeing that now. They just don't want to loose the sister dynamic of the show even though Fuller with Ephram and Dever and doesn't pull it off like Krosney did. They know that Ryan and Boyd are hated by the fans and that the kid playing Boyd can't act and that Jordan Masterson is apparently doing a movie right now so he isn't in these episodes. The show is hitting 100 in February and the way ABC has no real hits this year, I could see them going a sixth season on it, especially if the ratings keep steady. However, if they do go with a sixth season they are going to have to figure out a way to keep Eve on the show because if they think Fuller is going to work with Ephram on a regular basis and try to put Ryan more front and center or magically bring in a "Cousin Oliver" to fill Dever's role, then the show is going to plunge off a cliff fast.

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Ever since Amanda Fuller has been in the role, you can't get behind her in the part. Kris has been written to be: "Poor me, life is so hard." Not the one who was trying to get her life back on track despite being knocked down in season 1 that Alex Krosney, played so well. I'm sorry but her telling Mandy she was tired of her just breezing through in life was too much. She has been handed a good job not once but twice by an old friend and then her father and Ed. She took Ryan back in almost no time, she has done very stupid decisions with Boyd and yet everyone is: "Oh poor, Kristen, here have some money." I have officially come to the conclusion that the writers know that Kris can't be pulled off as either funny or sympathetic by Fuller, but she doesn't complain about her part or her lines to the TPTB so they keep her and have tried to force the writing to like her. Much like with Mike's political talk that is out of place and destroys the episodes that focus on it. So, they feel this is the lesser of two evils. I have enjoyed this season much more than last season, but the facts remain. Kristin, Ryan and Boyd are the weakest parts of the show and I think the producers are seeing that now. They just don't want to loose the sister dynamic of the show even though Fuller with Ephram and Dever and doesn't pull it off like Krosney did. They know that Ryan and Boyd are hated by the fans and that the kid playing Boyd can't act and that Jordan Masterson is apparently doing a movie right now so he isn't in these episodes.

Amen!  Couldn't agree more with your analysis.

 

This show has never figured out what it is about or what it wants to be.  A family sitcom?  A political one?  The show gets decent Friday night ratings but nobody really cares enough about it for anything that happens to matter.  Season 1 dynamic was better then what it became but I doubt the ratings reflected that and are skewed by the night change anyway.  The show worked best when it is not issue oriented but a simple loving family with characters who were likeable, funny, seemed to like and relate to each other.  Sorry to tell the producers but Alexandra Krosney was necessary and not replaceable for the above to work.  Without her and the shift in tone, none of this show works but again I doubt anybody really cares. 

 

Can't see this show doing well in syndication as it is not that funny, not joke-centric enough to be fun to watch, the topical political humor will become more dated with time, the cast chemistry is not great with few likeable/relateable characters, and not that interesting a show.  So many better choices I can't see this doing well no matter how many seasons are produced.  Given that Home Improvement was such a ratings juggernaut and it doesn't seem to do well in syndication, I hold little hope for LMS doing well.  As an example of the disinterest: A new episode of LMS gets one comment by Readster as compared to pages about The Big Bang Theory (I know not really a fair/even comparison) or The Middle.  This is just a who cares? show filling up the schedule and would be invisible in syndication.

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Sorry to tell the producers but Alexandra Krosney was necessary and not replaceable for the above to work.  Without her and the shift in tone, none of this show works but again I doubt anybody really cares.

From I also understand, Fuller didn't help matters, she has been talked about and even said she likes things a certain way on projects. She was removed from iZombie after the pilot and apparently was going to be in Grandfathered but that didn't work out either. She has worked, but it does seem she isn't the easiest to work with. Not like she is alone on that, but almost everyone has said, they were going to replace her no matter what because they didn't see her fitting good with Masterson and aging Boyd made it look like she was too young. Plus, we do know from season 2 that they admitted having baby Boyd wasn't working because of time getting the twins away from the show, Dexter (They were his son) and waiting for them to cooperate with the cast and crew was getting tiresome. So, when they felt that doing this would change dynamics, Tim Allen decided to insert his ideas to be more Archie Bunker and they ran with it. Plus, we know there are critics and fans of the show like the political tripe of the show, but do agree it will become dated at some point (now). I do feel alone half the time, like I'm the only one watching the show, but hey outside getting my streaming of Jessica Jones in the next week. Not much to watch on TV right now, I don't have cable, I stream and use attenna and I'm a graduate student. I have to make time for the family and only can watch so much TV. 

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This is the first time in a long time, where Ryan wasn't depicted as too much of the moron or Boyd showing his ADHD. I actually enjoyed it, even Mike's conversation about Ryan being passion about coaching and yelling because he wanted too. There is a big difference, however him being a vegan who knits, and Kristin calling: "sweet" I want to go: "huh?" Can I believe that Ryan had some wake up call after his back packing through South America. Sure, but it comes down that the Ryan who left his pregnant girlfriend to fend for herself and the Ryan we have now are completely different people. I can't believe now that Ryan would have been the run out because now he is so obsessed about not being his father (who is now dead) it makes Ryan come across as if he was replaced by a good version of the deserter. Of course, I'm also wondering if the writers have decided to use Masterson's time off for his film to start reworking the character more since everyone hates the character and Boyd. I also loved the use of Vanessa here too, see, there is a person I can believe has a PhD in Geology and knows science. Not the socially inept, I have to show I like black people we have had the last couple years. And on that note, Chuck, what happened to you and hey writers: "STOP WITH THE BLACK JOKES!" they aren't funny they make Chuck, Vanessa and Tim look like they fell out of the early 70s. Its almost 2016. Get over the Archie Bunker theme you want so much, Tim Allen. There is no audience for it these days.

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A better episode but Ryan being so against the Nativity Scene and Kyle agreeing with him. ITS A CHURCH you dumb ass! So, of course it will be Christian based. Mike should have had Mandy and Eve due the manger scene and Ryan write the letter. Sure it worked out in the end, but I can't believe Kyle went with Ryan at first, especially for him. In fact, Kyle would have been the better choice originally, but I still don't get how the tree fell over on Christmas Day. If she had sone the ornaments on just once side, ok but the episode was depicted that this was over the course of several days and Vanessa was swamped between school and the usual Christmas tradition. The jokes were spot on though, I laughed a lot but Mike's assignments were kind of not well thought out. Also, both Eve and Mandy thinking it was funny to say those things because they found everything else boring. Sure it worked out but there is Eve and Mandy being them and being out right mean. Shocking. Boyd wasn't annoying, he was like a normal kid. Shocking. 

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The fake Christmas letter was funny, but the tree falling over joke was stupid and predictable. Plus the tree had obviously been up for awhile before it was decorated, so how exactly does decorating it cause it to fall over?

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The fake Christmas letter was funny, but the tree falling over joke was stupid and predictable. Plus the tree had obviously been up for awhile before it was decorated, so how exactly does decorating it cause it to fall over?

My point exactly. The tree would have fallen a while ago if there were too many ornaments on one side. Now, Boyd or something knocking it over with a present while unwrapping, then ok. That's another thing about Ryan that irks me. He is against any focus on a major Holiday or tradition because he says it was so horrible with him growing up. Yet, he has no problem with getting presents, opening them or being handed Christmas cookies. He is such a two-faced moron.

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They should have made the tree joke completely absurd and have it burst into flames since that would have made as much sense as it falling over.

As much sense as Ryan's idea outside a church that his in-laws and yes his wife and son like to go to with a manger scene saying: "Your God here." I mean, Ryan never thinks anything through and his entire "hippy"philosophy because his dad was such a jerk and everything was miserable at Christmas or any major holiday. The man is dead now, time to move on. Of course that would be like Tim Allen not throwing in an Obama joke because those aren't old either *insert eye roll*. 

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I haven't watched this show at all this season, and really have only watched sporadically since season one (mainly because I hate all the characters and Allen's attempt to turn this show into some kind of poor man's All in the Family destroyed what could have been a pleasant Friday night sitcom) but I decided to tune in tonight. I, for one, was happy that Eve didn't get into West Point. She's so obnoxious, unlikable and downright mean, that I was happy to see something knock her down a peg. And I really don't think she would be a good fit for the military, her better than everyone else attitude wouldn't get her very far.

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This was the best episode for me in quite awhile. No political "jokes." No Ryan or Boyd. Some pathos, I really felt for Eve, she had been planning for West Point for several years now. And loved Tim Allen's delayed wall punch reaction. It felt real. It hurts when your kids hurt.

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I have to agree, this was one of the better episodes of the season. As mentioned above, I was both happy and sad that Eve didn't get into Westpoint. One, she did need to be knocked down a peg, that her mean attitude and believing like her sisters that she is entitled to everything, she needed a reality check. Second, it leaves to open the character up to go other places. She can still go into the military or the ROTC. Westpoint would have gotten her a bit farther faster, but it isn't the end of the world. Also, the show works so well when Mike and Vanessa are being parents. Not political straw man type or: "I'm have a PhD but no brain." Which they always fall back on when Ryan and Boyd are in the episodes. However, I do see it as an excuse that if they are renewed for a 6th season, it keeps Eve around for the series, which is a cop out and tired sitcom troupe.  

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I'll admit I'm not an expert, but what I found online is that graduates of West Point are typically commissioned as second lieutenants, which is the same as ROTC. I imagine West Point's prestige factors in to future advancement, but I just didn't understand Eve thinking it was the only route. I do understand devastation because it was her dream, but I'll be highly disappointed if they don't go the ROTC route.

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